Guild Wars 2

The Dead End of 80

While talking with my friend in-game i discuss with him about how my thoughts about Guild Wars 2, some good, some bad. Before you go ahead and think this is a flame war against World of Warcraft and Guild Wars 2, it’s not. I base my arguments and comments off of my own personal experience that will relate to most people.

Beforehand sorry for my grammar as it’s 5:00 am and I’m not as focused.

-Me and my Friends conversation-

My friend and I are both 80. One day we had a discussion about why i haven’t been on in two weeks. He plays almost every day and for hours while it got dull for me a few days upon hitting 80. I responded by saying that the game is dull at 80 and i have no drive to continue and no drive to level to 80 on a different profession to be stuck at a dead end yet again. As the conversation reign i mention World of Warcraft (WoW). I played WoW before i switched to GW2. He also played WoW but he only achieved level 60 during The Burning Crusade and didn’t get the endgame experience WoW offered. So i gave him an insight to my views on both games and why i lost my drive to GW2.

-Leveling-

While leveling up in Guild Wars 2 i loved it. The environment was gorgeous and the underwater gameplay was different and way above average of other games by far. Leveling is the highlight in this game by far and Guild Wars greatest perk. The leveling is different and less structured than WoW’s, accept a quest and turn it in. Although this quest system is alleviated it’s still not much different from WoW. You still have your kill task; gather task, and boss task, just not clicking on a npc. This system is somewhat of a relief because the game allows you to fluently progress throughout the game without taking a quest back to an npc to turn in and allows you to explore the game without bondage. This can be good or bad, sometimes i find myself doing an event repeatedly because i don’t have a structured progressing system. Task marked by the hearts on the mini-map are what i strive for in-game. Events popping up throughout your leveling experience are fun, but can get really repetitive and sometimes I feel forced to take place in events for the experience points.

Read the full Article here:
http://shadenmonk.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-dead-end-of-level-80-my-thoughts.html

Hey mate, check out my post above for some suggestions I posted. I agree with most of what you said, so would love to hear your opinion.

I may agree with you, what I really thing is that this “end-game or no engame” of this game kills it when we do the story, the 80, the dungeons, and start to have like I do sometimes, get bored while playing PVE, what did not happened in GW1.=/

Maybe it’s because the game is new and they will keep improving and give players an true endgame or maybe, it’s the new content coming. :P

I think you misunderstood what Arenanet meant by their ‘everything is endgame’ retoric.

In WoW, you are stuck running the same dungeons over and over until you get the gear to progress to the next level of dungeons and while running those dungeons can be fun, that’s all there is. You are stuck doing the same content over and over again. What getting to level 80 in GW2 does, is open up the whole world to you. Just like completing a dungeon for the first time in WoW, getting 100% map completion in an area doesn’t mean you’re done. You can go back to the areas you liked, play through the events you most enjoyed and garner gold/karma rewards adjusted to your level (I do believe something has to be done about the loot).

That being said, I do believe you’re on to something when you talk about mob and dungeon variation. There are some bosses in GW2 which have notably unique mechanics, such as The Lovers and the Iron Forgeman, and many which present a challenge, such as Lt. Kholer. But there’s something missing.

Don’t get me wrong, I like the dungeons in GW2. I genuinely do. However, in comparison to some of the elite areas in GW1, they lose their shine. Take Urgoz’s Warren and The Deep. For those unfamiliar with these zones, they were areas designed for a group of twelve and divided into zones. Each zone had a different environmental effect or challenge to overcome. These included rapid health degeneration, having to split into smaller groups, having to fight on a narrow platform surrounded by unreachable turrets. Other Elite areas included zones/areas which were pitch black, zones which gated you into small areas. In GW2, ther’s often a disconnect with the mobs and their environments – especially in the explorable modes where you find different mobs in the same area depending on what path you choose.

Reaching 80 to me is opening up the world but not opening up new objectives to complete. I understand what you mean by going back to previous content again but that’s just the same as re-running a dungeon on World of Warcraft almost. There is a significant amount of content and events that you may like in GW2 but it will still get repetitive. Going back to complete events don’t enough of a reward to players at 80 as far as my experience. I don’t have the motivation to do events I’ve already completed as the rewards are not worth the effort and most events are just killing mobs so it may have been fun the first time but lacks the second.

“Urgoz’s Warren and The Deep”

Although I’ve never played GW1 i would have expected to see these type of mechanics in this game if i had played GW1. Having environmental challenges sounds like it could make Guild Wars 2 dungeons my enjoyable.

I’ll assume by you saying, “There’s often a disconnect with the mobs and their environments” that you mean something along the lines that the mobs in GW2 are not strategically placed meaning that they just place a group of mobs together in the same vicinity without using a certain mob to their full potential. Elaborate if you will.

The game just lacks level 80 PvE content, we are pinholed into 1 zone that offers the most reward and that reward isn’t all that rewarding. Dungeons can be fun, but mostly a headache since they are not friendly to the masses.

I feel that most endgame PvE isn’t worth the time, it isn’t fun fighting a champion for 5-10 minutes for a white drop, or even a dime-a-dozen skin that everyone has. I for whatever reason thought that crafting was going to have more unique skins, that is a huge letdown (master crafter). Also Cursed Shore, I imagined it was more like a PvE-Battle ground where the server pushes forward in like a “tunnel” forward, where a massive battle would take place to win the gates of Arah, instead you can run there no problem, or you have to wait for people to care enough to take it back, getting more and more rare these days.

//Repetition//

There’s a certain degree of this in all MMORPGs. As you say, WoW’s dungeons can get incredibly repetitive and, for many people, the gear is the only incentive to continue going back to a specific dungeon. I much prefer runing through an open world, packed with dynamic content, to powering through a dungeon a hundred times in a row. It might have been fun the first few times, but when it gets into double figures, it’s just not enough.

Now, I do believe that a better loot system needs to be in place for those who’d prefer to linger in Blazeridge Steppes as opposed to Orr or Frostgorge Sound but the principle is solid.

//GW1’s Elite Areas – Environments & Mobs//

I mean that the mobs in GW2’s dungeons, while sometimes strategically placed, do not always feel like they belong in a specific area. In the Ascalonian Catacombs (Explorable), there are two bosses with an identical model which are fought in exactly the same area depending on which path your team chose. Which of these mobs ‘belongs’ there in canon? What’s special about this area?

GW1’s Underworld elite area was not well designed, but its final boss was brilliant. He was fought in a place you could only access by completing all the other quests in the area – a great Hall of Judgement. SC’s aside, walking into it felt like crossing a threshold. It felt meaningful, foreboding. My character was in Dhuum’s resting place. His prison.

One of the biggest things they need to do is reduce the linearity of the game. the game is completely designed to funnel people through areas to 80. Areas become obsolete and you move on, until 80 and then only the 80 areas are worth playing in for any kind of real gain, and there’s not many of those.

What would be much better, and they kitten it like a lot of things is if all areas (save maybe the starting and one up from starting zones maybe) gave similar worth of drops and gathering. Instead of making people outlevel it, make it all the same level, and there’s a unique reason to finish each area. Like cooking, areas need unique deposits of ore and trees. They did wonderful with the plant distribution in the game. Some plants you only find in one area and it gives you a reason to gather there. Why did they do this with plants then completely forget for ore and logging? Blows the mind.

And drops too of course, make them good enough to be profitable. You don’t have to be dropping exotics, but make it worth people’s times to go back and play all these other areas. Make zones have unique rewards for completion like armor you won’t see or unique recipes, or access to special things, etc.

I’d rather have a lvl 30 max – lets say untill we get in LA with the Story and after that all zones will have same high level Dont argue me on dificulty. this can be done with numbers that “my lvl 30” will be as strong as “their current lvl 80”
People will get it really fast and then enjoy the whole game in a non liniar way.
Probably we will see this with the new expansion that all new zones added will be lvl 80.

Anyway, levels are just numbers no matter how you put it. As it its 10, 30, 50, 100, 1000 its still a number and doesn’t mean anything else then than that.
The lower it is the less people will have it as a carrot on a stick motivation.
The less lvl requirements on things – armors, weapons, storyline, etc – the less carrots ahead of the palyers

The motivation of playing should come from something else not this.

Look about the mini computer games like card games. Why do people still play them? They don’t get richer or get achievements. They do it for the challenge, for having fun, for a nice passing time activity.
Games nowadays, especially MMOs are just a “work” system that rewards you with bonuses. People have lost their goals if they dont get rewarded.
Its like you go to the work to get payed but you don’t enjoy it. In RL Many of us have these feelings when going to work. We always look forward to the salary day and Christmas bonuses. This “worker” mentality should be taken out of video games.

But i bet the one reason they make them is to accommodate young children with the perception of a “worker mind” that needs to work to get payed and that payment is their only goal.

All these “No end game” threads and other types of thread in this forum about legendary weapons, map completion, etc, have the feel of “a worker’s strike” when the company (A-Net) is not offering them things to work on. They feel they will not get payed at the end of the months, sorry at the end of the game. or that the company will fire them up.

kitten dude, word for word I agree with everything you said. It’s exactly how I feel.

As someone who was thoroughly entrenched in WoW’s endgame throughout Wrath and Cataclysm, I don’t understand why anyone would want that in this game. If you want WoW’s endgame, go play WoW. Guild Wars 2 is a different beast and it’s an extremely young one at that. Let the game grow.

It’s not that people are accustomed to the “Worker” system in Guild Wars 2, it’s that they need more rewards to accommodate for the time spent playing the game. People who play MMORPG’s seek progression. Not only progression but progression at a reasonable rate.

Scenario, ill stick to the same work example you mentioned: If you’re going to work and receiving $1 /hr for hard labor you’ll start to think is it worth it? That’s what i feel like while trying to obtain gear for my level 80. I spent a lot of time in Guild Wars 2 dungeons only to get minimum rewards. The game is so time investing that i just don’t play all together. This is just my thought and PvE endgame is my interest.

Many players will enjoy the game for itself and take in the environments while trotting through the landscape but to most people that’s a waste of time if your time is limited and you have other things you need to accomplish out of game. A fair endgame progression (Gear, weapons, Gold) needs to be established and so you don’t feel like your wasting your time because time spent outweighs the rewards gained.

I just wanted to point out something regarding the next sentence in your blog:
“Id like to see a boss in Guild Wars 2 where they jumped up to a high balcony and throw bombs that you have to dodge, just something that that doesn’t make the Combat bland.”

Both of these kind of scenarios already exist in GW2. Not in dungeons, just outside in the world. Bombers on roof throwing bombs at you, at a certain point coming down from the roofs and onto the street. 4 Thief adds and a veteran all going to stealth simultaniously, surrounding the target and then attacking.

100% world completion does NOT mean that you have explored everything. Not by a long shot.

Keep in mind that WoW has been around for years while GW2 is nearing two months. Things like “pokemon” probably weren’t in WoW when it came out. GW2 is going to have several mini-games, one of them is keg-brawl which is already in.

I do agree with you though that Zhaitan was way too easy. And many world bosses too.

I would agree with Archmortal on this, however, I think the OP and some others would benefit from “What is planned to come” I would too, but until the first major patch/expansion, we need to wait to judge too harshly, this game is still in infancy.

Archmortal.1027:

As someone who was thoroughly entrenched in WoW’s endgame throughout Wrath and Cataclysm, I don’t understand why anyone would want that in this game. If you want WoW’s endgame, go play WoW. Guild Wars 2 is a different beast and it’s an extremely young one at that. Let the game grow.

This. You really can’t compare a game with an extensive playerbase that’s had time to grow for almost a decade to a game that hasn’t even been out a year.

In given time, I’m sure more dungeons, more Mists PvP battlegrounds will be added, and probably raids too.

I have high hopes.

Reaching level 80 only means that you will stop earning trait points. It’s not an end to anything. You will keep earning skill points.
Reaching the current end of your personal story only means that you reached the current end of your personal story. It isn’t really the end of the game.
The rest of the world is still there. You don’t have to so something different. You simply completed your training as a hero, and you character base stats can’t get any better, and can go on doing all the stuff in the world, you can get better at making builds and using your skills, and you can also get better gear.

In other games you’d expect end-game after that. You are done with the game, and so you do the New Game+ and challengs, and achievements and other ‘endgame’ stuff.

That does not happen here. Everything in the world is available to you all the time.

There’s big bosses of all sizes both in dungeons and the world. Why putting them only in dungeons? And why in all dungeons?
Games like D&D have taught us that size does not matter. When you fight against god-like demilich whose body is nothing but as tiny skull, the battle can be as epic as when you fight against the tarrasque.

It’s true that there’s things that would make the game better, but copying some cutomary game template left by previous games won’t be one of those things.

The problem here is approaching the game with a mindset developed by playing other games.
And it’s not a problem ArenaNet can really fix, since the game is designed precisely not to follow that mindset.

Archmortal.1027:

As someone who was thoroughly entrenched in WoW’s endgame throughout Wrath and Cataclysm, I don’t understand why anyone would want that in this game. If you want WoW’s endgame, go play WoW. Guild Wars 2 is a different beast and it’s an extremely young one at that. Let the game grow.

You misunderstand my argument. I’m sure if i like the mechanics of WoW I’ll go play it but I’m trying to point out some of GW2’s dull points and how they could possibly be better. My main purpose was to share my thought on how to enrich the game. Not saying that GW2 needs to be WoW altogether, just adding in some detail of what i liked about World of Warcraft in comparison to Guild Wars 2.

Yes Guild Wars 2 is in its early stages, i know that. Yes Guild Wars 2 is different. Some aspects of the game are to linear which degrade long term enjoyment of the game. Maybe Guild Wars 2 tried to do something different for endgame such as having exploration and Dynamic Events as part as endgame content alongside Raids and Dungeons, but if MMORPG’s original style, of leveling and then moving to Raids and Dungeons is introduced to a new element of exploration (through content you’ve already been through) it’s kind of tough to switch out of that want of Dungeon progress and acquiring better gear. I acknowledge what they are trying to do for endgame but exploration is something a lot of people will have to work in to “ideal” endgame.

Of course I will let the game grow but I expected a little more for a MMORPG that has been released after a branching of MMORPG’s in the past years. i.e. MMORPG#1 has created a wooden block, and here comes along MMORPG#2 after some time that has created a wooden block but added a few colors to it. If you get that analogy.

Safer Saviour.9685:

I think you misunderstood what Arenanet meant by their ‘everything is endgame’ retoric.

In WoW, you are stuck running the same dungeons over and over until you get the gear to progress to the next level of dungeons and while running those dungeons can be fun, that’s all there is. You are stuck doing the same content over and over again. What getting to level 80 in GW2 does, is open up the whole world to you. Just like completing a dungeon for the first time in WoW, getting 100% map completion in an area doesn’t mean you’re done. You can go back to the areas you liked, play through the events you most enjoyed and garner gold/karma rewards adjusted to your level (I do believe something has to be done about the loot).

Okay, let me start by saying that I think GW2 has a lot of potential. That being said let me just express how I feel about something.

I don’t know why, really it is hard to understand, why people have such a strong HATE for World of Warcraft. Don’t get me wrong I’m not a fanboy but sometimes we have to face reality. You probably NEVER EVER played WoW to say that you have to run dungeons over and over and even if you did actually play the game and think/strongly believe it was played that way….. HOW IS IT DIFFERENT IN GW2??? For the LOVE of all the ’’KITTENS’’ in this game, can people stop saying non sense and talk kitten and compare those 2 games! Most of you don’t even succeed in doing so ANYWAY. IF.. and only IF you actually in reality played WoW for even more than 10 hours, how can you confirm without a doubt that you were doing dungeons over and over.. and over… HOLY GIGANTIC FACEPALM you were playing the game WRONG. Also in WoW you have MULTIPLE leveling zones.. for god sake if you were bored as hell of ‘’silverpine forest’’ you had the option to go to barrens, stonetalon mountain and such. There wasnt any real incentive to do dungeons at low level except to just see the story and such but eh same with GW2. Anyway my point wasnt to rent about one game or the other, all I am trying to explain is STOP comparing both games if you didn’t intensively played both and have a general experience of MMORPGS in general because all I’m seeing right now is fanboys trying to make ‘’their fav. game’’ look like the best.

On the OP subject, I totally agree.. It may sound harsh coming out that way but being a lvl 80 doesnt mean much, except playing barbie doll with your character.

I have two level 85s in WoW (didn’t start playing until Cataclysm)… And I beat Deathwing on both of them.

Yeah, it was cool running the Dragon Soul raid once per week to try and roll for improved gear on my first character. But by the time I did it with the second, I was just bored out of my mind.

Doing the same raid over and over again ad infinitum until new raid content comes out is silly.

Guild Wars conveniently removes this requirement by saying “Hey, you can get gear with level 80 stats from multiple sources. You don’t have to be stuck playing a single dungeon.”

I don’t even find most of the dungeon armor that appealing. In Guild Wars, you grind for appearance not for stats. Hence transmutation stones. (Yeah, I know that WoW implemented the same thing after ANet announced it’d be coming in GW2.)

Guild Wars events (like Halloween, which starts next week) are vastly better than WoW’s. I tried some of the WoW holidays and just found them very lackluster by comparison.

And I skimmed over Shadenmonk’s blog post.

As far as adding end-game content other than dungeons: They’re already planning this. Polymock is shown in the game (though not currently playable) and other content is hinted at as well.

I would like to note that you mention WoW’s new Pokemon-like mini-pet battle system.
Guild Wars had it first.
Polymock was implemented in the Eye of the North expansion, allowing you to collect Asuran polymock pieces and battle with mock versions of creatures.

I expect they may expand gladiatorial-type monster battles too… As these are shown in several renown heart quests, where you pick which monster you want to fight against.
It might be kind of fun to be thrown into a pen against a string of mobs (each successive mob being harder than the one before).

swerth.9864:

this game is still in infancy.

Lol @ all people chanting “it’s a young game give it time” etc. newsflash! People don’t really want to buy a game and have to wait half a year for it to catch up to current standards.

People have every right to judge the game in it’s current state.

Safer Saviour.9685:

In WoW, you are stuck running the same dungeons over and over

You mean like in this game then, only that the dungeons are not as well designed and the boss encounters are more simplistic.

Shadenmonk.7580:

Stuff.

I guess I misunderstood it because it sounds like you want to incorporate another game into this game. The ideas you think should be taken as example from WoW are essentially The Game Itself. The parts of GW2 you find to get repetitive after a while are things you are completely free to ignore. Yes it won’t necessarily stop the game from telling you when an event pops up (perhaps the suggestion should turn toward having an option to turn those alerts off? I haven’t seen one like that but I also didn’t bother looking specifically for one like that yet), but that feeling of repetition is born of your own mindset, not the design of the game. The experience boost from doing those events is nice, but it’s hardly necessary. Having started as a human in Queensdale I got the impression that the game wanted you to know that events are going to go on whether you’re participating in them or not. Stressing over tedium and repetition in a dynamic world is not the fault of the world.

Jmcdg.8706:

Stuff mostly about WoW comparisons and stuff.

tl;dr the gameplay comparisons are spot-on. WoW is grindy and repetitive by nature and design to the point that they’ve even turned their holiday events into more grind-intensive endeavors. (I say tl;dr because I had a text wall typed and then thought better of such an extensive critique) I really do like WoW, but it’s not a secret that most people with [x] goal will get on for an hour or two a day to grind the daily limit of rewards toward said goal until that one day a week comes along where they can [x] with other people in a raid/arena/roleplay environment.

Those are things a lot of people playing GW2 would say “no, this is a problem and I don’t want to play a game like that” which is why they play this game and not that game. This game isn’t like that and shouldn’t be compared to that, but it will be because that other game is the one that set all the precedents for success and longevity. One has succeeded for the better part of a decade while one is new and different, but just as fun. It’s the “people are afraid of change” idea all over again, it’s nothing new. People resist the idea of endgame like what GW2 seems to be going for because WoW taught them that they should grind for days and weeks and possibly months before they feel powerful; GW2 gives you nearly all the tools you need to be a competitive max level player almost before you even get there . When people complain about GW2 but play it anyway it’s because the game is actually fun, their way of thinking just hasn’t shifted paradigms yet (plus, you know… having no monthly subscription fee to keep playing adds a lot of incentive to adjust).

That said: the grindy bits of this game are by choice, not by design. I have seen nothing in this game that requires a player to repeat the same or similar tasks repeatedly with no clear end in sight. The exception to this is Legendaries, however the boon to GW2 Legendaries as opposed to other MMOs is that this one doesn’t require you to rely on a group of other players that have to agree that you are the best/most deserving candidate to have the opportunity to get one. The Zerging people do from one event to the next is something that later down the road you yourself might say “DID YOU EVEN PLAY THIS GAME FOR MORE THAN 10 HOURS YOU ARE DOING IT SO WRONG SHUT UP AND ENJOY THE KITTENS OUT OF IT!”

Yeni.1924

Lol @ all people chanting “it’s a young game give it time” etc. newsflash! People don’t really want to buy a game and have to wait half a year for it to catch up to current standards.

So tell me, what other brand new MMO has been more successful in its infancy than this one or the one that lasted for almost a decade and hasn’t been properly pared down to its own infancy when being compared to? Judging by its current state, GW2 is a far, FAR better and more complete MMO than any I’ve ever played within half a year of launch. And you know, I think it’s better than the current state of WoW too.

Archmortal.1027:

And you know, I think it’s better than the current state of WoW too.

No discussing with a blind fanboy who wants to brown nose all day and sweep issues under the rug I guess.

GW2 isn’t dull at 80 any more then WoW isn’t dull at max level. If it is dull maybe MMO’s aren’t for you? just saying …

I’m enjoying WvW, I’m enjoying dungeons and not even near bored of the game.

Yeni.1924:

Archmortal.1027:

And you know, I think it’s better than the current state of WoW too.

No discussing with a blind fanboy who wants to brown nose all day and sweep issues under the rug I guess.

I’ve been playing GW2 for all of a week. I couldn’t tell you the hour count between all my WoW characters, but I was pretty clearly playing it enough to qualify as an addicted fanboy. This game obviously has issues. It’s new and everyone is complaining about different things. I just don’t believe that the endgame and players choosing to do the same tasks over and over are valid things to complain about. One is there with plenty to do and the other is a player choice, not a design flaw.

So, do you actually have an answer to the question I asked you, or did you default to petty insults because you couldn’t think of anything?

I somewhat feel the same way. It’s not that there’s a lack of content at 80, but a lack of VARIETY that makes if feel that harms the game at level cap.

For example, if you want to get the Temple armour, you HAVE to do events for the Karma. Because they’re so expensive, you’re more inclined to do the events that give you the most Karma, and because them events are the same, with everyone doing them and no mediation from each other, it becomes a tedious task of trying to hit stuff, as opposed to fighting for your life.

Same with the Named Exotic skins. You have to gather materials, and then put them in the Mystic Forge.

What I feel would help with this would be multiple ways of achieving a goal.

For example, you want the Temple Armour.

• Have a Nicolas like NPC (for those who don’t know who Nic is, he asked for items and in return would give a Traveler’s Gift. He’d also be in a different place each week.) that asks for a number of items (hell, make him send a randomised list so everyone spreads out and aren’t fighting over the same mobs). In exchange he gives you a Gift which contains Karma. This can be completed once a day.

• As well as Nic, have Daily Order and Pact missions. Completing these awards Karma.

So now, instead of just events, we have three options: Events, Nic and Missions. If you get fed up of events, you can always work on Nic (which will probably get you involved in events on the way). If you’ve only got a short time, you can complete your Order mission.

Same with Weapon and Armour Skins.

• Have each Slayer achievement award an unlockable set of weapon / armour skins that mirror the creastures. As well as these, have the Weapon-master achievements unlock a skin for that weapon.

• Again, Nic. Have Gifts give the chance for unique skins. He’s traveled around, he’s bound to have some.

So again, as well as the Mystic Forge, we have three options: Mystic Forge, Nic and Achievements.

Hardly a massive list, and it could probably be added to further, but I feel it puts my point across. This game is an immense pleasure to explore. We need more activities that let us without falling behind on out personal path of progression.

TL;DR – What Will Help This Game Is More Variety While Working Towards A Goal.

People need to stop playing GW2 for character progression and play it for the fun of the game, for the sake of playing the game. It’s obvious that that’s what ArenaNet have always wanted with this game design.

That whole “everything is endgame” rhetoric? That means you get to do at 80 all the same stuff you got to do pre 80. Dungeons, PvE, WvW, anything you want.

If you enjoyed it before 80, why aren’t you enjoying it at 80? Unless the only reason you enjoyed it pre-80 is because your character was progressing. Well, if the only thing you find fun is continuous character progression, this game isn’t going to scratch that particular itch.

ArenaNet wants you to do the events because the events are fun, not because you get rewarded for doing the events. They want you to explore the world because exploring the world is fun, not because you get a little virtual carrot and a pat on the back when you’re done exploring the world.

Do things for the sake of doing them, because they’re fun. Not because you’ll get some pointless set of pixels for doing it.

And if they’re not fun, why are you doing them in the first place?

raphaeldisanto.5478:

People need to stop playing GW2 for character progression and play it for the fun of the game, for the sake of playing the game. It’s obvious that that’s what ArenaNet have always wanted with this game design.

It doesn’t really show, considering the dungeons are horrible in so many ways.

raphaeldisanto.5478:

People need to stop playing GW2 for character progression and play it for the fun of the game…

Unfortunately, there’s only so many times you can repeat something before it starts to get old. Events, for example, tend to all amount to the same thing: Defending and Taking Points or Escorting.

Yeni.1924:

swerth.9864:

this game is still in infancy.

Lol @ all people chanting “it’s a young game give it time” etc. newsflash! People don’t really want to buy a game and have to wait half a year for it to catch up to current standards.

People have every right to judge the game in it’s current state.

implying that WoW was any different when it first came out. other than the fact that it would set standards, as far i know, it wasn’t nearly where it is now. blizz has had nearly 10 years to perfect WoW. Anet is almost in the same boat considering that they are starting with a new template rather than just saying “hey lets clone WoW for the nine billionth time”

Yeni.1924:

Safer Saviour.9685:

In WoW, you are stuck running the same dungeons over and over

You mean like in this game then, only that the dungeons are not as well designed and the boss encounters are more simplistic.

once again, WoW’s dungeons in infancy were simplistic in design. boss fights hardly had anywhere near as many mechanics as they do now in that game. ok, so it took 40 people for some of them. the only real challenge was coordinating and getting 40 people to move all at the same time and do what was needed.

in actuality, there is hardly any point in comparing the two games. they’re two completely different beasts and Anet has constantly said that they weren’t making this game to compete with anything or to be another clone of another game.

I’m sorry but there’s no excuse in this day and age for simplistic dungeon mechanics, unless they were all designed five years ago. There are plenty of good examples to follow even if you’ve decided to throw out the trinity.

Most recent for me prior to GW2 release were the dungeons in The Secret World, not only did they flow extremely well with the story but they were also well varied and with fresh new takes on the old formulas, in addition they could be run on normal (story mode), elite and once unlocked nightmare modes and each difficulty level had extra and interesting mechanics added to keep it challenging.

GW2’s dungeons in contrast are like rewatching “Jurassic Park”.

im not disagreeing with that. in fact i find that Anet’s design philosophy to difficult boss fights is something along the lines of “give it lots of health and hit really hard. which will then drag the fight out.”

no, it’s not interesting. yes the lack of mechanics is disappointing when compared to other games. but this doesn’t mean that they won’t fix it.

i’ll admit, i’ve only done a few of the dungeons on explorable mode but still, they are relatively easy. at least the boss fights are.

as a side note, that doesn’t mean that jurassic park is a bad movie. in fact the effects are still spot on, and in some cases, more convincing than that of today’s. i guess i’ll let that speak for itself. sort of.

raphaeldisanto.5478:

People need to stop playing GW2 for character progression and play it for the fun of the game, for the sake of playing the game. It’s obvious that that’s what ArenaNet have always wanted with this game design.

And if they’re not fun, why are you doing them in the first place?

And therein lies the problem. It was fun. For awhile. Now it is just the same old thing over and over again. I played GW1 for years and never got bored. But I’m already bored with GW2. I think GW2 will survive as a PvP game, but I have doubts about PvE. There is no strategy involved. It’s all hack and slash and as long as you have a big enough crowd you can beat any event. There’s no planning, no figuring out what build is best against a given boss, or what professions were best to bring along. Everything that made GW1 awesome was just thrown out.

forrae.6708:

implying that WoW was any different when it first came out."

It was, it looked at the current standards and surpased them.

forrae.6708:

Yeni.1924:

Safer Saviour.9685:

In WoW, you are stuck running the same dungeons over and over

You mean like in this game then, only that the dungeons are not as well designed and the boss encounters are more simplistic.

once again, WoW’s dungeons in infancy were simplistic in design. boss fights hardly had anywhere near as many mechanics as they do now in that game. ok, so it took 40 people for some of them. the only real challenge was coordinating and getting 40 people to move all at the same time and do what was needed.

And still that was way more than dungeons in GW2 has, which is mostly hit it with everything you got and dodge a few token AoE’s. No matter how you try and spin it, GW2’s dungeons are by any comparison very simplistic and easy. Strategy is almost nonexistant.

I mean hey, Zaithan was just so marvelous, a fight that literally amounts to spamming one button while you stand still, and you’re pretty much in no danger at all.

MarzAttakz.9608:

I’m sorry but there’s no excuse in this day and age for simplistic dungeon mechanics, unless they were all designed five years ago. There are plenty of good examples to follow even if you’ve decided to throw out the trinity.

Most recent for me prior to GW2 release were the dungeons in The Secret World, not only did they flow extremely well with the story but they were also well varied and with fresh new takes on the old formulas, in addition they could be run on normal (story mode), elite and once unlocked nightmare modes and each difficulty level had extra and interesting mechanics added to keep it challenging.

GW2’s dungeons in contrast are like rewatching “Jurassic Park”.

Different strokes for different designers, and different balance for different games. The goal of every PvE scenario’s design is to flow and yes GW2’s crack at it has been kind of blunt and forceful. As a game, the balance design in dungeons seems to mesh well enough with the balance while solo-ing. If ANET decides to tone down the ridiculous HP and damage on dungeon mobs (the bosses are in a much better place than the mobs leading to them) then there’s no reason they can’t later develop hard-modes for things. Nodding toward WoW again, it never implemented more challenging modes until several years in, and they weren’t even so much “more challenging” as they were “this is the max-level equivalent of that dungeon,” which is something that holds true to this day. If I recall correctly, GW1 had difficulty modes as well. I don’t know if they were present at launch or not, but clearly there is very strong possibility that they will be implemented in GW2 once ANET is satisfied with the initial difficulty-vs.-capability balance.

On the note of mechanic complexity however, you’re dead wrong. If there’s no excuse why has every MMO that’s recently launched with the intention of becoming a big name had simple mechanics at launch? Nothing done by GW2 is any less complex than anything done by WoW or Star Wars (which was so faithful to the World of Warcraft archetype it took from that it posed less challenge to an individual than the Cave Troll in Queensdale poses to the group beating it up). Attacks being more clearly telegraphed so the player can rely on real-time observation rather than trial, error and third-party mods with attack timers is not “more simple” or “less complex,” it’s just better design (and without all those handicaps required in WoW it makes GW2 less artificially difficult). For instance, in AC Story Mode the Necromancer boss is balls easy, but her mechanics if implemented more effectively offer the opportunity to make the encounter challenging and engaging on par with any 5-man boss in any other game’s current standards. The Two-Boss pair is arguably more complex than any similar fight I’ve experienced in WoW. Yes you can lock one in a hallway but that seems like an oversight rather than something intended to be allowed. Fight the two of them together. They may have one or two fewer mechanics at work than Valiona and Theralion from World of Warcraft’s Bastion of Twilight 10/25-man raid but every single one of those mechanics is more effective at threatening your character without falling back on insta-death if you make a mistake. The Ranger boss is on par with every non-raid boss in WoW prior to its third expansion in terms of number of mechanics and function. All of these examples are found in the earliest dungeon of the game. The earliest dungeon in Star Wars deserves your “no excuse for this kind of simplicity these days” far more. I would mention the earliest dungeon of World of Warcraft, but apparently comparing games in their infancy is somehow more unfair than comparing one in its infancy to almost a decade of different tried-and-true design evolution.

I’m not saying the mechanics are phenomenal, but they’re effective and they are not lacking in complexity. What other game offers the option of knocking bosses over with boulders as a viable way to interrupt their actions? That’s added depth and variety which is indicative of deeper complexity.

The World bosses however, are definitely in need of some more complexity, or at least a tweak in mechanical execution that requires the players to experience the complexity present rather than find a safe spot and auto-attack while afk. Shadow Behemoth is a phenomenal World Boss for its location and level/experience expectancy, as is the Shaman in the 1-15 Norn zone (even though technically it’s not a world boss, still a great example), but with little in the way of difficulty progression beyond them there is definitely a problem.

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MiceElf.6897:

And therein lies the problem. It was fun. For awhile. Now it is just the same old thing over and over again. I played GW1 for years and never got bored. But I’m already bored with GW2. I think GW2 will survive as a PvP game, but I have doubts about PvE. There is no strategy involved. It’s all hack and slash and as long as you have a big enough crowd you can beat any event. There’s no planning, no figuring out what build is best against a given boss, or what professions were best to bring along. Everything that made GW1 awesome was just thrown out.

All these different things you talk about that made GW1 “boss prep” fun are present here. GW2 only makes it much more viable to stick with your favorite build rather than go out of your way to seek the most effective one (also these bosses are designed expecting a group of actual people, so the added fluff necessary when solo-ing with a group of AI isn’t accounted for).

As for “now it’s the same old thing” I refer you to almost every game ever, MMO or not. There’s almost always only so much to do and so many different ways to do it or paths to start from. The size and scope of Tyria are fantastic (compare it to another recent MMO’s world: Star Wars again, laughable and stale by comparison isn’t it?) and the events going in each zone keep the game from feeling like the most boring thing you’ve ever experienced while traveling from point A to point B, and if you think all that’s tedious well just skip to point B via waypoint. Waypoint cost is a separate issue, but overall it’s an extremely effective MMO World design. If you loved the PvE GW1 and don’t dig it in GW2 well I don’t know what to say to that. The PvE content of the two games was designed with completely different ideas in mind, and as such they turned out completely different.

On PvE hack and slash: the goal is to allow everyone to involve themselves. It would be impractical to implement Boss Mechanics on every event champion a group of people could happen across, and it would just make the game even harder on people who already have trouble completing events due to varying server densities. That said, the events with bosses that people constantly zerg between could definitely use some additional mechanics with their champions/veterans. As the zerg has just enough willpower to find a way to zerg somewhere regardless, it would at least require them to display a similar amount of skill that is sometimes necessary when an individual is solo-ing a veteran (Vollym’s Battle Pit’s heart quest comes to mind when choosing the hardest option as a good difficulty curve to shoot for) without further compromising the experience of those on servers with low or sparse populations.

-EDIT- Upon further thought, the Champion Bandit that the zerg in Kessex Hills fights against represents a pretty solid balance of difficulty and mechanics. So perhaps make more of the Champions/bosses that get zerg’d constantly adhere to a similar difficulty/mechanic structure.

Yeni.1924:

And still that was way more than dungeons in GW2 has.

You’ll note, having a hundred people fighting Zhaitan doesn’t make the fight more complex. The same is true of 40 people running around trying to work together in WoW. WoW’s release did not have anything in any of its numerous (I’ll give you that, WoW did have more dungeons) regular 5-man dungeons on par with anything in any of GW2’s dungeons. After 4 years and with WoW’s first expansion the game was still relying on health pools and damage numbers in its small-group content rather than numerous mechanics (and in the cases of numerous mechanics even presently in WoW they are a timed pattern rather than a dynamic series of actions or events- imagine a champion mob hostile to both you and the enemy randomly popping in on a boss instead of just on regular mobs, now THAT is an idea ANET should take into consideration and one their design philosophy could easily incorporate if they don’t already have plans for something like that).

The dungeon boss mechanics often achieve depth where other games impose patterns of behavior to veil the lack of it, and when they don’t achieve that there are at least very clear indications that they were trying for it and nothing more than a little tweaking is necessary for the fights that are lacking.

I mean seriously, was anyone really expecting this to adhere to their dreams of the best MMO ever?

There’s alot Arenanet failed to take into consideration when it came to GW2.
Other mmo’s have a gradual loot progression via dungeons which intrun make them worth running. Once you’re geared at 80 in GW2 there is very little incentive to run them again. I and a group of my friends can vouch for this as we have absoultely no interest to run them again. We’re pretty geared. I have 3sets of different gear which I have nowhere to use them.
Once you have 100% map complete all zones besides Orr become useless unless farming for certain nodes or drops but even that is negligible. Would be nice if certain items say weapon/armour, mini pets or certain vanity items dropped off certain mobs but instead everything is basically the same.
Explore modes should be a gradual progression loot wise in my opinion. Arah should have better stats which reflect the epicness of not only defeating Zhaitan (the main protagonist) but the journey through it’s explore modes too. Arah shouldve been ‘end game’ instead it’s just another dungeon.

I for one never touched gw1 and will not adopt the same mentality that most gw1 players are trying to force feed everyone; It’s all about looks.
Yes it is all about looks but there comes a point where you’ve got your look and need to show it off somewhere but really have nothing to do but stand in the Bank or Trading House in Lions Arch and hope that somebody notices you -_-

Level 80’s need something to do other than run around the dismal Cursed Shore or run dungeons until their eyes bleed or zerg around in WvW. So many other mmo’s borrowed from WoW model, why didn’t Arenanet?
i can say i’ve completed the game and came away with more than a little disappointment for six years worth of waiting…
I wholeheartedly agree with the OP 150% The urge to log in has declined. guess the Novemeber content patch will be my calling?

vlaka.2198:

1) I for one never touched gw1 and will not adopt the same mentality that most gw1 players are trying to force feed everyone; It’s all about looks.

2) So many other mmo’s borrowed from WoW model, why didn’t Arenanet?

While I agree with most of what you say, such as there not being enough to do at 80, there are some points I disagree on:

1) If you’re not going to adopt the ’It’s all about looks’ mentality, you can’t expect the game to change around your mentality of ‘I need bigger numbers as incentive to do stuff’. There’s a reason why they didn’t go with stat progression, and I for one am thankful for it. Not to mention you said you waited 6 years. You should of expected this, to be honest.

2) What’s the point of trying to ‘innovate’ if all they’re going to do is borrow the WoW model of end-game gear progression and just running dungeons and raiding? Not only that, there’s no guarantee that copying WoW’s model of end-game will result in success.

More skins, more fluff and more variety of stuff to do that will take people back out into the world (as opposed to just Orr), and I think the game would be set without needing WoW’s model.

TheDaiBish.9735:

vlaka.2198:

1) I for one never touched gw1 and will not adopt the same mentality that most gw1 players are trying to force feed everyone; It’s all about looks.

2) So many other mmo’s borrowed from WoW model, why didn’t Arenanet?

While I agree with most of what you say, such as there not being enough to do at 80, there are some points I disagree on:

1) If you’re not going to adopt the ’It’s all about looks’ mentality, you can’t expect the game to change around your mentality of ‘I need bigger numbers as incentive to do stuff’. There’s a reason why they didn’t go with stat progression, and I for one am thankful for it. Not to mention you said you waited 6 years. You should of expected this, to be honest.

2) What’s the point of trying to ‘innovate’ if all they’re going to do is borrow the WoW model of end-game gear progression and just running dungeons and raiding? Not only that, there’s no guarantee that copying WoW’s model of end-game will result in success.

More skins, more fluff and more variety of stuff to do that will take people back out into the world (as opposed to just Orr), and I think the game would be set without needing WoW’s model.

i didnt mean it to sound like I wanted the WoW pve model copied exactly, just the gradual progression of acquiring loot and the prospect of possibly bigger and better instances/content but yes, I do see your point

I have played WoW since it started, I even had the collectors set and ran around with mini D :P

All I can say is, I will take this 2 month old game over WoW any day.

If you are bored in this game, you must not be looking around enough in game. One of the great things about this game is if you go to a zone at 80 you are dropped down to still be able to fight in that zone. So you can do events, quests and explore.

I don’t know, maybe I am just happy I am not playing a game where Gear is always the main focus of how fun it is.

thats fair enough but once you’re at 100% map complete there’s no point in repeating anything…can’t redo heart quests (not that I can see why anyone would want to) which is the point of this thread ;D

vlaka.2198:

thats fair enough but once you’re at 100% map complete there’s no point in repeating anything…can’t redo heart quests (not that I can see why anyone would want to) which is the point of this thread ;D

Actually, assuming you have the time and desire to make the effort for multiple Legendaries, you can only make so many before you have to get 100% on another character, which means doing hearts again.

Honestly given how many times I’ve repeated the same quest in WoW, being able to redo a heart where there’s more than one way to help is aces for MMO replay value.

hey did u know why people these games over and over again?

- dota
- dota 2
- team fortress 2
- counter strike 1.6
- counter strike source
- counter strike global offensive
- league of legends

In the future do you guys plan to make a REAL GW2? As in more similar to the first game that was fully unique and not this “World Wars” that is NOTHING like GW1 and is just entirely a new game that feels like any free mmo you can just go download off some website that holds your attention for a month or two but feels like it was slapped together without any real sense of “Keep you going”

I am truely a bit disappointed in GW2 as I was a HUGE GW1 fun playing since release date and played all the way ill GW2 then now im just bored its not the same at all. GW1 had features of endless skills to choose from, quests to accomplish, titles that didnt involve only grinding, required team work with missions and dungeons. GW2 is just a “You can do the entire game solo but teams are an option oh yeah and you can only use this spoon full of features and options so any 11yr old can play the game just fine”

I agree with the general context of this post. I personally find the lack of large structured PvE content the most dissapointing. While you have dragons that respawn once every 3 hours, the feel of achieving something with your friends is not there. Also, the lack of unequality in gear is dissapointing. I would be ok with a certain degree of unequality in PvE gear, so that you have something to strive for.

I was really hoping for an evolution of the “monster invasion” mechanics of say Tabula Rasa when it came to Orr in GW2.

Where we’d actually have a NPC threat that was an actual threat and functioned as an army playing against the players, intelligently, to conquer, hold, and retake territory.

Instead we got a zerg merry go round.

Extremely disappointed.

My suggestion? Go back to the drawing board on Orr.

Archmortal.1027:

After 4 years and with WoW’s first expansion the game was still relying on health pools and damage numbers in its small-group content rather than numerous mechanics

Hahaha, what a load of bullkitten, your head must be so far up Anets kitten that you taste their food before they do.

Yeah a fight like Vashj was all about a bloated HP pool, or Moroes for that matter. Both of these fights had infinitely more depth than just about anything in GW2 dungeons which all mainly rely on spotting small attack animations that deal lots of damage amongst a ton of obstructive particle effects.

People like you are doing the game a disservice by pretending these glaring issues don’t exist and that the game is far more glorious than it actually is.

anyone think that with the sheer ammount of threads like this popping up on a daily basis, maybe they should address the issue head on and have some kind of Q&A about it?

Just making note, the game is …what? 3 Months Old?

WoW took 6(?) months before it got Molten Core?

With the goodness on the 16-18th, that makes it less than 4 months until new content. Still two months ahead of WoW’s first big content bomb.

-Hate

The fact that they are even called “dynamic events” in GW2 is a joke. By definition they are “static events”. They never change. They are not spontaneous. They are exactly the same every few minutes since August 25th.

I was hoping for something more along the lines of Rift invasions. Something that wanders the zone looking for players to fight. Not something that always fights in the same predesignated battle area.

Plinx meta? A bot could run that event chain.