Guild Wars 2

Traveler’s, explorer’s etc… Items which lose 41% of their stats in exchange for a better chance for better drops.

A player using +magic find will be less useful for the group than a player who doesn’t, not just slightly less useful, but actually around 20% less useful on average, when taking into account base stats and armor ratings.
Some might argue, that the player using +magic find compensates for this by playing better, but that’s a pointless argument, since it assumes that +magic find is only used by people who are around 25% better or more energetic than those who don’t.

Let’s look at this dilemma a bit closer.
If it’s needed to use +magic find, it means that the game itself is flawed in a way, that the drops are worse than they should normally.
If +magic find is not needed, then why give a monetary advantage to people who do less than the others?
Also, if having 41% less stats on your armor is enough, and anything over that is excess, wouldn’t it mean the game is flawed, because the content is too easy, or that there shouldn’t even be that “extra” 69% stats in the first place.
either case, everything points toward +magic find as something that shouldn’t be in a balanced game.

This only applies to armor, weapons and accessories. You don’t remove anything by using consumables.

Unanimous.1486:

tems which lose 41% of their stats in exchange for a better chance for better drops.

but actually around 20% less useful on average, when taking into account base stats and armor ratings.

who are around 25% better

And how exactly did you arrive at these figures?

Let’s look at this dilemma a bit closer.
If it’s needed to use +magic find, it means that the game itself is flawed in a way, that the drops are worse than they should normally.
If +magic find is not needed, then why give a monetary advantage to people who do less than the others?

It’s not a question of whether it’s needed or not. It’s a question of efficiency. People will always do everything they can to get the best result per unit of time spent. Even if the drops were fair, they would still do it, because that would get them more.

And you cannot really say that they are doing any less. For example, people in Knight’s Armor get the same amount of Power and Precision, but they get an additional ton of Toughness. Well that Toughness doesn’t improve their power, so screw them, right? What about combinations like Vitality/Power/Healing or Healing/Power/Toughness?

You obviously cannot say that more Toughness makes Player A more of an asset than player B. After all, Toughness does not mean Armor, which is all that matters. Similarly, all the defense in the world is worth much less than good dodging ability. Same is obviously true for Vitality.

And how would you compare someone with Power/Toughness/Vitality to someone who has Healing/Power/Toughness? Or to someone with Precision/Power/CD?

Also, if having 41% less stats on your armor is enough, and anything over that is excess, wouldn’t it mean the game is flawed, because the content is too easy, or that there shouldn’t even be that “extra” 69% stats in the first place.

41% less results in the remainder being 59%, by the way.

Olba.5376:

And how exactly did you arrive at these figures?

101 / (101+72+72) = 0.41… = 41%
72 / 101 = 0.71… = 0.71 = 71%
981(main stat amount) x 0.71 = 782 (secondary stat amount).
1698/(1897+165) = 1698/2062 = 0.82. with runes. (+165 is for the main stat).
1998/2362 = 0.845… = 0.85. with full trait line bonus and runes.

So the difference varies from 18 to 15% less stats depending on how much you’ve invested in the trait line that gives you the stat.

Olba.5376:

It’s not a question of whether it’s needed or not. It’s a question of efficiency. People will always do everything they can to get the best result per unit of time spent. Even if the drops were fair, they would still do it, because that would get them more.

And you cannot really say that they are doing any less. For example, people in Knight’s Armor get the same amount of Power and Precision, but they get an additional ton of Toughness. Well that Toughness doesn’t improve their power, so screw them, right? What about combinations like Vitality/Power/Healing or Healing/Power/Toughness?

You obviously cannot say that more Toughness makes Player A more of an asset than player B. After all, Toughness does not mean Armor, which is all that matters. Similarly, all the defense in the world is worth much less than good dodging ability. Same is obviously true for Vitality.

And how would you compare someone with Power/Toughness/Vitality to someone who has Healing/Power/Toughness? Or to someone with Precision/Power/CD?

A person who has the main stat of his/her armor the stat he/she uses for a specific purpose, will always be more effective in said purpose than a person who has 15-18% less stats than he/she.
What’s more, the difference is alarmingly big when it’s about non-pow/pre/tough/vit main stat of an item.
For example, healing power.
697/1146 = 0.608
997/1346 = 0.74 (full trait).
The amount of healing power you have is 39 – 26 % less than one who uses it for his/her main stat.
Though I have yet to find a piece with +magic find and healing power, so realistically.
300/1346 = 0.22…
A whopping 78% less healing power. if you went for +magic find.
Empower heals 1800 at 300 healing power.
Empower heals 2900 at 1400 healing power.
1800/2900 = 0.62.
1005/1830 = 0.549 = 0.55
1090/1442 = 0.755 = 0.76
So, depending on your spell, your healing is 24-45% less effective, if you use +magic find.

Olba.5376:

41% less results in the remainder being 59%, by the way.

0.41/0.59 = 0.694… = 0.69.
the 41% is 69% more to the 59%, if the 59% was the full 100%.

Now about roles, which you seem to be oblivious of:
damage done = weapon dmg x power / armor
lets use D = X/A
A full knight’s has around 3500 armor = Ak
Full heavy armor = 1211 armor.
base toughness is 916.
so no knight’s = 2127 armor. = Aa
Ak = 1.65Aa
so
Dk = 0.606Da.

basically, a full knight’s has 65% more hp than no knight’s. This also “amplifies” healing done to you by 65% aswell.

Still, this can all be simplified:

A person with magic find will always be less effective than someone without.
a travelers/explorer’s will always be less tanky or deals less dmg or heals much less than a knight’s/berserker’s/cleric’s.

There is absolutely no sense in favoring those who do less.

Let’s make an extreme example, if you didn’t understand my point:
If someone did nothing at all during an instance. Just stood there. But for some reason Anet thinks that this person is more important than the 4 others, and decides, that he should get ten times as much drops as any of the rest.

right now it’s not that extreme.
It’s 20-40% less effect, but 200% more rewards.
my example was just 5 times as bad as it is now.

Last time I checked I was in full MF gear, and mobs still died. QQ moar pl0x.

Agyaggalamb.4796:

Last time I checked I was in full MF gear, and mobs still died. QQ moar pl0x.

You are advocating that drops are not good enough and that gear is too good aswell.
You’re actually a prime example to show what’s wrong with +magic find.
Thank you for your outstanding input.

My problem with MF is that it’s not working the majority of the time i wear it. When i have 0 MF on then I get more drops and more greens then anything (and occasionally I get rares) I calculated today (if they all stack that is) that I estimate my MF to be about 278% when i have my full set with pirate runes, omnom bars, both guild buffs going at once and my luck rune is at full 25 buffs and I still get nothing most of the time.

There’s something wrong with this. Why does it drop less when the % is so high when it should do the opposite, why do i get more greys with this then at any other time, and why does it not have an indicator somewhere on my character screen telling me what my real percentage is at?

tigirius.9014:

My problem with MF is that it’s not working the majority of the time i wear it. When i have 0 MF on then I get more drops and more greens then anything (and occasionally I get rares) I calculated today (if they all stack that is) that I estimate my MF to be about 278% when i have my full set with pirate runes, omnom bars, both guild buffs going at once and my luck rune is at full 25 buffs and I still get nothing most of the time.

There’s something wrong with this. Why does it drop less when the % is so high when it should do the opposite, why do i get more greys with this then at any other time, and why does it not have an indicator somewhere on my character screen telling me what my real percentage is at?

It only increases chances, doesn’t make anything certain.

You could toss a coin a million times and get nothing but tails. Statistically improbable, but it can happen.

The real question here is, how much stats did you sacrifice?

Unanimous.1486:

Agyaggalamb.4796:

Last time I checked I was in full MF gear, and mobs still died. QQ moar pl0x.

You are advocating that drops are not good enough and that gear is too good aswell.
You’re actually a prime example to show what’s wrong with +magic find.
Thank you for your outstanding input.

So, we had rank elitism in GW1, now let’s introduce gear elitism in GW2? Thanks but no thanks.

You claim that it’s not as effective as other gears. (I did AC in green gear and nobody gave a flying kitten about it, yet we succeeded.) But let’s say you’re right and it’s not really as effective. Result? I go out and kill mobs a bit slower, and in return I got the chance for better rewards. Still can’t see the problem with it.

Also please don’t act like it would be impossible to do any dungeon if one member of the party is in full MF gear. It’s clearly not, even if all party members were in ful MF gear.

Agyaggalamb.4796:

Unanimous.1486:

Agyaggalamb.4796:

Last time I checked I was in full MF gear, and mobs still died. QQ moar pl0x.

You are advocating that drops are not good enough and that gear is too good aswell.
You’re actually a prime example to show what’s wrong with +magic find.
Thank you for your outstanding input.

So, we had rank elitism in GW1, now let’s introduce gear elitism in GW2? Thanks but no thanks.

You claim that it’s not as effective as other gears. (I did AC in green gear and nobody gave a flying kitten about it, yet we succeeded.) But let’s say you’re right and it’s not really as effective. Result? I go out and kill mobs a bit slower, and in return I got the chance for better rewards. Still can’t see the problem with it.

Also please don’t act like it would be impossible to do any dungeon if one member of the party is in full MF gear. It’s clearly not, even if all party members were in ful MF gear.

Now where did I say it was impossible to do so?
let me point this out:

I go out and kill mobs a bit slower

You are admitting that you are leeching off of other people’s work.
You are contributing less but you’re getting more. Tell me how is that making any sense.

You people are constantly bringing up my points and proving them right.

I would really want an official explanation for the existance of +mf.

I support Unanimous here.

Unanimous.1486:

You are admitting that you are leeching off of other people’s work.

Please tell me how can you consider using MF gear leeching? Geez. It’s not like we wait in a dark corner until all our fellow party members kill stuff and bosses so we can grab the phat lootz.

In GW1 in FA, when people were fighting others and guys just sit on the starting points because it’s still free faction for them, now that was leeching. How on earth can you compare that to using different gear?

I could say that you could just get some MF gear also and go into dungeons. You’ll probably say that you don’t want to do that, because of this or that. You have the right to do that, and I’ll never complain about that.

I for one don’t want to waste inventory space and money on other armor pieces simply because my rare MF gear is more than capable to get the job done.

Also I don’t think that the “reduced contribution” would add hours to dungeon completion.

I support the OP 100% on this topic. Its absolutely ridiculous that anyone would even try to say they can’t see the truth in what he pointed out.

It is impossible to not be less effective when you are sacrificing a huge chunk of your stats in favor of getting more loot…at your group’s expense. You can’t hit as hard, you can’t take as many hits, you don’t heal your party for as much, etc…when you are loaded down with magic find instead of stats that actually make you valuable to your party.

Different stat combinations are fine (power/vit/toughness, power/precision/crit, etc) so long as they do something productive to help the group succeed (kill mobs faster, survive longer to eventually kill mobs). On a side note, I don’t agree with the limitation to 3 primary stats on gear…all gear should have some degree of toughness/vitality by default. What is not fine is fighting without your gear on….which is essentially what you are doing by wearing magic find instead of productive stats. All that magic find you are loaded up with ultimately equals the stats on several gear pieces…meaning you are the same as someone who decided to take off several of their gear pieces and still claim they are putting in equal work towards clearing the dungeon, etc. Yeah, you just might be the king of dodging and never take any hits while still killing mobs. You might also be the king of fail and die repeatedly due to no vit/toughness/healing…whatever stat you are sacrificing for magic find. You might also be that guy that stands in the corner or runs away when others are fighting. In any of those scenarios, you are still doing less damage output than someone properly geared for group content because you are either having to spend more effort dodging, more time running away, or more time dead…and the result is less damage done. Yes, there are fail players who do these things anyway and are properly geared, but this issue is about intentional and completely avoidable instances of this due to intentionally gearing in a way to cause this. You can’t avoid fail players as easily as you can just stop allowing gear options that specifically cause this negative effect.

I just quit another game that didn’t factor this problem in initially, Diablo 3. It was much more obvious in that game due to the ability to inspect other players and the real money auction house. Even blizzard was eventually smart enough to realize how bad of a screw up having magic find on gear was…and that’s saying a lot for blizzard to actually correct a design mistake. They eventually came up with a system to gradually shift magic find from gear to being an intrinsic reward from continued play. That was one of the smartest decisions they made in that game..but of course it was still a fail game due to the rigged loot drops and real money auction house scam they were running. This game will suffer from useless players in groups so long as they keep magic find on gear just like Diablo 3 did.

Anet has a clear opportunity now, with the introduction of ascended gear, to not put magic find on future gear. I don’t really think there is a place for magic find in this or any game like it. I agree with the OP that it is a flawed design to even offer magic find as a stat. It means that either the loot drops are not as good as they should be for all players, or that the extra stats on the non magic find gear is superfluous. I didn’t want to carry other players on my back to the loot train in D3 and I don’t want to do it in GW2.

Just to be clear, yes reduced contribution CAN increase the time it takes to complete a dungeon. IF players are dying repeatedly due to reduced stats PRODUCTIVE stats, that does delay dungeon completion. Of course the amount of the delay is extremely variable due to variable player skill. The issue is why allow one or two magic find mules to drag the other productive players down unwillingly? That metric ton of magic find you are running around with has no benefit to the rest of the group, that is providing a direct benefit to you as they carry you and your ton of personal loot to victory….that is the definition of leeching in a game like this.

Agyaggalamb.4796:

Unanimous.1486:

Agyaggalamb.4796:

Last time I checked I was in full MF gear, and mobs still died. QQ moar pl0x.

You are advocating that drops are not good enough and that gear is too good aswell.
You’re actually a prime example to show what’s wrong with +magic find.
Thank you for your outstanding input.

So, we had rank elitism in GW1, now let’s introduce gear elitism in GW2? Thanks but no thanks.

You claim that it’s not as effective as other gears. (I did AC in green gear and nobody gave a flying kitten about it, yet we succeeded.) But let’s say you’re right and it’s not really as effective. Result? I go out and kill mobs a bit slower, and in return I got the chance for better rewards. Still can’t see the problem with it.

Also please don’t act like it would be impossible to do any dungeon if one member of the party is in full MF gear. It’s clearly not, even if all party members were in ful MF gear.

We already have gear elitism in GW2, even more severe in its prequel. Just check new content!

Another thing, yes you can complete dungeon with full MF gear losing 1071 in the primary stat. Even if whole group is geared up in MF gear. Splendid right? The issue is that you contribute less for more profit_. Besides, anyone who uses MF gear in dungeons has something wrong with rational thinking. How many mobs do you kill per path in dungeon when most people skip them anyway?

Magic find is toxic in pretty much any game it’s included. It contributes to a “rich get richer” problem, for one thing- People who have the time to put together a second set of +mf gear not only benefit from all that extra time of theirs, but from better drop rates. Poor casual carl who can only play for 2 hours a night falls more and more behind his friends. That’s not good for the community.

I second Unanimous on his opinion.

In fact, ANet should remove Magic Find as soon as possible, removing all MF gear/item/consumables/mechanics from the game. This is a major concern for many of the players i talk to. Do no think for a moment that only because this topic does not have 1000 replies, players dont think about it.

It is a fail mechanic, a counter productive game design and doesnt bode for the main objective of the game: for players to have fun.

Clerigo.9475:

I second Unanimous on his opinion.

In fact, ANet should remove Magic Find as soon as possible, removing all MF gear/item/consumables/mechanics from the game. This is a major concern for many of the players i talk to. Do no think for a moment that only because this topic does not have 1000 replies, players dont think about it.

It is a fail mechanic, a counter productive game design and doesnt bode for the main objective of the game: for players to have fun.

Yeah while you talk to many that do not i like i know many that like it , me included.

When will people learnt they are most likely never on the majority? At most they are on a big group , which does not mean that there are not other big groups that disagree with you for their own reasons.

Think MF is fine , it is the player choice to use it or not. People should stop trying like always to dictate how others should play their games , even more when most posts is about how they dont want to spend money getting a second set.

Nox Aeterna.2965:

Clerigo.9475:

I second Unanimous on his opinion.

In fact, ANet should remove Magic Find as soon as possible, removing all MF gear/item/consumables/mechanics from the game. This is a major concern for many of the players i talk to. Do no think for a moment that only because this topic does not have 1000 replies, players dont think about it.

It is a fail mechanic, a counter productive game design and doesnt bode for the main objective of the game: for players to have fun.

Yeah while you talk to many that do not i like i know many that like it , me included.

When will people learnt they are most likely never on the majority? At most they are on a big group , which does not mean that there are not other big groups that disagree with you for their own reasons.

Think MF is fine , it is the player choice to use it or not. People should stop trying like always to dictate how others should play their games , even more when most posts is about how they dont want to spend money getting a second set.

The issue here, and the major problem with everyone that uses the same line of thinking as you, is that you fail to see that this is not only a question of balanced opinions, or use of right of choice. This is a concern regarding also to all those players that do not have hours per day to spend gaming, but when they do game they primary concern should be having fun doing the content of the game at the maximum capability allowed by the games laws of design that should put them at par with every gamer in the same circunstance, and not having to worry about having a magic find gear set in order to have the same chance of loot, other than understanding that a player with more game time may have better game progression, wich is an unaltered aspect of every game design out there.

Clerigo.9475:

The issue here, and the major problem with everyone that uses the same line of thinking as you, is that you fail to see that this is not only a question of balanced opinions, or use of right of choice. This is a concern regarding also to all those players that do not have hours per day to spend gaming, but when they do game they primary concern should be having fun doing the content of the game at the maximum capability allowed by the games laws of design that should put them at par with every gamer in the same circunstance, and not having to worry about having a magic find gear set in order to have the same chance of loot, other than understanding that a player with more game time may have better game progression, wich is an unaltered aspect of every game design out there.

Play till you get the gear , it is really simple really. You may take longer , but you will still be able to get it just the same.

To put it simple , i dont see any reason behind your logic other than the fact people dont want spend time getting something but still want to rewards for getting it (which is pretty much the case of the people who dont want to spend money on the set.)

An MF set it cheap , and no i dont mean only to great farmers that send all their day on grind. It is really cheap to anyone , any casual at 80 can get ori and farm a little , will get one MF set , which is usually rare or green (exo is completely unnecessary ) , very fast.

In a MMO spending time getting gear is natural , this is not a fps , if it was not the MF gear you would still rares anyway , or exos. See the point? The game will never simple allow something to login in full whites and go run a dungeon , your group , unless they are your friends , will kick you in one second , no mercy or excuses.

The reality of these posts is that MF set is no major feat , but if people can complain so they dont have to get it , just the better.

Of course you don’t see the problem….because you are the problem. I’d even agree that it is possible that a large number of gamers do like magic find…..the say way the majority of people in real life would like the opportunity to get rich quick at somebody else’ expense. The majority of people in this world would shoot you or kill you to get what you have in a heartbeat if it was allowed and had no negative consequences. People are just like that. That’s what rules and laws are for…and in this case..game design. I’m sorry that you apparently fall into the lowest common denominator category, thinking that there is nothing wrong with carrying your ton of magic find while everyone else does the heavy lifting, but I don’t think its okay…and a lot of others do not think its okay. There are plenty of other games that have also proven that it is not okay. Logic and common sense prove that it is not okay. It has nothing to do with not wanting to spend the time to get a second set for magic find. It has everything to do with not creating a handicap situation for the rest of the party…that has not agreed to carry you to victory.

ODB.6891:

Of course you don’t see the problem….because you are the problem. I’d even agree that it is possible that a large number of gamers do like magic find…..the say way the majority of people in real life would like the opportunity to get rich quick at somebody else’ expense. The majority of people in this world would shoot you or kill you to get what you have in a heartbeat if it was allowed and had no negative consequences. People are just like that. That’s what rules and laws are for…and in this case..game design. I’m sorry that you apparently fall into the lowest common denominator category, thinking that there is nothing wrong with carrying your ton of magic find while everyone else does the heavy lifting, but I don’t think its okay…and a lot of others do not think its okay. There are plenty of other games that have also proven that it is not okay. Logic and common sense prove that it is not okay. It has nothing to do with not wanting to spend the time to get a second set for magic find. It has everything to do with not creating a handicap situation for the rest of the party…that has not agreed to carry you to victory.

The problem to each side is the other. Therefore to me , you are the problem. See how things turn so easily when we base this on simple opinion not formed by anything that proves … well anything at all?

You say it was proven right? So be my guest , show the proof.

Saying something like im in the minority server no purpose , can you prove im? Cause i could say you are the minority also. And now? Who is right?

Till you bring proof , saying you are right is a subjective thing , you cant confirm.

Just negate all magic find bonuses from dungeon play.

Nox Aeterna.2965:

ODB.6891:

Of course you don’t see the problem….because you are the problem. I’d even agree that it is possible that a large number of gamers do like magic find…..the say way the majority of people in real life would like the opportunity to get rich quick at somebody else’ expense. The majority of people in this world would shoot you or kill you to get what you have in a heartbeat if it was allowed and had no negative consequences. People are just like that. That’s what rules and laws are for…and in this case..game design. I’m sorry that you apparently fall into the lowest common denominator category, thinking that there is nothing wrong with carrying your ton of magic find while everyone else does the heavy lifting, but I don’t think its okay…and a lot of others do not think its okay. There are plenty of other games that have also proven that it is not okay. Logic and common sense prove that it is not okay. It has nothing to do with not wanting to spend the time to get a second set for magic find. It has everything to do with not creating a handicap situation for the rest of the party…that has not agreed to carry you to victory.

The problem to each side is the other. Therefore to me , you are the problem. See how things turn so easily when we base this on simple opinion not formed by anything that proves … well anything at all?

You say it was proven right? So be my guest , show the proof.

Saying something like im in the minority server no purpose , can you prove im? Cause i could say you are the minority also. And now? Who is right?

Till you bring proof , saying you are right is a subjective thing , you cant confirm.

Well, it is not that hard to make proof. Im gonna try.

- With magic find: forked option, allowing players to opt for a MF as 3rd stat in detriment of one that would allow them to better play the game, just because the design is available in the game and other players are using it, thus making the player feel if he doesnt also do it he will be slow pacing his progression.

- With no magic find: everyone at same level.

Now with moving objects

- With MF: the balance is uneven, pending to one side or the other
- Without MF: the balance rests at the middle.

Ok, ok. So wait. Let me get it straight. You want anet to remove +magic find from gear because people with +mf don’t do as much dmg/don’t survive as long as ppl with toughness/vitality.? Or you just simply want them remove that stat because you’re to tight-arsed to invest some gold into a gear that will bring you more gold?
Well sure that makes perfect sense -.-’

Nox Aeterna.2965:

ODB.6891:

Of course you don’t see the problem….because you are the problem. I’d even agree that it is possible that a large number of gamers do like magic find…..the say way the majority of people in real life would like the opportunity to get rich quick at somebody else’ expense. The majority of people in this world would shoot you or kill you to get what you have in a heartbeat if it was allowed and had no negative consequences. People are just like that. That’s what rules and laws are for…and in this case..game design. I’m sorry that you apparently fall into the lowest common denominator category, thinking that there is nothing wrong with carrying your ton of magic find while everyone else does the heavy lifting, but I don’t think its okay…and a lot of others do not think its okay. There are plenty of other games that have also proven that it is not okay. Logic and common sense prove that it is not okay. It has nothing to do with not wanting to spend the time to get a second set for magic find. It has everything to do with not creating a handicap situation for the rest of the party…that has not agreed to carry you to victory.

The problem to each side is the other. Therefore to me , you are the problem. See how things turn so easily when we base this on simple opinion not formed by anything that proves … well anything at all?

You say it was proven right? So be my guest , show the proof.

Saying something like im in the minority server no purpose , can you prove im? Cause i could say you are the minority also. And now? Who is right?

Till you bring proof , saying you are right is a subjective thing , you cant confirm.

Nothing about what I said was an opinion. You want evidence…look at Diablo 3 or any other recent game that tried to implement magic find. They implemented magic find on gear and sure enough….tons of leeches in dungeons loaded up with with nothing but magic find…ignoring all other stats. Endless wipefests, players kicking each other from parties, etc. Just the single fact that blizzard then made it useless to have magic find on gear by implementing paragon levels. They made it so that once you reached max paragon level…the magic find on your gear did absolutely nothing but limit your potential. It was enough of an issue that they implemented two major game patches over this issue. There’s your proof. That is not an opinion..it is fact. The same arguments you are making now…are the one the leeches tried to make in that game…you see where that got them. The net result was magic find no longer on gear…which is the only thing that makes sense as it is taking up space where functional stats should be.

You should also read for comprehension, that I never said which group was in the minority definitively because no one can determine that accurately. What I did say was that the majority of people and subsequently players will likely go for magic find. The reasoning is because it is the easy route that allows them to leech off of the effort of others. People naturally gravitate towards the path of least resistance. Right now the game mechanics are allowing this path of least resistance to be magic find as it has the highest rewards gained from the effort of others. That is not saying you are not putting in effort too, but saying that the effort you are putting in is less effective on average due to less optimum stats.

If you are going to go as far as to quote someone…at least pay attention to what you quoted.

OP is right. There is no Magic Find Gear with Condition Damage. So, i, as a Necro, can see the difference of damage and survivalism. A

I am good. I barely die, but in fights that can last 5 only minutes, they go aroung 10 minutes, and i know is part of my fault. But, i want loot.

Remove Magic find.

Nenthil.4312:

Ok, ok. So wait. Let me get it straight. You want anet to remove +magic find from gear because people with +mf don’t do as much dmg/don’t survive as long as ppl with toughness/vitality.? Or you just simply want them remove that stat because you’re to tight-arsed to invest some gold into a gear that will bring you more gold?
Well sure that makes perfect sense -.-’

So now you are upset to the point of name calling and insults because someone is pointing out how you are leeching? Maybe that means maturity level is a factor in who uses magic find at the expense of the other people they play with? Makes perfect sense! If you were to read what was actually being said, you would already know the answer to your question….The output of the player being diminished by being replaced by a stat that only affect their personal loot drops is the issue. The only people concerned with gold in this topic are the magic find leeches. I already have a second set by the way…and its not a magic find set because I’m not that self centered. I have a glass set and a tank set. If the group has a couple guardians with near perma aegis, then I’ll run glass…otherwise I mix in tanky gear.

I see your point,but… It may sound cruel – stop puging. I know it’s hard to find a smart ppl out there for your dungeon runs but as soon as you find some good ppl you should put them on your friend list and ask them if they want to go with you. If someone is stupid enough to be a leech on your run, kick him, block him.
Don’t punish players like me who likes to solo-play running all over the world for 1-2 hours.
Any1 smart enough will have at least 2 gear sets (they are not so hard to get) and at least one would be specifically meant for dungeons run.
So stop QQ and talk more with ppl, you may find that some of them are worth knowing and a lot of them actually THINK!

ODB.6891:

Nenthil.4312:

Ok, ok. So wait. Let me get it straight. You want anet to remove +magic find from gear because people with +mf don’t do as much dmg/don’t survive as long as ppl with toughness/vitality.? Or you just simply want them remove that stat because you’re to tight-arsed to invest some gold into a gear that will bring you more gold?
Well sure that makes perfect sense -.-’

So now you are upset to the point of name calling and insults because someone is pointing out how you are leeching? Maybe that means maturity level is a factor in who uses magic find at the expense of the other people they play with? Makes perfect sense! If you were to read what was actually being said, you would already know the answer to your question….The output of the player being diminished by being replaced by a stat that only affect their personal loot drops is the issue. The only people concerned with gold in this topic are the magic find leeches. I already have a second set by the way…and its not a magic find set because I’m not that self centered. I have a glass set and a tank set. If the group has a couple guardians with near perma aegis, then I’ll run glass…otherwise I mix in tanky gear.

Wow! Why so much aggression? You get me all wrong. I get it that you’re upset because of ppl that don’t give much of themselves and want to take as much as they can from dungeons but get a perspective please. I for example cant spent multiple hours a day to farm something so for me it’s like go online, farm some ori with my +mf gear so I can get 1 rare item from mobs that I kill just because they are in the way. That +mf keeps my funds in good shape. If +mf is gone from game ppl like me will lose their income source.

Oh an P.S. I do go to dungeons sometimes and I do have a second set (toughness/healing power). So don’t tell me that all ppl that have a +mf set are leeches.

Your suggestion to only group with guild mates is ridiculous. Your suggestion is anti social in a game genre that is all about socialization. Your suggestion implies that it is better to leave a flawed mechanic in place than to fix it. I group with guild and non guild whenever it suits me. I don’t wait for any ridiculous amounts of time hoping enough or the right people log on in my guild before forming a group to do what I want to do right now..and not later on. The whole premise of your suggestion makes no logical sense. Why not fix the problem…not find ways to get around the problem? Why not use a built in mechanic in the game…that is supposed to work? The only option to invite another player to a party is not in the guild interface…it is in the game interface. Who says that players in your guild are somehow smarter than players in another guild? Who says that an unguilded player is not as smart as the next? Your assumptions and suggestions are faulty. This is not an issue with solo play. This is an issue with dungeon runs. You can run around naked in solo play and no one would really care…except that crowd that hops from game to game complaining that they can see some skin on your character and that all gear should look like full body coffins. You assume that I don’t already have quality people on my friend’s list that I do group with for some dungeons….that is also a faulty assumption. The assumption that I don’t have multiple gear sets is also a faulty assumption…both are actually for dungeon runs (one power/precision/critical damage, one power/toughness/vitality). Even if I were only grouping with guild mates or friended individuals, that does not make it so that I cannot see a clear problem that needs to be addressed. There is no QQ in this thread by anyone who has posted so far. The worst there has been so far is selfish bias and a bit of underhanded name calling.

Then people like you should lose income source and people who actually learn to play game and enjoy challenge can be awarded for doing harder dungeons.

ODB.6891:

Your suggestion to only group with guild mates is ridiculous. Your suggestion is anti social in a game genre that is all about socialization. Your suggestion implies that it is better to leave a flawed mechanic in place than to fix it. I group with guild and non guild whenever it suits me. I don’t wait for any ridiculous amounts of time hoping enough or the right people log on in my guild before forming a group to do what I want to do right now..and not later on. The whole premise of your suggestion makes no logical sense. Why not fix the problem…not find ways to get around the problem? Why not use a built in mechanic in the game…that is supposed to work? The only option to invite another player to a party is not in the guild interface…it is in the game interface. Who says that players in your guild are somehow smarter than players in another guild? Who says that an unguilded player is not as smart as the next? Your assumptions and suggestions are faulty. This is not an issue with solo play. This is an issue with dungeon runs. You can run around naked in solo play and no one would really care…except that crowd that hops from game to game complaining that they can see some skin on your character and that all gear should look like full body coffins. You assume that I don’t already have quality people on my friend’s list that I do group with for some dungeons….that is also a faulty assumption. The assumption that I don’t have multiple gear sets is also a faulty assumption…both are actually for dungeon runs (one power/precision/critical damage, one power/toughness/vitality). Even if I were only grouping with guild mates or friended individuals, that does not make it so that I cannot see a clear problem that needs to be addressed. There is no QQ in this thread by anyone who has posted so far. The worst there has been so far is selfish bias and a bit of underhanded name calling.

OK, now relax, read one more time what I have wrote, think and then write me back. I haven’t said guild members are better in anyway. In fact I was guild-less till yday but despite that fact I have on my friend list some ppl I met online while I was puging. I thought:Hey he/she is a good player. I wonder if he/she would like to do more dungeon with me. I should ask him/her if I can put him/her on my friend list “for latter useage”. I have also few blocked players that were so kittening smart in dungeons that I couldn’t stand reading them.
I’m not saying stay in closed guild/friend group. I’m saying make a new ingame friend that you know you can count for.

And if you want a change in mechanics why not add some boon/condition inside dungeons that prevents an increased magic find.

Sovta.4719:

Then people like you should lose income source and people who actually learn to play game and enjoy challenge can be awarded for doing harder dungeons.

Yeah sure, now punish the ppl who don’t have so much time as you have for just wanting to play a game in non-stressing way. Because if I can sped 30 min online I don’t deserve to have a gold. >.<

Actualy it was meant for ODB.6891, didn’t quote it right sory
I don’t play much and i don’t grind for gold so i can buy some stupied skin for weapons (that’s what legendary is)
But i like that this game requires skills, spent some time learning it and now i want to do some chalenging dungeons, for fun believe it or not, i don’t care even if i lose gold.

Oh, then sorry. I got so much attack from his side, that I kind of forgot about ppl that may share my opinion on that matter:D

My bad, but i’m really pissed now cause this game was great month ago

So… what happened in that month? I haven’t seen a lot of difference to be honest… The only one I saw was fro the better – most of whining, “I-know-everything” noobs are gone by now^^

Well month ago i didn’t now that you will have to grind 9 new mini “dungeons” to grind new gear so it makes it like wow, witch part i always hated.
I though there will be more people looking for challenge, doing dungeons just for fun (cause that’s a big part of MMO for me, you don’t really need fancy looking gear if you ask yourself) but now it’s hard to find groups and some dungeons have more bugs then ever. Also some 30-70 lvl maps have little ppl playing.

Alright OP, then refund me for my superior traveler/pirate runes I have which I spent 2.5g on.

Well about the dungeon part you’re right. I had a problem lately to find a pt for a story mode:/ but I’m not rly a huge fan of dungeons, fractals on the other hand are something that I like very much. And the gear part, I wouldn’t be woried about grinding so much. As far as I could see there are some ppl in rares that are better players than some in full dungeon sets (especialy those in CoF gear).

ODB.6891:

Nothing about what I said was an opinion. You want evidence…look at Diablo 3 or any other recent game that tried to implement magic find. They implemented magic find on gear and sure enough….tons of leeches in dungeons loaded up with with nothing but magic find…ignoring all other stats. Endless wipefests, players kicking each other from parties, etc. Just the single fact that blizzard then made it useless to have magic find on gear by implementing paragon levels. They made it so that once you reached max paragon level…the magic find on your gear did absolutely nothing but limit your potential. It was enough of an issue that they implemented two major game patches over this issue. There’s your proof. That is not an opinion..it is fact. The same arguments you are making now…are the one the leeches tried to make in that game…you see where that got them. The net result was magic find no longer on gear…which is the only thing that makes sense as it is taking up space where functional stats should be.

You should also read for comprehension, that I never said which group was in the minority definitively because no one can determine that accurately. What I did say was that the majority of people and subsequently players will likely go for magic find. The reasoning is because it is the easy route that allows them to leech off of the effort of others. People naturally gravitate towards the path of least resistance. Right now the game mechanics are allowing this path of least resistance to be magic find as it has the highest rewards gained from the effort of others. That is not saying you are not putting in effort too, but saying that the effort you are putting in is less effective on average due to less optimum stats.

If you are going to go as far as to quote someone…at least pay attention to what you quoted.

Ok lets by saying that , because one game , Diablo 3 did it , does not mean much to other games , because if you remember , Diablo 2 , had MF implemented, and i think it is still there , till today with 0 modifications. And by what you said (you mean that thing we would kill a special mob and stack up to 5?) , they did not remove it? They simple added a bonus outside it? That only means people can still use it anyway.

People go insane to get the highest possible. That means , even if Anet took Blizzard path for D3 it would still be tons of people running with MF. Why? cause it gives a minor add. And people dont care for the math , they care they could get +0.001%.

And while true i think D3 is not a bad game , like many other seems to think , i would say D2 was still better (But this is an opinion so there is little value to it on our argument).

Clerigo.9475:

Well, it is not that hard to make proof. Im gonna try.

- With magic find: forked option, allowing players to opt for a MF as 3rd stat in detriment of one that would allow them to better play the game, just because the design is available in the game and other players are using it, thus making the player feel if he doesnt also do it he will be slow pacing his progression.

- With no magic find: everyone at same level.

Now with moving objects

- With MF: the balance is uneven, pending to one side or the other
- Without MF: the balance rests at the middle.

That is not exactly the kind of proof i was asking for hehe.

I wont argue with you that IF we had the same player ,on the exact same time and exact same situation , a “normal” set would be more beneficial in fights than the MF one. MF is designed to increase drops , not really perform greatly in combat.

But i believe the player got the right to chose , it is their choice to decide if they want to use MF or not , simple like that.

Do note that , for some reason people on this thread seem to think i would ever run a dungeon using MF gear , i would not. End of story. I actually began by getting a MF set to farm to only after get the “normal” set.

I refuse to join any dungeon while i lacked the normal gear because i knew i would be a problem to my group. But that was my choice. nobody forced me to not join and many of the groups did not even care even when i told them i only had MF set.

My point is that a player has to pick what he/she wants to do. Not that is morally right to use MF in a dungeon.

Sovta.4719:

Actualy it was meant for ODB.6891, didn’t quote it right sory
I don’t play much and i don’t grind for gold so i can buy some stupied skin for weapons (that’s what legendary is)
But i like that this game requires skills, spent some time learning it and now i want to do some chalenging dungeons, for fun believe it or not, i don’t care even if i lose gold.

How could that have possibly been for me? I don’t wear magic find gear or spend time farming. I log on and do a couple of dungeons and then log off. My character has about 7 gold right now. What source of income am I supposed to lose? My real life job? I also don’t understand how any of that relates to experiencing a challenge?

Nox Aeterna.2965:

Clerigo.9475:

Well, it is not that hard to make proof. Im gonna try.

- With magic find: forked option, allowing players to opt for a MF as 3rd stat in detriment of one that would allow them to better play the game, just because the design is available in the game and other players are using it, thus making the player feel if he doesnt also do it he will be slow pacing his progression.

- With no magic find: everyone at same level.

Now with moving objects

- With MF: the balance is uneven, pending to one side or the other
- Without MF: the balance rests at the middle.

That is not exactly the kind of proof i was asking for hehe.

I wont argue with you that IF we had the same player ,on the exact same time and exact same situation , a “normal” set would be more beneficial in fights than the MF one. MF is designed to increase drops , not really perform greatly in combat.

But i believe the player got the right to chose , it is their choice to decide if they want to use MF or not , simple like that.

Do note that , for some reason people on this thread seem to think i would ever run a dungeon using MF gear , i would not. End of story. I actually began by getting a MF set to farm to only after get the “normal” set.

I refuse to join any dungeon while i lacked the normal gear because i knew i would be a problem to my group. But that was my choice. nobody forced me to not join and many of the groups did not even care even when i told them i only had MF set.

My point is that a player has to pick what he/she wants to do. Not that is morally right to use MF in a dungeon.

I have no problems with people if they actually wear functional gear in dungeons. Of course there is no way to know the difference in this game since there is no inspect feature. Honestly the person dying repeatedly could just be bad at dodging. The person with low damage output wouldn’t really stand out as you have no way of knowing who isn’t producing results. The only issue is that those who do abuse it make it a problem. I said in an earlier post that MF outside of dungeons has no negative effect…the only issue I have with MF outside of dungeons is as to why MF exists anyway? Why is the game designed to make you have to modify your loot chances versus just rewarding you appropriately to begin with for your efffort. That was one of the premises of the OP’s post.

Nox Aeterna.2965:

ODB.6891:

Nothing about what I said was an opinion. You want evidence…look at Diablo 3 or any other recent game that tried to implement magic find. They implemented magic find on gear and sure enough….tons of leeches in dungeons loaded up with with nothing but magic find…ignoring all other stats. Endless wipefests, players kicking each other from parties, etc. Just the single fact that blizzard then made it useless to have magic find on gear by implementing paragon levels. They made it so that once you reached max paragon level…the magic find on your gear did absolutely nothing but limit your potential. It was enough of an issue that they implemented two major game patches over this issue. There’s your proof. That is not an opinion..it is fact. The same arguments you are making now…are the one the leeches tried to make in that game…you see where that got them. The net result was magic find no longer on gear…which is the only thing that makes sense as it is taking up space where functional stats should be.

You should also read for comprehension, that I never said which group was in the minority definitively because no one can determine that accurately. What I did say was that the majority of people and subsequently players will likely go for magic find. The reasoning is because it is the easy route that allows them to leech off of the effort of others. People naturally gravitate towards the path of least resistance. Right now the game mechanics are allowing this path of least resistance to be magic find as it has the highest rewards gained from the effort of others. That is not saying you are not putting in effort too, but saying that the effort you are putting in is less effective on average due to less optimum stats.

If you are going to go as far as to quote someone…at least pay attention to what you quoted.

Ok lets by saying that , because one game , Diablo 3 did it , does not mean much to other games , because if you remember , Diablo 2 , had MF implemented, and i think it is still there , till today with 0 modifications. And by what you said (you mean that thing we would kill a special mob and stack up to 5?) , they did not remove it? They simple added a bonus outside it? That only means people can still use it anyway.

People go insane to get the highest possible. That means , even if Anet took Blizzard path for D3 it would still be tons of people running with MF. Why? cause it gives a minor add. And people dont care for the math , they care they could get +0.001%.

And while true i think D3 is not a bad game , like many other seems to think , i would say D2 was still better (But this is an opinion so there is little value to it on our argument).

If you read the details of the paragon level system, they capped MF at like 300 and the only way to exceed that 300 was by the stacks you get from killing champs/rares. That put the maximum at 375 i believe. Therefore, if you are at maximum paragon level, then you already have 300 MF. You then kill 5 champs/rares and you are at 375. Any MF you have on your gear at that point does absolutely nothing…which makes it wasted potential stats. Up until you reached max paragon level, yes…MF still had a diminishing benefit. That was a pretty elegant way of weeding MF off of gear as you continued to play. It allowed players to still improve their gear over time while still allowing them to have their precious MF.

100000% support OP

Magic Find is a joke and a terrible mechanic that they added to the game (among many other terrible ideas)

Either disable it for dungeons while still allowing it in normal PVE zones or get rid of it all together.

People handicap themselves, die more, are slower and yet they gain more for crippling those of us actually trying.

Get rid of.

OK, now relax, read one more time what I have wrote, think and then write me back. I haven’t said guild members are better in anyway. In fact I was guild-less till yday but despite that fact I have on my friend list some ppl I met online while I was puging. I thought:Hey he/she is a good player. I wonder if he/she would like to do more dungeon with me. I should ask him/her if I can put him/her on my friend list “for latter useage”. I have also few blocked players that were so kittening smart in dungeons that I couldn’t stand reading them.
I’m not saying stay in closed guild/friend group. I’m saying make a new ingame friend that you know you can count for.

And if you want a change in mechanics why not add some boon/condition inside dungeons that prevents an increased magic find.

I don’t want to nit pick, but you specifically opened that previous post by saying to “stop pugging”. That means only group with guild mates or friends. My issue with that is that should not be required, especially not because of a flawed design issue that can easily be rectified. Your idea in the above quote would eventually accomplish the goal of discouraging MF in dungeons. It would probably take a little while before people realized that that MF wasn’t working in dungeons and then they would swap to a real set for the dungeons.

So… Now we’re talking about morals? That’s… astonishing. Btw thanks for the heads up that from now on I should never ever try to get into a dungeon group because I’m (and many others in their MF gear) clearly a useless leecher contributing nothing to the group.

I’d still like to see actual figures of this less contribution due to gear. So guys in MF gear are a setback (but I bet you’d be glad if someone in full MF actually showed up when you already wasted 30 mins finding the last guy for a dungeon run…), but to what extent? Tell me the numbers, but not statistical BS and percentages. Videos of 3 dungeon runs. Same party members, same dungeon. 1st run – 5 dungeon gear. 2nd run – 4 dungeon gear, 1 MF gear, 3rd run – 5 MF gear. If the difference between completion times (aka effectivness) is greater than 10 minutes between the first and second run, and 30-40 mintues of the first and third run, then I hereby promise to get a second dungeon set, and never go to a dungeon again in MF.

If the numbers are like that or worse it would be useful as a “why not to go magic find frenzy in dungeons” tutorial.

Nox Aeterna.2965:

In a MMO spending time getting gear is natural , this is not a fps , if it was not the MF gear you would still rares anyway , or exos. See the point? The game will never simple allow something to login in full whites and go run a dungeon , your group , unless they are your friends , will kick you in one second , no mercy or excuses.

People will complain about ANYTHING if it isn’t their way.

How about ANet just re-balance the game so we only need white gear to do EVERYTHING? People will whine that the game is too easy with the other gear.

How about they just go back to the way GW1 was and the ONLY differences in armor and weapons was the look and the costs before insignias and runes were applied.

It is time for the elitist to quit QQing about MF.

I roll with Exotic MF Gear and I still kill mobs more efficiently than others in their power etc. gear.

Agyaggalamb.4796:

So… Now we’re talking about morals? That’s… astonishing. Btw thanks for the heads up that from now on I should never ever try to get into a dungeon group because I’m (and many others in their MF gear) clearly a useless leecher contributing nothing to the group.

I’d still like to see actual figures of this less contribution due to gear. So guys in MF gear are a setback (but I bet you’d be glad if someone in full MF actually showed up when you already wasted 30 mins finding the last guy for a dungeon run…), but to what extent? Tell me the numbers, but not statistical BS and percentages. Videos of 3 dungeon runs. Same party members, same dungeon. 1st run – 5 dungeon gear. 2nd run – 4 dungeon gear, 1 MF gear, 3rd run – 5 MF gear. If the difference between completion times (aka effectivness) is greater than 10 minutes between the first and second run, and 30-40 mintues of the first and third run, then I hereby promise to get a second dungeon set, and never go to a dungeon again in MF.

If the numbers are like that or worse it would be useful as a “why not to go magic find frenzy in dungeons” tutorial.

I think its amazing that you need someone else to present math to explain common sense. Try taking off one or two of your gear pieces and fight one veteran or champion mob. You don’t even have to be in a dungeon to do that. Try that again with all of your gear on. See if that makes a difference vs a mob that would normally nearly kill you in full gear. Magnify that difference based on how much more difficult a boss or otherwise difficult mob would be in a dungeon if you were the last person in the party standing while your teammates were rushing back from a WP in a dungeon. You are now the difference between that boss resetting and going back to full health…which means your party has to repeat that entire boss fight. Say its not even a possible wipe…say you just get one shotted by a boss in a dungeon due to low vitality or toughness. The difficulty of a tough mob or boss increases dramatically when there is 1/5 or greater less dps or less targets for it to switch between (meaning it may focus on the remaining players more often..giving them less time to get that heal off of cooldown). These are all logical things that do not require some from of proof to understand. Yes, the same difficulty increase can occur because someone just fails to dodge or has low vitality due to a glass build…but why allow extra, intentional handicaps as well as the inevitable player errors.

Magic find is a pointless stat, there shouldn’t any player-side modification to drop rates. Players should be focused on playing the game and having fun, not worrying about whenever they have enough magic find to get good drops from what they are doing right now. Even on food it is a loss of stats, because there is much more useful food out there that can add very useful buffs instead of MF buffs – but MF buff is pretty much all that matters on food. The most expensive food is the stuff that gives MF – and that alone shows how stupid this is.

Its not a matter of choice. When MF is in the game what it tells all the players is this: Use MF or get less good drops. Thats not a choice. Thats forcing everyone to use MF or get less good drops. Some people don’t care and are willing to sacrifice the opportunity for better drops in favour of actually having useful stats fitting for their build. Most are selfish and care for their own drops above everything else, including their buddies in the party.

When Magic Find is in the game it makes players feel that it is mandatory to use it in order to obtain good drops. This is the bottomline, the main reason why it has to be removed. To take this pointless headache away from us and let us focus on whats important in a game: having fun.