The TP, a "philosophical" question.
Quick edit – You feel like you should have the same access to Rewards from drops, as we do with Profits from the TP.
The problem: the result of the TP comes from a lot of players throwing money at the rarest items in the game because they want them more than other items. Their value comes from a combination of rarity and demand. The solutions cause their own problems:
1: More money. If players make too much money from the TP, make other activities worth more. But when players have more money, they can spend more to get the items they want (inflation). So, not only do the most demanded items in the game go up in price, everything becomes more expensive. This is why Anet nerfs farming spots, because thousands of players grinding the most rewarding content over and over will only cause prices overall to rise as more currency enters circulation.
2: More drops. If players are competing to get the rarest items in the game, just make them more common. If it’s easier for players to find the highly demanded items, it becomes more likely they will drop and the player can keep it or sell it and buy something else he wants. But the value comes from its rarity, the more common the item becomes, the less it will be worth. So the value of these items drops and players who find or buy them make less money from selling them and eventually finding these formerly rare drops becomes a disappointment as other items replace them as the most desired items.
“Rare” yellow items are like this, despite the label they are not all that rare and most of them are used to salvage or thrown into the MF in search of rarer items. When your toon is geared in exotic/ascended then finding a rare item is not such a big deal, and you get several a day just from the world bosses anyway.
Anet does watch the economy, and has adjusted rewards and drop rates both up and down in the past, and will continue to do so. But they look at the whole game, not an individual’s experience, and they don’t make changes based on how a single player “feels” about his own drops. Hundreds of precursors drop every day, and thousands of other exotics. A method that guarantees these drops like the bonus rare chests has the potential to devalue them to the point where even these items become commonplace and nearly worthless.
lol, you i sometimes wonder if you know what you present to world. I assume so. John Doe is minium wage working for profit the same way Steve Jobs is, its just steve jobs is a lot better at it.
There is no qualitative difference between steve jobs work and what he gained versus minimum wage work man and his gains other than the magnitude of the gains.
I was speaking on HHR’s sense of Entitlement to even/balanced wealth. He feels that John Doe should be Entitled to making the same amount of money that Steve Jobs makes.
Back to the point at hand. He doesn’t understand that by increasing Rewards from content to match Profit potential from TP trading, it’s actually detrimental to the game. 1) Too much newly created items devalues them, and 2) Too much newly created coins devalues the currency, and 3) It creates more of a sense of imbalance, as TP Trader profits go up exponentially as the more money exists in game, the more money they make.
Thank you phys, you’ve now made it quite clear that to you anyone placing a sell order or a bid are exploiters since they are seeking to maximize their earnings or minimize their costs because nobody knows what the true value is. Also the true value is always changing. Therefore unless both parties negotiate a price before hand, which they can’t do using a third party mechanism like the TP, then one is likely exploiting the other.
Therefore the whole notion of the TP is exploitative in nature. That the only players who aren’t exploiting are the ones who always sell to high big and buy from low seller since they’re being exploited by the bidders and and sellers.
RIP City of Heroes
(edited by Behellagh.1468)
Thank you phys, you’ve now made it quite clear that to you anyone placing a sell order or a bid are exploiters since they are seeking to maximize their earnings or minimize their costs because nobody knows what the true value is. Also the true value is always changing. Therefore unless both parties negotiate a price before hand, which they can’t do using a third party mechanism like the TP, then one is likely exploiting the other.
Therefore the whole notion of the TP is exploitative in nature. That the only players who aren’t exploiting are the ones who always sell to high big and buy from low seller since they’re being exploited by the bidders and and sellers.
Items have a real value, most of them do, you can break them down into what they can create, and what value those items have. They also have a value in terms of how you obtain them/how many you can obtain. I can break black lion keys down to how much they are worth (i have) I can break mithril down into what its worth (relative to making rares) i can tell when tier 5 is overpriced, and when teir 6 is underpriced. When you play the mercantile game, you start to see the real value of almost every item, you can even tell how much cheap blues are worth to break down for luck. Whats a good value for crystaline dust etc. In general a lot of these items value is close to correct, even though it usually comes from a top down value representation that comes back to legendaries, (and now some ascended)
How most people will use the TP is in general exploitive. I have exploited people, i remember at some points i made profit on things i could simply change to another form, and get like 20% returns. I have placed buy orders for materials that were undervalued and salvaged them to turn around and sell them. I dabbled in straight flipping, but its a little too far to the exploit for me, i cant even tell myself i am doing them any service.
But i dont trick myself into thinking im not taking advantage. I dont tell my self the people who sell to me have inferior intellegience etc. And to be honest, if there was a more mutually beneficial system, i would work with that.
That said, i didnt have to be exploitive, just using the TP, i could have stayed away from those trades, and focused on ones where i was actually providing a service (sometimes i was) I could have only placed buy orders that represented a value – what i felt i should make on the transaction.
But yeah, i didnt, playing nice is ineffecient, its a cold world, and while i didnt really like it too much, i needed to get that cash for that legendary. With the way the tp is set up, most of the easy profits come not from providing items (because items are generally in abundance) but from capturing the ineffeciencies of other players. The mistakes in values, how are they supposed to know what all sources for this item is, and how much its really worth in terms of other items/time. They just picked it up off a monster.
But see, this is the philosophy of the tp player, and its very different from the philosophy of an open worlder, WvW player (within their server) dungeon runner etc. You really cant profit from other people getting less in any other mode. On the the tp this is the norm, and with that generally comes a more mercenary outlook.
a difference in philosophy
And really i think the design of the economy, not the TP itself is the biggest culprit.
- The game forces people to the TP, who have no idea what anything is worth
- capitalism is based on the idea that everyone who stays in the market is self interested, and aware of the value of what ever they are providing
- Most materials and items are generated with no intent
- capitalism in general is supposed to be corrected not only by demand, but also by production, items that have less value get less production, until they meet the demand curve and provide a reasonable compensation for the good/service
- People cannot go out of business
- people who are not good at business go out of business, this stops people from being able to prey on the weak businessmen as much. Also most people have no idea they are losing as much value as they have on the TP.
If you create a system where even non business minded people must sell everything they get, and in general must purchase everything they need/want. Where people have no control over what they produce, and cannot, not produce, And a market and system most people dont really understand, its almost a natural occurence that mercantile focused people will dominate.
there is a ton of uneducated, uninterested, accidental suppliers, and a just as many buyers with little knowledge and a lot desire, what do you think is going to be the result?
^ I dont’ think there is too many difference between gw2 economy and real life economy. maybe it is too much like real life economy, that is why people complain.
the only difference is we are dealing with virtual money, so people care a bit less. That’s why there is such a large margin between buy and sell order. If we are dealing with real money and commodity, people won’t be this careless.
^ I dont’ think there is too many difference between gw2 economy and real life economy. maybe it is too much like real life economy, that is why people complain.
the only difference is we are dealing with virtual money, so people care a bit less. That’s why there is such a large margin between buy and sell order. If we are dealing with real money and commodity, people won’t be this careless.
Yeah, look at credit cards and mortage loans, people are a lot more careful when it comes to real life money…
Thanks.
In response to your question, we can only play how we like “for the most part” in GW2:
- If you want top-stats, you must learn to craft; you cannot get ascended armor without it.
- If you want to unlock traits, you must do certain tasks (the same for every character you will ever play).
Just to address both of these since they got lost in the clutter of the thread.
- Ascended equipment does not need to be crafted (and for 5 pieces, cannot be), as with proper planning, and enough perseverance, ascended trinkets will allow you to earn ascended armor and weapons via fractals. World bosses and WvW are other sources.
- To unlock traits, you CAN do those specific tasks, otherwise the accumulation of skill points and gold can be used to merely buy those traits.
I suppose if you don’t acknowledge liquidity or risk premiums as legitimate, treat market information as valueless, and treat heterogeneous consumption preferences as some sort of exploitative consumer flaw in a game that you treat as entirely about making some number go up, I guess I can see how you’d consider the trading post exploitative.
Of course, by the same token I suppose you necessarily have to view every transaction in real life as exploitative; that you hold as self evident that trade is necessarily exploitative. This seems crazy to me, but it is at least consistent.
But, then, I understand real value in terms of risk and liquidity, and see information as the single more valuable product of a well functioning market. So I look at something like the combined 5-8% risk, liquidity, and information premium charged to a typical ‘exploited’ player and am impressed by what a good deal they are getting.
I was speaking on HHR’s sense of Entitlement to even/balanced wealth. He feels that John Doe should be Entitled to making the same amount of money that Steve Jobs makes.
Back to the point at hand. He doesn’t understand that by increasing Rewards from content to match Profit potential from TP trading, it’s actually detrimental to the game. 1) Too much newly created items devalues them, and 2) Too much newly created coins devalues the currency, and 3) It creates more of a sense of imbalance, as TP Trader profits go up exponentially as the more money exists in game, the more money they make.
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1. I am not saying how the game has to be played, I am saying that the same effort put into the game has to be rewarded equaly.
It boils down to the fact that the same amount of skill and time put into different parts of the game get rewarded differently, despite they oughtn’t.
To be clear: Playing the traiding post requires not more skill than soloing a dungeon or constant resource farming. Yet the traiding post gives the greatest reward out of any activity, despite the fact that flipping does not require more skill or time. I am not suggesting to raise the reward for all other stuff but to lower the reward one could get through the traiding post. And that does not mean shutting flipping down, but to change the reward-, or profit-, curve from exponential to linear, just as any other reward curve is in this game.
(edited by HHR LostProphet.4801)
You clearly dont comprehend the amount of research it takes to be truly profitable on the TP prophet. We’re back at the example of a stock broker vs punk at McD’s. One is clearly capable of putting together the research and time to make money, while the other wants nothing more than to complain endlessly about “I cant get a better job” when they refuse to make the effort.
And it’s honestly as simple as that. If you want act A to be paid the same as act B, then act A needs to be identical in every single aspect to act B. Dungeon running is not TP flipping, ergo, neither gives the same money. Salvaging isnt dungeon running, crafting isnt salvaging, yadayadayada, see where I’m going with this?
And to quote John, GW2 is not a game on the inside where the economy is hardcoded from the start, it’s a world complete with microcosms and “political” factions who’s independent actions all have an impact on the economy.
So this is the last time I’m going to say this, and ever bother replying to you: Anet cannot, will not, and does not need to change anything regarding how the TP works. You want something done about the profit that the likes of wanze and vol make off it, you need to educate the players who clearly see nothing wrong with bad market behavior. Dont ever ask for a working system to be fixed when it’s plainly obvious it’s a problem with the system’s users.
You clearly dont comprehend the amount of research it takes to be truly profitable on the TP prophet. We’re back at the example of a stock broker vs punk at McD’s. One is clearly capable of putting together the research and time to make money, while the other wants nothing more than to complain endlessly about “I cant get a better job” when they refuse to make the effort.
And it’s honestly as simple as that. If you want act A to be paid the same as act B, then act A needs to be identical in every single aspect to act B. Dungeon running is not TP flipping, ergo, neither gives the same money. Salvaging isnt dungeon running, crafting isnt salvaging, yadayadayada, see where I’m going with this?
And to quote John, GW2 is not a game on the inside where the economy is hardcoded from the start, it’s a world complete with microcosms and “political” factions who’s independent actions all have an impact on the economy.
So this is the last time I’m going to say this, and ever bother replying to you: Anet cannot, will not, and does not need to change anything regarding how the TP works. You want something done about the profit that the likes of wanze and vol make off it, you need to educate the players who clearly see nothing wrong with bad market behavior. Dont ever ask for a working system to be fixed when it’s plainly obvious it’s a problem with the system’s users.
Researching items is a one-time deal. Ofcourse it’s not that simple, you want to check your profit now and then but finding those items is a one-time deal. Furthermore it isn’t even that hard to predict the velocity of the most popular items.
Setting up buy orders and sell offers is the minor part time-wise.
Soloing a dungeon on the other hand is no one-time deal, you always have to be on your toes. It’s not the same thing over and over again, it highly depends on your skill.
You say you need skill too to be effective at flipping, so be it. But don’t overestimate the skill you need to be effective.
Regarding the “perfect system”: The communism was also a perfect system. Each person had the same chances of being successful. Yet the input, the human isn’t. That’s why communism failed, that’s why it always fails. The GW2 economy may be perfect but it doesn’t keep the human nature in check. The GW2 economy can’t fail because noone can get around it. That however doesn’t mean that the GW2 economy is a perfect system. In a perfect world flipping wouldn’t be possible because noone would want to lose gold. Yet the world isn’t perfect but the game should be atleast trying to be balanced. Rewarding the same amount of skill and time put into the game differently isn’t balanced.
(edited by HHR LostProphet.4801)
Researching items is a one-time deal. Ofcourse it’s not that simple, you want to check your profit now and then but finding those items is a one-time deal. Furthermore it isn’t even that hard to predict the velocity of the most popular items.
Setting up buy orders and sell offers is the minor part time-wise.
[snip]
Wrong. Again you show how little you know. No item price is static thus constantly keeping up to date information on trends of each item you are involved in is important. Not a one time deal.
edit: You are a pro troll BTW…
Researching items is a one-time deal. Ofcourse it’s not that simple, you want to check your profit now and then but finding those items is a one-time deal. Furthermore it isn’t even that hard to predict the velocity of the most popular items.
Setting up buy orders and sell offers is the minor part time-wise.
[snip]Wrong. Again you show how little you know. No item price is static thus constantly keeping up to date information on trends of each item you are involved in is important. Not a one time deal.
edit: You are a pro troll BTW…
Pretty much. I had this discussion with I’m in another thread where he made it off as simply gong onto gw2spidy and flipping what he saw had the highest margins. If it’s so easy to flip and make profit easily then why isn’t everyone else doing it? It’s just jealousy that players who don’t play the way that he believes they should play should not be making more gold than him.
To be clear: Playing the traiding post requires not more skill than soloing a dungeon or constant resource farming. Yet the traiding post gives the greatest reward out of any activity, despite the fact that flipping does not require more skill or time. I am not suggesting to raise the reward for all other stuff but to lower the reward one could get through the traiding post. And that does not mean shutting flipping down, but to change the reward-, or profit-, curve from exponential to linear, just as any other reward curve is in this game.
To be clear: all activities EXCEPT the Trading Post create “rewards”. The Trading Post is merely a tool which allows players to trade their rewards with other players for other rewards. You are not rewarded for using the Trading Post by ArenaNet. You are rewarded by other players for offering an exchange that they felt was fair.
To be clear: Playing the traiding post requires not more skill than soloing a dungeon or constant resource farming. Yet the traiding post gives the greatest reward out of any activity, despite the fact that flipping does not require more skill or time. I am not suggesting to raise the reward for all other stuff but to lower the reward one could get through the traiding post. And that does not mean shutting flipping down, but to change the reward-, or profit-, curve from exponential to linear, just as any other reward curve is in this game.
To be clear: all activities EXCEPT the Trading Post create “rewards”. The Trading Post is merely a tool which allows players to trade their rewards with other players for other rewards. You are not rewarded for using the Trading Post by ArenaNet. You are rewarded by other players for offering an exchange that they felt was fair.
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One more time, just for you:
The fact that everything except the traiding post is creating new value is a reason for keeping the creation of new value in check, thus limiting the reward.
However that is no argument to justify unlimited reward from the traiding post.
Profit from the TP is not unlimited. End of story.
One more time, just for you:
The fact that everything except the traiding post is creating new value is a reason for keeping the creation of new value in check, thus limiting the reward.
However that is no argument to justify unlimited reward from the traiding post.
This was an incorrect statement when you first made it and has not improved with age.
Limiting the ability of players to trade with each other leads to inefficient markets. Inefficient markets mean buyers pay more for goods and sellers receive less for goods.
Ergo, limiting the trading post causes all players to be poorer overall.
Researching items is a one-time deal. Ofcourse it’s not that simple, you want to check your profit now and then but finding those items is a one-time deal. Furthermore it isn’t even that hard to predict the velocity of the most popular items.
Setting up buy orders and sell offers is the minor part time-wise.
[snip]Wrong. Again you show how little you know. No item price is static thus constantly keeping up to date information on trends of each item you are involved in is important. Not a one time deal.
edit: You are a pro troll BTW…
Pretty much. I had this discussion with I’m in another thread where he made it off as simply gong onto gw2spidy and flipping what he saw had the highest margins. If it’s so easy to flip and make profit easily then why isn’t everyone else doing it? It’s just jealousy that players who don’t play the way that he believes they should play should not be making more gold than him.
There is difference between something being hard and something people aren’t interested in.
The only reason the tp is more profitable is because the game is designed to not be that profitable for anyone else. Top 5% tp player versus top 5% anything else, tp player gets more value.
Don’t say players trading value versus game gemeration, because the game actively discourages players from trading value in anyway besides the tp. This is design, not evolution.
Once again this all comes back to philosophies
They actovely decided tp mitigate player differemces based on skill/time to make the game what they think of as better, but that philosphy is absent in trade design
Learning to flip is no more difficult than running dungeons or other activities. All of which require some form of skill and effort. Obviously there’s a time investment involved at the beginning to build the necessary skill set. If players do not want to do this then it’s there own fault and they really have nobody to blame but themselves.
The game is not specifically designed so that TP flippers will be more profitable than everyone else. It’s a byproduct. Anyone can make gold off the TP with a very little research that at least paces how much you make from other activities.
I know you have more of a socialistic viewpoint on how an economy should be but that’s not how it was designed in this game.
Learning to flip is no more difficult than running dungeons or other activities. All of which require some form of skill and effort. Obviously there’s a time investment involved at the beginning to build the necessary skill set. If players do not want to do this then it’s there own fault and they really have nobody to blame but themselves.
The game is not specifically designed so that TP flippers will be more profitable than everyone else. It’s a byproduct. Anyone can make gold off the TP with a very little research that at least paces how much you make from other activities.
I know you have more of a socialistic viewpoint on how an economy should be but that’s not how it was designed in this game.
And in this game unlike almost all other mmo’s the main currency of gold actually has value and has kept its value with a moderate amount of inflation since the beginning. Truly an impressive accomplishment for JS and the devs.
Researching items is a one-time deal. Ofcourse it’s not that simple, you want to check your profit now and then but finding those items is a one-time deal. Furthermore it isn’t even that hard to predict the velocity of the most popular items.
Setting up buy orders and sell offers is the minor part time-wise.
[snip]Wrong. Again you show how little you know. No item price is static thus constantly keeping up to date information on trends of each item you are involved in is important. Not a one time deal.
edit: You are a pro troll BTW…
Pretty much. I had this discussion with I’m in another thread where he made it off as simply gong onto gw2spidy and flipping what he saw had the highest margins. If it’s so easy to flip and make profit easily then why isn’t everyone else doing it? It’s just jealousy that players who don’t play the way that he believes they should play should not be making more gold than him.
Seriously, you start harassing me, while “quoting” something I haven’t even said. Your arguments don’t get any better. You’re still claiming that being effective at the traiding post requires the uber-skill while disparaging any other way to make gold as less skillbased. You act like the whole game centers around your traiding post and you being the holy angel harming nobody. Everyone is supposed to glance up to you and embrace your wisdom. And if it’s not that way then atleast you make it look like it.
Researching items is a one-time deal. Ofcourse it’s not that simple, you want to check your profit now and then but finding those items is a one-time deal. Furthermore it isn’t even that hard to predict the velocity of the most popular items.
Setting up buy orders and sell offers is the minor part time-wise.
[snip]Wrong. Again you show how little you know. No item price is static thus constantly keeping up to date information on trends of each item you are involved in is important. Not a one time deal.
edit: You are a pro troll BTW…
Pretty much. I had this discussion with I’m in another thread where he made it off as simply gong onto gw2spidy and flipping what he saw had the highest margins. If it’s so easy to flip and make profit easily then why isn’t everyone else doing it? It’s just jealousy that players who don’t play the way that he believes they should play should not be making more gold than him.
Seriously, you start harassing me, while “quoting” something I haven’t even said. Your arguments don’t get any better. You’re still claiming that being effective at the traiding post requires the uber-skill while disparaging any other way to make gold as less skillbased. You act like the whole game centers around your traiding post and you being the holy angel harming nobody. Everyone is supposed to glance up to you and embrace your wisdom. And if it’s not that way then atleast you make it look like it.
Would you like me to quote your posts from that thread? There’s a difference between harassing you and challenging your posts. You make the same argument based on your personal opinions, whilst ignoring everyone else’s argument, in thread after thread. Of course you’re going to be constantly challenged and it may appear to seem like you’re being harassed.
Your argument about what I said in regards to skill between the TP and everything else is a strawman argument. They requiring different skill sets does not equate to one requiring more skill than the other. Nice try though.
I don’t act like the whole game centers around the TP. It doesn’t. It’s also not harming anyone as pointed out by many people in this thread and others.
(edited by Ayrilana.1396)
Would you like me to quote your posts from that thread? There’s a difference between harassing you and challenging your posts. You make the same argument based on your personal opinions, whilst ignoring everyone else’s argument, in thread after thread. Of course you’re going to be constantly challenged and it may appear to seem like you’re being harassed.
Your argument about what I said in regards to skill between the TP and everything else is a strawman argument. They requiring different skill sets does not equate to one requiring more skill than the other. Nice try though.
I don’t act like the whole game centers around the TP. It doesn’t. It’s also not harming anyone as pointed out by many people in this thread and others.
Here ya go. And the only argument you’re presenting is that flipping requires skill that justifies the large margin one can get from the traiding post. Yet I don’t see what skill is required exactly. The only thing a flipper has to bring is knowledge. Knowledge about the margin certain items offer, knowledge about their velocity, knowledge about their past pricelistings. Once you got that knowledge you can start and draw connections, develop rhythms in which the margin for items is the greatest. Gw2spidy does a great deal of that since you don’t have to collect the data. All the data you need is being presented by gw2spidy. You have to find the right items and watch the newsfeed, in case if there’s a new item coming out soon.
Even if traiding post flipping requires you to be really good at it, requires twice the amount of engagement you need to solo a dungeon, or to be good at the “endgame” content the game offers, that would only justify twice the margin one could get through playing ordinary PvE, aka. a stable maximum-reward curve and not an exponential reward curve.
Even if traiding post flipping requires you to be really good at it, requires twice the amount of engagement you need to solo a dungeon, or to be good at the “endgame” content the game offers, that would only justify twice the margin one could get through playing ordinary PvE, aka. a stable maximum-reward curve and not an exponential reward curve.
You CANNOT compare rewards from drops to profits from the TP. They are two completely separate things. Like comparing apples to an airplane. Rewards from drops are newly created wealth that never existed in the game. Profits from the TP are existing wealth traded between players, and 15% removed from the economy.
Once you understand why your thought process is flawed, you’ll realize that there will never be this “balance” you seek.
Déjà vu
@Ayrilana:
Now let’s end the discussion here because it’s just a matter of opinions from now on.
Your opinion is that the skill required for flipping justifies the exponential profit curve,
However in my opinion it does not.
I will leave this discussion with my favoured statement that equal skill required, in no matter which part of the game, should be treated equally. And in my opinion the skill required to play the traiding post does not exceed the skill required to be super effective in other parts of the game.
You can leave a last statement too if you want.
@Smooth Penguin:
I would answer with the same statement I did last time simply because you’ve still not understood that your argument DOESN’T FIT.
(edited by HHR LostProphet.4801)
Again, you have relatively no idea how much work successful flippers put into what they do. You claim it’s so easy just by going onto gw2spidy yet then why isn’t everyone doing it? It’s pretty obvious that you haven’t even attempted to try it and are stating that it’s easy with absolutely no experience. It’s no different than a new player saying Arah is easy without having done it because people can just watch the video tutorials.
Now let’s end the discussion here because it’s just a matter of opinions from now on.
Your opinion is that the skill required for flipping justifies the exponential profit curve,
However in my opinion it does not.I will leave this with my favoured statement that equal skill required, no matter in which part of the game, should be treated equally. And in my opinion the skill required to play the traiding post does not exceed the skill required to be super effective in other parts of the game.
You can leave a last statement too if you want.
Actually, we’re using more than just opinions. Your arguments are about how they should be based on your personal opinions without any justification as to why.
Now let’s end the discussion here because it’s just a matter of opinions from now on.
Actually, we’re experts in this field, and thus our points are all facts. Yours is the only opinion, which is incorrectly placed because you don’t understand the difference between Rewards from content, and Profit from the TP. Two completely, fundamentally different things. But I don’t fault you for not understanding how an MMO economy works. We, as players, aren’t required to be knowledgeable in business or virtual economies. However, because the Trading Post is an integral part of the GW2 world, people like us who do understand business and virtual economies have the advantage over other players.
@Ayrilana:
Now let’s end the discussion here because it’s just a matter of opinions from now on.Your opinion is that the skill required for flipping justifies the exponential profit curve,
However in my opinion it does not.I will leave this with my favoured statement that equal skill required, no matter in which part of the game, should be treated equally. And in my opinion the skill required to play the traiding post does not exceed the skill required to be super effective in other parts of the game.
You can leave a last statement too if you want.
So you want ArenaNet to actually give me gold on top of what I’m already getting whenever I flip things? Because that’s what it would take for flipping to be treated equally as there are currently no in-game rewards for using the trading post.
Now let’s end the discussion here because it’s just a matter of opinions from now on.
Your opinion is that the skill required for flipping justifies the exponential profit curve,
However in my opinion it does not.I will leave this with my favoured statement that equal skill required, no matter in which part of the game, should be treated equally. And in my opinion the skill required to play the traiding post does not exceed the skill required to be super effective in other parts of the game.
You can leave a last statement too if you want.
Actually, we’re using more than just opinions. Your arguments are about how they should be based on your personal opinions without any justification as to why.
What, can you measure how much skill you need to be effective? Since when can you argue about how much time you spend trying to find items that can be flipped. And who are you to say that your way to play the game is so much more skillbased than any other part of the game?
@ Smooth Penguin:
Thanks, I really needed a good laugh.
@ mtpelion:
I would say we’re not on the same page but it seems like we’re not even reading the same book.
@ mtpelion:
I would say we’re not on the same page but it seems like we’re not even reading the same book.
You said that equal skill should get equal pay. ArenaNet currently pays exactly 0 to flippers. To make things equal, you would have to ask ArenaNet to start paying flippers.
@ mtpelion:
I would say we’re not on the same page but it seems like we’re not even reading the same book.You said that equal skill should get equal pay. ArenaNet currently pays exactly 0 to flippers. To make things equal, you would have to ask ArenaNet to start paying flippers.
Where did I say that ANet should pay you? Where did I mention the source of the gold you or any other player get?
Where did I say that ANet should pay you? Where did I mention the source of the gold you or any other player get?
Right here:
… equal skill required, in no matter which part of the game, should be treated equally. And in my opinion the skill required to play the traiding post does not exceed the skill required to be super effective in other parts of the game.
There are only two ways we can read your statement:
1. ArenaNet, in order to be fair, must start paying flippers because they are not currently being paid.
2. ArenaNet, in order to be fair, must stop paying out gold for ALL parts of the game.
@ Smooth Penguin:
Thanks, I really needed a good laugh.
Because you said you were German in a previous post, allow me to use Google translate to help:
Da jedoch der Trading Post ist ein integraler Bestandteil des GW2 Welt, die Menschen wie uns, die verstehen, Geschäfts-und virtuellen Ökonomien haben den Vorteil gegenüber anderen Spielern.
Where did I say that ANet should pay you? Where did I mention the source of the gold you or any other player get?
Right here:
… equal skill required, in no matter which part of the game, should be treated equally. And in my opinion the skill required to play the traiding post does not exceed the skill required to be super effective in other parts of the game.
There are only two ways we can read your statement:
1. ArenaNet, in order to be fair, must start paying flippers because they are not currently being paid.
2. ArenaNet, in order to be fair, must stop paying out gold for ALL parts of the game.
You are talking about the source of the gold. But I’m talking about the amount of gold one should be able to get.
Now let’s end the discussion here because it’s just a matter of opinions from now on.
Your opinion is that the skill required for flipping justifies the exponential profit curve,
However in my opinion it does not.I will leave this with my favoured statement that equal skill required, no matter in which part of the game, should be treated equally. And in my opinion the skill required to play the traiding post does not exceed the skill required to be super effective in other parts of the game.
You can leave a last statement too if you want.
Actually, we’re using more than just opinions. Your arguments are about how they should be based on your personal opinions without any justification as to why.
What, can you measure how much skill you need to be effective? Since when can you argue about how much time you spend trying to find items that can be flipped. And who are you to say that your way to play the game is so much more skillbased than any other part of the game?
@ Smooth Penguin:
Thanks, I really needed a good laugh.@ mtpelion:
I would say we’re not on the same page but it seems like we’re not even reading the same book.
Since this doesn’t seem to be sinking in, I’ll say it multiple times in bolded text as repetition is key.
I said that TP flipping requires a different skill set, not more skill. I said that TP flipping requires a different skill set, not more skill. I said that TP flipping requires a different skill set, not more skill. I said that TP flipping requires a different skill set, not more skill. I said that TP flipping requires a different skill set, not more skill. I said that TP flipping requires a different skill set, not more skill.
Please actually read what I say rather than make up some fictional argument that you think is coming from me.
You are talking about the source of the gold. But I’m talking about the amount of gold one should be able to get.
Why is the amount of gold that other players are willing to give to me in exchange for goods I am willing to give to them relevant to you or to ArenaNet?
@ Smooth Penguin:
Thanks, I really needed a good laugh.Because you said you were German in a previous post, allow me to use Google translate to help:
Da jedoch der Trading Post ist ein integraler Bestandteil des GW2 Welt, die Menschen wie uns, die verstehen, Geschäfts-und virtuellen Ökonomien haben den Vorteil gegenüber anderen Spielern.
Quick tip: Don’t use google translator, it doesn’t work.
So you are saying that playing the traiding post is the “endgame” which requires uber-skill and everyone who’s not participating is either too bad or too stupid. Thanks for that explanation, fortunately you don’t make the rules here.
Since this doesn’t seem to be sinking in, I’ll say it multiple times in bolded text as repetition is key.
I said that TP flipping requires a different skill set, not more skill. I said that TP flipping requires a different skill set, not more skill. I said that TP flipping requires a different skill set, not more skill. I said that TP flipping requires a different skill set, not more skill. I said that TP flipping requires a different skill set, not more skill. I said that TP flipping requires a different skill set, not more skill.
Please actually read what I say rather than make up some fictional argument that you think is coming from me.
He’s actually talking about his Entitlement to having as much Gold as someone who works kitten the Trading Post. So if he’s skilled at farming Grawls, he feels he should make as much money as someone flipping Precursors, because he puts in as much “effort” as the next guy.
Quick tip: Don’t use google translator, it doesn’t work.
So you are saying that playing the traiding post is the “endgame” which requires uber-skill and everyone who’s not participating is either too bad or too stupid. Thanks for that explanation, fortunately you don’t make the rules here.
There’s a difference between being “stupid” and “not understanding mechanics”. I’m not saying anyone who doesn’t play the TP is “stupid”, but rather people who understand it have an advantage. Just like in real life. Stock brokers have more advantage in trading on Wall Street, than the hotdog vendor selling food at the ballpark.
(edited by Smooth Penguin.5294)
You are talking about the source of the gold. But I’m talking about the amount of gold one should be able to get.
Why is the amount of gold that other players are willing to give to me in exchange for goods I am willing to give to them relevant to you or to ArenaNet?
Because the amount of gold you get is not proportional to the work you had to do to get it, in comparison to other parts of the game which require the same amount of work.
Because the amount of gold you get is not proportional to the work you had to do to get it, in comparison to other parts of the game which require the same amount of work.
First, that is an opinion, not a fact.
Second, that doesn’t answer my question.
Because the amount of gold you get is not proportional to the work you had to do to get it, in comparison to other parts of the game which require the same amount of work.
First, that is an opinion, not a fact.
Second, that doesn’t answer my question.
Probably because he’s fixated on equating the act of placing buy orders and sell orders with the act of running dungeons or spending an hour mashing 1 at world bosses.
Because the amount of gold you get is not proportional to the work you had to do to get it, in comparison to other parts of the game which require the same amount of work.
First, that is an opinion, not a fact.
Second, that doesn’t answer my question.
It’s an opinion, as I’ve said earlier. The amount of skill required can’t be that much higher that it justifies the way higher margin. Your opinion can be different, you can say in your opinion the skill required does justify the margin. As I’ve said it boils down to opinions of what is a reasonable measurement of wealth-gaining capablilities.
And it should be relevant to ANet since monopolies are always bad and becuase ANet should try to balance the game. The traiding post now is like the warrior was in PvP: dominating. One could argue that all the players should stop whining and should play warriors instead. But that’s neither balanced nor fun.
(edited by HHR LostProphet.4801)
Because the amount of gold you get is not proportional to the work you had to do to get it, in comparison to other parts of the game which require the same amount of work.
First, that is an opinion, not a fact.
Second, that doesn’t answer my question.Probably because he’s fixated on equating the act of placing buy orders and sell orders with the act of running dungeons or spending an hour mashing 1 at world bosses.
Actually in my mind someone who’s mashing 1 at a world boss does accomplish more than the one who is typing numbers in the traiding post.
Learning to flip is no more difficult than running dungeons or other activities. All of which require some form of skill and effort. Obviously there’s a time investment involved at the beginning to build the necessary skill set. If players do not want to do this then it’s there own fault and they really have nobody to blame but themselves.
The game is not specifically designed so that TP flippers will be more profitable than everyone else. It’s a byproduct. Anyone can make gold off the TP with a very little research that at least paces how much you make from other activities.
I know you have more of a socialistic viewpoint on how an economy should be but that’s not how it was designed in this game.
And in this game unlike almost all other mmo’s the main currency of gold actually has value and has kept its value with a moderate amount of inflation since the beginning. Truly an impressive accomplishment for JS and the devs.
First off: I don’t know how many MMO’s you played, but by my experience the development of a specific “value” for ingame-currency always occurs as soon as the game actively offers the ability to purchase ingame-currency with real money.
Look at EVE online or pretty much every just slightly moderated private server of the generic asian grind-MMO’s and you will see this kind of development.
That is not to de-value the work of Mister Smith and the team around him.
Second: The design of the TP, compared to the rest of the game is the discussion here. You think the TP is not “socialistic”.
However that may be, go into any PvE-map or the general WvW-zerk and you will see something barely any game manages. Something that is far more precious and rare than a “currency with value”: Players actively helping each other, even for a neglectable reward of XP. The game taught them that, how is this? A general sense of cooperation by a clever game-design.
Stopping by to rez people or simply help them to fight in a skill-point-challenge, placing siege-equipment for other players in WvW…I could go on for a while like that.
There are no comments like “Well, your loss to respawn at the next waypoint for a fee, since you’re not skilled enough to dodge.” instead people go to the player, rez him and go on playing together.
Wether you chose to play PvE or make teams in PvP and help your allies.
Also the game leaves you the choice to play whatever you like.
In my oppinion the TP ignores all of that: The TP is forced. There is no way to trade with other players without the risk of a scam.
And you know what? Once you get the angle the TP isn’t that much of a challenge, I agree on that. Compared to the market-system of EVE Online, where you can’t just place educated buy- and sell-orders at one single NPC, the BLTC is a piece of cake.
In EVE the traders even live with things like regional markets, giant PvP-wars shifting the balance of power in a single night and last but not least: Players being given an actual player-to-player trading-window to directly trade with one other player.
The fact is: You have to deal with the GW2-TP in order to make no losses which is contrary to every other part of GW2. You can ignore PvP, you can ignore PvE, the TP actively discourages players who don’t like to engage with it.
Players feel the PvE and PvP being devalued. The TP to be unfair.
Even after dealing a bit with the TP and making the small fortune I needed, I can still understand that.
Someone runs all paths of the Ascalon-Dungeon, finishes a Fractal, conquers some keeps in WvW, then has to sell his loot at the TP if he has no use for it.
Then this player want’s to buy some orichalcum ore to craft something and just witnesses how a stack for 5s is being bought just to magically reappear in a more expensive sell-order further down the list for 6s.
After some research, he goes into these forums and sees people discuss how exactly such a move offered something like 10c per ore for a flipper, while in the end the consumer needs to pay one silver more per ore.
Yay, someone who has a desire for besaid ware has to pay 2.5g more so someone else could make 25s of profit while having no interest in this ware aside from reselling it. Basically burning two dungeon-paths for 25% of a single dungeon-path. All of this with one simple reselling, done in around 10 seconds if you’re slow at clicking.
One could argue that all the players should stop whining and should play warriors instead. But that’s neither balanced nor fun.
The TP wasn’t made for fun. It’s a tool that allows players to trade with others on an open market. Because some of us find trading to be fun, doesn’t mean that it was designed as such.
And it should be relevant to ANet since monopolies are always bad and becuase ANet should try to balance the game. The traiding post now is like the warrior was in PvP: dominating. One could argue that all the players should stop whining and should play warriors instead. But that’s neither balanced nor fun.
There is no monopoly in play. ArenaNet cannot attempt to balance players’ subjective decisions to trade items with objective rewards from content. It just isn’t possible. That’d be like ArenaNet saying “Sorry HHR, but you enjoy PvE too much so we’re going to force you to play more PvP from now on”.
When I say “I want to sell this apple for $1” and Smooth Penguin says “I want to buy that apple for $1” and we make a trade, YOU are not impacted in any way as YOU are not a party to the transaction. Our deal does not help or hurt you or ArenaNet in any way, thus our deal (the TP) is not relevant to how much money you get paid at your job. They are distinctly unrelated and cannot be compared without the result being nonsense.
One could argue that all the players should stop whining and should play warriors instead. But that’s neither balanced nor fun.
The TP wasn’t made for fun. It’s a tool that allows players to trade with others on an open market. Because some of us find trading to be fun, doesn’t mean that it was designed as such.
Ok, please forgive me the following outrage:
THIS IS A kittenING GAME, WHICH HAS BEEN MADE TO HAVE kittenING FUN! IF A KEY ELEMENT OF GAME, WHICH SHOULD BE FUN, IS NOT FUN, THEN THIS GAME IS kittenING BAD!
I think GW2 is not a bad game but it can be made more fair, thus more fun. That’s why I’m on the forums.
@tekfan:
One could say that normal PvE does not encourage helping each other because you don’t get punished for not helping them. A proper response to that would be that the TP actually punishes for being nice and helpful.