Guild Wars 2

What Jen said. It’s not “forced” or “blatant” in any way, nor “in your face” or “flaunted” or whatever other negative terms that some people like to use when they see something that they’re not used to, or actively despise. Plus, we notice and remember the unusual, and many prefer the familiar.

And, yes, there are many very obvious hetero couples, among the sylvari and elsewhere.

Yes, I think it feels forced.
I agree with Wolfgang Hype completely. I would have much preferred a gender-neutral approach for the Sylvari.

I much prefer the current approach, and appreciate ANet’s willingness to go there. <3

Plants are both male and female at the same time. The sylvari you are playing? Its both male and female. AT THE SAME TIME. Its a hermaphrodite. They also share a gestalt consciousness and memories of those before them when they are in the dream. Their pansexuality really doesnt surprise me. In fact it would be weird if it wasnt that way.

To me it does feel that the way Anet is adding homosexual relationships is a little awkward. It might just be the way the sylvari are written that is throwing me off though, they are a rather odd race to begin with.

Let’s not get this thread locked down with a religious debate. That’s not needed nor the point of the thread. Homosexual relationships in this game aren’t any more forced or cringe worthy than the straight ones, especially with the Sylvari.

MY BELOVED~

It’s not forced, it’s natural

lost me at perpetuating gay stereotypes re: faren.

[b]Plants are both male and female at the same time. [b]

Obviously not a botanist. Some plants self-seed, yes; but other plants have genders. Anybody who grows apples knows this.

Plants also have this incredible ability to clone themselves. Take a cutting and you just cloned a plant.

It does feel rather forced.

I mean, I realize romanticism in general is one of the sylvari hallmarks. Either sexuality comes as naturally to them as its counterparts. But I can’t think of a gay character in the game that isn’t sylvari. No, Faren does not count.

Furienify.5738:

It does feel rather forced.

I mean, I realize romanticism in general is one of the sylvari hallmarks. Either sexuality comes as naturally to them as its counterparts. But I can’t think of a gay character in the game that isn’t sylvari. No, Faren does not count.

None of the Sylvari are gay either. Since they don’t have normal genders, gender roles, or ideas of sexuality.

Saur about life, is you.

Some clarifications…

Sex is physical. Sylvari do have sexual organs as per the original lore introductions. They cannot have children, but they do have functional organs, and they are distinctly ‘male’ and ‘female’.

Gender is mental, how you perceive yourself. Sylvari in game seem to be a bit more fluid than other races, but they still appear have distinct ‘masculine’ and ‘feminine’ identities and roles. Variances in behaviour and dress are absolutely there, possibly to mimic the humans they are based partly off of.

Sexuality is attraction. Sylvari are open in this regard, not caring (much, individual preference probably plays a part) about either physical sex or gender identity in who they are attracted to. This particular aspect is also confirmed in the Sylvari lore articles. Unlike other races, or a large part of real life, there is no dislike, non-acceptance, or outright hatred of people who are “wired” to prefer same gender/sex relationships as opposed to opposite.

Other races don’t much care about homosexuals either.

Furienify.5738:

But I can’t think of a gay character in the game that isn’t sylvari. No, Faren does not count.

That’s really a failing of the developers. They haven’t ruled it out from the other species, but they haven’t given any examples either. It’d be nice to see in the other species too.

I agree it would be nice to see it in other races but then the flaming would be even harder, spawning much more useless threads like these.

SirMoogie.9263:

Furienify.5738:

But I can’t think of a gay character in the game that isn’t sylvari. No, Faren does not count.

That’s really a failing of the developers. They haven’t ruled it out from the other species, but they haven’t given any examples either. It’d be nice to see in the other species too.

Why is Faren gay? I didn’t get that implication. Maybe the way he talks? I think he’s cute and I play it with a female character. People are just weird

SirMoogie.9263
Furienify.5738:
But I can’t think of a gay character in the game that isn’t sylvari. No, Faren does not count.
That’s really a failing of the developers. They haven’t ruled it out from the other species, but they haven’t given any examples either. It’d be nice to see in the other species too.

Shhh. Do you want them to add one more gay couple and see someone posting about “The avalanche of gay this game is smashing into my face and trying to turn me!”

My Norn character is gay. xP

At first, I was entirely on board with the OP. I thought it felt a bit forced and right in your face when I was playing the Green Knight story. Not that it was a bad thing it was there, but ‘OMG HI’ kind of way.

However after reading through the thread and thinking about it to myself? Nope. Not forced. If it was a hetero couple I’d not care.

tl;dr: OP, you’re kinda wrong, and maybe should look at it objectively. That’s all.

all i gotta say is, i kinda found homosexuality to be predictable in their lore, in the green knight story line when the guy came over and says “my beloved is being attacked” i said whats the bet his beloved is a male.. which he was.

^ And you get the same thing in shield of the moon storyline, but this time it’s a woman. So why are we even pointing it out? It’s not shoved in our face, and frankly if it was a heterosexual couple this thread wouldn’t exist, all I’m sayin’

As has been pointed out, Shield of the Moon is about a heterosexual pair. I don’t remember which NPC says this, he’s in one of the 15-25 zones (I think) and is involved in wine making, but mostly wine drinking… and he called my male Sylvari female. When I corrected him, he said something to the effect of “I’m so drunk, I can’t tell my pistols from my stamens”. So yeah, as per the lore, Sylvari have sexual organs.

That said… at no point have I encountered a story where my male Sylvari is told to go rescue his boyfriend. As far as I am aware, my Sylvari’s orientation is up to me. Does he encounter homosexual Sylvari? Well yeah, he considers Caithe a friend. Does he care about that her beloved is female? No, he cares more about the fact that she’s fallen to Nightmare and is a bad person.

I don’t see my character being “forced” into any relationships against his, or as his player, my will. Homosexuals exist, in game and IRL, and either way I don’t really care. My characters orientation is my choice, and just because an NPC or another player made a different choice for their character, has no impact on me.

TL;DR version: unless the devs are saying <female character> your are now the new girlfriend of Caithe/<male character> you are now the boyfriend of the Green Knight, what’s the big deal? You aren’t being forced into anything.

Oroborous.2694:

As has been pointed out, Shield of the Moon is about a heterosexual pair. I don’t remember which NPC says this, he’s in one of the 15-25 zones (I think) and is involved in wine making, but mostly wine drinking… and he called my male Sylvari female. When I corrected him, he said something to the effect of “I’m so drunk, I can’t tell my pistols from my stamens”. So yeah, as per the lore, Sylvari have sexual organs.

That said… at no point have I encountered a story where my male Sylvari is told to go rescue his boyfriend. As far as I am aware, my Sylvari’s orientation is up to me. Does he encounter homosexual Sylvari? Well yeah, he considers Caithe a friend. Does he care about that her beloved is female? No, he cares more about the fact that she’s fallen to Nightmare and is a bad person.

I don’t see my character being “forced” into any relationships against his, or as his player, my will. Homosexuals exist, in game and IRL, and either way I don’t really care. My characters orientation is my choice, and just because an NPC or another player made a different choice for their character, has no impact on me.

TL;DR version: unless the devs are saying <female character> your are now the new girlfriend of Caithe/<male character> you are now the boyfriend of the Green Knight, what’s the big deal? You aren’t being forced into anything.

All Sylvari are effectively pansexual by human standards. Including the player characters. No sylvari anywhere take into account their partner’s sexual organ when they fall in love. I think that’s what a lot of people are having problems with.

Does this mean that a straight person has to play a gay sylvari? Nooo. It just means that there is no such thing as a “straight” sylvari. Your male sylvari could only ever have girlfriends. But when you come up with a reason, you just can’t use the fact that they’re female as a reason, because no sylvari cares.

Gay man IRL here. I can think of exactly three same-sex relationships I’ve come across — the “beloved” couple in the Sylvari story that the OP mentions, Caithe and Faolain (which is understated and could even be missed if you weren’t paying attention), and a random male NPC in the Grove who talks about how he started to notice restlessness on the part of an unknown male person (who presumably was his lover, but could as easily have been a best friend or even a pet).

Three. And only the first is unequivocal and obvious.

My complaint is that there aren’t nearly enough same-sex relationships to make the world believable.

As others have pointed out, I think your problem (and it is your problem, not the game’s) is that you notice the same-sex relationships because you do, in fact, have a problem with homosexual people, despite your insistence to the contrary.

Szin.1250:

My complaint is that there aren’t nearly enough same-sex relationships to make the world believable.

Yes. See, what actually is “forced” is a game world that is entirely, stereotypically heteronormative. Or devoid of women. Or devoid of people of color. Making a small effort to actually show some of the diversity that exists in the real world is the opposite of forced or artificial.

If we’d see a same-sex couple among the other species sometime too, that’d be awesome.

What I find odd is that Sylvari is the only race that has a moderate amount of homosexual couples. Are there even any from any other race?

I haven’t seen any race bash the Sylvari for their relationships, not to mention there can be several counts where a same-sex NPC will flirt with a player, I’ve seen it with a Norn and a human. I wouldn’t rule it out.

Actually, I didn’t notice until my daughter pointed it out to me in the Green Knight story quest line. I think it blended quite well and didnt’ seem forced at all. It seemed fairly naturally laid out to me. shrug

Actually, I commend Anet for going where they have. So many game companies either make light of it (A certain game that makes fun of homosexuality by making their elvish characters tell self depreciating jokes about manicures comes to mind) or ignore it completely. Its part of our world so why shouldn’t people who are really homosexual feel free to see it done tastefully in a game world?

Well as a gay male I welcome the inclusion of this races diversity, I agree for some folks it may be a bit awkard or a shock but as a gay male I have the straight thing forced (if that is what the OP wants to call it) on me all the time and in my face., And yet I seem to still enjoy games, life etc.

It’s 2012 still suprised so many folks still want to keep things like this out of games,movies etc and refuse to accept us as the norm…I applaud Anet for doing this for the sylvari. not that they are gay as its been said they are pansexual.

Elmentcius Koronel.6234

Obviously not a botanist. Some plants self-seed, yes; but other plants have genders. Anybody who grows apples knows this.

Technically with apples it’s not gender related as such, they just can’t self pollinate which isn’t that uncommon with flowering plants, roughly half can’t self pollinate. They are still male and female at the same time (there are other plants though that are specifically male or female only, just apples tree’s aren’t one of the them)…having said that we don’t even let apple tree’s breed really, like oranges they are pretty much all grafted since what comes from a planted seed in most cases won’t be anything like the parents due to how hybridised and graftings from mutated branches modern apples (and oranges..a lot of fruits really) are.

Basically they are pansexual. (I think) They like who they like, which is nothing wrong with but I agree, alot of same sex relationships, they shouldve eased that down abit for the people that have a problem with it. I don’t have a problem with it at all , let the be clear.

I cannot believe people actually think Caithe/Faolain is forced. They were confirmed before the game even launched. As for Eladus and Dagdar…wtf? They were in what, ONE SCENE? Tiachren and Ysvelta had much more screen time and were 10 times more nauseating. “D-don’t you love me?” BLARGH KILL HER, YOU FOOL.

Basically they are pansexual. (I think) They like who they like, which is nothing wrong with but I agree, alot of same sex relationships, they shouldve eased that down abit for the people that have a problem with it. I don’t have a problem with it at all , let the be clear.

Lolwut? No, no they should have not. It’s eased down enough in every day life, all two somewhat obvious homosexual relationships in the entire game do not need to be erased because someone doesn’t like gays. They can be butts out in the real world and deal with it in the game. If anything needs to be eased down, it’s the amount of hetereosexual relationships. Like someone else said, it would be more realistic to have more homosexual relationships, especially with the Sylvari!

Someone will always have a problem with something in a game. You can’t please everyone and these couples aren’t hurting anyone. Well Faolin isn’t exactly healthy for Caithe but that’s a whole different kettle of fish.

Ba air.1372:

Basically they are pansexual. (I think) They like who they like, which is nothing wrong with but I agree, alot of same sex relationships, they shouldve eased that down abit for the people that have a problem with it. I don’t have a problem with it at all , let the be clear.

Lolwut? No, no they should have not. It’s eased down enough in every day life, all two somewhat obvious homosexual relationships in the entire game do not need to be erased because someone doesn’t like gays. They can be butts out in the real world and deal with it in the game. If anything needs to be eased down, it’s the amount of hetereosexual relationships. Like someone else said, it would be more realistic to have more homosexual relationships, especially with the Sylvari!

Someone will always have a problem with something in a game. You can’t please everyone and these couples aren’t hurting anyone. Well Faolin isn’t exactly healthy for Caithe but that’s a whole different kettle of fish.

I’ve never said it should be erased. Read. c:

Stating that it should be “eased down” is about the same as asking for it to be wiped from the game, at this point. These relationships are fairly subtle, so asking for ANet to make them even more so might as well mean we remove them entirely and pretend it never happened.

I hope this clarifies why someone would be upset with the suggestion.

Yes, I agree. Saying that all of two same-sex relationships in the game should be “eased down” when one of them is only encountered in two scenes in one out of three possible story arcs (and you don’t even have to talk to them in the second), and the other is so low-key, is basically just asking for erasure again. I thought the two gay men were handled quite nicely. And they weren’t even the main focus of the arc. Gairwen’s loyalty to her dead male lover and her disgust with Bercilak’s advances got more “airtime” than the two guys did.

If there is a “forced” and in-your-face relationship in this game, it’s gotta be Logan’s obnoxious mix of rage and wangsting over Jennah-this-Jennah-that.

I’ll admit to feeling a bit like the OP at first. I thought ANet was going out of their way to show us that sylvari have no homosexuality bias, so it seemed fake and broke my suspension of disbelief a bit. I mean, sure they have no anti-homosexuality issues, cool…but when it’s shouted in my face it forces me to think in terms of “alright, now the game is trying to make a point” rather than “alright, now the game is telling me a story”.

HOWEVER, after another day or two playing different storylines and hanging around different parts of sylvari-land I discovered I was just suffering from sample bias. I had somehow managed to experience almost every instance of homosexuality before coming across my first few heterosexual couples.

I actually thought Caithe and Faolin’s relationship was danced around a bit in my playing. I didn’t hammer through the story, though, so that may be what leads me to feel a different pacing.

My own story, based on character choices, included a male and female couple (as hinted earlier in this thread) but I wouldn’t say the unbiased love has been thrown at me at all. In fact, my own experience has been more on the overly subtle side.

I keep expecting some external race to bring it up so they can explain love is love but it never happens and I applaud this. It is a non-event; not worth noting or pointing out and I think that was the best way to go about this. I’d say there’s no bias (for or against) for this topic from ArenaNet’s point of view.

I vaguely recall Ree saying something like that in an interview, actually. That you encounter a pairing but nothing is made of it, it’s just matter-of-fact and not highlighted.

Uber Yuna Skillz.9847:

Ba air.1372:

Basically they are pansexual. (I think) They like who they like, which is nothing wrong with but I agree, alot of same sex relationships, they shouldve eased that down abit for the people that have a problem with it. I don’t have a problem with it at all , let the be clear.

Lolwut? No, no they should have not. It’s eased down enough in every day life, all two somewhat obvious homosexual relationships in the entire game do not need to be erased because someone doesn’t like gays. They can be butts out in the real world and deal with it in the game. If anything needs to be eased down, it’s the amount of hetereosexual relationships. Like someone else said, it would be more realistic to have more homosexual relationships, especially with the Sylvari!

Someone will always have a problem with something in a game. You can’t please everyone and these couples aren’t hurting anyone. Well Faolin isn’t exactly healthy for Caithe but that’s a whole different kettle of fish.

I’ve never said it should be erased. Read. c:

And how would you ease them down without erasing them? You can’t do that without removing them from the storyline, which, frankly, would be gross. Gays can’t be part of the story because someone might get offended by the whole three minutes the random gay npcs are on screen? That’s not right and it’s hardly like they’re any more obnoxious or in your face than any other couple in the game.

The Moon Shield storyline was about a thousand times more mushy and agonizing than the Green Knight couple or Caithe and her issues. It is a very predjudiced idea that they should be removed from the storyline to be more palatable when they are no different than any other couple. Hell, at least the Green Knight lovers have the excuse of being bright eyed saplings to explain how mushy they were. The Moon Shield heterosexual couple… not so much and man were they whiny.

Talrune.5130:

Well as a gay male I welcome the inclusion of this races diversity, I agree for some folks it may be a bit awkard or a shock but as a gay male I have the straight thing forced (if that is what the OP wants to call it) on me all the time and in my face., And yet I seem to still enjoy games, life etc.

To me at least that is not the way the OP is meaning it. I do think it feels awkward/forced in the way it was written, as in it could have been written a bit better to sound more natural. I think it’s just the romanticized style sylvari tend to speak in that is throwing me off. Not speaking for the OP just saying my own view of it.

I loved this game and ANet so much more for having same-sex couples. And hope that in the future there will be more, and maybe even a couple in other races?

The couple being discussed at the beginning do not feel forced at all, or in your face. They’re not having intercourse on front of you, or sloppily making out. They’re not declaring, “Oh, my male lover…” so and so. They’re just in love. They made me feel good about this race. The reason it was noticeable to me is that so many online games have general chats and forums that are filled with hate and homophobia. So finding somebody standing up to this is so wonderful.

And how delighted I am to be in the official forums for a game and see so many recognise that even if you don’t like it for yourself, it’s fine to accept that this behaviour exists! It’s part of making a game more inclusive. GW2 has done well compared to a lot of games in making this more inclusive and comfortable for women. I might argue too that while straight men stereotypically like f/f couples, there are plenty of straight women who quite like m/m couples. Even then just being in love and holding hands.

Love and love, and it’s not NSFW love. If they’re emotional beings, not even video game characters should be closeted so that close-minded people can pretend they don’t exist.

It’s not homossexuality that’s being forced at you.
Sylvari disregard gender entirely.

There’s this Sylvari girl alone that is annoyed at a male Sylvari not noticing her.

All Sylvari relationships are thrown at you.
Sylvari is essentially a bunch of young people discovering life and not caring about gender.

Given that most of the time everything everywhere is hetero, no I don’t mind, and no, it doesn’t feel forced. Honestly I felt so great when I encountered a homosexual relationship early on in the story. Also if you do the Green Knight story a hetero relationship or two are shown/hinted at.

Chadramar.8156:

Szin.1250:

My complaint is that there aren’t nearly enough same-sex relationships to make the world believable.

Yes. See, what actually is “forced” is a game world that is entirely, stereotypically heteronormative. Or devoid of women. Or devoid of people of color. Making a small effort to actually show some of the diversity that exists in the real world is the opposite of forced or artificial.

If we’d see a same-sex couple among the other species sometime too, that’d be awesome.

Absolutely this. I have been keeping a running tally of how many dark skinned npcs I see, while we’re on the topic, and so far I am up to three. I am level 52.

Also whenever someone says something like I don’t have a problem with <insert minority here> but…you can be sure that whatever comes next is going to be offensive and will in fact indicate a problem with said minority group.

Relmord.3159:

I agree with this

Devildoc.6721:Key word is subtle, all these sexual orientation things need to be subtle.

And I have no problem with the orientation either just needs to be subtle becasue we do not know what some of the players age ranges are.

Yeah except no one truly says this about straight romance. Everyone SAYS they would because omg think of the babies, but it’s usually ACTUALLY only leveled at people who aren’t straight. The justification you’ve put forth is how people cover up the fact that homosexuality/bisexuality/whatever makes them uncomfortable.

I would have thought that the fact ALL sylvari/sylvari relationships are technically incestous would have been more upsetting than same-gendered relationships. :P

Considering most of my female friends are lesbians, I didn’t notice a thing in game.

In real life I don’t have different feelings towards homosexual couples compared to straight couples. Couples usually look happy, make me feel good through proxy and I wish them well. Their sex or gender irl doesn’t change any of those feelings, neither does it in game.

I do not see an issue with a few same sex couples. After all every facet of entertainment today overly forces the hetero relationship from all angles.

After playing through a bunch of arcs, it took me a while to even realize there were any same-sex couples in the Sylvari. When Caithe reveals it, it’s through story and it’s not forced in the player’s face or anything. All of it’s done very matter-of-factly and I’ve never found it forced at all. In fact I was glad to find it’s not overly mentioned or brought to anyone’s attention. It just is.

I like the Sylvari a lot. They have a really unique culture and background. I can tell a lot of time was put into making them a unique creation. The fact that they don’t care about things like the gender of their partners helps that I think. It’s well-implemented.

They are clearly all ‘plant-sexuals.’
You people are all wrong!

I hope senpai notices my lettuce

I really like the Sylvari and their openness of emotions. Ouf of all the races out there, the Sylvari are by far the ones with whom I can connect myself the most.

As a homosexual myself, I must say I did not even really notice the ‘gay’ relationships in the game, apart from the affection between Caithe and Faolain. They were relatively subtle about it, unlike a certain elve in Dragonm Age Origins, who was proud to be a bisexual and took every chance to speak about it.

So no, I do not agree with the majority of the OP. I welcome change in the mindset of game developers when it comes to controversial subjects. They should not have to limit their creativity just because a certain group of people might feel uncomfortable.

So you might see my Sylvari running next to you someday. Is he gay or not? In the eyes of the Sylvari, he is not. In the eyes of humans, perhaps.