Guild Wars 2

So, with this new update, there are obviously some things to point out.

PART ONE

1. The krait have changed into a more green, glowy appearance. (Edit: There is lore stating that krait can change their appearance, but this has not been represented in-game so far. We’ll have to wait to see if this is the case.)
2. ArenaNet has, in the past, made allusions to the idea of introducing a “jungle dragon”. (Edit: I removed “as the next elder dragon to fight” from the end of this sentence, as I realize now I made an incorrect analysis. Thanks to the people who let me know about that.)
3. The video speaks of nightmare, which rings a bell. What is that bell? The sylvari concept of the Nightmare, the polar opposite of the Dream.
4. I remember hearing that ArenaNet said they may introduce another elder dragon in 2014.
5. The sylvari have long been speculated to have a link to Mordremoth, the jungle dragon. (Edit: It is less likely that all sylvari are minions of Mordremoth and more likely that the Nightmare Court is specifically influenced by Mordremoth.)

Now, keeping all this in mind, I have come to speculate the following:

Could the krait have been corrupted by Mordremoth, through what the video calls “whispers of power”? To me, the krait are the most likely to want power, and so that mention of those whispers strikes me as odd. It could however, be their krait prophets. We’ll have to wait until the update to see. Nevertheless, I would love to hear other people’s thoughts and opinions, so post away!

PART TWO

Some other things I just realized (thanks due to the OP in “Possibility of tying the story together?”) are the following:

1. Scarlet, in her short story, emerges out of her ‘vision’ with the ability to grow vines out of her hands. She uses those vines to choke her mentor to death and strangle him.
2. Sylvari are resistant to Zhaitan’s corruption. Could this be because they are already linked to Mordremoth somehow, and therefore can’t be turned into the minion of another dragon? (Edit: It’s been stated that elder dragon minions are not resistant to the corruption of another elder dragon. However, I have not found or been given the source for this information.)
3. Why did Scarlet go into her vision with a friendly attitude towards her mentor, and then when she came out, she strangles him?
4. The Pale Tree warns Scarlet that what she is doing could have far worse consequences than she even realizes. (Edit: The vision Scarlet has was mentioned to be a sensory deprivation device. This could also lead to insanity, though, I would think.)

This might mean Scarlet is acting as a minion of an elder dragon. If this is the case, what’s the story behind the Aetherblades or the Molten Alliance? The Aetherblades are hired pay, but nothing says they can’t be forced into submission by Scarlet who is in turn working for an elder dragon. The Molten Alliance might be a different thing altogether though. They were supposed to have been formed out of opportunity, but it is possible Scarlet promised them something as well in return for their help.

Here’s the thing… we don’t know what Mordremoth’s powers are.
Does he create followers by killing them and raising them / reanimating the dead (Zhaitan)?
Does he create followers out of molten rock (Primordus)?
Does he create follows out of ice and the promise of power (Jormag)?
Does he create followers out of his corrupting breath (Kralkatorrik)?

I personally feel that Mordremoth is similar to the fallen human god, Abaddon. Whispers in the night that slowly drive someone insane / bring them under your influence to sow chaos and discord in the world. We know that Abaddon was capable of this, could Mordremoth be the same? Scarlet did go into her vision sane and peaceful but came out insane and violent. That change probably came about from an encounter with Mordremoth.

Also… the Pale Tree, she probably knows somewhat the extent of the Sylvari’s immunity to the Elder Dragon corruption but she cannot confirm it against Mordremoth without sacrificing any of her children. This could explain why The Pale Tree tried to stop Scarlet from going further, she had an idea of what would happen and tried to save her.

I love the thought of Mordremoth being behind all this. Just please, for the love of God, do not try to link Scarlet to Mordremoth. I will seriously cry…

Just kill her off, and use it as an example of “What not to do” in the future. We’ll act like she never happened.

I’ve started having an Idea that Scarlet, and maybe even the whole Sylvari race are minions of Mordremoth. No, it doesn’t revolve around the idea the Pale Tree is the Dragon. It’s more like Glint in my eyes, and the Pale Tree is a redeemed Champion of Mordremoth. So rather than making the Sylvari as minions for the Dragon’s rise, she is trying to separate them from that life. There are a few odd ones, like the Nightmare Court. Who aren’t minions, but just Sylvari who have gone down a sole evil path. Scarlet however broke everything the Pale Tree was doing, and opened herself up to Mordremoth. And now everything she’s doing is working to bring the Dragon to wake.

How that involves The Dredge, Flame Legion, Nightmare Court, or Atherblades? …I honestly don’t know.

Yes this is a very loose and weak theory, but a theory none the less.

Sorann Peace.9056:

2. ArenaNet has, in the past, made allusions to the idea of introducing a “jungle dragon” as the next elder dragon to fight.

I don’t remember Anet saying something like this, do you have a source?

Songarg.3657:

I’ve started having an Idea that Scarlet, and maybe even the whole Sylvari race are minions of Mordremoth. No, it doesn’t revolve around the idea the Pale Tree is the Dragon. It’s more like Glint in my eyes, and the Pale Tree is a redeemed Champion of Mordremoth.

Yes this is a very loose and weak theory, but a theory none the less.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/On-the-Sixth-Elder-Dragon-and-its-corruption/first

In this thread, the poster brings up the “Pale Tree = Dragon Champion?” theory and gives decent evidence indicating the theory is false. At this rate, I should ask for a sticky of that page.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Sorann Peace.9056:

2. ArenaNet has, in the past, made allusions to the idea of introducing a “jungle dragon” as the next elder dragon to fight.

I don’t remember Anet saying something like this, do you have a source?

One of them mentioned a “jungle dragon” in an interview. However, there are no plans to go fight it in the near future to my knowledge.

Nice theories guys!hope it comes true,tons of potential for a good lore and fun

You all already seen one of jungle dragon generals (like Teq for Zaitan) just when u start a new sylvari character at the end of your dream you actually fight a plant like corrupted dragon general.

There are many theories about sylvari, but i’m pretty sure than yes they are actually minions of jungle dragons, BUT they are somehow nomore connected to it but instead they have been affected by Ventari vision of life, and since sylvari and his human friend were buried at the root of the pale tree they can have interfered in it’s growth, becoming part of the tree itself.

There is also a sylvari personal story quest that speaks about other pale trees out there and we already know that the Ventari’s human friend (that strangly i don’t remember his name) found the pale tree seeds inside a cavern 250 years ago.

I think is pretty simple, the other dragons corrupts living creatures whilst the jungle dragon, representing the earth element, just make his minion grow from the earth like plants, and the pale trees are actually his way to procreate. Think about Zaitan.
We know he has some special minions to serve as mouth for eating, eyes for see….

Maybe all of this is just a dream. Think about that…

Sorann Peace.9056:

2. ArenaNet has, in the past, made allusions to the idea of introducing a “jungle dragon” as the next elder dragon to fight.

This is where you’re wrong first. The only hint to a next ED has been the in-game comments (which lead to Jormag as next, with Kralk and Primordus as possibles), and Colin from an interview in which he lists every ED but the DSD.

So in point 2, you can say “Any Elder Dragon except the deep sea dragon is possible to be next, with Jormag hinted the most by Pact NPCs.”

Sorann Peace.9056:

2. Sylvari are resistant to Zhaitan’s corruption. Could this be because they are already linked to Mordremoth somehow, and therefore can’t be turned into the minion of another dragon?

No.

Elder Dragon minions are NOT immune to dragon corruption.

Also, on the vision thing – Scott McGough said in an interview with TowerTalk that the device that “let her see the Eternal Alchemy” was just a sensory depreviation device of sorts. Her vision was just a hallucination. Nothing more.

Sorann Peace.9056:

The Aetherblades and the Molten Alliance, APPARENTLY (don’t quote me) have stated they would rather serve Scarlet than the alternative. Does that mean what they’re afraid of is not Scarlet, but something else entirely? Could that be Mordremoth?

The Aetherblades are being paid. And they also work to avoid being killed. The Molten Alliance only said to work with each other only for the benefits of becoming stronger to take out their enemies – mutual goals (though the Flame Legion intended to enslave the dredge).

Songarg.3657:

I’ve started having an Idea that Scarlet, and maybe even the whole Sylvari race are minions of Mordremoth.

I’ve held this theory for ages now. I presume Ventari’s wish for peace was responded to by the pale tree seed and the Ventari’s Tablet “freed” the children of, and the pale tree herself from Mordremoth’s control, in a similar manner to Glint. The Nightmare Court believe that the tablet is a poison and that the sylvari are not living up to their full capabilities.

I don’t know if Mordremoth is next, but if he is, I hope they bring back the Harbinger, Malyck, too.

Nightsong.5973:

Here’s the thing… we don’t know what Mordremoth’s powers are.

There’s the theory that the nigtmare court are a demonstration of her power. I guess green glowies would defeat that theory.

I was talking about the next dragon with a guildie last night and from a practical or logical standpoint Kralkatorrik really made the most sense: of all the dragons only two have made very significant changes to the landscape, have/had lieutenants roaming the skies (look up in Blazeridge Steppes), aren’t too far away (Jormag), have an entire race of Dwarves fighting them (Primordus) or haven’t even been seen at all (Mordremoth and Bubbles). We defeated one of those dragons already.

There are several hints in-game stating that Jormag is next. Sorry to disappoint.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Also, on the vision thing – Scott McGough said in an interview with TowerTalk that the device that “let her see the Eternal Alchemy” was just a sensory depreviation device of sorts. Her vision was just a hallucination. Nothing more.

This is the kind of stuff that kitten es me off. I play the game, read the conversation bubbles, talk to the heralds, watch the cutscenes, and read my in-game mail. Nowhere, did it say that her vision into the Eternal Alchemy was simply a hallucination. I have to come to the forums and read a re-quote by a dev from an interview on another site to get details of the story and the villain I’m supposed to be instrumental in fighting. There needs to be more in-game communication.

And I’d love an explanation of that fact too. She’s supposedly brilliant, yet doesn’t know that instead of delving into the EA she simply got into a sensory deprivation device and tripped? Then why the sudden madness and murder? And the vines thing…can all sylvari do that?

The dragon makes his minions from jungle toxin…..it turns them greenish yellow.

Why would the krait, a race from the ocean, be working with an elder dragon from a jungle. If you follow the lore behind the krait, quaggan and hylek it becomes clear that the krait didn’t used to be a problem. Something from deep in the ocean (Deep Sea Dragon) pushed them out of their home into the other aquatic civilizations and eventually to Tyria. If a dragon made them run away from where they lived why would they be working with an entirely different one? If they were going to work with any Dragons it would be DSD. I’m pretty sure they’re connected to something else entirely unrelated to dragons.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Why would the krait, a race from the ocean, be working with an elder dragon from a jungle. If you follow the lore behind the krait, quaggan and hylek it becomes clear that the krait didn’t used to be a problem. Something from deep in the ocean (Deep Sea Dragon) pushed them out of their home into the other aquatic civilizations and eventually to Tyria. If a dragon made them run away from where they lived why would they be working with an entirely different one? If they were going to work with any Dragons it would be DSD. I’m pretty sure they’re connected to something else entirely unrelated to dragons.

Risen Krait.

Azure Prower.8701:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Why would the krait, a race from the ocean, be working with an elder dragon from a jungle. If you follow the lore behind the krait, quaggan and hylek it becomes clear that the krait didn’t used to be a problem. Something from deep in the ocean (Deep Sea Dragon) pushed them out of their home into the other aquatic civilizations and eventually to Tyria. If a dragon made them run away from where they lived why would they be working with an entirely different one? If they were going to work with any Dragons it would be DSD. I’m pretty sure they’re connected to something else entirely unrelated to dragons.

Risen Krait.

Does not connect in a meaningful way with the Krait in Kessex Hills who are just normal every day Krait, and not connected to an Elder Dragon.

No one is next. Stop trying to convince yourself that the story is ever going to advance. We’ve had over 1 year of patches so far and not one of them advanced the story of the game in any way. All they’re doing is adding 2 week filler villains.

Songarg.3657:

I’ve started having an Idea that Scarlet, and maybe even the whole Sylvari race are minions of Mordremoth. No, it doesn’t revolve around the idea the Pale Tree is the Dragon. It’s more like Glint in my eyes, and the Pale Tree is a redeemed Champion of Mordremoth. So rather than making the Sylvari as minions for the Dragon’s rise, she is trying to separate them from that life. There are a few odd ones, like the Nightmare Court. Who aren’t minions, but just Sylvari who have gone down a sole evil path. Scarlet however broke everything the Pale Tree was doing, and opened herself up to Mordremoth. And now everything she’s doing is working to bring the Dragon to wake.

How that involves The Dredge, Flame Legion, Nightmare Court, or Atherblades? …I honestly don’t know.

Yes this is a very loose and weak theory, but a theory none the less.

OR the nightmare court realizes that they were made as dragon minions and wants to be set back on track. I’ve had this idea since like month 4 of release. All sylvari were made to be minions and that one discoverer guy broke them free from that. They don’t realize this but the nightmare court.

Ace.3816:

No one is next. Stop trying to convince yourself that the story is ever going to advance. We’ve had over 1 year of patches so far and not one of them advanced the story of the game in any way. All they’re doing is adding 2 week filler villains.

That’s actually a lie I believe mordremoth is next, or the rise of zhaitain (he isn’t dead)

Kal Spiro.9745:

Azure Prower.8701:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Why would the krait, a race from the ocean, be working with an elder dragon from a jungle. If you follow the lore behind the krait, quaggan and hylek it becomes clear that the krait didn’t used to be a problem. Something from deep in the ocean (Deep Sea Dragon) pushed them out of their home into the other aquatic civilizations and eventually to Tyria. If a dragon made them run away from where they lived why would they be working with an entirely different one? If they were going to work with any Dragons it would be DSD. I’m pretty sure they’re connected to something else entirely unrelated to dragons.

Risen Krait.

Does not connect in a meaningful way with the Krait in Kessex Hills who are just normal every day Krait, and not connected to an Elder Dragon.

To be fair, it’s pretty obvious we’re going to be seeing Krait that are far, far from normal very soon.

Actually, this gives me a great idea for what to do with Scarlet Briar. What if she attempts to establish some kind of connection with the Jungle Dragon in order to gain more power, but the connection backfires? Scarlet’s powers and personality are subsumed in service to the dragon and she’s horribly mutated in a manner similar to the powerful minions of Zhaitan. Then once she’s gone, preferably in a very satisfying cutscene that shows her destruction in graphic detail, she sets to work on her minions and begins helping transform the Molten Alliance and Aetherblades.

Now THAT would be a fitting use for Scarlet that would tie the game back in to a serious storyline.

Nightsong.5973:

Here’s the thing… we don’t know what Mordremoth’s powers are.
Does he create followers by killing them and raising them / reanimating the dead (Zhaitan)?
Does he create followers out of molten rock (Primordus)?
Does he create follows out of ice and the promise of power (Jormag)?
Does he create followers out of his corrupting breath (Kralkatorrik)?

Kralky and Jormag use living beings that fell flawed (not powerful/not perfect enough)
Zhai and Primo use dead (corpses and fossils)
Bubbles is known to create beings from water, so Mordre could fall under creation of beings from plantlife (would explain not only the disappearance of the plant beings so often fought in GW, but also the Sylvari origins if it aint tied to the druids).

This patch won’t bring an elder dragon, this patch will bring us the Molten Alliance 2.0, a lore-unfriendly alliance between the xenophobix Krait and the Nightmare Court that has probably never even seen the ocean and despises most living things. And of course, cause that’s apparantely the solution to everything that poops out of a story-writers pen (not trying to be offensive) it is driven by our unloved, comical wanna-be supervillian Scarlet.
I sure hope atleast the content will be good.
PS: How did the Nightmre Court get into Kessex Hills?
PSS: If all this speculation about the alliance turns out to be true, then it was kind of predictable even though they tryed to be as vage was possible with all the information.

Seras.5702:

And I’d love an explanation of that fact too. She’s supposedly brilliant, yet doesn’t know that instead of delving into the EA she simply got into a sensory deprivation device and tripped? Then why the sudden madness and murder? And the vines thing…can all sylvari do that?

The sensory deprivation is what drove her mad (and gave her the misguided goal that included killing folks). The vine things…. all sylvari can grow plants to varying degrees – that’s how they grow their armor, weapons, and houses. So I would argue yes.

Kalastraer.8264:

Songarg.3657:

I’ve started having an Idea that Scarlet, and maybe even the whole Sylvari race are minions of Mordremoth. No, it doesn’t revolve around the idea the Pale Tree is the Dragon. It’s more like Glint in my eyes, and the Pale Tree is a redeemed Champion of Mordremoth. So rather than making the Sylvari as minions for the Dragon’s rise, she is trying to separate them from that life. There are a few odd ones, like the Nightmare Court. Who aren’t minions, but just Sylvari who have gone down a sole evil path. Scarlet however broke everything the Pale Tree was doing, and opened herself up to Mordremoth. And now everything she’s doing is working to bring the Dragon to wake.

How that involves The Dredge, Flame Legion, Nightmare Court, or Atherblades? …I honestly don’t know.

Yes this is a very loose and weak theory, but a theory none the less.

OR the nightmare court realizes that they were made as dragon minions and wants to be set back on track. I’ve had this idea since like month 4 of release. All sylvari were made to be minions and that one discoverer guy broke them free from that. They don’t realize this but the nightmare court.

The theory that sylvari are Elder Dragons has been practically debunked.

Malyck and their immunity are the two strongest points (ED minions are not immune to other ED corruptions; Malyck acts no different than standard sylvari). If there is any amount of connection to the ED for sylvari, it is either that they were made specifically to counter them, and/or the Nightmare in the Dream of Dreams (which btw is not unique to sylvari – see White Stag) is originating from Mordremoth.

And @Songarg: Glint was able to be redeemed because of the Forgotten’s magic. Ventari’s Tablet is not magical in any way shape or form therefore it would be impossible to give a dragon minion (powerful or weak) free will (which is what the Forgotten’s magic did for Glaust aka Glint). Furthermore, the Pale Tree was sentient and has been told to us to have been friendly even before Ventari’s death (and the creation of the tablet). You’re oh-so-VERY common theory has been debunked for months now. All variations of it, really.

Andele.1306:

Kralky and Jormag use living beings that fell flawed (not powerful/not perfect enough)
Zhai and Primo use dead (corpses and fossils)
Bubbles is known to create beings from water, so Mordre could fall under creation of beings from plantlife (would explain not only the disappearance of the plant beings so often fought in GW, but also the Sylvari origins if it aint tied to the druids).

The thing about Kralkatorrik and perfection is merely a theory. He is capable of corrupting anything physical (it seems the only thing he doesn’t corrupt is souls and water).
Primordus doesn’t corrupt fossils. And Jormag has been known to use corpses himself (probably Kralkatorrik too). Primordus creates minions from rock and stone – though it is possible for him to corrupt living beings via encasing them in stone and turning the body to lava, he hasn’t done this (to our knowledge). Similarly Zhaitan is capable of corrupting living beings – and Jormag’s capable of corrupting via means other than his typical mental corruption.

Each Elder Dragon has a preference of corruption, but in the end they can all corrupt the same thing. Primordus prefers rock and fire; Kralkatorrik prefers the physical; Jormag prefers corrupting mentally (and having those who desire strength work for him); Zhaitan prefers raising corpses; the DSD to all our knowledge prefers corrupting water.

But they’re not limited to that.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Azure Prower.8701:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Why would the krait, a race from the ocean, be working with an elder dragon from a jungle. If you follow the lore behind the krait, quaggan and hylek it becomes clear that the krait didn’t used to be a problem. Something from deep in the ocean (Deep Sea Dragon) pushed them out of their home into the other aquatic civilizations and eventually to Tyria. If a dragon made them run away from where they lived why would they be working with an entirely different one? If they were going to work with any Dragons it would be DSD. I’m pretty sure they’re connected to something else entirely unrelated to dragons.

Risen Krait.

Does not connect in a meaningful way with the Krait in Kessex Hills who are just normal every day Krait, and not connected to an Elder Dragon.

. <- The point.

huh?
o <- You head.
-|-
/ \

Does glowing toxic green Krait look normal to you?

I say the ascended Krait Prophets are the true leaders of the Nightmare Court!

The Krait are mostly seen in the Sea of Sorrows the beaches of which border the same areas the Nightmare Court frequent.

Their Prophets ascend to higher planes of existence.

Orr is the of the places that border the Sea of Sorrows and it was near or in Orr that Faolain was corrupted by the Nightmare….

Do I make a good argument or bad?

Scarlet is an elder dragon(Mordremoth)

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The theory that sylvari are Elder Dragons has been practically debunked.

Malyck and their immunity are the two strongest points (ED minions are not immune to other ED corruptions; Malyck acts no different than standard sylvari). If there is any amount of connection to the ED for sylvari, it is either that they were made specifically to counter them, and/or the Nightmare in the Dream of Dreams (which btw is not unique to sylvari – see White Stag) is originating from Mordremoth.

Never understood those two arguments.

First, Malyck indeed acts different than the standard Sylvari. Malick is the Switzerland of the Sylvari and cant really make a difference between the Nightmare and the Dream, implying that being born far from its tree he is missing the ‘final formatting’.

During hsi dialogues he implies that he follows the player because he is nice and the others look kind of mad, but not because he understands this notion of nightmare/evil Dream/good.
Malick is neutral.

On top of that he has amnesy. Talk about a nice way to later find that upon returning to his tree, he lives through a terrifying episode of ’I am your father! Noooooooo" (have you noticed how sylvary nightmare/dream is reminder of certain Jedi light.dark side? Up to the physiical changes upon abusing of the dark side?)
Amnesy was always a nice way in fantasy novels to later find that the hero is the son of Satan.

Edit: I talk about amnesy in terms of not knowing nothing about where he came from/ not knowing his own past/ not knowing his parents.

About minions being immune… Is not about being immune, is more about the fact that as far as I know, no minion was corrupted by another ED (as if they could not do it)
The special examples in game are all found in a Lab! Come on… we can find in labs mouses growing human ears in their backs for prostetic purposes. It does not mean mouses can grow human ears… They can’t… unless in a lab…
And why would asura try to combine corruptions in the first place if this was possible ‘naturaly’?

I like the theory of the sylvari being linked to a dragon and I dont find it at all rebunked by those arguments.

Azure Prower.8701:

Does glowing toxic green Krait look normal to you?

We don’t know what krait inside of one of their obelisks look like. The obelisk causing the green glowies is just as likely as an ED or SB. Nor do I remember encountering Zhaitan corruption causing neon green glowies. Maybe one of the previous villains is involved, possibly Canach as he has already shown aptitude for chemically altering the psychology of entire races (any anything chemical is stereotypically green glowy).

We have never seen a race “corrupted” or “buffed” by that effect and any conclusions drawn from it are wild and fantastical conjecture. Conjecture is fine if you make it clear that you are making wild assumptions, but “get the point into your head” is a clear statement that you are not.

If you want a definitive answer: wait to find out. It would have been just as easy to tie Mordremoth to The Secret of Southsun and Primordus to Flame and Frost. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

All of which is entirely off-topic to this thread. The chances of the LS being tied to the next dragon are remote: at least this close to when the Living Story system first released. If we do see any real drastic changes in the near future I would assume it would be the new race first, but I assume that is still a ways off.

Azure Prower.8701:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Azure Prower.8701:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Why would the krait, a race from the ocean, be working with an elder dragon from a jungle. If you follow the lore behind the krait, quaggan and hylek it becomes clear that the krait didn’t used to be a problem. Something from deep in the ocean (Deep Sea Dragon) pushed them out of their home into the other aquatic civilizations and eventually to Tyria. If a dragon made them run away from where they lived why would they be working with an entirely different one? If they were going to work with any Dragons it would be DSD. I’m pretty sure they’re connected to something else entirely unrelated to dragons.

Risen Krait.

Does not connect in a meaningful way with the Krait in Kessex Hills who are just normal every day Krait, and not connected to an Elder Dragon.

. <- The point.

huh?
o <- You head.
-|-
/ \

Does glowing toxic green Krait look normal to you?

Ok, so lets look at some Dragon Minions, shall we? Risen: Undead walking corpses, all falling apart. Most similar to normal. Icebrood: bulging with ice crystals, entirely different color pallet and for some entirely different physical form. Some Icebrood norn look more like oakhearts. Destroyers: made of magma, with flowing lava, complete different color pallet. Branded: completely crystalized, entirely different color pallet.

Glowing green is just an indication of magic, not Elder Dragon power. Most likely their Abyssal lords doing something. If they were connected to Mordremoth they wouldn’t just be glowing green, they would be turned fully into some sort of plant creature.

Also, MY point was that the Krait currently living in Kessex hills are their own. There is no reason to indicate, including glowing green, that would reasonably connect them to an Elder Dragon. I’ll go even further to say that Risen aren’t an indication of any race consorting with Elder Dragons, especially when the only Krait Dragon Minions are Risen, since ALL Risen are taken after death, not before.

Kal Spiro.9745:

ALL Risen are taken after death, not before

Except Kellach if we had left him alone – your argument is sound though. Zhaitan prefers to take the dead instead of the living. As Konig pointed out, in this thread or another, the dragons could potentially corrupt anything they please, but each prefer to corrupt in their own way and very rarely venture away from that preference.

The once scenario that could work is that one of the many queens we have killed has become risen and Zhaitan is using her to confuse the krait in that area. That’s a really weak way to tie Zhaitan to all of this though. Most likely scenario (if SB doesn’t get involved retcon all the krait lore):

Kal Spiro.9745:

Glowing green is just an indication of magic, not Elder Dragon power. Most likely their Abyssal lords doing something.

- or – the queen is up to no good. I’m still trying to figure out how they would benefit from building a massive weapon – possibly trying to perform a mass sacrifice (in order to summon the krait prophets and their armies).

Scarlet is not acting as minion, but she can be a champion. Or is there some official rule that champion of elder dragon has to be a dragon?

Shadow Behemoth’s Master perhaps? Madking Thorn’s portal during halloween is similar to the portals at Shadow behemoths swamp.

daros.3407:

Scarlet is not acting as minion, but she can be a champion. Or is there some official rule that champion of elder dragon has to be a dragon?

Nope. http://www.guildwars2guru.com/uploads/gallery/album_163/gallery_3318_163_39486.png

Dragons can have multiple champions […]. The Drakkar Beast (the term I use – not official or final) is most likely a champion of Jormag.

“Drakkar Beast” is not really dragon-sounding to me: but that’s an assumption.

Verdelet Arconia.6987:

Shadow Behemoth’s Master perhaps? Madking Thorn’s portal during halloween is similar to the portals at Shadow behemoths swamp.

They lead to the same area of the mists (the underworld). Thorn is stuck there but not by choice. He has taken over part of it, but I don’t think he is directly related to the Shadow Behemoth in any important way – he just happens to live in the same prison.

Jeff.4680:

I love the thought of Mordremoth being behind all this. Just please, for the love of God, do not try to link Scarlet to Mordremoth. I will seriously cry…

Just kill her off, and use it as an example of “What not to do” in the future. We’ll act like she never happened.

So much this. ^^

I just want an Elder Dragon to be next. All this ruckus being caused by Scarlet and her cronies will always be second banana to this.

All she’s really doing is taking all the established baddies in Tyria and putting them all together. It’s like Prince Charming uniting all the evil fairy-tale people and trying to give them their happily ever after.

daros.3407:

Scarlet is not acting as minion, but she can be a champion. Or is there some official rule that champion of elder dragon has to be a dragon?

I hope she’s taken over and mutated into something really horrible and twisted. It would actually make her ridiculousness worthwhile, since it would be a shock seeing such a goofy, childish villain turned into something sinister.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The thing about Kralkatorrik and perfection is merely a theory. He is capable of corrupting anything physical (it seems the only thing he doesn’t corrupt is souls and water).
Primordus doesn’t corrupt fossils. And Jormag has been known to use corpses himself (probably Kralkatorrik too). Primordus creates minions from rock and stone – though it is possible for him to corrupt living beings via encasing them in stone and turning the body to lava, he hasn’t done this (to our knowledge). Similarly Zhaitan is capable of corrupting living beings – and Jormag’s capable of corrupting via means other than his typical mental corruption.

Each Elder Dragon has a preference of corruption, but in the end they can all corrupt the same thing. Primordus prefers rock and fire; Kralkatorrik prefers the physical; Jormag prefers corrupting mentally (and having those who desire strength work for him); Zhaitan prefers raising corpses; the DSD to all our knowledge prefers corrupting water.

But they’re not limited to that.

No, we got NPCs in the brand that were there in them mids of it when kralky flew off that are still uncorrupted (and a entire skillpoint and a master of a manly order in the personal story nicely dedicated to it). Also he does corrupt water, oil and even somehow rain clouds n brushes which by all rights should be blocked off by the corruption and burned off respectively.
Again, do the personal story skritt line, a you nicely get the explanation that before corrupting the fossil of a ancient crab, it still had eggs in it, thats why the whole thing goes apekitten.
Jormag and Kralky have no known usage of dead people (dying yes but not dead).
Jormag and Kralky corrupt in the same way of spreading parts of their corruption by force as shown again in the brand and Frostgorge meta/HotW (4 times in a row as a matter of fact).
So no all your points are once again wrong as shown by in game events and descriptions.

BeoErgon.9107:

About minions being immune… Is not about being immune, is more about the fact that as far as I know, no minion was corrupted by another ED (as if they could not do it)
The special examples in game are all found in a Lab! Come on… we can find in labs mouses growing human ears in their backs for prostetic purposes. It does not mean mouses can grow human ears… They can’t… unless in a lab…

You got the sylvari corrupted by zhaitans influence (not undead but risen mentality/gone mad and acting as one of his champions and allied with the risen) in the personal story quest at whisperwill bog. So they are immune to being risen by zhaitan, but thats more because of the lack of corpse to get rezzed, not the dragons influence itself, we got other examples off that in most 50+ non orr zones where a small group of another dragons minions are either directly (destroyers and risen krait in MM) or indirectly (icebrood and destroyers in DRGC) helping eachother.

BeoErgon.9107:

First, Malyck indeed acts different than the standard Sylvari. Malick is the Switzerland of the Sylvari and cant really make a difference between the Nightmare and the Dream, implying that being born far from its tree he is missing the ‘final formatting’.

During hsi dialogues he implies that he follows the player because he is nice and the others look kind of mad, but not because he understands this notion of nightmare/evil Dream/good.
Malick is neutral.]

On top of that he has amnesy. Talk about a nice way to later find that upon returning to his tree, he lives through a terrifying episode of ’I am your father! Noooooooo" (have you noticed how sylvary nightmare/dream is reminder of certain Jedi light.dark side? Up to the physiical changes upon abusing of the dark side?)
Amnesy was always a nice way in fantasy novels to later find that the hero is the son of Satan.

Edit: I talk about amnesy in terms of not knowing nothing about where he came from/ not knowing his own past/ not knowing his parents.

Malyck is not fast to trust or judge, but that doesn’t make him “neutral” – he is very unrelenting in fighting and he helps those who help him. He is far more like Caithe than any Nightmare Courtier. He follows and trusts the player because the player went out of his/her way to help Malyck and Malyck’s friends (the Wardens were who captured by the Nightmare Courtiers who were looking for Malyck). It is not because “the others look mad” – it’s because the PC proved he/she is trustworthy to Malyck.

Furthermore, Malyck does NOT have amnesia. If you go with Caithe, he shows full well that he remembers everything. The bit about amnesia was an assumption by the player character because Malyck never heard of the Grove, Pale Tree, or the Dream. He never lost his memory, but he never had a Dream of Dreams experience either (note: the Dream of Dreams is not unique unto sylvari, as per the White Stag, so the Pale Tree may be unique among the sylvari trees to be tied to the Dream of Dreams).

BeoErgon.9107:

About minions being immune… Is not about being immune, is more about the fact that as far as I know, no minion was corrupted by another ED (as if they could not do it)
The special examples in game are all found in a Lab! Come on… we can find in labs mouses growing human ears in their backs for prostetic purposes. It does not mean mouses can grow human ears… They can’t… unless in a lab…
And why would asura try to combine corruptions in the first place if this was possible ‘naturaly’?

I like the theory of the sylvari being linked to a dragon and I dont find it at all rebunked by those arguments.

Dragon minions indeed can be corrupted by another Elder Dragon. Kudu’s Monster, Kudu, and Subject Alpha are all such cases – the first I listed, Kudu’s MOnster, is a Risen Giant who has abilities tied to Primordus, Jormag, and Kralkatorrik. What Subject Alpha was originally is rather unclear though he also shows abilities of Zhaitan, Primordus, Jormag, and Kralkatorrik – as well as “Mordremoth” (the suspected name for the jungle dragon). Kudu himself appear Branded but somehow managed to retain his individuality, and iirc, also exhibits Primordus and Jormag-related skills.

The very fact that it is possible proves that sylvari are not dragon minions. The reason being that for sylvari it is not possible at all – coming into contact with draconic corruption kills a sylvari. This makes it physically impossible for them to be corrupted by any Elder Dragon – naturally or artificially. Even if we only have artificially created multi-dragon minions, the fact we have multi-dragon minions and cannot even get a uni-dragon minion sylvari proves that it is not possible for sylvari to be a dragon minion.

To use your rat and human ear argument – though you’ll be hard pressed to find a rat growing a human ear in nature, a genetic mutation is still possible to occur. This is, in fact, what tumors and cancers are. The rat growing a human ear is just a specialized (read: artificially made) tumor.

daros.3407:

Scarlet is not acting as minion, but she can be a champion. Or is there some official rule that champion of elder dragon has to be a dragon?

A “dragon champion” is just a lieutenant of an Elder Dragon – a dragon minion with more self-will and the ability to control other nearby (weaker willed) minions.

So no, not all dragon champions are dragons; they’re just champions of an Elder Dragon. Most of the talking risen at the end of the personal story (in Orr) and even in Orr events (especially the temple priests/priestesses) are potentially considered dragon champions.

Andele.1306:

No, we got NPCs in the brand that were there in them mids of it when kralky flew off that are still uncorrupted (and a entire skillpoint and a master of a manly order in the personal story nicely dedicated to it). Also he does corrupt water, oil and even somehow rain clouds n brushes which by all rights should be blocked off by the corruption and burned off respectively.
Again, do the personal story skritt line, a you nicely get the explanation that before corrupting the fossil of a ancient crab, it still had eggs in it, thats why the whole thing goes apekitten.
Jormag and Kralky have no known usage of dead people (dying yes but not dead).
Jormag and Kralky corrupt in the same way of spreading parts of their corruption by force as shown again in the brand and Frostgorge meta/HotW (4 times in a row as a matter of fact).
So no all your points are once again wrong as shown by in game events and descriptions.

For the NPCs, are you referring to Almorra? Because it was stated that she was on the edge of the Dragonbrand, not within it, as Kralkatorrik flew over. She quite literally missed being corrupted by a hair. This was stated in an interview shortly after Ghosts of Ascalon’s release – the skill point marking where Almorra killed her warband is even on the edge of the Dragonbrand and the cinematic showing Kralkatorrik flying overhead (seen when joining the Vigil) shows Almorra on the edge as well.

I’m not sure what water you refer to, given how the water is actually clear in the Dragonbrand. The things within the water got corrupted, but not the water itself by all appearances (the water did not turn to crystal). Same goes for the rainclouds – I’ve not seen any such mention of that, though there is the “Brandstorm” which is created by the concentrated corruption (note: made by the corruption, not corrupted storm clouds).

And I have done the skritt storyline, nothing proves that the Destroyer Queen was a corrupted living being. The mentor does speculate that it could be because other dragons have done that (see Branded Devourer Queen and most Risen Spiders/Drakes), but all mentors also state it can just be a new kind of destroyer minion. Furthermore, those “destroyer eggs” hatch full grown Destroyer Crabs and even Destroyer Trolls. I don’t know of a crab that can breed trolls. Do you? And nothing says that Destroyer Queen was even a fossil.

See Edge of Destiny, chapter 1, for Jormag corrupting a corpse. In fact, I’ll quote for you:

Eir roared, her blades flinging out to slash the throats of two more icebrood. They fell beside her as another came on – a man with hair like a horse’s tail.
She knew this man, though his face was smashed, his nose canted to one side, his teeth gone where some great fist had struck him. His flesh was sealed in ice. His eyes were white, filled with the fury of the Dragonspawn.

His face was caved in by a powerful blow before he was turned into an icebrood. There are other lines in that chapter which call the icebrood “dead men” as well. So yes, some icebrood are in fact, corpses.

As seen in Edge of Destiny and this post by Stephane lo Presti responding on behalf of Jeff Grubb, Jormag corrupts mentally. Kralkatorrik, as seen in Edge of Destiny, corrupted by breathing on the beings. In linked post by Stephane, in fact, Jeff outright states:

“[…]not all Elder Dragons and their champions have the same general powers. Jormag has definite mind-affecting powers – the others may not. The Great Destroyer did not seem to corrupt living creatures as opposed to create mockeries out of stone and magma, while Kralkatorrik definitely did. Each Elder Dragon is a unique form of destruction, and expecting them to have the same abilities is like expecting a typhoon to be an earthquake. Their similarity is in the destruction and pain they leave in their wake.”

While Jormag and his champions may, like Kralkatorrik and his champions, transport its minions via “crystals” (Ice Crystals in Jormag’s case, as they’re called), they corrupt differently. Jormag corrupts mentally, Kralkatorrik does not. They may seem similar superficially, but it is just that – on the surface.

TL;DR: While it is possible for the Elder Dragons to corrupt in similar or the same manners (Kellach proves Zhaitan can corrupt living; Sanguinary Blade proves Jormag can corrupt non-mentally; Edge of Destiny proves Jormag can corrupt corpses; this interview proves Primordus can corrupt living beings (but we haven’t seen such), they each hold their own way of corrupting. Why they corrupt differently is still unknown. But this much is a fact, as I have shown.

The first thing I want to know here is if the “nightmare” from the court is the same “nightmare” as the family of enemies.

In GW1, there was an entire family of demonic shadow creatures classified as ‘nightmare’. They lurked in dark places and the mists.

In Prophecies they were found mostly in swamps and the shadows of mountains, and they looked like humanoid creatures with a tail that moved around in all fours in a reptilian manner, waving their tails much like shadow skelk do in GW2.
These nightmares do not seem to be very bright. And they seem to appear like elementals, in places where there’s darkness and fear.

Later, players can find different nightmares in the realms of the gods, that looked like some enemies players met before:
- Abyssals, looking like trolls.
- Aatxes, looking like minotaurs.
- Nights, looking like drakes.
- And, of course, the main forces of the Shadow Army, that looked like shadowy versions of the White Mantle, symbols at all.
They were not related to those enemies in any way, they just looked like them. No one knows why. Did they took those forms because players would fear them? Where they born from nightmares people had about those creatures? No one knows.
What’s sure is that these nightmares were not mindless and poping ‘naturally’ like the first nightmares. They had an agenda, obeying Menzies’ orders, battling against the human gods.

Later in Factions the reptilian nightmares appear again, this time accompanying a court of demons lead by Kanaxai.
This demon had half of his body turned into shadow. Pitch black with bright orange lines in circular patters, and a paw-like symbol glowing orange on his chest.
Kanaxai is nothing but a mystery. No one knows where did he come from, why was he buried deep under the Jade Sea or why is he half ‘nightmare’.

The humanoid members of the shadow army come again in nightfall, this time as allies of Abaddon given as reinforcements by Menzies.

The last form of nightmare we see is in Eye of the North, with the mist vaettir. Unlike the shadow and scourge vaettir, that look like the dark reptilian ones, the mist vaettir look clear, and are shaped after Jade Sea’s mantle fish. Vaettir seem to act like wildlife like the first nightmares, without some sort of agenda. They just pop from the shadows of the landscape, and attack anyone who passes by.

These nightmares are related to fear and shadows.

In GW2, nightmares come back as shadows. The Shadow Behemoth, Aataxes, shadow beats… they are recognized by their dark bodies, glowing yellow eyes and ‘insides’ (like when they have a mouth and open it) and greenish and bluish lines adorning their bodies as if they were some sort of chaotic virus creature from the Tron franchise.

They are still classified as ‘nightmare’ in the wiki but the only naming one can barely see them sharing is ‘shadow’. Shadow behemoth, shadow beast, shade… they are hardly ever referred to as ‘nighatmares’.

And they don’t seem to count towards any of the slayer achievements, or be affected by any racial sigil.

So what’s the relation between nightmare court, nightmares and nightmare krait?

Look at ‘flame’ creatures. Destroyers, flame legion, flame imps… they all have similar themes and aesthetics, yet they are not directly related to each other other than ‘fire’. When a flame legion shaman imbues himself in flame power, their hads befome fiery like a fire imps’, and their eyes and parts of their body glow red with flames.

Is ‘nightmare’ a domain of power like ‘fire’ that makes anyone who is imbued in it "nightmarish’?
Or is the nightmare dragon really the source of ‘nightmare’ and anything related to ‘nightmare’ is linked to it?

Krait would never work along any other race. So I lean towards they looking ‘shadowy and nightmarish’ because they are using nightmare power, not because they are related to the nightmare court.

My guess is that thy opened a portal to the shadow realm from whence nightmares come, and they are somehow using that to get that ‘nightmare’ power.

@Konig Des Todes.2086

It is evident from the dialog that Malyck has not gone through the dream/nightmare. That I agree. But please don’t disregard part of what I said. When I talk about amnesia I am talking about how convenient it is that Malyck does know nothing about his tree. He just knows where it is. He knows nothign about his past.
This is really convenient to introduce later plot twists.
Now, is the lack of dream/nightmare because his tree does not have such? Or it is because his pod travelled far from the tree before Malyck was mature enough to enter the dream?
We can’t say.
Malyck talks about a feelign of distance and a loss. The distance might be his tree. But the loss? Can’t it be because he is missing something like the dream?

About neutrality : he is rescued by the player when the nightmare court was assaulting his friends. Of course he would side with him! But when the player tries to explain the difference between the dream and the nightmare, Malyck answers :

Player (about the dream/nightmare) : The two concepts share origins, but ours come from the Dream. Theirs spawn from the Nightmare
Malyck: I do not wholly understand the difference, but I see that it means a great deal to you.
Later he goes with the player because “You’ve been kind, while those courtiers bring suffering. So I can agree”
As I said, he sides with the player because he was nice to him while the nightmare court chased his friends (and during many dialogues, he finds them to be mad :

Malyck:The Knight of Embers is a fool. Whatever this “nightmare” is, it led her to obsession and madness. Is your “Dream” the same?
<Character Name>:No. The Dream is a vision of hope and a feeling of purpose. It guides us toward the light, not into evil.
Malyck :I wish I could say that I understood the difference, but I don’t.

Again : he does not know the difference. The are the same for him.
For me it means Malyck is neutral in the dream/nightmare fight. He sides with the player for some reasons, but not because it is his nature to side with the dream faction.

…

About the lab discussion, it is a matter of feelings. For me anything happening in an Asuran lab can not be taken as ‘natural’. Asura tend to try to combine impossible things and defy the usual laws of ‘nature’.

This again is a point of view.

…

I have read your theories about the sylvari and agree with most. But I am not as sure as you about those two points : Malyck being more like the Dream sylvari and dragons being able to corrup other minions.

Malick not knowing nothing about his tree is most convenient for later plot twists. Asuran experiments should not, in my opinion, be taken as reference for ‘natural’ rules.

Now, I talk about my opinion. Only time and further story development will tell.

MithranArkanere.8957:

-snip-

The Nightmare in the Dream of Dreams is heavily hinted to be tied to the Elder Dragons, which are definitely not the same as Nightmares – which are, in effect, malicious spiritual beings (based on my GW1 research at least, primarily from Xandra’s quest in the Far Shiverpeaks).

Faolain and Caithe, for example, are said to first encounter the Nightmare in Orr – this is where Faolain first fell to Nightmare (before joining the Nightmare Court), though Caithe managed to pull back from it.

MithranArkanere.8957:

They are still classified as ‘nightmare’ in the wiki but the only naming one can barely see them sharing is ‘shadow’. Shadow behemoth, shadow beast, shade… they are hardly ever referred to as ‘nighatmares’.

Shadow fiend* – the wiki classification is an unofficial term based off of GW1 classification.

MithranArkanere.8957:

Krait would never work along any other race. So I lean towards they looking ‘shadowy and nightmarish’ because they are using nightmare power, not because they are related to the nightmare court.

Explain the giant thorns coming from the tower in the preview pics/video, and the giant flower-like thing at the very top of it. Then there’s also the news presses that state the krait and Nightmare Court are allies, and dat-mining that says Scarlet’s behind it all.

BeoErgon.9107:

It is evident from the dialog that Malyck has not gone through the dream/nightmare. That I agree. But please don’t disregard part of what I said. When I talk about amnesia I am talking about how convenient it is that Malyck does know nothing about his tree. He just knows where it is. He knows nothign about his past.

And this is where I say you are wrong. He knows his past from the moment of awakening to the present. He is able to perfectly trace back his steps with Caithe’s option, without going “I remember now!” – because he never forgot. Hence why I said he didn’t have amnesia. I wasn’t disregarding what you said, I was saying you’re wrong.

BeoErgon.9107:

Now, is the lack of dream/nightmare because his tree does not have such? Or it is because his pod travelled far from the tree before Malyck was mature enough to enter the dream?
We can’t say.
Malyck talks about a feelign of distance and a loss. The distance might be his tree. But the loss? Can’t it be because he is missing something like the dream?

True, we cannot say why he doesn’t have a dream – but it should be noted that the Dream is not unique to sylvari, so one shouldn’t automatically believe that all sylvari are meant to be part of the Dream.

I took his comment of distance and loss about him not knowing his own origins (his tree). He figures out his tree’s location based on the river and the fact that his pod must have floated down it.

BeoErgon.9107:

About neutrality : he is rescued by the player when the nightmare court was assaulting his friends. Of course he would side with him! But when the player tries to explain the difference between the dream and the nightmare, Malyck answers :

Player (about the dream/nightmare) : The two concepts share origins, but ours come from the Dream. Theirs spawn from the Nightmare
Malyck: I do not wholly understand the difference, but I see that it means a great deal to you.
Later he goes with the player because “You’ve been kind, while those courtiers bring suffering. So I can agree”
As I said, he sides with the player because he was nice to him while the nightmare court chased his friends (and during many dialogues, he finds them to be mad :

Malyck:The Knight of Embers is a fool. Whatever this “nightmare” is, it led her to obsession and madness. Is your “Dream” the same?
<Character Name>:No. The Dream is a vision of hope and a feeling of purpose. It guides us toward the light, not into evil.
Malyck :I wish I could say that I understood the difference, but I don’t.

Again : he does not know the difference. The are the same for him.
For me it means Malyck is neutral in the dream/nightmare fight. He sides with the player for some reasons, but not because it is his nature to side with the dream faction.

Philosophically, he is indeed neutral. But his actions speak different than his words. He acts far more like someone of the Dream, rather than someone of Nightmare. As they say – actions speak far louder than words.

BeoErgon.9107:

About the lab discussion, it is a matter of feelings. For me anything happening in an Asuran lab can not be taken as ‘natural’. Asura tend to try to combine impossible things and defy the usual laws of ‘nature’.

This again is a point of view.

I never said it was natural. I said that it is possible. And seeing how it is not possible for a sylvari to be corrupted, as stated to us by a developer in that when corruption touches a sylvari, said sylvari die, then they cannot be the same. It would require altering the sylvari – changing whatever it is that allows them to be “immune” to corruption – in order to corrupt a sylvari. But all the Inquest had done was instill dragon corruption on individuals (both minions and not).

The dragons seem like they’ve just fallen totally off anets agenda. Right now its scarlett, scarlett and a touch of scarlett. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that through the year theres actually been massive staff changes behind the scenes and no-one has any idea what the the plan originally was.

@Konig Des Todes.2086

Well, it seems you don’t see my point. All ‘normal’ sylvari know about their past before being born from their pod thanks to the dream and the accumulated experiences of their predecessors.
Malyck does not know where he comes from and nothign about his own(he knows nothing prior to getting out of his pod). Call it amnesia, call it anything else. But the fact is that he knows nothign about his past prior to awakening. Huge plot twist placeholder here.

I disagree about the other things, but it is a matter of point of view, no use of arguing for years.

Well… Malyck ‘amnesia’ is also a matter of point of view But I so wish to see him return later in the history to know what he found when returning ‘home’. This is one part of GW2 history that keeps me interested and wanting to see more.

Wait… wait… so you knew everything (your previous life, your mother, your time in her womb, etc.) prior to getting born, right? And the rest of humanity are all suffering from an early amnesia for not remembering anything from the birth trauma and the preceding events and months, hmm?

Malyck’s tree isn’t connected to the Dream of Dreams, so she couldn’t impart Malyck with any pre-birth knowledge of herself and the world, unlike the Pale Tree. Malyck’s a fully-grown, magical newborn, plain and simple.