Guild Wars 2

I did call many posters in this section biased, but intending to spread off topic suggestions? You might want to reread your own replies to me to see where that originated from in this thread.

Essence Snow.3194:

I did call many posters in this section biased, but intending to spread off topic suggestions? You might want to reread your own replies to me to see where that originated from in this thread.

You only replied to me once in this topic, when i asked you about the cons of flipping that you mentioned.

In your reply you shifted towards a different reward system.

and what’s wrong with selling second hand stuff, what do you rather want, it being destroyed because no one can use it anymore?
and what if you bought to much of a certain material, does that mean that it should just rot away never to be touched ever again?

Essence Snow.3194:

I never said I wanted to get rid of the tp. I’m pretty sure we’ve had that conversation b4 in another thread. Again it’s not an all or nothing prospect.

Yes, but what I’m seeing so far from you is a whole lot of work that the devs would have to do. On top of that you are wanting to mess with a system that is in place not to benefit the players, but to benefit Anet directly.

I can’t repeat myself enough on this: Anet’s primary focus is getting people to buy gems with real money. They use every aspect of the game to try and force this issue by making gold the end game. Waypoints, repair fees, abysmal loot drop rates, and so on. Everything is geared towards playing on the psychology of people, in getting them to open their wallets through impatience. If you ask me, it is far beyond “they’re a business, of course they want to make money”.

The Trading Post is a massive gold sink, and by allowing flipping, they also increase (usually double) the fees involved for the movement of one item. Every time a helmet is flipped, it increases the amount of gold removed from the economy. Every price increase is seen as good. Why do you think they leave dyes as soul-bound? Because the price of Abyss would plummet if you only needed to buy it once per account.

The gold sink provided by the TP is so large, that Anet has seen fit to leave the flippers be, for now. Believe me, Anet’s monetization people are probably apoplectic that there are players who have more than a couple thousand gold in their accounts, and would love more than anything to kill the “gold faucet”, but for right now, the benefits outweigh the problems by a large amount.

They’d love to change the TP, but for now, in spite of some players having more than a few gold to their name, the amount of work it would take to reign that in likely can’t be justified. Believe me, when it’s justified, they will change it in a heartbeat. Rest assured that no matter what your problem is with the current TP system, it is considered financially optimal for Anet, and the moment it isn’t, it will change to a model that is.

The best gold sinks are the ones that players will happily partake in because the costs overall seem small. TP fees and waypoints are inconsequential to most, but they soak up excess money. The Mystic Forge eats a lot of wealth, but people keep playing it despite the odds because there is that chance of hitting a jackpot. Making costs onerous like jacking up waypoint costs to ridiculous levels not only would make players balk but it would not even be as effective anymore as the cheaper wp system due to people who would choose to walk instead (and gather more mats and kill mobs for loot along the way, creating yet more items and money that may otherwise have been ignored).

Buford.2954:

The best gold sinks are the ones that players will happily partake in because the costs overall seem small. TP fees and waypoints are inconsequential to most, but they soak up excess money. The Mystic Forge eats a lot of wealth, but people keep playing it despite the odds because there is that chance of hitting a jackpot. Making costs onerous like jacking up waypoint costs to ridiculous levels not only would make players balk but it would not even be as effective anymore as the cheaper wp system due to people who would choose to walk instead (and gather more mats and kill mobs for loot along the way, creating yet more items and money that may otherwise have been ignored).

You know, I don’t frequently think about the Mystic Forge, but now that you mention it, it occurs to me that the MF actually serves to increase prices.

By destroying 75% of the products that are gambled in the MF, you are seeing no change in money supply, but an overall reduction in product available for sale.

mtpelion.4562:

Buford.2954:

The best gold sinks are the ones that players will happily partake in because the costs overall seem small. TP fees and waypoints are inconsequential to most, but they soak up excess money. The Mystic Forge eats a lot of wealth, but people keep playing it despite the odds because there is that chance of hitting a jackpot. Making costs onerous like jacking up waypoint costs to ridiculous levels not only would make players balk but it would not even be as effective anymore as the cheaper wp system due to people who would choose to walk instead (and gather more mats and kill mobs for loot along the way, creating yet more items and money that may otherwise have been ignored).

You know, I don’t frequently think about the Mystic Forge, but now that you mention it, it occurs to me that the MF actually serves to increase prices.

By destroying 75% of the products that are gambled in the MF, you are seeing no change in money supply, but an overall reduction in product available for sale.

Yeah there is an opportunity cost for the forge.

Those three item you forged do not get sold, and so the economy loses a chance to remove 15% of the value from those three items.

Wanze.8410:

Essence Snow.3194:

I did call many posters in this section biased, but intending to spread off topic suggestions? You might want to reread your own replies to me to see where that originated from in this thread.

You only replied to me once in this topic, when i asked you about the cons of flipping that you mentioned.

In your reply you shifted towards a different reward system.

My apologies it was Vol not you who brought that about.

Some mystic forge recipes can almost directly remove money from the supply, however. The material promotion recipes for lodestones as an example use Elonian wine which is consumed in the forging, and this is 25s4c per bottle to purchase as it is only (originally) available from the mystic forge merchant. Any recipe involving wine eats money.

Not in favor, raise your hands please raises hands =)

Shinzan.2908:

This would prevent tp manipulation and “playing the market”, but people who don’t do that and just play the game would remain unaffected.

You haven’t explained why this should be prevented in the first place. If nerfing it doesn’t affect people that don’t do that and just play, then not nerfing it doesn’t affect those people that don’t do that and just play either.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Behellagh.1468:

Ah! This topic again.

takes a drink

No one told me we started a drinking game. Was the word of the day “manipulation”?

No not “manipulation”, suggesting account bounding sales to but the kibosh on flippers. If a had a shot for every thread that blamed flippers I wouldn’t be able to type.

LordByron.8369:

That videos instead showed that despite queen s gauntlet affected for a time gold value, there were no subsequent deflation and a steady increment of inflation continued despite the event finished (that was even during summer with less people playing)….

Okay, I see what’s happening here.

I’ll take a step back and stop being defensive since what we have here is a difference in fact rather than a difference in philosophy.

You’re worried about inflation because, you believe, it destroys the purchasing power of individuals and, as such, degrades player enjoyment.

I get that concern. I hope to demonstrate to you why what you believe is wrong, I ask that you do me the courtesy of countering my specific statements and I promise to keep an open mind. Hopefully by the end one of us will have changed their mind.

Your claims:

1) Inflation is happening
2) Inflation is caused by speculators
3) Inflation is bad for casuals

We’ve seen the data on (1), so it’s fair to say that some inflation is happening.

As to (2), we need to understand why inflation happens, I have an economics background so if I start obfuscating with needlessly complex terms or if I skip a logical step please kick me and force me to restate rather than just assuming I’m purposefully trying to hide something.

Inflation has two generally causes (in reality), demand-push, and supply- pull. Demand-push refers to consumers having more money and pulling prices upwards via competition. If there are 10 loaves of bread and 20 people want that bread, a shop owner might not notice immediately, but if it happens each day they are likely to raise prices slightly so that one person drops out and the maximum amount of profit is captured.

Supply-pull is where item scarcity allows supplies to increase prices as they are not faced with supply competition.

The issue is where the demand-push inflation is coming from. The truth is that it’s a mix, but the mix is slanted towards different groups of items. Rich people don’t care about the majority of items that non-rich people care about. The rich have already maxed out their professions, so lower tier mats are useless. They’ve gotten their armor, so that is useless. Many have even gotten enough luck, so greens and blues are useless.

The inflation in the majority of items is, as such, caused by the creation of money from nothingness. And that is solely the responsibility of non-rich players.

But, to be fair, inflation does certainly occur that is caused by rich players. Namely in the precursor market. Rich people need something to spend money on, and precursors are the highest end items you can go after, if you desire atleast some degree of function rather than just fluff (minis, seasonal skins, etc being the extreme end of the fluff scale).

However, while rich people cause demand-push inflation on these high end items, they are also one of the major forces that keep supply-pull inflation down. Look at all the recent threads about people pouring 10’s of thousands of gold down the mystic toilet to get precursors. Imagine what the prices of precursors would be if suddenly those people stopped gambling due to a market that no longer allowed speculation.

Even one person doing toilet runs creates a significant number of the listed precursors.

…Continued below…

Now, the more important point is (3). “That Inflation is Bad for Casuals.”

I would say that this is fundamentally false. It’s true that inflation is bad for poor people in the real world, but that is because the majority of income is spent on necessities, which cannot be stalled and so poor people must give up some nessessities (a bad idea), go in to debt and/or live a pleasureless life devoid of any ‘wants’.

Not so in GW2. In the game everyone is effectively a titan of industry. They magically are granted finished goods which are resaleable to other consumers, or the materials to make those items.

To the normal player the price of mithril ore matters. They get a lot of it, and they tend to not use hardly any of it. Mithril ore spiked recently due to the toilet craze, and that meant all those casuals selling their mithril ore got more for it than they would otherwise.

The spike helped the little guy, and it was caused by rich people trying to get richer. It’s an exact demonstration of trickle down economics.

Your system would hurt all those mithril holders, the very people you wish to protect, by killing the thing that caused it. And this is only one market, this exact thing happens constantly throughout the trading post. In fact ‘inflation’ the very thing you’re railing against is the aggregate figure representing how well common people are being given more money for their goods.

The higher prices inflate the more common people are getting for their goods, and the easier it is for common players to get enough money to buy things. Were prices to decrease this would solely benefit those with large stockpiles of money as their purchasing power would in fact increase.

I apologize for any rambling, it’s a result of a genuine attempt at civil discourse.

John Smith.4610:

tolunart.2095:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Behellagh.1468:

Ah! This topic again.

takes a drink

No one told me we started a drinking game. Was the word of the day “manipulation”?

And chug a beer every time JS says “no.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zNjQecyjE8

Seriously though, I’ve never seen a compelling argument that making TP items account bound would be anything but devastatingly bad for this game and its players. There are of course many biases in any setting, especially a forum setting, but you know that my goal is to make the best possible game.

Bless your economics heart John. That post made my day. Now I’ll be hearing that “poof” sound each time you say NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Edit – New game. Each time JS say something awesome, we need to buy Gems.

I doubt blocking second hand sales is a good idea or can even be implemented at all at this point. But I love what some flippers/speculators imagine their role in the in-game economy is. Oh no! The price of widgets is going down! I better buy before prices get too low! Got to make sure everyone gets a good deal! But wait! The price is about to go up! Sell before it gets too high! If it get’s too high, people who need widgets will get screwed! And I have seven account’s worth! They’re the unsung heroes. Must be hard to give and give and get no thanks. Can’t we take up a collection for the flippers and speculators? A little thank you for everything they do for us?

I actually don’t hate you guys, believe it or not. Well, some of you, but not just because you play the market XD. I just think you’re not realistic about your relationship with the producers and consumers lol.

Essence Snow.3194:

Simplifying of terms….the 2 impatient parties other than yourself get cancelled out due to 2 other patient parties that it still effects. There are 2 sides, both instant and listings.

Explain this.

Are you talking about the person the trader overcut in order to get the item, and the person they undercut in order to sell the item?

Those people are not effected, they chose a price point that was either higher or lower than what the market rate was.

If the patient seller and buyer had their order fill instead it would mean the impatient seller and buyer would have received less and paid more for their item respectively.

It’s called competition, you cannot ‘cancel out’ the two impatient players, the patient players aren’t a part of the transaction.

John Smith.4610:

I’m assuming that your love for me stems from the fact that you just had to chug about 8 beers and are now very drunk.

Nah man. I respect your savvy experience in economics, even when not drunk. And your snarky attitude towards silly conspiracy theorists is refreshing. It’s a shame they deleted the “John Smith is awesome” thread.

Risingashes.8694:

But, to be fair, inflation does certainly occur that is caused by rich players. Namely in the precursor market. Rich people need something to spend money on, and precursors are the highest end items you can go after, if you desire atleast some degree of function rather than just fluff (minis, seasonal skins, etc being the extreme end of the fluff scale).

However, while rich people cause demand-push inflation on these high end items, they are also one of the major forces that keep supply-pull inflation down. Look at all the recent threads about people pouring 10’s of thousands of gold down the mystic toilet to get precursors. Imagine what the prices of precursors would be if suddenly those people stopped gambling due to a market that no longer allowed speculation.

Even one person doing toilet runs creates a significant number of the listed precursors.

I liked your post but i disagree with your view on pre cursors because i dont think its a manipulated market at all. Of course there are people with lots of gold flipping pre cursors and involved in trading with them but i dont think its possible for a few people, no matter how much gold they have, to manipulate the prices. For that the number of “ordinary” players getting a lucky drop from loot or the mf is simply too high and the market is too volatile.

Pre cursor prices have been stable for 6 months now since after clockwork chaos and before ascended weaponcrafting got introduced and the price is driven by supply and demand of the general player base, not by rich people controlling the market.

Samurai made some great research on that (and inflation in general), which is available here:
http://gw2trading.net/report/inflation

And this is why you don’t put market economies in videogames.

Maybe I’m the only one that sees them as an escape from reality and source of fun, I don’t see how putting the most kittenty aspect of real life (capitalism sucks, even if we don’t have anything better) makes your game any better, especially when it has no purpose or sense (resources are not limited and supply can be infinite if you want it to be).

But again, making a copypasta of the generic EQ/WoW formula is way easier and more financially safe than designing great games.

John Smith.4610:

tolunart.2095:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Behellagh.1468:

Ah! This topic again.

takes a drink

No one told me we started a drinking game. Was the word of the day “manipulation”?

And chug a beer every time JS says “no.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zNjQecyjE8

Seriously though, I’ve never seen a compelling argument that making TP items account bound would be anything but devastatingly bad for this game and its players. There are of course many biases in any setting, especially a forum setting, but you know that my goal is to make the best possible game.

I find this rather hard to believe unless of course you mean “best possible adventuring game focused on trading” or something along those lines. If in fact you do believe in trying to make the best possible game then you need to acknowledge what our system does to adventuring and rewards. I am fairly confident that most players of this genre will agree getting a drop or earning something directly is more fun than gathering gold to buy a reward.

Essence Snow.3194:

I find this rather hard to believe unless of course you mean “best possible adventuring game focused on trading” or something along those lines. If in fact you do believe in trying to make the best possible game then you need to acknowledge what our system does to adventuring and rewards. I am fairly confident that most players of this genre will agree getting a drop or earning something directly is more fun than gathering gold to buy a reward.

I think you’re way too bullish on the human condition. At heart we’re all a bunch of self-interested gold-hungry kittens.

This doesn’t mean we can’t aspire to be better, but I have a feeling that an MMO is not the forum in which we’ll start.

Essence Snow.3194:

I find this rather hard to believe unless of course you mean “best possible adventuring game focused on trading” or something along those lines. If in fact you do believe in trying to make the best possible game then you need to acknowledge what our system does to adventuring and rewards. I am fairly confident that most players of this genre will agree getting a drop or earning something directly is more fun than gathering gold to buy a reward.

Probably some of the design is to give people incentive to buy gem. And you really can’t create a game without paying employee salary and satisfying the investor.

Wanze.8410:

I liked your post but i disagree with your view on pre cursors because i dont think its a manipulated market at all.

I think the disagreement might be down to the definition of ‘manipulation’. It’s used so much by enemies of competition that it’s really hard to pin down what it actually means.

So let’s abandon the term entirely:

I believe that the market for precursors is not controllable, is not controlled, that the price represents a fair approximation of demand, that speculation exists but is not overbearing, and that no one person can have any significant medium term impact on either volume or price.

However I believe that the price of precursors is primarily determined by richer players, not as a form of control (or collusion), but simply due to their demand for precursors being higher than other players. Once you have a lot of capital it’s a far easier decision to head to the trading post to get your precursor.

I’d think that this might clear up any misunderstandings, and I’d like to hear if you disagree with any of my assumptions or conclusions.

Essence Snow.3194:

“best possible adventuring game focused on trading”

How can you justify claiming that the intention, or reality of GW2 is focused on trading?

The trading post is a tool that allows people to exchange unwanted drops for wanted drops.

Were there no trading the game would either be

1) extremely frustrating as most of the drops would be useless to individuals (the exact problem Fractal weapon drops have currently)

2) an infinite collection of tokens: as the only way to stop drops being useless to individuals is to allow choices, so instead of a global token system (gold) you have a hundred different tokens with 10-15 different choices between them. People already complain about the 15 or so different tokens, to have a trading-less game you’d need literally hundreds of them.

Very few people spend the majority of their time trading. And no people are prevented from playing if they don’t play the trading post. With this in mind, justify your claim that the focus is on trading.

Ah, this reminds me of a similar discussion I once had with Ohoni in some other long-buried thread. Those were the days.

@OP: I’m no economist, so I don’t understand at an expert level how to make predictions, but I do know that this would screw prices over severely, as well as creating much more inflation for the casual player. I also don’t see how the casual player is negatively impacted by manipulation and ‘playing the market.’ The only way that really happens is when they are over/undercut, and that would happen anyway if there are enough people that want to sell that item and have an inkling as to how the tp works. If anything current ‘playing the market’ actually positively impacts the casual, as there are more buyers if they want to sell and sellers if they want to buy, as well as competition driving prices slowly closer to an equilibrium.

tl;dr I think you’ve got it backwards, OP

Risingashes.8694:

Wanze.8410:

I liked your post but i disagree with your view on pre cursors because i dont think its a manipulated market at all.

I think the disagreement might be down to the definition of ‘manipulation’. It’s used so much by enemies of competition that it’s really hard to pin down what it actually means.

So let’s abandon the term entirely:

I believe that the market for precursors is not controllable, is not controlled, that the price represents a fair approximation of demand, that speculation exists but is not overbearing, and that no one person can have any significant medium term impact on either volume or price.

However I believe that the price of precursors is primarily determined by richer players, not as a form of control (or collusion), but simply due to their demand for precursors being higher than other players. Once you have a lot of capital it’s a far easier decision to head to the trading post to get your precursor.

I’d think that this might clear up any misunderstandings, and I’d like to hear if you disagree with any of my assumptions or conclusions.

I agree in general but not on a personal level. Of course its easier for rich players to just head over to the tp and buy a precursor but that doesnt inflate the price.
If I would do that, there is a high chance that i buy a precursor of an ordinary player, not someone who is flipping them for profit.

I also have no issue with admitting that there are lots of players with alot of gold (or item value in the bank), as i am one of them. However, the capital by the few rich is minisculed by the the capital of the general player base. Of course we have to ask ourselves where we draw the line between rich and regular players. Everybody can answer that for himself and where ever we draw the line, the general player base will still be responsible for the vast majority of precursor sales and purchases, so i think they define supply and demand and also the price.

On a personal level, i could also just go to the tp and buy a precursor for my next legendary, it would probably just take a week or so for me to make enough profit just with promoting T1 mats. The 1 week estimate would be for enough buy orders to be filled by the average Joe and it would not require more than 2 hours gametime overall.

If I wanted to and grind the tp all day like others grind PvE Farms in order to get their Legendary, i could buy 1 or 2 Legendaries a week. But i still only have one Juggernaut, which i crafted nearly a year ago, for which i grinded out the mayority of the mats and got a lucky drop for the precursor from the forge.
I accumulated enough mats through regular gameplay (without grinding) to forge another legendary, if i wanted to and i certainly have the funds to just buy a pre cursor, but i dont. Why?

Because i also believe that obtaining Legendaries should be an accomplishment, just like many others would agree. I actually had a great time working for my Juggernaut. To get all the mats i needed, i was forced to play parts of the game that i otherwise wouldnt have and i actually learned to enjoy most of them. I rather wait for the scavenger hunt/pre cursor crafting or a lucky drop to get it because i dont think that the prices of precursors now are worth it, to be honest. But apparantly, there are enough players willing to pay the actual prices, otherwise they wouldnt be there where they are, i just dont blame rich players for it because as i already mentioned, i believe the prices are established by the general player base and accept them.

So from personal experience, I would argue that rich players arent responsible for inflated precursor prices, especially because prices have been stable for 6 months. The huge price inflation in August was due to the 2 farmfests of the jubilee and the invasions, which made alot of general players so rich that they could afford a pre cursor. After that, prices didnt go down because the demand was still there.

Wanze.8410:

So from personal experience, I would argue that rich players arent responsible for inflated precursor prices, especially because prices have been stable for 6 months. The huge price inflation in August was due to the 2 farmfests of the jubilee and the invasions, which made alot of general players so rich that they could afford a pre cursor. After that, prices didnt go down because the demand was still there.

I’m actually going to have to disagree with this. Like any scarce luxury item, the price is generally determined (and inflated) by those able to afford it. And when the demand for an inherently scarce item (think Harvard education, Superbowl ticket, panda-hunting license) is high, the price will rapidly outpace inflation and be determined by only the subset of the population who can reasonably afford it. Assuming that precursors are such an item, I see no reason why the price isn’t determined by the pool of wealthier players.

And let’s face it: most of the wealthier GW2 players likely acquired their gold via the trading post. I personally have no problem with this, but it’s easy to see why the average player gets upset, in the same way that the public gets upset at bankers’ bonuses and CEOs’ salaries. Because just as those salaries make Harvard that much more unaffordable for their children (an actual problem), so too do BLTP traders (myself included) make precursors that much more unobtainable.

Risingashes.8694:

Essence Snow.3194:

“best possible adventuring game focused on trading”

How can you justify claiming that the intention, or reality of GW2 is focused on trading?

I think many people’s focus really is just making money. Either because they want to be rich or they want to buy something they want. And the end results is they end up focus on playing the trading post.

Weather GW2 is a trading post focus game, I dont’ want to get into that argument. Everyone have different perspective, that’s something hard to quantify.

But you can’t deny GW2 is one of the most trading focus mmorpg out there. There are thousands of mmorpg out there. How many are equal or more trading focus than GW2?

Essence Snow.3194:

I am fairly confident that most players of this genre will agree getting a drop or earning something directly is more fun than gathering gold to buy a reward.

Getting a good item you need as a drop is a lot more exciting than buying that item off a trading post, or equivalent.

Getting a good item you can’t use, or isn’t relevant to your build, or the like, and not being able to trade it to other players, feels really, really bad.

The same goes for earning something directly – if it’s something you really wanted, great! If it isn’t, getting this thing that you can’t trade or get any value for is a big let down.

You can get around this by making your rewards really uninspired (so that everyone wants the same things), or you can get around this by letting people trade.

GW2 has an issue of uninspired rewards, not one of letting people trade them.

Anyone who buys almost anything on the TP is buying into the system where it is possible to flip prices etc. There isn’t strictly anything wrong with that – if people genuinely think this is a moral issue, then I hope they also don’t buy anything irl from supermarkets or any store where a third party middle-man is involved in the purchase of the products. It is very hard to do.

Now, on a certain scale it is of course possible to abuse the system. Maybe some people have. But they are certainly fewer than people think or we’d have either everyone with thousands upon thousands of gold, or everyone with no gold at all. That hasn’t happened. The solution to a few abusing the system (if that is indeed happening), however, isn’t to close down the way the market runs, as it is a very successful operation most of the time. Preventing anyone from selling an item twice etc, only harms everyone.

I think one of the things that annoys people is that playing the Trading Post is the only aspect of the game that doesn’t get nerfed once people figure out a way to make money on it. Want to farm CoF all day? We’re nerfing that! Making a lot of money in Queen’s Jubilee? We’ll hit that too! Think there’s too much money going to those are good at the TP? Well, we can’t touch them, they provide a service!

The problem is that having the TP as most most efficient method of making money creates at least as many problems as it solves. If someone makes money flipping on the TP and buys a precursor what is the net effect on the game? On the positive side the buy and sell prices are closer together meaning that the casual player can make a quick sale knowing that they haven’t missed out on the best price by much (although their chances of making a bigger, more risky profit are reduced). Also they have acted as a gold sink, providing a slight deflationary effect. On the negative side they have reduced the number of available precursors in the game. I would argue that by having money concentrated like this the inflationary effect on desirable items such as precursors outweighs the deflationary effects of the gold sink.

CrossedHorse.4261:

Anyone who buys almost anything on the TP is buying into the system where it is possible to flip prices etc. There isn’t strictly anything wrong with that – if people genuinely think this is a moral issue, then I hope they also don’t buy anything irl from supermarkets or any store where a third party middle-man is involved in the purchase of the products. It is very hard to do.

I just want to point out that flipping occurs even in games without a centralised auction house/trading post. Guild Wars had players who made their wealth from flipping items, so I don’t think you’re going to be able to ever stop someone from buying low and selling high without removing all forms of player to player trading.

Cormac.3871:

I think one of the things that annoys people is that playing the Trading Post is the only aspect of the game that doesn’t get nerfed once people figure out a way to make money on it. Want to farm CoF all day? We’re nerfing that! Making a lot of money in Queen’s Jubilee? We’ll hit that too! Think there’s too much money going to those are good at the TP? Well, we can’t touch them, they provide a service!

I think that’s partly because these people are just thinking in personal terms rather than the economy as a whole. CoF isn’t nerfed because Joe Guardian can make x gold more per hour than CoE (or whatever), but because the cumulative effect of players running CoF non-stop to farm gold can unbalance the economy due to the amount of coin being introduced to the game.

Apart from not seeing how ArenaNet could “nerf the TP” with any degree of effectiveness, the argument for nerfing CoF doesn’t apply with the TP. If you increase the number of players “playing the TP”, the available profits don’t increase, but instead gets spread more thinly amongst the larger pool of traders.

Vol.7601:

What is wrong with someone having 30,000g?

If you think 30,000G is a lot, go ask the guy on SoR about how he got his 200,000G. He even got contacted by Anet to check out any suspicious activity, but instead congratulated him on such a feat.

Its not wrong having wealth.

Its wrong a MINI GAME like the TP is the only way to have that much while a normal player can achieve no more than 1/10.

And i perfectly know why here John Smith is popular….as much he is unpopular for the rest of the playerbase.

In main section people already talked a lot of how they perceive economy….(CDI topic)

Now i dare Smith to open a CDI topic on economy and TP in MAIN SECTION.

If people have a so bad perception of economy and TP could just mean its not so good for people who don t abuse it.

Astraea.6075:

Cormac.3871:

I think one of the things that annoys people is that playing the Trading Post is the only aspect of the game that doesn’t get nerfed once people figure out a way to make money on it. Want to farm CoF all day? We’re nerfing that! Making a lot of money in Queen’s Jubilee? We’ll hit that too! Think there’s too much money going to those are good at the TP? Well, we can’t touch them, they provide a service!

I think that’s partly because these people are just thinking in personal terms rather than the economy as a whole. CoF isn’t nerfed because Joe Guardian can make x gold more per hour than CoE (or whatever), but because the cumulative effect of players running CoF non-stop to farm gold can unbalance the economy due to the amount of coin being introduced to the game.

Apart from not seeing how ArenaNet could “nerf the TP” with any degree of effectiveness, the argument for nerfing CoF doesn’t apply with the TP. If you increase the number of players “playing the TP”, the available profits don’t increase, but instead gets spread more thinly amongst the larger pool of traders.

Look, I agree with most of what you said, but I think my underlying point still stands, which is that there is one way to play the game which is most effective in terms of creating wealth. Even though I agree that other wealth creation methods create problems it is galling that the most effective method, which is not even part of the advertised core gameplay, hasn’t been touched. My first paragraph was more explaining the sentiment.

Why is it that people think they have a right to dictate how someone else plays the game or what they get enjoyment from?

All I can hear through this argument is that people should play the game how they feel they should have fun, which is laughable…how big is your ego really. You know best?, for someone else…

I never dictate how someone else plays, I find my own fun, and I use the game mechanics I have been provided to give ME, the PAYING player the best possible experience. If thats focusing on a mini game so be it. I don’t care. It’s their game, their time which to them may be of substantial worth. I am not going to believe that I have the right to take away anyones personal freedom, their human rights due to my overblown egotistical opinion.

Do things annoy me in this game, sure, I’m human thats life. However as soon as I start thinking my opinion, my choices, my way of playing is the way and no one else should be allowed to do what they want. Hey!!. That’s when it’s time to put the game controller down and you know, re-connect with the real world.

As for the game mechanic mentioned, no one puts a gun to either parties head. If no one sold to the buy orders there would be no reason to flip in the first place. I understand you don’t like it, so don’t ever sell less than the going rate, simple. However don’t think you have any other sway over other players, you choose, they choose thats how life is.

As soon as you start feeling that this shouldn’t be they way it is, look to History and see how that line of thinking turned out real good for the people who believed they should have the rights over others.

Astraea.6075:

CrossedHorse.4261:

Anyone who buys almost anything on the TP is buying into the system where it is possible to flip prices etc. There isn’t strictly anything wrong with that – if people genuinely think this is a moral issue, then I hope they also don’t buy anything irl from supermarkets or any store where a third party middle-man is involved in the purchase of the products. It is very hard to do.

I just want to point out that flipping occurs even in games without a centralised auction house/trading post. Guild Wars had players who made their wealth from flipping items, so I don’t think you’re going to be able to ever stop someone from buying low and selling high without removing all forms of player to player trading.

ya but people don’t complain about flipping nearly as much in other games.

why is that people only complain about flipping in GW2 and Diablo3.

It’s not like those other game don’t have trading post or flippers.

Nimshae.2743:

Why is it that people think they have a right to dictate how someone else plays the game or what they get enjoyment from?

All I can hear through this argument is that people should play the game how they feel they should have fun, which is laughable…how big is your ego really. You know best?, for someone else…

Personally I am not against the idea of people who play the TP if that’s what they want to do. The problem is that it is disproportionately rewarded compared to other methods of playing.

Thats a valid opinion, however is anything stopping you from doing the same thing, if not it comes back to the same argument.

It’s a valid way of playing the game, Anet coded it in, just because you don’t enjoy it, I don’t enjoy farming but I don’t think I should deny anyone else the chance of doing it. Do they make profit farming, certainly. However unless the game denies me the same choices I don’t really see any problem with how anyone chooses to use their time to play.

Nimshae.2743:

Thats a valid opinion, however is anything stopping you from doing the same thing, if not it comes back to the same argument.

It’s a valid way of playing the game, Anet coded it in, just because you don’t enjoy it, I don’t enjoy farming but I don’t think I should deny anyone else the chance of doing it. Do they make profit farming, certainly. However unless the game denies me the same choices I don’t really see any problem with how anyone chooses to use their time to play.

When you say “however is anything stopping you from doing the same thing” you are effectively bringing the argument around to “play the way I want”, with perhaps the follow up of “or deal with the fact you get lesser rewards”.

The problem with disproportionate rewards for play style is that it effectively puts the most desirable objects in the game into the hands of the people who play in that style. Why are the people who are good at playing the TP more deserving than the people who are good at running dungeons?

Why are the people who are good at playing the TP more deserving than the people who are good at running dungeons?

So by your own logic, I myself who am no good at playing dungeons, and have no chance of getting those items of armour, have the right to ask Anet to take dungeons out of the game, so others can’t use them.

That seems flawed to me, I accept I am a not very good player, I am sad I can’t get the armour, but I don’t begrudge people who are good at it getting their rewards. I have the choice it’s not something I couldn’t do, I just don’t enjoy it, or more importantly I have a physical disability where my hands shake making me quite a weak member of a team that needs tactics and quick reflexes. Plus I tend to get stressed when under pressure which makes the shakes worse.

However thats the point I accept my limitations and play to my skills in game to have fun. Anet coded the game as is, not the players, in all areas PVP, WVW, PVE, Dungeons and Fractals you’ll find areas of the game that some people just aren’t good at. That’s fine…

What is not fine is to take the area you don’t like, don’t agree with, or don’t enjoy and try and stop it for other people, what is the logical reason for doing that. More importantly where would it stop. I feel for Anet here because as soon as they kowtow to this form of game moulding it will never stop.

Bunda.2691:

Wanze.8410:

So from personal experience, I would argue that rich players arent responsible for inflated precursor prices, especially because prices have been stable for 6 months. The huge price inflation in August was due to the 2 farmfests of the jubilee and the invasions, which made alot of general players so rich that they could afford a pre cursor. After that, prices didnt go down because the demand was still there.

I’m actually going to have to disagree with this. Like any scarce luxury item, the price is generally determined (and inflated) by those able to afford it. And when the demand for an inherently scarce item (think Harvard education, Superbowl ticket, panda-hunting license) is high, the price will rapidly outpace inflation and be determined by only the subset of the population who can reasonably afford it. Assuming that precursors are such an item, I see no reason why the price isn’t determined by the pool of wealthier players.

And let’s face it: most of the wealthier GW2 players likely acquired their gold via the trading post. I personally have no problem with this, but it’s easy to see why the average player gets upset, in the same way that the public gets upset at bankers’ bonuses and CEOs’ salaries. Because just as those salaries make Harvard that much more unaffordable for their children (an actual problem), so too do BLTP traders (myself included) make precursors that much more unobtainable.

Of course the price is determined by the players who can afford it (and those who get a drop) but i think i just draw the line between normal players who accumulate their wealth through playing the game and players who accumulate their wealth through the TP alot higher than current precursor prices. I certainly dont think that just because someone can afford to buy a precursor on the tp, that that person is rich.

I might have an accumulated wealth as kitten0 of my regular guildmates together but that doesnt mean that i bought as much precursors and forged as much Legendaries as them combined. So they determine the price of them, not me.

LordByron.8369:

Vol.7601:

What is wrong with someone having 30,000g?

If you think 30,000G is a lot, go ask the guy on SoR about how he got his 200,000G. He even got contacted by Anet to check out any suspicious activity, but instead congratulated him on such a feat.

Its not wrong having wealth.

Its wrong a MINI GAME like the TP is the only way to have that much while a normal player can achieve no more than 1/10.

And i perfectly know why here John Smith is popular….as much he is unpopular for the rest of the playerbase.

In main section people already talked a lot of how they perceive economy….(CDI topic)

Now i dare Smith to open a CDI topic on economy and TP in MAIN SECTION.

If people have a so bad perception of economy and TP could just mean its not so good for people who don t abuse it.

First of all, everybody can accumulate wealth by buying gems and converting it to gold. Usually, working an extra hour and converting my overtime pay to gold via gems yields more than playing the TP for an hour.

Concerning your opinion that the mayority of people in the CDI topic doesnt like the fact that people make 10 times the gold on the TP than others through game rewards, I dont see any indication of it in there. They asked for more special rewards for feats achieved in the game, like unique skins and titles and so on but i see very few posts that incline that the general player base thinks that the economy in general is unbalanced due to rich players.

Personally, i dont make much profit in just daily flipping, most of my profit involves some kind of game mechanic, like crafting, salvaging or opening lootbags that i obtained at the right price on the tp. So is crafting not an integral part of the game and lore? How do you feel about someone making lots of gold through crafting, do you think its unfair, if i make 10 times more gold through crafting than you running high lvl fractals? OF course, i still use the TP to buy cheap mats and sell my crafted items high but you also use the TP to sell your loot from fractals. Nevermind all the rewards from fractals, like asc rings, unique skins or recipes that i cant obtain with gold because they are account bound.

On one side people ask for more achievement based rewards, so rich players cant buy them and actually have to play content in order to obtain them but on the other side, they moan about that they cant sell those rewards, after they farmed more than they will ever need.

And concerning a CDI on trading/economy:

I actually requested that in the New CDI Topic and Mark replied that he will look into it.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/The-New-CDI-Topics/first#post3637137

Cormac.3871:

The problem is that it is disproportionately rewarded compared to other methods of playing.

WTF? There is no “reward” for using the TP. People buy the item at the price the flipper sets. If the price isn’t right, they have the right to set a different price that matches their needs.
Anet doesn’t give out bonuses to people who play the TP every day, there are no tokens or achievement points or titles, it’s all just based on what people are willing to pay to obtain an item that someone else has.

Neural.1824:

Cormac.3871:

The problem is that it is disproportionately rewarded compared to other methods of playing.

WTF? There is no “reward” for using the TP. People buy the item at the price the flipper sets. If the price isn’t right, they have the right to set a different price that matches their needs.
Anet doesn’t give out bonuses to people who play the TP every day, there are no tokens or achievement points or titles, it’s all just based on what people are willing to pay to obtain an item that someone else has.

People usually dont see the risk and time involved, as well as the cost for storage space.

Wanze.8410:

Of course the price is determined by the players who can afford it (and those who get a drop) but i think i just draw the line between normal players who accumulate their wealth through playing the game and players who accumulate their wealth through the TP alot higher than current precursor prices. I certainly dont think that just because someone can afford to buy a precursor on the tp, that that person is rich.

I might have an accumulated wealth as kitten0 of my regular guildmates together but that doesnt mean that i bought as much precursors and forged as much Legendaries as them combined. So they determine the price of them, not me.

Not necessarily. For an average person, a 25% increase in price of a one-time luxury purchase such as a precursor isn’t going to prevent them from buying it. Think of it like a Superbowl ticket. For the average fan, the price is well out of their budgetary price range, but many still splurge on the extravagance as a one-time purchase when, say, their team is in the game. For these fans, the difference between $1000 and $1250 is not a barrier to purchase. However, the $1250 price is a barrier to multiple purchases.

Now equate this this to a precursor. For many players, the precursor is also a one-time purchase, and thus they too will not be deterred if the price is a bit higher. Thus the price is less about what the average player will pay for it than it is about what the people who buy and sell it frequently will pay. And those who buy them frequently tend to be a) players who want to gear legendaries on multiple characters; b) those who craft legendaries for profit; c) those who can afford multiple legendaries; and d) speculators. All four of these categories are necessarily wealthier players, and I’d hazard a guess that they made most of that money on the TP, because it is the easiest way to do so.

Again, I have no problems with this, but it does help reveal how the existence of a 1%, to borrow the term from real life, does have an impact on high-end scarce goods.

New drops of Endless Mystery Tonics can be traded until they are used once.

Why?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-January-21-2014/first#post3547016