Guild Wars 2

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

In answer to the OP, yes, I find that the TP as currently structured is a good match for the kind of social system/philosophy the rest of the game is based on.

• You play how you like (for the most part).
• You can sell most of the stuff you can’t use on the TP for market rates.
• You can buy most of the stuff you want or need on the TP for market rates.
• You don’t have to care at all about the economy, because other people do that for you, including John Smith (in a role that few other games support) and including market players (whose actions end up removing a ton of gold from the game and also keep prices more even than they would be without a “free” market).

That’s pretty close to the ideal setup for the state of MMOs in 2014, in my opinion.

As an addendum, keep in mind that market “players” (speculators, flippers, etc) exist in every MMO’s economy. The difference in GW2 is that their actions are public, whereas in other MMOs, they are hidden. This allows the market to adjust to manipulation attempts far faster than in other games.

I’m not saying all speculation is good nor am I saying that market players are altruistic heroes. I am saying that the TP allows people to behave like…humans do (some greedy, some not) and still end up with a largely positive result for the vast majority of players.

I think there’s often a lot of public reaction about savvy trading (and how much some people earn from it), because it’s so easy to see. In other games, it happens behind the scenes, so that most people don’t even realize how much better it is in GW2.

You bring up some good points.

I’d like to know what you mean with “(for the most part)”.

tekfan.3179:

No problem.
I understood that you were referring to the supply/demand-ratio of the other cloth-bolts to “compensate” the lowered silk-requirement.
I’m not necessarily supporting your assertion, but wouldn’t call it an impossibility either.
However, let’s imagine for a second that it wouldn’t happen and that damask would become ~3.5g cheaper in production. As a trader, would you convey this dropped price to the consumers, even if they would still be willing to pay 15g for a bolt of damask? I’d rather assume you’d go for the additional profit.
While this is not evil, I find that to be a different philosophy than people being rewarded from the game for a tiny amount of damage on a boss that others basically melted. A lot of the game rewards altruistic behaviour by design, the TP is certainly not. Could I convey my comparison this time, or is the dps-example still too farfetched?

Well, as a trader I would try to speculate on markets shifts as i predicted them.
First of all, i would cancel all buy orders i would have for silk or bolts of damask.
Silk just got its demand halved (there is little else silk is used for), even though a very short price spike could occur, if the amount of people crafting damask on a daily basis doubles through this change.
The remaining buy orders for damask between the old price and the new price (~8-12g) will be filled very quickly, while sell listing propably trop from 15 to 11g during the first day and might even stay there for a couple of more days due to the 1/day cap for crafting. Most people will hold enough cloth to craft 1 or some more damask in their collectible tab, so it will most likely take a couple of days, until people start buying t2-4 cloth from the tp and the higher demand for that sets in.

So right from the start, i would try to invest in t1-4 cloth (Jute because it will give several gold ROI per skillpoint if you upgrade it in the mf, once wool rises in price).
And not only in t1-4 bolts and scraps directly but also in secondary sources:

• lootbags
• salvage materials
• lower tier armor
  I would also invest in products that need t1-4 cloth to be crafted:
• crafting components (which usually already have a hugh pricespread in the first place)
• Bolts of Damask (once the highest bid bottoms out at 8g)

Because i expect more bolts of damask being crafted and consumed due to the recipe change, additional demand for t2-4 cloth will inevitably set in and their prices will rise because there has no change been made to their supply rate.

Right now the price for damask is more or less in equilibrium and people value it at 12g/15g. So to what price level do people keep buying t2-4 cloth from the tp until they start farming those themselves for their daily needs?

My guess would be that people would still be willing to pay 12g/15g for it as their daily average income stays the same.

In the long run, we could actually see a daily income nerf for endgame players due to silk propably getting cheaper and an income boost to lower level players that mainly get t1-4 cloth as drops.
But that is an income nerf that many endgame players wont even realise.

Getting back to your comparison of the TP and the social, altruistic behaviour that is promoted by Anet in most other content:
Of course it doesnt compare very well.
But the TP in its nature is “Player vs Player”, not “Player vs Enviroment”.
And people would go to great lengths to get an advantage over their enemies in wvw.
Using the most OP builds to gank 3v1 on an upleveled enemy, spamming enviromental weapons (when they werent disabled in the early days), spying on enemy TS, siege griefing to outright hacking.

WvW, in most scenarios isnt either fair nor balanced, how does that in your opinion compare to the TP?

The best merchants will make money faster than grinding in any game that allows trading. This is something that should be so obvious that it’s hardly worth mentioning.

When you make all the ‘good’ gear account bound, and not interact with the economy at all, then all you’ve done is, essentially, not have trade in your game. I don’t doubt that people do not complain about traders in a game without trade, but how could they?

If trading is a relevant part of a game, then the best traders will make more money than grinders, and grinders will complain about it.

Wanze.8410:

tekfan.3179:

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Getting back to your comparison of the TP and the social, altruistic behaviour that is promoted by Anet in most other content:
Of course it doesnt compare very well.
But the TP in its nature is “Player vs Player”, not “Player vs Enviroment”.
And people would go to great lengths to get an advantage over their enemies in wvw.
Using the most OP builds to gank 3v1 on an upleveled enemy, spamming enviromental weapons (when they werent disabled in the early days), spying on enemy TS, siege griefing to outright hacking.

WvW, in most scenarios isnt either fair nor balanced, how does that in your opinion compare to the TP?

Of course, sPvP and WvW are competitive, yet inside your team/server the altruistic mechanics remain the same.
People who hack…I don’t think we argue in that regard.

As to the difference I see:
Follow the map-chat in Lions Arch for a day. You will see that there are pure PvP- and pure PvE-guilds recruiting.
People want to play, some of them go into a dungeon or fractal, others roam the borders or jump in a match in the mists.
It’s a choice wether you like to engage in PvE or PvP.
The Black Lion Trading Post is the market. Aside from farming them yourself(which can be tedious for cloth, let me tell you that ) or counting on the laurel-boxes with randomized content to give you what you need, the TP is the only way to trade.
There is no direct trading with players where you don’t risk a scam, or the Material-NPC’s of Guild Wars 1 as another trading-instance, just the Black Lion trading post, which you defined as PvP yourself.
In a way the BLTC is forced PvP, therefore also differing from the rest of Guild Wars 2.

If the silk requirement in a bolt of damask was reduced to 50 from 100, the price of silk would crater. I do not have enough information to estimate the elasticity of its current price, but I would not be surprised to see a price sub-50c on it once all is said and done.

There are two secondary effects. First, the price of kitten cloth would spike immensely. While the total price of a bolt of damask would still be lower than it is now, a big chunk of the ‘savings’ on silk would go straight into driving the price of linen and friends up.

The other effect is a wealth effect; silk is no longer valuable, and at the moment silk is a pretty hearty chunk of a lot of player’s incomes. While you’d see some savings if you’re using all your silk yourself to make damask, for all other purposes your income just took a big hit. This could have further effects as people decide to farm elsewhere to keep their incomes up.

Then there’s fallout from all of those things changing. It’s not a subtle thing to change silk requirements and it’s not something that’d be isolated to silk; it very well could have an impact on the price of everything else in the game.

Ensign.2189:

The best merchants will make money faster than grinding in any game that allows trading. This is something that should be so obvious that it’s hardly worth mentioning.

When you make all the ‘good’ gear account bound, and not interact with the economy at all, then all you’ve done is, essentially, not have trade in your game. I don’t doubt that people do not complain about traders in a game without trade, but how could they?

If trading is a relevant part of a game, then the best traders will make more money than grinders, and grinders will complain about it.

I think your assumption is other games have people complain about it too. And assume the only reason people complain in GW2 is because they have a sub forum on economy.

What I’ve seen is if I create the same topic on other game forum, people just dont’ care at all. But if the same topic come up on GW2 “General forum”, people complain about it.

Your right, many games have the best gear “account bound” through dungeons and never enter the economy. I don’t see a problem with that. And actually the only reason I think GW2 make them sell-able is because they want people to buy gems and trade for cash. I don’t felt it is a reason to make the economy more interesting.

And I dont’ see the problem with the best merchant making more money than grinders. I see the problem is the percentage of merchant that make much more money than grinders is too high “in this game”.

Wanze.8410:

WvW, in most scenarios isnt either fair nor balanced, how does that in your opinion compare to the TP?

well, do you think at least “trying to make the game balance” is part of the developer’s job.

Obviously you can just say real world isn’t fair, so GW2 is just mimicking real world society.

And obviously GW2 staff at least “try to make WvW fair and balanced”. Even though it is just too difficult to do.

laokoko.7403:

First of all, a huge percentage of games have the best gear only drop exclusively for dungeon crawler.

I hate hardcore dungeon crawling. If I was forced to do that for BiS gear then I would not be playing how I want to. GW2 has in game currency that actually has real value due to the TP design and for some reason people are against that.

tekfan.3179:

Wanze.8410:

tekfan.3179:

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Getting back to your comparison of the TP and the social, altruistic behaviour that is promoted by Anet in most other content:
Of course it doesnt compare very well.
But the TP in its nature is “Player vs Player”, not “Player vs Enviroment”.
And people would go to great lengths to get an advantage over their enemies in wvw.
Using the most OP builds to gank 3v1 on an upleveled enemy, spamming enviromental weapons (when they werent disabled in the early days), spying on enemy TS, siege griefing to outright hacking.

WvW, in most scenarios isnt either fair nor balanced, how does that in your opinion compare to the TP?

Of course, sPvP and WvW are competitive, yet inside your team/server the altruistic mechanics remain the same.
People who hack…I don’t think we argue in that regard.

As to the difference I see:
Follow the map-chat in Lions Arch for a day. You will see that there are pure PvP- and pure PvE-guilds recruiting.
People want to play, some of them go into a dungeon or fractal, others roam the borders or jump in a match in the mists.
It’s a choice wether you like to engage in PvE or PvP.
The Black Lion Trading Post is the market. Aside from farming them yourself(which can be tedious for cloth, let me tell you that ) or counting on the laurel-boxes with randomized content to give you what you need, the TP is the only way to trade.
There is no direct trading with players where you don’t risk a scam, or the Material-NPC’s of Guild Wars 1 as another trading-instance, just the Black Lion trading post, which you defined as PvP yourself.
In a way the BLTC is forced PvP, therefore also differing from the rest of Guild Wars 2.

I think both of you have hit on the truth, the tp is pvp, Market cooperation/ altruism/ etc is largely against its design.
You really have no choice but to take part in it, you get too many unintended items, and you have very little means of getting anything directly without comparitively large grind.

A players working together philosophy
vs
Players working against each other philosophy

hmm i wonder if there was any other way it could have played out.

“purely as a mind experiment, can any one think how they could have made the market more as a player versus world system? Hmmm”

laokoko.7403:

And assume the only reason people complain in GW2 is because they have a sub forum on economy.

The main reason people complain is because they want legendaries fast. They cannot buy all the legendary components they want as fast as they want, and are looking for scapegoats for this (‘traders are making precursors too expensive’, when dedicated trader-crafters are the main force holding prices down ATM).

I think this complaining is more visible because it has a separate forum.

laokoko.7403:

And actually the only reason I think GW2 make them sell-able is because they want people to buy gems and trade for cash. I don’t felt it is a reason to make the economy more interesting.

GW2 makes highly desirable items like precursors and ascended materials sellable to enable players to acquire them while playing in many different ways. Most other MMOs say ‘if you want to acquire X piece of legendary gear you have to grind this particular instance over and over again’. GW2 allows you to acquire resources in open world content, in instances, in WvW, however you like, and work towards those items. It absolutely makes the economy more interesting than ‘go grind dungeon Y for gear, ignore all other content’.

laokoko.7403:

And I dont’ see the problem with the best merchant making more money than grinders. I see the problem is the percentage of merchant that make much more money than grinders is too high “in this game”.

How do you know that? Just how many high income traders do you think there are in this game for every player grinding a champ train or running dungeons?

Scribble out just how little money there is to be made on the TP, as a fraction of total game output. There simply cannot be more than a handful of people making more than an average player out there. It is necessarily lower than in other games, due to differences in market efficiency.

phys.7689:

I think both of you have hit on the truth, the tp is pvp, Market cooperation/ altruism/ etc is largely against its design.

You’re getting cynical. All trade is cooperative, and real positive sum – people make trades because they value what they are getting over what they are giving up. People have heterogeneous preferences and trade makes everyone better off.

Ensign.2189:

phys.7689:

I think both of you have hit on the truth, the tp is pvp, Market cooperation/ altruism/ etc is largely against its design.

You’re getting cynical. All trade is cooperative, and real positive sum – people make trades because they value what they are getting over what they are giving up. People have heterogeneous preferences and trade makes everyone better off.

See i thought about that, and i think in can be true. I think that definately once you embrace certain philosophies, it makes you see things a certain way.

But regardless what lens you paint it as, there is a lot of PVP in trading here. You are a seller, competing with other sellers, you are a buyer competing with other buyers, you are a merchant competing with other merchants. In pve? in most cases, im not competing with any one, it doesnt matter if Jimmy hits that node before me, it doesnt matter if some one else is killing the same champion. etc.

Now, im not saying competition is bad, i actually like some competition in some places. It can also be used as incentives and etc. But it is definately a contrast from other game facets.

See the way i see it, some people see it as competition, and some do not, but the people who do not, are usually the ones taking the loss. It seems to me (and this may be due to my upbringing within such a system) That it is pvp, and many people dont realize it, so are therefore the ones that the other people get profit from while reducing what they themselves get. the interesting part about it, is that many dont care, because they arent playing that game. UNTIL they get to a certain level, and they start competing for the same resources, then a whole bunch of different perspecitives clash, and people get upset

I actually think it would be better if the TP was more of an opt in only endeavor, and wasnt required by design.

Ensign.2189:

laokoko.7403:

And I dont’ see the problem with the best merchant making more money than grinders. I see the problem is the percentage of merchant that make much more money than grinders is too high “in this game”.

How do you know that? Just how many high income traders do you think there are in this game for every player grinding a champ train or running dungeons?

well, do you consider me as a high income traders? I barely check the trading post. I farm 10 hours a day. And half of my money is from taking a few second to buy items and resell them a few month later.

I’m not here to tell you there is a problem. I used to think this as a problem, but I stopped thinking it that way, because there are people(for example like you) who perceive it differently.

All I’m here to tell you is, you can make the same topic on other game forum, and vast majority of respond is they don’t really care. And if you make the same topic on GW2’s general forum, there will be some people which show their detest against flippers. So this social issue is indeed exclusive (or at least show it self more) in GW2.

Obviously there are other games which have the same issue GW2 have. But vast majority of them don’t have the issue.

Ensign.2189:

I think this complaining is more visible because it has a separate forum.

why don’t you go try it yourself. Ask the same question in GW2 general forum, and ask the question in other game’s forum.

I was talking with another poster and he was making a big deal about how he use tactics to switch server and buy out certain items to make a fortune in Rift. So I actually go to Rift’s forum and talk about it and ask them their opinion’s about flipping, they say they just don’t care because all the good items are account bound from dungeons.

Regardless of you think weather account bound loot is good design or not. All I’m saying is the issue with flipping is exclusive to only a few games(GW2 inclusive). Vast majority of games don’t have an issue with is.

When I say issue, I mean a certain percentage of players voice their opinion against it. I’m not saying it is wrong.

laokoko.7403:

Ensign.2189:

I think this complaining is more visible because it has a separate forum.

why don’t you go try it yourself. Ask the same question in GW2 general forum, and ask the question in other game’s forum.

I was talking with another poster and he was making a big deal about how he use tactics to switch server and buy out certain items to make a fortune in Rift. So I actually go to Rift’s forum and talk about it and ask them their opinion’s about flipping, they say they just don’t care because all the good items are account bound from dungeons.

That was me, and it’s an interesting reaction. I was actually talking about crafting materials and crafted items (like storage bags) because that was what I bought and sold to make money in Rift. They’re right, the gear that drops outside of dungeons is pretty bad, and not really worth anything.

But crafting… you see, Rift had daily quests that gave money, exp and tokens to buy advanced recipes, as well as advancing your crafting skills. Many times I wanted to complete the crafting dailies but there was not enough material available on the AH to complete them, so I had to go out and spend a lot of time hunting for crafting mats to harvest.

I began watching the AH and saw how prices and availability fluctuate, and how crafting mats and items like bags were very cheap on servers where crafters compete with each other and much more expensive on servers where there were fewer crafters selling them. So I began stockpiling items on one server and transferring them to sell on another, and making 200%, 300%, 500% profit in doing so. It was possible to make money much faster than flipping here for a 10% or 20% profit.

Imagine spending 100g at 9 am Saturday morning, getting back 300g by Saturday evening, and doing the same with 300g Sunday morning and getting 600g. Then next weekend you end up with 2000+ g, then next weekend 4000+ g.

I even started a new character on an empty server, without transferring I just collected items from the open world and sold them, then invested the money buying items cheaply and selling them later for 100% profit. In a few weeks the character went from 0 to the equivalent of 100 gold without any outside influence. With such a restricted market it was easy to buy crafting mats for low prices and relist them for double the price.

That was how I made a lot of money in Rift without really working hard for it. I didn’t bother selling gear because the posters you talked to were right – there’s no money in it.

The biggest difference here is that every server sells from the same TP, so that every seller competes with every other seller. Otherwise you could buy Dusk for 500g on one server and immediately sell it for 3000g on another.

Ensign.2189:

laokoko.7403:

And assume the only reason people complain in GW2 is because they have a sub forum on economy.

The main reason people complain is because they want legendaries fast. They cannot buy all the legendary components they want as fast as they want, and are looking for scapegoats for this (‘traders are making precursors too expensive’, when dedicated trader-crafters are the main force holding prices down ATM).

I think this complaining is more visible because it has a separate forum.

I’m highly against the margin traiding post flipping offers and I don’t complain about it because I want to get my legendary faster. I’ve crafted 2 so far, and if I say crafted, I mean crafted. Legendaries should be a long-term goal, yet some players are able to buy a legendary every month, some can even at a faster rate.
I feel as player, who plays the MMO how a MMO should be played, aka. doing all the PvE stuff, dishonored if players who don’t even have to participate at all in PvE, PvP or WvW making the most gold with an activity that isn’t even considered as a MMO activity. I have no problem with them making gold by flipping, I have a problem with them making the most, by far the most gold compared to any other activity ingame.
It boils down to the fact that the same amount of skill and time put into different parts of the game get rewarded differently, despite they oughtn’t.
The specific problem I see with the TP is that the same “currency” that is being used to get rewards actually is the reward on the TP. In every other aspect of the game you have to mainly invest time to get the reward, on the TP it’s gold.

phys.7689:

tekfan.3179:

Wanze.8410:

tekfan.3179:

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“purely as a mind experiment, can any one think how they could have made the market more as a player versus world system? Hmmm”

An interesting idea.
Maybe a system where the security of certain areas would guarantee the game to generate materials on specific merchants in the cities.
For example the sea between Fort Trinity and Orr is save, therefore hunters and poachers can hunt risen sharks for powerful blood, generating a certain amount of the material to slowly pour into the traders.
The next day the same area would generate corals once save and so on.
Getting the Shatterer killed would generate charged lodestones on the merchants, Tequatl for ancient bones…

Prophet, you’re seriously fixated on calling the TP a “reward.” It’s not. Nor is it that you have a problem with people making more money on the TP, which is what you perceive your problem to be. What you truly have a problem with is the inability, unwillingness, and often stubbornness of players who refuse to make the market work for them, and refuse to educate themselves on how to do so. How many times have players like wanze told you the easiest way to crash the amount of money they make on the market is to pay attention to your own behavior on the TP? Buy with buy orders, sell with sell orders, that sort of stuff.

So tell me, how do you want anet to “fix” a behavioral problem that has existed for close to two years? What’s next? Going to ask the “guvment” to make laws saying stockbrokers and prospectors cant make more money than some punk flipping burgers to pay for his next joint?

If players dont want to change, dont be asking anet to do anything that would do that change for them. Anything they do wont change the status quo, which is players who think make the most money, and players who exhibit less brain activity than a goldfish make peanuts.

This is probably a weird topic, because even if flipping/investing isn’t profitable, that don’t mean legendary will get cheaper.

And Anet put in a shortcut called investing/flipping and people can get legendary faster and people are complaining about it.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

I feel as player, who plays the MMO how a MMO should be played, aka. doing all the PvE stuff, dishonored if players who don’t even have to participate at all in PvE, PvP or WvW making the most gold with an activity that isn’t even considered as a MMO activity. I have no problem with them making gold by flipping, I have a problem with them making the most, by far the most gold compared to any other activity ingame.
It boils down to the fact that the same amount of skill and time put into different parts of the game get rewarded differently, despite they oughtn’t.

John Smith.4610:

The TP is part of the world of Tyria and spending your time interacting with it is just as legitimate a play session as dungeons or jumping puzzles or any of our other fantastic content.

John Smith.4610:

I want to go through a hypothetical to explain a point about the TP.
Before I start I want to restate (it was quoted earlier) that the TP is part of the Tyrian world, we don’t make monster killing games here, we make online worlds (in which you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome).

Aidan Savage.2078:

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If you’re here to complain about diction, then leave. I don’t kittening care how you call the gold a flipper gets, he gets more than anybody else.
So players should educate themself, otherwise its their own fault and you’re allowed to exploit them? Are you allowed to exploit people IRL who have a lower education level? no. So why should you be allowed to do so in GW2?
Wanze has made a suggestion called “White Karma”. And if this gets implemented the margin one could get through flipping will shrink.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Aidan Savage.2078:

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If you’re here to complain about diction, then leave. I don’t kittening care how you call the gold a flipper gets, he gets more than anybody else.
So players should educate themself, otherwise its their own fault and you’re allowed to exploit them? Are you allowed to exploit people IRL who have a lower education level? no. So why should you be allowed to do so in GW2?
Wanze has made a suggestion called “White Karma”. And if this gets implemented the margin one could get through flipping will shrink.

It’s not exploiting.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

So players should educate themself, otherwise its their own fault.

Yes. Instead of whining and crying that “i haz no monies” you should be spending more time understanding your own market behavior to realize what you need to change to make more money yourself instead of allowing others to make more money by your own shortsightedness. For starters, if you’re always selling to buy orders, you’re losing 5-50% of the money you’d made if you had put up a sell listing. That sell listing doesnt even have to match or undercut by 1c, but can be 10s-10g undercutting depending on how valuable the item is.

Guess what happens when you correct your market behavior over time? Players like wanze finally have serious competition to making money on the TP. The only reason they make so much money that evon’s wealth looks more pitiful than a piggy bank full of change is because players like you cannot provide competition. Well, let me correct that: players like you will not provide competition. Mostly because an ingrained pattern of “BUY NOW” and “SELL NOW” that means those like wanze end up making money of you. You know what? Working as intended. And that’s not even getting into the discussion of how such a mentality is more or less market destructive and working in direct opposition to the end result that flippers and speculators are working towards.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Aidan Savage.2078:

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If you’re here to complain about diction, then leave. I don’t kittening care how you call the gold a flipper gets, he gets more than anybody else.
So players should educate themself, otherwise its their own fault and you’re allowed to exploit them? Are you allowed to exploit people IRL who have a lower education level? no. So why should you be allowed to do so in GW2?
Wanze has made a suggestion called “White Karma”. And if this gets implemented the margin one could get through flipping will shrink.

I have to agree with Aidan, its not diction he is complaining about. Its the fact that rewards for content and profits on the tp are two completely different mechanics.
Rewards are given and balanced by Anet, profits are given and balanced by players.
My karma tax idea would propably bring both a little bit closer together but if players just started asking 15-30% more gold for their loot they sell, it would be the easier and cheaper fix.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Legendaries should be a long-term goal, yet some players are able to buy a legendary every month, some can even at a faster rate.
I feel as player, who plays the MMO how a MMO should be played, (1)

doing all the PvE stuff, dishonored if players who don’t even have to participate at all in PvE, PvP or WvW making the most gold with an activity that isn’t even considered as a MMO activity. (2)

It boils down to the fact that the same amount of skill and time put into different parts of the game get rewarded differently, despite they oughtn’t.(3)

The specific problem I see with the TP is that the same “currency” that is being used to get rewards actually is the reward on the TP. In every other aspect of the game you have to mainly invest time to get the reward, on the TP it’s gold. (4)

This is the last time I am ever going to bother responding to hhrprophet.

(1) You do not get to decide how the game is supposed to be played.

(2) You should not allow other peoples success in life affect your own self worth. And playing the TP is an mmo activity as JS has said. addendum

(3) but it does NOT carry the same risk

(4) You have a problem with the primary currency in GW2 having value unlike every other mmo out there.

addendun ty aryilana

John Smith.4610:

John Smith.4610:

The TP is part of the world of Tyria and spending your time interacting with it is just as legitimate a play session as dungeons or jumping puzzles or any of our other fantastic content.

John Smith.4610:

I want to go through a hypothetical to explain a point about the TP.
Before I start I want to restate (it was quoted earlier) that the TP is part of the Tyrian world, we don’t make monster killing games here, we make online worlds (in which you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome).

Wanze.8410:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Aidan Savage.2078:

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If you’re here to complain about diction, then leave. I don’t kittening care how you call the gold a flipper gets, he gets more than anybody else.
So players should educate themself, otherwise its their own fault and you’re allowed to exploit them? Are you allowed to exploit people IRL who have a lower education level? no. So why should you be allowed to do so in GW2?
Wanze has made a suggestion called “White Karma”. And if this gets implemented the margin one could get through flipping will shrink.

I have to agree with Aidan, its not diction he is complaining about. Its the fact that rewards for content and profits on the tp are two completely different mechanics.
Rewards are given and balanced by Anet, profits are given and balanced by players.
My karma tax idea would propably bring both a little bit closer together but if players just started asking 15-30% more gold for their loot they sell, it would be the easier and cheaper fix.

We had the discussion already and yes, that’s the reason why the reward for normal activities isn’t that high. But it’s not an argument for flippers making so much gold.
You assume that the prices wouldn’t be that “good” if flipping wouldn’t be possible. That may be true for real life, but seriously, in GW2, when a player gets more gold because he don’t have to pay a flipper, what would he do with that gold? At worst, he would spend it on the traiding post. So the prices would maybe rise a bit because the ordinary player has 15% more gold initially but it wouldn’t have that great of an effect. At the end of the day, the gold would be gone.

Aidan Savage.2078:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

So players should educate themself, otherwise its their own fault.

Yes. Instead of whining and crying that “i haz no monies” you should be spending more time understanding your own market behavior to realize what you need to change to make more money yourself instead of allowing others to make more money by your own shortsightedness. For starters, if you’re always selling to buy orders, you’re losing 5-50% of the money you’d made if you had put up a sell listing. That sell listing doesnt even have to match or undercut by 1c, but can be 10s-10g undercutting depending on how valuable the item is.

Guess what happens when you correct your market behavior over time? Players like wanze finally have serious competition to making money on the TP. The only reason they make so much money that evon’s wealth looks more pitiful than a piggy bank full of change is because players like you cannot provide competition. Well, let me correct that: players like you will not provide competition. Mostly because an ingrained pattern of “BUY NOW” and “SELL NOW” that means those like wanze end up making money of you. You know what? Working as intended. And that’s not even getting into the discussion of how such a mentality is more or less market destructive and working in direct opposition to the end result that flippers and speculators are working towards.

See this illustrates the difference in philosophy in each game mode, the other game modes are inclusive, and its pretty hard to work against each other. In the tp its victimize or be a victim.

And on a side note, this points out the big flaw with these type of systems. They are guided by self interest/competition/information. They dont perform with the balance intended if a signifigant portion of the people are not acting in those manners.

but this comes back to a strong difference in philosophy. The rest of the game is built for people who cooperate, selflessness is built in.

I guess, this is the way trading has to be, however, i think other games solution, is to have pve also be a viable means of obtaining your wants/needs. Then you have like a pvp economy, and a pve economy.

phys.7689:

I guess, this is the way trading has to be, however, i think other games solution, is to have pve also be a viable means of obtaining your wants/needs. Then you have like a pvp economy, and a pve economy.

This game has no need of separate economies because Spvp is in its own bubble, thankfully. And I am glad you are finally realizing that this is how trading has to be or you run into the very real issue of unfairly unbalancing the economy(which is very well balanced since everyone has the same tools to work with outside of easily attainable capital)

But I disagree with your assessment of PvE is not a viable means of obtaining your wants/there are no needs in this game, as has been mentioned previously. The only thing anyone needs to participate in end game content is exotic gear which is easily attainable in a variety of stat combinations from the dungeon token vendors.

phys.7689:

Aidan Savage.2078:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

So players should educate themself, otherwise its their own fault.

Yes. Instead of whining and crying that “i haz no monies” you should be spending more time understanding your own market behavior to realize what you need to change to make more money yourself instead of allowing others to make more money by your own shortsightedness. For starters, if you’re always selling to buy orders, you’re losing 5-50% of the money you’d made if you had put up a sell listing. That sell listing doesnt even have to match or undercut by 1c, but can be 10s-10g undercutting depending on how valuable the item is.

Guess what happens when you correct your market behavior over time? Players like wanze finally have serious competition to making money on the TP. The only reason they make so much money that evon’s wealth looks more pitiful than a piggy bank full of change is because players like you cannot provide competition. Well, let me correct that: players like you will not provide competition. Mostly because an ingrained pattern of “BUY NOW” and “SELL NOW” that means those like wanze end up making money of you. You know what? Working as intended. And that’s not even getting into the discussion of how such a mentality is more or less market destructive and working in direct opposition to the end result that flippers and speculators are working towards.

See this illustrates the difference in philosophy in each game mode, the other game modes are inclusive, and its pretty hard to work against each other. In the tp its victimize or be a victim.

And on a side note, this points out the big flaw with these type of systems. They are guided by self interest/competition/information. They dont perform with the balance intended if a signifigant portion of the people are not acting in those manners.

but this comes back to a strong difference in philosophy. The rest of the game is built for people who cooperate, selflessness is built in.

I guess, this is the way trading has to be, however, i think other games solution, is to have pve also be a viable means of obtaining your wants/needs. Then you have like a pvp economy, and a pve economy.

I looked a bit into the TP, took some tips from this sub-forum and applied some of the knowledge I still had from my studies.
My income rose exponentially just by stepping into some of the opportunities I saw in the TP.
When I got my ascended light armor set completed, I stopped and the gold in my wallet just dropped down again, even though I still did dungeons and farmed a bit in DryTop.
So yeah, if you decide to deal with the economics a bit, you can make a lot of money.

It’s a PvP-situation, however, it’s one you can not avoid.
The rest of Guild Wars 2 is different in design, you can choose the activity you like to participate in and none of it will make you win or lose more than the other content.

Aside from that, there are other differences.
You attack a large champion in PvE and someone joins in? Great! Loot for everyone and you beat it down even faster!
You assault a fort in WvW and someone from your server joins in? Second verse same as the first. Even if a hostile zerg plows you down, all you need to do is respawn, repair your armor for free and join in on the fight again.
Not to mention that every player is actively encouraged to help his allies by reviving or spewing combos.

Go into this sub-forum and you’ll find some friendly people who will share their knowledge. However, ask what they think of the people who don’t engage in the same way with the TP and the friendlyness is often at an end.
Perfectly demonstrated as quoted above.
The philosophy above seems to be: “Do it yourself or kitten off.”

What would happen if everyone in GW2 would stop reviving people? Simply stating that it’s their fault since they didn’t dodge right or shouldn’t go for zerker-gear if they can’t handle it?

eithinan.9841:

(1) You do not get to decide how the game is supposed to be played.

(2) You should not allow other peoples success in life affect your own self worth. And playing the TP is an mmo activity as JS has said. addendum

(3) but it does NOT carry the same risk

(4) You have a problem with the primary currency in GW2 having value unlike every other mmo out there.

1. I am not saying how the game has to be played, I am saying that the same effort put into the game has to be rewarded equaly.

2. My chosen diction wasn’t the optimal one but it is unsatisfying to invest as much into the game as others do, yet some ways to spend time are way more benificial. I disagree with John but he’s the dev, so it’s his answer that matters.

3. We had a long discussion about that and it boils down to the fact that playing the traiding post involves way less risk than some of you want it to look like.

4. I have neither a problem with the acquisition of gold, nor (for the most part) that one could buy almost everything with it. I have a problem with the reward curve.
Other activities have a static reward curve, as more time you invest in one thing, as more gold you get. However you can only invest 24 hour a day maximum.
Playing the traiding post has an exponential reward curve, there is no limit for the gold you spend on the TP.

ok 1 last one that is short and sweet

HHR LostProphet.4801:

1. I am not saying how the game has to be played, I am saying that the same effort put into the game has to be rewarded equaly.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

I feel as player, who plays the MMO how a MMO should be played, aka. doing all the PvE stuff,

You need to stop using the word diction to excuse your mistakes or lack of knowledge.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

2. My chosen diction wasn’t the optimal one

HHR LostProphet.4801:

If you’re here to complain about diction, then leave.

tekfan.3179:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

In answer to the OP, yes, I find that the TP as currently structured is a good match for the kind of social system/philosophy the rest of the game is based on.

• You play how you like (for the most part).
• You can sell most of the stuff you can’t use on the TP for market rates.
• You can buy most of the stuff you want or need on the TP for market rates.
• You don’t have to care at all about the economy, because other people do that for you, including John Smith (in a role that few other games support) and including market players (whose actions end up removing a ton of gold from the game and also keep prices more even than they would be without a “free” market).

That’s pretty close to the ideal setup for the state of MMOs in 2014, in my opinion.

You bring up some good points.

I’d like to know what you mean with “(for the most part)”.

Thanks.

In response to your question, we can only play how we like “for the most part” in GW2:

• If you want top-stats, you must learn to craft; you cannot get ascended armor without it.
• If you want to unlock traits, you must do certain tasks (the same for every character you will ever play).

Thus, aside from a 3-5% stat bonus and maxing out your toon’s potential (traits), you will earn XP and gold by doing just about anything, outside of sneezing or reading the wiki. ANet only “forces” us towards certain content for skins and to see new stories unfold.

edit: added a missed to the last sentence [sic]

HHR LostProphet.4801:

eithinan.9841:

(1) You do not get to decide how the game is supposed to be played.

(2) You should not allow other peoples success in life affect your own self worth. And playing the TP is an mmo activity as JS has said. addendum

(3) but it does NOT carry the same risk

(4) You have a problem with the primary currency in GW2 having value unlike every other mmo out there.

1. I am not saying how the game has to be played, I am saying that the same effort put into the game has to be rewarded equaly.

2. My chosen diction wasn’t the optimal one but it is unsatisfying to invest as much into the game as others do, yet some ways to spend time are way more benificial. I disagree with John but he’s the dev, so it’s his answer that matters.

3. We had a long discussion about that and it boils down to the fact that playing the traiding post involves way less risk than some of you want it to look like.

4. I have neither a problem with the acquisition of gold, nor (for the most part) that one could buy almost everything with it. I have a problem with the reward curve.
Other activities have a static reward curve, as more time you invest in one thing, as more gold you get. However you can only invest 24 hour a day maximum.
Playing the traiding post has an exponential reward curve, there is no limit for the gold you spend on the TP.

I’ve been extremely busy at work, but I needed to take some time to respond to this.

You CANNOT compare rewards from drops to profits from the TP. They are two completely separate things. Like comparing apples to an airplane. Rewards from drops are newly created wealth that never existed in the game. Profits from the TP are existing wealth traded between players, and 15% removed from the economy.

Once you understand why your thought process is flawed, you’ll realize that there will never be this “balance” you seek.

Edit – One additional flaw in your post. TP trading, as with real life, has exponentially more risk than PvEing. If you fail to kill the Shadow Behemoth, the game doesn’t take away Gold from your bank. If you fail at an investment on the TP, you lose value, thus lose money.

phys.7689:

See this illustrates the difference in philosophy in each game mode, the other game modes are inclusive, and its pretty hard to work against each other. In the tp its victimize or be a victim.

And on a side note, this points out the big flaw with these type of systems. They are guided by self interest/competition/information. They dont perform with the balance intended if a signifigant portion of the people are not acting in those manners.

but this comes back to a strong difference in philosophy. The rest of the game is built for people who cooperate, selflessness is built in.

I guess, this is the way trading has to be, however, i think other games solution, is to have pve also be a viable means of obtaining your wants/needs. Then you have like a pvp economy, and a pve economy.

In the rest of the game, your rewards are independent of the player next to you. You both bonk the same critter on the head, you both get RNG “rolls” on the reward table and the similar amount of XP.

The TP is players interacting with each other. phys, you love tossing the word “exploit” around (definition in your use: benefit unfairly from the work of (someone), typically by overworking or underpaying them) but in a market where every player can set their own prices for how much they want for selling X or buying Y, how can one player exploit another?

This is a PoV issue. Is a player selling an item for more than others, exploiting the buyer if a buyer chooses to buy it from them? Or is the player selling the item simply maximizing his income? Is a player buying an item for less than others exploiting the seller if a seller chooses to sell to them? Or is the player buying simply getting a good deal?

It’s how you answer those questions that then where the disconnect comes when you combine those two activities. If it’s okay to maximize your sales income and minimize the costs of your purchases then why is it bad to do both with the same item? In market economics it’s assumed that all the players in the market have the same self interest at heart. Everyone is trying to maximize their income while trying to minimize their costs.

And that’s the heart of the problem some people with flippers. Because a segment of the TP users aren’t trying to maximize their income while minimizing their costs, an opportunity arises for someone else to take up their slack. But is the flipper exploiting those who aren’t interested in using the TP to its full potential?

Player A sells ori ore for 5s to the high bidder. Player B buys ori ore for 6s from the low seller. As long as the high bidder and low seller are two different players, there isn’t a problem for some. However if they are then this Player C is making 10c off of the trades Player A and B are making. To Player A and B, there is no change in their income or cost if there were two different players at the other end of the transaction or the same player, but because it’s the same player, Player C is labeled a filthy exploiter of the masses because he made a profit off if it. That doesn’t work in my book unless you are willing to label the two players who are buying Player A’s ore and selling to Player B in the first scenario exploiters as well for not offering more or selling for less.

eithinan.9841:

phys.7689:

I guess, this is the way trading has to be, however, i think other games solution, is to have pve also be a viable means of obtaining your wants/needs. Then you have like a pvp economy, and a pve economy.

This game has no need of separate economies because Spvp is in its own bubble, thankfully. And I am glad you are finally realizing that this is how trading has to be or you run into the very real issue of unfairly unbalancing the economy(which is very well balanced since everyone has the same tools to work with outside of easily attainable capital)

But I disagree with your assessment of PvE is not a viable means of obtaining your wants/there are no needs in this game, as has been mentioned previously. The only thing anyone needs to participate in end game content is exotic gear which is easily attainable in a variety of stat combinations from the dungeon token vendors.

needs in this case would be the needs for minimal satisfaction before becoming not viable. Just like in relationship, you have needs, but they arent strictly needs, you wont die if you dont get it, however, the relationship may die if you dont get it. Likewise this game will die for a player, if they dont get their needs taken care of.

Even if you choose to ignore this description of needs, there is still wants, and PVE does not give you a feasible method of obtaining most things through pve directly. I was playing the game when the TP wasnt working(opening days), and i will tell you, you could never get the materials to craft to the level you were playing at without the TP. You also had destroy a ton of drops, and you would never be in level appropriate gear of your choosing/chosen stats. Trust that this game is designed to be virtually impossible/painful to get most specific items without using the TP.

and i when i refer to the pvp economy, i mean the TP, not spvp. The tp is a player versus player environment, and a large section of people dont even realize it. They assume everything is fair, and makes sense, which is not always true. I had to tell people not to craft their gear, even though they had the materials, after calculating the cost myself (before gw2spidy and others added this app) because sometimes, the item was worth substantially less the basic materials, which goes against common wisdom. The person who knows these things has a substantial advantage when competing with others.

As far as the economy, it isnt really balanced at all, however it is working, and the barrier to entry into the player versus player trading is pretty low.
I say its not balanced because 90% of activities, do not, and will never perform similarly to the TP merchanting playstyle.

Its fair, but its not balanced. Everyone can choose to play the tp merchant when they need money, but balanced would imply there were many ways to achieve the same success, which isnt really true.

Behellagh.1468:

In the rest of the game, your rewards are independent of the player next to you. You both bonk the same critter on the head, you both get RNG “rolls” on the reward table and the similar amount of XP.

The TP is players interacting with each other. phys, you love tossing the word “exploit” around (definition in your use: benefit unfairly from the work of (someone), typically by overworking or underpaying them) but in a market where every player can set their own prices for how much they want for selling X or buying Y, how can one player exploit another?

This is a PoV issue. Is a player selling an item for more than others, exploiting the buyer if a buyer chooses to buy it from them? Or is the player selling the item simply maximizing his income? Is a player buying an item for less than others exploiting the seller if a seller chooses to sell to them? Or is the player buying simply getting a good deal?

It’s how you answer those questions that then where the disconnect comes when you combine those two activities. If it’s okay to maximize your sales income and minimize the costs of your purchases then why is it bad to do both with the same item? In market economics it’s assumed that all the players in the market have the same self interest at heart. Everyone is trying to maximize their income while trying to minimize their costs.

And that’s the heart of the problem some people with flippers. Because a segment of the TP users aren’t trying to maximize their income while minimizing their costs, an opportunity arises for someone else to take up their slack. But is the flipper exploiting those who aren’t interested in using the TP to its full potential?

Player A sells ori ore for 5s to the high bidder. Player B buys ori ore for 6s from the low seller. As long as the high bidder and low seller are two different players, there isn’t a problem for some. However if they are then this Player C is making 10c off of the trades Player A and B are making. To Player A and B, there is no change in their income or cost if there were two different players at the other end of the transaction or the same player, but because it’s the same player, Player C is labeled a filthy exploiter of the masses because he made a profit off if it. That doesn’t work in my book unless you are willing to label the two players who are buying Player A’s ore and selling to Player B in the first scenario exploiters as well for not offering more or selling for less.

well, people dont like the idea of the word exploit because it feels bad. but yeah there is a lot of exploitation/self interest etc on the TP. It is supposed to form the invisible hand that guides it to equilibrium.

So while you may feel bad about it, yes, any time you seek to gain, by giving someone else less than you believe whatever they do/make/own is worth, you are exploiting them.

Yes, exploitation is a primary driving force in this system(and often in the real world).

Yes, most people need to have a philosophy that exploiting people isnt bad, and its the persons own fault in order to do business successfully without feeling like an ahole.

But really, be objective
if your friend finds a gold rock, and thinks it brass, and you know this and offer him 10 dollars for it, are you not exploiting him?

If one of your friends puts an ad up that they will pay 1000 dollars for a singer to come sing at a show, and you tell your other friend you will give him 400 dollars to sing at this show, are you not exploiting them?

a non exploitive business deal involves both parties trying to pay the value they think something is worth, they may disagree, or compromise, but they both think the value is right. In the case of the flipper this isnt the case, they cannot claim they thought they were giving a good value, because their business is to find the things they know are worth more, and sell them.

how you choose to feel about it is a question of philosophy/what you think is right etc, but the fact remains, if you are gaining, by giving people less than you believe something is worth, you are exploiting them.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

You CANNOT compare rewards from drops to profits from the TP. They are two completely separate things. Like comparing apples to an airplane. Rewards from drops are newly created wealth that never existed in the game. Profits from the TP are existing wealth traded between players, and 15% removed from the economy.

Once you understand why your thought process is flawed, you’ll realize that there will never be this “balance” you seek.

This has been repeated ad nauseum, and those on “the other side” will never acknowledge this because it is the basis of their argument. Remove the base and the rest of the structure falls apart.

However, those who take time to think about it realize that PvE rewards are programmed into the game, it may be randomly selected but there is a specific amount of coin awarded, between A and B, several items chosen from a table with specific chances for specific items, etc.

Anet can reprogram the loot that drops, increasing or decreasing the amount of coin and changing the chances that a rare/exotic/ascended item drops, etc. They control this completely and decide the minimum and maximum range of PvE rewards for all content.

The TP is different. They set a minimum value (vendor price + 1c) and can change this minimum by changing an item’s vendor price (or giving it one). But they cannot set a maximum price, that is up to the players to decide. It is not Anet saying “Dusk is going to cost you 800 gold this week, but next week it’s going to cost 900 gold.”

Rather, it’s the players that say “I’m willing to pay 800 gold for Dusk,” while another says “But I’m willing to pay 900 gold!” This currency is freely given to sellers by the buyers, and Anet cannot tell them “you cannot pay that much for this item!” Nor can they make the seller accept the lower payment when someone else will pay more.

The TP acts a lot like eBay or Craigslist, it creates an efficient way for buyers and sellers to meet, but the TP itself only facilitates the transaction, it does not create or control it. So what the anti-TP posters want is simply not possible for Anet to do without removing the TP as it is now and replacing it with a completely different system.

Considering that the current system is safe, efficient and effective, and working as intended by the Anet devs who created it, there is no compelling reason to remove it and replace it with a marketplace where we can only sell those items and at those prices that Anet dictates. Essentially such a system would be like vendors in single player games, who will buy unneeded equipment for very low prices and sell other equipment for much higher prices. Because there are no other players to sell to, such a system is the best choice for single player games, but it is inferior to the system of player-to-player transactions that we have now.

You didn’t answer my questions phys. Is a player seeking to make the most on a sale, exploiting buyers. Not talking flippers, just sellers. Again with buyers, are buyers seeking to spend the least exploiting sellers?

Behellagh.1468:

You didn’t answer my questions phys. Is a player seeking to make the most on a sale, exploiting buyers. Not talking flippers, just sellers. Again with buyers, are buyers seeking to spend the least exploiting sellers?

I think in his mind, all business is exploitative. A supermarket selling milk is exploiting the customer’s needs to feed their children breakfast, or something like that.

phys.7689:

eithinan.9841:

phys.7689:

I guess, this is the way trading has to be, however, i think other games solution, is to have pve also be a viable means of obtaining your wants/needs. Then you have like a pvp economy, and a pve economy.

This game has no need of separate economies because Spvp is in its own bubble, thankfully. And I am glad you are finally realizing that this is how trading has to be or you run into the very real issue of unfairly unbalancing the economy(which is very well balanced since everyone has the same tools to work with outside of easily attainable capital)

But I disagree with your assessment of PvE is not a viable means of obtaining your wants/there are no needs in this game, as has been mentioned previously. The only thing anyone needs to participate in end game content is exotic gear which is easily attainable in a variety of stat combinations from the dungeon token vendors.

needs in this case would be the needs for minimal satisfaction before becoming not viable. Just like in relationship, you have needs, but they arent strictly needs, you wont die if you dont get it, however, the relationship may die if you dont get it. Likewise this game will die for a player, if they dont get their needs taken care of.

Even if you choose to ignore this description of needs, there is still wants, and PVE does not give you a feasible method of obtaining most things through pve directly. I was playing the game when the TP wasnt working(opening days), and i will tell you, you could never get the materials to craft to the level you were playing at without the TP. You also had destroy a ton of drops, and you would never be in level appropriate gear of your choosing/chosen stats. Trust that this game is designed to be virtually impossible/painful to get most specific items without using the TP.

and i when i refer to the pvp economy, i mean the TP, not spvp. The tp is a player versus player environment, and a large section of people dont even realize it. They assume everything is fair, and makes sense, which is not always true. I had to tell people not to craft their gear, even though they had the materials, after calculating the cost myself (before gw2spidy and others added this app) because sometimes, the item was worth substantially less the basic materials, which goes against common wisdom. The person who knows these things has a substantial advantage when competing with others.

As far as the economy, it isnt really balanced at all, however it is working, and the barrier to entry into the player versus player trading is pretty low.
I say its not balanced because 90% of activities, do not, and will never perform similarly to the TP merchanting playstyle.

Its fair, but its not balanced. Everyone can choose to play the tp merchant when they need money, but balanced would imply there were many ways to achieve the same success, which isnt really true.

I was assuming you meant balanced as in “game balance” synonymous with fair. I now understand you were trying to say the profit from trading is not balanced with rewards from PvE, which has been addressed ad nauseum…

HHR LostProphet.4801:

1. I am not saying how the game has to be played, I am saying that the same effort put into the game has to be rewarded equaly.

That is my claim.

I feel as player, who plays the MMO how a MMO should be played, aka. doing all the PvE stuff,

This is my personal opinion.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

2. My chosen diction wasn’t the optimal one

I’m not a native english speaker, so what?

If you’re here to complain about diction, then leave.

That was an answer to the accusation that I mix up terms.
That I would use the term reward to describe the gold one gets from the TP.
I will proceed to call the margin one gets from the TP reward simply because one does stuff and gets rewarded for doing so. You flip items on the TP and as reward for doing so you get gold. I don’t care in the slightest where you get that gold from, you get it, thus it’s your reward.

Behellagh.1468:

You didn’t answer my questions phys. Is a player seeking to make the most on a sale, exploiting buyers. Not talking flippers, just sellers. Again with buyers, are buyers seeking to spend the least exploiting sellers?

Making the most on a sale is not exploitive if you feel it is the true value. However if you feel it isn’t that valuable, it is.

For example if I sell something on ebay for list price, that o believe is broken or damaged I’m exploiting the buyer.
If I’m an aethiest selling jesus rocks to christians, I’m exploiting them.

However if I’m trying to get how much I think an item is worth, I’m not exploiting.

If I say my company,s car is worth 20,000 dollars because it lasts 20 years with no repairs, then I decrease mt costs with more effecient manufacturing, its still worth 20k, and I am trying to maximize my profit = not exploit
If I try to maximize my profit by making it last 10 years and charge the same I am exploiting people.

To be clear here self interest and exploitation are expected parts of capitalist theory. Everyone actively trying to take advantage of each other is supposed to cancel itself out. I’m not saying anything revolutionary here

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I’ve been extremely busy at work, but I needed to take some time to respond to this.

You CANNOT compare rewards from drops to profits from the TP. They are two completely separate things. Like comparing apples to an airplane. Rewards from drops are newly created wealth that never existed in the game. Profits from the TP are existing wealth traded between players, and 15% removed from the economy.

Once you understand why your thought process is flawed, you’ll realize that there will never be this “balance” you seek.

Edit – One additional flaw in your post. TP trading, as with real life, has exponentially more risk than PvEing. If you fail to kill the Shadow Behemoth, the game doesn’t take away Gold from your bank. If you fail at an investment on the TP, you lose value, thus lose money.

One more time, just for you:
The fact that everything except the traiding post is creating new value is a reason for keeping the creation of new value in check, thus limiting the reward.
However that is no argument to justify unlimited reward from the traiding post.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I’ve been extremely busy at work, but I needed to take some time to respond to this.

You CANNOT compare rewards from drops to profits from the TP. They are two completely separate things. Like comparing apples to an airplane. Rewards from drops are newly created wealth that never existed in the game. Profits from the TP are existing wealth traded between players, and 15% removed from the economy.

Once you understand why your thought process is flawed, you’ll realize that there will never be this “balance” you seek.

Edit – One additional flaw in your post. TP trading, as with real life, has exponentially more risk than PvEing. If you fail to kill the Shadow Behemoth, the game doesn’t take away Gold from your bank. If you fail at an investment on the TP, you lose value, thus lose money.

One more time, just for you:
The fact that everything except the traiding post is creating new value is a reason for keeping the creation of new value in check, thus limiting the reward.
However that is no argument to justify unlimited reward from the traiding post.

Because you don’t understand the fundamental differences between rewards from content, and profit from the TP, you continue to make this incorrect association.
The Trading Post does not offer rewards. I’m not sure if this is just a language barrier that’s preventing you from understanding this.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I’ve been extremely busy at work, but I needed to take some time to respond to this.

You CANNOT compare rewards from drops to profits from the TP. They are two completely separate things. Like comparing apples to an airplane. Rewards from drops are newly created wealth that never existed in the game. Profits from the TP are existing wealth traded between players, and 15% removed from the economy.

Once you understand why your thought process is flawed, you’ll realize that there will never be this “balance” you seek.

Edit – One additional flaw in your post. TP trading, as with real life, has exponentially more risk than PvEing. If you fail to kill the Shadow Behemoth, the game doesn’t take away Gold from your bank. If you fail at an investment on the TP, you lose value, thus lose money.

One more time, just for you:
The fact that everything except the traiding post is creating new value is a reason for keeping the creation of new value in check, thus limiting the reward.
However that is no argument to justify unlimited reward from the traiding post.

Because you don’t understand the fundamental differences between rewards from content, and profit from the TP, you continue to make this incorrect association.
The Trading Post does not offer rewards. I’m not sure if this is just a language barrier that’s preventing you from understanding this.

“Reward: A thing given in recognition of service, effort, or achievement”
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/reward

I don’t know what you understand under the term “reward”, but that’s how I’m using that word. Actually, I do know but I don’t care.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I’ve been extremely busy at work, but I needed to take some time to respond to this.

You CANNOT compare rewards from drops to profits from the TP. They are two completely separate things. Like comparing apples to an airplane. Rewards from drops are newly created wealth that never existed in the game. Profits from the TP are existing wealth traded between players, and 15% removed from the economy.

Once you understand why your thought process is flawed, you’ll realize that there will never be this “balance” you seek.

Edit – One additional flaw in your post. TP trading, as with real life, has exponentially more risk than PvEing. If you fail to kill the Shadow Behemoth, the game doesn’t take away Gold from your bank. If you fail at an investment on the TP, you lose value, thus lose money.

One more time, just for you:
The fact that everything except the traiding post is creating new value is a reason for keeping the creation of new value in check, thus limiting the reward.
However that is no argument to justify unlimited reward from the traiding post.

Because you don’t understand the fundamental differences between rewards from content, and profit from the TP, you continue to make this incorrect association.
The Trading Post does not offer rewards. I’m not sure if this is just a language barrier that’s preventing you from understanding this.

“Reward: A thing given in recognition of service, effort, or achievement”
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/reward

I don’t know what you understand under the term “reward”, but that’s how I’m using that word. Actually, I do know but I don’t care.

Ok, so you quoted a dictionary. Now please tell me what is the “reward” from the TP? Where is your recognition of service, effort, or achievement?

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Ok, so you quoted a dictionary. Now please tell me what is the “reward” from the TP? Where is your recognition of service, effort, or achievement?

You put time and gold (<— efford) into the TP and get gold as reward if you’re successful.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Ok, so you quoted a dictionary. Now please tell me what is the “reward” from the TP? Where is your recognition of service, effort, or achievement?

You put time and gold (<— efford) into the TP and get gold as reward if you’re successful.

No, you just described Profit

“Profit: money that is made in a business, through investing, etc., after all the costs and expenses are paid : a financial gain”

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/profit

Smooth Penguin.5294:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Ok, so you quoted a dictionary. Now please tell me what is the “reward” from the TP? Where is your recognition of service, effort, or achievement?

You put time and gold (<— efford) into the TP and get gold as reward if you’re successful.

No, you just described Profit

“Profit: money that is made in a business, through investing, etc., after all the costs and expenses are paid : a financial gain”

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/profit

Reward includes profit. Profit describes the financial gain of a business, reward describes the gain of anything for doing anything. Still, they can be compared. You do stuff and you get stuff based on the stuff you did.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Ok, so you quoted a dictionary. Now please tell me what is the “reward” from the TP? Where is your recognition of service, effort, or achievement?

You put time and gold (<— efford) into the TP and get gold as reward if you’re successful.

No, you just described Profit

“Profit: money that is made in a business, through investing, etc., after all the costs and expenses are paid : a financial gain”

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/profit

Reward includes profit. Profit describes the financial gain of a business, reward describes the gain of anything for doing anything. Still, they can be compared. You do stuff and you get stuff based on the stuff you did.

Aha! But in an MMO, the “Reward” is drops and acquired wealth via content. “Profit” is from trading those “Rewards” on the TP for a positive gain.

Understand now?

Quick edit – You feel like you should have the same access to Rewards from drops, as we do with Profits from the TP. Taking that into account, do you feel that it’s fair that Steve Jobs made hundreds of millions of dollars selling iPads, while John Doe made minimum wage working at McDonalds crafting burgers?