Guild Wars 2

Why must you jump to that conclusion?
It’s like ‘Omg you removed MF from our equipment, what’s next? Power?’

Let me ask you pho, how often did you do F/U?
How often did you do the other two paths?

rfdarko.4639:

Please, please devs, read and post in the dungeon subforum once in a while.

Yes please. I miss the old times when Robert Hrouda used to come and talk to us.

I like change in fact I love that we are getting new dungeon content but if it comes on the expense of removing old content that used to work fine and is now replaced because of one bug then it is not fine.[/quote]

Well I see your point. It would have been nice if they fixed it. I just had to throw the game some support because people are being so kitten the designers for no reason. its one path that isn’t really any less or more fun then the others in that dungeon and I don’t think people will really miss it when its gone. maybe some but personally for me its been misery. many of my guild members want to go through and when we get there if something goes wrong its impossible with these groups. hours of determination should account for something but with that path there is nothing to learn from trying to stick it out. one try then done. so I agree that it would have been nice if they had fixed it for some but this makes me just as happy. I am sorry it doesn’t for you.

Evans.6347:

Why must you jump to that conclusion?
It’s like ‘Omg you removed MF from our equipment, what’s next? Power?’

Let me ask you pho, how often did you do F/U?
How often did you do the other two paths?

no, its not the same as mf. mf has no effect on the dmg out put/ dmg being dealt to the player.

and for every f/f, u/u I do a f/u. because when i am doing a dungeon run with my guild/friends. we do them in order. except for ac because not many of my guild need armor/token from ac. the dungeon i do the least are the stories. all im saying is they could have easily added another TA path, instead of replacing one.

It is good to see that Arenanet is doing what thy announced earlier. The Living World is changing dungeons too. Many players did not believe that this promise would be kept. I like blowing up dungeons in response to things happen in the Living World..

The only mistake I can find is the fact that only one path is infected/taken over by Scarlet. The girl should take over the whole dungeon. But there was not enough time to develop three new paths.

rfdarko.4639:

I love that his reason for removing this path is that it’s one of the “least run” dungeons.

CoF p1 is one of the most run dungeons, but it is absolutely awful. An explorable (read: challenging, end game, intended for coordinated groups) dungeon that takes 10 minutes to complete with 5 necros in blue gear is much worse than a tricky path with some interesting mechanics and puzzle elements but slightly borked final boss. The number of people running is a horrible metric of dungeon quality. It just tells you which are the most farmable/exploitable.

This ^

If “most run” metrics are so meaningful, maybe it’s time to recover some past features, like mountain climbing on CM or door jumping on CoF2.
Even better, some annoying path like SE2 could be reworked to some kind of endless squishy champion spawn, like an instanced and neverending Aetherblade invasion. That would be really popular.

The new path might be better than the old one and become an overall game improvement, that’s something I’m not going to deny until I experience it. There’s however an obvious correlation between popularity and reward that can’t be ignored when replacing content.

Metrics from the latest LS patches would suggest that Scarlet Invasions are much more fun than, for example, SAB, and while still true for a lot of people, it’s not a valid measure when one offers insane amounts of loot and the other just demands quite high time investment and even gold in order to get a skin.

If content is going to be improved, removed or replaced based on metrics, it would be wise to adjust rewards to a fair basis before.

F/U was a nightmare – other than laughing with guildies when they died to spouts, that path was not fun AT ALL – especially with the bugged final encounter. I’m glad it is going the way of the dodo…

So let me get this straight. They’re removing sylvari related lore from a sylvari related dungeon with sylvari related aesthetics and they’re replacing them with more of Scarlet’s minions!? And their reasoning is, “meh, we just felt like it”!? And the lore behind all this isn’t even presented IN THE GAME!? Just when I thought the Living Story couldn’t possible get any worse…

I’ve got to be honest with you…this is pretty weak, even for a company who considers pressing F 150 times to be “content”.

Lord Kuru.3685:

So even the permanent content in this game is temporary.

Everything is temporary. GW2 itself. You. The only permanent thing and the one exception in the universe is me. You can’t prove otherwise, so it must be true.

Ok, and taxation of course.

Why delete it at all?

Why could they not add it as a 4th path?

Would that really be to much to ask?

If they had give 2 weeks notice that path would have been played a lot in the last 2 weeks, as one final hooray…

Yet another awesome, fantastic decision by Anet…

Looks like they are giving us new permanent content but deleting other permanent content to make room…

Did this path in the past, liked the lore, even though I ran with a pug and it took forever.

Replacing content instead of just adding new content and fixing the existing one is a fairly poor decision. Honestly, your living story has become more of a game breaker than it is an argument to play anyway…

Expand the game, don’t keep up the status quo by just taking as much stuff out as you add.

Am starting to view the Living Story in the same light people used to view SWG’s NGE.

Anet, you did not understand what players want.
Content addition, not content replacement.
TAFU was fine except final boss. Or a better reward to compensate the final encounter.
But no, just destroy TAFU, the easy way. The way that goes against player will.

Confused as to why the Devs felt 2 paths of explore were fitting with the LS but last one wasnt?

Ok great let the living story change the world, but dont take away content from us. Doesnt seem the right way to go about change.

I praise ANETs idea and goal of a living world but please go about it in a way that will expand our world not manipulate it.

PS: the whole oh we could blow up a dungeon and replace it worries me.. I hope you dont decide to go down that path! Blow up some random PVE town or something and replace it with a dungeon but please not our limited set of dungeons to make room for one more

Having said that, the new path looks lovely looking forward to it

Lord Kuru.3685:

What they should have done to alleviate this issue was to create “Dungeon of the Month,” where each month, one deleted dungeon is made available for that month.

That way, there isn’t so much content that the playerbase is spread too thin, and yet deleted content can still be explored (especially by newer players).

That is a great idea. I would prefer it even for Molten Alliance and Aetherblade Retreat instead of having to rely on the rng gods of fractals.

Kitten, where is Mr. Johanson, I need to talk with him about that LS stuff…

Btw, haven’t even touched your minds that the reason why some paths are underplayed is because every single path in the game except Arah 1,2,4 and AC reawards always 1g?

If tafu was so long/hard, bump it to 2/3g.
Boom, now it’s worth the challenge and the time.
Same thing for Cm, SE p2, Cof P3 or Honor p2-3.

I’m baffled that after 2 months we are still at “everything 1 g except this this and this one” stage. I was baffled when it where implemented, letalone if it hasn’t been fixed after 2 months.

Honestly, I approve of these sorts of changes. While I enjoyed F/U I like what the substance of the update says more than anything. it says anet is not afriad to work in broad strokes, and that we won’t be stuck with literally the same game in two or three years.

I’d be kitten ed if stuff were just being removed, but that’s not what’s happenning, something is being replaced. I didn’t hear anyone complain when the old spawns and stretches of nothingness were replaced in southsun. Why is this different? Because it was a dungeon that some of you had “on farm”?

The more time spent actively playing and figuring out new content and the less spent doing the same thing over and over the better.

I say blow up lion’s arch and replace it with an explorable zone, let kralk finish corrupting the rest of known ascalon, or let anything be radically destroyed or changed as long as its replaced with something new and interesting to do.

AndrewSX.3794:

Btw, haven’t even touched your minds that the reason why some paths are underplayed is because every single path in the game except Arah 1,2,4 and AC reawards always 1g?

If tafu was so long/hard, bump it to 2/3g.
Boom, now it’s worth the challenge and the time.
Same thing for Cm, SE p2, Cof P3 or Honor p2-3.

I’m baffled that after 2 months we are still at “everything 1 g except this this and this one” stage. I was baffled when it where implemented, letalone if it hasn’t been fixed after 2 months.

Metrics, man. You need to learn to read them and draw conclusions.

There is always weird design choices that bring me back to these forums lol.

I understand removing the original content of a dungeon if you’re not happy with it, but now we have two 45’s (I think?) and an 80 path, which has terrible synergy. I am not even going to pretend there was often 45’s running TA f/u but now they don’t even have the option I would imagine, which is odd. I saw Leif’s post and I still can’t fully justify coming to that decision in their shoes. Now it seems kind of odd IMO, until they continue the revamp.

Also from the preview, I do fear that the dungeon missed its chance to tell a story, but we will see in a bit. Worst case scenario: Anyone who hasn’t done that part of Living Story has no idea why the Lionguard is there and we have no idea of Zhaitan’s current state of affairs while this dungeon is going on, which at 80 one would suspect Zhaitan to be mentioned story wise as that is when things unfold in Orr.

All this drama is so utterly mindbloggling, almost even amusing, to read. Mostly because:

1. We don’t know WHY this permanent modification takes place. How about we are sensible about it, play the actual content to see how it affects the story and only THEN decide what we think of it?

2. Finally ArenaNet makes permanent modifications to the existing gameworld. I find it puzzling to say the least how people seem to think that this should only add content to the existing world. I think it’s utterly cool that content is indeed drastically modified, resulting in the loss/gain of things in the existing world, to reflect a conflict in the storyline being fleshed out.

For example: If a permant modification was made where a meteor strikes the surface of Tyria next to a dungeon, say AC, this could mean the dungeon would be completely/partially destroyed or dramatically altered. Paths would be lost, changed or added altogether meaning newer players can’t do it anymore. Is this a bad thing? Imo it isn’t. People have been screaming their heads off for permanent content for months and now they get it, they’re already complaining again before even having tried it. From a lore point of view there’s a million ways in which the F/U path could be removed (an attack by Scarlet’s forces on the TA causes it to collapse just to name one).

So I’ll reserve my criticism, if any at all will prove to be applicable, until such a time that I’ve been able to play the new dungeon path. More people should do the same: Respond AFTER you’ve experienced content.

Well if they removed TA F/U then let’s whine more about Arah P4 so they remove it too, or even better the entire dungeon!

Evans.6347:

My god, people here can throw some impressive hissy fits.

Oh please, I’m willing to bet that few of the vocal complainers here consistently ran F/U. TA is farmed very intensively, but almost never that horrid path because it just isn’t worth it.

But it’s the principle right? They could have fixed it.
But they didn’t. Instead we get a new, challenging path, with potentially better rewards. And that is a far better deal. So suck it up. Must everything always be a plan to ruin the game?

Pfsh, in a couple of days the drama is going to peter out and things will return to normal, as it always does. I’m even convinced it’ll become the favourite dungeon of at least a portion of the heavy complainers.

… I just can’t grasp these reaction. Is anyone here really going to state, with a straight face, that they only logged in any more to do the wonderful F/U path, which was all of the good that was left in the game?

Yes, why make a game great, let’s just let it fester in mediocrity. Is that really what you want? Because I’m tired of squandered potential in this game.

This game is clearly a trainwreck whose appeal will only stay with the most casuals.

LeifChappelle.4069:

Hey everyone. I know there’s some folks upset by the decision to make this new level 80 path in Twilight Arbor take the place of the Forward Up path. I hear the complaints directed toward that fact. That said, there’s several reasons why we came to the conclusion we did.

From a lore perspective, the story of Twilight Arbor repeatable is a lot like a “what if?” situation. Who gets to the Nightmare Tree first? Scarlet is now present in the arbor, and that presence has a very tangible effect on how the Nightmare Court can pull off their race to the tree. Because of that presence, the possibilities are narrowed, and Fyonna will not be able to make it to the tree in time.

From a design standpoint, we want the Living World updates to change and have an impact on the world. Earlier in the year, Colin gave the example of blowing up a dungeon and replacing it. This is very much that example in action. Because the explorable paths of Twilight Arbor were very similar from a content perspective, we made the decision to create a new path to revitalize one of the existing ones. Forward Up was one of the least played dungeon paths in the game, and was the best candidate for doing something like this.

I know my explanation won’t make everyone happy, but I hope it at least gives you some insight into the decision we made. Everyone on the team is really proud of how the new path has come together, so I’m hoping you give it a try on Tuesday and let us know what you think.

Ok, so you explained why you chose this path to be removed… But you forgot to explain why you even consider removing any of the paths?!

One more thing. People aren’t playing dungeons for fun anymore! They play them ONLY because of the rewards. And it’s a rewards design flaw that people didn’t play that path.

so, when Scarlet dies/goes away next year, this path will be redone again? gj

wizzy.6871:

so, when Scarlet dies/goes away next year, this path will be redone again? gj

The frightening prospect is Scarlet never will die/go away.

Polluxor.5970:

Since all the 3 paths were separate versions of the story, there is absolutely no reason lore-wise to remove one of them.

But that might be one of the issues they have discovered.
As far as I know TA Explorable is the only dungeon which have 3 patch where only one can actually happen at the same time.
All other dungeon paths can all happen independent of each other, but the TA only ONE can happen due to how they are built, and maybe they have decided to start fixing that?

First nemesis: An undead elder dragon, bringing the world to the brink of extiction, flooding it with undead after bringing Orr back from the deeps of the see.
Second nemesis: A hyperactive girl, that acts like a cheap copy of Tiny Tina…

Leif, I mean no disrespect, but I find those reasons to be kitten. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the path besides the final encounter. The fix itself has been pointed out time and time again throughout the year by the community at large.

What I find amusing is that the encounter was fine until a patch around halfway through the year in which he was buffed, and since then no one has touched him. You could have just rolled back the changes!

I don’t think removing content which has been part of the game since release is the right way to go, no matter what reasons you might have for it.

This also sets a precedent for things to come. A lot of us get the feeling that many of the unpopular paths are going to be completely removed from the game instead of just improving them to make them more appealing.

I’d run CoF 3 if the rewards were decent, same with HoTW 2 and 3. While the paths may be short, their final encounters are bosses which are extremely tank, and do insane amounts of damage. You can’t expect players to enjoy content like that. Either the boss is tank and does mediocre damage, or he does insane damage but is not so tanky, you can’t have both…

lordkrall.7241:

Polluxor.5970:

Since all the 3 paths were separate versions of the story, there is absolutely no reason lore-wise to remove one of them.

But that might be one of the issues they have discovered.
As far as I know TA Explorable is the only dungeon which have 3 patch where only one can actually happen at the same time.
All other dungeon paths can all happen independent of each other, but the TA only ONE can happen due to how they are built, and maybe they have decided to start fixing that?

So why not fix it with something that appropriately thematic? Whey inject Scarlet into yet another area of the game where her presence is not required?

Yeah the issue with this is there’s no real justification for removing TA F/U in particular. I mean, if we ignore the bugged final boss it’s really no more or less fun/challenging/exciting than any of the other TA paths, in fact I’d argue it has the best boss in the whole dungeon (Vevina). And there are certainly “worse” and more aggravating dungeon paths in the game. SE path 2 or HotW 2/3, even Arah 4, are much more out of line with the other paths in those particular dungeons than F/U is. Basically what I’m saying is if F/U deserves to be removed the same could be said for the majority of the dungeons in the game.

It just seems to me like they’re removing it because it fulfills their need for the LS to change the game world in a permanent or meaningful way; a bullet point on a press release. It is completely arbitrary, and F/U only ended on the chopping block as a matter of convenience.

C’mon guys… this is living world at its best,
Is your street (irl) exacly the same it was when you were born?
I bet for 80% of the ppl it isnt, things change, sometimes permanently,
and this is the goal of the dev team with guild wars 2,
and this is what makes guildwars 2 one of the best mmorpg’s that ever existed.

Yes, with content change/replacement, some ppl might get a bit upset
depending on their feelings with said content,
but there will never be a solution that pleases everybody.

I like this changing factor in the ingame world, renewing stuff and making new interesting points all over the map, instead of just expanding the map and leaving old content to be behind and forgotten, but that’s just my oppinion.

Evans.6347:

But it’s the principle right? They could have fixed it.

Yes. Precisely. They could have fixed it easily, but they didn’t want to admit there was a bug at all (on they themselves introduced when they tried to “balance” the path before) so they just removed it. Problem solved. Sort of.

Bugs should be fixed, not handwaved away by removing parts of the game – because if we start to do that, we’ll end up removing almost everything.

Amok.5630:

C’mon guys… this is living world at its best,
Is your street (irl) exacly the same it was when you were born?

Somehow i don’t remember any case when a whole street got replaced by a new one simply because the first one needed few holes filled in one place.

Astralporing.1957:

Somehow i don’t remember any case when a whole street got replaced by a new one simply because the first one needed few holes filled in one place.

Really? 50% of my town would b irecognizable for someone who lived here 40 years ago…
And thats exacly what happens in streets, after the tar exceeds his lifetime, usually it has a lot of holes etc, and its replaced with new one that makes ppl able to drive on that road jsut like they did the first time, wich is exacly the goal of living world, making ppl go to the places they have went many months ago and give them back the feeling they had when they first roamed it, sometimes with jsut some changes or tweaks, other times with new interesting content to represent the evolution of time/war/weather etc, over some place.

If you’re not compftable with the roads analogy, think of cities expanding, taking forests down to build villages and to populate areas or the other way around, taking old buildings down to build gardens etc, dont get stuck on the street analogy :)

I like the street analogy.
Here are three streets, but one has way too many obstacles, we could just remove.
Scrap that we get rid of that street and make a tunnel…

Amok.5630:

And thats exacly what happens in streets, after the tar exceeds his lifetime, usually it has a lot of holes etc, and its replaced with new one that makes ppl able to drive on that road jsut like they did the first time

That is still the same road. Nobody in their right mind would “fix” the holes problem by removing the old road and making a different one leading in a different direction. Which is exactly the situation we got here.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

I like the street analogy.
Here are three streets, but one has way too many obstacles, we could just remove.
Scrap that we get rid of that street and make a tunnel…

Yes that’s what happens in medium/heavilly crowded cities.

Amok.5630:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

I like the street analogy.
Here are three streets, but one has way too many obstacles, we could just remove.
Scrap that we get rid of that street and make a tunnel…

Yes that’s what happens in medium/heavilly crowded cities.

If there is a lot of traffic it would make sense. But honestly, TA F/U was not one of the most frequented roads.
The problem was not the traffic, it was the roadblocks. Btw, you build an additional road to spread the traffic, before you dig a tunnel… ^^

It’s more like they blew up a city park and replaced it with a big industrial complex, at least from looking at the trailer.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Amok.5630:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

I like the street analogy.
Here are three streets, but one has way too many obstacles, we could just remove.
Scrap that we get rid of that street and make a tunnel…

Yes that’s what happens in medium/heavilly crowded cities.

If there is a lot of traffic it would make sense. But honestly, TA F/U was not one of the most frequented roads.
The problem was not the traffic, it was the roadblocks. Btw, you build an additional road to spread the traffic, before you dig a tunnel… ^^

I never said you would go straight for the tunnel did I?
I think my point has been made right on my first post,
i’m not gonna keep arguing over analogy details, if you don’t want to understand my point of view there is no point in discussing analogies all day.

I understand your point of view, but sometimes things change drastically,
thats life, and in this case, a living world.

I like content being replaced sometimes, i can understand why many ppl might get upset by it, but, as i said before, you will never please anyone.

HiddenNick.7206:

One more thing. People aren’t playing dungeons for fun anymore! They play them ONLY because of the rewards. And it’s a rewards design flaw that people didn’t play that path.

Eh, speak for yourself? My friends/guildies and me play dungeons for fun. Actually, it’s the only thing keeping some of us in the game.

rfdarko.4639:

It’s more like they blew up a city park and replaced it with a big industrial complex, at least from looking at the trailer.

xD true lol, its completelly different, but i bet the new path will hav many interesting features taht will differentiate it from the rest of the paths, and give a complete new life to TA :)

darkace.8925:

So why not fix it with something that appropriately thematic? Whey inject Scarlet into yet another area of the game where her presence is not required?

Have you played the new Path?

lordkrall.7241:

darkace.8925:

So why not fix it with something that appropriately thematic? Whey inject Scarlet into yet another area of the game where her presence is not required?

Have you played the new Path?

Do I need to play it to know that what was once a sylvari/Nightmare Court-themed dungeon path has been replaced by something with Aetherblade Pirates?

Yarrrrrr…

My 4 year old nephew stopped liking pirates when he was 3. Could we get some real nemesis please… All those left over elder dragons look terribly bored.

darkace.8925:

Do I need to play it to know that what was once a sylvari/Nightmare Court-themed dungeon path has been replaced by something with Aetherblade Pirates?

Yes. Because you have no clue about how they have handled it.
For all we know all the lore and such from the former path is in there.

Instead of simply complaining, why don’t we do something active?
Put a sign here and try toghether to maintain up the path FW/UP!

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/twilight/SAVE-F-U-path-of-TA-last-minute-petition/first#post2946018

These forums crack me up.

First it’s complaining about F/U.
Now F/U is magically everyone’s favorite path.

Please, no one ever runs F/U.

Cue all those who say how rad F/U is and how they run it all the time…

Lasagne, people are saying they dont agree with the loss of content in favor of new.
Ok F/U isnt popular but I think the feeling is people dont want to loose content in the future in order to have new additions.
This is my opinion and the feeling ive gotten from reading alot of the forum postings today