Guild Wars 2

I personally don’t mind if others use Portals to complete a JP. Not everybody will be good at something, and I think it’s nice of players to help out those with lesser abilities, the same way that I would jump in and help if I saw another player getting torn apart by a Veteran or Champion.

I can see where the OP is coming from when she says that Portals “trivialise” the content (and I’m speaking here as someone who completes all the JP’s, on all of my characters, normally), although in the larger scheme of things I think it’s a minor issue. ANet’s taken steps to ensure that you can’t exploit the Aetherblade JP for financial gain, and if you still want to complete the JP normally for your own satisfaction, you can; you’re not forced to use the Portals yourself.

It’s kind of similar to Legendary Survivor back in GW1; it was an extremely difficult achievement to get, but when EotN was released, it was trivialised just by farming Kilroy’s dungeon for some hours. That didn’t negate the personal satisfaction I had as someone who earned Legendary Survivor legitimately. Nobody can take that away from me, and I honestly don’t care what somebody else thinks of my title. The same would apply if I had a Legendary weapon; I don’t care if somebody else thinks I bought my Legendary on the TP. I got it because I liked the way it looks on my character, not because I wanted to show off to others.

Ayrilana.1396:

I’ll stress my point again. Just because something doesn’t affect someone else, doesn’t mean that it is right. Once again, just because something doesn’t affect someone else, doesn’t mean that it is right…

Here is the thing…the only people who get to decide what is right and what is wrong in this game are the developers. They obviously think it is okay to portal through a JP. That means “it is right”.

Just to be clear, the only person, or people, who get to decide right and wrong in a particular universe is the creator(s) of that universe. In this case it is ANet’s development team that created the universe, so they are the only ones who have a right to say something in their universe is right or wrong. They say it is right, so it is right.

I want to hear A-net’s general opinion of this.

There was an ANet dev porting people in the JP itself the day it was released. I think that’s probably a good indication as to their stance on it.

Razor.9872:

I want to hear A-net’s general opinion of this.

They could make it so that the portals didn’t work in the JP area, but they choose to allow it. That pretty much says it all.

But there are also reports of ANet employees laying down portals to the end of JPs.

ANet also has a long history from GW1 of allowing players to help other players skip content.

MacLeod.4208:

Ayrilana.1396:

I’ll stress my point again. Just because something doesn’t affect someone else, doesn’t mean that it is right. Once again, just because something doesn’t affect someone else, doesn’t mean that it is right…

Here is the thing…the only people who get to decide what is right and what is wrong in this game are the developers. They obviously think it is okay to portal through a JP. That means “it is right”.

Just to be clear, the only person, or people, who get to decide right and wrong in a particular universe is the creator(s) of that universe. In this case it is ANet’s development team that created the universe, so they are the only ones who have a right to say something in their universe is right or wrong. They say it is right, so it is right.

Either in that same post you partially quoted or another I did say that it was ultimately up to the devs.

Ayrilana.1396:

MacLeod.4208:

Ayrilana.1396:

I’ll stress my point again. Just because something doesn’t affect someone else, doesn’t mean that it is right. Once again, just because something doesn’t affect someone else, doesn’t mean that it is right…

Here is the thing…the only people who get to decide what is right and what is wrong in this game are the developers. They obviously think it is okay to portal through a JP. That means “it is right”.

Just to be clear, the only person, or people, who get to decide right and wrong in a particular universe is the creator(s) of that universe. In this case it is ANet’s development team that created the universe, so they are the only ones who have a right to say something in their universe is right or wrong. They say it is right, so it is right.

Either in that same post you partially quoted or another I did say that it was ultimately up to the devs.

Sorry, didn’t see it. =)

Analogies don’t have to be 100% exact, I understand that. I did say somewhere in my post they had to be reasonably comparable, however. The analogy has to at least encompass the key points the situation implies. Otherwise, it’s inaccurate, and therefore, the point that comes with it is inaccurate as well.

Most situations being created here are obviously very unjust and don’t accurately represent a jumping puzzle situation, so how can I take points made by these analogies seriously?

Ayrilana.1396:

I personally have hung out at the puzzle and gave advice on how to pass certain parts as well as personally show them how. I even rez those that fall. You’re doing someone a disservice by encouraging people to take the easy way out to completing something. This can be an achievement, a goal, or whatever.

The point is that you dont see the bigger picture here, thoese who are having a great time, but simply can not play throug this because of the 5 fps. Now if they ban this, everyone who doesnt have a fps above 15 on the lowest and almost no one around cant complete this. It would be annoying for me and alot others, if they remove this. It would mean that 20% of the population of Gw2 have to almost ignore every new content if it got a JP. This is a number I got out of my head ofc, but non the less how I read everyone is playing throug.

You personally like to see if you can do it, that is amaizing you want that, but the problem is that you see it as a challange and ofc. envy/hate on thoese who use a cheat to complete this.
It would be a huge problem regarding Guild JP´s, fun JP with friends and monthly content like this if they put your idea up.

If the lag wasnt there for anyone, I would accept your idea, I like tryieng to do every JP, but somewhere in the JP there is always a major lagg, even in empty once. This means i have to press W once and wait for 2-3 secs be4 it go 1 step forward. Thats why I am happy this is up, so I can try, and still get my price, see how amaizing it looks from above, from each JP.

zengara.8301:

Ayrilana.1396:

I personally have hung out at the puzzle and gave advice on how to pass certain parts as well as personally show them how. I even rez those that fall. You’re doing someone a disservice by encouraging people to take the easy way out to completing something. This can be an achievement, a goal, or whatever.

The point is that you dont see the bigger picture here, thoese who are having a great time, but simply can not play throug this because of the 5 fps. Now if they ban this, everyone who doesnt have a fps above 15 on the lowest and almost no one around cant complete this. It would be annoying for me and alot others, if they remove this. It would mean that 20% of the population of Gw2 have to almost ignore every new content if it got a JP. This is a number I got out of my head ofc, but non the less how I read everyone is playing throug.

You personally like to see if you can do it, that is amaizing you want that, but the problem is that you see it as a challange and ofc. envy/hate on thoese who use a cheat to complete this.
It would be a huge problem regarding Guild JP´s, fun JP with friends and monthly content like this if they put your idea up.

If the lag wasnt there for anyone, I would accept your idea, I like tryieng to do every JP, but somewhere in the JP there is always a major lagg, even in empty once. This means i have to press W once and wait for 2-3 secs be4 it go 1 step forward. Thats why I am happy this is up, so I can try, and still get my price, see how amaizing it looks from above, from each JP.

If you have that low of a frame rate at the JP then you likely have the same elsewhere in the game. Whether you can complete the JP is the least of your troubles.

Jemmi.6058:

Bubi.7942:

Long anwser: Don’t want to sound like a kitten but: Dude, come on. Are people who are not able to do good hand-eye coordination required tasks, should not do them? Should blind people choose colors for your new housepainting? Should I be the CEO of any company becouse I have no idea about leadership?

Sounds like your point is that if you can do something, you should? Or is it just that if you can’t do something, you shouldn’t? Because if it is the former, than a mesmer can port others, so they should.
If your point is the latter, I greatly disagree with you. The only way we can ever progress in this world is if we push ourselves to do the perceived impossible. At one point in time it was impossible for people to fly.

Bubi.7942:

I am working in an office. I have a colleague, that works in the same office.
He is always one hour late and leaves one hour early, and does nothing in his worktime, just posts stuff on Facenote.com from 8joke.com.

We recieve the same payment.

But that doesn’t effect me or my work in any way. So it’s perfectly fine, right?

The 2nd largest differing factor in your analogy is that at your job, the person who receives higher payment for less work is actively hurting both the economy and the employer. Money for is increasing, without increasing product, and that just leads to inflation. I am fairly certain my conclusion is correct, but I will admit, I am not an economics major. Additionally, it is wrong, because that person is using their employer. They are receiving payment from the employer for time they did not commit. In the game, no one is receiving payment from another person for time not committed.

The largest differing factor in your analogy is that you are comparing a job to a game. A job is a responsibility that you have taken on to receive payment. A game is something you spend money and/or time on to have fun. The ultimate goal is completely different.

To the many replies, this one sums it up the most, so I’ll just anwser this one:

1st part:
- The latter. And you are perfectly right, I think we agree that people need to push boundries, practice, train to get better results in life, as it is the whole point of developing yourself. Great, I am thinking the same. Now how is someone being ported top with no effort being that? That’s completly the opposite. Skipping the challange = not improving.

2nd part:
- I made clear in the analogy, that the 2 people recieve the same amount of payment for their supposed work. The injustice here is in the eye of the ‘good guy’. And if we actually going to go into a bit of economics, it’s actually inflating the in-game market (which I don’t really care about).

@CreativeAnarchy:
I made also clear, no one takes the slak. No one gets blamed. the company is working fine. If that setup is ok to you then, I do not know what to say. You are probably the most lovable and kindest person in the world.

Finally:
Playing since day 1. Main is a mesmer. I do not know a single jumping puzzle where I haven’t ported at least 20 people up. But at this point, I am fed up with it. I am fed up with seeing 30+ people clustered at the bottom of the JP just waiting for the portal to appear.

MoistyLotion.8914:

Analogies don’t have to be 100% exact, I understand that. I did say somewhere in my post they had to be reasonably comparable, however. The analogy has to at least encompass the key points the situation implies. Otherwise, it’s inaccurate, and therefore, the point that comes with it is inaccurate as well.

Most situations being created here are obviously very unjust and don’t accurately represent a jumping puzzle situation, so how can I take points made by these analogies seriously?

Some people try to use analogies that encompass a key aspect of what they’re argument is. Earlier I had brought up how people would feel if a mesmer ported people from the beginning of a dungeon to the end to get an easy reward. It was shot down because it technically isn’t possible for the portal to go for that far and there’s the fact about how the mesmer got there in the first place.

The thing is that the technicalities on whether it was possible was irrelevant to my argument. I was attempting situation of using a portal to skip content so people could understand where I was coming from with my argument.

In my earlier posts I had brought up exploits and using them to get gear for personal use only. I tried to make an emphasis on personal use only since then it could be argued that it had no impact n the community. Some people missed this and compared it to the loot from the jp and such. Again this was me trying to get people to at least understand where I was coming from. They didn’t have to agree with it but they should at least understand my side of things.

Infrequent portaling is whatever. I’m pretty certain the special cases such as medical excuses, hardware, etc are very very small compared to the others who just don’t want to do it yet want the reward. I’ve frequently heard people in the EB jp say they want a port because they hate doing the jp. The mass portaling the day the jp was released just seemed way out of line.

In my original post of the thread I gave a few suggestions how to reduce the abuse of portals. The canceling of the portal skill when using a wp is a pretty good idea and I don’t see why it shouldn’t be implemented. I suggested a limit to the range of the portal within the jp so people could not do what happened with the new jp. Will it prevent mesmer a from using portal as a safety net? No. Will it prevent people from portaling to the end? Yes and no. They’ll just have to complete some of the jp to get within range.

There likely are better solutions to what I suggested and I was hoping the community could come up with them. I was not asking for a total ban of mesmer portal use in the jumping puzzles. I believe that people misunderstood what I was suggesting and got defensive causing the thread to snowball into a minor ragefest for the first half of the thread.

mercury ranique.2170:

I totally disagree with this. In my guild we have some (specially older) people who can’t do jumping puzzles. We are a very social guild that help each other with everything. This includes with doing jumping puzzles.

GW2 is a social game that encourage helping each other. There is nothing wrong with a portal and wanting to get rid of them in puzzles is in my opinion very selfish and anti-social.

So true. I’m one of those old players who can’t do jumping puzzles, (I also have fibromyalgia) My fingers just aren’t flexible enough.
Over the years gamers have become older and older, many who play mmos nowadays are 50+
Something to think about

—EDIT— On a side note; -I am of the opinion that in a game you use the tools that are handed to you/your class to achieve the goals/solve problems. Thus, using portals are not cheating imo

Rubina.9482:

mercury ranique.2170:

I totally disagree with this. In my guild we have some (specially older) people who can’t do jumping puzzles. We are a very social guild that help each other with everything. This includes with doing jumping puzzles.

GW2 is a social game that encourage helping each other. There is nothing wrong with a portal and wanting to get rid of them in puzzles is in my opinion very selfish and anti-social.

So true. I’m one of those old players who can’t do jumping puzzles, (I also have fibromyalgia) My fingers just aren’t flexible enough.
Over the years gamers have become older and older, many who play mmos nowadays are 50+
Something to think about

—EDIT— On a side note; -I am of the opinion that in a game you use the tools that are handed to you/your class to achieve the goals/solve problems. Thus, using portals are not cheating imo

I’m another one of those older players with arthritis in my hands and playing on a laggy connection. One of the people I play with has fibro also and she has problems with JPs also. I suspect a fair number of Guild Wars 2 players are older.

I can do some JPs but others I simply can’t no matter how long I try. If a Mesmer portal is offered, it’s gratefully accepted. I figure since this is a game about helping others then this is ‘working as intended’.

Ayrilana.1396:

zengara.8301:

Ayrilana.1396:

I personally have hung out at the puzzle and gave advice on how to pass certain parts as well as personally show them how. I even rez those that fall. You’re doing someone a disservice by encouraging people to take the easy way out to completing something. This can be an achievement, a goal, or whatever.

The point is that you dont see the bigger picture here, thoese who are having a great time, but simply can not play throug this because of the 5 fps. Now if they ban this, everyone who doesnt have a fps above 15 on the lowest and almost no one around cant complete this. It would be annoying for me and alot others, if they remove this. It would mean that 20% of the population of Gw2 have to almost ignore every new content if it got a JP. This is a number I got out of my head ofc, but non the less how I read everyone is playing throug.

You personally like to see if you can do it, that is amaizing you want that, but the problem is that you see it as a challange and ofc. envy/hate on thoese who use a cheat to complete this.
It would be a huge problem regarding Guild JP´s, fun JP with friends and monthly content like this if they put your idea up.

If the lag wasnt there for anyone, I would accept your idea, I like tryieng to do every JP, but somewhere in the JP there is always a major lagg, even in empty once. This means i have to press W once and wait for 2-3 secs be4 it go 1 step forward. Thats why I am happy this is up, so I can try, and still get my price, see how amaizing it looks from above, from each JP.

If you have that low of a frame rate at the JP then you likely have the same elsewhere in the game. Whether you can complete the JP is the least of your troubles.

Is that your answer? Thakittens the least of my troubles? As i wrote, it isnt, try to ask throug your guild once, who got a fps less than 20 and see how many responses there are. seriously dont know if your suggesting that i should ignore every possible JP by writing it is the least of my trouble.
The only thing I see throug this message, that somehow……it is a part of life to reach to the end, and cheating isnt fair or something like that.
Thoug you cant put real life and a game together, since JP isnt a huge factor like leveling for progression, I seriously would be pretty surpriced if anyone else did. It is easy to put anything on the “its like life”, thoug its very rarely true.
But a thing that doesnt hurt community, actually helps people out and helps people with not so many money to get a good computer is a actual factors to help the gamers.
People seeing this as true life progression, I dont see this happening at all, since it isnt nearly as big as lvling. It isnt like you will be able to lecture anyone throug just stopping every JP port, we will lose alot more than we gain,
if we gain anything by removing that at all?

I actually did ask the very few that lagged during the puzzle. They say they lagged the first day when there were a ton of people but now with less people in the puzzle they don’t.

I can’t understand why people are still trying to convince others that using a portal to help others skip content is somehow wrong. ANet gets to decide what is right and what is wrong. End of story. The people using portal to help others are playing the game how it was designed to be played. ANet designed this game to encourage “Players Helping Players”, it’s even the title to a forum subgroup.

If you don’t like how portal is used, that’s fine, no one can make you like it. But trying to make others feel like they are doing something wrong is silly. You don’t get to decide that.

And for those of you who like analogies, here is a more accurate one for this situation:

A rich business man in your town decides to create a challenge open for anyone in town to try to complete. As a reward for completing it there will be a grand feast at his mansion. In addition, everyone who completes the challenge may invite other people to the feast, even if those people did not complete the challenge. Enough of the people who completed the challenge are willing to invite those who did not complete the challenge that pretty much everyone who wanted to come to the feast is able to come to the feast.

I dont know how many you got in your guilds, but pretty much every guild ive been in there is atleast 5+ people out of 30 who got a pretty low fps

MacLeod.4208:

I can’t understand why people are still trying to convince others that using a portal to help others skip content is somehow wrong. ANet gets to decide what is right and what is wrong. End of story. The people using portal to help others are playing the game how it was designed to be played. ANet designed this game to encourage “Players Helping Players”, it’s even the title to a forum subgroup.

If you don’t like how portal is used, that’s fine, no one can make you like it. But trying to make others feel like they are doing something wrong is silly. You don’t get to decide that.

And for those of you who like analogies, here is a more accurate one for this situation:

A rich business man in your town decides to create a challenge open for anyone in town to try to complete. As a reward for completing it there will be a grand feast at his mansion. In addition, everyone who completes the challenge may invite other people to the feast, even if those people did not complete the challenge. Enough of the people who completed the challenge are willing to invite those who did not complete the challenge that pretty much everyone who wanted to come to the feast is able to come to the feast.

Well, I hate the idea to. But to say that it is totally Arena Net who decide if their game sck or not is pretty much just as bad, if alot of people was liking this (not one of them). Then it would be a huge – if Arena Net just goes with the “we control it all, we dont want to do it”.
I personally dont like analogies in gaming, since it always hits totally of the game and into the real world, which makes it wrong in every way since you dont get it all, and basecly tells me that you only look it in 1 direction instead of both.
When that is said, i will try to make one of them, or something alike a analogies just more into this post:
~I personally think that every speed buff in WvW should be cut off since the people arent really seeing the content, but always just running off and not making it fair for everyone, running away from a zerg or after one. Beside that, this will also simplify everything in the game.~
This post is somehow easiere to commit to, since you can argue against it, and actually not making a 3rd party world which I cant argue against, only if a make a analogie of how i see it, which is pretty stupid on my part.
This post was made for fun, and i would almost rather have this, since it helps more than hurting the game.
I agree that this post should just be ignored since it is only showen as 1 side, instead of both(bad and good) and the fact that people arent liking it.

@Ayrilana OK, I appreciate your response regarding the anaologies and that they do not have to be 100%. So perhaps this analogy will help you understand where I am coming from. However, it may very well be that we have entirely different political views and values of what are right and wrong.

What is your stance on altruism?
Noun
The belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others.
Behavior of an animal that benefits another akittens own expense.

What is your stance on welfare?
Statutory procedure or social effort designed to promote the basic physical and material well-being of people in need.

I believe that providing portals for people who are not very good at jumping puzzles, or cannot complete them due to other problems (FPS, disability, lag etc) is an act of altruism and is similar to welfare or donating money for the poor. You are going out of your way to help others that need it, and that is generally considered a very good thing.

Of course, it is a bad thing when people take advantage of it, and I believe that is the real problem here. In that case, it is not that portals (donations) are the problem, it is those who take advantage of it.

The fact that arenanet hasn’t responded to this thread yet, on their opinion of this matter, is kinda bothering me… its been at the top of the Suggestions forum for the past 2 days.. I think we deserve an answer so we can stop battling each other back and forth on the topic and just forget about it and go back to enjoying the game.

Dan.2940:

The fact that arenanet hasn’t responded to this thread yet, on their opinion of this matter, is kinda bothering me… its been at the top of the Suggestions forum for the past 2 days.. I think we deserve an answer so we can stop battling each other back and forth on the topic and just forget about it and go back to enjoying the game.

It seems pretty obvious to me what ANet’s opinion on this topic is. The portal is working as intended.

MacLeod.4208:

Dan.2940:

The fact that arenanet hasn’t responded to this thread yet, on their opinion of this matter, is kinda bothering me… its been at the top of the Suggestions forum for the past 2 days.. I think we deserve an answer so we can stop battling each other back and forth on the topic and just forget about it and go back to enjoying the game.

It seems pretty obvious to me what ANet’s opinion on this topic is. The portal is working as intended.

Either way, how much effort does it take to post on the forums more often? They should have people who have dedicated jobs at watching the forums and taking notes and making responses… I feel that i post more and look at more threads than Anet

Dan.2940:

MacLeod.4208:

Dan.2940:

The fact that arenanet hasn’t responded to this thread yet, on their opinion of this matter, is kinda bothering me… its been at the top of the Suggestions forum for the past 2 days.. I think we deserve an answer so we can stop battling each other back and forth on the topic and just forget about it and go back to enjoying the game.

It seems pretty obvious to me what ANet’s opinion on this topic is. The portal is working as intended.

Either way, how much effort does it take to post on the forums more often? They should have people who have dedicated jobs at watching the forums and taking notes and making responses… I feel that i post more and look at more threads than Anet

Fair enough =)

Dan.2940:

The fact that arenanet hasn’t responded to this thread yet, on their opinion of this matter, is kinda bothering me... its been at the top of the Suggestions forum for the past 2 days.. I think we deserve an answer so we can stop battling each other back and forth on the topic and just forget about it and go back to enjoying the game.

What reply is required? edit-- this is an honest question, with my reasoning behind it, hopefully it doesn’t come across as trying to argue

A player who uses a portal to complete a jumping puzzle has no bearing on whether or not you (a general you, not calling anyone out specifically) can do the puzzle.

If a group of players ports to the chest, you won’t suddenly have more difficult jumps to complete or lose control of your character.

And as long as the chests at the end of the puzzle continue to not offer some kind of ridiculous reward (let’s ignore that the exotic shoulders were 60s originally), no one’s going to benefit over other players by porting aside from a little bit of time.

So I cannot help but feel that most of the complaints about portals must be about the achievement points for jumping puzzles being trivial. Achievement points are a mess in any system. They sure do provide the carrot for us all to chase, but for whatever reason people also seem to think they mean anything about skill. They should just be for fun, and as such you shouldn’t care who has what achievements.

All that should matter, until the puzzle rewards become something of impact, is if you had fun and you enjoyed it. I don’t see how others’ using portals has any real bearing on that.

Gotta lol at the points against portals.
“Game is too easy! I am supposed to sweat kitten, and cry tears of blood! Portals make other people have to work less! Hence fail less! And cry less blood! This makes me sad! Make the game so hard that nobody, but the most dedicated of people willing to puke blood to be able to complete it! CRY MOAR NUBZ!!!”

Ofcourse this is a crude joke on my part, but that’s how I imagine elitists who just want games to be harder. Personally I don’t mind the portals, but I don’t mind not having the portals either since the puzzles in this game are all kind of… Easy. At least those I’ve ran into.

Jemmi.6058:

@Ayrilana OK, I appreciate your response regarding the anaologies and that they do not have to be 100%. So perhaps this analogy will help you understand where I am coming from. However, it may very well be that we have entirely different political views and values of what are right and wrong.

What is your stance on altruism?
Noun
The belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others.
Behavior of an animal that benefits another akittens own expense.

What is your stance on welfare?
Statutory procedure or social effort designed to promote the basic physical and material well-being of people in need.

I believe that providing portals for people who are not very good at jumping puzzles, or cannot complete them due to other problems (FPS, disability, lag etc) is an act of altruism and is similar to welfare or donating money for the poor. You are going out of your way to help others that need it, and that is generally considered a very good thing.

Of course, it is a bad thing when people take advantage of it, and I believe that is the real problem here. In that case, it is not that portals (donations) are the problem, it is those who take advantage of it.

As far as the example itself you provided, I agree with it. People that need assistance for whatever reason should be able to receive it. Efforts should be made so that they do not rely on it and so that others do not abuse it.

I think in my last post (the long one on this page) I mentioned that I didn’t have too much of an issue with those that had hardware, medical problems , etc. It was more about the 99% (guess, not factual) of the others who are too lazy to do the puzzle.

Your example also doesn’t exactly go with the issue at hand considering welfare and such helps with needs, not wants. People don’t need to get to the end of the jumping puzzle they want to. Before someone comes on and stated that nobody needs to play the game, all I have to say is that is not a real argument.

MacLeod.4208:

A rich business man in your town decides to create a challenge open for anyone in town to try to complete. As a reward for completing it there will be a grand feast at his mansion. In addition, everyone who completes the challenge may invite other people to the feast, even if those people did not complete the challenge. Enough of the people who completed the challenge are willing to invite those who did not complete the challenge that pretty much everyone who wanted to come to the feast is able to come to the feast.

I understand where you’re trying to go with this however it doesn’t address one of the issues. In your example, those who completed it being able to bring guests was part of the “event”. It was specifically addressed and there were no doubts on its legitimacy. Unfortunately this is not the case for mesmer portals. It was not stated that mesmer portals could be used by those that completed the puzzle to bring others. It also was not said that players couldn’t either.

This brings us back to where we are now where we don’t know if it’s right or wrong. We each have our own personal opinion but we don’t have the official stance from Anet who can ultimately decide upon that. I also do not believe silence on their part to be a response.

synk.6907:

Dan.2940:

The fact that arenanet hasn’t responded to this thread yet, on their opinion of this matter, is kinda bothering me… its been at the top of the Suggestions forum for the past 2 days.. I think we deserve an answer so we can stop battling each other back and forth on the topic and just forget about it and go back to enjoying the game.

What reply is required? edit— this is an honest question, with my reasoning behind it, hopefully it doesn’t come across as trying to argue

A player who uses a portal to complete a jumping puzzle has no bearing on whether or not you (a general you, not calling anyone out specifically) can do the puzzle.

If a group of players ports to the chest, you won’t suddenly have more difficult jumps to complete or lose control of your character.

And as long as the chests at the end of the puzzle continue to not offer some kind of ridiculous reward (let’s ignore that the exotic shoulders were 60s originally), no one’s going to benefit over other players by porting aside from a little bit of time.

So I cannot help but feel that most of the complaints about portals must be about the achievement points for jumping puzzles being trivial. Achievement points are a mess in any system. They sure do provide the carrot for us all to chase, but for whatever reason people also seem to think they mean anything about skill. They should just be for fun, and as such you shouldn’t care who has what achievements.

All that should matter, until the puzzle rewards become something of impact, is if you had fun and you enjoyed it. I don’t see how others’ using portals has any real bearing on that.

Any sort of reply to answer whether removing portals from JP’s has been thought about by developers or not. If they truly intended to have portals work in this way and have no issues with it being used in Jump puzzles. At least then we can stop arguing to a wall, it will allow us to move on from this thread.

Ayrilana.1396:

Your example also doesn’t exactly go with the issue at hand considering welfare and such helps with needs, not wants. People don’t need to get to the end of the jumping puzzle they want to. Before someone comes on and stated that nobody needs to play the game, all I have to say is that is not a real argument.

I agree, but I thought the analogies didn’t need to line up 100%?

Anyway, my point is that I like to throw up portals to help people. They like to be helped. I do not really see the problem. Not everything in life needs to be earned, sometimes it is OK to accept help from others and sometimes it is OK to help others. It doesn’t mean they don’t deserve it.

synk.6907:

A player who uses a portal to complete a jumping puzzle has no bearing on whether or not you (a general you, not calling anyone out specifically) can do the puzzle.

If a group of players ports to the chest, you won’t suddenly have more difficult jumps to complete or lose control of your character.

I’ll try to reuse a previous example I had made and hopefully I can have it come across as how I had intended.

Suppose a player found a mechanic in the game that was not necessarily intended by the devs. This said mechanic allowed players to receive a soulbound legendary. The details about this mechanic are irrelevant as I’m not arguing whether it is possible. How would you feel if players can now get their legendary with no effort?

My intention with the above is to get you to relate to what I see when players try to circumvent content in the game via a mechanic whether intended or not (we still won’t know without an official Anet response). People can argue in support of the mechanic mentioned above with statements that not a lot of players have the time to farm the materials or they’ve just been having very bad luck. I’m sure you could include medical reasons as well.

What it comes down to is whether the said mechanic is right or wrong. The mesmer portal bypasses the entire jumping puzzle to achieve your reward. The type of reward does not make it more or less right or wrong. The mechanic in my example let people bypass the farming to achieve their reward (a legendary). Everyone can have their opinion on each side about whether it is right or wrong but in the end it’s up to Anet to decide.

Jemmi.6058:

I agree, but I thought the analogies didn’t need to line up 100%?

Anyway, my point is that I like to throw up portals to help people. They like to be helped. I do not really see the problem. Not everything in life needs to be earned, sometimes it is OK to accept help from others and sometimes it is OK to help others. It doesn’t mean they don’t deserve it.

Yes, they don’t. It’s just your example covers something that is a need rather than a want. Most people need welfare to support themselves. Helping people is a good thing but there are “right” and “wrong” ways about doing it. I’ve personally helped people by giving them pointers, showing them how to do the puzzle, or rez’ing them when they fall.

Ayrilana.1396:

Yes, they don’t. It’s just your example covers something that is a need rather than a want. Most people need welfare to support themselves. As far as helping people in the game: you can give them pointers, show them how to do the puzzle, or rez them when they fall.

The previous analogies that were picked apart in this thread that you rose up against had similar major conflicts.

However, if you want a more similar analogy then, how about this. You buy a gift for a friend. They don’t necessarily deserve the gift, but you got it for them because you wanted to. Is it wrong to buy them a gift? Is it wrong for them to accept the gift?

Ayrilana.1396:

synk.6907:

A player who uses a portal to complete a jumping puzzle has no bearing on whether or not you (a general you, not calling anyone out specifically) can do the puzzle.

If a group of players ports to the chest, you won’t suddenly have more difficult jumps to complete or lose control of your character.

I’ll try to reuse a previous example I had made and hopefully I can have it come across as how I had intended.

Suppose a player found a mechanic in the game that was not necessarily intended by the devs. This said mechanic allowed players to receive a soulbound legendary. The details about this mechanic are irrelevant as I’m not arguing whether it is possible. How would you feel if players can now get their legendary with no effort?

My intention with the above is to get you to relate to what I see when players try to circumvent content in the game via a mechanic whether intended or not (we still won’t know without an official Anet response). People can argue in support of the mechanic mentioned above with statements that not a lot of players have the time to farm the materials or they’ve just been having very bad luck. I’m sure you could include medical reasons as well.

What it comes down to is whether the said mechanic is right or wrong. The mesmer portal bypasses the entire jumping puzzle to achieve your reward. The type of reward does not make it more or less right or wrong. The mechanic in my example let people bypass the farming to achieve their reward (a legendary). Everyone can have their opinion on each side about whether it is right or wrong but in the end it’s up to Anet to decide.

You think Anet doesn’t know about porting in Jumple puzzles? The game has been out for a pretty long time now, if they didnt think about it initially while creating the actual skill, im pretty sure they know now… Maybe they arn’t always repping their Arenanet Guild but may i remind you that developers from Anet actually play the game too?

As long as puzzles like Griffonrook run, Scavenger’s Chasm, hexfoundry unhinged, winter wonderland, Mad King’s clock tower, and my personal Favourite Spekks’s lab, exist and have existed. I feel the arguments against portal are invalid.

Ayrilana.1396:

MacLeod.4208:

A rich business man in your town decides to create a challenge open for anyone in town to try to complete. As a reward for completing it there will be a grand feast at his mansion. In addition, everyone who completes the challenge may invite other people to the feast, even if those people did not complete the challenge. Enough of the people who completed the challenge are willing to invite those who did not complete the challenge that pretty much everyone who wanted to come to the feast is able to come to the feast.

I understand where you’re trying to go with this however it doesn’t address one of the issues. In your example, those who completed it being able to bring guests was part of the “event”. It was specifically addressed and there were no doubts on its legitimacy. Unfortunately this is not the case for mesmer portals. It was not stated that mesmer portals could be used by those that completed the puzzle to bring others. It also was not said that players couldn’t either.

This brings us back to where we are now where we don’t know if it’s right or wrong. We each have our own personal opinion but we don’t have the official stance from Anet who can ultimately decide upon that. I also do not believe silence on their part to be a response.

Actually, I gave 3 reasons up above why it is obvious what ANet’s stance is on it. The fact is that the portal is working as intended. Once you finish the jumping puzzle you have the option of “inviting” others to the “feast”.

Players helping players is a good mechanic. Not everyone is great at platforming. I personally breezed through the not-so-secret JP, but a lot of players were literally begging for someone to teleport them to the top. After redoing the same bit a hundred times, the novelty wears off, and people are right to want to skip it. That in no way diminishes my personal feeling of victory when I make it to the top on my own.

mercury ranique.2170:

I totally disagree with this. In my guild we have some (specially older) people who can’t do jumping puzzles. We are a very social guild that help each other with everything. This includes with doing jumping puzzles.

This is the very reason why the portals shouldn’t work in JPs. If you cannot do content because of lack of skill, you shouldn’t get a freebie ride to its rewards either. I’m fine with social guilds/players wanting to help each other, but help each other learn how to do the content then rather than just transport them to the end – this post alone was a shining example why the portal should be “nerf’ed” when it comes to this kind of content – allow long range horizontal range but much shorter range in vertical range or something like that, I don’t know, that’s up to Anet to decide.

Yes, I’m a mesmer too and used portals in Not So Secret, but only to get myself back up if I didn’t manage a jump – and I don’t mind people catching a ride if they were in the same boat, they would then continue to attempt to get to the end too. I never ported people straight to the finish line.

If people think mesmer portaling is inappropriate, how about all of the other skills & traits that make JPs easier?

• 50% reduction in falling damage.
• +10-25% movement speed for some professions via signets or traits.
• stability, aegis or other blocks to prevent getting knocked down by environmental effects or foes
• stealth to get past difficult foes
• shadowstepping to move faster or teleporting to cross otherwise difficult gaps

In other words, I don’t see mesmer portaling as different in any way from all the creative ways in which players tackle PvE content in general.

For those who want a “pure” jumping puzzle, there’s SAB — by popular demand, a recurring special event feature. Everyone reduced to the same abilities and size.

Finally, if mesmers aren’t supposed to portal people for JPs, just what do you think the skill’s intended use is, for PvE? Every case I can think of is helping people who can’t “jump” get through more quickly: CoF/1 boulders, Asura Fractal stairway, Dredge Fractal gating, and so on. Of course, this isn’t really an argument against ANet revisiting the idea of nerfing yet another mesmer tool — I just mean to suggest that I believe that ANet originally expected people to portal people through JPs.

Although I don’t think it matters for the above, I’ve done nearly all the JPs in PvE on my own. For Not So Secret, I got to the main chest on my own, but got lost getting to the goggles (poor sense of 3D spatial relations while viewing in 2D). I got a several ports there (while figuring out by trial & error what I was supposed to do) and then came back later on my own.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

In other words, I don’t see mesmer portaling as different in any way from all the creative ways in which players tackle PvE content in general.

Do you honestly see no difference in any way between a skill that makes it easier to make it through a jumping puzzle (swiftness, stbility, mesmer portal as your own “safety net” for a tricky jump, falling damage reduction) and a skill that makes it so someone does not do the jumping puzzle?

That’s like comparing handing out drinks to marathon runners and cheering for them, to giving someone a free pass to take a taxi and then stand in the finish line. I don’t think you get a participation badge for the latter…

Dan.2940:

I don’t understand why people are making a fuss over mesmer portals in JP’s, if you don’t want to use a portal, don’t use it, play the game the way you want to play it, its as simple as that. How would nerfing portals help you in any way? Increase the population in the JP to block your view of jumps? Comon now… People can choose the way they want to play the game, and some people are incapable of completing jump puzzles, so why make them suffer?

As someone who loves jump puzzles, i complete my jump puzzles normally, but sometimes i even get annoyed with not being able to make a jump, and when i’m pressed for time i don’t see why using a portal should be illegal.

What he said.

When ever I’m in a jumping puzzle, and I see massive groups of players cussing at their screens at the same jump, I hope they find a friendly mesmer to teleport them to the top. I think everyone should be having fun in the game.

There are other ways in which players help each other. There are a few JP’s that rely more on actual puzzling, and I see no problem with players just tagging along but not doing anything. When you’re doing a puzzle like Tears of Itlaocol, only one or two people are actually placing the tears, and the rest is just tagging along. Is that a problem? Not at all. As long as everyone is having fun.

mercury ranique.2170:

I totally disagree with this. In my guild we have some (specially older) people who can’t do jumping puzzles. We are a very social guild that help each other with everything. This includes with doing jumping puzzles.

GW2 is a social game that encourage helping each other. There is nothing wrong with a portal and wanting to get rid of them in puzzles is in my opinion very selfish and anti-social.

So if an older person can’t do a dungeon path, we should put in a insta-kill all button for them because its only fair to not exclude them?

No, this isn’t being selfless or giving, it’s being lazy. If you cannot do content, then its not for you to do. If they start making things too easy and no one will be in pve. If these older people (which really… age and other qualitities should have no say in what is fair and isn’t fair. The content is for all, YOU don’t be selfish) can’t do high level fractals, should they be dumbed down? Nty. Not making a personal attack, but using handicapped people as a prop is just a poor excuse. Portals shouldn’t be allowed in any way to skip content, it’s supposed to be a tactical skill not a content skipping skill.

Being social would be helping them do the jp (kill adds, explain the jump, give tips on not over-shooting a jump, etc). During the wintersday and halloween jp, those didn’t allow skills. If someone has never really done a jp and just took a portal all the time, how are they at all prepared for a time trial jp?

I personally got annoyed with the new jp they added in gendarren fields. Instead of wasting my time, I just went to do other things. A mesmer portal or doing the jp myself, either way I was getting a recycled skin with exotic stats. Nothing useful.

If I’m a mesmer and I’ve done all of the jumping puzzles, it’s my right to be able to portal other players who may not be as good as me at them.
Hell, some people can even charge for it, although that’s a red-rag to a bull with me. I’ll usually do the same jumping puzzle upon seeing someone do that then subvert them by offering free portals.

But this topic does gloss over one crucial fact, and I believe there may be a critical misunderstanding of how mesmer portals work amongst some elements of the community; specifically those who don’t have mesmers themselves.

Portals don’t make the jumping puzzles any easier for the mesmer doing them. True, they allow a do-over if the mesmer remembers to place portals at certain points, but generally we forget.
The mesmer has to do the jumping puzzle like everyone else. Portals do not allow them to bypass anything in jumping puzzles. You can’t place a portal ahead of yourself.
So a mesmer who has done a jumping puzzle has done it “properly”, of that you can rest assured.

If we weren’t allowed to use portals to help other people, I would be deprived of a lot of the fun I have with this game. I have a guild member who’s great fun to play with, but hopeless at jumping puzzles. I massively enjoy helping them through these things, and generally they’ll try their hardest before asking me for help.

And another thing.
Mesmers have a harder time than most in jumping puzzles.
Mesmers have no access to stability for example, so Goemm’s Lab can be a challenge, as can other puzzles with environmental hazards.
Our access to swiftness is not as easy as with other classes, so in general we’ll do all jumps with no speed boosts. And I know I do, as they have all been designed to be done without swiftness. A lot of players don’t even realise this, thinking that swiftness is mandatory for certain puzzles.

So next time you look to complain about portals making jumping puzzles trivial, roll a mesmer and do every jumping puzzle in the game.
Then message me and ask me to portal you past the one you get stuck on.

I am 57, the wife 55. I can usually do a JP after a lot of trying and failing before I succeed but the wife just cannot do JPs with the same level of success that I get. She will attempt them with me but after an hour or so of trying the more difficult ones she will give up in frustration.

Now the one thing about playing as a couple, and we have been playing computer games together since we met in one over 20 years ago, is that we try to keep ourselves even in regards to levels and achievements. Jump puzzles are not everyone’s cup of tea. What is ironic is that 20 years ago she could run circles around me in “Super Mario” type games and back then she would have left me in the dust on any of the jps in the game. Now after working much of my life as a mechanic, arthritis in my hands will make not only jump puzzles but even the game in general unplayable on those days when it decides to flare up. On those days she will not play the game because I cannot play the game.

Setting a portal in a JP for somebody is not done to “exploit” the game. It is done because you have some empathy for the other person and you can feel their frustration over not being able to make that “last” jump. What this world needs is a bit more empathy not less. Using a mesmer portal is not our first choice as we will attempt it first, it is our last choice and done because we care about the other person.

Bubi.7942:

2nd part:
- I made clear in the analogy, that the 2 people recieve the same amount of payment for their supposed work. The injustice here is in the eye of the ‘good guy’. And if we actually going to go into a bit of economics, it’s actually inflating the in-game market (which I don’t really care about).

The problem with your analogy is that you are comparing a scenario where you are supposed to have responsibility to a scenario where you just have to have fun. Yes, in a work environment you are expected to pull your weight. If somebody does not, there is a problem.

The same does not apply for a game. You are under no obligation to do it the hard or easy way. It’s a choice. Don’t want to use the portal? Fine, go ahead and complete the JP the way you want to. Don’t want to do the JP? Feel free to use the portal. If people start with the “I did it the hard way so others should too” mentality, you will eventually start unraveling some of the core mechanics that make the game social.
Didn’t do the entire event from start to finish? No reward for you.
Didn’t kill the monster all by yourself? No reward for you.
Etc, etc.

Bubi.7942:

But at this point, I am fed up with it. I am fed up with seeing 30+ people clustered at the bottom of the JP just waiting for the portal to appear.

Honestly, if you don’t want to do it – don’t You are no more under obligation to spend all your time portaling people up than any of them are under the obligation to stop and help with every single event they encounter. It’s a choice. Don’t want to do it? Don’t.

It’s all just a game after all, not a job

Mungrul.9358:

If I’m a mesmer and I’ve done all of the jumping puzzles, it’s my right to be able to portal other players who may not be as good as me at them.
Hell, some people can even charge for it, although that’s a red-rag to a bull with me. I’ll usually do the same jumping puzzle upon seeing someone do that then subvert them by offering free portals.

But this topic does gloss over one crucial fact, and I believe there may be a critical misunderstanding of how mesmer portals work amongst some elements of the community; specifically those who don’t have mesmers themselves.

Portals don’t make the jumping puzzles any easier for the mesmer doing them. True, they allow a do-over if the mesmer remembers to place portals at certain points, but generally we forget.
The mesmer has to do the jumping puzzle like everyone else. Portals do not allow them to bypass anything in jumping puzzles. You can’t place a portal ahead of yourself.
So a mesmer who has done a jumping puzzle has done it “properly”, of that you can rest assured.

If we weren’t allowed to use portals to help other people, I would be deprived of a lot of the fun I have with this game. I have a guild member who’s great fun to play with, but hopeless at jumping puzzles. I massively enjoy helping them through these things, and generally they’ll try their hardest before asking me for help.

And another thing.
Mesmers have a harder time than most in jumping puzzles.
Mesmers have no access to stability for example, so Goemm’s Lab can be a challenge, as can other puzzles with environmental hazards.
Our access to swiftness is not as easy as with other classes, so in general we’ll do all jumps with no speed boosts. And I know I do, as they have all been designed to be done without swiftness. A lot of players don’t even realise this, thinking that swiftness is mandatory for certain puzzles.

So next time you look to complain about portals making jumping puzzles trivial, roll a mesmer and do every jumping puzzle in the game.
Then message me and ask me to portal you past the one you get stuck on.

Although I almost entirely agree with you, I wanted to clarify one thing. We (mesmers) do have access to stability. Mantra of um Concentration? I think it’s called. Gives 2x 2 second stability. It actually works quite well in Goemms Lab

Hah, shows I rarely play with mantras!
Cheers

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

In other words, I don’t see mesmer portaling as different in any way from all the creative ways in which players tackle PvE content in general.

Pixelpumpkin.4608:

Do you honestly see no difference in any way between a skill that makes it easier to make it through a jumping puzzle (swiftness, stbility, mesmer portal as your own “safety net” for a tricky jump, falling damage reduction) and a skill that makes it so someone does not do the jumping puzzle?

That’s like comparing handing out drinks to marathon runners and cheering for them, to giving someone a free pass to take a taxi and then stand in the finish line. I don’t think you get a participation badge for the latter…

I guess you’ve never participated in San Francisco’s Bay to Breaker’s race, in which people do hand out drinks to runners and cheer for them. Some people ride part way, some people dance naked in costume. Some people carry other people, some wheel others in shopping carts. If you can think of it, I’m sure someone has done it.

It’s all in good fun. And yes, people who cross the finish line get a t-shirt or something, but no one much cares how they got there.

JPs in GW2 aren’t marathons, except for the SAB.

And yes, by the way, I don’t see any difference between a mesmer using a portal to help people and a ranger using a perma speed boost signet to help themself, but not help anyone else. Both are using skills working as intended by the developers.

In any case, you’re welcome to view the game as you like. I’m explaining why I’m not bothered that I’ve done all the JPs on my own at some point, but others have hopped on a mesmer portal. I know what I’ve accomplished; they know what they’ve accomplished.

Rubina.9482:

mercury ranique.2170:

I totally disagree with this. In my guild we have some (specially older) people who can’t do jumping puzzles. We are a very social guild that help each other with everything. This includes with doing jumping puzzles.

GW2 is a social game that encourage helping each other. There is nothing wrong with a portal and wanting to get rid of them in puzzles is in my opinion very selfish and anti-social.

So true. I’m one of those old players who can’t do jumping puzzles, (I also have fibromyalgia) My fingers just aren’t flexible enough.
Over the years gamers have become older and older, many who play mmos nowadays are 50+
Something to think about

—EDIT— On a side note; -I am of the opinion that in a game you use the tools that are handed to you/your class to achieve the goals/solve problems. Thus, using portals are not cheating imo

Your little side note made me think of something. What’s the point in Mesmer portals if not for skipping content? Mesmer puts one portal down, moves, puts another one down, party/people enter at one end and exit at the other.

What possible use could it have other than moving people past or around things?

mercury ranique.2170:

GW2 is a social game that encourage helping each other. There is nothing wrong with a portal and wanting to get rid of them in puzzles is in my opinion very selfish and anti-social.

there is everything wrong with a single skill trivializing 10+ minutes of content in 5 seconds and you wanting the reward with no effort while others have to do it properly and actually play the game is very selfish and anti-social.

“If you don’t like them, just don’t use them” is an absolutely absurd argument. The bottom line is that use of Mesmer portals does trivialize the rewards offered in jumping puzzles.

A large reason why anyone does anything in games is the reward, why? Because due to divine creation, evolution, or the small men/women that inhabit our skulls we like stuff. Additionally rewards make an activity feel like more of an accomplishment. Working at a job for 30 years without recognition of your efforts in the form of a promotion or raise will likely leave you without the impression that you were appreciated or valuable.

If you’re genuinely of the opinion that anything that doesn’t affect others isn’t a problem then I demand that developers add a button that gives me every piece of dungeon equipment in the game, already soul-bound and incapable of salvage. It has no impact on the economy as it can’t be sold or converted to ectoplasm/dust, and it saves me the trouble of running dungeons. For that matter, I want every legendary in the game too. Also, I should be given every Ascended piece of equipment with this button. Seems the developers have their work cut out for them.

I empathize with those who are incapable of doing some of the jump puzzles, I really understand this (kitten you straight to hell dark room). However, dissolving what interesting and challenging content there is for the more advanced players isn’t a fair approach either. As I said, doing all the work while watching others get rewarded for nothing as fun or rewarding. Players who are amazing at doing jump puzzles should be rewarded; just like those better in Dungeons, PvP, WvW, and any other aspect of the game deserve additional rewards.

If we as a community decide that we should marginalize those who are more skilled in a particular field because we want to experience every inch of the game we’ll be left with a less interesting game as a whole. While you might not think the community means a whole lot our feedback will push and pull the developers towards their ultimate approach to this kind of discussion in particular.