Guild Wars 2

Why must we have a caste system in WvW? Commanders are being treated like gods in WvW simply because of their tag.

One of the many goals of WvW should be to allow a few average players to work together to accomplish something; whether it be defending, attacking, upgrading, or whatever. However, the trend seems to be that most new players and many of the old players are reluctant to commit to anything without a commander telling them what to do. This is a bad idea for many reasons, but primarily because it diminishes the enjoyment of the average player.

We all come from different backgrounds and we all choose to play this game in our own way. Admittedly, some people like to lead and some people like to follow, but that choice should never be forced on anyone. Commanders are currently a status symbol in the game that allows them to spam team/map chat and give orders without opposition. These actions often drown out the average player. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard someone tell an average player to stop using team chat so the commander can speak, it’s insulting and disrespectful. We both paid our 60 dollars for this game and we both have a right to play.

The bottom line is that commanders should not be in the game in their current form. The original goal of ArenaNet may have been for commanders to be a mobile rally point and a squad creator but what has been implemented is nothing close to that. Only a few commanders actually take the time to form squads and instead spam team chat, and the function of the rally point has simply been reduced to the barbaric rhetoric “EVERYONE ON MY TAG NOW!!”.

We are tired of being reduced to a pawn in a child’s toy army. ArenaNet, I beg you to address this and give us a system that treats everyone as equals.

Tekyn.5376:

Why must we have a caste system in WvW? Commanders are being treated like gods in WvW simply because of their tag.

… Only a few commanders actually take the time to form squads and instead spam team chat, and the function of the rally point has simply been reduced to the barbaric rhetoric “EVERYONE ON MY TAG NOW!!”.

We are tired of being reduced to a pawn in a child’s toy army. ArenaNet, I beg you to address this and give us a system that treats everyone as equals.

Just this summary make me give a +1. Way to go guy.

Why not they give something like the laures for Daily PVP and Monthly PVP + having to complete their wvw achievement tab?

For me it´s will make a person more oriented about wvw and pvp and more apt to command a raid.

Gold should never have been the deciding factor in leading people in WvW

The problem is. Commander is a huge money sink… Everyone can throw 100g out and feel like gods. But it´s just 100g thrown out.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Gold should never have been the deciding factor in leading people in WvW

Exactly. I kinda see where they were going with it though; Guilds pooling their Gold to elect a Commander. Or somesuch. It just didn’t work out because individual players were able to buy it as a vanity item.

Tekyn.5376:

Commanders are being treated like gods in WvW simply because of their tag.

No you’re wrong, in fact only a few are given respect.

Tekyn.5376:

but that choice should never be forced on anyone.

It’s not. A commander is annoying you? Use the block feature, see how easy that is.

Tekyn.5376:

Only a few commanders actually take the time to form squads and instead spam team chat

It’s the problem with WvW not the commander’s. WvW winning is based mostly on out zerging the other server.

It’s easier to complain about commander’s, giving yourself that power and in turn, absolving yourself of any responsibility, because you refuse that system.

If you wanted to be taken seriously you should have complained only about the commander system, rather than complaing about commander’s in general.

The issue is that it’s purchased through gold. Meaning that a good WvW player, who could be a great commander, may never have enough gold to buy one.

A good wvw player can complete dailyes and montlhys pvp and even the WvW achievements. So it´s a better way to get commander than gold and will reward good players.

SoPP.7034:

No you’re wrong, in fact only a few are given respect.

Actually, you’re wrong, but whatever. I’m not here to attack other people, only debate the issue. If you feel like making a case for how respect is attributed to commanders then please feel free.

SoPP.7034:

It’s not. A commander is annoying you? Use the block feature, see how easy that is.

Blocking a commander would not change the tone and atmosphere created within a zone. I mentioned that point in the original post.

SoPP.7034:

If you wanted to be taken seriously you should have complained only about the commander system, rather than complaing about commander’s in general.

Criticizing the “commander system” and criticizing “commanders in general” are kind of the same thing. The example I gave was a pattern of behavior exhibited by many commanders which I think illuminates one of the many flaws of the commander system.

If you want to be taken seriously then stick to debating the issue rather than attacking the poster.

SoPP.7034:

The issue is that it’s purchased through gold. Meaning that a good WvW player, who could be a great commander, may never have enough gold to buy one.

I completely agree.

evolverzilla.2359:

Why not they give something like the laures for Daily PVP and Monthly PVP + having to complete their wvw achievement tab?

For me it´s will make a person more oriented about wvw and pvp and more apt to command a raid.

because wvwvw is not considered pvp by anet ;p

The current commander system is broken, on that I agree. Terrible idea to base it on gold alone, sure like some said it doesn’t guarantee the person respect….But more often than not throwing that tag up will attract people, luckily I haven’t had to really deal with the obnoxious ones that try to RULE map or team chat.

One of the worst things I have seen commanders do is for 2 of them to pile up at a keep (or anywhere for that matter)….Because essentially you put all of you people in those areas (save for us that don’t always mindlessly rally to a tag)….So then we are left begging for help at the other side of the map opposite of the stacked commanders.

The moral of the story is 100g doesn’t make you a leader, heck 100g isn’t even that much anymore economy wise. But we as players should take some of the blame as well, because you do not have to follow the commander, and you could learn who the good and bad players are on your server and assist/aid them as needed.

Personally I doubt I would ever have the urge to command, it is frustrating enough to read how much they have to work to keep the zerg zombies in line and not to “push to far”, “get away from the keep we are capping the tower”, and the ever popular “SM is not the target!”.

Tekyn.5376:

Actually, you’re wrong, but whatever.

Glad we cleared that up -.-

Tekyn.5376:

Blocking a commander would not change the tone and atmosphere created within a zone.

Because the problem is zerging wins!!!!! The problem with you’re post is you are complaining about the symptoms of the actual problem.

Tekyn.5376:

Criticizing the “commander system” and criticizing “commanders in general” are kind of the same thing.

One focuses on the system the other focuses on the people of the system, both of which interact.

Tekyn.5376:

The example I gave was a pattern of behavior exhibited by many commanders

That is entirely subjective…..

Tekyn.5376:

If you want to be taken seriously then stick to debating the issue rather than attacking the poster.

I never made one personal attack. My statements were based around the fact that you’re argument is fundamentally flawed.

Feel free to reply.

I’m smart enough to know that someone who has a nice blue icon above their head isn’t necessarily a good LEADER. Commander yes. Leader no. Just like I know someone who is wielding a couple of legendary weapons isn’t necessarily a good player.

Through playing with that commander, seeing how their strategies play out, and seeing how they cooperate, motivate, succeed (or learn from failure) tells me whether or not to follow them or strike out on my own.

Granted, your average player may just blindly follow the blue Dorrito, but they’ll learn quickly enough who’s worth listening to and who isn’t. I think (hope?) most of my server has figured it out.

We’re adding in other problems here: I saw one of you say we’re a paw in a child’s toy war. I agree to that, but that isn’t necessarily a problem that can be solved by dropping commanders.
It just doesn’t feel like you’re valuable when mindlessly running opponents down, without actually requiring any skill in doing so. Instead I think it’d be a better idea to make dedicated roles in wars, so people actually feel like they have contributed to anything and they do get rewarded for it!

This is how I see it. When people first play WvW on one of their characters, they get the chance to accept a few roles: the standard roles in war are usually these:
- Soldier/Heavy: these are the heavy classes such as warrior, guardian
- Assassins/Snipers: these are the spy units in the army that should focus on getting behind the enemy lines and cutting supply lines, killing war leaders. This role could be filled by thieves and rangers.
- Sappers: the sappers are those who are devoted to siege and undermining the fortifications of enemies. Perfect for this role is probably the engineer.
- Wizards: these are the classes that are supposed to crowd-control the enemy, protect from opposite wizards etc.

Now: each of these different roles has a different target in warfare, and should get awarded for it just the same, wether you are in the frontline as a heavy-arms warrior, wether you’re a thief, poking knives in the backs of people or an engineer trying to blow up walls with bombs.

There should also be more class specific features in this I think.
- Engineers should have special options to break down walls faster.
- Thieves should have the ability to break into a fortification and steal treasures.
- Rangers should have the ability to attack the enemy by using animals that are around in the enemy fortifications.
- Necromancers should have the ability to raise minions from the graveyards. This is an addition I’d like: how can there be a battleground without graveyards and other normal things such as farms etc?
- ETC

Hope you like it

@Sirendor, please add your problem in other post. we are discussing about commander system. Not the role of other players. Please stay on discussion.

@Killyox
Yes, but a good pvp player+wvw player make a good commander. PVP laurels+all wvw achievements complete show a person who like the “player” competitive part of the game. And know what he have to do.

Tekyn.5376:

Why must we have a caste system in WvW? Commanders are being treated like gods in WvW simply because of their tag.

One of the many goals of WvW should be to allow a few average players to work together to accomplish something; whether it be defending, attacking, upgrading, or whatever. However, the trend seems to be that most new players and many of the old players are reluctant to commit to anything without a commander telling them what to do. This is a bad idea for many reasons, but primarily because it diminishes the enjoyment of the average player.

We all come from different backgrounds and we all choose to play this game in our own way. Admittedly, some people like to lead and some people like to follow, but that choice should never be forced on anyone. Commanders are currently a status symbol in the game that allows them to spam team/map chat and give orders without opposition. These actions often drown out the average player. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard someone tell an average player to stop using team chat so the commander can speak, it’s insulting and disrespectful. We both paid our 60 dollars for this game and we both have a right to play.

The bottom line is that commanders should not be in the game in their current form. The original goal of ArenaNet may have been for commanders to be a mobile rally point and a squad creator but what has been implemented is nothing close to that. Only a few commanders actually take the time to form squads and instead spam team chat, and the function of the rally point has simply been reduced to the barbaric rhetoric “EVERYONE ON MY TAG NOW!!”.

We are tired of being reduced to a pawn in a child’s toy army. ArenaNet, I beg you to address this and give us a system that treats everyone as equals.

Who is this We you’re talking about ? And what are you on about being Forced to do this or that …? You go on as if youre not allowed to play whenever a commander shows up and that you are treated like a, slave ? I dont know where you get all this or what server youre on.But has it ever crossed your mind that if you Do want to achieve something ,just form some partys and go…even if there’s a commander,who would only appreciate it ?

Caedmon, yes but most of the time people keep folowing everything blue in the map. And wasting useful time just because some random child wanted to be like a god.

ANet don’t care…

evolverzilla.2359:

Caedmon, yes but most of the time people keep folowing everything blue in the map. And wasting useful time just because some random child wanted to be like a god.

“some random child” seems like a statement of jealousy,ive seen some Very good commanders.Also alot of new commanders who don’t know what to do at times,i always do my best to help them wherever i can,..commanding can be quite difficult and they could use all the support needed when they are trying something. And btw,thats the purpose of the tag,so that people will have something to follow around.If you do not agree with the current commanders decision,how about you give him a pm and let him know what other plan you got ? Most will listen,if they dont..then like i said,make your own partys,from your guild or randoms,and do your own things.

Jealously why? Did you want to see a Screensot from my bank? Meh… no. I made 100 gold in 5 days doing 3h cof a day. Not a huge problem for me. But I´m not a good pvp or w3v player so I will not waste my money in commander. For me you just look like one of those random childs. “Oh, you are against me? You are jealous”… really? This is what you call an adult conversation?

If you don´t have something better than this or the “oh, you don´t like? don´t do/use/try this…”

The commander merit today is totally kitten. Every idiot with 100G can be a commander and a blue tag on map confuse players. Simple as that. And even you said:

Caedmon.6798:

evolverzilla.2359:

Caedmon, yes but most of the time people keep folowing everything blue in the map. And wasting useful time just because some random child wanted to be like a god.

“some random child” seems like a statement of jealousy,ive seen some Very good commanders.Also alot of new commanders who don’t know what to do at times,i always do my best to help them wherever i can,..commanding can be quite difficult and they could use all the support needed when they are trying something. And btw,thats the purpose of the tag,so that people will have something to follow around. If you do not agree with the current commanders decision,how about you give him a pm and let him know what other plan you got ? Most will listen,if they dont..then like i said,make your own partys,from your guild or randoms,and do your own things.

A commander tag is not to be just something for people run to you and be at your feet. A commander tag is not to be just followed around. Is for LEADERS make squads and work as a team capturing objectives.

If you don´t agree with it please disagree in a more adult manner.

SoPP.7034:

Because the problem is zerging wins!!!!! The problem with you’re post is you are complaining about the symptoms of the actual problem.

SoPP.7034:

One focuses on the system the other focuses on the people of the system, both of which interact.

SoPP.7034:

That is entirely subjective…..

SoPP.7034:

I never made one personal attack. My statements were based around the fact that you’re argument is fundamentally flawed.

Feel free to reply.

I didn’t say you made a personal attack, I said you were attacking the poster instead of debating the issue, there is a difference. You told me I was wrong without saying why. You’re telling me my argument is flawed but you’re not saying why. A respectful and pleasant debate on the issues does not require calling out individuals with generalized retorts.

You’re saying that the “problem” with my post is that I am complaining about the symptoms rather than the problem. Yes, I think there is a problem with the commander system and that the symptoms of that problem are affecting players. However, your unilateral vision of the game that says that zergs are the root of all problems is something I do not agree with, and in my opinion that viewpoint is entirely subjective. But this is not a thread about the “zerg problem” so I will agree to disagree.

And in case you hadn’t noticed, we actually do agree on 98% of the issues here. By all means make a thread that outlines why WvW is flawed because of zerging! I will reply and give you a +1.

Arcanorum Ignis.9218:

ANet don’t care…

I hope that’s not true. The upcoming March WvW update will send a lot of people packing if it doesn’t address some of the flaws with WvW.

Now i been playing GW2 since beta and spend alot in WvW learning the tricks of the trade so to speak now its taken me a lot of time to earn 100g since i don’t play to often and i took my time in the game while doing other things but since i got my commander icon i find it a lot easier to control people know i work in daytime in DB where their is not a lot of commanders on or commanders not want to show their tag since they do not really want to lead or dont know how since i only got my tag a couple of days ago i generally did leading people without the tag lots of people came to respect me more than commanders and more are willing to listen to me now but i still have to shout COM TO MY TAG PLZ since not every siege is successful and drops in moral but since the daycrew is well lack luster trying to create a zerg is difficult bashing the idea that the commander title is broken is not right in some sense yes i believe their should be more than just 100G and that obligates u to lead but at the same time i don’t know if you noticed but WvW title they are not easy and they are quite long to achieve yes systems can be changed but its your option if you want to listen to a commander or if some one gets told to shut up so the commander has more talk time in the chat at the same time a commander has the obligation to listen to his zerg and his fellow players since hey they don’t know every thing or hey i don’t know where the enemy zerg is i might want to listen to what some else has to say. in the full conclusion every commander lead differently and each commander has their ups and down moments you have to give people chances but at the same time if nothing but failures come out then you don’t have to follow them either and if you don’t like how other lead why not drop the 100g so you can become a commander yourself and lead see how easy it truly is i have been leading without a tag since launch and i would have to say i earned respect before i became commander with a tag and on a side note the zerg might act like mindless drones at time but still players are players you can only do what you can till they all figure out hey this dude might have some really thought out idea or realize hey some ones talking i should stop and listen

I agree… refund the 100g, lose the commander system as it is now. Make people earn it.. through popular acclamation. That way, only those who the people trust will have that tag, and it will mean something. Right now, the ONLY thing it means is someone coughed up 100g. That’s it.

And those people arguing in favour of the current system, and just block the commanders you don’t like, don’t paint them all with the same brush, etc.. Uh.. you’re kinda supporting my argument. There’s a REASON why they’re all painted with the same brush. Because the only thing you need to do is have 100g. Not ability. Anyone who wants an kitten extension only needs to cough up 100g.

So, the system as it is needs fixing. Period. I like to think that if I follow a blue icon on the screen, that the person under that icon actually did something to earn it. This is why if in WvW I see some commander spamming orders, I usually just say “meh” and go back to doing whatever I was doing. You want that to stop, then start making it mean something.

Let’s face the truth… the lack of proper grouping tools forces people to use a commander pin. You have people running around as commanders, not because they are good leaders…. but because there is no other way for more than 5 people to group!

Like many other people, I purchased a commander pin to help our multiple guild groups coordinate more. I didn’t purchase it because I had aspirations of leading our server or zones. I just wanted to help coordinate our multiple guild groups the most effective way. I barely use that pin now simply because of the “expectations” you must lead the zerg… I prefer doing private stuff with 2-4 groups.

They NEED either a new or modified commander and squad system that allows 2-4 groups of players to coordinate without costing 100gp and forcing a “blue zerg pin” on the map. Medium size forces basically have to run using only a 3rd party VoIP program… it’s silly.

Slartibartfast.5416:

… This is why if in WvW I see some commander spamming orders, I usually just say “meh” and go back to doing whatever I was doing. You want that to stop, then start making it mean something.

Exactly, and this is something that is evident on almost all servers & tiers. So many commanders have stopped trying to form squads and instead use team chat to spam their orders.

The current commander system feels like it was hastily put together as a last minute gold sink.

Maior problem with commanders is that there’s no organised PvP: you just zerg along, straight to “victory” whatever that may be when you didn’t actually do a thing.
Imo make more ranks and make those ranks earnable by experience, not by buying a leader insignia when you’re just a stupid gold farmer. Just 2 hours ago I went into WvW on the server Gandara in EB. There was one commander there, randomly running around. People got sorely confused and we lost 3 keeps while that guy was there, cause he didn’t have a clue. He didn’t even communicate with the other players, making it plain he was just one of those random noobs.

Sirendor, I hope it’s not Ezekiel you’re talking about, as he was just on EB and is the one leading the PUGs most often. He’s a huge credit to our server but if you’re not using public TS you’ll probably miss out on a lot of commands, or at least the decision-making. I wasn’t online myself, so maybe you’re talking about someone else.

Point is that the commander tag isn’t a replacement for good leadership and organization, it’s a supplement. 100g is a useful barrier to keep everyone from buying it; even if a lot of people have that much money, most won’t spend it on a pin. Those that just turn it one without working towards any kind of organization will be quickly identified as bad commanders, but from most commanders it’s an indication of willingness to work towards improvement.

It does help to have a visual indicator on the map, I’m not against adding some other kind of requirement in addition to the 100g but if it’s exclusively a non-exchangeable resource like # of kills then there will be even more people trying to use an icon.

No it wasn’t Ezekiel, although I don’t have a huge liking for “WvW” – Guild.
Was some random guy nobody had ever seen before.

One solution would be to add a second temporary (maybe not temporary but make it different somehow) commander tag that isn’t bought with gold but by accomplishing feats or other requirements done in the game instead. Also adding stars (or some achievement status indicator) and names to each commander tag can help identify and indicate the caliber of each commander.

Zahld.4956:

One solution would be to add a second temporary (maybe not temporary but make it different somehow) commander tag that isn’t bought with gold but by accomplishing feats or other requirements done in the game instead. Also adding stars (or some achievement status indicator) and names to each commander tag can help identify and indicate the caliber of each commander.

I like that idea, and you could possibly tie feats like towers/keeps captured to the tag and/or starring system you mentioned…I know many would probably complain that being a zerg capping things doesn’t earn you the traits needed to command…but it does more so than paying 100g.

- Minimal number of people must join a commander’s squad before he can flag his pin (20-30 people). People will join a good commander, they won’t join a bad commander. This will reduce bad commanders pins on the map.

This will also allow guilds with multiple groups to use the squad system who DON’T want to actually lead with a pin on.

King Amadaeus.8619:

I like that idea, and you could possibly tie feats like towers/keeps captured to the tag and/or starring system you mentioned…I know many would probably complain that being a zerg capping things doesn’t earn you the traits needed to command…but it does more so than paying 100g.

I think that’s exactly right. Almost anything based off of merit would be better than a system based off of a gold purchase.

I have hope that the ranking system that Anet promised us will deliver on some of this. I just hope that it includes the removal of the current commander system.

Ahmrill.7512:

- Minimal number of people must join a commander’s squad before he can flag his pin (20-30 people). People will join a good commander, they won’t join a bad commander. This will reduce bad commanders pins on the map.

This will also allow guilds with multiple groups to use the squad system who DON’T want to actually lead with a pin on.

That’s a good idea. The fact that many commanders don’t bother to create squads now speaks volumes to the failure of the current system.

Tekyn.5376:

Ahmrill.7512:

- Minimal number of people must join a commander’s squad before he can flag his pin (20-30 people). People will join a good commander, they won’t join a bad commander. This will reduce bad commanders pins on the map.

This will also allow guilds with multiple groups to use the squad system who DON’T want to actually lead with a pin on.

That’s a good idea. The fact that many commanders don’t bother to create squads now speaks volumes to the failure of the current system.

You’d actually have people making an effort to join a squad now. And you’d also have a way for 2-4 groups of players / guilds to use the squad system without flagging the pin and expected to lead (if they don’t want to).