Guild Wars 2

I Never understanded these Leet people its like they don’t care about anything or anyone.

I Personaly realy REALY like to help new players etc when im helping 1-2 new player and we talk etc it just creates a good atmosphere while playing.

also the feel that you are the unbitable experienced OP guy in the group :P

meh I just love helping.

Help people so when you need it there will be people that gladly will help

Dagraan.2854:

Lostwingman.5034:

Rezzet.3614:

by the gods every single party i go as soon some kid is downed he rage quits if not someone else requests a kick

or worse if someone asks somethign as simple as Who’s gonna tank the fire eles on the ooze part he gets kicked cuz to the others he’s a “noob”

really people what is wrong with you you want everything handed to you without putting effort nor learning nor letting others learn about the content?

Those aren’t elitists, those are spoiled children.
Learn the difference, it could save your dungeon raid.

is there really a difference between the two?

No, not really. Some of the above replies prove this out too.

@Zoltreez.
You personally love helping new players. Other players don’t.
I do it if I have time – but I rarely do. After all I’m playing a game for MY enjoyment – and so is everybody else.
I’m not here to do a job.

Harper.4173:

@Zoltreez.
You personally love helping new players. Other players don’t.
I do it if I have time – but I rarely do. After all I’m playing a game for MY enjoyment – and so is everybody else.
I’m not here to do a job.

I agree with that but that doesen’t mean they need to be Elitist Jerks who basically don’t let players enjoy the content.

Harper.4173:

@Zoltreez.
You personally love helping new players. Other players don’t.
I do it if I have time – but I rarely do. After all I’m playing a game for MY enjoyment – and so is everybody else.
I’m not here to do a job.

I’ve found, helping the community complete an event, increases everyone’s enjoyment. No, I don’t expect everyone to think this way. But, when you have a group of people with an alike mindset, the community thrives because of it.

This is why certain servers have a great reputation and others not so much. You get back what you give. And sometimes, you get a lot more because people recognize you for giving that extra effort to help others.

Just something to consider.

Dungeons are interesting in that they so clearly show who has leadership abilites and who just think they do.

Real leaders will explain the dungeon to new players, help people who struggle, not leave others behind and bolster the confidence of the group when things go sour.

Those who just think they are leaders will explain things badly, complain and be condescending, not let an error go uncommented and create a negative atmosphere when things go sour.

Dungeons seem to bring out the worst in people. And sometimes the best.

I’ll just say that most of these ‘elitists’ are not really that ‘elite’ when it comes to GW2 content. I personally hate dungeons in this game, they are riddled with exploits, so no matter if you go on dulfy and youtube and learn the content, when you actually enter the dungeon, it’s a different tactic all together, it’s stack on this glitchy rock/branch/cliff and range the boss.

This is where fake elitists come in, where the extent of their knowledge in dungeons lies in knowing all the best exploit rocks, yet their reaction time, damage, support, knowledge of their class and intelligence are kitten. They are also like how ‘ilr’ detailed them “People who rage quit that fast and/or just insta-kick other PuGs for superficial reasons… aren’t elitists. They’re just inexperienced PuG’ers themselves trying to get better people to carry them.”

The fake elitist attitude is not entirely ArenaNet’s fault, but exploits i guess is their fault for creating such a buggy environment, and maybe they can improve on this in the future. But with the way dungeons are now, i hate them, and i’m a bit saddened this patch is ‘just’ a dungeon path, but i’m not complaining, i don’t want to be selfish, Super Adventure Box was a patch for me, maybe the next one will be one i like as well.

I have to be honest, I hate when a party just kicks a guy for ignorance. IMHO its just not cool. And yea we can talk about people behaving like jerks, but you guys are just as bad with the labeling and putdowns. I hate that term “Elitist” since when is having a team that knows how to play the game being elite… , in (semi)professional sports its called good sense, heck we knew that back in grade school! If your teamate continually was kicking the basketball, he didn’t know what he was doing and likely shouldn’t be on the court.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with people wanting to play with a competent team. To be fair there is nothing wrong with wanting to play with an incompetent team either but cant you understand that to some people wiping over and over for 3 hours on a mission that should take 30 minutes is not fun? Especially if it’s because 40% of the group has no idea what they are doing, perhaps not only in the dungeon but also that they have horrible builds for Team PvE.

I know I can have some late night fun with guild members, wiping over and over as I teach them a path, but when I just want to (for example) a daily done, I don’t want to be subject to someone’s ineptness for hours. It isn’t fun and truly there is no reason I should have to punish myself for that person.

I personally believe in those cases, that I should leave the group and find a competent group, letting those others do what they please. but my point is that the idea that people that know they have unoptimized builds, know they are undergeared, and know that they play badly, or have absolutely no Idea what they are doing then get mad when people that play optimized, don’t want to play with them is just plain silly. I don’t get angry that the 49ers don’t want to come play football with me. I’m not even close to being on their level. when I want to play I play with people on my level.

You don’t like that the “experienced” or “elite” teams don’t want to run with you? Then get some experience, get some practice in and you can run with those teams. Otherwise stick to teams that are for inexperienced players. There is nothing wrong with wanting to play at a slower, and less optimized pace. But there is nothing wrong with the reverse either.

OP just wants to be carried guys, come on!

That’s what you get for pugging, the only thing they’re good for is running Cof 1&2 paths and nothing NOTHING more. Do not do this content unless with friends and/or guilds.

Amlin.6041:

That’s what you get for pugging, the only thing they’re good for is running Cof 1&2 paths and nothing NOTHING more. Do not do this content unless with friends and/or guilds.

It’s attitudes like that that get you labeled as ‘elitist’ and bring down the community. You should not be forced to join a guild or drag friends into the game to complete content. You should, and can, complete the content with PUGs. Telling anyone otherwise is just wrong.

Now yes, guildies and friends can make things much easier and are oftentimes, though not always, more reliable. But not all that PUG are these terribad players that many love accusing them of being.

Rezzet.3614:

by the gods every single party i go as soon some kid is downed he rage quits if not someone else requests a kick

or worse if someone asks somethign as simple as Who’s gonna tank the fire eles on the ooze part he gets kicked cuz to the others he’s a “noob”

really people what is wrong with you you want everything handed to you without putting effort nor learning nor letting others learn about the content?

www.dulfy.net

SynfulChaot.3169:

Amlin.6041:

That’s what you get for pugging, the only thing they’re good for is running Cof 1&2 paths and nothing NOTHING more. Do not do this content unless with friends and/or guilds.

It’s attitudes like that that get you labeled as ‘elitist’ and bring down the community. You should not be forced to join a guild or drag friends into the game to complete content. You should, and can, complete the content with PUGs. Telling anyone otherwise is just wrong.

Now yes, guildies and friends can make things much easier and are oftentimes, though not always, more reliable. But not all that PUG are these terribad players that many love accusing them of being.

No it’s not elitist to tell people that it’s more fun to do things with people you know and not strangers without any sort of social accountability. But hey if you wish to drag your forehead across gravel, more power to you.

Amlin.6041:

No it’s not elitist to tell people that it’s more fun to do things with people you know and not strangers without any sort of social accountability. But hey if you wish to drag your forehead across gravel, more power to you.

You didn’t say that it’s more fun to do things with friends and guildies. To that I will agree. You said that PUGs are only good for COF, which I find to be patently untrue.

You can complete any dungeon path with a PUG. Will it be as fast, fun, and reliable as a friend/guild run. Doubtful. But perhaps people don’t have friends or a guild that are willing to do the content? PUGs are still an option. I, personally, only completed Arah with PUGs as my guild hated it and wouldn’t go back after a few failed attempts.

You should also remember that sometimes friend or guild groups are one or two members short for a dungeon. Are they then supposed to not do the content? Or should they grab a few randoms. To the guild/friend group, the group is still ‘people you know’. To the randoms who join, the group might as well be a PUG group.

Look, I’m not a completionist and I don’t give two squats about achivements, so for me I understand on certain mindsets I’m unorthodox for an MMO. But if I can’t get a group of people like friends or guildies to run difficult content, then I simply don’t do it or postpone it.

That’s not the case with plenty of people, and I get that, but when people come here and complain about quitters it just makes me laugh. They put themselves into that situation, they decided to take that gamble and lost.

Amlin.6041:

Look, I’m not a completionist and I don’t give two squats about achivements, so for me I understand on certain mindsets I’m unorthodox for an MMO. But if I can’t get a group of people like friends or guildies to run difficult content, then I simply don’t do it or postpone it.

That’s not the case with plenty of people, and I get that, but when people come here and complain about quitters it just makes me laugh. They put themselves into that situation, they decided to take that gamble and lost.

Don’t laugh at those that are kittened by bad members of the community. Commiserate with them. Encourage them not to give up and let the bad players destroy our community.

I understand that friends and guildies are how you play, but that isn’t how everyone plays. Some may want to do content, but either have few friends/guildies that play the game or few that do that kind of content. They should not be gated out of that content due to a few bad eggs in the community and we should not tell them that that is what they should expect and laugh at them when it happens. It does not always happen and not all randoms are bad.

Soon I’m going to read that elitists are responsible for global warming and famines in africa.

i fail to see the correlation between elitist and experienced. when i put experienced only i expect you to have knowledge of the dungeon so we can skip the trial and error process. there’s a difference between that and omfgonly minmaxer zerk specs allowed. i couldn’t care less if you’re a support ranger or a cleric condi necro as long as you’re kiting oozes to the oil.

Myst Dawnbringer.9138:

Here’s the trouble. The reason I stay away from these maddening dungeons. I wish they would just stop putting them in the game. I wish there was some content for the rest of us to do that don’t want to put up with the idiots who love dungeons. As far as I’m concerned 5 man dungeons are the bane of the game.

Your type is the bane of the game, sir. You’re openly saying everyone that likes dungeons is an idiot, which is not true.

Please don’t join groups that say things like “inexperienced” and “all welcome” if you can’t be patient, kind and polite. I never join “experienced only” groups and ruin your gaming experience and I expect the same consideration.

Im always avoiding the Elitist and Leet guilds Players in every MMO 90% of the times they are realy over their head just to say it polite

haviz.1340:

Soon I’m going to read that elitists are responsible for global warming and famines in africa.

Of course. Westerner elitist who only socialise with other westerner elitists and do not give their time to help others. You should volunteer at least 30% of your time every year in building wells in some remote African village to help local people, or if you can’t handle travelling then at least said amount of time should be spent teaching your profession for free to disadvantaged kids of your inner city. What? you have your own life instead? You are a selfish elitist scumbag! Your kind is exactly what is wrong with the world!

DISCLAIMER: I have every respect for ppl that do volunteer to help others under harsh conditions and no intention to belittle their work though above humorous piece. I just do not expect it from everyone and I don’t bash myself for not doing it.

I don’t think you’ll have to worry about elitist later on. I just finished all the AP and really have no reason to go back, the time/reward structure of this dungeon is horrible.

Charak.9761:

I don’t think you’ll have to worry about elitist later on. I just finished all the AP and really have no reason to go back, the time/reward structure of this dungeon is horrible.

And after this month, the rewards for that path are supposedly going back down to ‘normal’ levels. That will guarantee that the path will be run by few. If they’re lucky, it will be more popular than the TA F/U path they removed. My guess is that it will not be. It’ll still most likely become the least run TA path.

SynfulChaot.3169:

And after this month, the rewards for that path are supposedly going back down to ‘normal’ levels. That will guarantee that the path will be run by few. If they’re lucky, it will be more popular than the TA F/U path they removed. My guess is that it will not be. It’ll still most likely become the least run TA path.

After 2 weeks, not month. You can’t blame anet though, they designed story mode dungeon with temporal explorable mode rewards.

haviz.1340:

SynfulChaot.3169:

And after this month, the rewards for that path are supposedly going back down to ‘normal’ levels. That will guarantee that the path will be run by few. If they’re lucky, it will be more popular than the TA F/U path they removed. My guess is that it will not be. It’ll still most likely become the least run TA path.

After 2 weeks, not month. You can’t blame anet though, they designed story mode dungeon with temporal explorable mode rewards.

Are you sure it’s only two weeks? The release notes state that the higher rewards will remain during the duration of the Twilight Assault LS. Typically the first LS each month lasts the entire month, with the second lasting only two weeks.

Let me tell you how some people end up being “elitist” because i recently feel myself moving in that direction.
Ill tell you a few things about myself and dungeons:
I do not like to or want to kick people
I dont care about what classes you are as long as there isn’t multiple of the same class in the group already( This excludes wars or guards)
I dont give a flying kitten about what your APs are
I dont rage at people or quit if we wipe a few times (unless purely special people are being special, then its probably better for me to leave)

now let me tell you why some people may become elitists or act in a elitist fashion.

People dont read descriptions:

When you post a description on LFG for experienced speed run for TA UP path and you get a level 25 who has never ran a dungeon before, its annoying

that can basically be condensed into people who dont read descriptions at all and dont know the minimal level requirements.

You will be amazed at the amount of people who will ignore the description and just waltz right into a party. When that happens a lot in a short period of time (and ohhhh it can ive been experiencing this a lot lately) you just dont even have time to deal with it anymore, kick.

People dont put descriptions like “Experienced only” to be jerks, we do it so we can quickly run a dungeon without wasting a lot of time and having to reexplain everything each run.

People dont listen:

If i find out someone joined and doesnt know the path i have no problem guiding them through the dungeon with the rest of the party IF ONLY THEY LISTEN. There are people who never communicate or respond.

If you cant at least respond and you are messing up? Kick

There are people who constantly die the same way or from something you warned them about.

There are people who just constantly die, no one has time to constantly revive a single person or wipe because people dont want to take advice.

People dont know how to play their class:

I do not have time to teach you how to play your class and to use the dodge button to avoid telegraphed attacks. No one is saying you cant die or make mistakes but if you are constantly that guy who cant play his class it shows, it slows everyone down.

People rage quit: This is because a combination of all the things i mentioned which can simply be avoided in a experienced group since most things should be running smoothly.

I also dont want to spend time telling people how to use WASD to run past mobs in Arah or TA speed runs. if i say stick with me that doesnt mean start running ten seconds after the group takes off and then getting stuck behind, dying, waypointing, and now your stuck back there and cant get to us.

I also have come to realize that Necros dont bring alot of damage or help to the group. This may have just been the last 10 or so necros ive had to group with but i no longer want them in any group i create. I will now just kick any necro that joins after all the necros ive had to experience on LFG.

People who post experienced LFGs are just looking for an smooth quick run for various reasons, whether it be time or the fact that you have run it 41 times.

All of the stuff i mentioned may be fine in regular PUGS but not when someone is trying to speedrun.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Are you sure it’s only two weeks? The release notes state that the higher rewards will remain during the duration of the Twilight Assault LS. Typically the first LS each month lasts the entire month, with the second lasting only two weeks.

If I recall correctly, they said it during the preview. Also, keep in mind that this month will have 3 releases.

haviz.1340:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Are you sure it’s only two weeks? The release notes state that the higher rewards will remain during the duration of the Twilight Assault LS. Typically the first LS each month lasts the entire month, with the second lasting only two weeks.

If I recall correctly, they said it during the preview. Also, keep in mind that this month will have 3 releases.

Strange. I have seen that nowhere. Either way when the rewards fade than so will most of the people that run it.

And where did you hear that there will be three releases this month? I am quite curious.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Strange. I have seen that nowhere. Either way when the rewards fade than so will most of the people that run it.

And where did you hear that there will be three releases this month? I am quite curious.

They are bi-weekly, hence 1st, 15th and 29th October.

I always advertise with an “experience required” message if I’m going to be “elitist.” Unfortunately, this can sometimes force me to kick people on the last boss when they very clearly have no idea what’s going on.

You got it wrong! Being an elitist doesn’t mean I’m not putting any effort in a dungeon run. It’s actually quite the opposite of what you think. Elitists actually spend time learning what’s the most efficient way to do a dungeon.

Take AC path 2 for example, A majority of people love standing right in front of the boss to melee him. Then they get killed instantly. And I did ask people to stay behind my wall or reflection every single time!
It’s the safest and fastest way to kill this boss, but they just don’t read.
I don’t really mind if you are going to melee or not. As long as you don’t die like crazy, I can accept that. I don’t even bother to res the clueless people who go down instantly because what’s the point of saving you if you are going to die as soon as you get up.

When all 4 of you get killed at the very beginning of the fight, I have only 2 options: reset, or solo the boss myself. But if I reset the boss again and again, people are going to rage quit and say it’s a waste of time. So I end up soloing the boss and it takes a real long time. (Yesterday my AC run was just like this again, and it was already the 9th or 10th time I had to solo this.)

At the end, I have to request for experienced players to do a dungeon run every time. It saves everyone a lot of time.

haviz.1340:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Strange. I have seen that nowhere. Either way when the rewards fade than so will most of the people that run it.

And where did you hear that there will be three releases this month? I am quite curious.

They are bi-weekly, hence 1st, 15th and 29th October.

Oh. Right. Silly months with five Tuesdays. Twilight Assault will probably still last the full four weeks is my guess, though.

wow threads like these are really destructive…can someone delete this thread?

Just kick everyone who has less than 5k AP. Smooth, fast runs without rage.

EDEN.2061:

You got it wrong! Being an elitist doesn’t mean I’m not putting any effort in a dungeon run. It’s actually quite the opposite of what you think. Elitists actually spend time learning what’s the most efficient way to do a dungeon.

Take AC path 2 for example, A majority of people love standing right in front of the boss to melee him. Then they get killed instantly. And I did ask people to stay behind my wall or reflection every single time!
It’s the safest and fastest way to kill this boss, but they just don’t read.
I don’t really mind if you are going to melee or not. As long as you don’t die like crazy, I can accept that. I don’t even bother to res the clueless people who go down instantly because what’s the point of saving you if you are going to die as soon as you get up.
—

Have you considered putting the wall right in front of the boss so that people can actually stand right front of him?

—
[/quote]
Have you considered putting the wall right in front of the boss so that people can actually stand right front of him?
[/quote]

That’s exactly what I do every single time. But guess what?
People still keep running around the boss even when my wor is up.
Sometimes they get lucky and the boss doesn’t attack them. But when it does,it’s another instant kill. And some might start yelling path 2 is a waste of time, and the next thing they do is always rage quit.

Fair enough. You just sounded like yet another pvt-range “oh my party died I’m so pro” person (no offense meant). I’m happy that I was wrong.

I think it is funny all the people who are now looking at AP as if it were some kind of benchmark for how good you are at dungeons. I have met players with <1000 AP because they only run dungeons, and I have met people with >5000 AP who have never run one. My high-AP show that I have done a whole lot of Personal Story, Crafting and Jumping Puzzles :P

The elitism over character-level is perhaps a little OTT in some cases. A lvl40 in AC will hold the lvl80s back, sure, but a lvl75 is good enough for CoF IMO :P

Gear Elitism is a little unfair, IMO. I am not a skilled enough player to run full Beserker. My Guardian has Zerker trinkets/weapons, but 3 Knights/3 Valkyrie armour. It lets me take that extra hit I need to make up for my inexperience in dungeons. My build is also DPS oriented (eg RHS, not AH). Most people I have met seem happy with my performance, and that one extra hit has allowed me to save the party from wipes before, but some players only care whether or not I have full Zerker and do not want me in the party.

Class elitism is almost always unfair. Sure, Warriors and Guardians have an almost unfair advantage, and there are many dungeons a Mesmer is extremely useful to have. A lot of hate out there for Necros, but most of the Necros I have played with have been extremely good players. I rarely see a Thief anyways, so I never complain about them. Eles can be useful, and Dungeon Eles tend to be fairly skilled players. Engi and Ranger… yeah, played well they are good, but in my experience most of the players have been pretty bad. You cannot judge on the class, but when you see a Rifle/Turret Engi or a Bear/Bow Ranger who cannot get past the first battle in the dungeon, you can probably take a fair bet the player sucks :P

My experience is that most dungeon ele and Necro are bad. Someone prove me wrong, mostly just the necros tho

ele’s bad as in mostly played by terribad noob?
cause ICE BOW is awesome.(this skill alone earn ele a spot in a few paths)

Ice Bow is good against objects and that’s it. PUG eles also tend to suck at putting up fire fields, and PUGs full stop suck at blasting them for might.

My impression from reading the thread and the OP’s post is that people are annoyed at scrubs who just want to be carried (while they zerk and faceplant every five seconds) and boot people who can’t carry well enough. Actual elitists will just boot you at the start or early on if you show you aren’t experienced (and the lfg having said experienced only) or are using bad gear (if pings are asked for). Or, they’ll just run with their own group.

I also wish people would stop using the word elitist just to describe people they don’t like. Many a time on this forum I’ve argued with someone on this forum and they’ve just pulled out elitist from nowhere. It amuses me as well that good players are so despised in this game, it’s like how wearing braces/glasses is the new “cool”; in GW2, being bad is the new good.

clint.5681:

My experience is that most dungeon ele and Necro are bad. Someone prove me wrong, mostly just the necros tho

I recently completed it with a pug group of 2 ele, 1 war, 1 mes, and 1 ranger. The ranger frequently disconnected but we were able to take on the bosses with only 4 people, and we generally breezed through it. Definitely convinced me of the strength of good eles.

I find that people’s definition of elitists is too narrow, which leads to some confusion when people start arguing about them.

Elitism as a word holds its history in government, being related to those who were selected or chosen, and so the words “elite” and a “election” share a relationship. It is from here that elite had “ism” attached to its end, and it became about the state or practice of being elite, particularly with ruling bodies and government. Elite came to mean “the privileged” or “the wealthy” or “the gifted”, and elitism was being rule by them; a notion which wasn’t popular when the word was invented.

This old world definition is how it came to be applied in games. “Elitism”, or governing by the elite, ultimately meant the exclusion of those who were not elite. From this, we’ve found the term “elitism” applied to places where some select group or club has status that excludes everyone else by direct action. Thus, the most appropriate definition in gaming, as well as the most encompassing definition, is

Elitism (gaming): A group of players with self perceived privilege or skill that emphasize play only with other privileged players.

The primary tool for doing this is exclusion, much as it has been for all “elite” groups in history. This can describe nearly every circumstance of elitism mentioned in this thread, and also brings to light some misconceptions:

#1: The elitist does not have to be good at the game.
#2: The elitist does not have to be right about how they gauge others.
#3: A player who is good is not necessarily an elitist.
#4: A elitist does not have to and can acknowledge that they do not fit their own criteria.
#5: An elitist does not need to want to be an elitist to be an elitist.

That is where a great many misconceptions lie. It’s like this in real life, too. We’ve all seen a great many people who are full of themselves, but can’t make sense of it an have nothing to show for it.

I find that diffusing negative situations in dungeons is easily accomplished with humor. In those rare occasions when someone simply insists on taking the drama llama out for a spin in party chat, a kick, ignore, and replace takes all of 30 seconds and can get you back on track for a successful run.

people should play with other people that play the same way as they do

the only time when there’s conflicts is when people play with other people that don’t play the same way

clint.5681:

My experience is that most dungeon ele and Necro are bad. Someone prove me wrong, mostly just the necros tho

greatsword, hammer, bow

Player Character.9467:

clint.5681:

My experience is that most dungeon ele and Necro are bad. Someone prove me wrong, mostly just the necros tho

greatsword, hammer, bow

Doesnt matter if your constantly dead/behind.

In GW2, the amount of achievement points one had used to mean something but now not so much because whoever does the living story religiously can stack up some serious number of points over a short period of time.

However, elitism is BEST addressed in another MMO game called Tera. In Tera, the number of dungeon completions per dungeon is publicly visible in game for each player. So, you know exactly how experienced your team-mates are. I wish they would do this for GW2, that way elitists can find/band with other elitists and newbies can be with fellow newbies. And if someone (an elitist) was vocal about the dungeon running strategies, then it’s only because they are trying to improve the skill level of the newbies (and perhaps other reasons, lol). However, because some newbies have issues with taking advice let alone following them, elitists eventually get fed up and rage-quit. Elitists are not going to spend hours trying to help newbies learn the ropes.

Lianna.6980:

1st October I first saw in map chat: “LFM WARRIORS ONLY 6+k ACHIEVEMENTS, GEAR CHECK”. The beggining of the end is nigh.

That’s just a warrior thing. It’s a wonder they don’t also post “kitten check”.

I just did a run with 2 guys with 2500 achievement points. At least one of them openly admitted he’d never been in before and couldn’t join other groups because of this. I have never met a more attentive player willing to take on advice and learn and thoroughly enjoyed the run through with them both.

That said, such occasions are rare. In general certain players, and you know who you are, type “yes” or “ok” when asked if they understand the tactics laid out in chat, only to then pay no attention at all and do whatever the hell they like, only to bother watching chat again 3 fails later.

Can I blame people for wanting to weed out inexperienced players? Not really, sometimes time is too short to spend 90 mins on one path. Sometimes though, it’s worth it, like my run tonight… you meet some great new players and have a great time.