Guild Wars 2

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

ATMAvatar.5749:

A trinity system doesn’t make for much more exciting combat. It just creates a privileged minority out of tanks and healers. So now, instead of a dungeon group just falling apart because of rampant stupidity and failure, it can also fall apart because of primadonnas rage-quitting when you don’t bend to their will.

Yes, a balanced trinity system does all that crap you mentioned, which is why having friends and a good guild to play with made the experience much more enjoyable.

What you are wrong about is that having a balanced trinity does actually make combat more interesting, complex, strategic and rewarding. We can go on about this for hours, but it is pretty much a fact that cooperative play and meaningful encounters were much better in GW1 due to a balanced trinity than in GW2.

I still say Guild Wars 1 didn’t have a trinity. WoW has a trinity.

The reason Guild Wars 1 didn’t have a trinity is because there’s no aggro mechanic. There’s no taunt mechanic. Sure Guild Wars 1 players called certain people tanks, but tanks weren’t strictly necessary, at least in PVe.

I never used a tank in PVe. Not once. That means that in Guild Wars 1, the trinity didn’t exist. Not as it does in other games.

Based on your definition I agree 100%. I also never did the whole tank thing in GW1.

My opinion of the trinity in GW1 would look more like a balance between damage, healing/prot and utility. Or, frontline, midline and backline.

Have you played many other MMOs. If you did, you’d know why I hate the trinity. It’s very constricting. Not just on the player’s side, but on the development side as well.

I played Rift for a while and I have to tell you, I learned to hate the trinity as it exists in most MMOs.

Which doesn’t mean Guild Wars 2’s combat couldn’t be improved. But I think there is a lot to the combat that only really comes into play in a couple of hard encounters.

Yeah, here is the rub, I haven’t played any other MMO’s. I have tried them and quit after a week or two.

Guild Wars 1 was it for me, so my views on the genre are a bit warped. I played a few FPS games I liked and I am a big fan of the Elder Scroll games.

I really like the action oriented style of GW2, I just think the synergy in teams from GW1 is missing.

A lot of the synergy is optional, or hidden. They made a game people could zerg, but if you play with the same people day in and day out Guild Wars 2 has a lot of ways you can syngerize. It’s just knowing those ways, or learning them. Many are not immediately apparent.

One encounter I like to talk about is the Flame Elemental in the fractals, at the end of the grawl path. A lot of people have trouble with that battle. Particularly at one point, when the elemental gets a fire shield around it and summons lava elementals. That’s when a lot of groups wipe.

When I’m there on my mesmer, using the fourth greatsword skill, in combination with timewarp takes that shield down in seconds.

Actually as a mesmer, I don’t really do enough damage. I’m far more based in support. I do depend on other people to damage creatures while I support the party with boons and hurt the enemy with conditions. It’s sort of the role I made for myself. But I’m always helping the party.

A lot of the fields I lay down I do for the party to combo off of, and I usually say when the field is going down on mumble, so people can capitilize off it.

In fact, this game is usually hard on pugs, but great if you’re playing with a team of the same people day in and day out. There are so many things you can bring. One of our normal team includes a ranger in it. While the ranger is often considered to be of questionable use in a dungeon, we find that the search and rescue pet thing can be very handy and has occassionally gotten us out of trouble.

As a guild we talk about what we’re bringing so we don’t always double up on things, and we have a variety of skills represented. Some people are better at some jobs than others.

But the roles are less defined by the game and more defined by our skills as players and our play styles.

Those who think this game is becoming WoW should be forced to play WoW for a few months. They would see just how wrong they are.

lothefallen.7081:

LunaNosCustodit.1458:

I think you might have entirely missed the point of what GW2 is trying to accomplish.

Which is?

Sell cash shop items? Time-gate you with grinds? Inject vertical progression? Toy with the economy to encourage RMT? Trivialize GW1 lore and fandom to market to a larger audience? Sell out GW1 fans with braindead combat mechanics and fights like CoF p1 end boss? Destroy any depth that players enjoyed in GW1?

If by all that you mean make the game more accessible to the casual majority and make putting time into the game yield aesthetic rewards as opposed to gating new/casual players by a huge stat disparity, then, yeah. You’ve got it spot on.

eisberg.2379:

lothefallen.7081:

Crossaber.8934:

lothefallen.7081:

Auesis.7301:

I strictly bought this game because the lack of a totally solid trinity would prevent forcing me in to a designated role with no flexibility.

You would take that away.

There’s a reason I don’t play any other MMO.

So you like being a jack of all trades, master of none, marginalized purpose..someone that is just a number in a sea of numbers? Flexibility would be allowing a Guardian or Necromancer fully spec into a healing role. Try that here, kitten your team’s efficiency. Flexibility is in the eye of the beholder.

Yes, this is exactly the reason the players who don’t enjoy trinity will love GW2 like me.
I for myself really hate the needs of tank and healer in a party, i prefer every member is needed equally.

And i agree GW2 got a lot room to improve but definitely not the suggestion of making trinity return or suddenly add a healer class. This combat system is new and Anet should develop more deeper and interesting encounter around it, not making a totally overhaul to such a fantastic system.

But i guarantee you your ranger is not as valuable to the party as a guardian. Your ele doesn’t have time warp, your engineer can’t put out damage or take damage like a warrior.

We already have a soft trinity formed. Guardian, Mesmer, Warrior…the game is extremely unbalanced. With a healer class, encounters would improve, team engagement would improve, so many reasons why this game could use a class system overhaul.

Guardian has such good support, mesmer has great utility, warrior has great damage…that’s like the trinity anyways. Why not add a healer class so that all team specs can be viable? I can run 4 rangers and a healer…balance the classes around the healer..so much potential.

You must think fights like Jormag and braindead mechanics like down state are the way of the future. I question the mentality of everyone who doesnt at least think of what the game would be like if it was designed with more defined roles.

Braindead? Mentality of others?
Seriously, get off your high horse. I haven’t meant anyone with a mature mentality who believes that it is their way, and anyone who disagrees has mental issues.

Real adults knows that people have different likes and dislikes, different opinions when it comes to game design, and will have the mental maturity to not insult people for having differing opinions then they do.

I’m just saying people that reject trinity on a narrow basis like they dont want to strategize. think or cooperate in a game…or that they think it’s like WoW tank and spank…im speaking specifically of people who know nothing of combat in GW1. Im sure if these people against it actually played GW1, they’d see that Anet really sold out their fans. There is logical reasoning behind trinity mechanics making fights more deep and engaging. To say that down state and a self heal button is better than another interactive class specialization that contributes to team depth…that’s just an idiotic thing to say and i fully believe that people thinking this are in a deficient mental state regardless of their likes or dislikes.

LunaNosCustodit.1458:

lothefallen.7081:

LunaNosCustodit.1458:

I think you might have entirely missed the point of what GW2 is trying to accomplish.

Which is?

Sell cash shop items? Time-gate you with grinds? Inject vertical progression? Toy with the economy to encourage RMT? Trivialize GW1 lore and fandom to market to a larger audience? Sell out GW1 fans with braindead combat mechanics and fights like CoF p1 end boss? Destroy any depth that players enjoyed in GW1?

If by all that you mean make the game more accessible to the casual majority and make putting time into the game yield aesthetic rewards as opposed to gating new/casual players by a huge stat disparity, then, yeah. You’ve got it spot on.

GW1 gear was capped at level 20. The rewards there were truly aesthetic, your point is pretty much moot given ascended gear and vertical grind injections to time-gate people and encourage RMT for in-game gold. Seems like a naive perspective you have. Im not encouraging gating with gear, but im saying that it’s already in GW2 and it was never in GW1. You have to realize this. There was never max gear in GW1 with a new rarity tier and increased stat gains from it. They are effectively gating new players anyway, you just dont see it because you’re not a new player. Tell a new player that loves alts and WvW, if he wants to be fully viable, he has to grind for 6 ascended pieces on each character and soon he will have to grind each character up for WvW ranks.

Tell me again how it’s accessible for new players. They’re going back on their word all the time. Wouldn’t be surprised if we get a healer class in the next expansion, the game’s combat depth could be severely revitalized as a result.

Anet during GW1: Hey, lets make a truly awesome game guys!

Anet during GW2: Hey, lets dumb our game WAY down and get people to buy tons of stuff off our gem store for monies!

ATMAvatar.5749:

A trinity system doesn’t make for much more exciting combat. It just creates a privileged minority out of tanks and healers. So now, instead of a dungeon group just falling apart because of rampant stupidity and failure, it can also fall apart because of primadonnas rage-quitting when you don’t bend to their will.

Well, I’m not seeing a whole lot of merit in the “dps your rear-end off and when there’s a circle on the ground hit your dodge button” model either, to be honest. It was novel at first, now it’s just…well…a novelty.

And weapon choices?

I’m a guardian, holding a sword in one hand and a torch(?!) in the other and what’s my defense from going face to face with somebody? Roll around the ground like an Olympic gymnast in plate armor. Oh you don’t want to do that? Well then you need to grab a scepter and play tennis in your plate armor. Just make sure you don’t stand too close because in most of these fights, you try to melee and you’ll be dead in seconds because you can’t see the boss with all the particle effects to know when to roll around on the floor like a gymnast in your plate armor.

“Can I use my shield?”

Sure, but you don’t use it to block, really. You use it to shoot out some white light that does very minor damage.

“Well I need to be able to block.”

Oh, in that case you want to use a focus(?!) which has a blind and a shield.

“I’m confused.”

Doesn’t matter…just get in there and dps.

Oh, and if somebody goes down…just res ’em.

IO I am totally with you man. I played GW for 6 years and found the combat there to be so much deeper and rich than what I find in GW2. Which isn’t to say that I don’t enjoy it, I just think that the combat had more going on. The combination of skill times and interupts, managing energy all while kiting or chasing was epic. Energy alone added so much depth, it was a whole extra resource you had to manage in combat.

I understand the frustration with “GLF Monk to go” but eventually it go to the point where several classes could play semi effective healers. I wish that we weren’t forced to take healing skills, so that if one member wanted to be dedicated healer, the rest of the team could pile on more damage to compensate. As it stands now this isn’t really possible.

I just came here to say “Nope.”

Because dodging is the only way that you can avoid damage…there’s no way you can control enemies or support allies.

Yea…

• Conditions: wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition
• Crowd Control: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crowd_control
• Boons: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Boon

Those things aren’t used at all…

I am ashamed that I took the bait.

lothefallen.7081:

eisberg.2379:

lothefallen.7081:

Crossaber.8934:

lothefallen.7081:

Auesis.7301:

I strictly bought this game because the lack of a totally solid trinity would prevent forcing me in to a designated role with no flexibility.

You would take that away.

There’s a reason I don’t play any other MMO.

So you like being a jack of all trades, master of none, marginalized purpose..someone that is just a number in a sea of numbers? Flexibility would be allowing a Guardian or Necromancer fully spec into a healing role. Try that here, kitten your team’s efficiency. Flexibility is in the eye of the beholder.

Yes, this is exactly the reason the players who don’t enjoy trinity will love GW2 like me.
I for myself really hate the needs of tank and healer in a party, i prefer every member is needed equally.

And i agree GW2 got a lot room to improve but definitely not the suggestion of making trinity return or suddenly add a healer class. This combat system is new and Anet should develop more deeper and interesting encounter around it, not making a totally overhaul to such a fantastic system.

But i guarantee you your ranger is not as valuable to the party as a guardian. Your ele doesn’t have time warp, your engineer can’t put out damage or take damage like a warrior.

We already have a soft trinity formed. Guardian, Mesmer, Warrior…the game is extremely unbalanced. With a healer class, encounters would improve, team engagement would improve, so many reasons why this game could use a class system overhaul.

Guardian has such good support, mesmer has great utility, warrior has great damage…that’s like the trinity anyways. Why not add a healer class so that all team specs can be viable? I can run 4 rangers and a healer…balance the classes around the healer..so much potential.

You must think fights like Jormag and braindead mechanics like down state are the way of the future. I question the mentality of everyone who doesnt at least think of what the game would be like if it was designed with more defined roles.

Braindead? Mentality of others?
Seriously, get off your high horse. I haven’t meant anyone with a mature mentality who believes that it is their way, and anyone who disagrees has mental issues.

Real adults knows that people have different likes and dislikes, different opinions when it comes to game design, and will have the mental maturity to not insult people for having differing opinions then they do.

I’m just saying people that reject trinity on a narrow basis like they dont want to strategize. think or cooperate in a game…or that they think it’s like WoW tank and spank…im speaking specifically of people who know nothing of combat in GW1. Im sure if these people against it actually played GW1, they’d see that Anet really sold out their fans. There is logical reasoning behind trinity mechanics making fights more deep and engaging. To say that down state and a self heal button is better than another interactive class specialization that contributes to team depth…that’s just an idiotic thing to say and i fully believe that people thinking this are in a deficient mental state regardless of their likes or dislikes.

I disagree with you. I do not believe that Trinity inherently make fights more deep and engaging, it is the design of the fights themselves that makes them deep and engaging. WoWs fights in Vanilla were very shallow, even the raids were very shallow. But the developers over time made new fights more deep and engaging in subsequent content updates and expansions.

GW2 is a new design, and I bet we will see the encounters evolve over time. No, the open world stuff will not evolve, those will always stay as zergs, just as quests in other MMOs were very easy to do. But the dungeons content encounters will evolve over time as the developers learn themselves.

Vorch.2985:

Because dodging is the only way that you can avoid damage…there’s no way you can control enemies or support allies.

Yea…

• Conditions: wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition
• Crowd Control: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crowd_control
• Boons: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Boon

Those things aren’t used at all…

I am ashamed that I took the bait.

A 2 second stun is not “crowd control.”

It’s an interrupt, at best.

Here’s another opinion of Guild Wars 1’s combat. It just occurred to me.

With the exception of very very few end game instances, I could completely any hard mode dungeon in the game with any character and a team of heroes and henchmen that I already had set up.

So with my minion master, a couple of spirit spammers, a mesmer, and an interupt ranger, it didn’t even matter what character I took.

I could take any character and do anything or nothing, because the heroes were so powerful.

Now, you could say the strategy of setting up those heroes (and choosing the right henchmen to compliment them) was a skill. Except that anyone could look up team builds on PVX-Wiki. There would be no skill involved at all.

I could walk through any dungeon just auto attacking and beat pretty much anything using heroes and henchmen. There were exceptions, obviously, like elite areas where you couldn’t take henchmen, but they were the exceptions.

Just like there are exceptions in Guild Wars 2. You have to be pretty good to do the higher level fractals, or Arah or even some paths of CoE.

Vayne.8563:

I still say Guild Wars 1 didn’t have a trinity. WoW has a trinity.

The reason Guild Wars 1 didn’t have a trinity is because there’s no aggro mechanic. There’s no taunt mechanic. Sure Guild Wars 1 players called certain people tanks, but tanks weren’t strictly necessary, at least in PVe.

I never used a tank in PVe. Not once. That means that in Guild Wars 1, the trinity didn’t exist. Not as it does in other games.

No, not as in other games because of the lack of taunts. There was, however, an aggro mechanic, although there was some disagreement in the community over how it worked. It was possible to influence mobs to attack one character, who was then bolstered by Prot Spirit and heals while everyone else wailed away. Also, it was possible to use collision detection to control mobs.

I think the ideal combat mechanics might only exist in an as-yet-unexplored middle ground. Classic trinity, massive numbers of skills most of which see use infrequently, global cooldowns and static spell/ability use are all dated mechanics which suck the life out of combat for me. People talk about auto-attacking bosses in GW2. I don’t. What I do is much more interesting than standing in one spot spamming Flash Heal and Renew on one target through the whole fight. And what about DPS attack chains macroed onto one key? How is that interesting — unless all you like from your game is to watch big numbers above your target.

However, there is also something to be said for roles being better-defined. I thought, based on the GW2 pre-launch publicity, that CC was going to play a greater role in team play. Truth is, other than slows, CC is of limited use in PvE. Healing is not robust. Almost all of the team support options require fairly close proximity, but the team has to be coordinated for that. In a typical PuG, people freelance. I wish I had a silver for every time a player has dodge-rolled out of my Mark of Blood.

Vayne.8563:

Here’s another opinion of Guild Wars 1’s combat. It just occurred to me.

With the exception of very very few end game instances, I could completely any hard mode dungeon in the game with any character and a team of heroes and henchmen that I already had set up.

So with my minion master, a couple of spirit spammers, a mesmer, and an interupt ranger, it didn’t even matter what character I took.

I could take any character and do anything or nothing, because the heroes were so powerful.

Now, you could say the strategy of setting up those heroes (and choosing the right henchmen to compliment them) was a skill. Except that anyone could look up team builds on PVX-Wiki. There would be no skill involved at all.

I could walk through any dungeon just auto attacking and beat pretty much anything using heroes and henchmen. There were exceptions, obviously, like elite areas where you couldn’t take henchmen, but they were the exceptions.

Just like there are exceptions in Guild Wars 2. You have to be pretty good to do the higher level fractals, or Arah or even some paths of CoE.

True, but that could just be because they didn’t make the dungeons hard enough or they made the hero AI too good. But you’re basically making a good point: builds mattered in GW1. Sure you could copy a setup, but having a balance of healing, interrupts, damage, and utility was important. No one pauses before a dungeon run to make sure someone can strip boons, or has an AoE heal, or anything like that. Why? Because if everyone is good enough, it doesn’t really matter.

No Walking.6349:

Look at all the dungeons, it’s dodging and damaging. Look at all the world bosses, dodging and damaging. Look at all the guild bounties, just damaging.

I mean, it sounds good on paper not having a trinity, but in the real game it just makes it to where all the boss fights are just an easy DPS race. No technique, planning, or skill is required by the groups at all.

Guild missions are supposed to be guild endgame PvE now right? Well then why does it all consist of just finding a mob on a set path, then AFK auto-attacking hum for 5 minutes? This isn’t right at all. Greatly looking forward to having both WvW and the trinity in TES:O.

Its sounds like YOU need the trinity not the game because you are unable to recognized the skill that put into play of avoiding the dmg and being able to put out dmg with out taking dmg in return. If any thing the trinity lets dmg dealer tanks and support play with a great deal less skill because some one is covering part of your job as a player.

Even trinity games are trying to break away from being trinity. FFXI for example. At first it was as trinity as it could get. Now, as long as you have whatever DPS role the devs have beefed up for the month, and a scholar, you can beat just about anything.

I did like trinity games. I liked strategy. But to say this game lacks strategy isn’t true. Try doing a dungeon with PUG. You would think if they just listened, it would be easy. But for me, it never has been. There’s always been at least 1 or 2 people that have made it difficult in one way or another that had forced me into working around them.

I don’t know what activities you are doing that you can afk and auto attack, other than maybe some DE and a certain boss in HOTW.

Trinity games are quickly becoming a thing of the past. I don’t know where this idea that TESO will be trinity is coming from. If you watch the video, it sounds like it will be exactly like GW2.

If GW1 is your idea of a good game, stick with it, cause likely there will never be another game like it.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

I still say Guild Wars 1 didn’t have a trinity. WoW has a trinity.

The reason Guild Wars 1 didn’t have a trinity is because there’s no aggro mechanic. There’s no taunt mechanic. Sure Guild Wars 1 players called certain people tanks, but tanks weren’t strictly necessary, at least in PVe.

I never used a tank in PVe. Not once. That means that in Guild Wars 1, the trinity didn’t exist. Not as it does in other games.

No, not as in other games because of the lack of taunts. There was, however, an aggro mechanic, although there was some disagreement in the community over how it worked. It was possible to influence mobs to attack one character, who was then bolstered by Prot Spirit and heals while everyone else wailed away. Also, it was possible to use collision detection to control mobs.

I think the ideal combat mechanics might only exist in an as-yet-unexplored middle ground. Classic trinity, massive numbers of skills most of which see use infrequently, global cooldowns and static spell/ability use are all dated mechanics which suck the life out of combat for me. People talk about auto-attacking bosses in GW2. I don’t. What I do is much more interesting than standing in one spot spamming Flash Heal and Renew on one target through the whole fight. And what about DPS attack chains macroed onto one key? How is that interesting — unless all you like from your game is to watch big numbers above your target.

However, there is also something to be said for roles being better-defined. I thought, based on the GW2 pre-launch publicity, that CC was going to play a greater role in team play. Truth is, other than slows, CC is of limited use in PvE. Healing is not robust. Almost all of the team support options require fairly close proximity, but the team has to be coordinated for that. In a typical PuG, people freelance. I wish I had a silver for every time a player has dodge-rolled out of my Mark of Blood.

Yeah, the chain attack on the number 1 weapon skill was really disappointing to me. Really dumbed it down, I thought.

No Walking.6349:

Heijincks.9267:

No, we don’t need a trinity. The last thing GW2 needs is to stray away from its niche and become more like other MMORPGs.

It’s niche was the AWESOME system of GW1….they already strayed away from that and made it MUCH worse.

GW1’s combat system isn’t the exact same as GW2. Most people disagree with having a trinity system in GW2. In other words, it’s your problem, not the game’s.

Asides, lack of trinity makes you liable for what you do. You can’t blame your fellow players for blunders as far as combat is concerned. Keeps the spouting of bullkitten at bay for one good thing.

shyrith.3462:

Even trinity games are trying to break away from being trinity. FFXI for example. At first it was as trinity as it could get. Now, as long as you have whatever DPS role the devs have beefed up for the month, and a scholar, you can beat just about anything.

I did like trinity games. I liked strategy. But to say this game lacks strategy isn’t true. Try doing a dungeon with PUG. You would think if they just listened, it would be easy. But for me, it never has been. There’s always been at least 1 or 2 people that have made it difficult in one way or another that had forced me into working around them.

I don’t know what activities you are doing that you can afk and auto attack, other than maybe some DE and a certain boss in HOTW.

Trinity games are quickly becoming a thing of the past. I don’t know where this idea that TESO will be trinity is coming from. If you watch the video, it sounds like it will be exactly like GW2.

If GW1 is your idea of a good game, stick with it, cause likely there will never be another game like it.

I wouldn’t equate people not having a clue how to do a dungeon in a PUG with the difficulty of the dungeon, to be honest.

And just because I liked how GW1 put an importance on player position along with better defined roles doesn’t mean I want to go back to GW1.

I just don’t understand how people think the fighting mechanics as they stand now in GW2 don’t need improvement.

Shocks me, to be honest.

The bigger issue at hand: The game needs some difficulty like 30+ fractals.

Then the baddies would all be dead and the smart players would continue to have fun and kill kitten (and people might play more supportive roles)

No Walking.6349:

Kaeden.6952:

There is a trinity,

It’s called:

Damage
Control
Support

ROFL, oh ok. So that must be why I can AFK any boss in the game outside of fractal lvl 30+ This includes all the world bosses and guild bounties.

No, we need a trinity.

Afk any boss? I call BS on it. Show me a boss where you can afk auto atk on it without other people wailing on it.

Jski.6180:

No Walking.6349:

Look at all the dungeons, it’s dodging and damaging. Look at all the world bosses, dodging and damaging. Look at all the guild bounties, just damaging.

I mean, it sounds good on paper not having a trinity, but in the real game it just makes it to where all the boss fights are just an easy DPS race. No technique, planning, or skill is required by the groups at all.

Guild missions are supposed to be guild endgame PvE now right? Well then why does it all consist of just finding a mob on a set path, then AFK auto-attacking hum for 5 minutes? This isn’t right at all. Greatly looking forward to having both WvW and the trinity in TES:O.

Its sounds like YOU need the trinity not the game because you are unable to recognized the skill that put into play of avoiding the dmg and being able to put out dmg with out taking dmg in return. If any thing the trinity lets dmg dealer tanks and support play with a great deal less skill because some one is covering part of your job as a player.

And that’s what was so awesome. You covered for other people. Sometime’s you KNEW you were going to die. But then, clutch heal at 5 hp! And you were saved. Or I knew I was screwed as a monk, because I had no energy and I’m watching someone cast Obsidian Flame. Ranger interrupt ftw.

In GW2 when I know I’m going to die, I do. It’s my fault sure, I missed a dodge. But there’s not that much anyone else can do to save me. They will res me sure, but I’m 90% of my own responsibility for staying alive. I feel much less of a team dynamic with dungeon PUGs in GW2 than in GW1.

FateOmega.9601:

No Walking.6349:

Kaeden.6952:

There is a trinity,

It’s called:

Damage
Control
Support

ROFL, oh ok. So that must be why I can AFK any boss in the game outside of fractal lvl 30+ This includes all the world bosses and guild bounties.

No, we need a trinity.

Afk any boss? I call BS on it. Show me a boss where you can afk auto atk on it without other people wailing on it.

There aren’t any.

Just have to remember the hyperbole is the most common animal found in the internet world.

Waraxx.4286:

and no kaeden there is no trinity, not even the support, dmg, control that you propose. why? because the definition of trinity is that one person fill one role and one role only. so if there was a trinity in this game then guardian would have 0 dmg and 0 controll and all he can do is support. witch is not the case. no matter how deep you go into the support role you will always have some dmg and some controll that matter. so everybody is contributing to the support/dmg/control areas and not only to one area.

Hm,

did it ever occur to you that perhaps the trinity is played by each character? OPEN YOUR MIND BRO! Think outside that WoWbox

Ex. I am a Guardian

I Damage the boss/foes
I control the mobs w/ greatsword 5 pull and other utility skills
I support my group with various heals and shouts

The guy betched about there being no trinity, I simply proposed that one does exist.

I did not state that each character is responsible for 1 thing. I’m not that stupid.

Each person has to evenly spread their talents into these 3 categories of the “trinity” to ensure that they maximize group efficiency.

Edited fer turrible spellin

We don’t need a trinity, we need more engaging boss mechanics, which I think ArenaNet sees and is heading in the right direction.

Katie Feathermoore.5031:

Jski.6180:

No Walking.6349:

Look at all the dungeons, it’s dodging and damaging. Look at all the world bosses, dodging and damaging. Look at all the guild bounties, just damaging.

I mean, it sounds good on paper not having a trinity, but in the real game it just makes it to where all the boss fights are just an easy DPS race. No technique, planning, or skill is required by the groups at all.

Guild missions are supposed to be guild endgame PvE now right? Well then why does it all consist of just finding a mob on a set path, then AFK auto-attacking hum for 5 minutes? This isn’t right at all. Greatly looking forward to having both WvW and the trinity in TES:O.

Its sounds like YOU need the trinity not the game because you are unable to recognized the skill that put into play of avoiding the dmg and being able to put out dmg with out taking dmg in return. If any thing the trinity lets dmg dealer tanks and support play with a great deal less skill because some one is covering part of your job as a player.

And that’s what was so awesome. You covered for other people. Sometime’s you KNEW you were going to die. But then, clutch heal at 5 hp! And you were saved. Or I knew I was screwed as a monk, because I had no energy and I’m watching someone cast Obsidian Flame. Ranger interrupt ftw.

In GW2 when I know I’m going to die, I do. It’s my fault sure, I missed a dodge. But there’s not that much anyone else can do to save me. They will res me sure, but I’m 90% of my own responsibility for staying alive. I feel much less of a team dynamic with dungeon PUGs in GW2 than in GW1.

So you cant support at all in GW2 because i been playing my guardian and healing ppl and saving them at the same time that i am doing dmg and avoiding dmg. If PUGs are so bad then how would they even be able to play with a trinity? You seem to think that they are nothing more then slamming there heads on a keyboard and truly even in a trinity game that dose not work. Simply put a PUG is a PUG is a PUG in any setting.

Katie Feathermoore.5031:

Jski.6180:

No Walking.6349:

Look at all the dungeons, it’s dodging and damaging. Look at all the world bosses, dodging and damaging. Look at all the guild bounties, just damaging.

I mean, it sounds good on paper not having a trinity, but in the real game it just makes it to where all the boss fights are just an easy DPS race. No technique, planning, or skill is required by the groups at all.

Guild missions are supposed to be guild endgame PvE now right? Well then why does it all consist of just finding a mob on a set path, then AFK auto-attacking hum for 5 minutes? This isn’t right at all. Greatly looking forward to having both WvW and the trinity in TES:O.

Its sounds like YOU need the trinity not the game because you are unable to recognized the skill that put into play of avoiding the dmg and being able to put out dmg with out taking dmg in return. If any thing the trinity lets dmg dealer tanks and support play with a great deal less skill because some one is covering part of your job as a player.

And that’s what was so awesome. You covered for other people. Sometime’s you KNEW you were going to die. But then, clutch heal at 5 hp! And you were saved. Or I knew I was screwed as a monk, because I had no energy and I’m watching someone cast Obsidian Flame. Ranger interrupt ftw.

In GW2 when I know I’m going to die, I do. It’s my fault sure, I missed a dodge. But there’s not that much anyone else can do to save me. They will res me sure, but I’m 90% of my own responsibility for staying alive. I feel much less of a team dynamic with dungeon PUGs in GW2 than in GW1.

I don’t know. We save each other all the time in Guild Wars 2. Party member goes down. I’m too far to rez, but I cast an AOE condition remval down on their body so when someone does rez them, they get several seconds of reprieve from the burning a boss puts on them.

Sometimes a number of people go down and you have to kite the boss while rezzing. It can be challenging. Some times you come back from the dead, just at the edge of a party wipe and you finish the boss.

I get much the same feeling from playing PVe Guild wars 2 as PvE Guild Wars 1. Though admittedly I almost never pug.

I question the mentality of everyone who doesnt at least think of what the game would be like if it was designed with more defined roles.

I hope you don’t slip off your saddle, because the fall off that 5000-foot high horse would be fatal.

Seriously, man, cut the elitist “anyone who disagrees that this game should be just like GW1 or another trinity game is a moron” crap.

Open your mind to the possibility that not having strictly defined roles makes each and every character self-sufficient. And that this is a GOOD thing.

The only thing GW2 needs relating to Trinity is the leather outfit she wore in The Matrix.

The classic trinity will make things way too easy.

Nope. This game’s PvE needs better encounter mechanics, and then let the players sort it out from there. The basic framework is very solid, but there just aren’t enough places in the game where it can shine.

World bosses are pointless. The only thing that scales is Health. More people needs to be harder, not longer… Why do the guild bounties have no strategy needed?

No Walking.6349:

World bosses are pointless. The only thing that scales is Health. More people needs to be harder, not longer… Why do the guild bounties have no strategy needed?

This is a problem with enemy mechanics, not combat mechanics.

shyrith.3462:

By the sounds of it, there wont be a Trinity in TES:O either. Actually, so far TES:O sounds a lot like GW2, just with TES lore.

I assume you play Warrior or Guardian. Try playing an ele or mesmer. You definitely can’t afk on auto attack, then.

There’s going to be a Trinity in TESO. In fact, there are tanking skills lines with “Taunts” that hold aggro. Also, it was confirmed that you can be effective as a full healer (little offense).

What they have said though is that it is possible to do content without the Trinity, using different tactics.

So ESO will have both Trinity, and non-Trinity systems. It will be up to the meta to decide what is the most effective.

Of ALL the things GW2 needs to work on, of every single thing that they need to do…

Adding a trinity is NOT one of them. You trivialize combat, but would rather it be…

“pop DPS skills and auto attack”
or
“Press 5 when ally’s HP gets to 50%”
or
“Spam boons when they get off cooldown.”

Hey look, I can exaggerate and over-simplify combat too!

They do not need to add a trinity. If anything, they need to properly work on making engaging encounters. Not submit to the same cookie cutter crap that plagues other MMOs. I’ve played every part of the trinity, and I can safely say it’s boring. Utterly boring. The entire trinity is a dated concept. The funny part is, I play a full healing/full support guardian.

The difference is….it’s optional. I do not need to play that build to find a group. I do not need to sit in LA going “LFG healer” to get a group. The trinity would force people to pander to one of those 3 niche roles, or risk not getting a group. You are literally asking the developers to force people to play one of those roles. You’re asking the devs to force all guardians to play Healing, all thieves to play DPS, and all eles to play support. Where does that leave existing players? Are they going to wake up one day and find their build only contains healing skills? Are all thieves going to be glass cannons, forced to have heavy support to survive? (Lol…you want to live in a world where thieves play even more glass-cannony than they do now? )

So here we are. You’re asking the developers to force every existing player into niche roles in order to benefit YOUR personal preference. Mmm…no, I don’t think that’s going to happen. If I gathered anything from the replies here, it’s that apparently you don’t speak for everybody. Apparently a lot of people do not think the trinity is a good thing for this game. Are you threatening to leave the game if it doesn’t have a trinity?

How can you sit there and suggest that Anet limits our playstyles even more? From GW1 to GW2 had our builds extremely limited as it is, and you want them to limit it even more? You’re joking, right? You can’t really expect people to be forced into fulfilling these funneled roles.

Seems to me like you’re looking for the option to play those roles if you desire, without forcing other players into that trinity concept that they don’t like. Sounds to me like we already have that option as it is. Full healing guardians are there, full tanks are there, full DPS is there. If you want the trinity so kitten badly, form a guild who resigns themselves to only playing niche roles, and disallow any member from deviating from the “standard” for a build that you set.

This game needs 99 things and a kitten trinity isn’t one.

~Signed~
Someone who plays a full healer build, enjoys it thoroughly, and loves the ability to change builds without being punished for not fulfilling one of the key trinity roles.

There is a wide selection of games available that limit your playstyle if that’s what you’re looking for. GW2 doesn’t need the trinity, it was designed not to need it and did a pretty good job at it. I’m sorry you don’t agree.

Terok.7315:

There is a wide selection of games available that limit your playstyle if that’s what you’re looking for.

^This.

Stop asking for this, it will never happen.
If you want a game with such obsolete and responsibility-dumping-on-2-players system go play another game.
Seriously it’s like asking to allow baseball bats in soccer.

As for the fact only frac30+ is hard it’s because most of this community shreds in tears when something is remotely difficult, so Anet made everything easy except for that.

Trinity is for lazy people who can’t shed their traditional way of thinking. Also, Trinity tends to be more boring than the current GW2 combat system.

In Fractals 30+ for example. Without proper team communication and strategy, you go down fast! With trinity, the dps basically dps, the healer basically heals. What strategy is there in trinity? None. All you do as a dps is mash that dps key and all you do as a healer is mash that heal key. Boring.

In GW2, if you fail to predict and evade a boss attack, you’re as good as down especially when going against Lupi. Demanding for Trinity is indirectly saying “I want to be able to stand here and mash the same key while I have someone healing me behind.”.

What GW2 needs is more enemies like Lupi. Where they change their attack patterns based on HP % or difficulty level. Not just +hp +dmg as difficulty goes higher. That’s artificial.

First of all trinity already exist and it’s called dps,CC,support.
Second you can NOT do high level fractals like 30+ only with pure glass canon group.You must have from everything,because if you don’t you wipe miserably.Just compare the CoF speed runs with FotM lvl30+ and you will find the difference.Berserker groups are not everything.

The problem is that FotM is the only place which requires a trinity,balanced group because mobs hit hard and you can’t let yourself to die easily.The rest of the game is just either mindles zerg or you are putting just a little effort.

Afk kill all world bosses i dont think so. Go afk during jormag and you will die thats a fact. Go afk during shatty and you will die. If your anywhere close to be able to hit the dragons you can sure as heck bet they will be able to hit you aswell.

No thanks. It’s easier and more fun to have no trinity at all…

Also, if we did have trinity, it will take a really long time just to find party members(Especially when you’re looking for thanks and healers)

lothefallen.7081:

McDili.1549:

No Walking.6349:

Kaeden.6952:

There is a trinity,

It’s called:

Damage
Control
Support

ROFL, oh ok. So that must be why I can AFK any boss in the game outside of fractal lvl 30+ This includes all the world bosses and guild bounties.

No, we need a trinity.

This is such a massive exaggeration. You can’t AFK Kholer. You can’t AFK Subject Alpha. You can’t afk Lupicus. You can’t AFK a lot of bosses in this game, you can have the best bunker gear out there and Kholer will still kill you if you AFK him.

The world bosses you can AFK, sure. I’ll give you that.

I’m sure you’re in good groups, so if your entire group is dodging at the right times then that’s awesome, they’re using their skills and reaction time to complete the bosses.

In this game, if you die it’s because you made a mistake. If you are skillful, you will dodge correctly, use utilities correctly, and in some cases even distinguish between when its okay to range or melee an enemy.

These are all skills.

Please explain to me how in a Trinity, the healer is using personal skill to keep a tank alive.

Please explain to me how in a Trinity, the Tank is using personal skill to sit on the boss and use a taunt type of ability.

In this game, you are required to dodge in many engagements to survive and maintain good group efficiency. We also have utilities such as reflections, every class has at least one utility that allows them to mitigate at least one single attack no matter how powerful, something that you would use sparingly.

Trinity ruins the skill cap and also makes finding a group much harder for certain people too.

Please understand what you’re asking for before you ask for it.

All you do is wait 2 seconds and dodge otherwise, wow that’s so deep.

GW1 example. I have deep wound on the warrior, i have spoil victor, im slowed, my monk is being harassed by a mesmer, the ranger is being blinded by a bsurge ele…what do i do as a Ritualist? I need energy, im about to be bulls-striked…the monk receives my spirit light, gets off a WoH, our warrior d-chops the other monk’s Word of healing and we win the match.

Wheres that type of depth in GW2?

If you can put it into WoW terms, then I will understand your scenario. I didn’t play GW1.

You also provided a PvP scenario vs the PvE one I was challenging.

In GW2 PvP conditions are far more prominent as well synergy within your enemy team. Dodging in PvP is not as forgiving as it is in PvE, since good players will pay close attention to things like that. There are even tactics and openers out there that involve forcing a player to dodge in order to accomplish a burst or move the player.

In PvP, dying being your fault is even more prominent as well. Since skill is not only relevant within yourself and your team but also the enemy whereas in PvE the enemy has specific and predictable attacks. You have to use your heals at the right time, condition removal is way more important, poison, weakness, chill and the like are much more lethal in a PvP environment.

In that same respect the boons Vigor and Protection are also more valuable in PvP. However, unlike most PvE content, there are some classes that can steal or convert boons. What could be a strength could also turn into a weakness, yet another element of strategy.

I feel like your response to me was a rebuttal to itself at the same time, because the PvP in this game is certainly more skillful than the Healer/Tank/DPS trinity. The Support, Control, DPS Trinity in this game makes for a higher skill cap. Unfortunately, the PvP is limited to capture points which is saddening.

The traditional trinity is boring and simple, the versatility of the system we have now makes things more interesting.

I also want to challenge what you said in another post about the Trinity being “Mesmer, Warrior, Guardian”

That’s ANet’s fault, and the game is still a fairly new MMO, in time the imbalances will be ironed out as we have seen happen to other MMO’s in the past. The existing imbalances are completely irrelevant to the argument about the trinity though, so it shouldn’t be a part of this thread.

On a final note, for future reference when you respond to my debate, be sure to respond to the scenario(s) provided. If you provide new scenarios, then it isn’t really a good response to my challenge, but rather a new branch to the topic. We cannot debate against multiple scenario’s at once or we will not resolve them.

How much would adding a trinity change the game though? We can go pure support/tank/DPS regardless, and imposing it would do more harm than good.

No Walking.6349:

Kaeden.6952:

There is a trinity,

It’s called:

Damage
Control
Support

ROFL, oh ok. So that must be why I can AFK any boss in the game outside of fractal lvl 30+ This includes all the world bosses and guild bounties.

No, we need a trinity.

Your Hyperbole is showing.

As Rasolov would say “no no no”. Trinity does not promote skill at all but lazy gameplay for 3 out of 5 of the party members.

Some of the logical errors made in this thread:

1. equating the deep GW1 pvp with the so-called shallow GW2 pve, while in reality GW1 pve was about c-space sabway, 55 and SF SC. GW1 pve was extremely shallow, GW2’s is definitively an improvement. Apples and oranges.

2. implying that healers lead to more depth, which is a non sequitur. Healers reduce player skill for everyone except healers. Needed for depth are more utility and elite skills and an overall direct damage nerf.

3. equating COF1 with entire PVE, which is a strawman. Doing a proper Arah, HotW2, SE guildrun is where the PVE really shines. An overall buff to combos is much needed though.

4. equating bad pug experiences and zerg mentality with skilled guildplay. Tu quoque is the proper term. Guild play is vastly different from pugs. In guilds engineers and rangers definitively have a spot. On the other hand, good pugs exist too.

There’s more but these are the most blatant.

Healers have nothing to do with deep combat or teamwork. Healers reduce combat depth to dps races and gearchecks. Healers reduce teamwork by covering up your puppy. Same goes for tanks.

No trinity in an MMO was a great sales pitch for ArenaNet, sadly after playing the game it quickly becomes apparent as to why MMOs use a trinity based system. Poor dungeons, same encounters, little to no class difference. People were saying this at release, they’re still saying it now, I’m just waiting for ESO or some other MMO to commit to. This is ok for some short periods of gameplay here and there but thats about it.

You can go either way guys will complain one side and be on the other side next post. You really can’t satisfy everyone so all companies can do is this. Stick to what they advertise any change will make the ride or die people bail. Look at the lost shores update. Just a hint of gear upgrade made people cry. Can you imagine actually putting trinity in this game now? The QQ would turn super saiyan and blow the planet up.

Silentstorm.7531:

You can go either way guys will complain one side and be on the other side next post. You really can’t satisfy everyone so all companies can do is this. Stick to what they advertise any change will make the ride or die people bail. Look at the lost shores update. Just a hint of gear upgrade made people cry. Can you imagine actually putting trinity in this game now? The QQ would turn super saiyan and blow the planet up.

I absolutely agree with you. As much as I’d personally like the game to have a trinity system in place, there isn’t a snow balls chance in hell of it happening for the reason you’ve stated. Thats why I’ll just wait for yet another MMO … someone will get it right sooner or later.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

ATMAvatar.5749:

A trinity system doesn’t make for much more exciting combat. It just creates a privileged minority out of tanks and healers. So now, instead of a dungeon group just falling apart because of rampant stupidity and failure, it can also fall apart because of primadonnas rage-quitting when you don’t bend to their will.

Yes, a balanced trinity system does all that crap you mentioned, which is why having friends and a good guild to play with made the experience much more enjoyable.

What you are wrong about is that having a balanced trinity does actually make combat more interesting, complex, strategic and rewarding. We can go on about this for hours, but it is pretty much a fact that cooperative play and meaningful encounters were much better in GW1 due to a balanced trinity than in GW2.

I still say Guild Wars 1 didn’t have a trinity. WoW has a trinity.

The reason Guild Wars 1 didn’t have a trinity is because there’s no aggro mechanic. There’s no taunt mechanic. Sure Guild Wars 1 players called certain people tanks, but tanks weren’t strictly necessary, at least in PVe.

I never used a tank in PVe. Not once. That means that in Guild Wars 1, the trinity didn’t exist. Not as it does in other games.

There is an aggro mechanic and, in effect, a passive taunt in GW2. I was watching a video of a very good dungeon group with 1 guardian, 3 berserker warriors, and a mesmer—the standard group. Through GW2’s aggro mechanic the guardian with his high toughness was boss bait and it was his job to run in, grab aggro, and position the mob for the warrior’s to destroy. There was no keybound taunt available, but the passive one worked just as well.

What you see in organized groups are combat roles forming, regardless of GW2’s lack of a formal trinity. I don’t argue in favor of the traditional trinity, but I do think the lack of meaningful roles in terms of how GW2 was conceived is a problem. Humans organize around roles whether it’s a scavenger hunt or brain surgery. Everyone just going for it doesn’t make for satisfying group activity. That’s why you see a lot of posts on the subject. What we have currently (formally) is not the way humans function best in groups. People are establishing roles, which is natural, but it really needs to be better supported by the game design. Again, I’m not arguing for the trinity, just for a more natural (human) and satisfying conception of combat.