TP-flipping, the bane of Guild Wars 2?

TP-flipping, the bane of Guild Wars 2?

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Posted by: Wanze.8410

Wanze.8410

phys you are overestimating how long it takes to fill or sell a stack of orders even on high volume items. Sure you can interleave multiple items so there is always a stack ready to be posted but then you aren’t doing anything else other than camp on the TP. What works when trying to flip one item isn’t necessarily scalable across many.

Also a great many items that have a high volume, aren’t profitable at all flipping. Gathered or farmed materials that have a high supply volume are all losses when you take the 15% fee/tax into account. And those that have a reasonable spread are crafted mats which cost more to make than the cost of raw materials so it’s more profitable if you gathered the raw mats yourself to sell them rather than craft and sell the finish good. If nobody is selling, flippers don’t have a supply of them that they can get stacks of “quickly” to turn around.

ahh, you are mistaking me, the purpose of that post wasnt to say people really make that type of money, it was to show that the time spent actually inputing data into the TP isnt the cap/limit or main factor for deciding how much you can make.

As the other poster said, the main limit on profits is velocity of sales, available capital, and the amount of market ineffeciency.

Point being you can make a lot of money with simple buy/sell orders without having to update them more than once a day. Sure, you can make more money by actively playing the market, adapting to whats going on in that instant, etc. but thats the difference from making 5% a day and making 50% a day.

notice, if you have 1000 gold making 5% a day in 20 minutes(of actual work inputting buy/sell orders), thats way more than any one else can make in 20 minutes of actual work. (and more than most players make in a day)

You are picking cherries here.
I can also say that the guy, who got a precursor drop, only had to kill 1 mob for it which took a couple of seconds. And he didnt have to invest 1000g before killing that mob.

Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.

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Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

phys you are overestimating how long it takes to fill or sell a stack of orders even on high volume items. Sure you can interleave multiple items so there is always a stack ready to be posted but then you aren’t doing anything else other than camp on the TP. What works when trying to flip one item isn’t necessarily scalable across many.

Also a great many items that have a high volume, aren’t profitable at all flipping. Gathered or farmed materials that have a high supply volume are all losses when you take the 15% fee/tax into account. And those that have a reasonable spread are crafted mats which cost more to make than the cost of raw materials so it’s more profitable if you gathered the raw mats yourself to sell them rather than craft and sell the finish good. If nobody is selling, flippers don’t have a supply of them that they can get stacks of “quickly” to turn around.

ahh, you are mistaking me, the purpose of that post wasnt to say people really make that type of money, it was to show that the time spent actually inputing data into the TP isnt the cap/limit or main factor for deciding how much you can make.

As the other poster said, the main limit on profits is velocity of sales, available capital, and the amount of market ineffeciency.

Point being you can make a lot of money with simple buy/sell orders without having to update them more than once a day. Sure, you can make more money by actively playing the market, adapting to whats going on in that instant, etc. but thats the difference from making 5% a day and making 50% a day.

notice, if you have 1000 gold making 5% a day in 20 minutes(of actual work inputting buy/sell orders), thats way more than any one else can make in 20 minutes of actual work. (and more than most players make in a day)

You are picking cherries here.
I can also say that the guy, who got a precursor drop, only had to kill 1 mob for it which took a couple of seconds. And he didnt have to invest 1000g before killing that mob.

well i was speaking of average trades, most times, your gonna aim for at least 8% per flip.
to make 5% isnt really being daring as far as flipping goes. and there is a lot of items with that type of spread.
just glancing at items less than or equal to 1 silver with a margin of 10 or greater, i see a lot, and some of them are often traded items. I wont mention the names in case some peoples have a market for them.

and thats on the cheap low profit per click side, honestly as you get more money, you would look for greater cost items which give you more per click (if your goal is to make the most money with one set of trades per day)
Anyhow, the point is, tp earning is primarily effected by velocity, start up capital, and what ineffeciencies you can find, whereas farming is generally pretty directly correlated to time invested.

and im not talking about the master flippers, or the guys who spend all day on the TP here, your average safe, low risk flipper can make 5% a day very easily. Now im not saying that is nothing, i have very little desire to play the TP unless i have a direct goal at the time, and i dont really enjoy it even when im doing it (well picking up gold is nice, but ehhh) spending 30 minutes each day to manage 1000 gold to get 50 more gold, when i have no need for it?
ehhh i wouldnt even bother, so apparently 30 min is too long for me, but problem is, when it comes time to obtain something of value(that is related to the TP), a guy with the TP skillset/playstyle is going to get anything that is of value faster than anyone with a similar level of expertise in any other playtype. Not only that, but people who can earn that type of money will be the ones most high end goods will be marketed to (until they have had their fill)

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Posted by: Wanze.8410

Wanze.8410

You are picking cherries here.
I can also say that the guy, who got a precursor drop, only had to kill 1 mob for it which took a couple of seconds. And he didnt have to invest 1000g before killing that mob.

well i was speaking of average trades, most times, your gonna aim for at least 8% per flip.
to make 5% isnt really being daring as far as flipping goes. and there is a lot of items with that type of spread.
just glancing at items less than or equal to 1 silver with a margin of 10 or greater, i see a lot, and some of them are often traded items. I wont mention the names in case some peoples have a market for them.

and thats on the cheap low profit per click side, honestly as you get more money, you would look for greater cost items which give you more per click (if your goal is to make the most money with one set of trades per day)
Anyhow, the point is, tp earning is primarily effected by velocity, start up capital, and what ineffeciencies you can find, whereas farming is generally pretty directly correlated to time invested.

and im not talking about the master flippers, or the guys who spend all day on the TP here, your average safe, low risk flipper can make 5% a day very easily. Now im not saying that is nothing, i have very little desire to play the TP unless i have a direct goal at the time, and i dont really enjoy it even when im doing it (well picking up gold is nice, but ehhh) spending 30 minutes each day to manage 1000 gold to get 50 more gold, when i have no need for it?
ehhh i wouldnt even bother, so apparently 30 min is too long for me, but problem is, when it comes time to obtain something of value(that is related to the TP), a guy with the TP skillset/playstyle is going to get anything that is of value faster than anyone with a similar level of expertise in any other playtype. Not only that, but people who can earn that type of money will be the ones most high end goods will be marketed to (until they have had their fill)

Your example takes for granted that the 1000g that you put into many different buy orders get all filled, which isnt the case.

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Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.

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Posted by: Aberrant.6749

Aberrant.6749

This thread has been made many times. If you want something right away then buy it for the buy it now price. If you don’t mind waiting, then put in an order. Flipping is good, it brings prices to an equilibrium faster.

Tarnished Coast
Salvage 4 Profit + MF Guide – http://tinyurl.com/l8ff6pa

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Posted by: Lothirieth.3408

Lothirieth.3408

Nah, flipping isn’t the problem. The reward structure in which so many things cost vast amounts of money instead of being able to do challenging content to earn a drop is the problem.

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Posted by: Wanze.8410

Wanze.8410

Nah, flipping isn’t the problem. The reward structure in which so many things cost vast amounts of money instead of being able to do challenging content to earn a drop is the problem.

Thats because the TP is the most challenging content.

Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.

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Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

Nah, flipping isn’t the problem. The reward structure in which so many things cost vast amounts of money instead of being able to do challenging content to earn a drop is the problem.

Thats because the TP is the most challenging content.

How would we measure the tp challenge versus say fractals 50? Also at what profit level does the TP become challenging? What about tp versus spvp? jumping puzzles? i find griffinrook run chest harder to do than tp merchanting (with bomb)

(edited by phys.7689)

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Posted by: Wanze.8410

Wanze.8410

Nah, flipping isn’t the problem. The reward structure in which so many things cost vast amounts of money instead of being able to do challenging content to earn a drop is the problem.

Thats because the TP is the most challenging content.

How would we measure the tp challenge versus say fractals 50? Also at what profit level does the TP become challenging? What about tp versus spvp? jumping puzzles? i find griffinrook run chest harder to do than tp merchanting (with bomb)

All that content you mentioned gives out unique rewards that are not available on the TP.

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Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.

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Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

Nah, flipping isn’t the problem. The reward structure in which so many things cost vast amounts of money instead of being able to do challenging content to earn a drop is the problem.

Thats because the TP is the most challenging content.

How would we measure the tp challenge versus say fractals 50? Also at what profit level does the TP become challenging? What about tp versus spvp? jumping puzzles? i find griffinrook run chest harder to do than tp merchanting (with bomb)

All that content you mentioned gives out unique rewards that are not available on the TP.

griffinrook has unique rewards?

anyway the question is more that, how does that compare difficulty wise.
what level of mastery amounts to what type of earnings (in general)

like, for the sake of getting numbers how would you rate earning 20 gold per day on the TP if you have say 200 gold in terms of challenge.
What else would you say is difficult?

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Posted by: mtpelion.4562

mtpelion.4562

griffinrook has unique rewards?

Achievement points.

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Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

griffinrook has unique rewards?

Achievement points.

achievement points are ok, but i dont think they feel particularly rewarding for most people. I would say achievement points are more about keeping track of what you have and havent done in the game, rather than rewarding you.

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Posted by: mtpelion.4562

mtpelion.4562

griffinrook has unique rewards?

Achievement points.

achievement points are ok, but i dont think they feel particularly rewarding for most people. I would say achievement points are more about keeping track of what you have and havent done in the game, rather than rewarding you.

How is that any different from a unique skin though? They both reflect a virtual recognition of virtual accomplishment. Sure, AP may not be the showiest form of reward, but those chests pay off nicely when you add them up.

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Posted by: ProtoGunner.4953

ProtoGunner.4953

While TP-flipping is a way to play the game, I just have one problem: that playing the actual game is far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far less rewarding. I mean the comparison is kittening ridiculous. 1 hour of TP can net you hundreds of gold while 1 hour of actual gameplay (a dungeon, doing a couple of world bosses) nets you maybe 2 gold.

Just make the game more rewarding, maybe with just stuff, TP flippers cannot get. Like more skins that you CAN’T BUY IN THE GODkitten TP LIKE A kittenING LEGENDARY!!!!

‘would have/would’ve been’ —> correct
‘would of been’ —> wrong

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Posted by: Wanze.8410

Wanze.8410

Nah, flipping isn’t the problem. The reward structure in which so many things cost vast amounts of money instead of being able to do challenging content to earn a drop is the problem.

Thats because the TP is the most challenging content.

How would we measure the tp challenge versus say fractals 50? Also at what profit level does the TP become challenging? What about tp versus spvp? jumping puzzles? i find griffinrook run chest harder to do than tp merchanting (with bomb)

All that content you mentioned gives out unique rewards that are not available on the TP.

griffinrook has unique rewards?

anyway the question is more that, how does that compare difficulty wise.
what level of mastery amounts to what type of earnings (in general)

like, for the sake of getting numbers how would you rate earning 20 gold per day on the TP if you have say 200 gold in terms of challenge.
What else would you say is difficult?

You are just too fixated on gold rewards and disregard all other rewards. All other content apart from the tp offers a wide range of rewards that arent obtainable on the tp. Skillpoints, karma, tokens, account bound skins, titles, achievements, mats, recipes currencies, etc. and especially: Fun.
All this you cant buy with real money (except fun, outside of the game), while the only reward you get from the tp IS obtainable with real money.

Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.

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Posted by: mtpelion.4562

mtpelion.4562

While TP-flipping is a way to play the game, I just have one problem: that playing the actual game is far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far less rewarding. I mean the comparison is kittening ridiculous. 1 hour of TP can net you hundreds of gold while 1 hour of actual gameplay (a dungeon, doing a couple of world bosses) nets you maybe 2 gold.

Just make the game more rewarding, maybe with just stuff, TP flippers cannot get. Like more skins that you CAN’T BUY IN THE GODkitten TP LIKE A kittenING LEGENDARY!!!!

I’d argue that the TP provides no rewards whatsoever. It allows you to trade your rewards with other players for their rewards.

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Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

griffinrook has unique rewards?

Achievement points.

achievement points are ok, but i dont think they feel particularly rewarding for most people. I would say achievement points are more about keeping track of what you have and havent done in the game, rather than rewarding you.

How is that any different from a unique skin though? They both reflect a virtual recognition of virtual accomplishment. Sure, AP may not be the showiest form of reward, but those chests pay off nicely when you add them up.

well, the fact that it isnt showy, is actually a factor. It is a game where they wanted people to chase cosmetics, I mean i think you could put titles on the list of rewards, but achievement points dont really enhance your charachters visuals/options/convenience/give money.
Even counting the points from achievements, jumping puzzles category gives less points than tradesman which is generally linked to gold earning potential(fashion is mostly gold as well). They also have more titles

But ehh, i really dont think achievement points should be a main factor in reward design, they really are just markers of what you have done, and not done. And while the chests dont suck, no one achievement or achievement group is that big a factor to achieving chests.

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Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

While TP-flipping is a way to play the game, I just have one problem: that playing the actual game is far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far less rewarding. I mean the comparison is kittening ridiculous. 1 hour of TP can net you hundreds of gold while 1 hour of actual gameplay (a dungeon, doing a couple of world bosses) nets you maybe 2 gold.

Just make the game more rewarding, maybe with just stuff, TP flippers cannot get. Like more skins that you CAN’T BUY IN THE GODkitten TP LIKE A kittenING LEGENDARY!!!!

I’d argue that the TP provides no rewards whatsoever. It allows you to trade your rewards with other players for their rewards.

if you define rewards as something newly created in the game world sure, but i think its clear that he is talking about gaining items of value. to which one can say a tp player of moderate success will be able to obtain (should they choose) a lot more items of value in the same time frame, as a player of similar success level in another playtype.

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Posted by: mtpelion.4562

mtpelion.4562

if you define rewards as something newly created in the game world sure, but i think its clear that he is talking about gaining items of value. to which one can say a tp player of moderate success will be able to obtain (should they choose) a lot more items of value in the same time frame, as a player of similar success level in another playtype.

Right, because the TP guy isn’t creating anything, he’s simply trading things. Creating things has to be limited in order to keep the game economy in check. Trading things can’t be limited without harming the economy as a whole.

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Posted by: Svetli.4276

Svetli.4276

in wow you get ban for flipping items
here you get a f medal

No you don’t. Either WoW or here. Just checked the WoW official forums and there is at least on thread discussing flipping from 2 days ago, not to mention all the other threads on making money using the AH there.

And I’m pretty sure ANet doesn’t hand out medals.

yes yes they do
they do noting and buy that the prises are geting hight and that mean buy more gems !
a-net moto “buy gems and shut up”
a-net moto 2 ‘buy gems. shut up and if you don’t like it GTFO"

tp fliping can be seen on sell history and all you need is to ban that person ! the hell ?
i know ppl who think this is normal thing to do o_o that is how bad it is

“What you wish for may not be what she wishes for.” – Skull Knight

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Posted by: mtpelion.4562

mtpelion.4562

yes yes they do
they do noting and buy that the prises are geting hight and that mean buy more gems !
a-net moto “buy gems and shut up”
a-net moto 2 ‘buy gems. shut up and if you don’t like it GTFO"

tp fliping can be seen on sell history and all you need is to ban that person ! the hell ?
i know ppl who think this is normal thing to do o_o that is how bad it is

Unless WoW has changed their policy on AH trading recently, your assertion is incorrect. I made a vast fortune via AH flipping in WoW, openly talked about it and helped others do it on the official Blizzard forums, and never received any action against my account.

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Posted by: Andred.1087

Andred.1087

TP is and probably will always be the best way to make money, but it does take a good bit of effort to consistently make significant gains. That said, just playing the game has actually been pretty rewarding ever since I got my ascended weapon (i.e. I stopped expending my exotic/ascended materials as soon as I got them). After you get to a point where you aren’t actively pursuing something, you can just start accruing wealth and materials, and it adds up pretty quick at level 80. Though I think it could also be my magic find. Definitely should invest in magic find.

Dry Top has been pretty rewarding with the buried chests. I’m up to my ears in ascended crafting materials, but this time ANet was nice enough to throw us some obsidian shards to refine them with as well.

Also I started doing Fractals recently, which I’ve found to be pretty worthwhile, for the time being anyway. I typically get pretty good loot out of them. Again though that could have something to do with magic find. Mine is only like +67%, so it’s not all that much (I guess?), but I’m just sayin, I’ve been getting better loot lately than I ever did before I started salvaging everything for luck essence. Then again, I also didn’t know how to play the game efficiently back then. So it’s probably a lot of things.

“You’ll PAY to know what you really think.” ~ J. R. “Bob” Dobbs

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Posted by: HHR LostProphet.4801

HHR LostProphet.4801

if you define rewards as something newly created in the game world sure, but i think its clear that he is talking about gaining items of value. to which one can say a tp player of moderate success will be able to obtain (should they choose) a lot more items of value in the same time frame, as a player of similar success level in another playtype.

Right, because the TP guy isn’t creating anything, he’s simply trading things. Creating things has to be limited in order to keep the game economy in check. Trading things can’t be limited without harming the economy as a whole.

You’re way overestimating the impact TP flippers have. Let’s say all TP flippers were gone and all people would’ve 15% more gold. What would they do with their gold?
Right. They spend it. At best on NPC merchants, which means that 100% of this gold gets “destroyed”, at worst on the TP which means that 15% gets “destroyed”. So we would see an impact on the prices, because we always see reactions to actions we make. But that doesn’t mean, not even in the slightest, that the economy would go to hell if all TP flippers would been gone.

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Posted by: mtpelion.4562

mtpelion.4562

if you define rewards as something newly created in the game world sure, but i think its clear that he is talking about gaining items of value. to which one can say a tp player of moderate success will be able to obtain (should they choose) a lot more items of value in the same time frame, as a player of similar success level in another playtype.

Right, because the TP guy isn’t creating anything, he’s simply trading things. Creating things has to be limited in order to keep the game economy in check. Trading things can’t be limited without harming the economy as a whole.

You’re way overestimating the impact TP flippers have. Let’s say all TP flippers were gone and all people would’ve 15% more gold. What would they do with their gold?
Right. They spend it. At best on NPC merchants, which means that 100% of this gold gets “destroyed”, at worst on the TP which means that 15% gets “destroyed”. So we would see an impact on the prices, because we always see reactions to actions we make. But that doesn’t mean, not even in the slightest, that the economy would go to hell if all TP flippers would been gone.

You are way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, underestimating the impact that flippers have on the economy as a whole.

Because they engage in multiple transactions (mostly among themselves), they cause currency to be deleted at a much faster rate which keeps money supply in check.

Additionally, without the multiple buying and selling they do amongst themselves, prices would take longer to reach equilibrium which means that buyers will spend more and sellers will get less so EVERY player winds up engaging in less beneficial transactions EVERY time they use the TP.

If you banned people from reselling goods (i.e. stopped flipping), the impact would be rampant inflation so that new and poor players are completely unable to use the market at all.

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Posted by: Brother Grimm.5176

Brother Grimm.5176

Nah, flipping isn’t the problem. The reward structure in which so many things cost vast amounts of money instead of being able to do challenging content to earn a drop is the problem.

Thats because the TP is the most challenging content.

I’d say “challenging” is quite subjective in this response. I’m not apposed to “playing” the TP, I just don’t find the “challenge” enjoyable or relaxing. I’d rather play the game than play the market. My point of view is that neither method is right or wrong and that if you are doing either (or both) of them simply for the end reward alone, then just how enjoyable is it for you?

We go out in the world and take our chances
Fate is just the weight of circumstances
That’s the way that lady luck dances

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Posted by: pdavis.8031

pdavis.8031

if you define rewards as something newly created in the game world sure, but i think its clear that he is talking about gaining items of value. to which one can say a tp player of moderate success will be able to obtain (should they choose) a lot more items of value in the same time frame, as a player of similar success level in another playtype.

Right, because the TP guy isn’t creating anything, he’s simply trading things. Creating things has to be limited in order to keep the game economy in check. Trading things can’t be limited without harming the economy as a whole.

You’re way overestimating the impact TP flippers have. Let’s say all TP flippers were gone and all people would’ve 15% more gold. What would they do with their gold?
Right. They spend it. At best on NPC merchants, which means that 100% of this gold gets “destroyed”, at worst on the TP which means that 15% gets “destroyed”. So we would see an impact on the prices, because we always see reactions to actions we make. But that doesn’t mean, not even in the slightest, that the economy would go to hell if all TP flippers would been gone.

I thought John Smith addressed that very thing in the last TP flipping discussion?

“You know what the chain of command is?
It’s the chain I beat you with until you
recognize my command!”

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Posted by: pdavis.8031

pdavis.8031

I believe this is what mtpelion and I was refering to:

“When a player adds velocity or liquidity to a market, the result is often lower prices and often prices closer to equilibrium.
Given recent feedback let me try also this in other terms (I’ve tried this before and failed so bare with me).

Supply and Demand curves can also be called Willingness to Pay and Willingness to Sell curves. Essentially they are the shape of what people are willing to pay or how much people are willing to sell for. If everyone is will to pay $5 then the “demand” curve would be a flat horizontal line at $5.
In real markets the curves end up being curves because people have different preferences or costs. I might be willing to pay $100 for a new video game and you may be willing to pay $50 and yet another person $30. When you extrapolate this out you get a smooth curve of what people are willing to pay (it works the same way for the willingness to sell).

Balance (or equilibrium) occurs when those two lines meet, and people are willing to pay the same amount people are willing to sell. This price is decided by the market as a whole. Given the “freeness” of our market in GW2 people can sell for more or less than this price. In a textbook this would never happen because people always want to be in that balanced state. In real life though, especially in video games, people have different preferences outside of that market equation. Time is a major factor of this equation in real life. Imagine you could instantly sell items to a vendor for 1 gold or you could place them on the TP for 1gold 5 silver; some amount of player would be willing to sell straight the the vendor and save the time because their preference for time or convenience makes that a good trade off for them and that’s awesome, people should be allowed to make that trade off if they want. Now let’s say people instead just place everything on the TP for super cheap instead of vendoring because it’s easier. The prices these items are placed at are often placed below that equilibrium price which leaves room for someone to purchase those items and sell them at equilibrium price earning some profit per item. The person who purchases and resells values that trades and so does the individual selling easily, in this case both parties match what they want. Now the market has items placed at the equilibrium price for the standard buyers/sellers that sell at that equilibrium. Those sellers cannot change that equilibrium price and placing items above that price will result in the items not selling. They cannot raise the price, the market has decided the price and other people have decided their willingness to sell.

The first question to ask here is, “Isn’t the profit of the reseller directly equivalent to how much people are willing to trade off money for time or other preferences?”
The answer is yes, and more than that, the potential profit is split between all the different individuals attempting to buy and resell. Since the profit is finite and will become distributed between players, why wouldn’t people begin doing that until everyone only made little to no money? If everyone was the same person they would, but there must be some barrier to entry to that activity, there must be something that stops people from jumping in and distributing some of that profit to themselves. The most common and the most correct (but not complete) is that it takes time and skill, if it did not there would be almost no profit in the activity because the potential would be split between too many different individuals.

(Hello again econ and business people, I’m aware that this is very simple, but I’m attempting to introduce people to the ideas and attempting to explain complex concepts right away turns out poorly)

“You know what the chain of command is?
It’s the chain I beat you with until you
recognize my command!”

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Posted by: tekfan.3179

tekfan.3179

I’ve held back a few days to see how this is evolving.
There’s been a lot of interesting discussions going on here.

First off I’d like to address something a few posts back:
The TP being the most challenging part of the game.
I can’t really agree with that.
In itself the TP/flipping is probably one of the easiest options to obtain gold in the game.
A little bit of research and studying the history of the market and you can find some holes you can worm in pretty fast, as long as you know what your wares are used for and how important they are.
If there is any challenge in the TP, then it’s the flippers who already amassed enough gold to uphold a monopoly on their chosen sections. Often I’ve seen a cheap number of items being bought, just for the exact same amount of these items to show up in the more expensive selling-offer a few orders down.
To be more precise: I’ve seen this happen more often than to be just a mere coincidence. At astonishing speeds.

And guess what, people?
I don’t mind people making a huge profit with that. I did too.
With a bit of flipping I went from crafting maybe two silkspools a week to crafting them daily with excess silk.
For me it doesn’t matter if I got, let’s say, five gold a day and someone get’s a thousand.
The problem I see, is that those people who amass profits from TP-flipping change the prices at rates that mirrors their income, not those of the average player.

The prices skyrocketed after ascended crafting got into the game, but they didn’t stop at that. Right now a lot of the prices are still climbing.
Compare this to Guild Wars 1 where the distribution ran over a NPC.
Once the Hall of Monuments was released and it was known that certain weapons and armors granted reward-points for GW2, the according materials got really expensive, but they established a stable cost at some point. As far as I remember they even dropped a bit, once a lot of the players had their gear.
I don’t see a stabilization coming anytime soon in GW2.

TP-flipping, the bane of Guild Wars 2?

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Posted by: Wanze.8410

Wanze.8410

The problem I see, is that those people who amass profits from TP-flipping change the prices at rates that mirrors their income, not those of the average player.

I am a TP player and made lots of gold. But i dont see how my consumption of (luxury) goods effects the prices.

Just because I might earn 10 or 100 times more gold than the average player, doesnt mean that i consume goods at the same higher rate. Just because I can afford it, doesnt mean that I buy a new legendary every month or change gold to gems to get the newest skin from the gem store. I propably bought more than 40k gems with gold in the first 18 months (mostly for account upgrades) but after that, i barely exchanged gold anymore.
Those 40k gems might seem excessive to some people but if you take into account the overall amount of gems that have been bought with gold since release, its a miniscule amount. You might as well have 50 casuals exchanging 1000 gems since release and they had a bigger impact than me on the gold/gem ratio.
I also cant just buy mats for ascended gear (working on my 4th set now) because i still have to earn the account bound mats and laurels to get vision crystals and the recipes.

Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.

TP-flipping, the bane of Guild Wars 2?

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Posted by: tekfan.3179

tekfan.3179

The problem I see, is that those people who amass profits from TP-flipping change the prices at rates that mirrors their income, not those of the average player.

I am a TP player and made lots of gold. But i dont see how my consumption of (luxury) goods effects the prices.

Just because I might earn 10 or 100 times more gold than the average player, doesnt mean that i consume goods at the same higher rate. Just because I can afford it, doesnt mean that I buy a new legendary every month or change gold to gems to get the newest skin from the gem store. I propably bought more than 40k gems with gold in the first 18 months (mostly for account upgrades) but after that, i barely exchanged gold anymore.
Those 40k gems might seem excessive to some people but if you take into account the overall amount of gems that have been bought with gold since release, its a miniscule amount. You might as well have 50 casuals exchanging 1000 gems since release and they had a bigger impact than me on the gold/gem ratio.
I also cant just buy mats for ascended gear (working on my 4th set now) because i still have to earn the account bound mats and laurels to get vision crystals and the recipes.

To be honest Wanze, I already suspected you put a lot of effort into tp-trading, given your posts. (On a side-note, maybe you could tell me: Is there even a gold-limit per account?)

However, I think you got me wrong though, regarding the problem I see with flipping.
I’ve got absolutely no problem with any tp-flipper buying thousands of gems.
Upgrade your account all you like, no problem there. It won’t raise the $- and €-prices for the gems and it won’t increase the cost for account-upgrades.
Neither am I worried about flippers working on their fourth, fifth or tenth ascended armor set. As you mentioned, you still need to amass the account bound stuff.

As I mentioned, I’ve seen cheaper orders being bought, just for the exact same amount to reappear in a more expensive sell-order.
Not the big stuff like legendaries, precursors, specific skins or even mystic forge nodes, but the basic stuff: wool, cotton, linen, silk, iron ore, ingots…and these are just the ones I had my eyes on.
The request for these items is high with ascended crafting, of course.
But if you look at the orders and how they change, it’s hard to not see how cheaper offers are bought just to be added to more expensive offers in order to gain profit.
There is no chance for the price to go down since flipping keeps it up in order to surpass the 15% that goes down the drain and acquire a small profit per item.

For your income it may not matter much if the wool scraps for the next bolt of damask cost you 5 or 8 silver(since I started flipping, it mattered less for me), but for someone who puts in a limited time of play per day with dungeons and fractals, 7,5 gold per stack is a huge difference.

TP-flipping, the bane of Guild Wars 2?

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Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

if you define rewards as something newly created in the game world sure, but i think its clear that he is talking about gaining items of value. to which one can say a tp player of moderate success will be able to obtain (should they choose) a lot more items of value in the same time frame, as a player of similar success level in another playtype.

Right, because the TP guy isn’t creating anything, he’s simply trading things. Creating things has to be limited in order to keep the game economy in check. Trading things can’t be limited without harming the economy as a whole.

We keep getting this same circle, if we are talking about changing the game, to balance the value gained through different activities, then the old rule,
PVE creates gold/items that flood the market, is not necessarily going to be the case.
for example:

  • Competitive dungeon runs, pay 20 silver to pot to enter, top 5% keep split the winnings (dungeons graded on deaths/speed/non respawning enemies killed)
  • Competitive jumping puzzle challenges, pay in, do 4 specific jumping puzzles in a row as fast as you can
  • mercenary system, and associated dynamic events. people can pay players to do certain tasks, if they succeed, player gets the dynamic event specific rewards, mercs get paid. (think like resource caravans that give you ascended account bound items if you succeed, and some other goodies)
  • who wants to be a millionaire, lore edition, winner take all lore trivia games, with titles, and an entrance fee. (it probably wouldnt be presented as a game show, but thats essentially what it is)
  • then there is the simple answer, more account bound rewards reward/systems

the world can grow and change, just because right now, pve rewards are tailored a certain way doesnt mean it has to be that way, or that it will always be that way.

TP-flipping, the bane of Guild Wars 2?

in Black Lion Trading Co

Posted by: Wanze.8410

Wanze.8410

if you define rewards as something newly created in the game world sure, but i think its clear that he is talking about gaining items of value. to which one can say a tp player of moderate success will be able to obtain (should they choose) a lot more items of value in the same time frame, as a player of similar success level in another playtype.

Right, because the TP guy isn’t creating anything, he’s simply trading things. Creating things has to be limited in order to keep the game economy in check. Trading things can’t be limited without harming the economy as a whole.

We keep getting this same circle, if we are talking about changing the game, to balance the value gained through different activities, then the old rule,
PVE creates gold/items that flood the market, is not necessarily going to be the case.
for example:

  • Competitive dungeon runs, pay 20 silver to pot to enter, top 5% keep split the winnings (dungeons graded on deaths/speed/non respawning enemies killed)
  • Competitive jumping puzzle challenges, pay in, do 4 specific jumping puzzles in a row as fast as you can
  • mercenary system, and associated dynamic events. people can pay players to do certain tasks, if they succeed, player gets the dynamic event specific rewards, mercs get paid. (think like resource caravans that give you ascended account bound items if you succeed, and some other goodies)
  • who wants to be a millionaire, lore edition, winner take all lore trivia games, with titles, and an entrance fee. (it probably wouldnt be presented as a game show, but thats essentially what it is)
  • then there is the simple answer, more account bound rewards reward/systems

the world can grow and change, just because right now, pve rewards are tailored a certain way doesnt mean it has to be that way, or that it will always be that way.

I would have no problem with this being implemented as it creates no gold or other rewards but only shifts it from player to player and basically awards players for their skill.

But once again you bury your suggestion on the 3rd page of a thread that has to do with the tp, which is completely unrelated and off topic.

Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.

TP-flipping, the bane of Guild Wars 2?

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Posted by: eithinan.9841

eithinan.9841

The problem I see, is that those people who amass profits from TP-flipping change the prices at rates that mirrors their income, not those of the average player.

I am a TP player and made lots of gold. But i dont see how my consumption of (luxury) goods effects the prices.

Just because I might earn 10 or 100 times more gold than the average player, doesnt mean that i consume goods at the same higher rate. Just because I can afford it, doesnt mean that I buy a new legendary every month or change gold to gems to get the newest skin from the gem store. I propably bought more than 40k gems with gold in the first 18 months (mostly for account upgrades) but after that, i barely exchanged gold anymore.
Those 40k gems might seem excessive to some people but if you take into account the overall amount of gems that have been bought with gold since release, its a miniscule amount. You might as well have 50 casuals exchanging 1000 gems since release and they had a bigger impact than me on the gold/gem ratio.
I also cant just buy mats for ascended gear (working on my 4th set now) because i still have to earn the account bound mats and laurels to get vision crystals and the recipes.

Wanze, since the thread has almost gone completely off the rails, what do you find the real gate empreals or dragonite?

OT: The more account bound items in the game that can craft tradable items would go a long way to bringing variety to the market giving crafters a nice little niche to work with.

TP-flipping, the bane of Guild Wars 2?

in Black Lion Trading Co

Posted by: Wanze.8410

Wanze.8410

The problem I see, is that those people who amass profits from TP-flipping change the prices at rates that mirrors their income, not those of the average player.

I am a TP player and made lots of gold. But i dont see how my consumption of (luxury) goods effects the prices.

Just because I might earn 10 or 100 times more gold than the average player, doesnt mean that i consume goods at the same higher rate. Just because I can afford it, doesnt mean that I buy a new legendary every month or change gold to gems to get the newest skin from the gem store. I propably bought more than 40k gems with gold in the first 18 months (mostly for account upgrades) but after that, i barely exchanged gold anymore.
Those 40k gems might seem excessive to some people but if you take into account the overall amount of gems that have been bought with gold since release, its a miniscule amount. You might as well have 50 casuals exchanging 1000 gems since release and they had a bigger impact than me on the gold/gem ratio.
I also cant just buy mats for ascended gear (working on my 4th set now) because i still have to earn the account bound mats and laurels to get vision crystals and the recipes.

Wanze, since the thread has almost gone completely off the rails, what do you find the real gate empreals or dragonite?

OT: The more account bound items in the game that can craft tradable items would go a long way to bringing variety to the market giving crafters a nice little niche to work with.

For me personally the gate is laurels for the recipes and wvw infusions. I dont run dungeons or do world bosses, so i get most of my ascended mats from wvw or LS rewards.
The droprate for me for all 3 mats is quite on par, actually. Some weeks i get more more dust, some weeks i got more dragonite or shards.
Right now i have 35 dragonite ingots, 33 empy stars and 24 bloodstone bricks.
I propably have less bricks because i use dust sometimes to make toxic nourishments.

I am working on my 4th asc set now, Ventari (after soldier/zerker/sentinel) and still need to craft 2 lesser and 4 regular vision crystals, so thats 24 each.
I am lucky that the ventari recipes come from the tp and dont need laurels, so i can use my laurels (45 atm) to buy infusions instead of using them for the recipes, otherwise i would have to wait another 40 days to complete it.

Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.

TP-flipping, the bane of Guild Wars 2?

in Black Lion Trading Co

Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

if you define rewards as something newly created in the game world sure, but i think its clear that he is talking about gaining items of value. to which one can say a tp player of moderate success will be able to obtain (should they choose) a lot more items of value in the same time frame, as a player of similar success level in another playtype.

Right, because the TP guy isn’t creating anything, he’s simply trading things. Creating things has to be limited in order to keep the game economy in check. Trading things can’t be limited without harming the economy as a whole.

We keep getting this same circle, if we are talking about changing the game, to balance the value gained through different activities, then the old rule,
PVE creates gold/items that flood the market, is not necessarily going to be the case.
for example:

  • Competitive dungeon runs, pay 20 silver to pot to enter, top 5% keep split the winnings (dungeons graded on deaths/speed/non respawning enemies killed)
  • Competitive jumping puzzle challenges, pay in, do 4 specific jumping puzzles in a row as fast as you can
  • mercenary system, and associated dynamic events. people can pay players to do certain tasks, if they succeed, player gets the dynamic event specific rewards, mercs get paid. (think like resource caravans that give you ascended account bound items if you succeed, and some other goodies)
  • who wants to be a millionaire, lore edition, winner take all lore trivia games, with titles, and an entrance fee. (it probably wouldnt be presented as a game show, but thats essentially what it is)
  • then there is the simple answer, more account bound rewards reward/systems

the world can grow and change, just because right now, pve rewards are tailored a certain way doesnt mean it has to be that way, or that it will always be that way.

I would have no problem with this being implemented as it creates no gold or other rewards but only shifts it from player to player and basically awards players for their skill.

But once again you bury your suggestion on the 3rd page of a thread that has to do with the tp, which is completely unrelated and off topic.

see, these are possible solutions to a problem that the TP has more potential to gain value, however, one can only have/test/evaluate/refine solutions, if one has identified and defined the problem. The OP believes the difference in value gained through TP play is a problem, but many here, do not.

I am sure there are many other ways/ideas angles that can solve these issues, but first one has to identify what the problem statement is
http://www.ceptara.com/blog/how-to-write-problem-statement

its an engineering concept also linked to the scientific method.

TP-flipping, the bane of Guild Wars 2?

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Posted by: Wanze.8410

Wanze.8410

if you define rewards as something newly created in the game world sure, but i think its clear that he is talking about gaining items of value. to which one can say a tp player of moderate success will be able to obtain (should they choose) a lot more items of value in the same time frame, as a player of similar success level in another playtype.

Right, because the TP guy isn’t creating anything, he’s simply trading things. Creating things has to be limited in order to keep the game economy in check. Trading things can’t be limited without harming the economy as a whole.

We keep getting this same circle, if we are talking about changing the game, to balance the value gained through different activities, then the old rule,
PVE creates gold/items that flood the market, is not necessarily going to be the case.
for example:

  • Competitive dungeon runs, pay 20 silver to pot to enter, top 5% keep split the winnings (dungeons graded on deaths/speed/non respawning enemies killed)
  • Competitive jumping puzzle challenges, pay in, do 4 specific jumping puzzles in a row as fast as you can
  • mercenary system, and associated dynamic events. people can pay players to do certain tasks, if they succeed, player gets the dynamic event specific rewards, mercs get paid. (think like resource caravans that give you ascended account bound items if you succeed, and some other goodies)
  • who wants to be a millionaire, lore edition, winner take all lore trivia games, with titles, and an entrance fee. (it probably wouldnt be presented as a game show, but thats essentially what it is)
  • then there is the simple answer, more account bound rewards reward/systems

the world can grow and change, just because right now, pve rewards are tailored a certain way doesnt mean it has to be that way, or that it will always be that way.

I would have no problem with this being implemented as it creates no gold or other rewards but only shifts it from player to player and basically awards players for their skill.

But once again you bury your suggestion on the 3rd page of a thread that has to do with the tp, which is completely unrelated and off topic.

see, these are possible solutions to a problem that the TP has more potential to gain value, however, one can only have/test/evaluate/refine solutions, if one has identified and defined the problem. The OP believes the difference in value gained through TP play is a problem, but many here, do not.

I am sure there are many other ways/ideas angles that can solve these issues, but first one has to identify what the problem statement is
http://www.ceptara.com/blog/how-to-write-problem-statement

its an engineering concept also linked to the scientific method.

Point is, all your suggestions dont have anything to do with the tp or flipping, they would leave the TP as it is but would introduce reward structures for other content that is awarded between players and not generated by the game itself.

I genuinely think thats a good idea (wagers/mercenary system) and I dont know why you are so reluctant to discuss it in a seperate topic but continuously pitch it out at the back pages of threads about the TP/flipping/economy that have long gone off topic.

Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.

TP-flipping, the bane of Guild Wars 2?

in Black Lion Trading Co

Posted by: Oculus.5703

Oculus.5703

The TP is probably the biggest gold sink in GW2.

Anyone who knows anything about MMO economies, knows sinks are good.

The fact that some are better at it than you, doesn’t change that fact. The “real” problem with the TP is that it shows everyone how “bad” they are at farming gold, compared to others.

Right now, using the best farming available, one could earn enough gold to buy a top legendary, by playing 3-4 hours a day, for 20-30 days – does anyone think, that the people who ask again and again for a non-RNG legendary system think it should take any less then a 3-4 months at least?