Bad Economy
i dont think any one is denying they change and alter drop rates for the purpose of the economy. its happened numerous times already.
drop rates and consumption rates on wood, drop rates on butter, what type of items undead drop, drop rate of precursors has been tweaked various times. Even before it gets in game, designs people have to run reward idea by john smith and some others, he mentions it in his interview, and another Dev mentioned having to run ideas by the economy guys to make sure thier ideas dont blow up the economy.The Tp is only one facet of the economy, but in a game, the devs control most facets. How much items an ascended item cost is also part of the econmists/item guys baliwick. So yeah, if people are discussing the economy, it isnt just about the TP, its also about the worth of their goods and services, and how they can go about obtaining items, through any means.
Completely understood, and very reasonable. You make a very solid point that the TP is really just one facet. There are alternatives. The other means of acquisition have unfortunately fallen into shadow behind the attention garnered by the TP.
How to make these other means more viable is really something that merits discussion. And by this I don’t mean simply increasing drop rates. Rather, alternative methods, should be investigated.
It seems we are finally reaching an agreement here!
I don’t want to see increased drop rates either… but why not making other ways to acquire those Gifts rather than grinding/buying its components.
Zerk is the average Joe build. Don’t pat yourself in the back too hard.
It wouldn’t hurt to limit how long items can stay in the TP or even limit how much can be put up in the TP.
I don’t want drop/gather rates to increase to some insane amount. That would be far worse the current situation. I would agree with Mesket that I wouldn’t want drop rates to go up either. It would just further what some see as a small problem to be a big problem to everyone.
Gifting isn’t a bad idea. Maybe have a weekly gift for logging in during that week have it be something very small like a random dye or material.
A daily gift for those to be encouraged to say actually log on. Again have it be small.
There are the dailies, but those I see more just get you to keep playing within that day.
I still think lifting the amount of items vendor value and have the vendors sell better quality items. You don’t have to make them the exact same strength as crafted items just a little weaker then say a normal crafted version.
I know myself would begin selling a lot more often right to the vendors for going the TP. I am not to say hike up everything to any extreme. I don’t believe in extreme tweeking. I know I am a bit different, but I call it tweeking if it works. Nerf is what I use for something that really ruins the game all together.
I really don’t want to see the game hurt, but just make it a bit friendlier to those not lucky enough to not have to worry about gold. Although, I haven’t had it to bad. I don’t care much honestly for the legendaries. If people want to put their time in great, but I do see people are having issues there. I don’t know how exactly you would go about that.
You can’t make a legendary challenging that is the point! Whatever you do people will find a way around it! Make it pvp cause pvp is challenging right?? NO!!! You’d see entire maps of people standing next to each other w8ing until they get killed then the others rezz them and that will be done over and over and over!
By making it a frigging hard battle you’ll get 95% of the community here on the forums complaining about it being an unreachable goal (because that really is unreachable) Like you have to do all 3 CoE paths and all 4 Arah paths after each other without getting downed once. Sure some will be able to do it but the majority? They will never ever get it.Since they require gold a player can get it through everything! You don’t like dungeons?No problem just do some awesome dynamic events instead! You don’t like wvw? Well you can at least get it through jumping.
As it is now you get gold for everything so it’s possible to get you legendary by doing what you like. But trading is just the best method of getting gold. Stop crying and already accept it it always was and always will be the best method (without making a crapy grind game)Back to topic though i’ve found no clesr argument why this is a bad economy! Players are setting the prices and you have all the freedom you want! Fell like selling an UI dye for 2g? Sure go ahead you don’t have to vendor it you can try your luck. Please people stop commenting the same posts over and over again. The economy isn’t bad and he only really bad thing of legendarys is that they can be sold at the TP other than that they implemented an awesome system that is actually hardly exploitable (compared to other stuff from other games…)
problem is, no one can get any specific thing better by actually not using the tp.
Want a berserker rifle? well you can spend X amount of time and energy crafting it, but you can probbaly get it on the tp for less.
want a lodestone, well you can go hunt elementals, and do specific dynamic events, or a special dungeon, but you probably would have better spent that time in at the tp
the rewards are designed so that everybody gets a lot of stuff they dont need, so they have to go to tp to turn it into things they need. Say for example the overal distribution of an item is decided in player man hours.
They decide X sword drops on average only 100 should drop a day.
in the current system those 100 swords a spread amongst 1 million players, randomly.
in other systems they may put those 100 swords only on specific monsters, thereby increasing the reward rate without increasing the amount of swords in the world.
now people who look for X sword have a sure goal, the designers can design events that make sense for that sword, and people feel gratified having sought and achieved the thing they wanted, the drop rate is a lot better because its not going to 100/million people who may or may not have a need for the item.
So we end up with an economy where the only reliable means to achieve things is generally to use the TP. The most desired items can only reliably be obtained via the TP because drops are essentially randomized. The current economy will by and large feel unrewarding because very little of it actually rewards people with what they are looking for.
So the rewards in the game are only actually rewarding once you turn whatever crap you got into money, to get the things you want. This puts the focus of the game on obtaining money, which incetivizes money generation over all other activities. up till 80 the focus is on exp, which is rewarded for doing various things, exploring, killing big monsters, doing event chains, which is actually decently rewarding for doing adventure game like activities.
however money amassing isnt really why people bought the game. john smith said 10% of people enjoy amassing wealth in games. that means 90% do not. however, the best way to feel a sense of reward is to play with a focus on amassing wealth. This leads to many people being disatisfied with the way the economists choose to reward the goods and services and time of the player.
by and large in this game, the players dont control the economy, the rng controls the economy, or money.
All i keep hearing you say Casear is that you want to be able to sell things to vendors for a higher price.
This makes no sense, because everyone would be getting these benefits and while you would technically have a higher number of gold, relative to everyone else you would still be just as poor.
When you increase the amount of gold players get, you inflate the marker, and all the prices will rise to compensate.
What seems to be the problem here is that you either don’t know how to make money, or don’t play enough to make money.
In one of your first posts, you said you dont want to spend 5hours to make a 5% profit. This shows an inherent lack of understanding or lack of trying. I rarely play the market as i have been busy IRL and just last night i logged in, noticed a decent price difference between buy/sell rates on a popular item, and made about 22s profit for each one ( the cost for this investment was about 1g 50s, which you have)
Running paths 1 and 2 of CoF for example will net you 2-3g within about 25min depending on drops and how fast your group is.
You being poor when plenty of other people are not shows that it is an issue with you and not with the game. And while im at it, the fact that you are poor IRL has nothing to do with the game. If you were rich IRL (assuming no gem>gold) but poor ingame you would still want to change things so they benefit you, thats human nature.
Finally, i am not saying nothing is wrong with the market, things like precursors and t6 mats being heavily controlled are an issue, but stating that the entire economy is bad because YOU cant make enough money to be happy is silly
This makes no sense, because everyone would be getting these benefits and while you would technically have a higher number of gold, relative to everyone else you would still be just as poor.
Not true. The people who made their money off godskull and are manipulating the TP would become progressively less wealthy as their cash hoard’s purchasing power lowered.
Inflation, in case like this one, where everyone is making more due to vendor price buffs, would most certainly even the playing field.
Tyria is a its own world. The Black Lion Trading Company exists in that world and plays the roll it was meant to play. The TP was intentionally designed to be part of the game and, much more than real life, you may choose to live how you like inside Tyria. It’s your world to live in.
Except if I want to get materials by killing relevant mobs instead of going to my “lending class” masters on the TP for them.
Thanks to the 11/15 patch putting me, and many, MANY of my comrades on perma-DR, I don’t have the option to supply my own materials — the option that prevents “wealth gaps” from ever becoming an issue in other games.
I did not give one whit that some of my buddies in wow had hit the gold cap, because I was there to play the game, and if I needed something to play the game, I could go out and kill for it, and get it dependably, and in a time frame where I did NOT have to account for sending great grand-children to college. Here in gw2, however, I am forced to care, because these (kitten)s manipulating the TP are the only source due to DR!
The impact is staggering on my gaming experience: I have not personally logged more than 10 minutes in game in the past week or so. I’ve also noted a considerable drop in in-game activity over the past month as it’s sunk in that ANet is doing zip about the drop issues. Only the “lucky accounts” and the bots remain.
(edited by plasmacutter.2709)
You can’t make a legendary challenging that is the point! Whatever you do people will find a way around it! Make it pvp cause pvp is challenging right?? NO!!! You’d see entire maps of people standing next to each other w8ing until they get killed then the others rezz them and that will be done over and over and over!
I don’t know, everyone has their own definition of what “challenge” means, but you could certainly involve more personal challenge in their acquisition than currently exists, and less material wealth. Making people complete every dungeon path at least once, for example. Or maybe complete a ton of jump puzzles. I don’t know, stuff. Sure people would figure out “cop out” ways of completing all or most of them, like how people use jump puzzles instead of kills to get WvW badges, or use cash money to buy precursors and other ingredients that they could farm for, but it could still involve a lot more player participation than just throwing gold at the TP.
Like you have to do all 3 CoE paths and all 4 Arah paths after each other without getting downed once.
I will say that I hate those sorts of things, like where you have to do a lot of things “flawlessly.” I wouldn’t mind if the goal was to complete each path once without dying, but only if each counted separately, so if you got one, it was cleared, even if you died trying the next you would only have to redo that one until you got it right. Still, if that were the case then you’d just have connected players “playing it safe,” chilling out at the back while the rest of the party did the heavy lifting.
Since they require gold a player can get it through everything! You don’t like dungeons?No problem just do some awesome dynamic events instead! You don’t like wvw? Well you can at least get it through jumping.
But then we’re back to the core argument of this thread, that most gameplay elements reward gold at a pathetic rate compared to market manipulation. Sure, you could “run jumping puzzles” to get enough gold to buy a precursor, it would just take you ten years if you did them every day. If players are meant to be able to earn enough gold to buy high-cost goods on the TP, then either the cost of those goods needs to be way lower, or the rewards of standard activities way higher.
And please stop pushing the fiction that there’s nothing ANet can do to stop people making money off the trading post. They choose to allow that, but there are numerous controls they could use to stop it dead if they felt like it.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
The impact is staggering on my gaming experience: I have not personally logged more than 10 minutes in game in the past week or so. I’ve also noted a considerable drop in in-game activity over the past month as it’s sunk in that ANet is doing zip about the drop issues. Only the “lucky accounts” and the bots remain.
^This right here, though i usually get a couple hours each day… I’ve watched too many people who almost became my farming posse, and too many others leave because the crap they were chasing just kept getting farther away. The economy team needs to quit acting like a RL gov’t agency and get off their laurels and start actually tweaking something… spent too much time here deleting dissertations of gripes comming from the working man who wants to be able to achieve something pretty in a game since he just can’t afford it IRL -.-
(edited by Moderator)
I will be honest. A good economy makes me want to play. WoW had a good economy depending on the server of course.
No. No, no, no. 50g a stack of iron ore is NOT a good economy. Please, don’t even reference that pile of crap, let it die and forget about it.
At least gathered materials have value in WoW. I’ve learned to hate the crafting system in GW2 because it is so heavily reliant on ‘rare’ drops to do basically anything.
You literally cannot craft a piece of gear solely with what you gather. Every piece of gear requires an inscription or insignia, which require copious amounts of rare drops if you’re trying to level a profession. Your mileage may vary, but after 96% map completion (only WvW left) and doing every event I came across in the process I did not have enough drop items to level even one craft without having to supplement materials through the TP. Meanwhile, I had stacks upon stacks of basically useless and relatively worthless ore and wood. (And, no, selling them for <10c each did not even remotely offset the cost.)
I finally had to put a halt to leveling crafting because it was costing 50s in drop materials to craft an inscription/insignia to make an item worth <1s that lists for 1c above vendor price in the TP. I don’t agree that’s a good system.
About the random drop arguement: i guess you can see it from 2 sides. The first would be that players can actively choose what to farm for and control in a way what they need (which is partly implemented, by t6 mat farming or dungeon farming for cores) but on the other side that would cause the game to feel more grindish.
That’s what they really don’t want. And please stop saying doing dungeons is a grind. They came up with new mechanics fir dungeons that make them different and unique. It’s far superior than the actual grind i.e. kill that monster over and over and over again.
As for the economy: how is a system that is completely player driven bad?? People get rich because they know what they are doing. If you want them to stop being rich you have to either slow the market down (time delays, being able to sell 20 at max,…) which would just be frigging stupid even for the casaul or you could tax the rich and get them completely out of the game.
I just don’t see how the current system is as bad as you claim… and i still have to hear a good reason that persuades me. In addition i can just say it again:
In an economy that supports the freedom of the traders, the sellers and the buyers, there will always be people who get richer than others! That is a given!
@Ohoni i strongly disagree with you. Making money is actually easy. Every casual can at least make 3g per day (~3h of gameplay) which is the absolute minimum.
It’s natural that the market yields more income. Players who buy and sell items in great proportions will always have a better profit. That’s undenyable. Take GW1 for example. Of course you could make a SF assa and either farm bones, feathers, ectos or obbsi shards but the really really rich people were those that bought and sold limited minipets or dyes or ectos. They bought them all off for 7p ea and resold them for 9p ea. They made so much more gold than everyone else it was not funny.
The only difference to GW2 is that you now have a forum and a tp that displays prices and makes people more aware of the issue with power trading. But you can’t stop it. The only way to do so is to limit everyone equally… and that certainly is not s good thing.
Just to put a little perspective on things, let’s take a look at actual pricing.
Take Charged Lodestones, which are one of the currently highest priced items required for many of “exclusive” items available. They’re currently being priced between 3.25 and 3.5g a piece. The Gifts that use them require 100 lodestones.
Now also take into account many of the posts around that offer guides to earning 3-6g per hour (there are some claiming as high as 10g) but lets say 3.5g per hour for the sake of this discussion as a reasonable rate.
Simple math, that’s one lodestone an hour. Or 100 hours for that portion of the Gift. Figure a conservative rate of 2 hours a day, that’s 50 days to complete. Let’s say 2 months to be fair.
Other Tier 6 materials are a fraction of this cost. For example ectos which can be had for < 40s, or Powerful Vial of Blood @ ~30s. Or roughly ~10 mats an hour.
So, I put the question out to those arguing that the grind to get materials is too excessive than the current rate as discussed above – What then is a “fair” rate?
Quantify it. And please, offer a better explanation than, “more because it’s too slow now”. Then we would at least have some actual basis for discussion.
(edited by Mourningcry.9428)
Lodestone are a good exemple because you can actually farm them for more than 1 h 30 straight without getting even a single drop. Putting something in a game needed in 100 that you cannot consistently even get in less than 1 hour is flawed on a game design standpoint, especially in a game like GW2. You should always get more than one per hour by farming the monsters that supposedly drop them.
Why ? Well, because killing the same kitten monsters for hours without getting a single drop really kitten the hell out of me.
(edited by Stanelis.4765)
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Here’s a simple thought. What if it turns out that the best economic model for MMO success is an highly inflationary one?
It’s not a simple thought, in fact it is a highly complex issue that would involve a whole new load of thought, and game design.
Consider thus as just one example:
Gold purchasing is quite legal and even subtly encouraged in GW2 providing it is done via the Black Lion Trading post by purchasing and then selling gems.
Now on the assumption inflation here took off, the current exchange rate would rise sharply, or to put it another instead of obtaining an average of around 1.20/1.40 per hundred gems you would get significantly more.
However the fungible value of gold would fall in game per se.
Now given this criteria would the two exchange rates generally match with first life currency……….in other words would say $10 maintain its fungible value in game when converted to gold.
In theory it should, in practice it may not, and for some initial proof of that argument I would refer you to what is called “The Big Mac Index”
http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/01/daily-chart-3
Again in theory purchasing power parity within an efficient market may prevail. But as you can now see it does not as markets are not always efficient.
From Areanets viewpoint this actually might be quite intriguing.
Would increased initial $/£/€ revenue from gems purchasing gold be financially attractive on the basis that they would obtain greater revenue, but eventually people would stop buying gems, thus leading to the necessity of a game redesign to reset everything (for that read “expansion” aka WoW) where everything obtained in the previous expansion is devalued, thus starting again from a new base…….
Or is it better to try to maintain a stable economy
My bet is on the latter here, but in a subscription game (WoW Rift etc) I will offer a provisional opinion inflation is highly desirable as it keeps people playing, buying expansions, and gold purchasing is not factored into the games economic design in terms of profitability for the game designer.
Chuckle……..I always used to laugh so hard at WoW kids who kept saying a games economic design had no relationship to real life economies, they were so wrong it was truly funny
Lodestone are a good exemple because you can actually farm them for more than 1 h 30 straight without getting even a single drop. Putting something in a game needed in 100 that you cannot consistently even get in less than 1 hour is flawed on a game design standpoint, especially in a game like GW2. You should always get more than one per hour by farming the monsters that supposedly drop them.
Why ? Well, because killing the same kitten monsters for hours without getting a single drop really kitten the hell out of me.
So you say that you lodestones are needed, but they are not. I presume you are talking about crafting legendaries, in which case you are going after an item that is purely cosmetic.
You can get full exotic armor from doing dungeons. You can get ascended rings from 20 days of daily fractals(fractal level 10). The backpiece takes another 253 fractal relics maximum. An ascended amulet takes 30 days of dailies or 20 dailies and 1 monthly.
While you can argue that legendary stats will increase in value when they release ascended weapons, speculation would allow us to say that ascended weapons will be easier to get than legendaries and therefore make anything crafted with lodestones cosmetic and not mandatory for maximum stats.
I am just saying there is a major difference between want and need.
(edited by C The Bubbles.1480)
So you say that you lodestones are needed, but they are not. I presume you are talking about crafting legendaries, in which case you are going after an item that is purely cosmetic.
You’re correct when you point out you can get full exotics by doing dungeons and buying with tokens or ascended stuff through fractals. But thing is.. the ultimate goals of this game, the real shinies, the things people want to work towards.. it’s all cosmetic. ANet has equalised things so that everyone can be fairly easily well geared and has instead placed rewards and incentives in looking awesome. But.. they’ve made it where you can really only get this shinies (mainly weapon skins) through making money. It’s not possible to just play the game and get some of the more desirable skins and I believe this is the main issue.
I tried for the first time flipping some stuff the other day.. I did manage to do a bit, but with the time I spent I could have made more running a dungeon. I’m not so good at it and I’m too adverse to risk I think. Also I found it really boring to be standing there waiting for orders to come in so I could sell immediately or monitoring my buy orders.
I just want to play the game and earn/work towards my big goals. That’s all. I can’t help but feel Mr. Smith is too into the whole economics thing that he fails to recognise the perspective of people who aren’t. He asked someone if they’d prefer a bad economy.. well.. I think some of us would rather have hardly anything to do with the economy at all. I think that’s a perfectly valid playstyle but ANet isn’t allowing that. More things to work specifically towards, with challenge of course!, (like lodestones for dungeon tokens and drastically increasing crafting mat drops) would make me one happy camper.
So you say that you lodestones are needed, but they are not. I presume you are talking about crafting legendaries, in which case you are going after an item that is purely cosmetic.
You’re correct when you point out you can get full exotics by doing dungeons and buying with tokens or ascended stuff through fractals. But thing is.. the ultimate goals of this game, the real shinies, the things people want to work towards.. it’s all cosmetic. ANet has equalised things so that everyone can be fairly easily well geared and has instead placed rewards and incentives in looking awesome. But.. they’ve made it where you can really only get this shinies (mainly weapon skins) through making money. It’s not possible to just play the game and get some of the more desirable skins and I believe this is the main issue.
I tried for the first time flipping some stuff the other day.. I did manage to do a bit, but with the time I spent I could have made more running a dungeon. I’m not so good at it and I’m too adverse to risk I think. Also I found it really boring to be standing there waiting for orders to come in so I could sell immediately or monitoring my buy orders.
I just want to play the game and earn/work towards my big goals. That’s all. I can’t help but feel Mr. Smith is too into the whole economics thing that he fails to recognise the perspective of people who aren’t. He asked someone if they’d prefer a bad economy.. well.. I think some of us would rather have hardly anything to do with the economy at all. I think that’s a perfectly valid playstyle but ANet isn’t allowing that. More things to work specifically towards, with challenge of course!, (like lodestones for dungeon tokens and drastically increasing crafting mat drops) would make me one happy camper.
I will also point out that they have the added functionality of filling an achievement, filling a login page medal, and retaining BIS, which no other exotics can do.
Anywho, the quote is mainly in reference to the bolded.
For me it really does detract from the “fun” of the game moreso then adds usefulness. It’s overwhelming. When a feature that seemingly should be there to compliment game play turns out to dictate it instead, imo it needs to be reigned in.
Serenity now~Insanity later
Just to put a little perspective on things, let’s take a look at actual pricing.
Take Charged Lodestones, which are one of the currently highest priced items required for many of “exclusive” items available. They’re currently being priced between 3.25 and 3.5g a piece. The Gifts that use them require 100 lodestones.
Now also take into account many of the posts around that offer guides to earning 3-6g per hour (there are some claiming as high as 10g) but lets say 3.5g per hour for the sake of this discussion as a reasonable rate.
Simple math, that’s one lodestone an hour. Or 100 hours for that portion of the Gift. Figure a conservative rate of 2 hours a day, that’s 50 days to complete. Let’s say 2 months to be fair.
Other Tier 6 materials are a fraction of this cost. For example ectos which can be had for < 40s, or Powerful Vial of Blood @ ~30s. Or roughly ~10 mats an hour.
So, I put the question out to those arguing that the grind to get materials is too excessive than the current rate as discussed above – What then is a “fair” rate?
Quantify it. And please, offer a better explanation than, “more because it’s too slow now”. Then we would at least have some actual basis for discussion.
see thing here, is you are taking it back to money and wealth earned per hour. If you decided you are going to buy lodestones, you basically will be able to get 1 per hour of farming. (for the above average player) now if you take that same player, and tell him to actually hunt lodestones, he will essentially spend 30 minutes trying to create the circumstances that allow them to be farmed, then if he has average luck, he will get 1 per 1.5 hours.
If you want powerful bloods, and you target blood droppers, with their drop rates, you will probably get less powerful bloods than if you stayed at pentinent and shelter. This is the problem when money is the best way to do things, the only viable gameplay style becomes the ones that make the most money.
So now you say, if that is the case, why is it worth less than it takes to hunt? mostly because you get random drops from doing dungeons, so why not do dungeons, well thats because the rate isnt actually better, just that people doing dungeons get it by accident, and dont need it.
Essentially the best way to obtain anything is generally to try to make money, then go to the tp, but heres the thing, a lot of players of rpgs and adventure game dont particularly enjoy massing wealth or playing a merchant/finances guy. They actually want to go and hunt the things they want, and preferably theyd like hunting things to be entertaining and exciting. The random distribution of items
now i know 1 reason they may have randomized drops, so as not to split players based on objectives, but overall i think it reduces the economy and game overall.
The game is better served when you have to say, go to mount maelstrom and hunt destroyers to supply destroyer lodestones, rather than kill random things till you can buy them. They can tie it to lore, and make it an interesting adventure.
Imagine if the best(you could still do it other ways, like farming) way to get incinerator actually meant you went into the pits of hell and fought hundreds of flaming enemies, played eat the fire flower with a lost haylek tribe, defeated The hardest flame elemental in the game, and broke into the flame legion headquarters and fought the most insane flame priest. that would be a better story, and lead to a feeling of a more full world, than spending hours in pentinent camp. But as is, the best way to do these type of things is to stay in the same place and do the same thing repeatedly, which has little to nothing to do with whatever your goal is.
This is the flaw of the current economic design, and it will continue to incentivize the type of play which doesnt make the game do what it wants to do well.
And “Economy”, and I use that term very loosely, with 7 figures worth of things like cinnamon sticks or logs is screwed. 8 million candy corn? Seriously? What ‘goal’ does that serve?
Just to put a little perspective on things, let’s take a look at actual pricing.
Take Charged Lodestones, which are one of the currently highest priced items required for many of “exclusive” items available. They’re currently being priced between 3.25 and 3.5g a piece. The Gifts that use them require 100 lodestones.
Now also take into account many of the posts around that offer guides to earning 3-6g per hour (there are some claiming as high as 10g) but lets say 3.5g per hour for the sake of this discussion as a reasonable rate.
Simple math, /snip
You assume farming for gold is fun. This is a game. We play to have fun. Not everyone finds running in a circle killing the same things for an hour to make a gold fun.
The problem is that a capitalist system in a GAME is a mistake. It’s awesome in the real world, but harmful in an environment where people are supposed to be more equal. A more ‘managed’ economy is better for a game. One that will reward people who like to play the market, but not so much over those who do not, and where people who don’t play the market have a small advantage in a different way over those who do play the market.
The ability to get the most desirable shinies in this game should be equal between those who like to play the game, and those who like to play the market, and those who like to farm. All three kinds of people are playing the ‘game’, but the latter two are playing a very narrow slice of it. It’s not fair to punish people who choose not to play those two narrow slices of the game by saying it will take them 5 times or 50 times as long to get something many people want.
Our resident economist seems powerless to affect the faucets and drains in this game, and it’s not going to get any better. I predict that unless appropriate steps are taken, by the 1 year anniversary, HEart rewards will start going up to compensate for the desirable items in game becoming too expensive for casual players to attain. It will be easier for ANet to just give people more money than fix the problem.
Thanks to the 11/15 patch putting me, and many, MANY of my comrades on perma-DR, I don’t have the option to supply my own materials — the option that prevents “wealth gaps” from ever becoming an issue in other games.
the TP are the only source due to DR!
Only the “lucky accounts” and the bots remain.
You’re not the first to throw this around as facts. Would you mind linking some proof about perma DR account and ‘lucky’ accounts? Or is it just a hunch you got?
I will say that I dislike the changes to the drops in Orr that made zombies drop a wide variety of T5 and T6 materials. Prior to that change there were reasons to kill a variety of mobs around the world to get different drops – trolls for Bloods, grawls for Totems, etc. Now you’re better off sitting at Shelter/Penitent regardless of what you’re after.
It might have been good for equalizing supply in the economy, but it’s done horrid things to incentives.
see thing here, is you are taking it back to money and wealth earned per hour. If you decided you are going to buy lodestones, you basically will be able to get 1 per hour of farming. (for the above average player) now if you take that same player, and tell him to actually hunt lodestones, he will essentially spend 30 minutes trying to create the circumstances that allow them to be farmed, then if he has average luck, he will get 1 per 1.5 hours.
Actually, I was trying to tie the item to time rather than gold. X -> gold -> Y as a function of time.
The only other alternative way to quantify this would be to say, “kill rate”… Which you allude to in the destroyer analogy. Kill “X” of whatever to get “Y”. But then you’re eventually going to reach the conversion of kills per hours which translates to “Y”/hour. Same thing. And then the more efficient killers will be the next target of contention of those unable to match their rate.
The point is regardless of base measurement, it’s going to come down to how many “Y” can be achieved per hour.
Essentially the best way to obtain anything is generally to try to make money, then go to the tp, but heres the thing, a lot of players of rpgs and adventure game dont particularly enjoy massing wealth or playing a merchant/finances guy. They actually want to go and hunt the things they want, and preferably theyd like hunting things to be entertaining and exciting.
I absolutely agree. Which is also why the TP is a good tool in that it allows you to do what you want, while still offering a means (if not the most efficient) to get items you otherwise wouldn’t. Again, it’s a function of how efficient the other actions are that is under contention.
The game is better served when you have to say, go to mount maelstrom and hunt destroyers to supply destroyer lodestones, rather than kill random things till you can buy them. They can tie it to lore, and make it an interesting adventure.
As I mentioned above, this then becomes a kill rate optimization. The more you kill, the faster you kill the more you get. Make it a jumping puzzle then? Then it’s a success rate conversion. At least with the gold/hr a player is not tied into being able to perform a single, or few tasks well to be able to effectively acquire what they want.
This is the flaw of the current economic design, and it will continue to incentivize the type of play which doesnt make the game do what it wants to do well.
I understand these arguments, but I still would like to see some kind of quantification as to what would constitute a fair rate of acquisition for these desired items? At least then a possible implementation in game to meet this rate could be discussed.
see thing here, is you are taking it back to money and wealth earned per hour. If you decided you are going to buy lodestones, you basically will be able to get 1 per hour of farming. (for the above average player) now if you take that same player, and tell him to actually hunt lodestones, he will essentially spend 30 minutes trying to create the circumstances that allow them to be farmed, then if he has average luck, he will get 1 per 1.5 hours.
Actually, I was trying to tie the item to time rather than gold. X -> gold -> Y as a function of time.
The only other alternative way to quantify this would be to say, “kill rate”… Which you allude to in the destroyer analogy. Kill “X” of whatever to get “Y”. But then you’re eventually going to reach the conversion of kills per hours which translates to “Y”/hour. Same thing. And then the more efficient killers will be the next target of contention of those unable to match their rate.
The point is regardless of base measurement, it’s going to come down to how many “Y” can be achieved per hour.
Essentially the best way to obtain anything is generally to try to make money, then go to the tp, but heres the thing, a lot of players of rpgs and adventure game dont particularly enjoy massing wealth or playing a merchant/finances guy. They actually want to go and hunt the things they want, and preferably theyd like hunting things to be entertaining and exciting.
I absolutely agree. Which is also why the TP is a good tool in that it allows you to do what you want, while still offering a means (if not the most efficient) to get items you otherwise wouldn’t. Again, it’s a function of how efficient the other actions are that is under contention.
The game is better served when you have to say, go to mount maelstrom and hunt destroyers to supply destroyer lodestones, rather than kill random things till you can buy them. They can tie it to lore, and make it an interesting adventure.
As I mentioned above, this then becomes a kill rate optimization. The more you kill, the faster you kill the more you get. Make it a jumping puzzle then? Then it’s a success rate conversion. At least with the gold/hr a player is not tied into being able to perform a single, or few tasks well to be able to effectively acquire what they want.
This is the flaw of the current economic design, and it will continue to incentivize the type of play which doesnt make the game do what it wants to do well.
I understand these arguments, but I still would like to see some kind of quantification as to what would constitute a fair rate of acquisition for these desired items? At least then a possible implementation in game to meet this rate could be discussed.
problem is your tying the player to doing just the gold thing per hour, no matter what they actually want to do. By stripping it down to the equations you are missing the point, it is a game, that is supposed to be about adventuring and doing fantastic things, for many of the populace, they play the game to do fantastic things. So while in equation form, yes just earning money is actually saving you time most likely, so one could say its better, however, its also forcing you to play the type of game you dont want to play.
If money was acting as a means of transfer of time, it would be cool, but it isnt, due to the drops, because you cant make a real choice in activities that yield profit, because the reward system doesnt require most people to choose an activity to succeed. People arent doing the things they most like doing then turning them into gold, to get the things they dont like doing, they are all doing the same 3 or 4 things, because these yeild the best gold per hour, and thats the best way to get anything specific.
Numerous activities the game devs wanted to be something people love doing, are not done, primarily because if you have a goal, its not a good way to achieve it.
exploration,
exploring lore,
fighting difficult monsters,
providing goods,
all of these things you are better off not doing and going to whatever farming is en vougue, because rewards arent given out based on intent, but randomly spread out to every player.
there is no reward or specific items hard monsters drop. There is no secret places that are better for doing x y and z. exploring and hunting treasure chests and the like gives less reward. Doing out of the way DEs where the npcs are essentially abandoned is much more difficult, and much less rewarding.
the devs said they want to improve the open world, but it will be hard to make the open world appealing if they dont start to make there be reasons to do the many other things in the game.
That’s what they really don’t want. And please stop saying doing dungeons is a grind. They came up with new mechanics fir dungeons that make them different and unique. It’s far superior than the actual grind i.e. kill that monster over and over and over again.
Dungeons can be a grind. Not a huge one, but still a grind, if you’re farming them efficiently (as in getting the money for the time). Ideally players would be able to do ANY reasonable activity, just roaming the world, playing “inefficiently”, and make less, but not substantially less than the dungeon farmers and market players.
As for the economy: how is a system that is completely player driven bad?? People get rich because they know what they are doing.
For the same reason the real world economy is bad, it tends to stratify such that those at the top become more and more separated from those in the middle, and they distort the market with them.
In an economy that supports the freedom of the traders, the sellers and the buyers, there will always be people who get richer than others! That is a given!
And nobody is arguing otherwise. All I’d like to see is a tighter gap between the wealthy and the average. Maybe they could be twice as wealthy as the average player, rather than ten times as wealthy, or more.
@Ohoni i strongly disagree with you. Making money is actually easy. Every casual can at least make 3g per day (~3h of gameplay) which is the absolute minimum.
If you farm dungeons efficiently, or farm Orr, maybe, but that’s not fun. Playing the game for fun does not tend to be even a fraction as rewarding as either of those activities, which in turn is not a fraction as rewarding as high end market play. It’s not about whether you can make money or not, it’s whether the various methods for making money are in balance.
It’s natural that the market yields more income. Players who buy and sell items in great proportions will always have a better profit. That’s undenyable.
Of course it’s deniable. In an open market that would be true, but there’s no reason why the market should have to be open, as this is an adventure game, not a stock market simulator. They could easily put in controls that would make high volume constant trading into a highly inefficient system, that has relatively tiny rewards to it. Buying 100 items at 20 silver and selling them back at 30 silver is a far less attractive way to spend your time if transaction charges on those trades completely negate the profits involved.
They bought them all off for 7p ea and resold them for 9p ea. They made so much more gold than everyone else it was not funny.
No, it’s not funny, which is why ANet should hire someone who’s job it is to ensures that no such shenanigans occur here, oh, wait. . .
So you say that you lodestones are needed, but they are not. I presume you are talking about crafting legendaries, in which case you are going after an item that is purely cosmetic.
Not this again. You believe that stats are more important than cosmetics. This is not a fact, it’s an opinion. You’re welcome to hold that opinion, but just accept as fact that there are people for whom “cosmetics” are of higher value than stats, so they “need” their cool looking weapon as much as you “need” your level 80 exotic stats. Ok, taking that knowledge in mind, you can continue with this discussion.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
problem is your tying the player to doing just the gold thing per hour, no matter what they actually want to do. By stripping it down to the equations you are missing the point, it is a game, that is supposed to be about adventuring and doing fantastic things, for many of the populace, they play the game to do fantastic things. So while in equation form, yes just earning money is actually saving you time most likely, so one could say its better, however, its also forcing you to play the type of game you dont want to play.
There’s a (theoretically) simple adjustment to that that solves everything. Quantify the value of “enjoyment” in in game currency. How much gold is the pleasure from an hour of [in-game activity x] worth? I mention that it’s theoretically simple because the math and theory behind it are extremely simple, but the actual practice of quantifying is fuzzy at best. But from a pure theory standpoint:
Option 1:
Gold earned per hour 1 + enjoyment value 1 per hour = Gameplay value 1
Option 2:
Gold earned per hour 2 + enjoyment value 2 per hour = Gameplay value 2
If Gameplay value 2 > Gameplay value 1, pursue option 2, otherwise pursue option 1. (Note, enjoyment value can be negative if it’s something you actively dislike, it’s also likely logarithmic rather than linear with respect to time.)
The game is about doing all sorts of things, but even the most mundane activities have merit in game insofar as they allow or enhance your attempts to do other things. To use (generic) examples from other games, inventory management can be a desired feature, even though most people would argue it’s not fun to manage inventory space. Non-instantaneous travel in an MMO can add value. Farming the same fight over and over again provides great enjoyment for some people. Camping a mob/event/etc often enhances the value of some other facet of a game.
Simply put, a game without those side activities wouldn’t last long. “All action all the time” is usually a negative comment about a game. The balance between certain activities and the alleged “meat” of a game is very important, but you can’t just simply say “well GW2 is about going stabby stabby on dragons so everything that’s not directly impaling mythical flying beasts is bad.”
problem is your tying the player to doing just the gold thing per hour, no matter what they actually want to do. By stripping it down to the equations you are missing the point, it is a game, that is supposed to be about adventuring and doing fantastic things, for many of the populace, they play the game to do fantastic things. So while in equation form, yes just earning money is actually saving you time most likely, so one could say its better, however, its also forcing you to play the type of game you dont want to play.
There’s a (theoretically) simple adjustment to that that solves everything. Quantify the value of “enjoyment” in in game currency. How much gold is the pleasure from an hour of [in-game activity x] worth? I mention that it’s theoretically simple because the math and theory behind it are extremely simple, but the actual practice of quantifying is fuzzy at best. But from a pure theory standpoint:
Option 1:
Gold earned per hour 1 + enjoyment value 1 per hour = Gameplay value 1
Option 2:
Gold earned per hour 2 + enjoyment value 2 per hour = Gameplay value 2
If Gameplay value 2 > Gameplay value 1, pursue option 2, otherwise pursue option 1. (Note, enjoyment value can be negative if it’s something you actively dislike, it’s also likely logarithmic rather than linear with respect to time.)
The game is about doing all sorts of things, but even the most mundane activities have merit in game insofar as they allow or enhance your attempts to do other things. To use (generic) examples from other games, inventory management can be a desired feature, even though most people would argue it’s not fun to manage inventory space. Non-instantaneous travel in an MMO can add value. Farming the same fight over and over again provides great enjoyment for some people. Camping a mob/event/etc often enhances the value of some other facet of a game.
Simply put, a game without those side activities wouldn’t last long. “All action all the time” is usually a negative comment about a game. The balance between certain activities and the alleged “meat” of a game is very important, but you can’t just simply say “well GW2 is about going stabby stabby on dragons so everything that’s not directly impaling mythical flying beasts is bad.”
Once again you are starting off with the premise that gold makes people happy, it really doesnt work that way, however the lack of reward, or disincetizing behaviors is proven. For example, many kids love playing tag, but most will like playing tag less if all the kids who dont play tag get chocolate. The key here is, people may not be happy with money, but it doesnt mean it doesnt bother them if others are getting rewards and they are not.
So yeah, im not saying they should take away rewards from any activity, im saying they should change how the decide what is awarded, some tasks should primarily award gold, other should primarily award items, this allows the drop rates to be better for people hunting specific things, and also allows the people to supply demands and balance costs.
This allows people people to actually obtain things they want. To go out and say, hey today i want to hunt a rifle, and have a better chance of getting a rifle, it may take them the same time that they would have been farming in ORR, but they will feel better for it. They will feel rewarded, and not feel like they have to participate in an economy they dont like in order to get ahead.
Essentially what it boils down to, is in a game, for many people money isnt paramount, but this game forces people to the TP and forces them to measure their time in money earned rather than what they can do or achieve.
money shouldnt be the end goal, money is supposed to be the liquid means of trading goods and services, by making money the only predictable reward for tasks, you make getting the most money per hour the best way to do anything you want to do. This is why it starts to feel like work to people, because they are doing things they dont really like, to get something they like later.
(edited by phys.7689)
Once again you are starting off with the premise that gold makes people happy,
Do I even have to read past here to know that you don’t make a single comment that comes even remotely close to dealing with anything I actually said?
I didn’t start of with the premise gold makes people happy. In fact, nothing could be further from the truth. All I did was convert the value of a currently non-quantified thing into different, quantifiable terms. Money has been shown time and again not to correlate with happiness, but we still utilize it as a universal unit of measurement for all sorts of things. A game is (or is not) worth $60 because of the enjoyment it brings, but that’s not stating that $60 would make a person happy. It’s all about opportunity cost. The $60 isn’t happiness, but it’s still a measure of value because it’s a universal unit of measurement that can compare nearly any other experience. Even though money doesn’t equal happiness, we know that $60 worth of enjoyment from a video game is a valid unit of measure by looking at what else could be done with that money. Is the $60 video game more or less enjoyable than $60 worth of movie tickets? Is that enjoyment more or less than $60 spent shopping? Is it worth more or less than $60 worth of different games? The currency is just a universal measuring stick, it has absolutely nothing to do with “money = happiness.” Once again you start with some bizarre premise that what other people are saying is something random you came up with in your head rather than the actual words posted to the forum.
it really doesnt work that way, however the lack of reward, or disincetizing behaviors is proven. For example, many kids love playing tag, but most will like playing tag less if all the kids who dont play tag get chocolate. The key here is, people may not be happy with money, but it doesnt mean it doesnt bother them if others are getting rewards and they are not.
Yep, not going to bother reading anything beyond this.
No disrespect intended to anyone but I often think that the vendor prices for selling items including trash is a little like social security.
It is there for everybody, is designed to enable you to make a start as a brand new player from level 1 upwards, and will cover your basic in game costs as a new player and/or on a new toon.
But……if vendor prices were too generous it would cause inflation this reducing the fungible value of gold per se.
Rift, another MMO game has that issue. Over there there is no need at all to ever use the auction house as you level up, you acquire all the gold you need via vendored items.
Hence the auction house is almost dead, OR has really inflated prices. And there the auction house is limited to one server…….well we all know the problems of a low pop realm…..a dead economy being but one of them.
Even on higher population worlds it can be an issue leveling professions in terms of materials unless you gather items yourself.
For myself I don’t play a game to grind , an action house, a means of exchange, and a healthy economy are necessary to any game of this type
Lodestone are a good exemple because you can actually farm them for more than 1 h 30 straight without getting even a single drop. Putting something in a game needed in 100 that you cannot consistently even get in less than 1 hour is flawed on a game design standpoint, especially in a game like GW2. You should always get more than one per hour by farming the monsters that supposedly drop them.
Why ? Well, because killing the same kitten monsters for hours without getting a single drop really kitten the hell out of me.
So you say that you lodestones are needed, but they are not. I presume you are talking about crafting legendaries, in which case you are going after an item that is purely cosmetic.
You can get full exotic armor from doing dungeons. You can get ascended rings from 20 days of daily fractals(fractal level 10). The backpiece takes another 253 fractal relics maximum. An ascended amulet takes 30 days of dailies or 20 dailies and 1 monthly.
While you can argue that legendary stats will increase in value when they release ascended weapons, speculation would allow us to say that ascended weapons will be easier to get than legendaries and therefore make anything crafted with lodestones cosmetic and not mandatory for maximum stats.
I am just saying there is a major difference between want and need.
In GW2 the entire economy revolves around legendary. There is only value in something that is rare and in GW2 the only items that are rare are the one used in making legendary weapons.
But no, lodestones aren’t used solely in legendary weapons.
Become a Legend in Tyria, Trade like noone else!
Sadly this is very true.
In Tyria the heroes of legend aren’t those who risk their lives to help others, nor the individuals who wage wars and save the world, not even the guys and gals who enrich the world by carving their so-called story across the borders of the world.
No, the legends of Tyria are the stock brokers and the individuals who’ve got an edge on the market… Sad indeed.
Become a Legend in Tyria, Trade like noone else!
Sadly this is very true.
In Tyria the heroes of legend aren’t those who risk their lives to help others, nor the individuals who wage wars and save the world, not even the guys and gals who enrich the world by carving their so-called story across the borders of the world.
No, the legends of Tyria are the stock brokers and the individuals who’ve got an edge on the market… Sad indeed.
I don’t understand. Why do people keep on insisting that the only people who have Legendaries are TP traders? There’s a ton of anecdotal evidence that shows people who have earned Legendaries outside the TP, and you even have a ANet economist come out and state that people are able tp purchase precursors by earning money outside the TP.
I really don’t get it. There’s absolutely no evidence to prove that everyone with Legendaries are TP “stock brokers,” while you have plenty of evidence showing the opposite (Not everyone who has Legendaries plays the TP). Mystifying.
I really don’t get it. There’s absolutely no evidence to prove that everyone with Legendaries are TP “stock brokers,” while you have plenty of evidence showing the opposite (Not everyone who has Legendaries plays the TP). Mystifying.
Yes, the legendary wielders are split between the stock brokers and the grindmongers. What’s mystifying is that an item referred to as a weapon of legendary proportions are relegated to those who either use gold to buy the materials, or those who mindlessly plow away to get the crap loads of crafting mats needed to make it.
Do you know what would have made these items worth being called legends?
An epic quest that reveals the history and interestingly crafted lore that went into making these items worthy of the legend that made them what they are. To be called a legendary weapon you’d expect there to be difficult content to assemble the components, and challenging puzzles and obstacles that you’d need to overcome to get these weapons assembled.
The time factor shouldn’t be a matter of taking forever to wade through hordes of bad drops, and the constant “challenge” of RNG. No, making your legendary should take time as you go through its story, uncover places you need to complete difficult tasks, and complete content that pushes you to your limits.
If you think RNG and stacking MF to grind away mats equates a challenging and rewarding process, then my views of a deep and satisfying experience differs completely from yours.
(edited by Azjenco.9425)
Do you know what would have made these items worth being called legends?
The fact that Anet designated this weapons tier “Legendary?”
While what you’re saying is great and all, Anet designed Legendaries to be only wielded by a small percentage of the population.
If you want this legendary epic quest to be only completable by only a small percentage of people, it has to be a very long and very difficult quest.
Lets just ignore how unfair a quest so difficult, a majority of the player population can’t do it. And how hard it is to come up with a metric for player skill. It has to take a loooong time to do to enforce rarity.
In order to not make it repetitive (grindy) there has to be a TON of unique content created, just for the sole purpose of creating a Legendary.
So you’re devoting TONS of dev work-hours to creating content on something that 1% of the population will experience.
While, in a perfect world, your ideas would be nice. But if we are working on the assumption that Anet wants to enforce Legendary rarity, your proposed solution is incredibly impractical.
I mean think about it. Say it takes 1000 hours of “grind” to earn a Legendary. In order to make this non-grindy and non-repetitive, Anet has to create 1000 hours of unique gameplay? (Perhaps more, seeing as more people would play through unique content than grind repetitively?) While certainly possible, it’s impractical, and really takes away from the rest of the game (yes, the game exists even if you ignore Legendaries)
(edited by Ursan.7846)
While what you’re saying is great and all, Anet designed Legendaries to be only wielded by a small percentage of the population.
You say it like it’s a bad thing…
If you want this legendary epic quest to be only completable by only a small percentage of people, it has to be a very long and very difficult quest.
A series of very tough challenges would do.
Lets just ignore how unfair a quest so difficult, a majority of the player population can’t do it. And how hard it is to come up with a metric for player skill. It has to take a loooong time to do to enforce rarity.
How many players have completed more than half of the JPs?
How many players have completed more than half explorer mode dungeons?
How many players have completed all the mini dungeons?
How many players have done world exploration?
The devs have said that expl dungeons are only for the dedicated dungeon runners. Jumping puzzles are there for only the most dedicated, and they’ve said it’s hard enough for not every player to complete.
As you can clearly see, there’s already content design not to be completed by all players, expl dungeons is already an example of niche content. I’m sorry, but your point falls through the floor.
In order to not make it repetitive (grindy) there has to be a TON of unique content created, just for the sole purpose of creating a Legendary.
A TON you say? No, they can reuse old maps, like say, revisiting old story missions, but tweak it to be hard mode. And placing components at hard to find and challenging places around the world, like at the end of JPs and mini dungeons, maybe even world bosses once they’ve been updated.
There’s already a scavenger hunt being design, so they are already designing content for the legendaries. Having a small story start when you find a precursor, maybe even just a small description in the item’s information tab, wouldn’t be that difficult. When I say give the items stories, I didn’t mean full on cinematics… Rather just add small tales as you assemble its components, like a book, or the appearance of a ghost, or even the remnants of a battle scene.
So you’re devoting TONS of dev work-hours to creating content on something that 1% of the population will experience.
Again, that’s already the idea behind explorable dungeons and JPs…
While, in a perfect world, your ideas would be nice. But if we are working on the assumption that Anet wants to enforce Legendary rarity, your proposed solution is incredibly impractical.
How was any of what I just said impractical? And just by saying “it takes 1000 hours of to earn a Legendary”, you’ve already stated that ANet enforces legendary rarity…
I mean think about it. Say it takes 1000 hours of “grind” to earn a Legendary. In order to make this non-grindy and non-repetitive, Anet has to create 1000 hours of unique gameplay? (Perhaps more, seeing as more people would play through unique content than grind repetitively?) While certainly possible, it’s impractical, and really takes away from the rest of the game (yes, the game exists even if you ignore Legendaries)
Like I said, you don’t need 1000 hours of unique gameplay to compare with the long grind it takes to have a legendary. Hell, right now it doesn’t even take a 1000 hours to get a legendary. Adding components to some challenging spots already in the world, and adding some scant content (which wont be that difficult, like I explained). You don’t need 1000 hours of content, only smart designed, challenging content.
So, rather than having the interestingly challenging content I described above, that would not only challenge players to their fullest and give each legendary item a unique and interesting tale and voice. You’d rather stick with the intense grind that really has no inventiveness or flavor in any way, shape, or form. I’m sorry, but if you’re content with mediocrity, then kudos to you, but I’d rather voice my opinion in an attempt to have the devs make something special of this.
(edited by Azjenco.9425)
^Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for more unique content. And of course it’s a great thing to have something as rare as Legendaries.
But the things you listed honestly aren’t hard. To say that not many people haven’t completed them now is misleading. Because if they were what was needed for a Legendary, a ton of people will do them. Because again, they just aren’t that difficult.
Also while a scavenger hunt is nice and all, it’s still not gonna take a terribly long time. Look at the Mad King’s scavenger hunt. Once the wiki for it went up it took people like 30 minutes to do. Look at the Black Moa scavenger hunt in GW1. It took like a day at most to do everything. It just isn’t hard, especially with the proliferation of guides on the internet.
Also how do you “tweak” things to be hard mode? Add more hp/attack? Come up with brand new boss mechanics? The former is boring, the latter is interesting, but the latter, again, requires a lot more dev-hours to develop. Also none of the personal story is really challenging, especially since you have the ability to bring along party members. And this all for content designed so that 1% of the playerbase can do?
Everything you described, while nice, would be quite trivial to do. A hardcore player will be able to do all that in like a month.
Now, if that’s their idea of rarity, that’s good. But it’s not. Doing all that is waaaaaaay easier than the hoops you have to jump right now to get that Legendary. While it’s a a wonderful thing to have, it’s just impractical from their point of view.
Stop complaining. Simple as that.
If you’re looking for a game where you can get the top gear with little effort (just playing), I suggest you pick up single player RPG.
The Guild Wars 2 economy actually isn’t that bad compared to the other major MMOs out there.
I lol’ed at the “some servers on WoW have good economy” comment… hahahaha
@Ursan
There’s a bit of a contradiction in your words that I want to point out:
Because if they were what was needed for a Legendary, a ton of people will do them. Because again, they just aren’t that difficult.
…
And this all for content designed so that 1% of the playerbase can do?
Like you said, design it, and people will definitely give it a go, even if they fail at first, perseverance will bring them back.
Let me put it this way.
Things that I feel make sense in a legendary weapon’s creation:
Mystic Coins – It takes time and dedicated play, but the fact that it’s a TP item isn’t good
Bloodstone shard, Badges of Honor, Obsidian shard, Gift of Exploration, Dungeon Tokens – They all take time and dedicated play to get
Things that don’t make sense in legendary creation:
T6 mats, ectos, Clover RNG.
The items I listed first is good examples of things that take time and play to get to, which is all great and deserve to be included in . The second list is poor excuses to waist extra time. These items are mats used in the crafting of normal gear, and function properly as such, but throwing them into legendaries is just bad design. Why not use more items from the first example then, at least these you need to play for, and can’t be bought.
As for the scavenger hunt, I didn’t mention it as an example of a challenge, rather to show that they are focused on expanding on legendaries. I also used it as an example to initiate the legendary weapon’s story, to add flavor to it. Like I said, completing your scavenger hunt, and then talking to the ghost of the previous owner will add a lot of flavor to the item. Plus, have a blurb in the precursor’s description with a small bit of extra story. That wouldn’t hurt and would add great feel to the items.
Continued bellow
Lastly, like I said, the items used in my above description is where the time consuming play comes in. Bloodstones, World Completion, Tokens, these function well as play sinks.
But then also add small items to existing mini dungeons and JPs. You said they were completable, but this should be where the fun part comes in. Rather than MF stacking and mat grinding in one spot for nights on end, have people do existing content. It’ll draw people to mini dungeons, and let people enjoy JPs together.
The devs are already updating the existing world, this wouldn’t be extra work as they are already in the process. Just incorporate these elements into the already ongoing design process. Plus, world bosses are being upgraded, add component items to them as well.
From there they can finally use existing maps, once you have all the components and the precursor. Like say, use three existing personal story maps. Then retool them with enemies and a new story. Like say, you need to hunt for an ancient forge, and at the end challenge the forge master for the right to use the forge. You need to do this alone, and what I meant by difficult is, just a cut above the personal story missions, push it just above that. You’ll need to do these three missions alone, and as you complete them, you get a few more glimpses of your item story coming to fruition.
As I said, the long play parts come from the examples I used in my first paragraph. Instead of having a mat hunt, which should should by all rights remain with just normal item crafting, and instead draw people to assemble parts from JPs, dungeons, mini dungeons and world bosses.
Then, have it all end in an epic climax that’s worthy of a legendary item’s stature.
If you’re looking for a game where you can get the top gear with little effort (just playing), I suggest you pick up single player RPG.
Kitten slap!
I didn’t ask for handout legendaries, instead, I actually suggested the crafting process be drawn to more interesting parts of the game, i.e. JPs and mini dungeons. I find it laughable that you seem to suggest slapping on MF and running Cursed Shore every night like a zombie is some sort of accomplishment.
If you want a game where you are rewarded by doing mindless, tedious tasks, WoW is that way. I’m here for a game that challenges you through interesting and innovative ideas.
With all due respect, the discussion seems to have shifted more toward Legendary acquisition, and while still a valid component of the TP & economy it’s a very niche component. And as stated numerous times throughout this thread, they are not a necessity, a requirement, or in any way a mandatory component of play.
Further, and most importantly, acquisition of the legendary components via the TP in no way precludes players from all the other aspects of the game (JP, dungeons, quests, etc.). While there is little argument that it offers a faster time to acquisition of these items, it also allows a player to participate in other aspects of the game, while using gains from those endeavors to still acquire, albeit at a slower rate, items they would otherwise not have gotten via these others methods.
Simply put, without the TP, participation in activities other then those directly associated with required components of a Legendary would be undesirable for those in that niche. As it stands now, which is undeniable, the TP offers the option of doing other activities while still allowing acquisition of said components. This is a good thing as it offers options and choice.
There’s a reason you really shouldn’t try to mimic a real life economy in an MMO. Real economies are terrible. You’re left with 1% controlling 99% much like you see today.
Playing the market should not be the best way to make money in a game. Playing the kitten game and contributing to your server should be.
Game economies should revolve around crafting. Unfortunately, newer MMO’s feel this need to allow anyone and everyone to max all their crafts rather easily. Make this process difficult and long and only for the dedicated and you have a step in the right direction.
Get this speculating nonsense out of my MMO.
@Ursan
There’s a bit of a contradiction in your words that I want to point out:Because if they were what was needed for a Legendary, a ton of people will do them. Because again, they just aren’t that difficult.
…
And this all for content designed so that 1% of the playerbase can do?Like you said, design it, and people will definitely give it a go, even if they fail at first, perseverance will bring them back.
And if it was content that you can simply complete with just “perseverence,” then it’s not going to enforce rarity.
You’re basically trying to design content that only 1% of the population can succeed in. Good luck.
The thing is, all your ideas are nice. Hard mode is fun, rewarding JPs is fun, etc. But you can’t make it reward Legendaries unless you toss out the current rarity of Legendaries out the window.
Which is fine. But I’m sure it’s not something Anet wants to do, and not worth their effort.
BTW I like to point out that Anet obviously wanted luck to be a factor in Legendaries as well, seeing as it requires Mystic CLOVERS. It makes perfect sense.
And if it was content that you can simply complete with just “perseverence,” then it’s not going to enforce rarity.
You’re basically trying to design content that only 1% of the population can succeed in. Good luck.
The thing is, all your ideas are nice. Hard mode is fun, rewarding JPs is fun, etc. But you can’t make it reward Legendaries unless you toss out the current rarity of Legendaries out the window.
Which is fine. But I’m sure it’s not something Anet wants to do, and not worth their effort.
BTW I like to point out that Anet obviously wanted luck to be a factor in Legendaries as well, seeing as it requires Mystic CLOVERS. It makes perfect sense.
I don’t see how you can say that a system which enforces perseverance wont result in item rarity. Of course it will, if players are required to do content that requires skill and test them to their fullest, then either you will have to try over and over, or just give up, or try it now and again over a long period. On the other hand, also including items that you can only achieve through skill points, completing dailies, karma, WvW and dungeon running, then you’ll need to play parts of the game for long periods of time.
But you state my system is not going to enforce rarity, and then you say only 1% of the population can succeed therein. Your two statements are pretty contradictory. Again, the devs have already placed content in the game that very few of the player base are meant to conquer, so making a case against it now kinda falls flat.
How exactly will the implementation of a new system toss out the old legendaries? Your reasoning seems flawed here. It will take some fine tuning and the new system can take just as long as the current one. Like I said, I only think part of the legendary creation isn’t up to scratch and deserves to be improved to “legendary” status. The rest can be readjusted around that, which could definitely work.
As for RNG. Precursors were heavily dependent thereon, even more than mystic clovers, and people hated the RNG. Now ANet is working on a scavenger hunt, thus throwing chance out of the equation. Since they’ve changed their minds on precursors, thinking they wont change the acquisition of clovers doesn’t seem that unlikely. And that makes perfect sense.
(edited by Azjenco.9425)
Do you know what would have made these items worth being called legends?
The fact that Anet designated this weapons tier “Legendary?”
While what you’re saying is great and all, Anet designed Legendaries to be only wielded by a small percentage of the population.
If you want this legendary epic quest to be only completable by only a small percentage of people, it has to be a very long and very difficult quest.
Lets just ignore how unfair a quest so difficult, a majority of the player population can’t do it. And how hard it is to come up with a metric for player skill. It has to take a loooong time to do to enforce rarity.
In order to not make it repetitive (grindy) there has to be a TON of unique content created, just for the sole purpose of creating a Legendary.
So you’re devoting TONS of dev work-hours to creating content on something that 1% of the population will experience.
While, in a perfect world, your ideas would be nice. But if we are working on the assumption that Anet wants to enforce Legendary rarity, your proposed solution is incredibly impractical.
I mean think about it. Say it takes 1000 hours of “grind” to earn a Legendary. In order to make this non-grindy and non-repetitive, Anet has to create 1000 hours of unique gameplay? (Perhaps more, seeing as more people would play through unique content than grind repetitively?) While certainly possible, it’s impractical, and really takes away from the rest of the game (yes, the game exists even if you ignore Legendaries)
Actually they dont have to design unique content, the methods of obtaining a precursor should actually use the already existing world to achieve its goal. The game is very large, with a lot of content, much of this content is ignored in favor of gold grinding activities. The endgame is basically Gold Wars, and its not the way in which the game is the most fun, or challenging.
They have difficult puzzles, mini dungeons, dungeons, hidden and hard to reach areas. dynamic events people have never done or seen. Gold can be an alternate path to achieving legendaries, but making it the only path essentially is shortchanging the large world they have created, and making the main endgame goal into a battle to be rich.
Simply put, without the TP, participation in activities other then those directly associated with required components of a Legendary would be undesirable for those in that niche. As it stands now, which is undeniable, the TP offers the option of doing other activities while still allowing acquisition of said components. This is a good thing as it offers options and choice.
More pseudo-intellectual babble. Look at this, i’ve chopped two whole unnecessary paragraphs from your post.
The issue here is the design of the legendary acquisition process is what is driving the god-aweful markets. (if precursors weren’t insane, people wouldn’t be compelled to manipulate the TP)
Everything is RNG, chickens drop better loot than dragons, and the reward system “stiffs” those who engage in the most challening content, while rewarding people who go to play “AIG Executive” at the trading post.
It is the signature of bad in-game reward design and economy.
The dependence of crafting upon horrendous lodestone drops for anything worth having, with no capacity to substitute (and no, transmuting is NOT valid, it’s way, WAY too expensive to be viable) is just plain bad.
What exactly is the point of having crafting if you have a better chance of outright finding a named exotic rather than crafting one?
Why is ANet afraid to make crafting itself valuable?
(edited by plasmacutter.2709)
With all due respect, the discussion seems to have shifted more toward Legendary acquisition, and while still a valid component of the TP & economy it’s a very niche component. And as stated numerous times throughout this thread, they are not a necessity, a requirement, or in any way a mandatory component of play.
Further, and most importantly, acquisition of the legendary components via the TP in no way precludes players from all the other aspects of the game (JP, dungeons, quests, etc.). While there is little argument that it offers a faster time to acquisition of these items, it also allows a player to participate in other aspects of the game, while using gains from those endeavors to still acquire, albeit at a slower rate, items they would otherwise not have gotten via these others methods.
Simply put, without the TP, participation in activities other then those directly associated with required components of a Legendary would be undesirable for those in that niche. As it stands now, which is undeniable, the TP offers the option of doing other activities while still allowing acquisition of said components. This is a good thing as it offers options and choice.
once again the problem is not that the TP allows you to trade time etc, the problem is that rewards are designed so that you cant achieve much without using the TP. also, activities arent designed to be rewarding in terms of earning gold.
The endgame has way to large a focus on competitive gold earning.
The tp or gold will always be the primary metric for trading time and effort between players, in this game there is even less choice about that without secure trading. In this game it will always be that. The problem is not the fact that TP exists, it is that the basics of the economny are extremely flawed.
biggest flaw of economy. It is difficult to consciously meet any specific demand.
ie, the majority of creations of goods are either totally random, or have enough random ways of obtaining it that not obtaining it randomly is of less value.
You cant trade your good or service because the game doesnt allow you to have a good or service.
materials supplier? a great many materials are awarded randomly by scavenging
item crafter? a great many items are awarded randomly by enemy drops
drop hunter? almost every drop is awarded randomly, so being the best ele hunter, or dragon hunter is worthless.
the game is primarily controlled by predetermined random rates, you cant even choose which type of gambling you prefer. The only winners are the lucky, and the people who stand outside of the game, the merchants. Some would say grinders are winners, but they arent really the winners, they just are the manufacturers, the blue collar guys who put in the hours. The game design forced them to work in a gold factory, and the wealthiest players decided how long they have to work in the factory.
With all due respect, the discussion seems to have shifted more toward Legendary acquisition, and while still a valid component of the TP & economy it’s a very niche component. And as stated numerous times throughout this thread, they are not a necessity, a requirement, or in any way a mandatory component of play.
Further, and most importantly, acquisition of the legendary components via the TP in no way precludes players from all the other aspects of the game (JP, dungeons, quests, etc.). While there is little argument that it offers a faster time to acquisition of these items, it also allows a player to participate in other aspects of the game, while using gains from those endeavors to still acquire, albeit at a slower rate, items they would otherwise not have gotten via these others methods.
Simply put, without the TP, participation in activities other then those directly associated with required components of a Legendary would be undesirable for those in that niche. As it stands now, which is undeniable, the TP offers the option of doing other activities while still allowing acquisition of said components. This is a good thing as it offers options and choice.
once again the problem is not that the TP allows you to trade time etc, the problem is that rewards are designed so that you cant achieve much without using the TP. also, activities arent designed to be rewarding in terms of earning gold.
The endgame has way to large a focus on competitive gold earning.The tp or gold will always be the primary metric for trading time and effort between players, in this game there is even less choice about that without secure trading. In this game it will always be that. The problem is not the fact that TP exists, it is that the basics of the economny are extremely flawed.
biggest flaw of economy. It is difficult to consciously meet any specific demand.
ie, the majority of creations of goods are either totally random, or have enough random ways of obtaining it that not obtaining it randomly is of less value.You cant trade your good or service because the game doesnt allow you to have a good or service.
materials supplier? a great many materials are awarded randomly by scavenging
item crafter? a great many items are awarded randomly by enemy drops
drop hunter? almost every drop is awarded randomly, so being the best ele hunter, or dragon hunter is worthless.the game is primarily controlled by predetermined random rates, you cant even choose which type of gambling you prefer. The only winners are the lucky, and the people who stand outside of the game, the merchants. Some would say grinders are winners, but they arent really the winners, they just are the manufacturers, the blue collar guys who put in the hours. The game design forced them to work in a gold factory, and the wealthiest players decided how long they have to work in the factory.
Don’t waste your time talking to a wall on this.
I’ve already illustrated this to him 4 pages ago and he invented some wild reason why it doesn’t apply… something about DR being the same as “high cost of entry” in the real world economy, and this somehow made the current economy fine.
Of course, it takes a crew of 10 and heavy machinery to mine the actual point out of his posts, but that’s expected of a sophist (or perhaps an intentional troll).
(edited by plasmacutter.2709)