Guild Wars 2

No gear grind treadmill, please …but a big mucking two-handed Axe of Kill All would be well received

… or maybe paint pellets for my rifle. Why kill ’em when you can “pink” them?

castlemanic.3198:

Gear progression is not the same, because it creates distance between those players who have dedicated that time towards getting that extra powerful gear from those who have jobs and havent touched the game in a month or two.

This. I wouldn’t care much if it was PvE only, but PvE already is relatively easy so that would just trivialize it. I’ve been in a WoW “high-end guild” that farmed Blackwing Lair and I played up to PvP rank 14 before the first addon was released, and I know what that kind of game mechanic can mean to your life if you’re a bit fragile. And that’s unfortunately an increasing problem.

What a terrible idea... In a game where a credit card can buy you the current best, we don’t need gear progression.

Having something to reach for is not a bad thing. When I was level 32 I was soooo looking forward to level 35 and getting rare weapons and armors, then the milestone level 40. At level 55 I was soooo looking forward to level 60.

I was abit surprised I would be able to obtain level 80 exotic armors and weapons so quick (1-2gold on TP). I wouldn’t mind working abit to upgrade from rare to exotic through dungeons or farming alot of karma points. Not saying it should take months to obtain one piece, nor do I suggest that new tiers of improved gear would have to be added on every 6 months, but having nearly max’ed out gear less than a week after hitting 80 is abit too easy imo.

Perhaps there will be legendary armors one day? Legendary quality is already in the game so I cannot see why it could not include more than just weapons sometime in the future =)

Sure there is no monthly fee to play this game, but as many other MMOs you have the option to buy skins/dyes etc with rl cash so it is not quite true that there is no need to keep players post 80. The longer someone plays this game the higher chance is that they will spend more cash on it =)

That being said, I love this game and I will play it for quite awhile still. I still have more classes to play, alternate storylines to try.

Please… no end game gear progression. This is typical MMO mentality. Just fix your end game.

So people want more than just a new “cool” skin as a reward for doing a long drawn out mass chaos dungeon. And Anet wants people to rely on skill and not stats. Ok so why not go all the way back to Zelda and have us earn something that we never had before the dungeon in the way of a skill(slot or weapon) or trait or sigil or something to that effect. Maybe a specific one for each dungeon? I don’t know just kind of trying to find a middle ground here.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Dzonatan.5327:

That’s not progress. Progress means that you progressed from one point to the second and you improved along the way. Cosmetic change is not an improvement.

If I started out with a look I didn’t like, and worked to get a look I did like (i.e. improvement), I’d say that progress. If I had one look I liked and then branched out to create multiple looks I liked, that’s also progress. It’s just more personal to me.

Progress doesn’t just have to be numbers going bigger.

There is a difference to beneficial improvement and non-beneficial improvment.

Skin improvement = fluff.

Character progression improvement = content.

Content sells, not fluff.

As more and more people hit 80 and realize there is no real endgame content, they will leave after a few weeks and more and more threads about this issue are being made on a weekly basis now. It started off with a minority amount of players vocally displaying thier issues with it a month or so ago and they got shut down with a bunch of dribble, now, more and more of the community is feeling it.

Taemek.1602:

Character progression improvement = content.

Content sells, not fluff.

In that case then, Player Housing, Mini-Games, Holiday Events, Jumping Puzzles, World Boss Fights ect aren’t content, but fluff? Since they don’t offer character improvement.

Content = stuff to do. Not character progression.

Taemek.1602:

As more and more people hit 80 and realize there is no real endgame content, they will leave after a few weeks and more and more threads about this issue are being made on a weekly basis now. It started off with a minority amount of players vocally displaying thier issues with it a month or so ago and they got shut down with a bunch of dribble, now, more and more of the community is feeling it.

And how is that the games fault? Right from the beginning ANet stated there would be no gear progression, and that it’d follow the same model as GW1 which was hunting for skins and refining your build.

As for your ‘no real endgame content’ comment, define real endgame content?

Raids? Gear Progression? Because that’s the only thing missing at cap that’s in other games. Because, you know, they did say these wouldn’t be in there. It’s hardly ANet’s fault that people need bigger numbers as an incentive to play.

Please DO NOT bring end game gear progression to the game! :P

I come from another mainstream MMO and I liked it. However, I’m loving GW2, even much more than I expected and in such a way that sometimes I stop and ponder: Dude, these guys are geniuses…

Every single aspect about the game seems to have been carefully thought out and done. I haven’t played GW1, but GW2 is a masterpiece. Please do not screw it up by changing its spirit.

I could go on for hours listing every detail about the game and how that was so well thought out and why it is so good to have it the way it is in the game, but I guess that is not the reason for this reply.

I’ll refrain from extending the post further and limit myself to saying that NOT having an end game gear progression is one of the key decisions that contribute to GW2’s masterpieceship.

Please DO NOT bring end game gear progression to the game!

And thank you for such an awesome game!

The game needs more end game content its as simple as that. Everyone knows this. People tend to only do the dungeons that has armour they want to aquire. Cos lets face it no ones going to farm a dungeon to get armour they dont like and wont use (unless they are mental)

Most they will do is go once to experiance the dungeon and then stay away.

I saw people in other threads mention raids and progression gear and one of the ideas I saw and took note of (cos I liked it) was one where they had suggested an 8-10 man raid with better gear than exotics. But the gears stats only improved inside said raid (this could be done for dungeons to). Maybe killing a boss gives X points/tokens etc and those could be used to give runes/sigils that only work in certain areas (the dungeon)

With 3 level 80’s all in exotics I think endgame does kinda get boring faster than other games cos of the lack of actual progression.

Lutharr.1035:

I saw people in other threads mention raids and progression gear and one of the ideas I saw and took note of (cos I liked it) was one where they had suggested an 8-10 man raid with better gear than exotics. But the gears stats only improved inside said raid (this could be done for dungeons to). Maybe killing a boss gives X points/tokens etc and those could be used to give runes/sigils that only work in certain areas (the dungeon)

Ok, so you farm that dungeon for a week, then you got the best gear again. What’s next then? Harder mobs, better gear? And then – even harder mobs, even better gear?
This “progression” is what resulted in the insane concept of monster levels and the infernal machine in D3, which imo is the most stupid approach I ever encountered.

Reasons why this is a bad idea:
1. It goes against what Guild Wars was built upon.
2. This encourages elitism and I see enough of that already and elitism is bad for a community game if it goes over-board.
3. WvW is based off of PvE gear specs, so would cost a lot more coding to balance that out.
4. I would rather skill be more important then gear, as that is how it was in GW1
5. I would rather see new & legendary skins then gear progression and recycled skins.

Iruwen.3164:

Lutharr.1035:

I saw people in other threads mention raids and progression gear and one of the ideas I saw and took note of (cos I liked it) was one where they had suggested an 8-10 man raid with better gear than exotics. But the gears stats only improved inside said raid (this could be done for dungeons to). Maybe killing a boss gives X points/tokens etc and those could be used to give runes/sigils that only work in certain areas (the dungeon)

Ok, so you farm that dungeon for a week, then you got the best gear again. What’s next then? Harder mobs, better gear? And then – even harder mobs, even better gear?
This “progression” is what resulted in the insane concept of monster levels and the infernal machine in D3, which imo is the most stupid approach I ever encountered.

Lots more games take a gear progression approach and since they are highly successful I seriously doubt it could be coined as stupid. Not to your taste maybe.

The facts are when folks feel that they have done all they can in a game and there is nothign else to do then they just quit. The arguement that people can come back at anytime while is valid is also a misconception. When people leave they usually go on to something else. They invest their time, money etc which means they are less likely to leave that to come back to a game that they left due to one thing or another in the first place.

Take WoW for instance. Played it for years. I eventually grew tired of the direction it was going. Apprantly the new expansion is better than expected, but I still wont go back due to having invested my time and money in GW2.

People are not asking for GW2 to be another WoW clone on the whole. Most are realising atm the endgame is limited and are making suggestions to address that. In the pursuit of perfection, no stone should be left unturned.

Lutharr.1035:

Lots more games take a gear progression approach and since they are highly successful I seriously doubt it could be coined as stupid. Not to your taste maybe…

…People are not asking for GW2 to be another WoW clone on the whole. Most are realising atm the endgame is limited and are making suggestions to address that. In the pursuit of perfection, no stone should be left unturned.

Gear progression in most games is merely there to stretch out and gate content. If there could be a form of gear progression that didn’t affect the wider world but was specific to where it was gained, I’d be all for it:

I.E. Armour from Citadel of Fire reduced damage from mobs in that Dungeon by 2% / 4% / 6% (depending on number of pieces)

Armour from WvW increases damage dealt to structures / reduces amount of supply needed for siege weapons / reduces damage from siege weapons / increases amount of supply you can carry ect.

Stats would all be the same, but the bonuses would be specific to that area, would not affect the wider game and wouldn’t gate content. At the same time, it gives progression for those who want it.

Lutharr.1035:

Iruwen.3164:

Lutharr.1035:

I saw people in other threads mention raids and progression gear and one of the ideas I saw and took note of (cos I liked it) was one where they had suggested an 8-10 man raid with better gear than exotics. But the gears stats only improved inside said raid (this could be done for dungeons to). Maybe killing a boss gives X points/tokens etc and those could be used to give runes/sigils that only work in certain areas (the dungeon)

Ok, so you farm that dungeon for a week, then you got the best gear again. What’s next then? Harder mobs, better gear? And then – even harder mobs, even better gear?
This “progression” is what resulted in the insane concept of monster levels and the infernal machine in D3, which imo is the most stupid approach I ever encountered.

Lots more games take a gear progression approach and since they are highly successful I seriously doubt it could be coined as stupid. Not to your taste maybe.

The facts are when folks feel that they have done all they can in a game and there is nothign else to do then they just quit. The arguement that people can come back at anytime while is valid is also a misconception. When people leave they usually go on to something else. They invest their time, money etc which means they are less likely to leave that to come back to a game that they left due to one thing or another in the first place.

Take WoW for instance. Played it for years. I eventually grew tired of the direction it was going. Apprantly the new expansion is better than expected, but I still wont go back due to having invested my time and money in GW2.

People are not asking for GW2 to be another WoW clone on the whole. Most are realising atm the endgame is limited and are making suggestions to address that. In the pursuit of perfection, no stone should be left unturned.

CoD is also still successful, everybody says it’s getting more stupid with each release though. People are also watching stupid TV shows. Success doesn’t necessarily tell you anything about quality.
WoW had to be designed the way it was designed because people had to stay and pay monthly fees. Fewer people can still generate a high transaction volume with the micropayment path ANet chose if it’s done right. You simply get more money from less people, it still works out. No loss if somebody quits playing.

Another issue with all this is the way armour is stored. If everything is cosmetic we sure as hell need larger bank slots to store all this stuff. Unless they want us to spend ages amassing it and then having to destroy to make room.

Iruwen.3164:

WoW had to be designed the way it was designed because people had to stay and pay monthly fees. Fewer people can still generate a high transaction volume with the micropayment path ANet chose if it’s done right. You simply get more money from less people, it still works out. No loss if somebody quits playing.

its not just one individual. those 1’s soon add up to lots.

Gear progression is what games add when they have 0 content, so they hold people in a gear treadmill doing the same thing again and again.

In GW2, people can have the “Been There, Done That” title without even doing half the achievements you can get.

There is no need to stay in one spot grinding. There’s lots to see already.

-1 for this suggestion, no end game gear progression is one of the best things on this game :P none wants to grind 2 months till he can get into a specific dungeon…

Lutharr.1035:

Another issue with all this is the way armour is stored. If everything is cosmetic we sure as hell need larger bank slots to store all this stuff. Unless they want us to spend ages amassing it and then having to destroy to make room.

I don’t understand why some people take the view that because there is a lot of different types of armour in the game, that means that one of the objectives of the game is to collect all of the different types of armour.

It just isn’t. The devs don’t want you to spend ages amassing it. Get a set you like, hell, go crazy, get three, but then… STOP.

Chamone.6890:

Lutharr.1035:

Another issue with all this is the way armour is stored. If everything is cosmetic we sure as hell need larger bank slots to store all this stuff. Unless they want us to spend ages amassing it and then having to destroy to make room.

I don’t understand why some people take the view that because there is a lot of different types of armour in the game, that means that one of the objectives of the game is to collect all of the different types of armour.

It just isn’t. The devs don’t want you to spend ages amassing it. Get a set you like, hell, go crazy, get three, but then… STOP.

So you think what your able to like should be based on how much room you have in the bank? ok. If they fulfil their promise of fast content that will = more armour to collect. Fine if the games planning to only be around for a short while. But I feel they have a longer game plan.

[Edit]

[Edited by CC: Off-topic quote and answer removed]

Chamone.6890:

Lutharr.1035:

Another issue with all this is the way armour is stored. If everything is cosmetic we sure as hell need larger bank slots to store all this stuff. Unless they want us to spend ages amassing it and then having to destroy to make room.

I don’t understand why some people take the view that because there is a lot of different types of armour in the game, that means that one of the objectives of the game is to collect all of the different types of armour.

It just isn’t. The devs don’t want you to spend ages amassing it. Get a set you like, hell, go crazy, get three, but then… STOP.

Then why the PvP locker?

Actually, if people want to collect them, they should let them, and a PvE locker should also be added.

Lutharr.1035:

Another issue with all this is the way armour is stored. If everything is cosmetic we sure as hell need larger bank slots to store all this stuff. Unless they want us to spend ages amassing it and then having to destroy to make room.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Equipment-Storage-Alternatively-Armourdex/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Create-a-Bank-Tab-For-Costumes-Town-Clothes/

That’s why these threads exist.

MithranArkanere.8957:

Then why the PvP locker?

Actually, if people want to collect them, they should let them, and a PvE locker should also be added.

PvP locker is fine. If you want to collect armours, go do it there. PvE is not an armour collection simulator, never has been, never will be.

Iruwen.3164:

Lutharr.1035:

Another issue with all this is the way armour is stored. If everything is cosmetic we sure as hell need larger bank slots to store all this stuff. Unless they want us to spend ages amassing it and then having to destroy to make room.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Equipment-Storage-Alternatively-Armourdex/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Create-a-Bank-Tab-For-Costumes-Town-Clothes/

That’s why these threads exist.

i know this. Still didnt stop it being relevant in this thread

TheDaiBish.9735:

Taemek.1602:

Character progression improvement = content.

Content sells, not fluff.

In that case then, Player Housing, Mini-Games, Holiday Events, Jumping Puzzles, World Boss Fights ect aren’t content, but fluff? Since they don’t offer character improvement.

Content = stuff to do. Not character progression.

No, you are taking it out of context. If any of those things are beneficial to a players ability to progress ones character, then no, it is not fluff.

Events, Puzzles, Boss fights all these things give achievement points, points that get used to progress your guild which in turn is then used to progress your character in PvP or PvE. See the trend here? Progress. Beneficial progression.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Taemek.1602:

As more and more people hit 80 and realize there is no real endgame content, they will leave after a few weeks and more and more threads about this issue are being made on a weekly basis now. It started off with a minority amount of players vocally displaying thier issues with it a month or so ago and they got shut down with a bunch of dribble, now, more and more of the community is feeling it.

And how is that the games fault? Right from the beginning ANet stated there would be no gear progression, and that it’d follow the same model as GW1 which was hunting for skins and refining your build.

As for your ‘no real endgame content’ comment, define real endgame content?

Raids? Gear Progression? Because that’s the only thing missing at cap that’s in other games. Because, you know, they did say these wouldn’t be in there. It’s hardly ANet’s fault that people need bigger numbers as an incentive to play.

Constant character progression = endgame content. it has nothing to do with numbers, adventure is a form of progression in of itself, it is a pity you lack the imagination and live inside a square box and have to resort to thinking it is about something as trivial as numbers.

Draw a picture around that however you like.

Chamone.6890:

Lutharr.1035:

Chamone.6890:

OP: No. No. No. No. No.

Go play WoW if you want this.

Go think of a better arguement. Hating WoW aint a valid arguement.

I’m not going to get too far into this debate, as I can feel the stupid resonating off you from here. I will say this though:

Guild Wars 2 is not a Gear Grind MMO. There are dozens of other MMOs in the world, and the vast majority of them are Gear Grind MMOs.

The reason for most MMOs being Gear Grind based is to keep people playing, either to keep them paying subs or buying stuff from cash shop.

Guild Wars 2 has chosen a different path, aiming to keep people playing by making the game actually fun to play, rather than using psychological tricks to make it addictive.

World of Warcraft is probably the best of the Gear Grind MMOs (kind of like being the best log floating in the toilet), which is why I would suggest if you acutally want Gear Grind for some weird reason, you should go play it.

The End.

Oh Im now stupid am I? Based on what then? The fact that I judge something by its merits or flaws and notkittendurp i must hate anything that WoW has cos I need to pretend to be one of the cool kids. What irritates me the most are people like you who dont have any spine yet will throw insults around on the net cos the person aint there infront of you. Bravo for proving what kind of person you are.

As I mentioned in another thread, all you ever do is shoot down anything peopel suggest adding to the game. So you want the shipped box as is and no improvements. Yup I can see Anet doing loads of buisness with that mentallity. Thankfully the people running the game have more going on upstairs than some hater.

No simple NO!

I like GW2 cause they took away the stat wars and made it cosmetic , we dont need a new WoW clone MMO running amok!

This is game is fine the way it is , please dont implement major changes like this.

Taemek.1602:

No, you are taking it out of context. If any of those things are beneficial to a players ability to progress ones character, then no, it is not fluff.

Events, Puzzles, Boss fights all these things give achievement points, points that get used to progress your guild which in turn is then used to progress your character in PvP or PvE. See the trend here? Progress. Beneficial progression.

Achievement Points have no use in-game. Therefore they’re not beneficial.

“These points do not have any use, but are shown explicitly on your character selection screen and achievement window and can be seen by other members of your guild and party.” http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Achievement

Taemek.1602:

Constant character progression = endgame content. it has nothing to do with numbers, adventure is a form of progression in of itself, it is a pity you lack the imagination and live inside a square box and have to resort to thinking it is about something as trivial as numbers.

Draw a picture around that however you like.

Well, considering we’re commenting in a thread about end-game gear progression, it seemed that you were agreeing with having gear progression.

I agree with you that there needs to be more stuff to do at end-game, but I disagree that it needs to be gear treadmill. I’ve suggested a few things myself:

• Daily Order and Pact Missions (shame they used the story to raise our rank, otherwise it could have been made into a title track.)
• Nicolas the Traveler and Traveler’s Gifts (Ameranth would be a good NPC for this)
• Labyrinths (massive puzzles for groups)

Taemek.1602:

Constant character progression = endgame content. it has nothing to do with numbers, adventure is a form of progression in of itself, it is a pity you lack the imagination and live inside a square box and have to resort to thinking it is about something as trivial as numbers.

This specific thread is all about stats and grind (again). If you make a good proposal that’s not based on this game mechanic, I’m all in. Unfortunately, everybody seems to lack the imagination required to create other motivating forms of “endgame content”. I guess it’s easier to just insult people.

/e: what TheDaiBish said.

Lutharr.1035:

Oh Im now stupid am I? Based on what then? The fact that I judge something by its merits or flaws and notkittendurp i must hate anything that WoW has cos I need to pretend to be one of the cool kids. What irritates me the most are people like you who dont have any spine yet will throw insults around on the net cos the person aint there infront of you. Bravo for proving what kind of person you are.

Point proven I feel.

Lutharr.1035:

As I mentioned in another thread, all you ever do is shoot down anything peopel suggest adding to the game. So you want the shipped box as is and no improvements. Yup I can see Anet doing loads of buisness with that mentallity. Thankfully the people running the game have more going on upstairs than some hater.

They have sold 2 million units and counting with no “Endgame” or Gear Grind to speak of. Yes, I do want the game “as is”. I really like the game as it is now, which is why I bought it, and why I’ve spent over 300 hours playing it.

Of course there is room for improvement, which is why I’m even in this forum in the first place, but the improvement certainly is not “add gear grind”.

Thankfully the people running the game have more sense than to churn out yet another Gear Grind MMO and have it fail.

If they changed it into one now, I think that would be a huge mistake.

Chamone.6890:

Lutharr.1035:

Oh Im now stupid am I? Based on what then? The fact that I judge something by its merits or flaws and notkittendurp i must hate anything that WoW has cos I need to pretend to be one of the cool kids. What irritates me the most are people like you who dont have any spine yet will throw insults around on the net cos the person aint there infront of you. Bravo for proving what kind of person you are.

Point proven I feel.

Shows the limit of your arguements when all you can say is point proven when you dont have the ability to prove the point.

Lutharr.1035:

As I mentioned in another thread, all you ever do is shoot down anything peopel suggest adding to the game. So you want the shipped box as is and no improvements. Yup I can see Anet doing loads of buisness with that mentallity. Thankfully the people running the game have more going on upstairs than some hater.

Chamone.6890:

They have sold 2 million units and counting with no “Endgame” or Gear Grind to speak of. Yes, I do want the game “as is”. I really like the game as it is now, which is why I bought it, and why I’ve spent over 300 hours playing it.

Of course there is room for improvement, which is why I’m even in this forum in the first place, but the improvement certainly is not “add gear grind”.

Thankfully the people running the game have more sense than to churn out yet another Gear Grind MMO and have it fail.

If they changed it into one now, I think that would be a huge mistake.[/quote]
Funny thing is no one is asking for another gear grind mmo. People have listed alternatives which wont effect you in your little bubble.

If they dont make improvements or expand, the game dies. No matter how you try to argue otherwise. People run out of things to do so search for something else.

K. So how do you reward progression at 80 without making gear better? It’s a kitten good question. It’s the main flaw of a level-based system, no matter how transparent A-Net wants to make the levels (by having systems such as scaling). Once level progression stops, something has to take its place. Crafting progression? For some characters, sure. But some have been leveling their professions since the start, so it’s not a guaranteed span like 1-80. Exploration progression? It certainly provides an incentive to revisit some low level areas, but the problem is those who have been exploring on their way to 80. Once they hit max level, they’ll probably only need 2-3 more zones to get “Been there. Done that.” That provides, oh, roughly 10 hours of content, if you rush. Legendaries? Yeah, that’s the main grind here. But one logically asks: “If they’re willing to have unique, epic weapons that take a lot of Karma/Gold/Work to obtain, why can’t they do that with armor?” Is it a bad question? Is it so bad if we have epic armors that, like Legendaries, aren’t SUPER AMAZING 200% BETTER than exotics, but that still look amazing?

The fact is, some people already see Legendaries as pointless because they’re not that much better than exotics. If you’re going to have a system where a person must work very hard for something, they have to feel rewarded at the end. Some people feel rewarded with a cool skin and custom animations. Most people feel rewarded with something more substantial, like better stats or perhaps a skill that is usable only by that Legendary (weapon special attack).

If you don’t want a gear grind – in terms of tiered progression that gate future content – that’s understandable. I don’t really want that, either. But cosmetic progression, while suitable to some, is utterly meaningless to others. Those people, I feel, must find another MMO. It’s just the sucky truth.

It amazes me how many people didn’t do any research into this game before buying it. Anet will NEVER have gear progression in GW2. They’ve made that very clear since day one.

Corax.7381:

Those people, I feel, must find another MMO. It’s just the sucky truth.

Until Anet comes out and says that people will make these suggestions. They paid the exact same as everyone else so their opinon is of as much value as those opposed to it.

Anet is a buisness who have to listen to paying customers if they want them to remain so. If they dont they lose money. They have wages to pay.

no gear progression!!!

There are plenty of games that have it, if that is what you crave. It has no place in Guild Wars 2.

Corax.7381:

Once level progression stops, something has to take its place.

Not sure I agree with you there, sport.

Why does there have to be progression of any kind? Just because it’s an MMO and that’s the way every other MMO does it?

We’re playing a game that’s trying to break out of that mould.

Let’s look at some of the most successful games of all time:

Streetfighter 2
Super Mario World
Sonic the Hedgehog
Minecraft
Portal

In all of those games, there is no “levelling”, no “stat progression”, you are the exact same character at the very end of the game as you are at the start. No matter how many hours you put in, you still have the same skills and abilities.

In many ways, GW2 is like this. Yes, there is a bit of progression at the start, but eventually you hit the plateau. You’re level 80, with full exotics and all skills unlocked, your character is as powerful as it’s ever going to be.

To me, that’s not the end of the game, that’s the start.

I think everyone is forgetting that there is probably no possible way to please everybody, many people like the game as it is (myself included) and many people would like it to follow a little more the MMO mainstream, but maybe for those of the second group this isn’t the right game for them, and that’s fine I think.
I’ve played many games in my life, and I’ve liked games that are rated as crap by most people and hated games that everybody sees as gaming wonders (Skyrim for example). But in both cases, I can’t really complain because, if I like a game I’ll keep playing it, and if I don’t I just move along and try something different.
I really don’t think anyone can come up with a game that everybody loves.

Corax.7381:

K. So how do you reward progression at 80 without making gear better? It’s a kitten good question. It’s the main flaw of a level-based system, no matter how transparent A-Net wants to make the levels (by having systems such as scaling). Once level progression stops, something has to take its place. Crafting progression? For some characters, sure. But some have been leveling their professions since the start, so it’s not a guaranteed span like 1-80. Exploration progression? It certainly provides an incentive to revisit some low level areas, but the problem is those who have been exploring on their way to 80. Once they hit max level, they’ll probably only need 2-3 more zones to get “Been there. Done that.” That provides, oh, roughly 10 hours of content, if you rush. Legendaries? Yeah, that’s the main grind here. But one logically asks: “If they’re willing to have unique, epic weapons that take a lot of Karma/Gold/Work to obtain, why can’t they do that with armor?” Is it a bad question? Is it so bad if we have epic armors that, like Legendaries, aren’t SUPER AMAZING 200% BETTER than exotics, but that still look amazing?

The fact is, some people already see Legendaries as pointless because they’re not that much better than exotics. If you’re going to have a system where a person must work very hard for something, they have to feel rewarded at the end. Some people feel rewarded with a cool skin and custom animations. Most people feel rewarded with something more substantial, like better stats or perhaps a skill that is usable only by that Legendary (weapon special attack).

If you don’t want a gear grind – in terms of tiered progression that gate future content – that’s understandable. I don’t really want that, either. But cosmetic progression, while suitable to some, is utterly meaningless to others. Those people, I feel, must find another MMO. It’s just the sucky truth.

Sad thing is, people seem to forget that even GW1 had gear progression.

Every game has some type of gear progression in it or grind of some sort. Take that away and you have a small player base to sell a game too.

Cash based games need large numbers and besides, trying to compare GW1 to GW2 is moot because GW1 is based of a older time in the MMORPG genre. Times have changed and what people have come to expect from games have changed also.

Look at how many games have failed or have extremelly low populations now because they have failed at trying to stick to a older template or even failed at trying something new.

The best thing Anet can do here is, appease to both sides of the fence.

Guild Wars had even less stat progression for gear. Most of the game, especially once the expansions started coming out, occurred at max level. I think it’s great that this is more or less the same for Guild Wars 2, though the leveling experience is obviously much longer and more interesting. Playing the various aspects of the game to enjoy them is better, to me, than turning dungeons or other activities into things I feel I "have" to do to progress my stats.

Chamone.6890:

Corax.7381:

Once level progression stops, something has to take its place.

Not sure I agree with you there, sport.

Why does there have to be progression of any kind? Just because it’s an MMO and that’s the way every other MMO does it?

We’re playing a game that’s trying to break out of that mould.

Let’s look at some of the most successful games of all time:

Streetfighter 2
Super Mario World
Sonic the Hedgehog
Minecraft
Portal

In all of those games, there is no “levelling”, no “stat progression”, you are the exact same character at the very end of the game as you are at the start. No matter how many hours you put in, you still have the same skills and abilities.

In many ways, GW2 is like this. Yes, there is a bit of progression at the start, but eventually you hit the plateau. You’re level 80, with full exotics and all skills unlocked, your character is as powerful as it’s ever going to be.

To me, that’s not the end of the game, that’s the start.

Wrong genre and platform types, nothing to do with the topic at hand I am afraid.

Also, just to pull your example back on topic, almost all them games in todays genre, have some type of character progression.

Corax.7381:

If you don’t want a gear grind – in terms of tiered progression that gate future content – that’s understandable. I don’t really want that, either. But cosmetic progression, while suitable to some, is utterly meaningless to others. Those people, I feel, must find another MMO. It’s just the sucky truth.

And you need to realize gear grinding and gated progression is utterly meaningless to others as well. I always quit MMOs near or at level cap because I know there is nothing meaningful at the end. That is until GW2, which is why I bought it.

If raid-type gear progression is added, I will uninstall the day it is announced and never touch the game again.

Lutharr.1035

Anet is a buisness who have to listen to paying customers if they want them to remain so. If they dont they lose money. They have wages to pay.

Heh, I don’t have a quote option (weird) so I’m doing it with tags manually!

Anyways, A-Net has to “listen” to every paying customer’s opinion, but they only have to pay attention to those who A] Make logical, constructive suggestions, B] Align with THEIR vision of the game – because yes, it’s their game, they designed it, they keep it running, and they don’t want it to be like certain other MMOs – and C] Understand point B. Now, I’m not saying A-Net is going to completely ignore something that may not necessarily align with their vision of the game, but that would substantially improve it in the eyes of the majority – they’re going to be flexible if they want to be successful. However, they will draw the line on some things, and if you don’t like it, you have many other choices.

Chamone.6890

Why does there have to be progression of any kind? Just because it’s an MMO and that’s the way every other MMO does it?

You’re probably going to disagree, and that’s fine, but the simple reason is because the base ingredient of any MMO is competition. No, that doesn’t mean whacking someone’s face in with your hammer in PvP. It can be any sort of competition: Direct (PvP), indirect (levels, both 1-80 and levels of skill in anything, be it PvP, PvE, doing jump puzzles…), and even illusionary (“My gear looks cooler than yours!”). When you’re playing with other people in an MMO, the main driving force for the majority of players is improving yourself. Why? Why does that matter? Because you’re competing with everyone else.

It sounds like you loathe WoW, but it’s easy to understand why the tiered gear progression in that game works so well. A maxed player realizes that although he’s max level, he’s got a whole meta-game to play through. He sees the elite raiders of the world and envies their skill (subjective, some people think raiding doesn’t take skill) and their gear. He wants to be like them, but the only way to do that is to grind through the lower tiers. When examining it from the outside, it’s a bad system, and we’ve had it for too long. But while you’re doing it, it’s not so horrible, especially if you haven’t done it before.

That kind of system won’t work in GW2, and A-Net shouldn’t even try. But when they say “the whole game is the endgame!”, we have a problem. If the whole game was the endgame, there’d be no level cap. You provided great examples of non-MMOs which prove the point, but to keep things in context, look at a sandbox MMO. You’re not bound by anything except your proficiency in certain arbitrary skills, and just as with levels, you work to improve them. But in a properly designed sandbox, either one of two things will happen: You realize it’s very easy to become powerful, and that opens up the rest of the game for just messing around for fun (this is where GW2 is right now) or you realize it will take years to become powerful, but so long as you don’t FEEL weak, you will keep progressing (this is where a game like EVE Online is).

So, yeah, GW2 may be trying to break out of the mold, but it’s using an outdated system (1-80 levels) that severely bind it and lead to problems like this.

The nice thing about having a level playing field is that the “competition” is more competitive. Instead of stat difference being a contributing factor to fluff the outcome it comes down to personal build and skill.

Speaking of personal builds. Does everyone talking about personal progression realize there are these things called traits in the game? There’s your progression right there. This isn’t like most other MMOs where a defined trait path is indisputably the best and therefor required to be competitive. There’s all kinds of things you can do with them to make yourself better, to say nothing of trying other weapons with your build.

ANET has announced and very vividly expressed their intention to never do a gear treadmill. Dai Bish’s idea about slight bonuses that are only active in specific fields of use is a nice compromise between giving players something to feel like their stats have progressed (even though they wouldn’t) without resorting to everything loathsome about the gear grind.

Building on Dai Bish’s idea… those sigils we see with “deal [x]% more damage to this enemy type” could be set bonuses on the appropriate dungeon armor. That way the more of a dungeon’s theme armor you get, the more effective you are at getting it/killing things in that specific dungeon. It’s not like many people use those sigils anyway when it comes right down to it. This is a way for players to use some semblance of those effects without necessarily shafting themselves by ignoring much less restrictive options and it would not affect the greater balance of the gameplay between players.

On the mold of levels: yes GW2 could do without it without much changing unreasonably as a result, but the concept is hardly outdated. That it needs to have a gear treadmill associated with it in order to be effective on its own is absurd.

And you need to realize gear grinding and gated progression is utterly meaningless to others as well. I always quit MMOs near or at level cap because I know there is nothing meaningful at the end. That is until GW2, which is why I bought it.

If raid-type gear progression is added, I will uninstall the day it is announced and never touch the game again.

Does this mean you will quit when they add an expasion in the game?

Taemek.1602:

And you need to realize gear grinding and gated progression is utterly meaningless to others as well. I always quit MMOs near or at level cap because I know there is nothing meaningful at the end. That is until GW2, which is why I bought it.

If raid-type gear progression is added, I will uninstall the day it is announced and never touch the game again.

Does this mean you will quit when they add an expasion in the game?

And here’s the “other MMO” mentality. Why does an expansion need to raise the cap on anything? How long did GW1 run for and how many times did the level cap or gear stat cap go up with content updates or expansions?

Let’s look at it this way. The Elder Dragons are supposed to be our Huge Threat in this game (hints of a Source that would clearly be the Final Encounter type deal, but that’s beside the point as of yet). The players can already fight against two of them. Are the others substantially more powerful with no explanation?

Archmortal.1027:

Taemek.1602:

And you need to realize gear grinding and gated progression is utterly meaningless to others as well. I always quit MMOs near or at level cap because I know there is nothing meaningful at the end. That is until GW2, which is why I bought it.

If raid-type gear progression is added, I will uninstall the day it is announced and never touch the game again.

Does this mean you will quit when they add an expasion in the game?

And here’s the “other MMO” mentality. Why does an expansion need to raise the cap on anything? How long did GW1 run for and how many times did the level cap or gear stat cap go up with content updates or expansions?

Let’s look at it this way. The Elder Dragons are supposed to be our Huge Threat in this game (hints of a Source that would clearly be the Final Encounter type deal, but that’s beside the point as of yet). The players can already fight against two of them. Are the others substantially more powerful with no explanation?

How much content was added to the game over that same amount of time?

Chamone.6890:

[…]

PvP locker is fine. If you want to collect armours, go do it there. PvE is not an armour collection simulator, never has been, never will be.

I always found amusing how some people use “x simulator” as a derogatory term, and quite often wrong.

If you can collect gear that doesn’t make it a ‘armor collection simulator’. It just allows you to do so, much like having Polymock doesn’t make the game into a Pokemon clone, it’s just one more thing added among the many you can do in the game.

To be an ‘armor collector simulator’ the whole game would have to be built around that, and a real concept of an armor collector would have exist.
And it does, there’s people who collect armors in real life. They do that in halls and museums and such, put in display.

The PvP locker is nothing like that. It’s not a ‘personal instance’ with all your armors on display. It just lets you keep the ones you already got when you get a new one, so you don’t lose what you got, without having to have more storage than the game currently has.
You don’t stop playing if your objective was to get this or that armor, and getting a new one would mean having to discard the previous ones.
If you can keep them all, you can keep playing without worrying about that.

Doesn’t take anything from those who do not use it, and adds for those who want it.
The only possible reasons against it would have to be technical.

dangerhunt.2607:

I have a level 80 character running the explore dungeons for past few weeks. The goal obviously is trying to get the better gears. But after I have farmed enough AC tokens to get the whole armor sets and weapons I desire to use, I find myself wondering what’s next for me. I have no reason to try to farm other dungeons any longer, since they all give out same stats of armor sets, only with different look to it. My friends has also stopped running explore dungeons because there isn’t better armors and weapons to farm in the game.

It would be nice if Arena net could make all explore mode dungeons unlock at level 80. You need to farm enough from first explore dungeon, so you can get enough tokens to buy armors, therefore prepare yourself for second(even harder) explore dungeon and so on.

I am not worry about my character being too powerful in 1-15 zone, the truth is my friends and I rarely go back to the lower level zone for dynamic events anymore. Few times we have gone back are for dungeons and halloween event(collecting candy corns). Besides, We have find ourselves super powerful in lower level zone anyways. I could even complete most of the dynamic events just by myself.

I feel the cool weapon skins could only carry the game so far, the stats are what’s important. Everytime I pick up an armor piece, I am looking at the stats first then judge on the look later. Guild wars 2 is an awsome game, I just hope it can give more reasons for people like me to stay in the beautiful world of Tyria longer.

I think what OP was trying to present is that he enjoyed this game very much and intend to spend more and more time in GW2. However as a traditional MMORPG player we are used to the style that we all used to grind for better “stats” instead of just the “look of it”. It sort of the thinking of the utilitarian, that we are actually working towards something other than “beauty”.

What I’m trying to state IMO is if we really think deeper about it. We are grinding just so that we can stop grinding and do things that we like. If you only interested grinding then pretty much the achievement feel we left is bound to a boring and painful process which I would highly doubt to be enjoyable as of now.

One thing is for sure that player do “need” the feel of a “better” in maybe stats or some sort of achievement. So maybe there are more challenge can be add to the dungeons or some harder event chain challenges so that those players who did that may got some award to be able to gain some strength for some period of time and also be “different looking”

Another thing is taking another perspective. Those booster sold in the store is consider a “stat bonus” so that if u grind for gold and then buy those things you are essentially “stat better” and the cost is actually maybe less than a traditional “wow” grind. It’s just not that to be a show off.

Lutharr.1035:

Corax.7381:

Those people, I feel, must find another MMO. It’s just the sucky truth.

Until Anet comes out and says that people will make these suggestions. They paid the exact same as everyone else so their opinon is of as much value as those opposed to it.

Anet is a buisness who have to listen to paying customers if they want them to remain so. If they dont they lose money. They have wages to pay.

And people should notice that for everyone that wants to change another does not.
What now?

1) They can stay to the way they said the game would be and lose players.

2) They can change , and lose players.

See? Dont matter to them simple cause picking your way wont make them stop players from leaving.

I think you have enough content for a $60 game. If you feel you don’t have what to do, thengo and buy a PS3 game or an Xbox game and see the difference