Guild Wars 2

When people bring up the idea of having actual tanks and healers, it gets attacked, nobody wants the trinity in this game, blah blah blah… Does it really have to be that black and white though?

I think the games mechanics that are in it now, with a little bit of work can let you “tank” or “heal”.

What I mean is stuff like changing the mechanics of blocking to be easier to swap in and out of the shield and a more spammable block, and let someone tank by getting between the mob and the player it’s targeting and putting his shield up. This would keep the game working like it is now, but you can actually have a dedicated person to try and soak all that damage. This also adds more importance to positioning, and movement. Now instead of just dodging an attack, or kiting the mob, you’re trying to keep that guy with his shield up between you and the mob, and he’s trying to accomplish the same thing.

Healing, I have no idea other than actual gear and useful spells

Yeah, it has to be black and white because what lazy players want is to make this game an generic mmo game. So they will not feel like noobs when they don´t learn how to play and run to another generic mmo game.

And being a one thing player is the laziest way to play this game. why not think about be a real help to the party lookin for what you got and try to put skills to be more helpful than the 5s warrior or the heal heal elem?

Don´t you see the videos about lupicus and kholer? Someone SOLOED them. It´s not necessary to whine about get the holy trinity to this game. it´s necessary to learn the mechanics on how to play better.

I don’t think they want to be lazy or that they want it to be generic, it seems like the common argument is just that they want to fill these roles.

With that idea, if you want to tank you can, but you’re still not needed. You can trade having that extra damage for having someone to soak up more of the damage. It lets someone step in and buy someone some time to get themselves healed up… We can only roll around for so long until it starts getting old

If they want to fill the role of something that the mechanics avoid, try to find another game. From the beggining (3 months) they said that they will not put the holy trinity in the game and people need to learn new ways to play. Now putting 10000000000000000 posts trying to change the game to the generic mechanic MMO game is the greatest lazyness for me.

And to tank, someone need someone healing, or anyone can just kill the monster by exaustion. Os just tank and give those glass cannon the time to dps. WHAT DIFFERENCE will be from another generic mmo?

^ the world doesn’t revolve around you, fyi. You definition of better, doesn’t mean it’s better for everyone. Being able to kill something solo, isn’t the same as being a healer. Ever consider some people don’t like being kill machines? That they want to be the cleric, monk, or mystic. Remember there’s an RPG component to this game.

Guardian is tank and healer…?

And the mechanics was shouted to everyone BEFORE even the start. NO HOLY TRINITY. If you come to this game looking for a way to change that and wait that everyone will be glad with that… If you want a generic RPG just go play one. Don´t even had started this one.

There are lots of games with the holy trinity. And all the problems that it come with. Unbalanced parties, people that want to play a role in the party but can´t because the brother is playing this role. You love to play tanker but the guild leader tell you to roll a DPS because there are lots of tankers in guild.

This game can END with this kitten because every player can be better than just a one skill/role player.

The big issue is how to understand a slogan like “no trinity”.

It can be read both as everyone for themselves (the current game mode by far), and as saying that any profession can fill any role within the trinity.

I suspect more than a few came to this game thinking it would be the former, that they would not have to pick a specific class to be able to stand firm in face of danger or heal the injured.

But what they find instead is that everyone has to fight, while they may sideline in defensive or healing activity.

IMO, the game plays too much as a action game right now. The healing slot goes virtually untouched if i keep running circles around that mob. but if i stop and try to use my more targeted abilities (lines and circles on the ground) i find myself in down state very quickly because the heals have so long a cooldown that they at best buy me a few more second on my feet.

And that’s the main problem. I have all these nifty abilities i want to use, but most of them are placement locked. And it takes time to properly target them. But with the game forcing constant movement, these abilities are wasted as the mobs keep moving out of them unless i am playing solo and stand in the middle of it.

So why bother? I can instead just hit autoattack and run in circles all day…

How is my idea any different than if the mob is targeting you, you snare it and kite it around, or using control to keep another player from getting hit? What I’m recommending is expanding on that idea and letting that be a true strategy to the game. Give people the option to sacrifice the damage of that one player for someone that can soak up more of the damage.

The game already works very similar to it. If you’re going to get hit, you roll out of the way, you kite the mob around, or you put up a shield and block… I’m just bringing up the idea of giving easier access to those abilities, and let someone with a shield stand between a player and a mob (which they already do now), or let players who are targeted get behind someone with a shield (again, something they already do now), just let it be done more rapidly.

I think that you can make your character lean towards tanking or healing.

However, because of Guild Wars 2 dynamic combat system, you probably will not be able to stand in one spot and just take it to your face, like you would in a generic mmo.

And how about to use your skills to do something instrad just push one button. You have 5 weapons skills, 1 heal skill and 4 utility skills, and for some there are even belt skills.

And engy can use an total of 14 skills to support group. Lots of them can revive, remove conditions, give regen. It´s not like a bomb heal healer but can support a group that can stand by themselves as well as one. and thats the question. People that just think of his own self, don´t try to respec and make more versatile char (I have a warrior that tanks lot of dungeons silver and have a good damage, without the need of a bomb healer).

Tank in an generic MMO is the most boring thing in the world, just a wall to boss keep hitting. A healer is an mobile healing potion. The only player trying the achievement is the DPS because he is the person killing the boss.

The GW2 way is more dinamic, everyone participate actively in every role in a well balanced party. But people just look your own self and go to dungeons with GC builds or MF gear and keep slowing the party and being good for nothing.

This is where we need to balance this game. Force people to stop thinking as if he is the only person in the world. Not bringing old and boring mechanics that don´t work anymore. It´s just dragging players that keep addicted to them more and more, and it´s because it´s easy to implement in every MMO mechanic. Everybody know how this works.

And when someone make something that everyone can be the MVP in a party. When they tell NO HOLY TRINITY (gods, they are telling this when the first alpha arrive, everywhere they tell this) people keep trying to make the holy trinity works at all costs.

Some people tell, guardian tank, heal. I saw engineers tanking bosses better than most guardians. My ranger can get some bad hits before I need to run and recover, and do some DPS and even support with healing spring.

It´s just this lazyness, this loss of imaginative ways to do things that make you keep repeating the same formula, we need holy trinity.

Stop! This game has only 3 months, try to adapt and learn something more funny than be a brick wall or a moving healing potion.

Yeah, I don’t mean just stand there ad take hits, and taunt the mob so it’s always on you… I meant something like using the combat system the way it’s designed right now. We can already do everything I suggested, but switching to that shield is going to hurt mobility, you might not be able to switch weapons fast enough to use an ability that is on a different weapon set… Basically, take the punishment out of me switching to my shield and blocking something that would have hit another player.

You wouldn’t be a tank in the traditional sense, you’d be more of someone just being a person with a shield and being aggressive about using it. Not much different than a full ranged group with one person who keeps the mob constantly snared so it can’t reach other players… I don’t get why holding a shield up is suddenly this terrible thing.

It’s not being lazy and wanting a trinity, learn to read, it’s trying to be creative about using the current game mechanics. Right now, I can block something that would hit you and neither of us take any damage, so what do we really lose by me being able to block those attacks more rapidly?

I don’t mind the trinity, but I prefer GW2’s solution to be honest… Doesn’t matter to me eitherway what they do.

I switch very fast my weapons, just have to manage the cooldowns. Just binded the switch weapons to my mouse mid button (i believe everyone has one of these) and change fast to use. and knowing the boss is a good part of this. If I know when to use i can manage correctly my cooldowns. And I´m not even close to be one of those that soloed lupicus or kholer.

Learn the boss mechanics, every boss is a 1, 2 ,3 skill and even tell you what skill he will do. If you pay attention you use the skill only when ti´s needed not spam skill.

And I really believe that I´m very creative in my playstyle. I use my warrior to tank the breeders and scavengers giving the rest of the party time to do their job, I know the scavengers try to knock me off and the breeder just try to vomit things on me, i just keep killing those things and the breeder do nothing. And without even use a shield.

My ranger can DPS heal and support a party using a axe and warhorn and switching to longbow to DPS. My engi can support a party, remove conditions, buffs, mitigate boss regen, dps, heal, stand in front of a boss and take some hits using a shield or the wrench skills, snare, take the heat from a player…

Like I said, lazyness, people are not even trying to use the imagination and stop trying to transform class x in tanker, class y in whatever… I´m tired of the same old formulas that keep people from playing a game.

Let´s make an example. I have a Mesmer in GW1, nobody like to do PVE with mesmers because everyone are PVXsite addicted. Then my guild needed for one more to do DoA and I came with my mesmer, using a DWG build with mesmer energy management and echo. My damage was lower than other RT, but using a mesmer skill on a mesmer changes the way it works. I recovered more energy and faster and give more attacks on the first burst, making more damage before having to recover. This changed the way people in my guild looked at mesmer in PVE.

If you want to be creative use your imagination, don´t try to change the way the game is because for the first time a game don´t try to make people make boring things, force the use of macros and addons and promote DPS.

@Twicedead
And what is not honest on the skill mechanics? And please we are talking on creativity on the skill usage not the problems with ANET.

As stated by Anet. All professions can heal. But not all can tank. Once you lock your utility skills and even your elite most prof. can in some form do AoE heals and/rez

People need to stop talking about the old ways and start trying to learn how this game is setup to be played.

Go to SpVP if you have to where all your skills are unlocked and see what does what. then try them in parties and see if it works or not.

Sorry disapoint you, Krosslite, none class can tank. NO ONE. There are only some that can take some more hits before have to retreat. And some that can mitigate some damage giving more time to recover from heal colldown. Only this. And lots of bosses is better to jump on the boss, snare him, dps him and jump off than just tank him.

And I have every skill for every one of my chars. It´s so easy to gain skill points that I don´t care to spend them.

evolverzilla.2359:

My ranger can DPS heal and support a party using a axe and warhorn and switching to longbow to DPS. My engi can support a party, remove conditions, buffs, mitigate boss regen, dps, heal, stand in front of a boss and take some hits using a shield or the wrench skills, snare, take the heat from a player…

Like I said, lazyness, people are not even trying to use the imagination and stop trying to transform class x in tanker, class y in whatever… I´m tired of the same old formulas that keep people from playing a game.

Since it’s just not sinking in for some reason, I’m saying to do EXACTLY THAT. But to remove the restictions on things like swapping weapons after swapping to a shield, possibly shorter cooldowns on block abilities, maybe the ability to move while blocking…

I don’t know how much simpler I can word what I’m trying to say, you’re just not getting it. I’m not saying make warriors tanks, I’m saying to let us actually use those abilities to “tank” when needed.

Basically, do absolutely NOTHING differently from how the game works now, except for changing some of the things that prevent us from using those abilities at such a high cost of mobility, other weapons, getting snares off if we need to get away, and stuff like that.

I’m not saying to create the prot spec warrior from WoW, which you keep assuming… I’m not saying that in any way. All I’m saying is that right now in GW2, with absolutely no change to mechanics at all, I can switch to my shield and block an attack that would have hit you… I’m just suggesting making that a possible playstyle and strategy, you know, actually use my abilities that I have for something creative… Which apparently creatively using block to prevent damage to another player is being lazy and not being creative…. Idk, this argument seems hopeless.

It´s because you are trying to make something easy more easyer. Nothing is preventing us to use some habilities except for cooldowns. But if you remove a cooldown will be just people spamming skill and it will start a new era of the same old.

Keep spamming shield skills and you will tank just like any old mmo mechanic. Keep sppaming heal área… Understand the concept NOW? Only the lazyness to understand the mechanics, learn about the boss and time correctly the use of your skills is really preventing people from learn another way to play, not spam skill, not ONE skill role.

If you need to TANK you just want to apply the old mechanic. Please stop trying to find a way to apply some of these old mechanics. Learn how to use and time your skills because only you are preventing to play this game.

And for me this conversation is over. I don´t want to be dragged to an endless conversation with someone that want the old mechanics trying to say that don´t.

NO TANK in this game. NO HEALER in this game. NO HOLy TRINITY in this game. No remotion or shorter cooldowns just to keep spamming skills.

I’d settle for skills on a few professions with Taunt mechanics. The game needs more cohesion, group integrity, and roles. It’s braindead boring to solo all the time because there’s no point to doing otherwise.

evolverzilla, you’re just too clueless argue with. HOW IS IT LAZY TO DO MORE!?!?!?!?!?!?!? How is that even remotely possible? I’m not saying spam shield and spam heal, because the mechanics of the game just don’t work like that…. If you actually pay attention to what I’m saying, you’ll realize I’m saying to NOT CHANGE HOW COMBAT WORKS

Go back, reread the posts, actually comprehend what you’re reading. You just see ank and think ZOMG IT’S A TANK FROM WOW AND EQ!!!!!

I’m not talking about a tank like that, better yet, forget I ever said the word tank.

My suggestion is to make your shields and stuff actually useful STRATEGICALLY, where instead of rolling away from everything and running in a circle, you can focus on group placement, if someone’s going to block you’ll get behind him, if you see someone’s going to take damage you can run in and help them. This isn’t a dedicated tank, this is giving us the ability to function as one.

Second, that doesn’t make easy stuff easier since now it actually ups the skill level to pull that off, because now, not just do you have to know what’s going on with you, but you gotta keep track of your group and where they are.

I’m not looking to apply old mechanics. This is based on a no aggro, no taunting, idea, basically the game works 100% the way it does right now, but with less penalty on weapon swaps and mobility. NOTHING about the lack of a trinity will change, NOTHING about what our classes can and can’t do will change, the only difference will be situational abilities that putting that shield on gives a little too big of a penalty for…

You’re still going to have to dodge attacks, you’re still going to have to move. That guy with the shield isn’t going to have the mob constantly targeting him while he blocks every attack… And he’s going to have to use his rolls too when he’s getting targeted so that block isn’t on CD if he needs it after. NOTHING ABOUT COMBAT CHANGES.

Do you get it yet? Basically, shorter cooldown to switch weapon sets after putting a shield on, and maybe being able to move while blocking. But, all you’ll see is the word “tank”, you don’t understand anything about what I’m saying in this thread.

Since I apparently need to say this a few hundred more times for you to understand my suggstion: the same combat mechanics that are in the game right now, 100% intact and exactly how it was designed at release…. But maybe a shorter cooldown on blocking and switching weapons. And just in case you’re that clueless on how the game works: When you put on a shield, you block attacks with it. When you stand between a mob and it’s target with your shield up, you block that attack and the player doesn’t get hurt. My suggestion changes literally nothing about combat mechanics. ANd if I’m not supposed to use my shield like that, then why are there even shields? And why do the combat mechanics work to where you can actually block an attack that’s going to hit another player? Weird right? It’s almost like they wanted us to be able to step in like that, making there be more to combat than just hitting V at the right time.

Long story short, this is a skill that some mobs in the game already have (the asclonaean ghosts and some centaurs) where in for a few seconds they can’t be damaged (the word "block keeps poping up instead of a damage number). the OP is asking to take this to the next level by making the shield big enough for several people the hide behind (maybe slamming the shield onto the ground and it generates a force field or something). this would not be spammable an i’d like to add that this should NOT work on omni-directional AOE attacks (i.e only frontal attacks this can hold)

I admit the idea is interesting on paper but i don’t think it would be very good in practice it would take a hell of alot of coordination to effectively use this. in the heat of combat, people would utterly kitten this up. the concept isn’t bad, and a art of it is already in the game, but i honestly don’t think this would be as good as it sounds.

NOTE: Forgive the uber fail grammar. i’m in a rush!

All I ask is have +healing actually effect healing spells like +power effects damage skills.

You can already heal like mad as a shout warrior, water specced ele, mace focus guardian, bomb engi, or mantra mesmer. 5/8 healer classes is greater than most MMO’s in fact.

Likewise, there’s plenty of ways to pseudo tank if you understand how aggro works in the game.

AnemoneMeer.7182:

You can already heal like mad as a shout warrior, water specced ele, mace focus guardian, bomb engi, or mantra mesmer. 5/8 healer classes is greater than most MMO’s in fact.

You can? Can’t say i have noticed. The numbers just don’t add up for that. Perhaps they can if the player runs in circles all the time, but then it is the circle running, not the healing, that is the deciding factor.

Likewise, there’s plenty of ways to pseudo tank if you understand how aggro works in the game.

Do anyone actually know how the aggro works? Sure, we have some vague pointers in the wiki. But the mobs seems apt at violating those points over the slightest change in group setup.

ill say this again and im sure its what anet agrees with. i like the trinity. its a thing of beauty to have characters running a role flawlessly cattying out their own tactics and winning a battle with strategy and skill as opposed to brute force.

but i dont like waiting to find all teh proffession classes i need to do an event. if you didnt need a healer which you dont the way the game is now. then the trinity would be fine and dynamic events could still be played…. but then it wouldnt be the trinity.

sorry but ill settle for the game the way it is. untill players start playing together all the time and nessecary professions are always there when youre looking for them. if that happens then ill demand the trinity and then some. but it wont cause people play by themselves more than they play with others.

Why does it have to be an either or issue?

Why can’t the game allow those that want to tank to tank, those that want to heal to heal, and those that want to survive by dodge to continue doing that?

Right now tho two of those are virtually impossible and likely a liability.

check this kitten out: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/The-Integration-of-Holy-and-Solo-Trinities-1/first#post978759

digiowl.9620:

AnemoneMeer.7182:

You can already heal like mad as a shout warrior, water specced ele, mace focus guardian, bomb engi, or mantra mesmer. 5/8 healer classes is greater than most MMO’s in fact.

You can? Can’t say i have noticed. The numbers just don’t add up for that. Perhaps they can if the player runs in circles all the time, but then it is the circle running, not the healing, that is the deciding factor.

Likewise, there’s plenty of ways to pseudo tank if you understand how aggro works in the game.

Do anyone actually know how the aggro works? Sure, we have some vague pointers in the wiki. But the mobs seems apt at violating those points over the slightest change in group setup.

For healing. Mantra mesmer is a few thousand every 5 or 6 seconds. Reliable, but not that great.

Shout warrior can throw 10k into everyone’s healthbars in a burst of healing.

and guardian can sustain healing forever.

Likewise, for aggro, if one perosn slaps the boss and runs it out of sight of everyone else, it tends to stay on the person who hit it.

lothefallen.7081:

I’d settle for skills on a few professions with Taunt mechanics. The game needs more cohesion, group integrity, and roles. It’s braindead boring to solo all the time because there’s no point to doing otherwise.

No thank you, No taunt mechanics is what makes this game more fun. You never know when a boss will turn to you, and you have to play a defensive role.

Do not compare the mechanics of this game to what it is in most other MMOs. There is no trinity because the game is set up to FORCE you to make balanced decisions.

If you dont like it, well most of GW2 players do, and majority rules.

The real issue here is that the “trinity” of DPS, Tank, and Heal actually works. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to get away from it, but for the games that use it, it’s a very useful tool that helps keep a sense of balance and function.

So if you’re going to escape from it, as GW2 wished to do, you have to ensure that more evenly distributed abilities on a class actually are effective. So if I want to heal as well as do damage, then I had better be able to design my class to be at least fairly good at both. And why not; isn’t that how we get away from the idea of being locked into a “trinity” or other similar system? Unfortunately the tradeoff between support and DPS is usually extremely high; generally a class will need to sacrifice all traces of decent damage to even slightly effectively support allies, and some classes have poor damage output even when building for it, sacrificing vital support skills altogether.

Honestly I wouldn’t mind if they don’t add “tanking” as a feature; I think the game is fine without it.

However, Healing is something that needs to be improved. More classes need more options for it and its general effectiveness needs to be increased across the board regardless of Healing Power investment. Certain healing skills are fine; the Warrior and Guardian both have an excellent self-heal. However, many healing properties attached to skills, traits, and boons are utterly worthless and there is no excuse for it.

Saying “tank and heal without the trinity” is like saying " Mochaccino without coffe and milk".

It simply doesn’t make any sense.

The moment you add tanking and dedicated healing back, you will also bring back the trinity, because the trinity is not something that was designed in the first place, but something players fall into when they search the most efficient builds.

To prevent the trinity, you must prevent sustained dedicated healing and tanking.

GW2 does that by replacing them with taking turns on catching the enemy’s attention, moving around and controlling the enemy movement, which is actually closer to the original intentions of the first narrative and tabletop RPGs, and more fun for many people.

My theory on the design of this game is simple, tissues are disposable. Everything in the game, including us, are tissue paper. That’s the gold sink in the game. WvW is the ultimate expression of this as Siege equipment not only is quite disposable, it even despawns on a timer.

btw…. on the box cover it doesn’t advertize, “Now without the Holy Trinity!” ;-)

Vindictus has a really good system in place in my opinion; you have the different characters which have different play styles that look like they could fit into different trinity roles, but you don’t rely on an actually trinity in that game.

Guild Wars 2 is close, in my opinion, to a good game without a real trinity; although, there are still some things that need to be tweaked in order for it to be so.

Dude has a valid point that nobody wants to admit to… Hmm, what else is new in the GW2 community?

Game is dying partially because there are no #(%#!_@#! roles. You don’t FEEL beefy, you don’t FEEL like a heal savior, you just pick your flavour of damage… which…ultimately….gets… boring…

Seriously people, wake the #$*& up, this game needs an aggro/tank system of some kind cuz as it stands now combat is boring without someone being the big beefy tank and grappling with the big boss. ANET says they want you to play w/e you want, but if you want to play a tank or healer YOU CAN’T. If you do, you’re 0 help to you’re team. The only option is to be a semi support that maintains constant buffs. Which btw, is extremely boring to play as you’re not popping your 10 min CD ultimate heal to save someone at the last second. Which is where the fun comes in for healers.

But hey, what do I know? Running around like a chicken with your head cut off is totally fun, right? Five people waddling around aimlessly in boss fights and everyone gets doodied on equally. What a novel idea! Totally revolutionizes the MMO genre, hoozah!

….

Nhemin.1520:

Seriously people, wake the #$*& up, this game needs an aggro/tank system of some kind cuz as it stands now combat is boring without someone being the big beefy tank and grappling with the big boss.

ANET says they want you to play w/e you want, but if you want to play a tank or healer YOU CAN’T. If you do, you’re 0 help to you’re team. The only option is to be a semi support that maintains constant buffs. Which btw, is extremely boring to play as you’re not popping your 10 min CD ultimate heal to save someone at the last second. Which is where the fun comes in for healers.

I disagree with the majority of your post, tbh:

1) It’s unreasonable to complain that ‘you can’t play as tank / healer’ when they’ve said from the very beginning that they wouldn’t be there.

2) I disagree that there are ‘no roles’. I’d say it gives the impression because they aren’t as clear-cut as they’d be with the Trinity.
For example, an ally goes down and you knock away the mob attacking them, and then immobilize them. Have you just controlled the enemy or supported your ally?

My Warrior is specced Hammer / Mace + Mace (or Mace + Shield), with Healing Shouts / Banners. Because of the CC the Hammer and Mace gives me, I can interrupt the big attacks, burn through Defiance quite quickly, as well as apply Weakness + Vulnerability pretty much constantly, increasing the survivability of the group. I don’t do that much damage, but at the same time, I’m not useless either.

3) Fights aren’t boring because of the lack of Trinity. Fights can be boring because of the lack of fight mechanics. Introduce more fight mechanics that rely on you needing to be aware of your team-mates, and you don’t need the Trinity. In fact, I’d say just having one person keeping the boss pinned down while someone keeps them up, and 3 others just DPSing is more boring. I much prefer the chaos that it is now.

To OP:

The problem is, introducing the Trinity like that would mean implementing mechanics to make use of the Trinity challenging, thus either:

• requiring the Trinity if you have any reasonable chance of completing the content.
• making content trivial if a group had a Trinity setup.

However, I’m pretty sure that your blocking implementation works now, in terms of ranged projectiles. If they tweaked blocking for melee range as well, I wouldn’t have a problem with that.

I disagree with making character be able to take a tonne of punishment, and the implementation of dedicated healers. We already got a variety of ways with each profession to add a bit of top-up healing, condition removal and regen, and I’d feel that dedicated healers would ruin the game, simply because people would get lazy if they had someone keeping them alive.

I’m more in favour of more interesting fight mechanics that require positional and team awareness, than something that is a requirement to do content.

Mobs seem to favor players with lots of Toughness and low HPs; just let a Guardian with 3k+ armor and ~13k HPs attack the mobs first and for 80% of a fight that aggro will stay on the Guardian.

I really hope that’s just a sign error and will be fixed soon; it makes zero sense that a mob favors a heavily armored target over a squishy target.

If the entire party builds cooperatively (just like a trinity MMO party might choose the right members), then you can do the sort of coop tactics that you might find in a trinity MMO.

Just that the paradigms are a bit reversed:

- Many members of the party should take something that can heal allies.
= Everyone can heal, but heals are weak in this game.
= If a party member is low on health, rather than 1 Priest responsible for healing him, the entire party should temporarily get together and heal him.

- Many members should take skills that support others in a defensive way.
= If someone is being targeted by the enemy, the other members should cast their defensive support on him whilst he kites and dodges.
= That person is thus “tanking” the enemy, by being the focus of the group’s defensive skills. (the party should still continue to throw damage at the enemy as well, of course.)

- If the player who is targeted is adequately healed and defended, then people who are not targeted can focus on damaging skills without wasting time on self-healing or dodging.
= Thus we have “DPS” role.

- Dont forget CC skills like knockdown and stun, they can also be used to save other players.

- Most heals and defense skills in this game are AOE. So even if multiple players are targeted by enemies, you can defend all of them together if the targeted players stick close to each other. The non targeted players can keep away to stay out of AOEs and stay safe whilst DPSing and using their defensive support.
——————————-

So we see that we have GW2’s own trinity of damage, support, healing. But instead of single people occupying these roles, instead what happens is that the entire party will focus these activities on one player when required.

It just requires parties to create balanced coop builds that can support the party in a variety of ways. Everyone is too used to making optimised solo builds, or builds that focus exclusively on one thing.

Rieselle.5079:

If the entire party builds cooperatively (just like a trinity MMO party might choose the right members), then you can do the sort of coop tactics that you might find in a trinity MMO.

Just that the paradigms are a bit reversed:

- Many members of the party should take something that can heal allies.
= Everyone can heal, but heals are weak in this game.
= If a party member is low on health, rather than 1 Priest responsible for healing him, the entire party should temporarily get together and heal him.

- Many members should take skills that support others in a defensive way.
= If someone is being targeted by the enemy, the other members should cast their defensive support on him whilst he kites and dodges.
= That person is thus “tanking” the enemy, by being the focus of the group’s defensive skills. (the party should still continue to throw damage at the enemy as well, of course.)

- If the player who is targeted is adequately healed and defended, then people who are not targeted can focus on damaging skills without wasting time on self-healing or dodging.
= Thus we have “DPS” role.

- Dont forget CC skills like knockdown and stun, they can also be used to save other players.

- Most heals and defense skills in this game are AOE. So even if multiple players are targeted by enemies, you can defend all of them together if the targeted players stick close to each other. The non targeted players can keep away to stay out of AOEs and stay safe whilst DPSing and using their defensive support.
——————————-

So we see that we have GW2’s own trinity of damage, support, healing. But instead of single people occupying these roles, instead what happens is that the entire party will focus these activities on one player when required.

It just requires parties to create balanced coop builds that can support the party in a variety of ways. Everyone is too used to making optimised solo builds, or builds that focus exclusively on one thing.

FINALLY! Someone who really know how to play this game without this … about holy trinity. Instead of using the lazy way EVERYBODY works to progress in the game.

Congratulations!

@tonyl
What you just say is to remove cooldown so you can spam and bla, bla, bla. Like I said LAZYNESS! Most skill can block and move at same time using a shield. some can’t move but you can use the shield more efficient than just block. And engi can block with a shield and even stun and knockback what can be more efficient to stop a deadly blow than block because the mob don´t even need to be targeting you to do that. And can even combo with the block of the wrench tools.

Just your LAZYNESS to think creatively is blocking you to be more than you are. Your will to be the ubersupermegamastersavior of the world is stupid, learn how to work in group instead of trying to be the solo man.

Nhemin.1520:

Seriously people, wake the #$*& up, this game needs an aggro/tank system of some kind cuz as it stands now combat is boring without someone being the big beefy tank and grappling with the big boss.

….

Uhhh… I would have to disagree with you there completely; it doesn’t need an aggro/tank system at all… actually the aggro/tank system is about the most boring system out there.

Enemies need to be able to aggro to whomever the hell they want to, whether it be that elementalist, ranger, thief, warrior, etc. in your party; keeping everyone on their toes.

If anything they just need areas that require more group based work, mechanics that require players to work together to overcome a challenge; multiple switches that need to be pressed to get to certain areas, boss fights with mechanics where one or more players need to do something to weaken a boss to allow for team mates to attack (dredge boss in fotm for example), etc. They could even have a few group oriented areas like these in open world too.

I don’t know if it’s been mentioned yet, but it almost seems like ANet originally intended the player to be able to block attacks. Not only do some mobs actively block attacks to not take damage, but in the Township of Claypool in Queensdale two of the activities are NPCs teaching you to block attacks with a shield and how to attack people that use shields.

Kalizaar.4729:

I don’t know if it’s been mentioned yet, but it almost seems like ANet originally intended the player to be able to block attacks. Not only do some mobs actively block attacks to not take damage, but in the Township of Claypool in Queensdale two of the activities are NPCs teaching you to block attacks with a shield and how to attack people that use shields.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Block

There are a ton of abilities that do this. Every class but Necro’s has one.

The fact that the OP and others don’t know this just shows how little they know or care about the way this game currently functions.

Teamwork here is intelligent, complicated and fully functional. There aren’t defined roles like Healer, Tank or DPS but there are “roles”. Healing isn’t through 1 person, its through the full team and cooperation. Part of your role can be “Water field dropper” while a teammate’s job is “Combo Field Blaster” who detonates your fields to give HUGE area healing. Or your role can be “1 of 2 team stability providers” for Guardians and Warriors or “quick rezzer” if you have a power that grants Quickness. Or you can be a “Blinder” which is a VERY underrated condition in this game for boss fights being that bosses only attack once every ~3 seconds or so. “Blinder” is one of the roles I always do when in an underwater boss encounter as a Ranger (Jellyfish Smoke field + projectile finisher) and it makes the boss useless for nearly 10 seconds.

People who keep bringing up the trinity haven’t given this game and its systems a chance and any time I see people try to shoe horn it in to this system which was built purposefully to exclude it, all I can do is pity them.

The “trinity” gives people easy roles to follow and a feeling of teamwork right out of the box. Those of you that have played other MMOs know that even the trinity is a foreign concept to most new players. I recall a Warrior newbie in FFXI saying, “but if I taunt, it will attack me!”

Teamwork is really a give and take trade between actions: you doing that let’s me do this and opens up this other action for another teammate. That kind of teamwork is essentially nonexistent in GW2. It’s immensely satisfying to put together and it’s the one thing I miss most playing GW2. Grouping in GW2 feels like 5 people solo’ing together.

Yep, blind is great, I use it all the time. No one knows if I’m doing or not, though. They just notice they’re not taking as many hits. There’s no linkage to other skills on other players. I don’t have to coordinate my skills with anyone else to achieve a greater effect than either of us could have achieved alone.

The best MMO for teamwork was FFXI with Renkei (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Category:Skillchains). It had defined roles, though, too. And, while I dislike sitting there spamming LFG for a healer or refresher, having defined roles is a first step in teaching newbies about MMO teamwork.

Omega.1473:

The fact that the OP and others don’t know this just shows how little they know or care about the way this game currently functions.

Really? That’s why my suggestion was based on changing mechanics of stuff already in the game, because I didn’t know that people could block?

And I’m not recommending a dedicated tank or healer, I’m recommending a more active way of playing defensively than pushing a button to put a buff on the group. Basically, if the mob is going after someone who is a hit from dying, and everything that he can use to save himself is on CD, that I should be able to use my block to soak a few hits for him until he can get healed, or people should be able to get a decent heal off for people in that situation… But the way the game is designed now, any times we can get anywhere close to that type of utility, it comes at a high cost, or it’s not repeatable in a close enough amount of time.

Oglaf.1074:

Guardian is tank and healer…?

Umm… no

No class can tank in this game because it’s impossible to force a mob to attack you and only you.

The only way to play this game is for EVERYONE to realize they can’t stack pure damage stats because eventually they will get the mobs attention and in Dungeons or Champ fights that usually means dying in 1 hit when your dodge ineveitably fails Either because of the bug that dodges but doesn’t actually move you and wastes your energy, or the (i’m assuming bug) that lets these bosses hit you in mid dodge roll or knock you down even when it says you blocked.

I don’t mind so much the lack of trinity what bugs me is the fact that anyone can actually die in just 1 hit, mobs with 2 million+ HPs and immune to damn near anything but straight up damage that take forever to whittle down, and the CC on every damn thing you fight. It doesn’t add any real ‘challenge’ to the game it just makes fights long and boring.

Overall the combat in this game is more annoying than fun most of the time. And to top it off the loot sucks for pretty much everything you do now. Well done Anet. I hope the few people left playing will pump all kinds of money into that RNG kittenhole of a cashshop you created.

Omega.1473:

Kalizaar.4729:

I don’t know if it’s been mentioned yet, but it almost seems like ANet originally intended the player to be able to block attacks. Not only do some mobs actively block attacks to not take damage, but in the Township of Claypool in Queensdale two of the activities are NPCs teaching you to block attacks with a shield and how to attack people that use shields.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Block

There are a ton of abilities that do this. Every class but Necro’s has one.

I’m aware of various abilities that block projectiles or attacks but I guess they all seem more gimicky and temporary than what the various mobs and NPCs in Claypool do where they hunker down behind their shield seemingly at will. I haven’t experimented much with the Warrior though, so maybe they do that?

Anyhow, the current “Block” abilities don’t feel anything like those “lessons” you take in Claypool. Just like the hold and aim lesson for the rifle. I’m just commenting that those lessons kind of feel like at some point in game development there was to be similar mechanics but they were dropped and turned into what we have now. And then they just left those lessons in. shrug

IMO, the lack of a trinity makes it easier to distinguish good players from bad.
And I’m not talking about players who are experienced or geared. I’m talking about which players have better intuition, reflexes, and communication skills.

Bad players have a fixed attack pattern, and they’re not very good at reacting to new things.
Good players have a more reactive attack pattern. They dodge better, go rally allies sooner, cure conditions quicker, and all other sorts of things that show they’re actually learning through exploration/experience instead of following a play-by-play manual.

The reason people shoot down “tank” or “healer” is because those terms are akin to WoW’s trinity system and that doesn’t do the roles of GW2 justice. Those terms sound archaic to the typical knowledgeable gamer.

Learn to use the concepts of GW2 that ANet has put out. Control, DPS, and Support.

If you want to tank, just say ’I’m a soak’, because you’ll be melee-ranged and spec’d to endure lots of damage.

If you want to heal, just say “I’m a support”, and learn that you’re not suppose to just heal. You grant boons, and other utilities to help allies.

Thank God there’s no holy (hanna) trinity!

If you want that, go play either GW1, wow, or the other 13 million games out there.

In this game your more responsible for your own actions, and more than likely to be found to be either good player of bad player. Like the person who has his or her toon stand in the lava, and expects the healer to just heal them while the rest of the party die’s

It’s one thing to make a mistake, I mean we all do and learn from it, but it’s a whole different one when certain others don’t.

@Kalizar
The lessons on claypool are exaclty how a lot of block systems currently works. some works EVEN better than the lessons in claypool. Claypool lessons is about TIMING to raise your shield to block JUST ONE blow.

Some block skills can block just one blow
Some can block blows for 3 to 5 seconds
Some can even give some condition to the attacker.

So the claypool lessons are the least of the uses of a block, is a less effective way to block comparing to the diverse block system of the game.

Even some blocks don´t even need a shield. Just use the skill and wait for the blow!

But if you want some videogame blocks where you push a button and block forever or at least havin something like adrenaline (witch rapdly recharges) to control the time…