Guild Wars 2

Dragonar.1342:

The discussion is about almost all rewards being buy/sell -able.
Most important topic: a legendary
Resulting in grind/farm.
Imo money (gold) is way too dominating in this game.

@john
I would like to see you a bit more open-minded in these threads.
This subforum will never work (productive) if you continue to react this way.

PS
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/How-to-make-200-600-gold-a-day/first#post3469037

How do you expect someone to respond to fallacies, or assumptions based on misunderstood mechanics? There’s a science behind how economies work. A player can disagree with things all they want, but the fact remains things are working for the best interest for the economy as a whole. If nothing was tradable, then you’d have a situation where there would be an explosion of complaints about grind, since a player would have to spend months to years to obtain each and every piece to craft their Ascended or Legendary gear.

Gold is a dominating factor, because that’s the main currency in game. Just like how the US Dollar is the main currency in America, and the basis of trade for the rest of the world.

morrolan.9608:

John Smith.4610:

As far as other ideas like the GW2 economy has rampant inflation or there are other virtual economists online that don’t approve of this economy, that’s simply not even close to true.

These contain some criticisms:

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/LaurenMorton/20130708/195789/The_Soulless_MachineHow_the_Trading_Post_is_Tearing_Your_Players_Apart.php

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/RaminShokrizade/20130426/191346/Guild_Wars_2_Economy_Review.php

Are either of these people economists? As in, someone who has both an education focused on economics and works in the field? I didn’t see any kind of credentials in the blog posts, only this:

The following blog post, unless otherwise noted, was written by a member of Gamasutra’s community.
The thoughts and opinions expressed are those of the writer and not Gamasutra or its parent company.

Anyone can make a blog post and throw it up somewhere on the Internet. Why should I listen to these people?

John Smith.4610:

Let’s calm down a bit.
I’ve already had a long post explaining why TP traders are good for the game as well as limited, if you haven’t seen it, you should look it up.

As far as other ideas like the GW2 economy has rampant inflation or there are other virtual economists online that don’t approve of this economy, that’s simply not even close to true.

As they may be good for the economy, there is much more to games then economies. That’s where the two clash. Making a synergy between a healthy environment and economy is crucial. When ones prosperity feeds off the other there is an issue.

I’ve read your post. It implies that trading potential is limited by 2 things. 1) Number of players trading and 2) The amount of gold/resources created in the game. Idk if would call that exactly finite in terms of the game. In real life considerations yes, but not in game considerations. I understanding why trading is good for the game, but simply not unregulated trading.

Why is unregulated trading good for the game considering all of it’s effects?

Remember there is more to games than just economies. Since this game is tied so heavily to ours, ripples in it send waves throughout the environment where there is more than just numbers. Letting the numbers remotely stifle such a core of a game is a mistake. Idk if you play games or not (I have an idea), but please consider things other than just the numbers.

Essence Snow.3194:

As they may be good for the economy, there is much more to games then economies. That’s where the two clash. Making a synergy between a healthy environment and economy is crucial. When ones prosperity feeds off the other there is an issue.

I find statements like this unbelievable. Anyone can be very successful in this game without even doing ‘economy’ stuff. The health of the game is really not as tied to the economy as many people would like to believe.

Furthermore, no one says players have to use the TP to buy/sell their stuff either. If you think the risk is worth the reward, don’t use it.

I filled my HoM in GW1 without doing speed clears or having to rely on trading. All just me and my heroes.

After an entire year of playingGW2, I haven’t got a stack of T6 materials big enough to do anything at all. And those I got were from the clover recipe trying to get 77 clovers, as it took me AGES to get 77 clovers, as I never got them from the recipe, and the only rares I ever got were from world bosses and guild missions, and from those I rarely got any ecto salvaged at all.
Now they are waiting in my bank, as I don’t think I’ll get enough materials for a legendary in less than 10 years.

There’s a small group of people that have been using and abusing all money making schemes since the start. You know them guys who were the first ones with a commander badge, then all covered in CoF armor from their CoF runs.
They take ages to fix those, and instead making sure there’s no more fast money making schemes, they add expensive stuff so those that earn more sink their gold, leaving out anyone who doesn’t play that way.

Then others who want to also have fun with them shinnies feel like the only way to get anything done before GW2 closes or goes automated like GW1 is by following those money making schemes too.
And then they will complain when they get fixed because ANet has removed “the only way to make moneys”.

And those who hurried to exploit the schemes keep high amount of gold as they can buy more, craft more and afford to sell high and keep their money high.

Just look at the prices in the toxic spore vendor, or the prices of the stuff in halloween.
They are clearly designed with high-income players with single characters in mind.

Have several characters or play roaming around and perform a variety of tasks instead focusing in making coin in the single fastest task, and you are screwed.

THAT, not the TP, is what they should fix. The TP just reflects the issue, it’s not creating it.

Essence Snow.3194:

John Smith.4610:

Let’s calm down a bit.
I’ve already had a long post explaining why TP traders are good for the game as well as limited, if you haven’t seen it, you should look it up.

As far as other ideas like the GW2 economy has rampant inflation or there are other virtual economists online that don’t approve of this economy, that’s simply not even close to true.

As they may be good for the economy, there is much more to games then economies. That’s where the two clash. Making a synergy between a healthy environment and economy is crucial. When ones prosperity feeds off the other there is an issue.

I’ve read your post. It implies that trading potential is limited by 2 things. 1) Number of players trading and 2) The amount of gold/resources created in the game. Idk if would call that exactly finite in terms of the game. In real life considerations yes, but not in game considerations. I understanding why trading is good for the game, but simply not unregulated trading.

Why is unregulated trading good for the game considering all of it’s effects?

Remember there is more to games than just economies. Since this game is tied so heavily to ours, ripples in it send waves throughout the environment where there is more than just numbers. Letting the numbers remotely stifle such a core of a game is a mistake. Idk if you play games or not (I have an idea), but please consider things other than just the numbers.

So you think the solution to everyone’s problems is regulation of our free market? Do you mean to put minimum/maximums on each item, so that no one can sell too low or too high, based on Anet’s valuations of each specific item? No thank you. At that point, you turn the TP into a glorified merchant. It’s where Anet controls all prices, instead of how it is now where players are the ones to determine the values.

As others have stated, everyone has access to the Trading Post, and everyone has equal chance to profit. Just because one person is unable to make money, while someone else can afford to buy Legendaries, that’s not a valid excuse to call it unhealthy.

Just as in the real world, everyone had a chance to be a Bill Gates or Steve Jobs. They started with an idea, and ran with it. Same as in GW2. Players saw potential in items, and invested. You put in the thought process and effort, and you can be rewarded.

There’s more to this game than economics, you’re right. But if you’re so focused on why someone in game is more successful than you are, you forget that there’s stories, lore, and a bit of PvP in the game. If you’re envious of someone who made a lot of money by using an in-game tool, take the time to learn it yourself, and try your hand at our little TP mini-game we traders play.

*A note of caution – Not everyone wins on the TP. I’ve personally lost a lot of money from poor investments, and even more from missed opportunities.

morrolan.9608:

John Smith.4610:

As far as other ideas like the GW2 economy has rampant inflation or there are other virtual economists online that don’t approve of this economy, that’s simply not even close to true.

These contain some criticisms:

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/LaurenMorton/20130708/195789/The_Soulless_MachineHow_the_Trading_Post_is_Tearing_Your_Players_Apart.php

When I read this I couldn’t just laugh it up and browse on through the forums. The difference between ’ other virtual economists online that don’t approve of this economy’ and a video game blogger talking about how efficient the GW2 trading system is, but complaining that it is ‘without spirit’ and how she doesn’t get to talk to other people while selling things is just…. staggering. Absolutely staggering.

Essence Snow.3194:

The main issue arises when every single other avenue is regulated. It also has exponential potential where as other avenues are linear. So the gap between anything else and trading only grows by leaps and bounds….ie it is not balanced at all compared to anything else in the game at completing objectives, since most all objectives can be bought.

It seems like your thoughts on this are inverted? The Trading Post has a finite (though large) amount of potential profit available from trading on it. It is limited by the goods (and currency) currently available. The more people are aware of the areas of the market that can return profits, the less profit there is to be made by individuals using this approach. Similarly, an individual can only make a certain amount of money in a particular segment of the market before that ‘runs dry’ for the time and there are insufficient other parties participating in it.

On the other hand, an infinite amount of new wealth can be added to the game via ingame actions. Unlike reality, where there is only a finite supply available, the more people that jump on the Zerg Train to farm Champions, the more wealth is being created. They are not competing for some capped resource, but instead each getting their own coin without any competition. The more players come and join in, the larger the potential wealth this creates grows without any limits.

As to the OP’s initial complaint, the problem seems to be with the encouragements given to players, not with the game’s economy. The problem here is not that the Trading Post is somehow ruining everything. It is that players feel that they need to go out and grind in order to get Ascended gear right now. Which is certainly something that requires some thought and perhaps new encouragements being provided by Arena.Net, but not in adjustments to how the TP works.

I’m not sure why you’d think any regulation would have to be so extreme. That’s not remotely what I think would be adept to the situation.

A simple regulation that still allowed a healthy amount of trading, but with a limit to extremes. In that manner traders could still profit. Even moreso than other avenues even. It would simply be regulated as not to have the extreme potential that it has now. To at least keep it from running away from the rest of the game even though it already has.

Maybe something of a progressive tax…where traders could still make plenty of profit and more gold would be sunk helping to further keep the economy in check.

Again it wouldn’t have to be that extreme at all. Idk why everyone always argues that it does.

RedShipRaider.9560:

It seems like your thoughts on this are inverted? The Trading Post has a finite (though large) amount of potential profit available from trading on it. It is limited by the goods (and currency) currently available. The more people are aware of the areas of the market that can return profits, the less profit there is to be made by individuals using this approach. Similarly, an individual can only make a certain amount of money in a particular segment of the market before that ‘runs dry’ for the time and there are insufficient other parties participating in it.

On the other hand, an infinite amount of new wealth can be added to the game via ingame actions. Unlike reality, where there is only a finite supply available, the more people that jump on the Zerg Train to farm Champions, the more wealth is being created. They are not competing for some capped resource, but instead each getting their own coin without any competition. The more players come and join in, the larger the potential wealth this creates grows without any limits.

What you are referring to as “infinite amount of new wealth” is one of the 2 points made to define trading as finite. How does one thing get limited by an “infinite source”?

*note the " "

Essence Snow.3194:

Again it wouldn’t have to be that extreme at all. Idk why everyone always argues that it does.

I’m still waiting to hear why regulation is even necessary at any level. What is the goal of implementing regulatory measures?

Essence Snow.3194:

What you are referring to as “infinite amount of new wealth” is one of the 2 points made to define trading as finite. How does one thing get limited by an “infinite source”?

*note the " "

At any given point there are a finite amount of goods and currency in the game world. That is what limits the profit that can be made via the Trading Post. This is why different words are used for describing different things, such as how I used the words ‘currently available’ when talking about the wealth that is available across the game at that moment and ‘potentially’ when talking about future growth.

EDIT: Another way of explaining the same thing that might work better….

At any given time, you could build a model of GW2’s economy. This is because there is only a finite amount of wealth in the game at that moment. If you build another model a week later it might be larger than the last model, because more wealth has been farmed up. It might be smaller than the last model, because players have been using up resources. But no matter what point in time you choose, there will be a finite amount of wealth in the game.

Conversely, there is no such limit on the amount of wealth that can be introduced into the game by player actions. If five players do a dungeon speedrun they each get 1.5 gold, in addition to whatever else happens to drop for them. So the next moment that you make a model, it will have grown by 7.5 gold from this ingame action. If 50 people do this the model grows by 75 gold. If 5,000 people do it then the model grows by 7,500 gold. If you want to get really absurd you could say that 50 million GW2 accounts worth of people doing this dungeon speed run are beyond the technical capacity of Arena.Net’s infrastructure, but if they were selling that many accounts then they would quickly respond to fix this. ;-)

1. Raise your account MF. You’ll start seeing good stuff around 75% though.
2. Not for me. Some of the ascended stuff is ugly in design. Trans stones can fix that though.
3. You think Mastering craft disciplines is for the elite? Yes, they are costly, but very much within the reach of most players if you are willing to work for it.
4. I don’t agree with the constant buffing of the legendary items, but they’re just rare skins with the ability to change stats. This far into the game, I know what stats I want and what build I want to run with my toons. I don’t use flavor of the month builds. I play for me. I can still get the stats I want.
5. There are always users in all games that want speed clears. To use definite words like ‘masses’ is a misinterpretation of our users. From my perspective, users just want to get certain content and just go with the flow because it’s ‘easier’.
6. I don’t care about minis. They mean nothing to me. I only collected them in the first game for skins in this one. I don’t see them as a token of skill. They could have just gotten lucky or just road the coattails of another.
7. I just see this topic as a well organized kitten. Work for what you want. It’s not as difficult as you are trying to make it. I’ve played other MMOs and GW2 isn’t nearly as bad.

Apolyon.6937:

…and while this may be good to the community as whole, it is not that good for the players as individuals.

• The drop rates for quality items are too low.
• Dungeon tokens become outdated due to ascended gear.
• Mastering crafting disciplines used to be something for everybody, now is hardcore zone.
• Legendaries… enough have been said about them.

The masses are driven to FS champion train or dungeon speed clears.

So far I can only think of one thing that shows off for how “good” player you are, and that is the mini Liadri.

I know that I am part of a minority, but please, for this minority, give us more Liadris and less farming and TP playing.

Let me share with you what a playing session looks like now:

Me: Hey, somebody doing something?
Player A: Nah, I still have to run through all of Orr with three more toons to collect all the nodes.
Player B: Hey, does somebody have some linen? where I can farm it?
Me: Well, does somebody want to do some dungeon?
Player C: I already run CoF 1 today, sorry
Player Sure, let’s speed clear CoE, all paths, bring a zerker warrior
Me: But my warrior does not have exotic gear yet
Player oh sorry then
Me: OK, I’ll do some solo queue then… 4vs4 here I go… all is vain
log off

I may just miss the time when we were still discovering dungeons and got frustrated for how difficult they used to be, and learnt how to beat them… I’d love to see difficult content for groups, I want to play with my guild again instead of waiting for they farming for their third ascended weapon.

Sorry for the rant >.< I just had a bad day :p

RedShipRaider.9560:

Essence Snow.3194:

What you are referring to as “infinite amount of new wealth” is one of the 2 points made to define trading as finite. How does one thing get limited by an “infinite source”?

*note the " "

At any given point there are a finite amount of goods and currency in the game world. That is what limits the profit that can be made via the Trading Post. This is why different words are used for describing different things, such as how I used the words ‘currently available’ when talking about the wealth that is available across the game at that moment and ‘potentially’ when talking about future growth.

Any guess on what kind of numbers we are talking about? 1-10 million gold/resources?

Criticisms about the reward structure of the game being poorly designed are well taken; there just aren’t enough cool things to get in the game, and just about everything you get is crafting materials or soon to be turned into them. That’s a solid criticism, though not one about the trading post – it’s a criticism of item design.

Calling the trading post soulless is very true – it is a very efficient way of trading, but as a game maker you aren’t necessarily looking for the most efficient system, but the most fun, and fun systems have obstacles to overcome. Sitting around shouting in town to trade, for instance, is a more satisfying ‘trading’ experience than point and click on a trading post interface; the question is how much do you want to make people play the trading game instead of making that super efficient so players can get back to doing what they really want to do.

The only really major technical criticism I have is the 5% listing fee, which puts a much higher risk premium on selling than buying and increases the value of market knowledge immensely (since listing is so risky); those risk premiums accrue to knowledgeable traders not common players. Sure, it’s boring, but it does its job very well.

In reference to that first link at Gamasutra, I’ve never played an MMO where you had to hawk the stuff you wanted to sell to other players. There was always a nice soulless intermediary that took care of the whole messy affair. And honestly that should be the way. Why should I have to become a virtual “Crazy Eddie” every time I come back from the outlands? I want to be out there adventuring and not be forced to split my time between peddler and adventurer.

As for the 2nd link, other than a few errors here and there, it was more of a treatise on the crafting system and how crafting isn’t normally profitable and that you can buy better gear at the TP cheaper than the stuff you are crafting for yourself. So it’s not the economy as in money supply and inflation that’s broken but the crafting economy that’s broken. And I agree with that.

And when they introduced the “wallet” it became trivial to twink your new character with decent items from Level 1 on. True your first character had to trudge through the times when you couldn’t afford greens over blues and simply lived off the drops that were compatible. But once you get a level 80 and some gold under your belt, just one gold can make a huge difference to a new level 1 character.

Ensign.2189:

Sitting around shouting in town to trade, for instance, is a more satisfying ‘trading’ experience than point and click on a trading post interface;

I would disagree. It’s much more satisfying to search for deals and figure out the value of things through an interface where everything is listed than sit around in town spamming/scanning chat hoping the right person decided to log in and hang around town to trade. Some folks enjoy going to the flea market and haggling over every purchase – I prefer my “one-click” buy button on Amazon.

The unfortunate thing is that the TP and the flea market don’t coexist well unless there’s some separation in the goods being sold. A TP for commodities and a flea market for selling crafting services might work. Instead of a trade interface, it would be an interface to offer materials/gold in exchange for a crafted item. I vaguely recall WoW having some sort of interface in the trade window for enchanting/disenchanting.

There’s just no point however in direct trading in addition to the TP when the items are commodities. All it does is make it harder to know the real value of things and let the folks with a tolerance for standing around spamming chat bypass a gold sink.

John Smith.4610:

Let’s calm down a bit.
I’ve already had a long post explaining why TP traders are good for the game as well as limited, if you haven’t seen it, you should look it up.

As far as other ideas like the GW2 economy has rampant inflation or there are other virtual economists online that don’t approve of this economy, that’s simply not even close to true.

This is a Mmorpg…not an economist forum

Also you are dodging the fact, that economy is totally bad for non tp flippers.

I know that the overall economy SEEMS working, unfortunately when you take the most players and analyze their situations you ll see how today most of them:

-can t afford ANY luxury item differently from the game launch..

-Also the can t no longer afford BIS equipment.

(NOTE how those are possibly the 2 most important part of this game)
While market flippers have so much money to even attempt to manipulate certain items….

How is this different for those player from the mmorpgs with the most broken economy like lineage2 or diablo3?
Imho its not…..

Can you answer this without the usual “you are not an economist” or “i have data i cannot show you?”

Exactly because we are not economist you should answer our concerns…..because our gaming experience is being ruined by this game economy despite all the excuses.

LordByron.8369:

Also you are dodging the fact, that economy is totally bad for non tp flippers.

I know that the overall economy SEEMS working, unfortunately when you take the most players and analyze their situations you ll see how today most of them:

-can t afford ANY luxury item differently from the game launch..

-Also the can t no longer afford BIS equipment.

How do you know this to be true for most players? You state it as a fact, but there is no way that you could know what the majority of players can or can’t afford or how the players with lots of gold got it.

I understand why that’s your perception if you’re basing it off of what you see on the forums, but keep in mind that the folks that are doing well in terms of gold accumulation generally aren’t going to post to the forums to brag about it and they certainly aren’t sharing their gold making “secrets” with the public.

Essence Snow.3194:

I’m not sure why you’d think any regulation would have to be so extreme. That’s not remotely what I think would be adept to the situation.

A simple regulation that still allowed a healthy amount of trading, but with a limit to extremes. In that manner traders could still profit. Even moreso than other avenues even. It would simply be regulated as not to have the extreme potential that it has now. To at least keep it from running away from the rest of the game even though it already has.

Maybe something of a progressive tax…where traders could still make plenty of profit and more gold would be sunk helping to further keep the economy in check.

Again it wouldn’t have to be that extreme at all. Idk why everyone always argues that it does.

I’d like to hear more about this progressive tax. I can’t think of anything feasible that can be coded to deal with high-volume traders. There will always be loopholes. Make a suggestion and I will find ways to circumvent it.

Vol.7601:

Essence Snow.3194:

I’m not sure why you’d think any regulation would have to be so extreme. That’s not remotely what I think would be adept to the situation.

A simple regulation that still allowed a healthy amount of trading, but with a limit to extremes. In that manner traders could still profit. Even moreso than other avenues even. It would simply be regulated as not to have the extreme potential that it has now. To at least keep it from running away from the rest of the game even though it already has.

Maybe something of a progressive tax…where traders could still make plenty of profit and more gold would be sunk helping to further keep the economy in check.

Again it wouldn’t have to be that extreme at all. Idk why everyone always argues that it does.

I’d like to hear more about this progressive tax. I can’t think of anything feasible that can be coded to deal with high-volume traders. There will always be loopholes. Make a suggestion and I will find ways to circumvent it.

No offense, but when you have this mindset that you will “circumvent” something before you know what it is, there is no point in me discussing it with you.

I log into a game to have fun and enjoy the atmosphere while trying to escape the problems and issues in real life.

When the economy in game makes me feel as bad as the economy in real life makes me feel, there is a problem.

Huge gold sinks were created to offset the influx of materials/gold introduced by a few farming events. If you didn’t farm those events, you are left out in the cold.

Nerfs to every farming spot out there has left the game in a state where you can’t just pick up and spend some extra time to catch up. You get way too little for your efforts. Reminds me of real life. Sadly.

But I am to be led to believe that there is no hint of any type of inflation going on in this game?

Essence Snow.3194:

No offense, but when you have this mindset that you will “circumvent” something before you know what it is, there is no point in me discussing it with you.

It also means that there is no point in you even thinking about it, because your idea is flawed from the get go.

Restrictions, regulations, etc. outside of consumer protections NEVER have a positive impact on an economy. All they do is force routes around the rules that wind up hurting the general public even more than whatever perceived problem the rules were intended to address ever did.

Also, progressive taxes are probably the most blatant sign of a jealous person possible.

No offense.

mtpelion.4562:

Essence Snow.3194:

No offense, but when you have this mindset that you will “circumvent” something before you know what it is, there is no point in me discussing it with you.

It also means that there is no point in you even thinking about it, because your idea is flawed from the get go.

Restrictions, regulations, etc. outside of consumer protections NEVER have a positive impact on an economy. All they do is force routes around the rules that wind up hurting the general public even more than whatever perceived problem the rules were intended to address ever did.

Also, progressive taxes are probably the most blatant sign of a jealous person possible.

No offense.

I don’t really understand that logic. So no matter what I say, it would be flawed b/c suggesting it would be refuted not on merit but b/c of an initial stance?

The second bit is a bold statement. Do you have anything to back that up?

Jealous? Idk bout that. I play too much to need much of anything in the game. What I am concerned about however is newer players and more casual players. Since they make up the mass population I am very concerned with keeping them populating the game.

Essence Snow.3194:

I don’t really understand that logic. So no matter what I say, it would be flawed b/c suggesting it would be refuted not on merit but b/c of an initial stance?

The second bit is a bold statement. Do you have anything to back that up?

Jealous? Idk bout that. I play too much to need much of anything in the game. What I am concerned about however is newer players and more casual players. Since they make up the mass population I am very concerned with keeping them populating the game.

There are two basic sources that people derive their political beliefs from, liberty of the individual or power of the society. Because these two sources are essentially mutually exclusive, people who come from these two sides cannot debate each other because everything the other side says is perceived as nonsense. People like you believe people like me to be greedy, nasty, money-grubbing misers who would kill off whole nations to make a buck. People like me believe people like you are raving lunatics who don’t understand basic economic principles. Because we cannot conceive each other’s sources as rational, we cannot debate. That is why I pointed out that no matter what you say, people like myself and others will dismiss it as irrational.

I’ll give you the biggest example in American economic history. The Sherman Anti-Trust Act. Intended to stop horizontal monopolies, it created the impetus for the formation of vertical monopolies which quickly became VASTLY more powerful and profitable than any horizontal monopoly ever could of become. The intended action not only failed to stop the concept of the monopoly, it forced the creation of a new and even more “dangerous” (in the mind of the pro-government person) form of monopoly in order to skirt the rules. A more recent example was the “Great Recession”. During the Clinton Administration, new laws and rules were put in place in order to effect what was believed to be a “noble goal” of higher minority home ownership rates. Basically, banks were incentivized to offer loans to people who would not have otherwise qualified as long as they were a minority. Banks willingly took the incentive, but realized how dangerous these loans were so they began to bundle the loans and sell them as a high risk investment. These investments later became known as “toxic assets” because when property values dipped, the investments became worthless which triggered the economic nosedive (as property values declined, more of these investments failed leading to foreclosures, as more foreclosures occurred, property values declined causing a spiral effect). A law with “noble intentions” lead to one of the greatest economic collapses in history.

Wealth Controls are commonly associated with people who either don’t have anything and want what others have, or who want to incite angry, emotional actions amongst those who don’t have anything in order to use them to kill off their political foes. Other than those two groups, there are also the well-meaning, but misinformed philosopher types, who view economics through a very limited lens that prevents them from seeing how bad their ideas are.

Essence Snow.3194:

Vol.7601:

Essence Snow.3194:

I’m not sure why you’d think any regulation would have to be so extreme. That’s not remotely what I think would be adept to the situation.

A simple regulation that still allowed a healthy amount of trading, but with a limit to extremes. In that manner traders could still profit. Even moreso than other avenues even. It would simply be regulated as not to have the extreme potential that it has now. To at least keep it from running away from the rest of the game even though it already has.

Maybe something of a progressive tax…where traders could still make plenty of profit and more gold would be sunk helping to further keep the economy in check.

Again it wouldn’t have to be that extreme at all. Idk why everyone always argues that it does.

I’d like to hear more about this progressive tax. I can’t think of anything feasible that can be coded to deal with high-volume traders. There will always be loopholes. Make a suggestion and I will find ways to circumvent it.

No offense, but when you have this mindset that you will “circumvent” something before you know what it is, there is no point in me discussing it with you.

Any time you come up with an idea, you need to look at the good and the bad, especially the repercussions.

What will happen to x, y, z?
When will it happen? Why?
Is it easy to fix? Will this problem be short term, or will it destroy the game in the long run?
Is this fair? Are there any areas that can be exploited?

If you fail to plan out these things, the results can be disastrous and inconvenient like a rollback.

Essence Snow.3194:

Vol.7601:

Essence Snow.3194:

I’m not sure why you’d think any regulation would have to be so extreme. That’s not remotely what I think would be adept to the situation.

A simple regulation that still allowed a healthy amount of trading, but with a limit to extremes. In that manner traders could still profit. Even moreso than other avenues even. It would simply be regulated as not to have the extreme potential that it has now. To at least keep it from running away from the rest of the game even though it already has.

Maybe something of a progressive tax…where traders could still make plenty of profit and more gold would be sunk helping to further keep the economy in check.

Again it wouldn’t have to be that extreme at all. Idk why everyone always argues that it does.

I’d like to hear more about this progressive tax. I can’t think of anything feasible that can be coded to deal with high-volume traders. There will always be loopholes. Make a suggestion and I will find ways to circumvent it.

No offense, but when you have this mindset that you will “circumvent” something before you know what it is, there is no point in me discussing it with you.

I don’t believe Vol is trying to circumvent your idea, I think they are saying despite a tax system being implemented to allow for circulation, or trickle down effect, of profits the high volume traders would find a way around it and avoid the tax. A little bit like the ultra rich do in real life. Oops, mentioned real life, please don’t ban me.

Obtena.7952:

Essence Snow.3194:

Again it wouldn’t have to be that extreme at all. Idk why everyone always argues that it does.

I’m still waiting to hear why regulation is even necessary at any level. What is the goal of implementing regulatory measures?

Because the lack of regolation and the use of TP as the only trading system is forcing players in a PVP minigame they DON T WANT to play.

And since this is not market wars 2 that is totally wrong.

Any for of farming have Always been regulated but the TP….
I know that the difference is farming produce gold, and TP doesn t , YET TP produce INFLATION directly on luxury items.

LordByron.8369:

Obtena.7952:

Essence Snow.3194:

Again it wouldn’t have to be that extreme at all. Idk why everyone always argues that it does.

I’m still waiting to hear why regulation is even necessary at any level. What is the goal of implementing regulatory measures?

Because the lack of regolation and the use of TP as the only trading system is forcing players in a PVP minigame they DON T WANT to play.

And since this is not market wars 2 that is totally wrong.

Any for of farming have Always been regulated but the TP….
I know that the difference is farming produce gold, and TP doesn t , YET TP produce INFLATION directly on luxury items.

Incorrect. The TP only ever reduces inflation because it deletes money from the economy.

Also, inflation on luxury items isn’t ever a problem, because they are luxury items and therefore are only able to be afforded by the people who are least impacted by inflation (the rich).

I think that people feel that every other money making method is limited in some way, whereas the TP is not, which is “unfair”. This viewpoint assumes that GW2 is trying to limit the amount of money a player can make. I think GW2 is trying to limit the amount of money that’s created by the whole economy and they don’t give a fig about individual player wealth.

If money is created from nothing (source), then it has to be regulated or inflation occurs. Sinks also have to be regulated, but only to the extent that they a) provide a reasonable exit for money from the economy and b) are not too burdensome of the gamers as a whole.

Because the TP does not create any money, it’s not a source. Therefore it does not need to be (and therefore is not) regulated.

I also think that there is a gameplay element that goes lacking with the TP. It is absolutely more fun to have an exotic greatsword drop from a monster than to buy one of the TP. But good drops are only exciting because they don’t happen very often. Look at rares. I use to get a little happy when I got a rare drop . Now they happen often enough that I don’t really respond to them anymore.

Cassocaster.4576:

Essence Snow.3194:

Vol.7601:

Essence Snow.3194:

I’m not sure why you’d think any regulation would have to be so extreme. That’s not remotely what I think would be adept to the situation.

A simple regulation that still allowed a healthy amount of trading, but with a limit to extremes. In that manner traders could still profit. Even moreso than other avenues even. It would simply be regulated as not to have the extreme potential that it has now. To at least keep it from running away from the rest of the game even though it already has.

Maybe something of a progressive tax…where traders could still make plenty of profit and more gold would be sunk helping to further keep the economy in check.

Again it wouldn’t have to be that extreme at all. Idk why everyone always argues that it does.

I’d like to hear more about this progressive tax. I can’t think of anything feasible that can be coded to deal with high-volume traders. There will always be loopholes. Make a suggestion and I will find ways to circumvent it.

No offense, but when you have this mindset that you will “circumvent” something before you know what it is, there is no point in me discussing it with you.

I don’t believe Vol is trying to circumvent your idea, I think they are saying despite a tax system being implemented to allow for circulation, or trickle down effect, of profits the high volume traders would find a way around it and avoid the tax. A little bit like the ultra rich do in real life. Oops, mentioned real life, please don’t ban me.

Exactly.

Let me think of one such scenario that people would suggest
1.) Limit the quantity of transactions according to current gold on hand.
Potential loopholes:
-Use personal guild storage for gold bank
-convert gold into highly liquid (i.e. worthless, vendor value) items
-send gold to alt accounts through the mail

Potential concerns:
-results in low velocity of money, prohibits spending when players want to, resulting in a poor economy
-Inefficient and unfair posting – system cannot recognize between two transactions of 100 Vicious fangs posted one after another versus 200 vicious fangs sold at once. The former will reduce your limit by 2.
-Increased arbitrage opportunities, which nullifies your objective – since players will be mindful of their transaction limits, they may limit their posting to the end of the day. This will result in very few transactions during off-peak gaming hours and a large fluctuation in price according to time of day.

Ensign.2189:

Criticisms about the reward structure of the game being poorly designed are well taken. . . .

Calling the trading post soulless is very true – it is a very efficient way of trading, but as a game maker you aren’t necessarily looking for the most efficient system, but the most fun.

This. I think a lot of people are losing sight of the end goal – to create a fun game. Maximal efficiency and fun are not always synonymous. It is entirely possible to create a highly functional and efficient economy that is absolutely no fun to participate in.

Of course, fun is subjective, which is why games such as this one provide a wide variety of activities. Even if you don’t find X activity fun, you can still enjoy Y activity. The problem arises when the game mechanics strongly incentivize one activity to the detriment of others, leading to feelings that if you want any of the rewards that the game designers clearly intend for you to want (better equipment, new cosmetics, etc), you feel “forced” to participate in an activity that doesn’t meet your definition of fun.

In its quest for economic efficiency, I would argue the trading post has done damage to other areas of the game, because the reward mechanics in every other area must take the trading post into account. Drop rates must be so low that as an individual player, attempting to find particular items out in the world is nearly (though not technically) impossible so as not to flood the global TP with supply. And most every reward must be tradeable, or simply come in the form of gold to begin with, because being able to trade things you don’t want for things you do want is efficient. This turns the TP into the reward center of the game, where everyone goes to get the reward they want because it’s so hard to do so through other activities.

At times, it seems as if the rest of the game is designed to meet the needs of the trading post, rather than the trading post being designed to meet the needs of the game and all the many other activities that it encompasses. I think that is something worth discussing.

mtpelion.4562:

LordByron.8369:

Obtena.7952:

Essence Snow.3194:

Again it wouldn’t have to be that extreme at all. Idk why everyone always argues that it does.

I’m still waiting to hear why regulation is even necessary at any level. What is the goal of implementing regulatory measures?

Because the lack of regolation and the use of TP as the only trading system is forcing players in a PVP minigame they DON T WANT to play.

And since this is not market wars 2 that is totally wrong.

Any for of farming have Always been regulated but the TP….
I know that the difference is farming produce gold, and TP doesn t , YET TP produce INFLATION directly on luxury items.

Incorrect. The TP only ever reduces inflation because it deletes money from the economy.

Also, inflation on luxury items isn’t ever a problem, because they are luxury items and therefore are only able to be afforded by the people who are least impacted by inflation (the rich).

Totally false…

If i could buy for example a sigil of generosity for 1 gold, i istead have to pay 15 because a flipper created false demand…and thus decreased gold value.

If i have to buy anything a flipper is controlling i have to pay:
-item cost
-15% inital item taxes the flipper paid
-15% of flipper selling cost
-X% flipper margin.

Thus my gold lost a huge part of this value….thus inflation.
Looking just to a little part of the process helps flippers convincing themselves they are doing good.

As said there are reason why there are things like antitrust and such in real economy.
What is illegal in real is legal in GW2.

mtpelion.4562:

LordByron.8369:

Obtena.7952:

Essence Snow.3194:

Again it wouldn’t have to be that extreme at all. Idk why everyone always argues that it does.

I’m still waiting to hear why regulation is even necessary at any level. What is the goal of implementing regulatory measures?

Because the lack of regolation and the use of TP as the only trading system is forcing players in a PVP minigame they DON T WANT to play.

And since this is not market wars 2 that is totally wrong.

Any for of farming have Always been regulated but the TP….
I know that the difference is farming produce gold, and TP doesn t , YET TP produce INFLATION directly on luxury items.

Incorrect. The TP only ever reduces inflation because it deletes money from the economy.

Also, inflation on luxury items isn’t ever a problem, because they are luxury items and therefore are only able to be afforded by the people who are least impacted by inflation (the rich).

Hold up a moment. The comment was based on LUXURY items, not the entire TP catalog. The luxury market is a gold MAGNET for the sellers (not the economy necessarily) and is inflationary because of supply and demand. Items that are one use (soulbound on use or acquire) are highly instable because they are “want” items, not “need” items. As in: “I don’t need Twilight, I want Twilight”. An exotic greatsword can be had for less than the superior sigil you put on it, that market has been pretty flat, “I need a greatsword for my build and this is the cheapest exotic I can find”.

I am happy with ascended weapons but won’t make ascended armor because the cost in mats doesn’t equate to any performance I might gain, IMO.

As I stated in my earlier post, look at gw2spidy for precursors and legendaries, the ultimate luxury items. They have doubled in price in the last 6 months. For those items, inflation is rampant despite what JS says about the economy as a whole. One could argue that this is speculation and opportunistic profiteering but again, you cannot spend someone else’s money nor can you say what something is worth to another person. You might only be willing to spend 2 gold on any one exotic piece whereas another person might be willing to pay 4 gold for that same item. You cannot dictate to that user that it’s not fair that they are “wasting” their 2 gold to buy an item you cannot afford or have set a cap on.

The argument that started this all really boils down to the “haves” and “have nots” and has grown into a dissertation on the GW2 economy by self-styled, amateur economists, myself included. I think I may just leave this be and go to read only mode….

LordByron.8369:

Totally false…

If i could buy for example a sigil of generosity for 1 gold, i istead have to pay 15 because a flipper created false demand…and thus decreased gold value.

If i have to buy anything a flipper is controlling i have to pay:
-item cost
-15% inital item taxes the flipper paid
-15% of flipper selling cost
-X% flipper margin.

Thus my gold lost a huge part of this value….thus inflation.
Looking just to a little part of the process helps flippers convincing themselves they are doing good.

As said there are reason why there are things like antitrust and such in real economy.
What is illegal in real is legal in GW2.

LoL at “false demand”. Either demand exists or it doesn’t, the source of the demand is 100% irrelevant.

It also appears you don’t understand what inflation is. Inflation, summarized, is a reduction in the purchasing power of a currency.

VERY BASIC Example Explaining the Concept: Let’s say you make $1,000 a week and your bills add up to $500 a week meaning you get to keep 50% of your money (500/1000). Now you and everyone else got a raise and you now make $1,100 a week. Knowing that you and everyone else now has an extra $100 a week, your bill company charges an extra $100 a week. Now you make $1,100 a week and your bills are $600 a week. This means that even though you are making more money, you only get to keep 45% of your money (500/1100). Essentially, the $500 a week you get to keep is worth less than the $500 a week you got to keep before because everything costs more now.

@Cassocaster: Inflation is not a price rise for a product, or even an industry. Luxury items are subject to heavy price fluctuations due to the fact that the people buying them have LOTS of money and the fact that supply is generally very limited (which is usually what makes an item a luxury item in the first place). That is not related to inflation.

Cassocaster.4576:

mtpelion.4562:

LordByron.8369:

Obtena.7952:

Essence Snow.3194:

Again it wouldn’t have to be that extreme at all. Idk why everyone always argues that it does.

I’m still waiting to hear why regulation is even necessary at any level. What is the goal of implementing regulatory measures?

Because the lack of regolation and the use of TP as the only trading system is forcing players in a PVP minigame they DON T WANT to play.

And since this is not market wars 2 that is totally wrong.

Any for of farming have Always been regulated but the TP….
I know that the difference is farming produce gold, and TP doesn t , YET TP produce INFLATION directly on luxury items.

Incorrect. The TP only ever reduces inflation because it deletes money from the economy.

Also, inflation on luxury items isn’t ever a problem, because they are luxury items and therefore are only able to be afforded by the people who are least impacted by inflation (the rich).

The argument that started this all really boils down to the “haves” and “have nots” and has grown into a dissertation on the GW2 economy by self-styled, amateur economists, myself included. I think I may just leave this be and go to read only mode….

I’ve really tried doing that myself, but that would only breed more misinformed and biased posters here. It would turn BLTC subforum into a complete circlejerk.

Sometimes you need people to keep others in check!

John Smith.4610:

Let’s calm down a bit.
I’ve already had a long post explaining why TP traders are good for the game as well as limited, if you haven’t seen it, you should look it up.

Tried to use the search engine here, but couldn’t find it. Perhaps a link to the info or, even better, fix the search function.
Thanks John.

Blude.6812:

Tried to use the search engine here, but couldn’t find it. Perhaps a link to the info or, even better, fix the search function.
Thanks John.

Clicking on John’s name should allow you to look back on all his previous posts. It’s certainly not an elegant solution, but it will work… eventually.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Why-manipulate-that

mtpelion.4562:

Blude.6812:

Tried to use the search engine here, but couldn’t find it. Perhaps a link to the info or, even better, fix the search function.
Thanks John.

Clicking on John’s name should allow you to look back on all his previous posts. It’s certainly not an elegant solution, but it will work… eventually.

Thanks for that and agree with your opinion.

Vol.7601:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Why-manipulate-that

Another great example of information misinterpretation… im pretty sure nobody is successfully manipulating lvl 45 masterpiece heavy helmets or swords..

the issue is 1/100.000 items are useful or desired.

I start to think JS is agreat politician.

I think the TP is a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself.

The root of the issue is that there is no need for anything other than gold. You can buy >99% of anything you could ever want in this game. Literally the only thing you can’t buy with gold are vision crystals. This is the core problem.

We should be rewarding skill, challenges, and content, not gold farming. The TP is functioning just as it is supposed to. It helps sink gold, get people materials for crafting, etc. The problem is there is no reason to do anything else buy either farm gold or play the TP. The focus of the game should be achievement and skill, not gold farming, and that is the real issue people are upset with.

Leave the TP alone, fix the game.

Adventuring and a free market don’t go together. In a free market, using wealth to create more wealth on the trading post is always going to be more rewarding than generating wealth through other means.

If you don’t want to play TradingPostWars 2, you will always have a lower income than if you did.

It’s exactly like the real world. Capitalism is irresistable. Look at the last hold-outs against it, and how they are slowly (or not so slowly) caving.

Please don’t read this as an advocacy for communism in the real world. I’m not making a judgement on whether capitalism is good or bad. It’s obvious, though, that it is unstoppable.

Gibson.4036:

Adventuring and a free market don’t go together. In a free market, using wealth to create more wealth on the trading post is always going to be more rewarding than generating wealth through other means.

If you don’t want to play TradingPostWars 2, you will always have a lower income than if you did.

And the question then becomes: So what?

mtpelion.4562:

Restrictions, regulations, etc. outside of consumer protections NEVER have a positive impact on an economy. All they do is force routes around the rules that wind up hurting the general public even more than whatever perceived problem the rules were intended to address ever did.

Regulations frequently have a positive effect upon the economy. While there is always pressure to circumvent the rules, the choice to circumvent the rules is an economic decision; even costly restrictions will be followed as long as the cost of compliance is lower than the costs of circumventing.

Ensign.2189:

Regulations frequently have a positive effect upon the economy. While there is always pressure to circumvent the rules, the choice to circumvent the rules is an economic decision; even costly restrictions will be followed as long as the cost of compliance is lower than the costs of circumventing.

Positive for someone, perhaps. Not for the economy though.
Regulations are always designed to protect one entity’s interests against the interests of everyone else.

First lets all think about our own education here. I’m sure a lot of people here aren’t economist. We probably aren’t experts on the subject. Some us probably do have the educational background, but I’m sure not everyone here is qualified. John’s job is make sure the market stays in a good position. He has education in it. Before we just throw his comments into the developer defending his game basket we should really take what he says to hear.

John, I think the reason why so many people get irked by this isn’t because the economy is in the a bad position, it is just the horizontal progression. Right now this games main horizontal progression for players is gathering/crafting ascended gear and legendaries. Many players don’t have faith in the drop rates and feel that they will never get it via dropped, so they’re kind of being funneled into a system where they’re forced to either buy the materials to further progress their characters or craft them. So they decide hey, I’ve got all this gold on me from doing dungeons and playing the game; lets see if I can bypass all this gathering and buy them. They look at the amount needed (250 usually or more), look it up on the TP and see it is a very large price. Then they hear that players are “manipulating” them and “causing” the price to rise. They realize they can’t convience these players not to do this because they’re making great gold (I know a TP trader who says that if they were to do it every day like they did a few months after release, they can make 100+g a week). So they come here and demand anet does something.

If this games horizontal progression CDI produces some good content into the game that isn’t based around gathering/collecting and using gold on the TP; you will see A LOT less complains about TP traders.

mtpelion.4562:

Gibson.4036:

Adventuring and a free market don’t go together. In a free market, using wealth to create more wealth on the trading post is always going to be more rewarding than generating wealth through other means.

If you don’t want to play TradingPostWars 2, you will always have a lower income than if you did.

And the question then becomes: So what?

It’s something people need to realize so they can make a choice. Participate in trading, or accept that you will never make as much gold for time spent doing other parts of the game.

There’s an assumption that an MMORPG needs a functional economy to be a good MMORPG. MMORPGs in general would benefit from more conversation between players and designers about whether this assumption is true.

It boils down to what a fantasy MMORPG is ultimately about, and whether an open economy benefits that more than detracts. There are legitimate arguments to be made for both sides.

For example, one of the things that a free market economy brings to the game is a discussion about what are “luxury” items and which are “necessities”, and whether dividing items in a game about saving the world with swords and fireballs can sustain that kind of division and remain fun for the majority of the player base. Do people play fantasy MMORPGs to enter a world where they need to learn to be satisfied with being middle-class unless they are willing to spend time trading?

Clearly, some don’t, which is what generates threads like these.

No one from either side of the argumentshould be portraying this as a simple question and dismissing those from the other side.

To what extent should a fantasy game simulate real life and require “hard work” and “sound investment” for the best rewards?

No one thinks it should be a perfect simulator, because no one here would be willing to put in the kind of work and dedication to perform at the peak of human capability, or we wouldn’t be playing video games. We’d be training to be olympic athletes, concert pianists, and investing in real stock markets.

Conversely, no one wants to log on and have a legendary handed to them for doing so, or they would be playing a different game.

So how real should it be? Does the quest for a healthy, functioning economy make it too real, and burst the fantasy bubble for which we play games like this, or does it support the fantasy we want to roleplay?

VincentDW.9376

At times, it seems as if the rest of the game is designed to meet the needs of the trading post, rather than the trading post being designed to meet the needs of the game and all the many other activities that it encompasses. I think that is something worth discussing.

You made alot of good points in your post, so kudos for that. I snipped most of it to reply to your last statement, which i disagree with and would like to discuss.

It is always mentioned that the upper 10% of the wealth chain control a big bargain of the market/tp and that is not true. I think i am on the upper 10% (without botting) and i can assure you that is quite hard to control a market. You will never get rich in daily flipping daily commodities like silk or linen or orichalcum.
You just need a good degree of knowledge of the game to find markets that are profitable before anybody else does. So while its easy for regular players to blame “tp flippers” to increase the value of common items, most of the time its just the economy of tens of thousands regular players coming to a consent of value.

For me, the dissatisfaction has nothing to do with a belief that people are controlling markets or “false demand”.

It’s simply a matter of symmetry in game design. In most of the game the rewards feel tightly controlled. Chances with RNG are set remarkably low, and payout in coin from most activities feels like a trickle. On the TP side, however, we have a very liberal market free from obvious regulation. It feels like it is from a completely different game.

I’m not schooled in economics at all. Shortly before I took a break from playing GW2, when I was still making a stab at leveling crafting from 400 to 500, I read a few guides on TP flipping and tried my hand at it. I was amazed at how easily I could make gold with GW2Spidy open on one screen and GW2 on the other. I wasn’t going to easily get rich that way, but from just picking a few items to buy and relist, I found I could make more money in an hour of trading than an hour of champ farming, let alone actually adventuring through the world doing DEs in an immersive, non-farming way.

IMO, if people had a reasonable expectation of getting cool, “luxury” items from doing things other than trading, they wouldn’t begrudge the traders their incomes so much. It’s not so much that trading is so lucrative, but that the other parts of the game feel so stingy.