Guild Wars 2

Why must you label people? Geebus.

I don’t have a problem with the nature of the relationship. The dialogue was what annoyed me. He repeated “he’s my love, afterall” 3 or 4 times and I’m just like… I get it, calm down, I’ll save him for you.

I think it felt odd because they were trying to stay away from “Help my boyfriend. My boyfriend is in trouble. Please save my boyfriend.” Sylvari tend to use more… flowery… descriptors for their relationships than the gendered pronouns we are used to.

As it’s one of the very first missions, we have no chance to get used to Sylvari speaking patterns so it feels even more incongruous.

Haven.6531:

I don’t have a problem with the nature of the relationship. The dialogue was what annoyed me. He repeated “he’s my love, afterall” 3 or 4 times and I’m just like… I get it, calm down, I’ll save him for you.

It’s really no different than Tiachren never shutting up about his girlfriend.

Sexual orientation means jack for a race that can’t reproduce. Biologically speaking, it wouldn’t be any more or less productive for them to hump boulders.

And frankly, there has never, ever, been an instance in any society where homosexuality was more visible or “forced” than heterosexuality so please don’t claim it’s “too much”.

Sorry you had a hard time hiding from the scary gays in your fantasy world.

Romantic relationships (and by extension sexual relationships) are more about inspiration then physical form. If you cannot comprehend this, just think of the sylvari permanently as bisexual.

Plenty of straight sylvari and I liked the homosexual story line myself, found it fun. I am straight but I believe in ’live and let live".

I have encountered straight sylvari couples though, there is one sylvari in one story line who is mourning her husband etc.

After playing through more stories, I honestly think that its more of an issue with romance, not with gay romance.

They all suck.

Its terrible writing.

All it consists of is “my lover” and “my sweet!”

That’s all we get to tell us that they are in love. So, people are probably thinking that a pretty terribly executed gay romance plot is because its gay. The truth is, its terrible because its a romance plot. Arenanet can’t write them.

Shield of the moon was so… stupid for this for example.

I disagree. Compared to other games’ romance plots, the fact that ANet’s were subtle and downplayed was a breath of fresh air.

Some folks are for more sensitive to the issue of homosexuality in games then others.

I am not gay, but as I find inspiration for those who are, I look to the articles that were widespread over the homosexuality encountered in Mass Effect. Despite all the details about the atrocities committed over the scope of the entire story, people will still get upset over the completely optional gay spooning scene. That scene was also not a defining moment in the story either, nor was it mandatory to play in it. People were even sleeping with aliens long before they had the option to have a completely homosexual option either.

As a tangent; If Freddie Mercury came back to life, saved the entire universe from total destruction but somehow managed to spoon a few men along the way.. I say rock on Freddie!

All the romance in this game so far are just that, MMO video game romance. People get offended over the weirdest things.

No, they were subtle. Really, if you want forced look at some Bioware games…

Uh, those were completely optional scenes. No Bioware game has ever forced anyone to deal with homosexual scenes without giving the player chances to get out.

Most of that rage came from people who were curious about that part of the storyline and either played it through (or youtubed it) and then were horrified by the results. These people never accepted responsibility for their own part in it.

Ramethzero.3785:

Uh, those were completely optional scenes. No Bioware game has ever forced anyone to deal with homosexual scenes without giving the player chances to get out.

I think “forced” in the context Varyag is using it means “tacky”. You’re right, no one was forced to play through those romances, but they were still tacky and poorly handled.

I could be wrong, though, but that’s how I read it!

Don’t Sylvari’s use bees to polinate ? =/

^ ^

That could be a viable answer. lol. That being said, I don’t think I could look to a game company to find quality romance entertainment.

Homosexuality or not, who cares?

If anything it’s pretty cool to see game devs. take these approaches to try and make homosexual relationships appear normal, because, ya’know, they are.

Baby steps, I guess.

I’ve seen a lot of posts saying that there’s no such thing as a kitten ((/sigh @ filter... tried to abreviate ’homosexual’ by using only the 1st 4 letters)) or heterosexual sylvari because no sylvari has reproductive organs and is therefore neither male nor female; and because sylvari are not attracted to one gender over another...

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I really don’t think that’s true. Not being able to reproduce doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t experience sexual attraction; and not being strictly speaking male or female doesn’t necessarily mean that they can’t find one sex more appealing than the other, or one sex not attractive at all.

Head to the leatherworking station in LA and wait there for a few minutes; eventually you’ll see two norn; a built male, and a scantily clad female. When they walk passed the station, two nearby sylvari females (under the bridge just north of the station) say the following:

Sylvari 1: "Did you see what she was wearing?!" (Tone = disapproval / prudish)
Sylvari 2: "No... I was too busy looking at him..." (Tone = lustful)

From that exchange, we can see that Sylvari 2 is is clearly not interested at all in the female, but IS attracted to the male, despite not having any emotional attachment to him... I suppose you could argue that she thought the male ’looked inspiring’ or something, and the implied attraction has nothing to do with the fact that he’s a male; and that her disinterest in the female was caused by like non-sexual factors, but if you listen to the tone of Sylvari 2, it’s pretty clearly sexually motivated, to me at least.

So, in short, despite not possessing reproductive organs, there’s nothing stopping a sylvari from identifying itself as male or female (or something in between, or none of the above), and there’s no reason to think they couldn’t have a sexual preference for a specific sex/gender.

...so, what’s with all the "sylvari are pansexual" comments? *Some* sylvari are pansexual; others are heterosexual; others homosexual; etc.

The Green Knight storyline did not make a same-sex couple feel any more forced on me than the myriad of times male-female NPC couples are encountered in the storylines present in GW2.

What did happen to me though when playing this storyline for the first time was I got angry that this so called “knight” was picking on such a sweet couple. Channeling that anger made it all the more satisfying for me later on in the story when I had the chance to finally pound the Green Knight into guacamole with my Guardian’s Hammer!

Keep up the good work ANet.

You guys are really going far with a thread that was nothing but “Ew, they put gay people in my game and I was forced to be aware of their gayness!”

Thats because its an unenlightented response to a way of life around the world that has been around since people. You’d think after a couple of thousand years, people would be over this by now.

Ignorance and prejudice are a scary thing if you let it win.

Agreed. this thread really shouldn’t exist. The straight couples in this game are more prominent than the gay. TC would probably think any gay couple in any game is “forced”. Whatever the heck that means lol…
“Theres gay couples in game? why are they forcing this in my face” haha

I would be willing to bet that sylvari are more bisexual than homosexual.

On the plus side, this thread may have had a sour beginning, but it has turned into something you sadly don’t often find on “big” forums, even on less “heated” topics: most of the replies are both polite and supportive, without the mods having to swing the banhammer. Quite the breath of fresh air. Thumbs up, people.

I personally feel that Sylvari should be genderless, because they are not born but awaken. I am pretty sure they don’t have reproductive organs, nor do they have pollen because only the Pale-Tree gives life. For this reason I don’t think they are homosexuals, they are not human nor do they need a love interest, I simply feel they want a friend. We should keep in mind that our desire to “mate” is due partly because of our reproductive organs, with out that is simply companionship and friendship.

They lack the ability to reproduce but not the ability to have sex. It’s been confirmed, as far as I’m aware, that they do indeed have bits that work.

You want forced? Try the asura storyline, I believe it was synergetics. Every single sentence the male asura said had to be about how much he loved the female asura. By the end I was so sick of it I turned him into a golem and he still did it! ;ASLJDAJSFB! *Flails!*

Szin.1250:

Gay man IRL here. I can think of exactly three same-sex relationships I’ve come across — the “beloved” couple in the Sylvari story that the OP mentions, Caithe and Faolain (which is understated and could even be missed if you weren’t paying attention), and a random male NPC in the Grove who talks about how he started to notice restlessness on the part of an unknown male person (who presumably was his lover, but could as easily have been a best friend or even a pet).

Three. And only the first is unequivocal and obvious.

My complaint is that there aren’t nearly enough same-sex relationships to make the world believable.

As others have pointed out, I think your problem (and it is your problem, not the game’s) is that you notice the same-sex relationships because you do, in fact, have a problem with homosexual people, despite your insistence to the contrary.

The Twilight Arbour explorable has a two tragic tales of love and betrayal! One involves a “lesbian” (I put it in quotes because we are talking about Sylvari here) couple and the other involves a “straight” (again, sylvari) couple. Ah Twilight Arborr, such a soap opera in both story mode and explorable mode!

Ba air.1372:

They lack the ability to reproduce but not the ability to have sex. It’s been confirmed, as far as I’m aware, that they do indeed have bits that work.

Can’t remember where this is, it’s in human area, but there’s a sylvari working at a winery, and he’s drunk. Talking to him with my sylvari he says something about me being a female sylvari, and when I correct him, he says" …I can’t tell my pistils from my stamens". Which are the reproductive parts of plants. So yeah, sylvari have bits.

Oroborous.2694:

Ba air.1372:

They lack the ability to reproduce but not the ability to have sex. It’s been confirmed, as far as I’m aware, that they do indeed have bits that work.

Can’t remember where this is, it’s in human area, but there’s a sylvari working at a winery, and he’s drunk. Talking to him with my sylvari he says something about me being a female sylvari, and when I correct him, he says" …I can’t tell my pistils from my stamens". Which are the reproductive parts of plants. So yeah, sylvari have bits.

Following links from the wiki on this topic leads to an interview answer:

CDA: One of the lore questions that bother players the most is – do Sylvari have sex? Are they able to procreate on their own, or just keep sprouting out of the Pale Tree?

Martin Kerstein: I’m not exactly a lore person, but as far as I understand – yes, Sylvari can have sex and they will have sex with whoever they like, they are fully capable of doing so. But they don’t do it to create to new Sylvaris. They actually grow from the tree.

So the summary on the wiki is most accurate, stating “while sylvari can and do have sex, it is not for reproduction as sylvari can only be born from the Pale Tree.”

Man, I would not want to be a human having sex with a Sylvari. There’s comments made about how Sylvari think humans are squishy in the story mode…if they’re hard like wood this implies a rather painful experience…

BabelFish.7234:

Man, I would not want to be a human having sex with a Sylvari. There’s comments made about how Sylvari think humans are squishy in the story mode…if they’re hard like wood this implies a rather painful experience…

Just take a few minutes to think of how many euphamisms are related to plants, and you’ll realize just how punny sylvari could get.

Do sylvari literally get wood?

And do they literally sow their seed?

You don’t need to ‘look’ intelligent when you are intelligent. ;-)

In all seriousness, there’s nothing that says sexuality has to have anything to do with reproductive options. If a race is sexually dimorphic, then the male who pursues the male is a homosexual, the female who pursues the male a hetereosexual, the male who pursues neither an asexual, and so on.

A more interesting question is: why are Sylvari sexually dimorphic? Plants, of course, have both male and female parts. Is there any chance the Sylvari are similarly hermaphroditic? What’s nature’s plan for a race that don’t reproduce through any kind of sex but are still outfitted with sexual organs?

Focksbot.6798:

In all seriousness, there’s nothing that says sexuality has to have anything to do with reproductive options. If a race is sexually dimorphic, then the male who pursues the male is a homosexual, the female who pursues the male a hetereosexual, the male who pursues neither an asexual, and so on.

A more interesting question is: why are Sylvari sexually dimorphic? Plants, of course, have both male and female parts. Is there any chance the Sylvari are similarly hermaphroditic? What’s nature’s plan for a race that don’t reproduce through any kind of sex but are still outfitted with sexual organs?

Imitation of humans.  Pretty simple.  There’s no real hint that they’re hermaphrodites but they can have sex so likely have sexual organs that match their appearance.  It’s not “nature’s plan” it’s the Pale Tree, which is, as a tree, a natural thing, but it doesn’t appear to be an evolutionary thing.  

Also, while you can debate if two male sylvari in love are in a homosexual relationship or not based on how they view gender, they are still going to be percieved to be in a homosexual relationship; as you can see from this thread. 

Focksbot.6798:

In all seriousness, there’s nothing that says sexuality has to have anything to do with reproductive options. If a race is sexually dimorphic, then the male who pursues the male is a homosexual, the female who pursues the male a hetereosexual, the male who pursues neither an asexual, and so on.

A more interesting question is: why are Sylvari sexually dimorphic? Plants, of course, have both male and female parts. Is there any chance the Sylvari are similarly hermaphroditic? What’s nature’s plan for a race that don’t reproduce through any kind of sex but are still outfitted with sexual organs?

I don’t believe they’re hermaphroditic. There’s no reason for them to be; they can’t reproduce anyway. The suggestion seems to be that they have organs matching their assigned gender. The differing genders only exist because they’re based on humans.

Thing is, if you chose the “Where life goes” philosophy for your Sylvari, you meet a very special Sylvari that throws a big ol’ wrench into the whole “Sylvari look like humans because the Pale Tree was planted atop human graves”. The meeting with this special Sylvari suggests that all Sylvari would have a humanoid appearance anyway.

Zaxares.5419:

Thing is, if you chose the “Where life goes” philosophy for your Sylvari, you meet a very special Sylvari that throws a big ol’ wrench into the whole “Sylvari look like humans because the Pale Tree was planted atop human graves”. The meeting with this special Sylvari suggests that all Sylvari would have a humanoid appearance anyway.

It’s not completely disproved from him however. It’s possible that the trees are in some way connected. His tree could have learned from the Pale Tree. We can’t know though but we do know that the Sylvari ARE supposed to be imitations of humans… from a design stand point. We don’t know that his tree isn’t on a human grave either to be honest.

The only way the homosexual characters/couples in this game could feel like they were ‘forced’ or too ‘overt’ is if you were specifically focusing on them or it made you uncomfortable. I’m guessing it’s probably the latter case for most people complaining about it.

As a gay individual I have to say it made me really, really happy to see this inclusion, and honestly I’d love to see more of it among the other races as well.

Haven.6531:

I don’t have a problem with the nature of the relationship. The dialogue was what annoyed me. He repeated “he’s my love, afterall” 3 or 4 times and I’m just like… I get it, calm down, I’ll save him for you.

Actually, he said it only once

Ramethzero.3785:

Focksbot.6798:

You don’t need to ‘look’ intelligent when you are intelligent. ;-)

Right. I’ll let you know when you get there.

Ta, but think I’ll stick with my own instincts on this one.

To be honest though, like many said—I think it is just bad writing. Sylvari in particular are littered with horrible dialogues, etc. It’s not that their backstory is not well crafted. It’s just that writing is clearly not ANet’s strong suite (or the focus of the game). It is rather unfortunate, but hey—at least the gameplay is good, yeah?

Focksbot.6798:

A more interesting question is: why are Sylvari sexually dimorphic? Plants, of course, have both male and female parts. Is there any chance the Sylvari are similarly hermaphroditic? What’s nature’s plan for a race that don’t reproduce through any kind of sex but are still outfitted with sexual organs?

The seed of the Pale Tree was planted on a mass grave of humans. There’s a lot about the sylvari’s origins that raise questions, and it’s never outright stated that being planted on a mass grave is the reason the sylvari look human, but most people think it’s the reason.

The Sylvari stories of homosexual love in turmoil are really no different than the heterosexual stories of love in turmoil in GW2. The style is consistently hyperdramatic. As for the Sylvari, nothing felt forced about it to me. I love the naive innocence of the race and their inhibitions in expressing themselves. Perhaps that quality is what makes their expressions seem more forward to the OP.

I went through an entire line of Personal Story stuff trying to help a male Sylvari save his girlfriend from the Nightmare Court. 36 levels later I encountered the first pair of lesbian Sylvari that I can recall , and that was merely hinted at by a single line of dialog after an event finished.

Skipping any arguments about Sylvari biology, this would be no different if these characters were human. The reality is that people are not all heterosexual, and it doesn’t make either stories or society better for writers to pretend otherwise..

Reading this thread, I think a lot of people are flying off the handle at what the OP is saying. I get (and honestly, agree) with the crux of his point.

Homitu.7216:

The Sylvari stories of homosexual love in turmoil are really no different than the heterosexual stories of love in turmoil in GW2.

This pretty much nails my feelings about it.
It’s not so much “oh look, a same-sex couple.” it’s the whole “HI WE ARE A COUPLE AND WE LOVE EACH OTHER AND IT’S AWESOME AND WE ARE GOING TO TELL YOU HOW AWESOME IT IS EVERYTIME WE TALK TO YOU BECAUSE IT’S AWESOME.”
I hate this sort of thing, and just because I’m a mistrustful loner with nobody to love and be loved by in real life. It doesn’t matter who the people are or their sexual orientation, it’s an example of the dreaded Romantic Plot Tumour. Whether the couple is straight or not having to sit there and endure someone blithering away about only makes me think “Shut up and get to the point.”
The quest line where you have to save someone’s girlfriend from the nightmare court gets away (to an extent) with this imo because their lover is kidnapped and they’re worrying themselves sick about it. But any couple is constantly going “WE ARE A COUPLE AND IT IS AWESOME AND WE LOVE EACH OTHER AND HAVE I TOLD YOU HOW LOVELY THIS IS” I’m finding myself hoping one of them shortly dies of Plot Device. Hopefully both so I don’t have to put up with the other’s crying because dear god they’ll ruddy well do subject you to their blubbering.

Logain and Queen Jenna’s romantic subplot’s been touched upon; that’s in an uneasy position in regards to this topic, because it plays an important part in the plot. The simple fact is, because of Logain’s love for the queen, he put her above his friends and Snaff paid the price for it. The others (especially Rytlock) are unhappy to say the least about this, and it’s a constant bone of contention. Not so much the love aspect but the “you put her over us” part and I’m honestly glad of that. Logain, even in the human storylines, doesn’t make that much noise about loving the queen. Protecting her? Yes, though he’s effectively her champion so that’s pretty expected regardless of his personal feelings.
Caithe, imo, gets away with it too because by the time her personal sub-plot is picked up there’s no obvious way the group’s getting back together and Caithe, previously established as a loner and borderline outcast (even if self inflicted) amongst the gregarious Sylvari, is giving up on the few people she’s called friends and probably the closest thing she’s had to a family ever reconciling their differences. So she’s going to indulge her nihilism and pessimism with someone she knows loves her (albiet in a slightly twisted manner). It doesn’t strike me as much different from Eir’s storyline in Honour of the Waves.

So, to recap; I don’t have much problem with the romance sub-plots in Destiny’s Edge because as I’ve hopefully managed to show the ‘romance’ part is pretty much secondary.
The ‘secondary quests’ to use the old GW1 term can be… more… obnoxious about it though. And regardless of race and gender, those are the ones that get my knickers in a twist.

I am sick of having skimpy outfits, boobs, butts and bad anti female jokes and “hot chick” forced on me all time.. wish every kitten tv show, game, movie, song would get rid of it(yea right)

Loki.4871:

Focksbot.6798:

A more interesting question is: why are Sylvari sexually dimorphic? Plants, of course, have both male and female parts. Is there any chance the Sylvari are similarly hermaphroditic? What’s nature’s plan for a race that don’t reproduce through any kind of sex but are still outfitted with sexual organs?

The seed of the Pale Tree was planted on a mass grave of humans. There’s a lot about the sylvari’s origins that raise questions, and it’s never outright stated that being planted on a mass grave is the reason the sylvari look human, but most people think it’s the reason.

Except that we now know that there are Sylvari who come from OTHER Pale Trees and still look distinctly Sylvari. Considering their pale trees were not planted on human graves (or at least it’s unlikely to be so) I don’t think thats the reason for Sylvari looking the way they do at all :P