Guild Wars 2

Wanze.8410:

Borghal.1635:

Wanze.8410:

And John Smith already deemed your argument invalid in his first post in this topic.

I think I may have hijacked the topic a bit -imo it certainly should be renamed after all these pages – I don’t mean to argue that traders influence the market in a bad way nor that they should be stopped. I agree there’s too much movement for a small-ish group to influence it. Nor do I believe TP trading should be stop. For that matter, it cannot be stopped, as you pointed out. It’s just a feature of the market.

I was merely agreeing with phys and trying to make the case that players ought to have more than one “most efficient” opportunity and that if the “best” one – as seems to be the opinion of a lot of people – is one that is outside of the core gameplay, it is not a good thing and basically discourages players to… actually play the game if they want to save up money for that darn precursor and rather try their hand at trading instead.

And there are more than one way to reach your goals. Basically the profits to be gained on the tp are blown way out of proportion by some people here. Basically the best way to obtain gold is to buy it with gems. If I put my account wealth into proportion of hours played, i made about 1$ per hour. Your arguement might be valid, i this game was pay to play but as long as it is financed by micro transactions and you pay for free after the purchase fee, your argument is simply invalid.

my TP profits are not exageratted, they are estimated and approximate, but im actually lowballing here. You guys seem to forget i have done this. I have used the TP and various other hardcore farming mechanics to make money in the past. I’m not some guy who is incapable of making TP money. I just recognize, its bad for the game.

how much do you think someone makes in a day of a normal planned playthrough by arena net? lets say spending 2 hours completing a map. well lets say they have 15 hearts, they may find 2 or 3 chests (most chests arent near hearts) Well i just did it the other day on my engineer, i made probably 30 silver in gold, maybe 60 silver in materials. thats 90 silver in an hour for core gameplay.

I have also played the merchant, not even trying to be hyper effecient, my goal was turning over items with ineffeciencies fast and often. In that same time frame i made probably around 16-22 gold. farming the champ train was tedious and boring, but including materials i was making around 10-15 gold in two hours. Now if i had more money, i would have been able to make even more on the TP, there were some markets i didnt have enough initial investment to ride out on. I had to do more risky or slower selling markets because while with 100 gold on hand i could only make 8-11 gold and hour or about 10% of my capital, with 1000 gold i could take safer and more consistent markets that pay out more consistently, doing things that only get me like 5% gains per hour. but 5% of 1000 is 50 gold an hour. I also couldnt jump into risky but highly profitable markets like precursor creation like i could if i had 5000 gold (making on average 20% of my initial investment back.

Point is, it makes the game suck, any second i am not doing the most effecient activity is a waste of time. Jump puzzles? All of the content they should be trying to get me to go back and do, mini dungeons, open world fights, are not worth it. Harder and more interesting dungeons? 1.7 gold in about 35 minutes if played as the devs said they wanted it to be played.

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

Borghal.1635:

Wanze.8410:

And John Smith already deemed your argument invalid in his first post in this topic.

I think I may have hijacked the topic a bit -imo it certainly should be renamed after all these pages – I don’t mean to argue that traders influence the market in a bad way nor that they should be stopped. I agree there’s too much movement for a small-ish group to influence it. Nor do I believe TP trading should be stop. For that matter, it cannot be stopped, as you pointed out. It’s just a feature of the market.

I was merely agreeing with phys and trying to make the case that players ought to have more than one “most efficient” opportunity and that if the “best” one – as seems to be the opinion of a lot of people – is one that is outside of the core gameplay, it is not a good thing and basically discourages players to… actually play the game if they want to save up money for that darn precursor and rather try their hand at trading instead.

And there are more than one way to reach your goals. Basically the profits to be gained on the tp are blown way out of proportion by some people here. Basically the best way to obtain gold is to buy it with gems. If I put my account wealth into proportion of hours played, i made about 1$ per hour. Your arguement might be valid, i this game was pay to play but as long as it is financed by micro transactions and you pay for free after the purchase fee, your argument is simply invalid.

my TP profits are not exageratted, they are estimated and approximate, but im actually lowballing here. You guys seem to forget i have done this. I have used the TP and various other hardcore farming mechanics to make money in the past. I’m not some guy who is incapable of making TP money. I just recognize, its bad for the game.

how much do you think someone makes in a day of a normal planned playthrough by arena net? lets say spending 2 hours completing a map. well lets say they have 15 hearts, they may find 2 or 3 chests (most chests arent near hearts) Well i just did it the other day on my engineer, i made probably 30 silver in gold, maybe 60 silver in materials. thats 90 silver in an hour for core gameplay.

I have also played the merchant, not even trying to be hyper effecient, my goal was turning over items with ineffeciencies fast and often. In that same time frame i made probably around 16-22 gold. farming the champ train was tedious and boring, but including materials i was making around 10-15 gold in two hours. Now if i had more money, i would have been able to make even more on the TP, there were some markets i didnt have enough initial investment to ride out on. I had to do more risky or slower selling markets because while with 100 gold on hand i could only make 8-11 gold and hour or about 10% of my capital, with 1000 gold i could take safer and more consistent markets that pay out more consistently, doing things that only get me like 5% gains per hour. but 5% of 1000 is 50 gold an hour. I also couldnt jump into risky but highly profitable markets like precursor creation like i could if i had 5000 gold (making on average 20% of my initial investment back.

Point is, it makes the game suck, any second i am not doing the most effecient activity is a waste of time. Jump puzzles? All of the content they should be trying to get me to go back and do, mini dungeons, open world fights, are not worth it. Harder and more interesting dungeons? 1.7 gold in about 35 minutes if played as the devs said they wanted it to be played.

So what do you really want?

phys.7689:

Point is, it makes the game suck, any second i am not doing the most effecient activity is a waste of time. Jump puzzles? All of the content they should be trying to get me to go back and do, mini dungeons, open world fights, are not worth it. Harder and more interesting dungeons? 1.7 gold in about 35 minutes if played as the devs said they wanted it to be played.

As someone else in the thread said, fun is subjective. If fun for you is making the most money as quickly as possible, then playing the TP is probably the best route to that goal. If standing at the BLTC trader all day and researching prices bores you to tears, you don’t have to do it. Most players aren’t into that and they would rather do what they find fun, such as running dungeons or farming champions and events, and when their bags are full they sell the loot and continue doing what they find fun.

Again, no one can show that there is a problem with the way the TP works, because there is no problem. Something will always be faster than other methods of reaching a specific goal, or easier, or more fun. Some people find the TP easier and more fun, others find the champion train or WvW or PvP more fun. They get to make the choice for themselves, and Anet gives them plenty of options.

Wanze.8410:

So what do you really want?

For someone that knows and cares about rewards for a mmorpg to make this mmorpg more rewarding (or at least seem) for the mass of it’s players. In that way we support the lifeblood of this game and keep it coursing through the game’s veins. More players=a better mmorpg for everyone.

tolunart.2095:

phys.7689:

Point is, it makes the game suck, any second i am not doing the most effecient activity is a waste of time. Jump puzzles? All of the content they should be trying to get me to go back and do, mini dungeons, open world fights, are not worth it. Harder and more interesting dungeons? 1.7 gold in about 35 minutes if played as the devs said they wanted it to be played.

As someone else in the thread said, fun is subjective. If fun for you is making the most money as quickly as possible, then playing the TP is probably the best route to that goal. If standing at the BLTC trader all day and researching prices bores you to tears, you don’t have to do it. Most players aren’t into that and they would rather do what they find fun, such as running dungeons or farming champions and events, and when their bags are full they sell the loot and continue doing what they find fun.

Again, no one can show that there is a problem with the way the TP works, because there is no problem. Something will always be faster than other methods of reaching a specific goal, or easier, or more fun. Some people find the TP easier and more fun, others find the champion train or WvW or PvP more fun. They get to make the choice for themselves, and Anet gives them plenty of options.

Why is the TP which is not something the game was marketed for, or promoted for, the main means of achieving endgame goals?

And why is item obtaining designed around TP merchant playstyles and earning.

I wouldnt have a problem with the TP if it didnt effect the game.

Anet decided they wanted to force people to use the TP as much as possible. They decided to make gold the most important thing for achieving goals. This means they have to use gold to incentivize playing the game as they intended. Right now TP earns way more. than any type of healthy playing by a large margin.

It makes endgame goals, something you best work towards achieving by playing the TP.

As for what do i want, i want the game to be more rewarding in all facets, i want their to be reasons to explore the world, to do hard fights, and kill things in the world. The nature of the gold standard and TP profit being high as well as item/reward design being focused on what the tp produces leads to really bad gameplay reward designs.

And thats how TP profits unbalance effects the world, it makes them design content around what a TP player would do. It makes working towards most endgame goals about playing the TP. It creates a class disparity based on playstyle.

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

Borghal.1635:

Wanze.8410:

And John Smith already deemed your argument invalid in his first post in this topic.

I think I may have hijacked the topic a bit -imo it certainly should be renamed after all these pages – I don’t mean to argue that traders influence the market in a bad way nor that they should be stopped. I agree there’s too much movement for a small-ish group to influence it. Nor do I believe TP trading should be stop. For that matter, it cannot be stopped, as you pointed out. It’s just a feature of the market.

I was merely agreeing with phys and trying to make the case that players ought to have more than one “most efficient” opportunity and that if the “best” one – as seems to be the opinion of a lot of people – is one that is outside of the core gameplay, it is not a good thing and basically discourages players to… actually play the game if they want to save up money for that darn precursor and rather try their hand at trading instead.

And there are more than one way to reach your goals. Basically the profits to be gained on the tp are blown way out of proportion by some people here. Basically the best way to obtain gold is to buy it with gems. If I put my account wealth into proportion of hours played, i made about 1$ per hour. Your arguement might be valid, i this game was pay to play but as long as it is financed by micro transactions and you pay for free after the purchase fee, your argument is simply invalid.

my TP profits are not exageratted, they are estimated and approximate, but im actually lowballing here. You guys seem to forget i have done this. I have used the TP and various other hardcore farming mechanics to make money in the past. I’m not some guy who is incapable of making TP money. I just recognize, its bad for the game.

how much do you think someone makes in a day of a normal planned playthrough by arena net? lets say spending 2 hours completing a map. well lets say they have 15 hearts, they may find 2 or 3 chests (most chests arent near hearts) Well i just did it the other day on my engineer, i made probably 30 silver in gold, maybe 60 silver in materials. thats 90 silver in an hour for core gameplay.

I have also played the merchant, not even trying to be hyper effecient, my goal was turning over items with ineffeciencies fast and often. In that same time frame i made probably around 16-22 gold. farming the champ train was tedious and boring, but including materials i was making around 10-15 gold in two hours. Now if i had more money, i would have been able to make even more on the TP, there were some markets i didnt have enough initial investment to ride out on. I had to do more risky or slower selling markets because while with 100 gold on hand i could only make 8-11 gold and hour or about 10% of my capital, with 1000 gold i could take safer and more consistent markets that pay out more consistently, doing things that only get me like 5% gains per hour. but 5% of 1000 is 50 gold an hour. I also couldnt jump into risky but highly profitable markets like precursor creation like i could if i had 5000 gold (making on average 20% of my initial investment back.

Point is, it makes the game suck, any second i am not doing the most effecient activity is a waste of time. Jump puzzles? All of the content they should be trying to get me to go back and do, mini dungeons, open world fights, are not worth it. Harder and more interesting dungeons? 1.7 gold in about 35 minutes if played as the devs said they wanted it to be played.

So what do you really want?

a better game design, that rewards people for doing things that accentuate the games strengths. Feel cool and rewarded when you achieve a goal, while doing the interesting things the game has to offer.

As long as the TP merchant playstyle is the dominant(by a large margin) one for progressing towards endgame goals, all of the rest of the game, which is the vast majority of it, will be less rewarding in comparison.

The game was designed for casual players. The TP provides a means for a player to do nearly any activity in the game and still have a chance to get most of the “stuff” that they want. Take that away and hardcore players who grind away at specific content until they get what they want have a huge advantage over casual players with limited time and specific interests.

Casual players generally have more money to spend on the game, but less time.

Hardcore players generally have more time to devote to the game, but less money.

It’s not hard to see why Anet chose to focus on the players who spend more money on the game, rather than those who spend more time on the game.

Subscription based games focus on players who will spend a little money over a long period of time because they are personally invested in the game. Cash shop games are interested in players who will spend more money to get the things they want right now. You might not like it, but that’s just the way it works.

tolunart.2095:

The game was designed for casual players. The TP provides a means for a player to do nearly any activity in the game and still have a chance to get most of the “stuff” that they want. Take that away and hardcore players who grind away at specific content until they get what they want have a huge advantage over casual players with limited time and specific interests.

Casual players generally have more money to spend on the game, but less time.

Hardcore players generally have more time to devote to the game, but less money.

It’s not hard to see why Anet chose to focus on the players who spend more money on the game, rather than those who spend more time on the game.

Subscription based games focus on players who will spend a little money over a long period of time because they are personally invested in the game. Cash shop games are interested in players who will spend more money to get the things they want right now. You might not like it, but that’s just the way it works.

I never said they should give all endgame items for goals that are unattainable by the masses.

And casual players cant actually get those things (without huge disproportionate time spending) without playing in the TP way. It doesnt have to be only hardcore playstyles. They can design account bound rewards that dont factor into the economy so they can give regular players more methods of working towards their goals.

They can design normal content to make things attainable through regular play. Do you really think halloween skins were designed in season 2 in a way that normal players can get it?
do you think anet figured people could gather 10000 rare materials? those descions were completely based around buying items on the TP to lower supply. Which is the perfect example of what im talking about. Best way to get halloween items? play the TP and buy the items. Playing the content they added? not a good idea at all.

I have 16 characters, half at max level, and I am a casual player who doesn’t run dungeons or gear in 100% zerker and so on… I know I don’t represent every player in the game but I’m pretty close to average in skill and dedication, and my wife is a lot more casual about it than I am. Neither of us have ever felt that our goals were out of reach without relying on the TP, it’s a shortcut, a means to an end, one tool among many to enhance our experience. But the game is in no way centered around it.

tolunart.2095:

I know I don’t represent every player in the game

ya you don’t. So why counter argument everything people complain.

Why can’t people complain about things they dont’ like.

If your not going to give a rat on how others felt. Maybe no one cares how you and your wife play the game.

laokoko.7403:

tolunart.2095:

I know I don’t represent every player in the game

ya you don’t. So why counter argument everything people complain.

Why can’t people complain about things they dont’ like.

If your not going to give a rat on how others felt. Maybe no one cares how you and your wife play the game.

Because other people don’t represent every player either. But I’m not the one demanding changes be made to the game for no better reason than “I don’t like it.”

Don’t present your opinions as though they were proven facts. If it was a fact than you’d be able to prove it, or at least back it up with something better than what your guildies said.

Finally, I don’t expect anyone to care about myself and my wife, but I can explain my experiences with the game as a counter-argument to someone else’s experiences with the game to show that there is more than one point of view. Anet makes decisions based on what’s good for the game, not what one person says or wants.

The forums are already weighted towards those who have complaints about the game because most people who are content or pleased with the game don’t have a motivation to demand changes or express opinions. So it’s important that the devs know that there are players who disagree with the complaints.

Of coarse people demand change because “they don’t like it”.

You are demanding other people to keep quiet because you don’t have a problem with it.

There are obviously many people complaining, that’s a fact. You dont’ have a proof most people are content too.

And my question is will you be personally upset if they make it harder to make money from TP? If you don’t, shouldn’t the dev change the direction since they’ll make other people happy but wont’ upset you too.

You have every right to complain if you dont’ want income from TP nerf. But if not why are you complaining about people complaining?

laokoko.7403:

There are obviously many people complaining, that’s a fact. You dont’ have a proof most people are content too.

What, five people?

I don’t need to have proof. JS said it himself, there is no evidence that what these people are complaining about is actually happening. He admits that he could be wrong, however, and invites them to offer proof of their claims. After 20-some pages, not a single statement of proof has been provided.

The fact that the game is working as intended is my proof.

tolunart.2095:

What, five people?

I don’t need to have proof. JS said it himself, there is no evidence that what these people are complaining about is actually happening. He admits that he could be wrong, however, and invites them to offer proof of their claims. After 20-some pages, not a single statement of proof has been provided.

The fact that the game is working as intended is my proof.

And how do YOU know what as intended is? JS saying that could also very well be an attempt to persuade us, really no reason to trust devs on such things. :-( Maybe their strategy is to allow low supply so the prices go that high. And then a select few will actually purchase that Legend or Dusk for some 200$ and it really is profitable for them, rather than taking the chance of 10x more people purchasing it for 20$ each, but they’re never gonna say what heir strategy on that is (FTR, paying as much for one item as the cost of the whole game is I think still insane, but it would still be a lot better than what we have now)

tolunart.2095:

laokoko.7403:

There are obviously many people complaining, that’s a fact. You dont’ have a proof most people are content too.

What, five people?

I don’t need to have proof. JS said it himself, there is no evidence that what these people are complaining about is actually happening. He admits that he could be wrong, however, and invites them to offer proof of their claims. After 20-some pages, not a single statement of proof has been provided.

The fact that the game is working as intended is my proof.

Yep only 5 of us….lol There’s at least 5 new threads every day in the general section and a few here.

I find it rather hypocritical that you say you don’t need proof and then demand that others have it. (both are wrong btw)

JS only said that individuals are not effectively controlling markets. He never said anything about there not being a wealth gap or anything specific about player metrics. This is why he was mistaken when asking for proof. It is an impossible condition. That is something that is obvious. He was wrong to ask for it as are you.

Essence Snow.3194:

Yep only 5 of us….lol There’s at least 5 new threads every day in the general section and a few here.

I find it rather hypocritical that you say you don’t need proof and then demand that others have it. (both are wrong btw)

JS only said that individuals are not effectively controlling markets. He never said anything about there not being a wealth gap or anything specific about player metrics. This is why he was mistaken when asking for proof. It is an impossible condition. That is something I that is obvious. He was wrong to ask for it as are you.

Yes actually it is the same few people complaining all the time and yes the onus is on those bemoaning the current system to provide proof to back up their claims.

tolunart.2095:

laokoko.7403:

There are obviously many people complaining, that’s a fact. You dont’ have a proof most people are content too.

What, five people?

I don’t need to have proof. JS said it himself, there is no evidence that what these people are complaining about is actually happening. He admits that he could be wrong, however, and invites them to offer proof of their claims. After 20-some pages, not a single statement of proof has been provided.

The fact that the game is working as intended is my proof.

I think JS is talking about precursor manipulation. I don’t think people are manipulation the precursor because the profit isn’t even good since you need to consider the 15% tax.

I didn’t say anything besides people complaining about the economy and TP. And if your a game designer, you should actually care if people like your game or not.

I’m not even saying Anet should change it. I’m saying you should consider it because I dont’ think there are only 5 people complaining.

Fenrir.3609:

Yes actually it is the same few people complaining all the time and yes the onus is on those bemoaning the current system to provide proof to back up their claims.

Ah, the age old argument of “forums are no sample of popular opinion”. While that is true, don’t forget the other side of the coin – people won’t come here and write about things they don’t consider worthwile. So if you have multiple people coming to write about things, and on a forum for a game this big it doesn’t really matter if 5 or 50, there is clearly an issue to, at the very least, discuss. No point denying it.

Also btw. I came to the forums just yesterday – because of other matters. But having seen that others share my opinion on the state of the economy, I feel the need to support them. So, proof by contradiction, it is not the same few people ranting about it.

Fenrir.3609:

Essence Snow.3194:

Yep only 5 of us….lol There’s at least 5 new threads every day in the general section and a few here.

I find it rather hypocritical that you say you don’t need proof and then demand that others have it. (both are wrong btw)

JS only said that individuals are not effectively controlling markets. He never said anything about there not being a wealth gap or anything specific about player metrics. This is why he was mistaken when asking for proof. It is an impossible condition. That is something I that is obvious. He was wrong to ask for it as are you.

Yes actually it is the same few people complaining all the time and yes the onus is on those bemoaning the current system to provide proof to back up their claims.

So what’s so great about the current system?

I’m not even saying there is anything wrong with it. What so great about people making money so much easier on the TP. What do anet have to gain to make TP so easy to gain money.

I think most ftp games try to make people grind so they’ll get tired of it and spend real money. But what does Anet have to gain to make flipping so easy to gain money.

I personally like the system now because I’m sick of farming. And investing help me cut down on the farming. I just dont’ understand what Anet have to gain by making flipping/investing such a easy way to gain huge money.

phys.7689:

a better game design, that rewards people for doing things that accentuate the games strengths. Feel cool and rewarded when you achieve a goal, while doing the interesting things the game has to offer.

As long as the TP merchant playstyle is the dominant(by a large margin) one for progressing towards endgame goals, all of the rest of the game, which is the vast majority of it, will be less rewarding in comparison.

You are rewarded for doing non TP activities and you can gain luxury endgame items via non TP activities.

I’m all for giving engdame items out for skilled play btw, i’m 100% behind doing that. But again, it would be out of reach of the average/casual player unless they dedicated their ig time to improving/doing what they needed to do. Which let’s face it, most won’t do because it is easier to come on the forums and qq about the supposed mean old “zerkers”, “elitists”, “TP barons” etc.

phys.7689:

Why is the TP which is not something the game was marketed for, or promoted for, the main means of achieving endgame goals?

And why is item obtaining designed around TP merchant playstyles and earning.

I’d really like a comment on these questions from John Smith or an actual gameplay dev seeing as how it relates to gameplay. Similar comments have been brought up many times in the past without any comment.

Fenrir.3609:

I’m all for giving engdame items out for skilled play btw, i’m 100% behind doing that. But again, it would be out of reach of the average/casual player unless they dedicated their ig time to improving/doing what they needed to do.

Yeah well anet has made comments about trying to get players to improve, this would be the way. Plus if they actually did it they’d have far less criticism.

Fenrir.3609:

I’m all for giving engdame items out for skilled play btw, i’m 100% behind doing that. But again, it would be out of reach of the average/casual player unless they dedicated their ig time to improving/doing what they needed to do.

It already IS out of reach of casual players. If you play max one hour per day or so, how long before you get… say 300g for a Dreamthistle skin? I have 310 hours over 240 days so in average I would say I am a casual. Yet in all that time I have amassed less than half of the required funds by playing causally i.e. experienced all of the game’s content in equal measure.

Borghal.1635:

Fenrir.3609:

I’m all for giving engdame items out for skilled play btw, i’m 100% behind doing that. But again, it would be out of reach of the average/casual player unless they dedicated their ig time to improving/doing what they needed to do.

It already IS out of reach of casual players. If you play max one hour per day or so, how long before you get… say 300g for a Dreamthistle skin? I have 310 hours over 240 days so in average I would say I am a casual. Yet in all that time I have amassed less than half of the required funds by playing causally i.e. experienced all of the game’s content in equal measure.

If getting a skin is so important to you, why don’t you spend a bit of your play time making gold?

I can make 7-8g+ an hour from pve (others can make a lot more). Now it would take me 38 hours to get that skin. Leaving me 272 hours to play whatever the heck I wanted with the skin I wanted.

Or I would set aside 10 minutes of my hour to grab an additional gold or two, then spend the rest of my 50 minutes doing what I wanted. Again I would have the skin and loads of free play time.

Or I would set up some TP orders and do what I wanted to do for the hour, again I would have the skin and loads of free play time.

Now adding in a skill based option does this: You don’t have to farm, or flip or otherwise step away at any point from the activities you like and you can still get the skin so long as you are within the top bracket of players doing said activity. And i’m all for that.

laokoko.7403:

I personally like the system now because I’m sick of farming. And investing help me cut down on the farming. I just dont’ understand what Anet have to gain by making flipping/investing such a easy way to gain huge money.

Well, ArenaNet didn’t make using the TP an easy way to gain huge money; making “easy” money on the TP is a direct result of all those other players who want to buy or sell now. There isn’t a thing ArenaNet can do to make those players not want to buy or sell now, so the only way to limit TP revenue is to ban people from buying and selling.

Fenrir.3609:

If getting a skin is so important to you, why don’t you spend a bit of your play time making gold?

It’s not that it’s so important. It just is important overall – this game IS about cosmetics in the endgame. They are goals that the game designers would have you work towards when you get the max gear (I’m talking exotics. Ascended/Legendary is wayyyy down below in the effort/satisfaction department) – that’s a quote from some of the developer interviews, I forget which sadly.

Fenrir.3609:

I can make 7-8g+ an hour from pve (others can make a lot more). Now it would take me 38 hours to get that skin. Leaving me 272 hours to play whatever the heck I wanted with the skin I wanted.

I would love to get a few pointers on how to make that much, if you can… or perhaps just redirect me so that we don’t spam the thread. Really. Dungeons are unstable due to PUGs and even if you run within 30 minutes it’s hardly gonna be more than 4g an hour bonus gold included.
Open world bosses spawn every 15 minutes now and I usually end up with one or two rares worth 60s total and a bunch of 1-5s trash. So again that’s close to 4g an hour…
Oh and I have only 64% MF despite basically salvaging everything blue and green since hitting 80… :- /

mtpelion.4562:

Well, ArenaNet didn’t make using the TP an easy way to gain huge money; making “easy” money on the TP is a direct result of all those other players who want to buy or sell now. There isn’t a thing ArenaNet can do to make those players not want to buy or sell now, so the only way to limit TP revenue is to ban people from buying and selling.

There IS a way to fix that, however. They could make it so that the value of an item (i.e. the prices vendors buy it at) correlates to the current highest buy offer and/or make selling stuff to vendors from inventory page just as depositing collectibles.

I don’t see them doing that, however :-( Not that there’s inherently anything wrong with playing the TP… but what I propose would be a wonderful gold sink thus allowing for more gold income from other activities of the game that keep begin nerfed :-)

Borghal.1635:

mtpelion.4562:

Well, ArenaNet didn’t make using the TP an easy way to gain huge money; making “easy” money on the TP is a direct result of all those other players who want to buy or sell now. There isn’t a thing ArenaNet can do to make those players not want to buy or sell now, so the only way to limit TP revenue is to ban people from buying and selling.

There IS a way to fix that, however. They could make it so that the value of an item (i.e. the prices vendors buy it at) correlates to the current highest buy offer and/or make selling stuff to vendors from inventory page just as depositing collectibles.

I don’t see them doing that, however :-( Not that there’s inherently anything wrong with playing the TP… but what I propose would be a wonderful gold sink thus allowing for more gold income from other activities of the game that keep begin nerfed :-)

If you would be able to sell an item to a vendor at the same price as the highest buy offer on the tp, that item gets destroyed instead of staying in the economy and new gold is created by the vendor. How is this a gold sink?
Its also easily exploitable. I just buy out all stock of an item then make a buy order for 10k gold for that item and sell the stock i just bought for 10k gold each to the vendor.

GG

laokoko.7403:

I think JS is talking about precursor manipulation. I don’t think people are manipulation the precursor because the profit isn’t even good since you need to consider the 15% tax.

Nope.

John Smith.4610:

It’s possible I’ve missed it and I apologize if that’s true, but I haven’t seen any evidence or even a correct hypothesis that a group of the rich can negatively effect your gameplay experience. I think a clear set of ideas would help me understand and respond to the issue.

P.S. Don’t say luxury goods or I will refer you to the first rule of the tautology club.

Borghal.1635:

Fenrir.3609:

I’m all for giving engdame items out for skilled play btw, i’m 100% behind doing that. But again, it would be out of reach of the average/casual player unless they dedicated their ig time to improving/doing what they needed to do.

It already IS out of reach of casual players. If you play max one hour per day or so, how long before you get… say 300g for a Dreamthistle skin? I have 310 hours over 240 days so in average I would say I am a casual. Yet in all that time I have amassed less than half of the required funds by playing causally i.e. experienced all of the game’s content in equal measure.

MMOs run 24 hours a day, every day. They don’t take off weekends or holidays, aside from the occasional maintenance or crash the servers are always up. This means that, generally speaking, someone with more time to devote to the game will always have more stuff than you. Smart players make the most of the time they have to set goals and work towards them. If it takes 100 hours to get what you want, someone who can spend 10 hours a day will get there faster than someone who can spend 3 hours a week, but they can both get there.

The TP just makes it easier, that’s its purpose. Making it harder for some players but not others is based in jealousy, not fairness. You have the same opportunities that anyone else has to make the TP work for you. Do events, farm crafting mats that are in demand, salvage rares for ectos, and let the TP work for you while you’re offline and log in to collect your money.

The biggest mistake comes in thinking that the game is a race, and you have to get the new shiny before everyone else does. When someone can run the race 10, 15, 20 hours in a day while you can only run for 2 hours, there’s very little chance that you can catch up. RNG helps to even out the race (he has more chances than you to get valuable loot, but anyone get a good drop) but you can’t demand that the other guy runs while chained to a cement block because you feel the need to get the shiny first. He’s most likely going to get there before you do, so accept it and work towards it at the pace you find comfortable.

morrolan.9608:

phys.7689:

Why is the TP which is not something the game was marketed for, or promoted for, the main means of achieving endgame goals?

And why is item obtaining designed around TP merchant playstyles and earning.

I’d really like a comment on these questions from John Smith or an actual gameplay dev seeing as how it relates to gameplay. Similar comments have been brought up many times in the past without any comment.

He actually commented many times on these subjects, here is one of them:

John Smith.4610:

Here is my stance on this subject:
The TP is part of Tyria and is a part of the game. Spending your time learning to interact with it is a fine way to play the game if that’s what you enjoy. It has ups and downs (including no exp, karma, achievements).

The amount of money to be made on the TP is finite. There is no way it can’t be, the TP only ever sinks money, it never creates it. The TP offers convenience to trade outside of equilibrium pricing, and if a player decides to step in and take the time and effort to consume that trade and push the trade into equilibrium, that is great for the economy. It pushed prices towards equilibrium, provides a service to those who want convenience and sinks money all at the same time.

Trading takes skill, and lots of it, it cannot be argued otherwise and here is why. Because the profit is so limited, the profit has to be split between all the people effectively trading. The lower the skill cap, the more people trading effectively, the less profit individuals make until there’s no longer a real market. If one argues that there is money to be made, then you are arguing that skill is involved.

Wanze.8410:

If you would be able to sell an item to a vendor at the same price as the highest buy offer on the tp, that item gets destroyed instead of staying in the economy and new gold is created by the vendor. How is this a gold sink?
Its also easily exploitable. I just buy out all stock of an item then make a buy order for 10k gold for that item and sell the stock i just bought for 10k gold each to the vendor.
GG

Well, I did say correlate, not equal to. It could, for example, scale by an appropriate logarithm. Also as JS said no one person can manipulate the market by himself, doesn’t that imply one person is incapable of buying out an item’s whole supply?

I wasn’t thinking clearly when I said it’s a gold sink, lol :-D It was more of a response to people complaining and saying that it’s the people themselves who create the problem by just selling to the highest buyer (and thus allowing the buyer to get rich from others). This way people could get their money right up as they’re used to from vendors and every single player RPG ever, not lose out and create less room for “exploitation” – though I think most players aren’t even aware that it might hurt them in the long run :-)

Borghal.1635:

Wanze.8410:

If you would be able to sell an item to a vendor at the same price as the highest buy offer on the tp, that item gets destroyed instead of staying in the economy and new gold is created by the vendor. How is this a gold sink?
Its also easily exploitable. I just buy out all stock of an item then make a buy order for 10k gold for that item and sell the stock i just bought for 10k gold each to the vendor.
GG

Well, I did say correlate, not equal to. It could, for example, scale by an appropriate logarithm. Also as JS said no one person can manipulate the market by himself, doesn’t that imply one person is incapable of buying out an item’s whole supply?

I wasn’t thinking clearly when I said it’s a gold sink, lol :-D It was more of a response to people complaining and saying that it’s the people themselves who create the problem by just selling to the highest buyer (and thus allowing the buyer to get rich from others). This way people could get their money right up as they’re used to from vendors and every single player RPG ever, not lose out and create less room for “exploitation” – though I think most players aren’t even aware that it might hurt them in the long run :-)

Buying out the whole supply of an item doesnt equal manipulation, its a simple interaction with the market, nothing else. The supply of each item on the trading post also isnt the whole market for that item, actually the mayority of items is stored in peoples inventory, not the tp. And as long as a player cant reach those supplies, he cant manipulate a market.

Can you explain me how removing a gold sink (tp taxes), removing item supply (items sold to vendor leave the economy but stay when sold on the tp) and adding a huge gold faucet (the vendor creates gold, the tp does not) will have a positive effect on the game economy?

So what IS manipulation? If you manage to buy out the entire market for one item, you’ve effectively monopolized it because you can probably just keep doing that and sell for whatever price you wish, right?

But anyway, it’s more of a socialist notion of averaging out wealth and I was just expanding upon the claim that some people hoard too much wealth, without trying to analyze how true that claim is. You know how politicians boast about high average wages and then among friends and others you chat with most will tell you they are well below that glorified average wage, simply due to how ‘average’ works? It’s like that and here you can see it in that you have to grind hundreds of hours for just one high-demand item.
Only in a game it’s kinda silly, especially one that has it’s endgame centered around how you look.

Borghal.1635:

So what IS manipulation? If you manage to buy out the entire market for one item, you’ve effectively monopolized it because you can probably just keep doing that and sell for whatever price you wish, right?

But anyway, it’s more of a socialist notion of averaging out wealth and I was just expanding upon the claim that some people hoard too much wealth, without trying to analyze how true that claim is. You know how politicians boast about high average wages and then among friends and others you chat with most will tell you they are well below that glorified average wage, simply due to how ‘average’ works? It’s like that and here you can see it in that you have to grind hundreds of hours for just one high-demand item.
Only in a game it’s kinda silly, especially one that has it’s endgame centered around how you look.

Well, i would argue that market manipulation is unintended gameplay to influence supply or demand of an item. The demand cant really be influenced by manipulators but supply can by increasing supply throw exploits (duplicating items, farm bots etc.)
People often call it market manipulation if someone buys up large stock of an item or prices for an item spike but its simple supply and demand. If you want to monopolize a market, you have to hold the majority or all supply of the item but as I already mentioned, you cant get to the supply that is stored in peoples inventory, unless they post it on the tp. You also cant control how items a being created. If it was a temporary item, it could get reintroduced, if its a very rare drop, supply still trickles in.

Borghal.1635:

So what IS manipulation? If you manage to buy out the entire market for one item, you’ve effectively monopolized it because you can probably just keep doing that and sell for whatever price you wish, right?

But anyway, it’s more of a socialist notion of averaging out wealth and I was just expanding upon the claim that some people hoard too much wealth, without trying to analyze how true that claim is. You know how politicians boast about high average wages and then among friends and others you chat with most will tell you they are well below that glorified average wage, simply due to how ‘average’ works? It’s like that and here you can see it in that you have to grind hundreds of hours for just one high-demand item.
Only in a game it’s kinda silly, especially one that has it’s endgame centered around how you look.

As Wanze said, buying out the current supply on the TP is not controlling the market. For every item listed for sale there are many many more sitting in players’ banks, even if it’s an item that is rare or has been removed from loot drops. Yes, you can buy all five Dusks from the TP and relist them at twice the price. But in 24 hours another dozen Dusks will be created from thin air and several of those will be listed for much less and sell long before yours.

You’re talking about the nature of the game, not a situation created by any individual or group. Rare items like discontinued skins, claim ticket skins, precursors and Legendaries are valuable because they are rare. Players want them because they think it will somehow set them above the masses as the elite class of the game, but it doesn’t. If rare items were much more common in the game, such as if there were twice as many precursor drops or discontinued skins were added to the gem store for anyone to buy at a fixed price, these players wouldn’t want them any more.

As long as there are more people who want an item than the quantity of the item in the game world, the price will continue to rise. Players line up to throw money at each one offered for sale and whoever throws the most money at it wins. If you can throw more money at it than everyone else, you can have it. It doesn’t matter where the money comes from, dungeon speed runs, lucky drops, buying gems, or learning how to play the TP, it’s all the same money. And the people who play harder, smarter and longer than you will always have more of it.

There is a balance anet has yet to find, which is prolly a big reason for the extending amount of concerns about the TP and the rewards mechanism. Many players that i know have left due to the stuff they want being out of reach or the feeling that getting those things are a grindy process. The current implementation of the megaserver actually makes most of the world stuff very trivial when you simply toss number at them. This really does kill the feeling of achievement, even when you do get a high priced item as a drop. Threads like this will continue to pop up and be some of the most popular threads simply because things are out-of-whack and value can only be gauged by the TP for the large majority of items. Wealth disparity will continue to impact players since the model is unregulated and most of the poor are uninformed about how to be competitive in the market.

I’m not sure if it’s possible, but it might be worth looking at the rate of which valuable items are merchanted, versus what the rate is on the TP.

It also might be worth looking into expanding the ability to “win through challenge” some of the gemstore skins and the black lion ticket items, if you don’t want to take the time to expand the amount of rare skins through other means.

The trading company is where all the worth is at, people aren’t making gold running events and dungeons without supplementing their earnings selling back to the market, this is actually where income equality really impacts the player base.

Just a thought here – how damaging would it be for the game, if, for example, the longest path of a dungeon would drop a Black lion claim scrap (maybe once per day, once per week, whatever).
Clear alternate way to get some of the stuff that sells for so much on the TP without needing to grind gold. And since they’re account bound, nobody could make a fortune off of that, only player determination required.

Or one in each jumping puzzle. And so on… you know, ways to get more stuff in a more specific way than to “grind for gold” or “pray to RNG gods”.

Borghal.1635:

Just a thought here – how damaging would it be for the game, if, for example, the longest path of a dungeon would drop a Black lion claim scrap (maybe once per day, once per week, whatever).
Clear alternate way to get some of the stuff that sells for so much on the TP without needing to grind gold. And since they’re account bound, nobody could make a fortune off of that, only player determination required.

Or one in each jumping puzzle. And so on… you know, ways to get more stuff in a more specific way than to “grind for gold” or “pray to RNG gods”.

Giving out ticket scraps for dungeons would hurt Anets income from key sales.

Wanze.8410:

Borghal.1635:

Just a thought here – how damaging would it be for the game, if, for example, the longest path of a dungeon would drop a Black lion claim scrap (maybe once per day, once per week, whatever).
Clear alternate way to get some of the stuff that sells for so much on the TP without needing to grind gold. And since they’re account bound, nobody could make a fortune off of that, only player determination required.

Or one in each jumping puzzle. And so on… you know, ways to get more stuff in a more specific way than to “grind for gold” or “pray to RNG gods”.

Giving out ticket scraps for dungeons would hurt Anets income from key sales.

I’d be curious to know how many players are farming for keys. For a couple hours worth of playtime a day, you can easily pull in 14 keys a week (more if you optimize the run) versus how many people buy keys out of the store. Realistically, it takes a lot of chests to get enough tickets to actually get a skin in general, most of the rest of the stuff out of the chests are meh (IMO obviously).

munkiman.3068:

Wanze.8410:

Borghal.1635:

Just a thought here – how damaging would it be for the game, if, for example, the longest path of a dungeon would drop a Black lion claim scrap (maybe once per day, once per week, whatever).
Clear alternate way to get some of the stuff that sells for so much on the TP without needing to grind gold. And since they’re account bound, nobody could make a fortune off of that, only player determination required.

Or one in each jumping puzzle. And so on… you know, ways to get more stuff in a more specific way than to “grind for gold” or “pray to RNG gods”.

Giving out ticket scraps for dungeons would hurt Anets income from key sales.

I’d be curious to know how many players are farming for keys. For a couple hours worth of playtime a day, you can easily pull in 14 keys a week (more if you optimize the run) versus how many people buy keys out of the store. Realistically, it takes a lot of chests to get enough tickets to actually get a skin in general, most of the rest of the stuff out of the chests are meh (IMO obviously).

They would be better off farming gold and buying the skin on the tp, if they dont value the other stuff that drops from bl chests.

I think it’s just MMO envy. When I played my first MMO, Rift, I saw players walking around in endgame gear that was so much more impressive than the items I found while leveling. Glowing swords, staves with animated tentacles, elaborate robes and plate armor, riding monstrous mounts and robot horses instead of plain old brown and grey ones… it was a great motivation to learn how to play the game and progress through the levels until I could have gear like this for my toons.

It took several months to find a class I liked and get a toon to max level, but when I did I found that while the high-level gear was a lot nicer than starter equips, the most impressive stuff was reserved for a group beyond max level – raiders. I looked at some of the hoops players are forced to jump through for raiding, joining a guild and fighting for a spot, strange loot rules that favor some players over others, and generally just playing the game in ways I didn’t like just to get some cool looking stuff.

I was pretty disappointed that these things were held just out of reach, and I can see why some people would quit over it. But I got over it and decided to use the gear I had available to me to make my toons like the way I wanted them to and to play the game the way I wanted to.

I’ve heard of players dropping out from burnout after getting a Legendary weapon, and I can see why. Sure, they look nice, but the stats aren’t any better than exotics (now ascended) that are a lot easier to get. And skins like they offer through the gem store and BLTC tickets are just as impressive, and don’t require the kind of focus and sacrifice that a Legendary does.

So if you don’t have the means to get an ubercool skin for your greatsword, what’s the big deal? Just buy $10 worth of gems and get a supercool skin instead.

Wanze.8410:

They would be better off farming gold and buying the skin on the tp, if they dont value the other stuff that drops from bl chests.

And we’re back to “gold is the only reliable way of getting most stuff” :-( Why can’t more content be like the dungeon equipment. THAT makes it special – the fact that people know at first sight you had to do some “special” feat to obtain it, rather than the special status being granted by price… seems more fitting for a game about heroic deeds :-)

Borghal.1635:

Just a thought here – how damaging would it be for the game, if, for example, the longest path of a dungeon would drop a Black lion claim scrap (maybe once per day, once per week, whatever).
Clear alternate way to get some of the stuff that sells for so much on the TP without needing to grind gold. And since they’re account bound, nobody could make a fortune off of that, only player determination required.

Or one in each jumping puzzle. And so on… you know, ways to get more stuff in a more specific way than to “grind for gold” or “pray to RNG gods”.

Not sure what you’re getting at, the tickets are bound but the skins are not. I have often done “key runs” when I’m bored and save the tickets for when a new set of weapons come out. Then I can make a quick few hundred gold from the TP by selling the skins.

Since people run dungeons anyway for other rewards, they would just start doing this, except that 100x more tickets would be produced, oversupplying the market with weapon skins and driving the price down to the point where it’s not worth the effort any more.

tolunart.2095:

So if you don’t have the means to get an ubercool skin for your greatsword, what’s the big deal? Just buy $10 worth of gems and get a supercool skin instead.

Yeah but that wouldn’t be 10$ but 50-100$ at the current pricing and conversion rates. Part of the reason people complain.

tolunart.2095:

Not sure what you’re getting at, the tickets are bound but the skins are not. I have often done “key runs” when I’m bored and save the tickets for when a new set of weapons come out. Then I can make a quick few hundred gold from the TP by selling the skins.

Since people run dungeons anyway for other rewards, they would just start doing this, except that 100x more tickets would be produced, oversupplying the market with weapon skins and driving the price down to the point where it’s not worth the effort any more.

I’m getting at this – I would like a way to obtain more gear in ways other than just harvesting gold, similar to dungeon gear. Simple as that. EDIT Also don’t cling to details – I’m sure they would have no problem making it so that skins obtained via special “dungeon claim tickets” are account-bound or something like that, that’s not really an issue ;-)

By the way, how many chest do you open to get a ticket, since you do it often if I understand correctly?

Borghal.1635:

Wanze.8410:

They would be better off farming gold and buying the skin on the tp, if they dont value the other stuff that drops from bl chests.

And we’re back to “gold is the only reliable way of getting most stuff” :-( Why can’t more content be like the dungeon equipment. THAT makes it special – the fact that people know at first sight you had to do some “special” feat to obtain it, rather than the special status being granted by price… seems more fitting for a game about heroic deeds :-)

It’s simply a design choice. Anet designed the game to appeal to casual players, who have disposable income but don’t have the time to spend 100s of hours farming giant crabs to get the exclusive soulbound-on-pickup Giant Crab Shell Shield. So instead everything they do translates to gold which translates back to loot.

This was how the game was intended to work. An avalanche of complaints by hardcore players at launch led to the development of non-casual content like ascended gear and fractals, which led to a similar avalanche of complaints that these things were too hard and too exclusive.

So, Anet throws the hardcores a bone now and then, but 95% of the game is focused on the casual player who doesn’t want challenging content and exclusive rewards.

Borghal.1635:

tolunart.2095:

So if you don’t have the means to get an ubercool skin for your greatsword, what’s the big deal? Just buy $10 worth of gems and get a supercool skin instead.

Yeah but that wouldn’t be 10$ but 50-100$ at the current pricing and conversion rates. Part of the reason people complain.

I’m not talking about Legendaries. An 800 gem weapon skin is $10.

^^ How do you buy Fused with gems? Is the claim ticket drop from BLC that reliable that you can say it takes 800 gems worth?

tolunart.2095:

So, Anet throws the hardcores a bone now and then, but 95% of the game is focused on the casual player who doesn’t want challenging content and exclusive rewards.

I do not think 95% of skins are easily obtainable by spending real money. As I already mentioned, the price of high-end skins would translate to something like 50-100$. That may work in the U.S. but for example in my country the 100$ would be 10% of the average monthly wage. On a single skin. In a game. I don’t see many “causals” investing into a game like that.

Borghal.1635:

I’m getting at this – I would like a way to obtain more gear in ways other than just harvesting gold, similar to dungeon gear. Simple as that. EDIT Also don’t cling to details – I’m sure they would have no problem making it so that skins obtained via special “dungeon claim tickets” are account-bound or something like that, that’s not really an issue ;-)

By the way, how many chest do you open to get a ticket, since you do it often if I understand correctly?

This would be a 180-degree-turn from the direction Anet has been going since launch. As in, don’t hold your breath. If they wanted to do that they would have developed the dungeon and karma merchants a lot more.

I don’t do it a lot, only when I’m bored, and I’ve been playing other games the last few months while waiting for the big update and LS 2: the Revenge of Scarlet.

Average is probably a scrap every 3-4 chests and a ticket every 10-12. I’ve pulled maybe 2 full tickets and 50 scraps. Someone really dedicated to this and who doesn’t have a day job could probably do three runs an hour and get that every other day.

Borghal.1635:

^^ How do you buy Fused with gems? Is the claim ticket drop from BLC that reliable that you can say it takes 800 gems worth?

tolunart.2095:

So, Anet throws the hardcores a bone now and then, but 95% of the game is focused on the casual player who doesn’t want challenging content and exclusive rewards.

I do not think 95% of skins are easily obtainable by spending real money. As I already mentioned, the price of high-end skins would translate to something like 50-100$. That may work in the U.S. but for example in my country the 100$ would be 10% of the average monthly wage. On a single skin. In a game. I don’t see many “causals” investing into a game like that.

Kasmeer’s staff. Rox’s Quiver.

Skins =/= the game.

We are not having the same conversation here. You don’t have to spend a penny on the game beyond the starter cost of the account.

Only an idiot would keep buying keys until he gets X tickets. Granted, there are a lot of people doing just that (check out gem store sales in the quartly earnings reports) but the only reason why I did key runs was because it was easy and fun to do when I didn’t have anything else going on.

tolunart.2095:

Kasmeer’s staff. Rox’s Quiver.

Skins =/= the game.

We are not having the same conversation here. You don’t have to spend a penny on the game beyond the starter cost of the account.

Well… I would argue that for GW2, Skins = endgame goals. How else do you evolve your character? You’ve unlocked all skills, have the best gear, to make it look good is all that remains.

Borghal.1635:

tolunart.2095:

Kasmeer’s staff. Rox’s Quiver.

Skins =/= the game.

We are not having the same conversation here. You don’t have to spend a penny on the game beyond the starter cost of the account.

Well… I would argue that for GW2, Skins = endgame goals. How else do you evolve your character? You’ve unlocked all skills, have the best gear, to make it look good is all that remains.

That’s your choice. I’ve put together great looks with 25s worth of blue gear and dyes from the TP.

My fun =/= your fun.