Guild Wars 2

One of the biggest problems for people trying to make money on the TP are people who list items for insignificantly lower prices than the previous low in order to get their item sold first.
On higher-end items, that 1c difference is completely and utterly meaningless, no one will even bat an eye at the difference, but it still gets the cheaper one sold first.

A way to kill this ridiculous behavior would be to prevent people from listing items for an insignificant amount less than the previous listing (say, 1 or 2 percent).
This would force people that undercut prices in order to cut in line to actually have to notice the loss.

i don’t think that will help the issue on lower end items though, take orichalcum ore as an example… it’s a common traded item which everyone is trying to sell for 1c under each other, resulting in it going from 3.80s to 3.30s and eventually even lower if no one buys them at 3.30s

It’s part of market stabilization. Since the market is still new there are going to be fluctuations like that constantly (price drop on orich ore dropping from 3.8 to 3.3 in an afternoon for example). It will eventually level out at a lower price once the market has settled and flooded with each particular item. As far as the 1 copper drop just to make their’s sell faster; that’s normal and to be expected. I agree that the difference is nominal on just the one case, but others will undercut him and so on until the price of the item is more stable.

honestly on highly traded items it’s not worth it to undercut anyway, you only lose money because even matching the lowest seller will result in a quick sale, and even setting it a bit higher will lead to a sale eventually.
Yeah I think it’s a problem though for more rare items because you can’t exactly take yours off and undercut the guy who undercut you because you would lose another 5% so you just sit on yours hoping it will one day sell or take a loss and remove it a few weeks later

I wouldn’t mind if that 5% was refundable after you sell an item or remove it from sales, but keep the other 10% there when it does sell. Seems a bit much to take a double-hit both for trying to sell something and then for actually selling it, Where buyers pretty much get free reign

This would not work as smoothly as you think. Undercutting is part of any market, live with it. Prices will balance out eventually and undercutting will not throw prices up and down quite as much. There are ways to combat undercutting and not get hurt by it, or even benefit from it.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

One of the biggest problems for people trying to make money on the TP are people who list items for insignificantly lower prices than the previous low in order to get their item sold first.
On higher-end items, that 1c difference is completely and utterly meaningless, no one will even bat an eye at the difference, but it still gets the cheaper one sold first.

A way to kill this ridiculous behavior would be to prevent people from listing items for an insignificant amount less than the previous listing (say, 1 or 2 percent).
This would force people that undercut prices in order to cut in line to actually have to notice the loss.

TP is designed for speculations, so it will stay that way The faster is item is sold, the faster will be bought another one, so profit/hour be higher. And if you’re talking about crafting – crafting is not for profit, it’s just for … something. Money sink, perhaps.

“how do we kill free market competition? I don’t like it.”

Colorofviolence.7964:

“how do we kill free market competition? I don’t like it.”

Yes, because selling something for 0.1% less because it forces yours to be bought before the other guy is “competition”.
Hey that gives me a great idea! I’m gonna go open a car dealership and sell cars identical in every way, shape, and form to my nearby competition, but for 1 penny less!
I’ll turn over my inventory WAY faster than that other guy!

^ car dealerships don’t work like that anyway lol. It’s called negotiations. Plus, that’s EXACTLY what competition is. I work in electronic retail sales and people will come in and decide to buy across the street for $5 less when the item is like, $140. That’s just the way people are – they want a good deal, and less always looks better to them.

Regardless, undercutting is just how the world works, so it makes sense to happen in a game. That’s just how it is, you’ll have to deal with it. Plus, the faster that 1c undercutter sells their items, the faster the next buyer will see the next in line. For certain items it does matter, but usually not.

Take crafting components, for example. Let’s say small scales. They’re currently going for around 2s in the TP last I checked. Say I post 20 of them, that’s 40s. Say I post them for 1.9s instead. Does it make a big financial difference to me? 20c is hardly worth complaining over. Does it get bought any faster? A little, but not really, considering there are far more orders than supply right now, and usually only one or two sellers have any available at any given time (I’m one of them). How does it benefit me? I’m impatient, and that’s about it. But on regular items such as drops, I match lowest.

Now would I get annoyed if I were trying to sell a 10g+ item, which isn’t bought anywhere near as often as mats? Sure, maybe. But that’s entirely different. Items like that people aren’t trying to sell as fast as possible – they’re just trying to sell them right now, since not that many people are running that much money yet.

It’s not a problem at all.

You want to sell it quickly and lose a bit of money? Undercut.

You want to delay gratification a bit but up the profits slightly? Sell over.

Balanced split? Sell at the median.

Of course you need to balance any of these choices with demand, value, and personal need, but if you can’t grasp this, you shouldn’t be anywhere near the “sell items” page.

Materials and crafted items completely opposite in context of gw2 market. They are always needed, at least while someone in gw2 is crafting at all. And crafted items, can be sold only once to one character. Why anyone would need another coat of the same type and level?
Supply>>>demand, so price goes down. By 1c at a time.

Because of 5% list tax, and impossibility to change(lower) price for listed item without losing already small profit, crafting is completely useless(unprofitable).

starii.3865:

I work in electronic retail sales and people will come in and decide to buy across the street for $5 less when the item is like, $140. That’s just the way people are – they want a good deal, and less always looks better to them.

$5 is an amount of money people actually value, and on a $140 item it’s still a 3.5% discount.
Do you honestly believe people would care if your $140 item was $0.01 cheaper than your competitions’?

starii.3865:

Take crafting components, for example. Let’s say small scales. They’re currently going for around 2s in the TP last I checked. Say I post 20 of them, that’s 40s. Say I post them for 1.9s instead. Does it make a big financial difference to me? 20c is hardly worth complaining over.

That’s a 2s difference btw, not 20c.
Even if you meant 1s99c, for a 20c loss on your part, you’re actually proving my point.
You get to the front of the line for a price that you don’t even remotely care about.

Imposter.1986:

You want to sell it quickly and lose a bit of money? Undercut.

I’m fine with undercutting if it actually makes a remotely significant impact on your profit.
1c on a 10s item does not.
But it gets you to the front of the line, in front of people who can’t change their own price to get in front of your ludicrously insignificant difference without paying a hefty 5% fee.

Maxster.4521:

Materials and crafted items completely opposite in context of gw2 market. They are always needed, at least while someone in gw2 is crafting at all. And crafted items, can be sold only once to one character. Why anyone would need another coat of the same type and level?
Supply>>>demand, so price goes down. By 1c at a time.

Because of 5% list tax, and impossibility to change(lower) price for listed item without losing already small profit, crafting is completely useless(unprofitable).

Someone in a starter zone can still make multiple silver for every basically-insignia’d copper armor piece they sell and have a gold within an hour or two if they really wanted to in current market conditions. If you find crafting to be useless for the purposes of money-making you’re not crafting the right objects at the right times.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

I’m fine with undercutting if it actually makes a remotely significant impact on your profit.
1c on a 10s item does not.
But it gets you to the front of the line, in front of people who can’t change their own price to get in front of your ludicrously insignificant difference without paying a hefty 5% fee.

That’s risk/reward in action. There’s no getting around it, even with minimum differences between prices. No formula for doing that is sustainable.

Someone in a starter zone can still make multiple silver for every basically-insignia’d copper armor piece they sell and have a gold within an hour or two if they really wanted to in current market conditions. If you find crafting to be useless for the purposes of money-making you’re not crafting the right objects at the right times.

So, how much you made on crafting exactly?

Imposter.1986:

That’s risk/reward in action. There’s no getting around it, even with minimum differences between prices. No formula for doing that is sustainable.

How is it “risk” to post a reasonably expensive item for 1c less than someone else, ensuring that your item is bought before theirs?

Also, forcing people to either list at the same price or at a significantly lower price would keep prices from dropping as much. It stops those stupid little undercutting price wars that steadily drive the price down, with the people that were already there being screwed by the listing fees if they want to repost, because instead of constantly undercutting each others prices with differences no one cares about, but eventually add up, if you want to undercut, you’d need to actually take a somewhat significant loss.

This is something I hate in other games, and I would always go for the guy who has a nice rounded figure of 10s, instead of the guy selling for 9.99s.
Here though you are forced to buy the cheapest no matter what, so that isn’t an option.
I try and price myself down by 50c or 1s stages to get a quicker sale, but the trading post move so fast you then find some guy has dumped 5 on ahead of you for 1c less.
So I would like either the listing fee to be refunded on a removed sale, buyer to be able to pick which stack he buys from, or a minimal undercut range.

Azimov.5128:

So I would like either the listing fee to be refunded on a removed sale, buyer to be able to pick which stack he buys from, or a minimal undercut range.

The option to change your price after listing (obviously charge a fee if it’s increased, wouldn’t terribly mind if you didn’t get refunded for decreasing though) would also work there.

Buy everything that is undercutting you. Then re-list it.

Azimov.5128:

This is something I hate in other games, and I would always go for the guy who has a nice rounded figure of 10s, instead of the guy selling for 9.99s.
Here though you are forced to buy the cheapest no matter what, so that isn’t an option.
I try and price myself down by 50c or 1s stages to get a quicker sale, but the trading post move so fast you then find some guy has dumped 5 on ahead of you for 1c less.
So I would like either the listing fee to be refunded on a removed sale, buyer to be able to pick which stack he buys from, or a minimal undercut range.

Your not forced to buy the cheapest. You can select the next box up in price.

Buy everything that is undercutting you. Then re-list it.

Sure. Great way to waste more money.

skaaz.4281:

Your not forced to buy the cheapest. You can select the next box up in price.

Could have sworn I tried that and it didn’t let me deselect the one before, this was a while back when TP was first up an being a bit glitchy though.
Shall try again if it is possible to not support this practice on higher priced items.

Why are you upset about being undercut? Why didn’t you set YOUR price to what you expected to be undercut by? Celestia, smite thy marketeers that abuse the privilege of setting their own price, for no one is allowed to do so so long as it inconveniences you.

There’s a reason why Wal-Mart reduces prices by an insignificant amount between one penny to twenty cents. Competition is everywhere, and you really just need to learn how to deal with it.

Freyar.3254:

Why are you upset about being undercut? Why didn’t you set YOUR price to what you expected to be undercut by? Celestia, smite thy marketeers that abuse the privilege of setting their own price, for no one is allowed to do so so long as it inconveniences you.

There’s a reason why Wal-Mart reduces prices by an insignificant amount between one penny to twenty cents. Competition is everywhere, and you really just need to learn how to deal with it.

So, Wal-Mart is paying tax 5% of the set price every time they decide to lower price or list a new commodity?
I guess such comments come from those, who haven’t even tried trading on TP.

Maxster.4521:

Freyar.3254:

Why are you upset about being undercut? Why didn’t you set YOUR price to what you expected to be undercut by? Celestia, smite thy marketeers that abuse the privilege of setting their own price, for no one is allowed to do so so long as it inconveniences you.

There’s a reason why Wal-Mart reduces prices by an insignificant amount between one penny to twenty cents. Competition is everywhere, and you really just need to learn how to deal with it.

So, Wal-Mart is paying tax 5% of the set price every time they decide to lower price or list a new commodity?
I guess such comments come from those, who haven’t even tried trading on TP.

I buy and sell with such large numbers that canceling items and reposting them does little to my over all profit.

Yes, I may lose 5%-20%, but I sell so quickly by constantly undercutting I actually make more money by constantly moving inventory.

Maxster.4521:

So, Wal-Mart is paying tax 5% of the set price every time they decide to lower price or list a new commodity?
I guess such comments come from those, who haven’t even tried trading on TP.

Wal-Mart does have to pay (through labor or otherwise) to change prices, but it just simply doesn’t matter to them in the long run. Part of me thinks availability is far too high, which is causing an overall lower price for materials in the long run which reduces the “wiggle room” for people trying to sell.

You can’t dictate what I put my price up for, and if you decide to put it up for 1.00.00, I’ll put it up for 0.99.99 because I can forgo a copper just to make sure it leaves my list.

Maybe automatic pricing might be useful in that regard.

Instead of entering a price manually you’d be given the options:

1. Meet highest buyer
2. Match highest lowest seller
3. Undercut lowest seller (automatically undercuts by 5%)
4. Manual price (must be above current lowest seller)

It would make finding a market price more convenient while eliminating the minuscule undercutting.

I LOL at people who don’t like competition. The OP doesn’t realize that he probably undercut other people first, then got mad that it happened to him.

>OP

Let me ask you a question unrelated to this game, just because I’m curious at how you’d answer. If you have a car, and the gas station 100 miles away has their price 10 cents cheaper than the one down your street, would you drive there to save money on filling your tank?

Dee Jay.2460:

Maybe automatic pricing might be useful in that regard.

Instead of entering a price manually you’d be given the options:

1. Meet highest buyer
2. Match highest lowest seller
3. Undercut lowest seller (automatically undercuts by 5%)
4. Manual price (must be above current lowest seller)

It would make finding a market price more convenient while eliminating the minuscule undercutting.

Why should I take a 5% hit when I’m deciding to put mine up for my price? If you wanted to sell before me, you could have lowered your price before hand.

I can see the undercut lowest seller actually creating more market issues. The highest buyer and lowest seller orders actually give you some valuable data. You can typically tell where the floor(not the hard set floor) is and where the ceiling is for a particular item. So you can guess what the most you will get and what the lest you will be able to buy a particular item.

I have no problem with people who don’t like competition…But when they demand change because they can’t handle competition, and did not think of the negative impact that such changes will create…nor did they think about the good things that they enjoy from competition (buying a full level 80 rare set for less than 1g), that I have a problem with. We can try to educate them on the logic of it…but I think it’ll just fall on deaf ears.

Tears… Welcome to Economic PvP. We former Eve Online players know this meta-game all to well. Wait till you get some serious demand for say 50,000 units copper ore.

For those of use that fought in the Trit and Moon Mineral wars, your tears are… delicious.

eve players are OP on economic PVP…needs nerfing…lol

I ran into this issue this weekend, but on the buy side. It was annoying, but it is short term.

Eventually, the market (on popularly traded items at least) will get to a point where the sell orders are lists at almost exactly 15% over the buy orders. They will fluctuate some, but the spread should remain relatively consistent. Once that happens, making 1c differences won’t happen regularly.

Just give the market some time to stabilize.

Wazabi.1439:

eve players are OP on economic PVP…needs nerfing…lol

How’d you know I played EvE-O?

I graduated EvE Online Core Economics and all I got was this Tritanium.

I don’t believe I’ve seen that much complain on the market in eve….

Wazabi.1439:

I don’t believe I’ve seen that much complain on the market in eve….

Not really. People tell you to shut it and move on to better markets if Jita isn’t your thing. (Though the economics of Jita was always fun especially with Goon’s impact..) I think part of the problem here is that it’s one market over ALL the servers.

I think it’s the lack of economics understanding of most people. GW2 strikes most as a casual game, and Eve as a hardcore. People who goes into Eve fully knows what to expect and are ready to take the challenge…can’t say the same for GW2.

TP takes a 15% cut. If you don’t like being undercut set your prices accordingly. If your still getting undercut sell it to the vendor you will be better off.

I wish buyers had to FIND the best deal themselves instead of automatically buying the cheapest one for them. This exact implementation wouldn’t work for guild wars, but setting up your own personal shop somewhere in the world has been fun in a few other games.

Freyar.3254:

Wazabi.1439:

I don’t believe I’ve seen that much complain on the market in eve….

Not really. People tell you to shut it and move on to better markets if Jita isn’t your thing. (Though the economics of Jita was always fun especially with Goon’s impact..) I think part of the problem here is that it’s one market over ALL the servers.

Yep, basically, we’re all trading in Jita. Station trading for the win!

EVE online traders = OP. Nerf them!

illgot.1056:

Maxster.4521:

Freyar.3254:

Why are you upset about being undercut? Why didn’t you set YOUR price to what you expected to be undercut by? Celestia, smite thy marketeers that abuse the privilege of setting their own price, for no one is allowed to do so so long as it inconveniences you.

There’s a reason why Wal-Mart reduces prices by an insignificant amount between one penny to twenty cents. Competition is everywhere, and you really just need to learn how to deal with it.

So, Wal-Mart is paying tax 5% of the set price every time they decide to lower price or list a new commodity?
I guess such comments come from those, who haven’t even tried trading on TP.

I buy and sell with such large numbers that canceling items and reposting them does little to my over all profit.

Yes, I may lose 5%-20%, but I sell so quickly by constantly undercutting I actually make more money by constantly moving inventory.

Of course. I’m doing the same, when speculating.
And with crafting, for example

leatherworking
prices for mats in
tier 2
Vigorous outlaw cloack
6.48

3 bone shards
1.65 – 1.30
495-390

3 thread
16
48
5 leather
15 – 9
75 – 45
2 bolt of wool
39 – 31
78 – 62

listing fee
32.4
max
696 c
profit -48
-listing fee -48-32.4= -80.4
-sell tax -80.4-64.8=-128.8
min
545
profit 103 (15%)
-listing fee 103-32.4=70,6
-sell tax 70.6-64.8=5.8

if reset price once for 2c lower(for undercut)
lf 101-32.4-32.4=36.2
st 36.2-64.8=-28.6

Vigorous outlaw cloak (master)
6.85
8 bone shard
1.65 – 1.30
1320 – 1040
8 thread
128
5 leather
15-9
75-45
2 bolt of wool
39-31
78-62

max
1601
profit
-916
min
1275
profit
-590

most profitable t2 green atm -
Strong outlaw pants(master)
15.85
8 vial of thin blood
1.69 – 1.38
1352 – 1104
7 thread
112
4 leather
15-9
60 – 36
2 bolt of wool
39 – 31
78 – 62

listing fee
79.25
max
1602
profit -17
-listing fee -17-79.25= -96.25
-sell tax -96.25-158.5=-274.75
min
1314
profit 271(17%)
-listing fee 271-79.25=191.75
-sell tax 191.75-158.5=33.25

if reset price once for 2c lower(for undercut)
lf 269-79.25-79.25=110.5
st 110.5-158.5=-48

So, TP only useful for speculating.

Freyar.3254:

Maxster.4521:

So, Wal-Mart is paying tax 5% of the set price every time they decide to lower price or list a new commodity?
I guess such comments come from those, who haven’t even tried trading on TP.

Wal-Mart does have to pay (through labor or otherwise) to change prices, but it just simply doesn’t matter to them in the long run. Part of me thinks availability is far too high, which is causing an overall lower price for materials in the long run which reduces the “wiggle room” for people trying to sell.

You can’t dictate what I put my price up for, and if you decide to put it up for 1.00.00, I’ll put it up for 0.99.99 because I can forgo a copper just to make sure it leaves my list.

So, your example was completely irrelevant to the topic. Good.

Idgarad.6105:

Tears… Welcome to Economic PvP. We former Eve Online players know this meta-game all to well. Wait till you get some serious demand for say 50,000 units copper ore.

For those of use that fought in the Trit and Moon Mineral wars, your tears are… delicious.

In EvE, you can adjust price for a small fixed fee(to lower price) every 5 minutes, here – you can’t. So resetting order cuts your profit by 5%. In EVE, you can sell your own crafted goods, and fast, without losing 5% for every price change.
So, market here is more beneficial to speculators.

Tallenn.9218:

I ran into this issue this weekend, but on the buy side. It was annoying, but it is short term.

Eventually, the market (on popularly traded items at least) will get to a point where the sell orders are lists at almost exactly 15% over the buy orders. They will fluctuate some, but the spread should remain relatively consistent. Once that happens, making 1c differences won’t happen regularly.

Just give the market some time to stabilize.

That is correct for items with constant demand. Not for weapons and armor.

Freyar.3254:

Wazabi.1439:

I don’t believe I’ve seen that much complain on the market in eve….

Not really. People tell you to shut it and move on to better markets if Jita isn’t your thing. (Though the economics of Jita was always fun especially with Goon’s impact..) I think part of the problem here is that it’s one market over ALL the servers.

Living in lowsec more fun than Jita

It’s like half the people responding to this thread didn’t actually read my post.
Here, let me clarify for you:
I DO NOT CARE ABOUT UNDERCUTTING.
It’s there, it’s a part of everything, I DON’T CARE.
But 1c on a high price item is NOT undercutting. It’s an utterly irrelevant difference, the same kitten price in ANYONE’S mind, and yet that tiny difference can be applied to get you in front of everyone else.
Oh, and Freyar: How am I supposed to set my price to below what a person that comes in and undercuts me set theirs to? Oh, I drop my price by 2c from what I originally planned to sell it for. They put it up for another 1c below that. Still an unbelievably irrelevant difference to anyone involved, but he STILL goes first.

You’re not thinking it through. Look at it from the perspective of someone wanting to game the system:

So you list your item and someone comes along and lists for 1c cheaper, ensuring that their item is purchased first, without a meaningful decrease in price.

But then someone else comes along and lists for 1c cheaper again. And another 20 people do the same. Now the price is starting to move a little more.

So okay, being the smart person that I am, I decide to out-wait everyone and list last, so that my item gets sold first. But how long should I wait? What if someone comes and buys the next cheapest listing whilst I am still sitting on my item?

At what point does “waiting” to “get my item sold first” actually end up making my item take longer to sell?

So you see, it’s not obvious what the winning strategy is. You can list right away, and maybe a buyer will buy your item before someone undercuts you. You can wait to undercut someone else, but maybe someone’s item will get listed and sold before you manage to notice and undercut him.

Or maybe 2 people will come along at the same time and buy both items and it’s all moot.

Ultimately it’s pretty much luck.

This is a problem because people can ‘Buy’ for under vendor price.

Lots of players don’t even know about the invisible ‘Sale Tax’ that they are often paying or not paying. Ever notice some random money in your ‘Pick Up’ tab that wasn’t there 5 seconds ago? Yea. Put 2 and 2 together.

What’s really happening is really non-money-savvy players are using the Trade Post because the model is easy to use. They are posting things practically vendor price or buying for lower than vendor price and what these (what I consider BUGS) bugs are doing are is letting TRADE professionals (players who play games JUST to play economy) take over the trade post. You can see it happening quite clearly, things like copper ore have been taken over by mass distributors who are trying to regulate the price.

IMO The trade post needs a clean wipe, all items returned to sellers and all orders canceled. The devs need to place in limitations on how much a buyer/seller can post or buy. That way a take over is largely impossible. Definitely need some limits on the trade imo.

SookmiNahw: Why?

You didn’t really explain why having Trade professionals a bad thing.

Is it because they are making coin and you aren’t? If that is the case, you can join them.

How is copper ore been taking over by mass distributors? I haven’t seen this yet. Could you provide details?

Edited to add a quote by John Smith:

John Smith

I don’t see much evidence of people controlling markets entirely, nor do I see any evidence people are having trouble making money on the TP with some time and effort.

Do you have any specific items you think are being manipulated?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/The-economy-is-turning-into-a-speculation-market/first#post158551

I second that. There seems to be some sort of envy or something going on, I’m not sure why SookmiNahw is so bothered. I personally dont consider it a problem:

In most games, people who have knowledge and pay attention/effort can gain an advantage over others who do not. The market is a legitimate part of gameplay, so gaining an advantage in it via knowledge and effort is fine.