Guild Wars 2

ClarkSkala.8052:

@Kaimick

I came around to agree with your no inspect option in GW2. But you must realize that a part of the Player-base does have an issue with MF, a lot of the people I’ve been in groups with and people I’ve talked to in my guild, etc, not all, but A LOT have agreed with MF being a problem that needs to be fixed. As I said up top, we need a mutual fix.

I do not disagree with the fact that MF is selfish
I don’t even disagree with the fact that a run is slower when one or multiple people have MF on. Although the fact that the time between the two is not a great factor.

I have not run into any situation in the game where MF was the cause of a bad run, mainly because of the fact it is not the gear it was the player just being a bad player. So in turn I have no issues with the MF stat.

I also understand there are players that do have an issue with magic find, although that is not the case. With a congruent player base of 400k players and say only 100k players have an issue with it, that is not enough of the player base to remove the stat. Since that is only 1/4 the player base, when 3/4 have no issues with it. Arena Net has to appease to the majority. If MF was removed I honestly wouldn’t be affected or care, i am just a player that has no issues with the stat and I do not feel the need to blame the stat for poor players ability or lack there of.

Inspection isn’t only centered on MF. It is also gear quality which many people han’t gradutaed from rare or even master for that matter. Adding inspeciton means these casual players who could care a kitten about being boss status, have to spend extra time in their character just to be “Acceptable”. It isn’t fair in game where skill exceeds stats.

Face it, this game is supposed to attract all kinds of players, so you can’t say " well just play more and you’ll get there" because for some that isn’t possible. exotic crappy looking armor may be out of reach for some so no one can be left out. Now if they release a truly challenging end-game content like perhaps “raids” or hard as kitten dungeons then those people would have to be excluded but again, those rewards would be purely cosmetic based and have nothing to do with progression in PVE. Since they’d be cosmetic only, sure make having good gear almost necessary but skill and coordination should still be the road to success.

Kaimick.5109:

I do not disagree with the fact that MF is selfish
I don’t even disagree with the fact that a run is slower when one or multiple people have MF on. Although the fact that the time between the two is not a great factor.

I have not run into any situation in the game where MF was the cause of a bad run, mainly because of the fact it is not the gear it was the player just being a bad player. So in turn I have no issues with the MF stat.

I also understand there are players that do have an issue with magic find, although that is not the case. With a congruent player base of 400k players and say only 100k players have an issue with it, that is not enough of the player base to remove the stat. Since that is only 1/4 the player base, when 3/4 have no issues with it. Arena Net has to appease to the majority. If MF was removed I honestly wouldn’t be affected or care, i am just a player that has no issues with the stat and I do not feel the need to blame the stat for poor players ability or lack there of.

where that numbers come from? sorry but you can justify this just with the usual “vocal majority VS vocal minority” thing, and using random numbers.

Is MF selfish a stat?
If yes, why a stats that lower the whole party efficiency for the sake of the droprate of one single player, have access to the party content, arent just the players playing for the same objective?

You need only these questions.

Ganzo.5079:

Kaimick.5109:

I do not disagree with the fact that MF is selfish
I don’t even disagree with the fact that a run is slower when one or multiple people have MF on. Although the fact that the time between the two is not a great factor.

I have not run into any situation in the game where MF was the cause of a bad run, mainly because of the fact it is not the gear it was the player just being a bad player. So in turn I have no issues with the MF stat.

I also understand there are players that do have an issue with magic find, although that is not the case. With a congruent player base of 400k players and say only 100k players have an issue with it, that is not enough of the player base to remove the stat. Since that is only 1/4 the player base, when 3/4 have no issues with it. Arena Net has to appease to the majority. If MF was removed I honestly wouldn’t be affected or care, i am just a player that has no issues with the stat and I do not feel the need to blame the stat for poor players ability or lack there of.

where that numbers come from? sorry but you can justify this just with the usual “vocal majority VS vocal minority” thing, and using random numbers.

Is MF selfish a stat?
If yes, why a stats that lower the whole party efficiency for the sake of the droprate of one single player, have access to the party content, arent just the players playing for the same objective?

You need only these questions.

They are not random numbers these are numbers that are produced by Arena Net them selves as far as Congruent player bases goes, the 100k was an example as I do not know the exact number of people that dis-like the stat.

I think I already answered your question about selfish stat or not, in fact I have stated it at least 4 times now. Please read carefully, better yet just read the exact post that you quoted.

Just in case you were wondering Congruent player base means the amount of player recorded that are actively playing not copies sold.

Yes, MF is a selfish stat.

Inspecting won’t change that.

It also won’t change the Prisoner’s Dilemma nature of how MF works, nor will it adjust the Nash Equilibrium.

Inspection is a solution in search of a problem, and MF has enough problems that can not be solved by it.

Ganzo.5079:

This example, mean nothing… how much time you lose just for this challenge? if the naked player was at fully potential maybe the others die less, and maybe all of you finish the dungeon in less time.

The last time I checked, this was a game and not a second job. How much time did I lose? Don’t know, don’t care. How much fun did I have running with this naked nutter? A lot.

Ganzo.5079:

I agree when you say that player skill is important, but all of you are totally wrong when you think that the MF user is skilled then the others. At parity of player skill, an MF user is a burden for the party.

Yet, as I pointed out, a player wearing no gear at all still did not bring the rest of the team down, so how does someone wearing MF do the opposite? You agree with me that it’s player skill that is important, yet you keep returning to cold hard stats to back up your anti-MF argument.

ZeroRaiNs.7154:

@uknortherner
You wrote a nice little story, but I personally don’t care for it. So, now you want to talk about skill versus magic find? I’d rather not even talk about it with you since you seem to be rude and ramble on about nothing.

After reading your other posts here, I can say pretty much the same for you. You have ignored the reasons offered and resorted to 1) tarring all MF users with the same brush, and 2) calling me rude and rambling for no apparent reason. At least Ganzo engaged with my points made rather than resorting to personal attacks.

uknortherner.2670:

Yet, as I pointed out, a player wearing no gear at all still did not bring the rest of the team down, so how does someone wearing MF do the opposite? You agree with me that it’s player skill that is important, yet you keep returning to cold hard stats to back up your anti-MF argument.

You realize that without any gear his Power, Precision, and CD are all awful, meaning he was basically doing no damage, and since his stats were awful enemies weren’t targeting him (which probably improved his survivability a lot).
So he was doing half as much damage as a P/V/T would be doing, without drawing enemy’s attention to take pressure off the group.
Yeah, he was good enough to survive, but he didn’t actually contribute that much, which drags the group down since you could’ve had someone much more useful, or he could’ve been much more useful.
Due to his (lack of) gear.

Now, of course, if he told you guys he was going to do that and you guys were fine with it, it’s fine for him to do that, but he certainly wasn’t being all that useful.

Well, it’s a fairly simple conclusion that everyone has reached – MF gear is totally and 100% selfish. It is also a fact that while someone may be “skilled” enough to survive for a decent period of time, they could be doing a lot better if they were wearing gear that actually helped.

It’s not even a matter of performance, it’s a matter of principle. If someone CHOOSES to reduce their effectiveness in the team for the sake of personal greed, I have every right to get rid of them. At 40+ on the Fractals, I like to know that people in my group actually give a rat’s behind about how the group is doing rather than put some damage in here and there and then sweep up the loot behind us when we do the dungeon as a 4-man group. Don’t even try and pretend the situation is otherwise. You’re doing nothing but extremely mediocre damage along with your base-level profession utilities and you provide no other advantage besides “staying alive”? Is that your big justification? It sounds like a huge excuse to me. Any competent group will stay alive. You’re doing what the rest of us are doing, but worse, making everyone else suffer minor to major inconvenience while you reap rewards for yourself.

If I get a whiff of MF, you’re gone. On just a matter of principle, you disgust me. It’s not that you ARE playing at a standard lower than you could be, I can deal with that. That’s perfectly normal, part of the learning process of an MMO. I enjoy playing with genuinely inexperienced people that want to improve. It’s that you CHOSE to gimp yourself for your benefit and to everyone else’s detriment. That’s the key.

If you wanna know what gear someone use be social ask them. No need for another excuse to be judgmental towards those who don’t wanna run a certain build. About the magic find agree it don’t help you’re team at all. Might even be the reason you’re party wipe.

Are you kidding me?! Inspect option is a must in a 2012 MMORPG! And all of you naysayers that cry about getting kicked in dungeons……. Go play Hello Kitty.

I don’t believe an inspect function will help this game in any way. As other posters have said, all it does is feed elitist tools to be abusive to other players.

I also don’t believe magic find should be removed,and this is my way of thinking.

This game is called Guild Wars 2, the key word being “Guild”. If you seriously don’t like magic find, and feel that it hinders your dungeon runs in some horrible way, then you should be running with guild members. That way you can state as a guild, I do not want magic find in my groups. I do not like the stat. If you want magic find, go run with the magic find group. You could easily setup a guild magic find group, and a guild non-magic find group for those who want to min-max everything, and are time limited.

There is no requirement, besides meeting the level of the dungeon, in pugs. Pugs are pugs, and by the universal unspoken MMO law, pugs are a gamble from the very beginning, and will NEVER be anything more then just that. When you agree to invite a player that you do not know, or have never had the experience to group with, or do not know their skill level. You are agreeing to them joining with whatever skill level and gear they choose to bring.

So in my humble opinion here, it is you who are being selfish. You can’t log on and join a pug, and then expect EVERYONE to do it YOUR WAY, because you dislike something that they might enjoy. That’s not how things are done. If you want it done a certain way, at a certain speed, with certain gear. Run with others who want it the same way, and the best way to do that is a Guild who has the same ideals.

TLDR: Grow a pair.

@Mordimus: Yes, pugs are a gamble.
That doesn’t mean that there should be a mechanic that explicitly rewards people for intentionally making their group do worse.
In fact, if they got rid of MF, then they could up the drop rates for everyone, and then everyone gets the better drops, and no one is encouraged by the game mechanics to gimp themselves in a group setting.

@gimmethegepgun Oh don’t get me wrong,I do believe that magic find could be changed to have its functionality be more in line with someone running other gear.

Personally I only run magic find when I’m either farming or exploring. In groups I run a Tanky/Support build which is more effective with my normal gear.

I just believe that if someone is going to PuG, its part of the gamble on what gear the person your inviting is wearing.

I’m just seeing a-lot of hostility in general towards people who use magic find, and the wrath of this hostility is placed on pugs who they pull into a group, that end up wearing MF and slowing the party down, or not performing. I don’t understand the logic on getting mad, over something that could be remedied to begin with, by running with a well organized guild group.

@Mordimus: The issue is that the game shouldn’t be presenting them with an option that has literally no value over anything else (specifically, it’s strictly worse than Berserker’s and Knight’s) except for the user, which just encourages pugs to intentionally perform worse.

@gimmethegepgun I wouldn’t say they perform worse, I would say it just takes a-lot longer to accomplish the same goal with a MF party then it would with a zerker/knights geared party.

I have a feeling the issue presented to us with magic find is time. It’s the only difference that you can point out if you take a group of normal geared players, monitor one of their dungeon/fractal runs, and then have them equip a set of magic find gear,do the same run and compare the two.

Yes the group would be losing time,because their dps would take a hit, but the content is still possible to complete by 5 people with magic find gear, even the ascended versions with agony.

So the sacrifice that these players get for using magic find is time, in which again as I originally stated, could be remedied by avoiding it and running with a group of people that all have the same goals in mind.

On the other hand, like I said on my last post, I do believe that magic find’s functionality could be improved in some manner.

But as well, as you stated, the game presented the players with a gear set that improved their chances to earn gold, at a loss in dps. Alot of people might enjoy this part of the game, and i’m assuming they do considering the amount of outcries around this topic. BUT people are directing their wrath at the players that use it, instead of manning up a little bit, and taking control of their own game play, thus avoiding the stat by not putting themselves in that situation to where it makes them upset to begin with.

Mordimus.3452:

@gimmethegepgun I wouldn’t say they perform worse, I would say it just takes a-lot longer to accomplish the same goal with a MF party then it would with a zerker/knights geared party.

I have a feeling the issue presented to us with magic find is time. It’s the only difference that you can point out if you take a group of normal geared players, monitor one of their dungeon/fractal runs, and then have them equip a set of magic find gear,do the same run and compare the two.

Yes the group would be losing time,because their dps would take a hit, but the content is still possible to complete by 5 people with magic find gear, even the ascended versions with agony.

So the sacrifice that these players get for using magic find is time, in which again as I originally stated, could be remedied by avoiding it and running with a group of people that all have the same goals in mind.

On the other hand, like I said on my last post, I do believe that magic find’s functionality could be improved in some manner.

But as well, as you stated, the game presented the players with a gear set that improved their chances to earn gold, at a loss in dps. Alot of people might enjoy this part of the game, and i’m assuming they do considering the amount of outcries around this topic. BUT people are directing their wrath at the players that use it, instead of manning up a little bit, and taking control of their own game play, thus avoiding the stat by not putting themselves in that situation to where it makes them upset to begin with.

I make to you an example,
You are at school, With your lab group, 3 of the group are working on the experiment and preparing the presentation, other 2 Help only time to time, but for the rest of the time they do something else.
Now, have i to direct my anger against the professor that let them do what they want, or vs my team mate that are doing nothing?

Because you know, i think that the 2 people that are doing barely nothing, really enjoy to earn a good mark, but they deserve it?

Now are passed more than 10 years from my last lab lesson, but when someone defend an MF user on dungeon i feel exactly on the same way.

Auesis.7301:

If I get a whiff of MF, you’re gone. On just a matter of principle, you disgust me. It’s not that you ARE playing at a standard lower than you could be, I can deal with that. That’s perfectly normal, part of the learning process of an MMO. I enjoy playing with genuinely inexperienced people that want to improve. It’s that you CHOSE to gimp yourself for your benefit and to everyone else’s detriment. That’s the key.

Yep that’s exactly why I hate MF, it’s all about choice. But this thread isn’t about MF, or is it?

May I redirect everyone to this thread instead:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/why-do-people-hate-magic-find/page/8#post1294303