Guild Wars 2

SuKHoi.2063:

No, how will I make money if i don’t flip? You expect me to join the filthy champ trains?

le gems, buy them xdxd

Have you played any other games other than GW2? Every single MMORPG out there that has an Auction House or Trading Post allows LISTING, DE-LISTING, RE-LISTING. All the devs know that this is how the market works, and thus should be allowed to flow its course. Free market, do you know what that means? lol

Also real world trading works the same way and brokers take commission on each trade you make, which in-game context is the TP fees you pay – this also acts as a gold sink to keep inflation in check.

Spiuk.8421:

…But the introduction of gems means in-game gold is effectively real world currency and that makes them able to monetize in-game elements without putting a visible pricetag on them.

Care to explain how this is so? Unless you illegally sell your in-game gold to others for IRL money, which is a ban-able offense.

Risingashes.8694:

Very quickly you’d have 25,000 Peach Dyes listed at 15c and then no one would ever go back there again.

I, for one, would be perfectly happy to buy out 25,000 ‘for a good home’ Peach Dyes at 15c and feed them to the forge.

SuKHoi.2063:

No, how will I make money if i don’t flip? You expect me to join the filthy champ trains?

Maybe if everyone played fractals, events, www and pvp, the economy of expensive items would DEFLATE finally

Until people have the tp to get 10-1000X compared to other activities the economy will be TOTALLY broken for everyone except speculators….

The gem part is possibly the reason this system haven t been changed…..making this game P2Win for most players.

LordByron.8369:

SuKHoi.2063:

No, how will I make money if i don’t flip? You expect me to join the filthy champ trains?

Maybe if everyone played fractals, events, www and pvp, the economy of expensive items would DEFLATE finally

Until people have the tp to get 10-1000X compared to other activities the economy will be TOTALLY broken for everyone except speculators….

The gem part is possibly the reason this system haven t been changed…..making this game P2Win for most players.

I was wondering when you would throw a totally unrelated P2W arguement into this discussion.

Flipping definitely has ruined the economy for everyone else, since the only people with a lot of capital are those that flip and anyone who doesn’t flip will never be able to afford anything good in the game, but ANet so far doesn’t seem to care. If they did, they could just implement something like making most items Bind on Purchase, so that anything that drops could be sold once, but anything that you buy on the market you’re stuck with it, unable to flip it at all.

I think they just like to troll the players though, by allowing the market tycoons to just run roughshod over everyone else. who just wants to play the game and still be able to afford nice things

The problem with this is it’s not a debate or argument, because the people who are against the TP as it is have no correct information or evidence to support their theories. They have the right to sell their items at whatever price they like, the TP gives THEM the freedom to trade how THEY wish.

However thats not good enough, what this boils down to, their objections, their ideas is that they aren’t happy in that, they wish to dictate, or force the game to dictate to other players how THEY play. Which I am sorry, whatever way you look at that it’s wrong. I am sorry but none of you have the right to force your ideas and opinions on others to make them play the game how you want. Please I am not saying you have to play the game the way I like, can you do everyone else the same courtesy.

Case in point the post above is 100% supposition and opinion, there is no fact there. The economy for one is not runined. People who use the TP are not only people with a lot of capital, also show me proof please that only flippers can afford anything worthwhile.

Whats more I deny anyone to say they never use the TP so what you basically are saying all those that feel morality is on your side, you pay over the odds to craft items to be fair to the player base. Well if that makes you feel warm and fuzzy when you go to bed, well who am I to disabuse you of this notion.

Well I can tell you, you probably think I flip, but I make my money crafting. At considerable effort I raised all my crafting skills to 400, I make stock daily and I sell it one at a time on the TP, I use it in effect like my shop or consignment merchant.

However I don’t craft anything if I can get it cheaper on a buy order, thats just good economic sense. I don’t force people to sell at that price, they choose to play how they want. All of you probably never sell to buy orders and thats your choice. However you don’t agree with other people filling buy orders, so it needs to change. Really, please explain to me what gives you the right to make others dance to your tune….

Really I’d have more respect for you if you rallied people via compelling arguments, and the sharing of your moral opinion and thoughts to enmasse refuse to use the buy it now feature. However you aren’t going to do that now are you, you just want to force your opinions down people’s throats and have the game dictate your philosophy to the masses. Where is the fairness or moral high ground there.

So, is this thread meant to be a joke then?

Or perhaps some kind of parody of all the other totally nonsensical and highly uniformed threads we see pop up on these boards every so often which posit major restrictions/nerfs to the TP?

LordByron.8369:

SuKHoi.2063:

No, how will I make money if i don’t flip? You expect me to join the filthy champ trains?

Maybe if everyone played fractals, events, www and pvp, the economy of expensive items would DEFLATE finally

Until people have the tp to get 10-1000X compared to other activities the economy will be TOTALLY broken for everyone except speculators….

The gem part is possibly the reason this system haven t been changed…..making this game P2Win for most players.

Well you see, I am a nearly WvW only player. And as we all know WvW makes you kitten all in this game, so I have to rely on flipping to gear out my characters and get them their legendaries/ascended. If I do all the dungeons, maybe i’ll get 20g each day, which will take me forever.

If you don’t know how to flip/play the market, then its your loss and you deserve to stick to champ training or farming some LA event. That or buy gems.

SuKHoi.2063:

Well you see, I am a nearly WvW only player. And as we all know WvW makes you kitten all in this game, so I have to rely on flipping to gear out my characters and get them their legendaries/ascended. If I do all the dungeons, maybe i’ll get 20g each day, which will take me forever.

If you don’t know how to flip/play the market, then its your loss and you deserve to stick to champ training or farming some LA event. That or buy gems.

I don’t know about WvW, but I bet on the statistic chart it looks like: “See, they all love the TP, so many people using it.”

Ensign.2189:

Risingashes.8694:

Very quickly you’d have 25,000 Peach Dyes listed at 15c and then no one would ever go back there again.

I, for one, would be perfectly happy to buy out 25,000 ‘for a good home’ Peach Dyes at 15c and feed them to the forge.

Precisely, my brain (as well) automatically started figuring out how to exploit the system, how to stop those exploits, and subsequently how to exploit the fixes.

It’d be insane, and we all know ANet isn’t going to do it. But if they did it would be a never ending hassle. The traders would have a field day, the proponents would demand fixes that would make things even worse, ANet would make proper fixes but they would inadvertently miss something.

I just don’t know how some people don’t see how their restrictions to trade actually help the people they think are destroying the game. Traders love regulation, because it’s never perfect and within those imperfections lies opportunities for profit.

LordByron.8369:

The gem part is possibly the reason this system haven t been changed…..making this game P2Win for most players.

To win what? What exactly are rich players able to do that someone with 5 gold to their name cannot?

The entire game is open to everyone, end game stats are handed to you for a pittance, the only thing that you need to pay gold for are exclusive, rare, pretty things. It’s fluff and nothing else.

I like fluff but it’s not remotely related to game play.

So, answer: what is gold allowing people to win? Because I have gold and I’m not doing it. So I’m clearly missing out on something.

Nike.2631:

Well, that broad statement I can immediately disprove: I would do it.

And I think you’re underestimating the number of folks who play this game not as two-legged fiscal sharks, but relatively sedate social animals who would be perfectly happy to pass on specialized drops at a ‘token price’ as long as they knew the other person actually wanted it and didn’t just see them as a altruistic sucker in need of a good fleecing.

This. This, this! Very well said. I would use an option like that every single time, no question. I’d much rather sell to someone I know will actually use the items rather than wonder if someone else is going to try to turn around and make more profit off it down the road. I wouldn’t say I dislike or disapprove of economic PvP, but I really dislike that those who partake in it and are successful are able to get much more cooler stuff than the rest of us. This has always been a ‘thing’ in every game, but this TP seems to facilitate it even more and to extremes due to the ease of buy orders… or at least that is this economy noob’s perception. I’m too used to games where the best stuff was earned through playing, not paying.

Ohoni.6057:

Flipping definitely has ruined the economy for everyone else, since the only people with a lot of capital are those that flip and anyone who doesn’t flip will never be able to afford anything good in the game, but ANet so far doesn’t seem to care. If they did, they could just implement something like making most items Bind on Purchase, so that anything that drops could be sold once, but anything that you buy on the market you’re stuck with it, unable to flip it at all.

I think they just like to troll the players though, by allowing the market tycoons to just run roughshod over everyone else. who just wants to play the game and still be able to afford nice things

Lothirieth.3408:

I wouldn’t say I dislike or disapprove of economic PvP, but I really dislike that those who partake in it and are successful are able to get much more cooler stuff than the rest of us. This has always been a ‘thing’ in every game, but this TP seems to facilitate it even more and to extremes due to the ease of buy orders…

The main purpose of the TP is to facilitate the ease of transferring unwanted goods to others and subsequently to obtain goods that you value more than others or have trouble obtaining in the open world. The TP does this excellently.

A side effect of a large, fluid, and dynamic market is that it allows those with time and knowledge to profit off it. This is a small price to pay for the many benefits the TP provides to the rest of the player base.

To all the apprentices in game design and Economics:

In a game where gold is the only currency (upcoming patch), how healthy is it to have flipping being the most efficient way of making gold as opposed to playing through actual content?

Hugs.1856:

To all the apprentices in game design and Economics:

In a game where gold is the only currency (upcoming patch), how healthy is it to have flipping being the most efficient way of making gold as opposed to playing through actual content?

Even if this is the case, why are the vast majority of players out playing the game and not camped by the TP?

Because it just doesn’t matter. Sure, the wealthier players may have some impact on a few high-priced skins, but besides that they have no real effect on your and my gameplay. So to each their own.

People are insinuating you can only make masses of gold through flipping now?

Currently and historically there has always been ways of making tons of gold outside of flipping. More than enough to buy whatever you want, without taking on any risk whatsoever.

Fenrir.3609:

People are insinuating you can only make masses of gold through flipping now?

Currently and historically there has always been ways of making tons of gold outside of flipping. More than enough to buy whatever you want, without taking on any risk whatsoever.

Care to elaborate on what said “ways” (plural) are? I make more money on the TP than in any other activity I’ve ever done in game. It’s the reason I use the TP in general. I’ve found it near pointless to try and get gold anywhere else, let alone actual drops. This game is the Sahara desert of drops/gold, and at the same time gold is the end game. The only way to craft high end items (you know, the desirable ones) is to grind gold and buy the lodestones or whatever other crap you need to make them. There is no such thing as looting the required components. Not if you don’t have 8 hours a day and 4 years to spend grinding against Farming Punishment and the like.

Neural.1824:

Fenrir.3609:

People are insinuating you can only make masses of gold through flipping now?

Currently and historically there has always been ways of making tons of gold outside of flipping. More than enough to buy whatever you want, without taking on any risk whatsoever.

Care to elaborate on what said “ways” (plural) are? I make more money on the TP than in any other activity I’ve ever done in game. It’s the reason I use the TP in general. I’ve found it near pointless to try and get gold anywhere else, let alone actual drops. This game is the Sahara desert of drops/gold, and at the same time gold is the end game. The only way to craft high end items (you know, the desirable ones) is to grind gold and buy the lodestones or whatever other crap you need to make them. There is no such thing as looting the required components. Not if you don’t have 8 hours a day and 4 years to spend grinding against Farming Punishment and the like.

This is a sematic post, so feel free to ignore it if you don’t want to be technical.

You cannot make gold on the Trading Post.
You can only acquire gold that was already made by another player.

“I make more money on the TP than in any other activity I’ve ever done in game. It’s the reason I use the TP in general.”

By selling your drops?, by flipping. How long have you been playing and exactly what are you doing when playing. I play extremely casually yet I can make enough money in this game.

Crafting is how I do it, my Husband does the champion trains and sells the loot, how are you not getting loot?

maybe your game is broken I make plenty just playing the game and crafting, the only thing I use the TP for is to purchase items or components where people WILLINGLY sell them cheaper than I can craft them.

Again elucidate those who have a problem with how others play their game, what gives you the right to control them?

If you want a Legendary you can save for one in a couple of years with 3 or 4 gold earned a day. However what I am seeing here is people whining and moaning because they can’t get things quicker, and they suspect other people can?

Man you must have ulcers the size of small countries in real life if that strikes you as unfair, what do you do when someone drives past you in a nice car, throw yourself on the ground and tantrum?

Nimshae.2743:

“I make more money on the TP than in any other activity I’ve ever done in game. It’s the reason I use the TP in general.”

By selling your drops?, by flipping. How long have you been playing and exactly what are you doing when playing. I play extremely casually yet I can make enough money in this game.

Crafting is how I do it, my Husband does the champion trains and sells the loot, how are you not getting loot?

maybe your game is broken I make plenty just playing the game and crafting, the only thing I use the TP for is to purchase items or components where people WILLINGLY sell them cheaper than I can craft them.

Again elucidate those who have a problem with how others play their game, what gives you the right to control them?

If you want a Legendary you can save for one in a couple of years with 3 or 4 gold earned a day. However what I am seeing here is people whining and moaning because they can’t get things quicker, and they suspect other people can?

Man you must have ulcers the size of small countries in real life if that strikes you as unfair, what do you do when someone drives past you in a nice car, throw yourself on the ground and tantrum?

I’m not even going to respond to this beyond saying that you need to read my posts more carefully. I am not the one suffering jealousy issues. I saw someone in your proverbial nice car, and instead of throwing a tantrum, I researched and learned how to get one myself, and I’m on the way to doing so.

The question isn’t if you can make money outside of the tp (of course you can and most players will be happy with what they get)

The question is as a game designer, do you think it is healthy for your game to have flipping being the most efficient way to earn gold in a game where gold is, or will be the unique currency?

The TP cannot create gold. Therefore all gold traded in the TP is created from game specific rewards or gem store conversion. If you have an issue with flippers, you’re real issue is with the source of gold being handed to the flippers.

Second hand sales deflate the economy.

Hugs.1856:

The question isn’t if you can make money outside of the tp (of course you can and most players will be happy with what they get)

The question is as a game designer, do you think it is healthy for your game to have flipping being the most efficient way to earn gold in a game where gold is, or will be the unique currency?

Yes because investing is either a risk, or in terms of flipping many times as a service. for flipping many times the items bought need to be refined or crafted up which takes time, so not only are you selling the original materials you bought but also the work/time that was spent crafting/upgrading the item.

For speculating you are taking a risk, sometimes you make money sometimes you’ll end up losing money or holding on to the item until you can get a profit, but in this case even if you sell something for 130 gold that you bought a year earlier for 100 gold you would still lose money based on Time Value of Money (I am basing this on gem prices) In January of 2013 100 gems were worth 2 gold, In January of 2014 100 gems were worth over 8 gold meaning if you had held onto that item from the earlier example and sold it 130 your profit would show 10g50s (after TP fees) but when you look at how much the value of your gold has gone down because of inflation you can see that while you started with 100g and a year later had 110.5g its buying power is now only equal to only about 27.625g from the earlier year.

Hopefully that makes sense if not please say so and I will attempted to make it less jumbled and more clear.

I think there is something that those against the TP flippers are forgetting. The flippers create an immediate demand for items for those like me that don’t want to post an item and wait for it to sell. They set a price that I can live with and I sell whatever item needs to be sold, either because I can’t use the item myself or don’t want it taking up space in my bag or inventory. They most certainly serve a function. They buy what I don’t want right now. They give me the instant gratification I want, and they get paid for it by hopefully making a profit on reselling what I sold to them.

The fact that I don’t play the TP and still find that I make enough money to satisfy me (not worrying about what the next guy might make) says that it is working fine as far as I can tell.

Neural.1824:

Fenrir.3609:

People are insinuating you can only make masses of gold through flipping now?

Currently and historically there has always been ways of making tons of gold outside of flipping. More than enough to buy whatever you want, without taking on any risk whatsoever.

Care to elaborate on what said “ways” (plural) are? I make more money on the TP than in any other activity I’ve ever done in game. It’s the reason I use the TP in general. I’ve found it near pointless to try and get gold anywhere else, let alone actual drops. This game is the Sahara desert of drops/gold, and at the same time gold is the end game. The only way to craft high end items (you know, the desirable ones) is to grind gold and buy the lodestones or whatever other crap you need to make them. There is no such thing as looting the required components. Not if you don’t have 8 hours a day and 4 years to spend grinding against Farming Punishment and the like.

Historically there have been loads of gold sources, I wont bother to list them all but here are a few for you:

Orr farms.
SSC farms.
FS farms.
Deadeye Dunwell.
CoF1.
World boss rounds.

There has always been an option on the go.

Currently we have several obvious options:

Champ farms.
Dungeon speed runs.
Dungeon selling.

You can pull in a significant amount of money per hour (7-10G+ per hour) with zero risk and little effort in this game. Buying luxury endgame items is not the remit of TP flippers only, far from it.

As for making more money on the TP, good for you. You will note I never said that the TP didn’t offer more potential profit, I am all for the TP and feel that it should offer the greatest potential.

I was merely pointing out that the whole “you can’t make enough gold to get rare stuff without flipping” argument was total and utter rubbish, which it is.

Fenrir.3609:

You can pull in 7-10G + on average per hour currently with ease in this game with little to no effort and zero risk.

“zero risk” is a subjective thing, but ok.

I have yet to see 5g in an hour without an exotic drop, and that’s doing world champ trains. Yellows aren’t worth dirt, and the T6 drop rate is abysmal (which I can’t sell anyway, since I have other goals, like gathering T6 mats to build a legendary).

I’ve seen a lot of people claiming you can make mad amounts of gold “just playing the game casually”, but I’ve never seen a single one of those claims hold true when I chase it. The only one that’s been golden is TP flipping.

Neural.1824:

Fenrir.3609:

You can pull in 7-10G + on average per hour currently with ease in this game with little to no effort and zero risk.

“zero risk” is a subjective thing, but ok.

I have yet to see 5g in an hour without an exotic drop, and that’s doing world champ trains. Yellows aren’t worth dirt, and the T6 drop rate is abysmal (which I can’t sell anyway, since I have other goals, like gathering T6 mats to build a legendary).

I’ve seen a lot of people claiming you can make mad amounts of gold “just playing the game casually”, but I’ve never seen a single one of those claims hold true when I chase it. The only one that’s been golden is TP flipping.

Depends on what you mean by ‘casually’

If you mean by not farming and doing different things in game, from dungeons to meta trains to crafting and gathering, then yes, I can see making mad amounts of gold to be somewhat difficult.

But if you mean casually as in only having 2 hours a day to play, you can absolutely make lots of gold.

Neural.1824:

Fenrir.3609:

You can pull in 7-10G + on average per hour currently with ease in this game with little to no effort and zero risk.

“zero risk” is a subjective thing, but ok.

I have yet to see 5g in an hour without an exotic drop, and that’s doing world champ trains. Yellows aren’t worth dirt, and the T6 drop rate is abysmal (which I can’t sell anyway, since I have other goals, like gathering T6 mats to build a legendary).

I’ve seen a lot of people claiming you can make mad amounts of gold “just playing the game casually”, but I’ve never seen a single one of those claims hold true when I chase it. The only one that’s been golden is TP flipping.

I find it relatively easy to clear 7G per hour on average from pve, I certainly never pull less than 5-6g from champ trains (and there are more profitable things out there). I made ALOT of money from it in a very short time when I concentrated purely on farming and getting Dusk.

As for “playing the game casually”, you are right if you mean that in an activity centric sense. If someone does a “lol no stack” dungeon run, hangs about chatting to guildies and then does a bit of spvp. Then no, they won’t be making mega gold. I agree. But if you mean only say, a few hours a day, well that soon adds up and yes they can make a lot of gold.

The fact is that it IS possible to make a very large amount of gold, very quickly from non TP sources should you actively attempt to do it.

The same applies to flipping in fairness. If someone mucks about with 10g capital and does some casual flipping, they won’t be buying Eternity any time soon either.

If you can do it well and if you have the capital, then you can make the most on the TP (unless there is some hidden thing which I am unaware of). But it is more than possible to make more than enough gold to get luxury items in this game without becoming the games next Gordon Gekko and engaging in flipping et al.

note: this post may come across as rather defensive, but there’s not any particular edge to it that I’m trying to get across, I’m just relating things from my experience, so please don’t take it as an attack

Please don’t forget that there is also the RNG factor for loot drops.

When I’m not burned out bored with things, I’ll play 3 hours a day at times, especially right now due to running in LA.
Other times I’ll play at least 2 hours running in the FG champ train, even when it’s just 4 or 5 people. If I’m lucky, I get an exotic worth a couple gold about one out of every 150-200 champ boxes, and almost all the yellows I get are low end garbage that would be better used if I just gave up and salvaged for ectoplasm.
I don’t run dungeons (what can I say, I main a ranger :shrug: )
My fractal prowess is at a whopping level 1
I’m rank 12 in WvW
None of those are what I would deem “zero risk” or “easy”. Unless by “easy” you mean “easy trip to the repair smith”.
Perhaps I simply am the worst at PvE the gaming world has ever seen, I have no clue. All I know is that when I got beaten down far enough that I decided to try flipping as a last dying gasp, I was shocked at how quickly I started making gold. I have my own methods now, and currently I make a noticeable amount more in gold. And that includes speculation losses (if you sold me a lovestruck skin, you got a great deal, )

I’ve also discovered that in spite of a few differences of opinion, people in the flipping realm are far more willing to help others improve than in PvE. There is some good PvE advice that I’ve seen, but due to the current game mechanics, the answer to everything these days, it would seem, is “zerker”.

I believe it was either Vol or Wanze that advised me on how to shed my thousands of mithril ingots and T5 mats for a decent profit over just selling them, and it’s been great. The profit over raw value isn’t as much as I’d have thought, but it’s profit still, and I believe the items sell faster than just stacks of raw mats.

Will my little niche last forever? Of course not, and I’m not sure what I’ll do when that happens, but for now, the TP is vastly more profitable than any form of PvE gameplay that I’m capable of. I’m sure that there are people probably making 10g/hour doing hundreds of dungeon runs, but in all honesty, with the TP, I get to do whatever I choose once I’ve thrown up a bunch of buy orders if I’m not in the mood to mother them. I can go play in LA and come back after 45minutes and start flipping what I’ve bought, and collect gold from the last round.

Bottom line is, whether it is via incompetence or just bad luck, no form of gameplay listed has given me near the gold amounts that others have stated are possible. Meanwhile the TP is above and beyond those claims, and I still get to dink around doing whatever I want or need (should the dishes need cleaning).

Neural.1824:

note: this post may come across as rather defensive, but there’s not any particular edge to it that I’m trying to get across, I’m just relating things from my experience, so please don’t take it as an attack

Snip

It didn’t come across as defensive or an attack at all

Having said that, i’m not sure exactly how to respond to it (or even if I was meant to!).

You didn’t/don’t have much success in terms of gold gain in PVE and now have found some helpful people and have started to make more gold than you ever have before via the TP. Great!

But the point remains that you can indeed make a lot of gold from non TP centric sources. Some people do run in large 24/7 trains (i’m on deso the FS train is always on the go and very fast), they do blitz dungeons in zerk groups, they do solo/sell dungeons, in short they do make a lot of money.

Anyway, i’m glad you are doing well on the TP, and I hope it continues for you.

Well you see, I am a nearly WvW only player. And as we all know WvW makes you kitten all in this game, so I have to rely on flipping to gear out my characters and get them their legendaries/ascended. If I do all the dungeons, maybe i’ll get 20g each day, which will take me forever.

I’m lucky if I make a couple of gold per day from playing for three hours or so in the standard way, so maybe you can understand why it bothers me that someone making “only” 20g per day via flipping would be considered a pittance?

The main purpose of the TP is to facilitate the ease of transferring unwanted goods to others and subsequently to obtain goods that you value more than others or have trouble obtaining in the open world. The TP does this excellently.

A side effect of a large, fluid, and dynamic market is that it allows those with time and knowledge to profit off it. This is a small price to pay for the many benefits the TP provides to the rest of the player base.

It’s a fairly large price, really. Dozens of gold per day, per person, apparently. It’s possible to design systems in a way that they would not even slow the ability for players to put their excess items up for sale, or find items that they need, but that would prevent people from taking advantage of this mechanism to turn money into more money.

The TP cannot create gold. Therefore all gold traded in the TP is created from game specific rewards or gem store conversion. If you have an issue with flippers, you’re real issue is with the source of gold being handed to the flippers.

Why do flippers make this point as if it supports their position? It does quite the opposite. True, the TP does not create money, which means that every copper that a TP flipper makes is TAKEN from a player who was playing the game to earn it. TP Flippers add nothing to the game, all they do is take take take from their fellow players. Every item on the TP was added to the game by a player’s looting and harvesting. Every copper on the TP was added by a player’s looting. The normal players add to the game, and all the flippers do it take, and they seem to think this is all perfectly fine.

I think there is something that those against the TP flippers are forgetting. The flippers create an immediate demand for items for those like me that don’t want to post an item and wait for it to sell. They set a price that I can live with and I sell whatever item needs to be sold, either because I can’t use the item myself or don’t want it taking up space in my bag or inventory. They most certainly serve a function. They buy what I don’t want right now. They give me the instant gratification I want, and they get paid for it by hopefully making a profit on reselling what I sold to them.

If you truly believe that then you’re a fool. Yes, they might give you your money a little faster, but unless you’re living hand to mouth you shouldn’t usually have a need for immediate cash past the very low levels. Most items that a flipper would have any interest in buying off of you would move via sell order for a considerably higher price within 24-48 hours, and then you’d have your money, plus their cut of the deal. And if it’s your inventory space you’re worried about, any item placed on the TP is already out of your inventory, whether you “sell it now” or set a sell price, so it really doesn’t matter if the item languishes on the TP for weeks or even months, it’s still out of your way at least.

Outside of a few very rare situations where you need a ton of cash immediately, there is just no reason why flippers would benefit your ability to sell off found loot.

Ohoni.6057:

..removed for brevity..

Are you one of those people that thinks a burger flipper should make the same amount of money per year that an executive in charge of running a multi-billion dollar business does? Because it sure sounds like it.

Ohoni.6057:

Why do flippers make this point as if it supports their position? It does quite the opposite. True, the TP does not create money, which means that every copper that a TP flipper makes is TAKEN from a player who was playing the game to earn it. TP Flippers add nothing to the game, all they do is take take take from their fellow players. Every item on the TP was added to the game by a player’s looting and harvesting. Every copper on the TP was added by a player’s looting. The normal players add to the game, and all the flippers do it take, and they seem to think this is all perfectly fine.

If the TP flippers added nothing to the game, then they wouldn’t be able to get any gold from other players.

Those other players CHOOSE to give their gold to the TP flipper in exchange for an instant transaction at a reasonable price.

The TP flipper adds convenience and gets paid for it.

Wow, I can’t believe how many people want to destroy my dear, sweet, lovable trading post. It’s become an integral part of my game. As a mathematician that spends all day with spreadsheets, I absolutely love it. Thanks you ANet for build a game for people like me.

Ohoni.6057:

Well you see, I am a nearly WvW only player. And as we all know WvW makes you kitten all in this game, so I have to rely on flipping to gear out my characters and get them their legendaries/ascended. If I do all the dungeons, maybe i’ll get 20g each day, which will take me forever.

I’m lucky if I make a couple of gold per day from playing for three hours or so in the standard way, so maybe you can understand why it bothers me that someone making “only” 20g per day via flipping would be considered a pittance?

The main purpose of the TP is to facilitate the ease of transferring unwanted goods to others and subsequently to obtain goods that you value more than others or have trouble obtaining in the open world. The TP does this excellently.

A side effect of a large, fluid, and dynamic market is that it allows those with time and knowledge to profit off it. This is a small price to pay for the many benefits the TP provides to the rest of the player base.

It’s a fairly large price, really. Dozens of gold per day, per person, apparently. It’s possible to design systems in a way that they would not even slow the ability for players to put their excess items up for sale, or find items that they need, but that would prevent people from taking advantage of this mechanism to turn money into more money.

The TP cannot create gold. Therefore all gold traded in the TP is created from game specific rewards or gem store conversion. If you have an issue with flippers, you’re real issue is with the source of gold being handed to the flippers.

Why do flippers make this point as if it supports their position? It does quite the opposite. True, the TP does not create money, which means that every copper that a TP flipper makes is TAKEN from a player who was playing the game to earn it. TP Flippers add nothing to the game, all they do is take take take from their fellow players. Every item on the TP was added to the game by a player’s looting and harvesting. Every copper on the TP was added by a player’s looting. The normal players add to the game, and all the flippers do it take, and they seem to think this is all perfectly fine.

I think there is something that those against the TP flippers are forgetting. The flippers create an immediate demand for items for those like me that don’t want to post an item and wait for it to sell. They set a price that I can live with and I sell whatever item needs to be sold, either because I can’t use the item myself or don’t want it taking up space in my bag or inventory. They most certainly serve a function. They buy what I don’t want right now. They give me the instant gratification I want, and they get paid for it by hopefully making a profit on reselling what I sold to them.

If you truly believe that then you’re a fool. Yes, they might give you your money a little faster, but unless you’re living hand to mouth you shouldn’t usually have a need for immediate cash past the very low levels. Most items that a flipper would have any interest in buying off of you would move via sell order for a considerably higher price within 24-48 hours, and then you’d have your money, plus their cut of the deal. And if it’s your inventory space you’re worried about, any item placed on the TP is already out of your inventory, whether you “sell it now” or set a sell price, so it really doesn’t matter if the item languishes on the TP for weeks or even months, it’s still out of your way at least.

Outside of a few very rare situations where you need a ton of cash immediately, there is just no reason why flippers would benefit your ability to sell off found loot.

To be honest, if you don’t like the fact that someone is making more money than you, I only have one thing to say: L2P.

Are you one of those people that thinks a burger flipper should make the same amount of money per year that an executive in charge of running a multi-billion dollar business does? Because it sure sounds like it.

Not the same amount, but assuming they put the same time and effort into it, the difference should not be the thousands of times that it currently is. I think in the current US economy, the people on the low end make way too little and the people at the top way too much, even if we can agree that the people at the top generally deserve to make at least a bit more per hour.

If the TP flippers added nothing to the game, then they wouldn’t be able to get any gold from other players.

That’s a very flawed argument. You don’t need to add anything to take, you just need to be in the right place at the right time. It’s preying on other player’s weaknesses. It’s like saying that in an open PvP game, that the players who gank newbs outside the starting area are adding to the game because without them, who would gank the newbs?

Those other players CHOOSE to give their gold to the TP flipper in exchange for an instant transaction at a reasonable price.

Yes, but only because they don’t understand that they could get a better price with almost no difference in the time involved, and they don’t understand that by supplying the flippers they are making the cost of the items they need that gold for even higher. The flippers depend on the stupidity of strangers, which doesn’t mean that their actions are somehow just.

The TP flipper adds convenience and gets paid for it.

What convenience do they add? Do they remove items from the players’ inventories any faster? No. An item sold via sell order is no less gone from the player’s inventory than one sold at the buy order. Do they bring money to the player faster? Yes, but usually only VERY slightly faster, the player could likely get the same price the flipper does within 24 hours, and it’s only a foolish player that does not have enough money saved up to cover himself for a 24 hour period.

And keep in mind, if flippers were removed, it wouldn’t mean that buy and sell orders would vanish too. People who need things for themselves would still place buy orders and people who sell their own stuff would still place sell orders, so if flippers were incapable of turning any profit on the transaction, the average player would still be able to sell his things instantly and buy things instantly, he just would likely get a better deal overall from both.

Wow, I can’t believe how many people want to destroy my dear, sweet, lovable trading post. It’s become an integral part of my game. As a mathematician that spends all day with spreadsheets, I absolutely love it. Thanks you ANet for build a game for people like me.

I get that attitude, and don’t at all begrudge it, but please understand that your gameplay fun comes at the expense of others who have to live in the same economy. If they can set up a “PvPTP” that is completely separate from the actual player economy, in which market tycoons buy and sell items in exchange for currency, none of which is actually usable or earnable through the normal gameplay and therefore a non-issue to normal players, then that’s great, but they should not allow TP players to profit at the expense of everyone else, no matter how fun they might find that gameplay style.

To be honest, if you don’t like the fact that someone is making more money than you, I only have one thing to say: L2P.

I could, but I don’t want to. I don’t enjoy playing market tycoon, and I don’t believe that it should be the only reasonable way to earn money in what is billed as an action/adventure RPG. If this game were billed as an economic sim, then fine, let the market be the only game in town, but it’s not. Playing the action and adventure aspects of the game should 100% be the most rewarding way to play the game. If it is not, then they have done something wrong, and should be working to fix it, rather than laughing off those flaws.

Ohoni.6057:

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Would you be ok with some form of progressive taxation, based, say, on total gold? Each month you pay a (small) percent of your wealth back to aNet, and this rate could be increased the more you have (though not too extreme). Because I bet most TP players would be fine with such a system as well. Not that it would really accomplish anything (unless the rates were really high, but this is a bad idea for other reasons), but it could add an impression of fairness to the game, even though it would have little effect on the activities of traders and the accumulation of gold.

Bunda.2691:

Ohoni.6057:

..removed for brevity..

Would you be ok with some form of progressive taxation, based, say, on total gold? Each month you pay a (small) percent of your wealth back to aNet, and this rate could be increased the more you have (though not too extreme). Because I bet most TP players would be fine with such a system as well. Not that it would really accomplish anything (unless the rates were really high, but this is a bad idea for other reasons), but it could add an impression of fairness to the game, even though it would have little effect on the activities of traders and the accumulation of gold.

Of course, in the end, the person that actually pays the tax is the person that buys the goods because the seller has to charge more for it.

Would you be ok with some form of progressive taxation, based, say, on total gold? Each month you pay a (small) percent of your wealth back to aNet, and this rate could be increased the more you have (though not too extreme).

That alone likely wouldn’t help, because from what I understand, most flippers do not remain “liquid” and probably have less gold at any given time than I do, but they have thousands of gold in high value items that they can easily flip when they do need the cash. If they don’t already employ this tactic then they probably would if liquid assets were taxed. I don’t think there would be a good taxation system than wouldn’t cut players as hard as TPers.

I still think the solution is just to add Bind on Purchase.

Ohoni.6057:

Would you be ok with some form of progressive taxation, based, say, on total gold? Each month you pay a (small) percent of your wealth back to aNet, and this rate could be increased the more you have (though not too extreme).

That alone likely wouldn’t help, because from what I understand, most flippers do not remain “liquid” and probably have less gold at any given time than I do, but they have thousands of gold in high value items that they can easily flip when they do need the cash. If they don’t already employ this tactic then they probably would if liquid assets were taxed. I don’t think there would be a good taxation system than wouldn’t cut players as hard as TPers.

I still think the solution is just to add Bind on Purchase.

You’re in cahoots with anet as part of their plan to sell bank and inventory slots, right?

Seriously though, bind on purchase is a fine system that would significantly decrease the complexity of the game and likely drive away a ton of creative players. Both of these things are bad.

And I’m with you man when it comes to real world wealth distribution. But this is a sandbox-y game that caters to all types. And nothing others are doing is harming your or my ability to have fun playing it (save for those pre-cooldown perplexity engines or thieves, but that is a whole different story).

It is a free market and people want A-net to regulate it? Flippers profit off of player trying to make fast gold. If people think A-net controlling how many item you can put on TP would help prices you are wrong. It will have the opposite effect and greatly reduce the supply of items. It would shock the TP system.

Remember this is a game and it is suppose to be fun to play. You have to work hard to get a good looking skin or ascended gear(armor is not worthwhile). The problem is people want to have easier access to those type of gear or remove one of the long goals for casuals in the game.

Ulion.5476:

It is a free market and people want A-net to regulate it? Flippers profit off of player trying to make fast gold. If people think A-net controlling how many item you can put on TP would help prices you are wrong. It will have the opposite effect and greatly reduce the supply of items. It would shock the TP system.

Remember this is a game and it is suppose to be fun to play. You have to work hard to get a good looking skin or ascended gear(armor is not worthwhile). The problem is people want to have easier access to those type of gear or remove one of the long goals for casuals in the game.

Flippers do also profit off new players, who either don’t have much gold or don’t have a thorough understanding of the TP and the economy. Those of us who flip do have to understand that we are at times taking advantage of others’ ignorance or lack of skill. But seeing as this is a video game with a PvP component, I personally don’t have a problem with it. But it’s understandable too that others might.

I used to play Diablo 3, and a term that keeps coming up is Auction House Tycoon. Where people literally stop playing the game(aka fighting monster) and spend all their time looking at the Auction house flipping item.

I think some what the same thing is happening GW2. Probably not to the extend Diablo 3 have. But that is literally what happened. People end up spending more time on the trading post and looking at spidy than actually playing the other part of the game. In all, the trading post have become a game by itself.

For some, playing the trading post is fun, and for others they don’t enjoy it, but the TP just seemed too good of a tool to make money to not use it. So the end results, is people start complaining about flipping.

Personally, I’m never very good of a flipper myself, but I find it silly to keep money, since in the long run, the average item seemed to rise in price, so I always keep more items instead of raw cash in my portfolio.

Ulion.5476:

It is a free market and people want A-net to regulate it? Flippers profit off of player trying to make fast gold. If people think A-net controlling how many item you can put on TP would help prices you are wrong. It will have the opposite effect and greatly reduce the supply of items. It would shock the TP system.

Several people posted the same thing you are saying. But I personally posted a counter argument twice. Why is it only a problem in games like GW2 or Diablo3.

Other games have trading post, flipper, free market. And people don’t seem to complain about flipping nearly as much.

I think in all, the problem is the way TP and economy is designed. Most games dont’ have a buy order system, and flippers in GW2 can take advantage of it to buy items at cheaper price. And in general how volatile the price is. The focus on gold to acquire items instead of bind on acquire system. The price of silk jump from 8 copper to 2 silver by a patch. Even a simple masterwork crafting monthly cause copper to double in price. Centralized auction house system, instead of separate auction house per server, which makes volume flipping paradise… etc etc

Seriously though, bind on purchase is a fine system that would significantly decrease the complexity of the game and likely drive away a ton of creative players. Both of these things are bad.

Why would it drive away any players that don’t work the markets for advantage? If you mean it will drive away market tycoons, then good, those are the players it’s intended to drive away.

It is a free market and people want A-net to regulate it? Flippers profit off of player trying to make fast gold. If people think A-net controlling how many item you can put on TP would help prices you are wrong. It will have the opposite effect and greatly reduce the supply of items. It would shock the TP system.

It wouldn’t effect supply at all. Flippers don’t generate any supply, they just remove from the supply and then put it back for more money. Both supply and demand would be identical with or without them.

Something which has always bothered me about the economical system in games like this one is that playing the market is often more beneficial then playing the game, and in the case of GW2 this happens to be true.

Having an economical system which rewards those who spend all day trading more than players who run even the hardest content undermines the entire reward structure of a game. In an ideal game players who spend their time completing the most difficult content or become a skilled and respected player in PvP should have the most to show in terms of wealth and luxury items. But instead those players are dirt poor compared to those who sit next to the trading post all day.

A system like making anything bought from the TP account bound would shut down players ability to profit from the trading post, but I’m unsure if it would be the healthiest route to take.

Regardless, the reward structure of GW2 is not working as originally intended (what happened to all areas of the game being equally rewarding and why did legendaries turn from showing player accomplishment to pure wealth) and the trading structure only furthers that issue, allowing players to use the marker to gather more wealth than those who play normally and purchase the most prestigious items with that wealth.

Let’s travel to a world with a TP that blocks duplicate items, stacks sales fees, and is otherwise rendered unusable to the flip crowd…

dream sequence

I have just gotten a third Yakkington’s pants drop. One I have equipped, the other I sold, this third one I can salvage, destroy, or vendor. I salvage the pants. I am left with leather I don’t want but can’t sell (already sold my one leather on the TP), a rune I don’t want but can’t sell, and some mats. I deposit the mats and go to do some crafting. I have enough mats to make two Carrion and one Knights hats. I make them, I can now sell one Carrion and one Knight hat on the TP. The TP has 4 Knights hats listed at 40g apiece (because there isn’t a ton of Knights hats being sold any longer, so this specific hat becomes much more uncommon, and thus, worth WAY more) and 6 Carrion hats at 20g apiece.

While waiting for somebody to buy my really expensive hats, I try to decide what to do with the other piece of Carrion gear. I must salvage it, for the vendor value is far below what I would have to spend on the TP for mats (since selling fees stack, nobody sane is selling stacks of mats any more because it loses money). The resulting mats are almost enough for me to craft another piece of gear, but I can’t afford to buy any of the missing components off the TP because my super expensive Knights hat has yet to find a rich buyer.

/dream sequence

Whatever your opinion of flipping may be, a world with a crippled TP should be an obvious nightmare. Everything would become MORE expensive because it is more scarce. Trying to buy anything as a lowbie would be absolutely impossible. Instead of a disparity between rich flippers and poor mob farmers, you would instead see a TP where nobody can afford anything. Want to run the Frostgorge train for a few hours to afford one or two ectos?

All the prices would initially fall (from the initial super inflated first-posting price) because somebody, somewhere needs to get gold, but the second one person actually sells a precursor or brings some gem-to-gold money, the ridiculously expensive items would sell and suddenly there is a market created at a level where 99.999% of players can’t pay.

I don’t even wanna think about what happens to gem prices if gem-to-gold is the only way to buy anything.

Bri.8354:

Having an economical system which rewards those who spend all day trading more than players who run even the hardest content undermines the entire reward structure of a game.

It’s not an economical system, it’s simply a trading post for unwanted goods with the alternative is selling the item for a pittance to a vendor or simply deleting it.

Now the side effect of a trading post is that players who want cash for their item immediately or simply don’t care about maximizing the amount of cash they get, and conversely is willing to spend more for immediate delivery of an item instead of waiting for a lower bid be filled, creates an opportunity for players who are willing to put cash up front to buy goods that they think they can sell later for a profit (because otherwise why bother?).

Without them if you are looking to sell an unwanted item you better hope someone is looking for a “fair” price. Otherwise you will have to wait for such a buyer to come along or accept a pittance from the vendor just to get it out of your inventory.

It’s only because of the sheer volume of players dumping items onto the TP for a quick coin and free inventory space that these “player vendors” can earn the amount of money they do. A few copper profit times thousands of items per day can add up quickly and in the background, still letting them play the game like everyone else.

Re: Preventing reselling on the trading post
(prepare for wall of economic text)

There are a number of reasons why this is not a good idea, but for the sake of brevity I’m just going to touch on two of them.

1) Making everything sold on the TP account bound significantly reduces flexibility and dynamism of player decision making.

Here, I’ll give you an example: Say you want to craft the legendary staff Bifrost, which among other things requires 250 unidentified dyes. Now, you have two choices. You can wait until you have enough gold to buy the stack, or you can buy them over time as you accumulate money. Let’s say you choose the first path. Since many people are accumulating gold at the same rate (which has now been standardized a bit), they will be in the position to buy the stack at the same time. So all of a sudden, the price of the unidentified dyes has increased (with demand), and so you’re forced to farm some more gold. You thus realize that you should have been buying the dyes over time, when they were cheaper. But this too has problems in a world where you can’t resell. Notably, once you’ve invested in some of the dyes, you have no choice but to keep buying more, because you can’t change your mind and relist. So, you’re locked into creating that legendary, even if your taste or goals have changed.

But wait, it gets worse. Because you can’t change your mind and cut your losses by dumping on the TP, you’re forced to buy the remainder of the dyes on TP (or else painfully grind them out). The market will realize this, and the price will increase because you’re caught in a bad situation where those dyes you have are valueless to you without more, and others can’t unload them to keep the price down. So there’s little downward pressure on the price. (Sure, anet could just increase drop rates, but this requires them to pay incredibly close attention to every market and combination of mats, something I’ll discuss later in point two.)

The opposite effect can occur as well. Let’s say you want to craft that new ascended armor that is soon to be released. Well, before you know the recipe ingredients you’re unlikely to invest in mats, because if you buy the wrong ones you can’t resell them. So you decide to wait, no one buys mats, and the price stays low. All of a sudden, the recipe is released and everyone wants the ingredients, so the price spikes, preventing you from crafting the item. Had you been able to resell, you would have been able to buy earlier. So would have others. This would have smoothed out the peaks and troughs and allowed there to always be a market for items, both when they are in low and high demand. This is important as it provides a self correcting force in the market, and prevents items from getting too cheap or too expensive. This is also one of the open market’s most incredible and amazing functions, and takes major pressure off the developer.

The point here is that removing the flexibility providing by reselling can have serious effects on both prices and player enjoyment (by preventing them from changing their minds, or by annoying them if a better skin arrives when they are invested in another). Now, the developer could of course try to remedy this by carefully balancing the supply, demand, and accessibility of goods, but this leads me to my second point.

(continued in next post)