Guild Wars 2

I’ve made 1000’s of gold playing the TP so far.

This thread only inspires me to do so even more. I will flip some more precursors in your name OP.

Ken DeBoer.9268:

Please note that I don’t have access to prices right now

OP – You cannot tell me that if you came across an item on the TP, let’s just say an onion for argument sake, that you could buy for 10c but sell it for 2s, you wouldn’t buy all of them for 10c and post them back at 2s?

I would do it. That doesn’t make it any better.

Mystic.5934:

I’ll bring up this point: without the various forms of TP traders, inflation would run rampant in the game. TP tax is easily the largest gold sink in the game; orders of magnitude above the next-highest. And TP traders, in my estimation, make up more than half of all TP transactions.

To put some fake numbers to it:
let’s say 1 million gold entering the game per day through players completing dungeons and stuff.
to have no inflation you also need 1 million gold to leave the game per day. Players list things on the TP and 900 million gold leaves the game through TP tax. the other 100 million is taken care of with other gold sinks such as the gem exchange, icy runestones, cultural armor, etc.
If you remove all the TP trading professions, instead only 400 million gold leaves the game through TP fees (because more than half of that was stopped). So you’d have 500 million extra gold per day accumulating.
you thought precursor prices were high now? hehe. they’d all go up 100g a month and never stop, because people would have the money to pay those prices. By christmas, Dawn would be 1,600g.

Be as annoyed by them all you want; but just respect that each time they flip something, 30% of that gold leaves the game and delays inflation (15% on buy + 15% on sell).

so make new, more fullfilling gold sinks.

Everything we know runs on oil, is not a good reason that if i can make an engine powered on compost, it should not be done.

and i dont believe there is a tax on buying items, only selling them. unless you mean 15% when the first guy sells it, and 15% when the 1st middleman sells it.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Azrael.4960:

The fundamental mistake is comparing the Trading post to a stock market. The TP is more a commodities market. If you look at it that way it makes more sense. Flippers are more in line with speculators.

You got it and that is exactly my point. Speculators are bad for the economy because they serve no purpose. They get their money by limiting the quantity of items aviable.

Azrael.4960:

Remove flipping from the game and you’ll destroy the economy

Removing traidingpost flipping will not break the economy, it will just stop the cheesiest way to make gold. Believe it or not but there was a time before stock exchange and such and it worked. ANet already stopped champtrains because they were cheesy, no skill was required. To flip the tradingpost, there is actual “skill” required but the revenue is also way higher which leads to an inbalanced time-reward ratio, ergo being cheesy. The current GW2 economy looks like the real word economy: 10% of the players hold 90% of the currency. This is driving the prices up because everyone is trying to sell their stuff as expensive as possible. Removing traidingpost flipping will spread the gold more equally because the remaining ways of making gold have a more balanced time-reward ratio. There wont be massive inflation simply because all people will proceed buying stuff from the traidingpost, the fee would still be effective. More people would start to convert gold to gems or waste their gold otherwise. Also all people wouldn’t magically get more money, the most ones will still make less than 10g per day. My suggested change is only supposed to cut off the last 10% who are holding the majority of the gold.

“ANet already stopped champtrains because they were cheesy, no skill was required. "

- Your source?

“GW2 economy looks like the real word economy: 10% of the players hold 90% of the currency.”

- Barring theft, this will always be the case… and your real world citation shows what’s really getting on your nerves. See below.

“Also all people wouldn’t magically get more money, the most ones will still make less than 10g per day. My suggested change is only supposed to cut off the last 10% who are holding the majority of the gold.”

- I see – so total “equality” is the goal – and btw, players who’ve been here longer than player “n” will ALWAYS have more than player “n”… so we should “cut off” long term players from being able to have more?

Giving you benefit of the doubt – HOW EXACTLY do you stop trading (note the spelling) post flipping? Tell us how you implement that, exactly?

Vol.7601:

phys.7689:

William Bradley Knight.2609:

Vol.7601:

If only I knew how to photoshop or make .gifs ;(

But I have no time…cause IM FLIPPING!

Wait, I thought flipping is easy and takes almost no time? ;-)

I actually found myself appreciating flippers just last night. While leveling up a new warrior I found myself not doing as much damage as I would like because I was just wearing gear that I picked up while playing. It seemed like a good idea to buy some cheap zerky gear so I did some searching on the TP and found stuff that upped my damage for just a few silver. Just looking through the list of stuff, it seemed likely that some of it (e.g. http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/45925) was stuff that is flipped. Even buying it immediately I was glad it was available and a reasonable price. Let’s hear it for the flippers. :-)

to be honest flippers dont do anything good for players, other than give them some quick liquid cash.

That’s a pretty big ‘good’ or advantange. I like how you downplay it by saying it’s worth nothing but then add a little snippet to pretend like it’s not worth mentioning.

IIRC, they’re called “market makers” IRL.

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

You got it and that is exactly my point. Speculators are bad for the economy because they serve no purpose.

This is incorrect. Once you learn why this is incorrect we can continue the discussion, until then however you are starting with a false premise and the topic can not be discussed further.

So tell me which great use we all get from speculators. I’m really curious.

I try to explain.
First we have to determine what a speculator is. Many people have a different definition of them but for my explaination they are people that buy items that are not in demand at the moment (supply is higher than demand), hold on to them (either in their personal storage or as a high listing on the tp) in order to sell them at a higher price in the future, when the item gets into demand. By doing so, they offer several benefits to other players and the economy.

1. An item whose supply is higher than demand will fall in price until it reaches vendor value because nobody will buy it. If speculators put in buy orders higher than vendor value, they give sellers more gold for their goods.

2. If speculators wouldnt buy up those items, they will be sold to vendors. This destroys the item and generates gold, which lowers overall supply of the item and inflates gold. If they buy it, they keep the supply in game and sink gold through fees and taxes, which tackles inflation.

3. Now the item gets into demand out of a sudden, most propably due to a new patch.
Due to speculators, there is a higher supply on the tp which means the price will not spike as fast as when they wouldnt have listed their items after buying them when they werent in demand. Those speculators that held on to their items in personal storage, will start listing them now, competing with each other, which leads to a faster equilibrium.

1) an item whose price is close to vendor value is a failed item, it has virtually no value, as most vendor items are priced extremely low compared to what they are supposed to be worth too players.

2)these items should be destroyed, or never created in the first place, they are mucking up the market, and reducing the value of playtime

3) the market correcting patches, designed to give these glut items value and reduce their oversaturation only exist because people held on to useless items to begin with.

Essentially the entire cycle you mention is a self fullfilling prophecy created by the lack of control of supply by the market. The solutions cause mass waves, and problems, with generally little benefit to the game.

Do you think halloween items are better implemented now that it takes 10000 candy corn to make? Its honestly a circle of fail.

keeping items with no value in the market is actually really bad. They shouldnt have created a market with so little control on the supply side.

So what? People should be forced to destroy the items? Forced to give them to poor players?

There is control of supply on the market, it is called DR, and it is one of the most hated features of the game.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

You got it and that is exactly my point. Speculators are bad for the economy because they serve no purpose.

This is incorrect. Once you learn why this is incorrect we can continue the discussion, until then however you are starting with a false premise and the topic can not be discussed further.

So tell me which great use we all get from speculators. I’m really curious.

I try to explain.
First we have to determine what a speculator is. Many people have a different definition of them but for my explaination they are people that buy items that are not in demand at the moment (supply is higher than demand), hold on to them (either in their personal storage or as a high listing on the tp) in order to sell them at a higher price in the future, when the item gets into demand. By doing so, they offer several benefits to other players and the economy.

1. An item whose supply is higher than demand will fall in price until it reaches vendor value because nobody will buy it. If speculators put in buy orders higher than vendor value, they give sellers more gold for their goods.

2. If speculators wouldnt buy up those items, they will be sold to vendors. This destroys the item and generates gold, which lowers overall supply of the item and inflates gold. If they buy it, they keep the supply in game and sink gold through fees and taxes, which tackles inflation.

3. Now the item gets into demand out of a sudden, most propably due to a new patch.
Due to speculators, there is a higher supply on the tp which means the price will not spike as fast as when they wouldnt have listed their items after buying them when they werent in demand. Those speculators that held on to their items in personal storage, will start listing them now, competing with each other, which leads to a faster equilibrium.

1) an item whose price is close to vendor value is a failed item, it has virtually no value, as most vendor items are priced extremely low compared to what they are supposed to be worth too players.

2)these items should be destroyed, or never created in the first place, they are mucking up the market, and reducing the value of playtime

3) the market correcting patches, designed to give these glut items value and reduce their oversaturation only exist because people held on to useless items to begin with.

Essentially the entire cycle you mention is a self fullfilling prophecy created by the lack of control of supply by the market. The solutions cause mass waves, and problems, with generally little benefit to the game.

Do you think halloween items are better implemented now that it takes 10000 candy corn to make? Its honestly a circle of fail.

keeping items with no value in the market is actually really bad. They shouldnt have created a market with so little control on the supply side.

So what? People should be forced to destroy the items? Forced to give them to poor players?

There is control of supply on the market, it is called DR, and it is one of the most hated features of the game.

I think you didn’t understood what he meant with “destroying” an item. he didn’t mean rightclick > destroy, he ment if you sell an item to normal NPC vendors, you’re taking this item out of the game, out of the economy, aka. “destroying” it.

phys.7689:

pdavis.8031:

@Phys

You may be correct. I don’t flip, but I have read up on flipping, and was of the understandiing that in order to be the most profitable, you’d want to start out with a lot of gold. Either way my point still stands. People need to get over themselves, and stop trying to nerf legit ways to play the game that aren’t really doing any harm to anything just because they don’t like it. Just like the “Zerker” trend. I don’t play zerker, but I’m not crying for a nerf because I don’t like it.

hmm i dont think killing all flipping is the answer, but it does have an effect on the game, they hardwired trading into item creation. so flipping is an extremely large business, and it cannot be avoided. The other large effect is that it provides more gold with a different type of relationship than anything else in the game. This basically creates a class structure based on how you fit into the market. While class structures may be unavoidable, having them based primarily on your role in the market in an adventure game is probably the thing people have the biggest issue with.

The most effecient gameplay by far in terms of rewards (gold/items of high demand/utility) is tp playing if you are ok at it. Followed by farming. Since the game tends to be rebalanced on a macro level, a lot of normal people feel the effects most harshly. For a above average tp player, 40 gold for an ascended item is like a days work, for the average normal player, its like 1.5-2 weeks, for a below average player, it could take a month or more for one item.

So the problem is that others can build 1 of 2 classes of items

EDIT: that are arguably superior to anything that drops normally

faster than others who could choose to conduct the same activity?

Still not understanding why this is a problem unless the “below average player” you cite is PREVENTED from trading somehow… which they’re not.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

To underpin my point:

All ways to get gold in game, exept traidingpost flipping, are based on a set amount of gold.
Everything you do is furthermore limited by time. Your revenue will always look like this:
A set amount of gold from one activity * time spent + gear worn.
As a traidingpost flipper, this would look like this:
Your gold * time spent. This can get quickly out of hands.
Someone who is doing APAD (all dungeons all paths) runs will earn 50g every day.
Someone who is spending 100g on the traidingpost will get 110g back after one day.
The next day he will spend 110g, getting 140g back. This can be repeated endlessly.
There are many people who have 10k + gold and I assure you, they haven’t done APAD runs.

And that person started with this alleged thousands of gold from day one? They started in rags.

phys.7689:

pdavis.8031:

@Phys

You may be correct. I don’t flip, but I have read up on flipping, and was of the understandiing that in order to be the most profitable, you’d want to start out with a lot of gold. Either way my point still stands. People need to get over themselves, and stop trying to nerf legit ways to play the game that aren’t really doing any harm to anything just because they don’t like it. Just like the “Zerker” trend. I don’t play zerker, but I’m not crying for a nerf because I don’t like it.

hmm i dont think killing all flipping is the answer, but it does have an effect on the game, they hardwired trading into item creation. so flipping is an extremely large business, and it cannot be avoided. The other large effect is that it provides more gold with a different type of relationship than anything else in the game. This basically creates a class structure based on how you fit into the market. While class structures may be unavoidable, having them based primarily on your role in the market in an adventure game is probably the thing people have the biggest issue with.

The most effecient gameplay by far in terms of rewards (gold/items of high demand/utility) is tp playing if you are ok at it. Followed by farming. Since the game tends to be rebalanced on a macro level, a lot of normal people feel the effects most harshly. For a above average tp player, 40 gold for an ascended item is like a days work, for the average normal player, its like 1.5-2 weeks, for a below average player, it could take a month or more for one item.

So it’s more of an issue of TIME than anything. But as a casual player, I don’t find 40g for an ascended item daunting in the least. I know I’ll get there eventually, in the meantime, I just go and play the game and have fun. So those who feel that they must have BiS item RIGHT NOW are really only the ones effecting by TP flipping. But I still don’t see how someone else flipping the TP effects a normal player who doesn’t play the TP. So the TP has faster access to the brand new shiney than the non flipper. And this is a “major issue that needs to be addressed” How?

HHR LostProphet.4801:

To underpin my point:

All ways to get gold in game, exept traidingpost flipping, are based on a set amount of gold.
Everything you do is furthermore limited by time. Your revenue will always look like this:
A set amount of gold from one activity * time spent + gear worn.
As a traidingpost flipper, this would look like this:
Your gold * time spent. This can get quickly out of hands.
Someone who is doing APAD (all dungeons all paths) runs will earn 50g every day.
Someone who is spending 100g on the traidingpost will get 110g back after one day.
The next day he will spend 110g, getting 140g back. This can be repeated endlessly.
There are many people who have 10k + gold and I assure you, they haven’t done APAD runs.

Profits on the trading post are paid for by other players, they are not generated out of thin air like other gold rewards from other gameplay.
That points to the fact that most players value quick cash (sell to bu order) and instant gratification (buy lowest listing) more than they are bothered by someone else making a profit of their transactions.

Wanze.8410:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

To underpin my point:

All ways to get gold in game, exept traidingpost flipping, are based on a set amount of gold.
Everything you do is furthermore limited by time. Your revenue will always look like this:
A set amount of gold from one activity * time spent + gear worn.
As a traidingpost flipper, this would look like this:
Your gold * time spent. This can get quickly out of hands.
Someone who is doing APAD (all dungeons all paths) runs will earn 50g every day.
Someone who is spending 100g on the traidingpost will get 110g back after one day.
The next day he will spend 110g, getting 140g back. This can be repeated endlessly.
There are many people who have 10k + gold and I assure you, they haven’t done APAD runs.

Profits on the trading post are paid for by other players, they are not generated out of thin air like other gold rewards from other gameplay.
That points to the fact that most players value quick cash (sell to bu order) and instant gratification (buy lowest listing) more than they are bothered by someone else making a profit of their transactions.

That is one of the reasons why speculators are bad: they make gold by draining other players gold.

Just stop Wanze. It’s a battle you cannot win >_>

Let us hang out along the Royal Terrace conducting our transactions while the peasants mingle and protest outside!

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Ken DeBoer.9268:

Please note that I don’t have access to prices right now

OP – You cannot tell me that if you came across an item on the TP, let’s just say an onion for argument sake, that you could buy for 10c but sell it for 2s, you wouldn’t buy all of them for 10c and post them back at 2s?

I would do it. That doesn’t make it any better.

Frakkin’ hypocritical flipper! I rescind my conversion – back to being capitalist!

Vol.7601:

Just stop Wanze. It’s a battle you cannot win >_>

Let us hang out along the Royal Terrace conducting our transactions while the peasants mingle and protest outside!

Yep. The best way to deal with crazy is to let them get tired with arguing amongst themselves. Arguing against them fuel and gives the illusion they are not making very idiotic statements.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Wanze.8410:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

To underpin my point:

All ways to get gold in game, exept traidingpost flipping, are based on a set amount of gold.
Everything you do is furthermore limited by time. Your revenue will always look like this:
A set amount of gold from one activity * time spent + gear worn.
As a traidingpost flipper, this would look like this:
Your gold * time spent. This can get quickly out of hands.
Someone who is doing APAD (all dungeons all paths) runs will earn 50g every day.
Someone who is spending 100g on the traidingpost will get 110g back after one day.
The next day he will spend 110g, getting 140g back. This can be repeated endlessly.
There are many people who have 10k + gold and I assure you, they haven’t done APAD runs.

Profits on the trading post are paid for by other players, they are not generated out of thin air like other gold rewards from other gameplay.
That points to the fact that most players value quick cash (sell to bu order) and instant gratification (buy lowest listing) more than they are bothered by someone else making a profit of their transactions.

That is one of the reasons why speculators are bad: they make gold by draining other players gold.

ok, so if there was some magical way to stop flipping, would you say the same for the TP – because THAT’s what’s draining player… awww screw it, lost cause.

KarateKid.5648:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Wanze.8410:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

To underpin my point:

All ways to get gold in game, exept traidingpost flipping, are based on a set amount of gold.
Everything you do is furthermore limited by time. Your revenue will always look like this:
A set amount of gold from one activity * time spent + gear worn.
As a traidingpost flipper, this would look like this:
Your gold * time spent. This can get quickly out of hands.
Someone who is doing APAD (all dungeons all paths) runs will earn 50g every day.
Someone who is spending 100g on the traidingpost will get 110g back after one day.
The next day he will spend 110g, getting 140g back. This can be repeated endlessly.
There are many people who have 10k + gold and I assure you, they haven’t done APAD runs.

Profits on the trading post are paid for by other players, they are not generated out of thin air like other gold rewards from other gameplay.
That points to the fact that most players value quick cash (sell to bu order) and instant gratification (buy lowest listing) more than they are bothered by someone else making a profit of their transactions.

That is one of the reasons why speculators are bad: they make gold by draining other players gold.

ok, so if there was some magical way to stop flipping, would you say the same for the TP – because THAT’s what’s draining player… awww screw it, lost cause.

Yeah I know… people tend to get heated when they run out of arguments.

Vol.7601:

Just stop Wanze. It’s a battle you cannot win >_>

Let us hang out along the Royal Terrace conducting our transactions while the peasants mingle and protest outside!

I am just waiting on the topic about social undercutting being necroed by its op.

Vol.7601:

Just stop Wanze. It’s a battle you cannot win >_>

Let us hang out along the Royal Terrace conducting our transactions while the peasants mingle and protest outside!

Pretty much why I’m not stepping in as I now know better as a result of the BS I had to deal with in another thread. You can’t really have a rational, informed discussion if one side feels they do not need to research basic economic/financial principles (or the subject matter the discussion is about) but instead rely on personal observations, how the “feel” the market is and how it “should” be, and/or use pseudo intellectual arguments.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

You got it and that is exactly my point. Speculators are bad for the economy because they serve no purpose.

This is incorrect. Once you learn why this is incorrect we can continue the discussion, until then however you are starting with a false premise and the topic can not be discussed further.

So tell me which great use we all get from speculators. I’m really curious.

I try to explain.
First we have to determine what a speculator is. Many people have a different definition of them but for my explaination they are people that buy items that are not in demand at the moment (supply is higher than demand), hold on to them (either in their personal storage or as a high listing on the tp) in order to sell them at a higher price in the future, when the item gets into demand. By doing so, they offer several benefits to other players and the economy.

1. An item whose supply is higher than demand will fall in price until it reaches vendor value because nobody will buy it. If speculators put in buy orders higher than vendor value, they give sellers more gold for their goods.

2. If speculators wouldnt buy up those items, they will be sold to vendors. This destroys the item and generates gold, which lowers overall supply of the item and inflates gold. If they buy it, they keep the supply in game and sink gold through fees and taxes, which tackles inflation.

3. Now the item gets into demand out of a sudden, most propably due to a new patch.
Due to speculators, there is a higher supply on the tp which means the price will not spike as fast as when they wouldnt have listed their items after buying them when they werent in demand. Those speculators that held on to their items in personal storage, will start listing them now, competing with each other, which leads to a faster equilibrium.

1) an item whose price is close to vendor value is a failed item, it has virtually no value, as most vendor items are priced extremely low compared to what they are supposed to be worth too players.

2)these items should be destroyed, or never created in the first place, they are mucking up the market, and reducing the value of playtime

3) the market correcting patches, designed to give these glut items value and reduce their oversaturation only exist because people held on to useless items to begin with.

Essentially the entire cycle you mention is a self fullfilling prophecy created by the lack of control of supply by the market. The solutions cause mass waves, and problems, with generally little benefit to the game.

Do you think halloween items are better implemented now that it takes 10000 candy corn to make? Its honestly a circle of fail.

keeping items with no value in the market is actually really bad. They shouldnt have created a market with so little control on the supply side.

So what? People should be forced to destroy the items? Forced to give them to poor players?

There is control of supply on the market, it is called DR, and it is one of the most hated features of the game.

control of supply does not mean limiting it, it means the players cant control supply adequately themselves. IRL an item with no value is not produced, that is not the case in GW2, the item is continuously produced although it has no value. This is what i mean by a huge flaw, players dont have enough control over supply, way too many items are generated as an accident along some other purpose, until they have no value.

And yes people should destroy items with no value, 1 copper above npc price means the item is failing as an item. They price items value at like 1/10th or lower to what their expected value is, when an item sells for 1 copper above minimal price, and only value is to be a hedged bet for a designer game changer, that item has failed, it is dirt, and the developer shouldnt be trying to turn dirt into gold, and rewarding those who keep massive stockpiles of dirt on the TP.

i never said give your items away for cheap, im saying you should be able to be like, this item is a waste of time to get, im going to focus my item creation ability creating an item i value. This is how supply and demand are supposed to work to create balance. A person who hunts leather because they want to sell it is a peer to a flipper if the flipper isnt giving a worthwhile price to the effort, he will stop hunting, a person who has leather appear magically whenever he tries to study his favorite subject, needs the flipper to get rid of the item asap.

Vol.7601:

Just stop Wanze. It’s a battle you cannot win >_>

Let us hang out along the Royal Terrace conducting our transactions while the peasants mingle and protest outside!

lol irl the balance for this thing is peasant revolt, perhaps they need a revolt system so part of the TP players goal is to get as much as they can without having the peasants revolt, that would add some more depth to the TP game.

Wanze.8410:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Bigger Than Dave.7426:

I haven’t done a dungeon and I don’t flip. Once you have a dungeon path down pat that is, to my understanding, easily repeatable. Flipping is always changing. Dungeon v ai, Flipping v actual people. They both require skill albeit very different ones.

If it’s that easy why are not more people selling paths? Or why do people buy dungeonpaths in the frist place?

If TP flipping is so easy to make 1000g a day, why arent more people doing it?

Maybe, just maybe players bought an action/adventure mmorpg to…….idk….play action/adventure content? If this were a market simulator, then yeah “why aren’t more players doing it”.

Ayrilana.1396:

Vol.7601:

Just stop Wanze. It’s a battle you cannot win >_>

Let us hang out along the Royal Terrace conducting our transactions while the peasants mingle and protest outside!

Pretty much why I’m not stepping in as I now know better as a result of the BS I had to deal with in another thread. You can’t really have a rational, informed discussion if one side feels they do not need to research basic economic/financial principles (or the subject matter the discussion is about) but instead rely on personal observations, how the “feel” the market is and how it “should” be, and/or use pseudo intellectual arguments.

So what do you think is the unassailable reason why traidingpost flippers should exsist? Please don’t say they buffer price fluctuations.

phys.7689:

Vol.7601:

Just stop Wanze. It’s a battle you cannot win >_>

Let us hang out along the Royal Terrace conducting our transactions while the peasants mingle and protest outside!

lol irl the balance for this thing is peasant revolt, perhaps they need a revolt system so part of the TP players goal is to get as much as they can without having the peasants revolt, that would add some more depth to the TP game.

OK, now THAT is a hilarious and intriguing idea (no really, not being snarky).

Sorta related, I had the thought one day it’d be fun to be able to plan and carry out a TP robbery.

Even if it were instanced content and didn’t truly affect the TP, it’d at least give some of these wannabe Robin Hoods what they want.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Ayrilana.1396:

Vol.7601:

Just stop Wanze. It’s a battle you cannot win >_>

Let us hang out along the Royal Terrace conducting our transactions while the peasants mingle and protest outside!

Pretty much why I’m not stepping in as I now know better as a result of the BS I had to deal with in another thread. You can’t really have a rational, informed discussion if one side feels they do not need to research basic economic/financial principles (or the subject matter the discussion is about) but instead rely on personal observations, how the “feel” the market is and how it “should” be, and/or use pseudo intellectual arguments.

…traidingpost…

you keep using that word… I do not think it’s spelled like you think it’s spelled.

KarateKid.5648:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Ayrilana.1396:

Vol.7601:

Just stop Wanze. It’s a battle you cannot win >_>

Let us hang out along the Royal Terrace conducting our transactions while the peasants mingle and protest outside!

Pretty much why I’m not stepping in as I now know better as a result of the BS I had to deal with in another thread. You can’t really have a rational, informed discussion if one side feels they do not need to research basic economic/financial principles (or the subject matter the discussion is about) but instead rely on personal observations, how the “feel” the market is and how it “should” be, and/or use pseudo intellectual arguments.

…traidingpost…

you keep using that word… I do not think it’s spelled like you think it’s spelled.

I don’t care, especially not if it comes from your end.

anabasis.7346:

The anti-tp-conspiracy theorists strike again with more of their outrageously and uneducated stupid claims. Asking anet to nerf the tp just makes them feel better with themselves because they are jealous and lack any skills to play the tp. It happens the same in real life too. They are pretty much the counterpart of the anti zerker crowd in the dungeon subforum.

Just ignore them since they will never stop complaining that flipping is bad, and claiming that the economy is controlled by a minority of tp barons who manipulate every single market to create artificial inflation just to get richer and ruin everyone else’s experienced with the game.

It’s actually the Mursaat who are the TP Barons. Keil is Mursaat and actually in control of everything. The “high roller” players are not actual players, but NPCs that LOOK like players.

Flipping does not increase any price, in fact, without flippers sell orders could be higher, if you don’t understand this, then you don’t understand how it works, plus with the gold sink it creates its actually helping reduce inflation, which is good for everyone.

Sorry for my spelling

Jansen.4753:

Flipping does not increase any price, in fact, without flippers sell orders could be higher, if you don’t understand this, then you don’t understand how it works, plus with the gold sink it creates its actually helping reduce inflation, which is good for everyone.

Sorry for my spelling

yeah… no. How, in gods name, should people who buying cheap and selling expensive help keeping the prices down? It makes no sense.

John Smith.4610:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Jansen.4753:

Flipping does not increase any price, in fact, without flippers sell orders could be higher, if you don’t understand this, then you don’t understand how it works, plus with the gold sink it creates its actually helping reduce inflation, which is good for everyone.

Sorry for my spelling

yeah… no. How, in gods name, should people who buying cheap and selling expensive help keeping the prices down? It makes no sense.

When a player adds velocity or liquidity to a market, the result is often lower prices and often prices closer to equilibrium.
Given recent feedback let me try also this in other terms (I’ve tried this before and failed so bare with me).

Supply and Demand curves can also be called Willingness to Pay and Willingness to Sell curves. Essentially they are the shape of what people are willing to pay or how much people are willing to sell for. If everyone is will to pay $5 then the “demand” curve would be a flat horizontal line at $5.
In real markets the curves end up being curves because people have different preferences or costs. I might be willing to pay $100 for a new video game and you may be willing to pay $50 and yet another person $30. When you extrapolate this out you get a smooth curve of what people are willing to pay (it works the same way for the willingness to sell).

Balance (or equilibrium) occurs when those two lines meet, and people are willing to pay the same amount people are willing to sell. This price is decided by the market as a whole. Given the “freeness” of our market in GW2 people can sell for more or less than this price. In a textbook this would never happen because people always want to be in that balanced state. In real life though, especially in video games, people have different preferences outside of that market equation. Time is a major factor of this equation in real life. Imagine you could instantly sell items to a vendor for 1 gold or you could place them on the TP for 1gold 5 silver; some amount of player would be willing to sell straight the the vendor and save the time because their preference for time or convenience makes that a good trade off for them and that’s awesome, people should be allowed to make that trade off if they want. Now let’s say people instead just place everything on the TP for super cheap instead of vendoring because it’s easier. The prices these items are placed at are often placed below that equilibrium price which leaves room for someone to purchase those items and sell them at equilibrium price earning some profit per item. The person who purchases and resells values that trades and so does the individual selling easily, in this case both parties match what they want. Now the market has items placed at the equilibrium price for the standard buyers/sellers that sell at that equilibrium. Those sellers cannot change that equilibrium price and placing items above that price will result in the items not selling. They cannot raise the price, the market has decided the price and other people have decided their willingness to sell.

The first question to ask here is, “Isn’t the profit of the reseller directly equivalent to how much people are willing to trade off money for time or other preferences?”
The answer is yes, and more than that, the potential profit is split between all the different individuals attempting to buy and resell. Since the profit is finite and will become distributed between players, why wouldn’t people begin doing that until everyone only made little to no money? If everyone was the same person they would, but there must be some barrier to entry to that activity, there must be something that stops people from jumping in and distributing some of that profit to themselves. The most common and the most correct (but not complete) is that it takes time and skill, if it did not there would be almost no profit in the activity because the potential would be split between too many different individuals.

(Hello again econ and business people, I’m aware that this is very simple, but I’m attempting to introduce people to the ideas and attempting to explain complex concepts right away turns out poorly)

its not something that people want to do. I do a lot of random works, because i got problems, anyhow, someone wanted to pay me and a contractor buddy to clean out some sewage that overflowed due to blockage. my friend took the job, we ended up paying a sizable sum to a random worker, because essentially, a lot of people dont actually like cleaning up human feces, us included.

Its not that flipping is so hard, its just not something a lot of people want to do. Now normally this makes sense people get paid more for the jobs no one wants to do, buuuut its an action adventure game though…

a lot of people want to get cool stuff through adventure, not accounting/brokering/etc.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

If someone who sells legit Arah paths and gets 100 gold per day, I have no problem with that because it requires skill and knowledge to solo a path. Traidingpost flipping requires neither of those. You don’t have to swing your sword once, you don’t have to know one single enemy in this game. That is simply stupid and should not be possible, especially not as most rewarding method of getting gold.

Spoken like someone who has never tried flipping. The TP is a nice, steady income if you do it right. If you don’t have “skill and knowledge” you won’t make a single silver. It actually takes a bit of knowledge about the game in order to make wise investments, otherwise you might get snookered by someone claiming that candy corns are “the bomb!”

You also keep repeating that flipping is the “most rewarding method of getting gold.” You’ve said it several times, but never backed it up with any facts. I know this is anecdotal, but the people I know who flip make more money doing dungeons, crafting and playing the mystic toilet than they do on the TP.

Lukyromero.6780:

Without TP flipping, a lot of people would leave the game, even more I should add, since most of us TP flippers beat the game to the max which includes getting a legendary. Without TP flipping it would be like 3 times harder to get a legendary too. May I also add that people get TIRED of grinding dungeons all day, and EoTM no matter how rewarding it is, also gets tiring at one point. So if you want to remove TP flipping, you’re asking for more than half the players to leave.

Agreed. I never tried flipping until after I had my legendary and was 95% of the way to my second. I have found it provides some revenue, but not “OMG!” money.

Please try to understand Smith’s explanation.

If you still don’t think that flipping is beneficial you are clearly incapable or unwilling to understand the economics and should just stop complaining here.

Ryan.9387:

Please try to understand Smith’s explanation.

If you still don’t think that flipping is beneficial you are clearly incapable or unwilling to understand the economics and should just stop complaining here.

Yeah, like that’s going to happen. Feel free to keep complaining, but keep two things in mind:

1: You have know idea what you’re talking about.

2: JS does know what he’s talking about, and he’s in charge of the TP.

So, good luck with that.

Ryan.9387:

Please try to understand Smith’s explanation.

If you still don’t think that flipping is beneficial you are clearly incapable or unwilling to understand the economics and should just stop complaining here.

an MMORPG forum where uninformed players are not complaining about things they do not understand, good luck with that buddy.

/bow Thank You John.

Ryan.9387:

Please try to understand Smith’s explanation.

If you still don’t think that flipping is beneficial you are clearly incapable or unwilling to understand the economics and should just stop complaining here.

This isn’t about whether or not it is beneficial to the efficiency of the overall game’s economy.

This is about whether or not playing the trading post should be the most profitable means of playing an action-adventure mmorpg video game.

I don’t disagree with John’s statements at all, but whenever I read his posts in response to threads like this, I feel like he always misses the point or the big picture. People are not upset about how well the economy is working. People are upset about Wallstreet Simulator being the most rewarding way to play the game.

That being said, I don’t know that this is John’s responsibility to fix, rather than a game developer/designer.

I get that flipping can increase velocity and liquidity, but I wonder how flipping influences the consolidation of wealth and what impact that consolidation has on the game.

Of course, John is in a better position to know this that I am, but I whenever I get these explanations I always feel like there are some moving pieces missing.

John said that velocity and liquidity often lowers prices, in an economics 101 kind of way (thanks for that BTW), but he has also said that virtual economies behave differently than non-virtual ones, for example, increasing the precursor drop rate can, counter intuitively, cause an increase in the price. Are we confident that flippers actually lower prices in a virtual economy?

Another game where AH/TP makes business players rich.

Because supply vs demand graphs are fantasy immersion.

phys.7689:

And although flippers do keep inflation down somewhat, they also increase the wealth disparity, after all what a flipper essentially does, is either skim money off the item creator, or the item user, or both. they basically make everyone else poorer to make themselves richer.

This would only be true if flippers had some way of barring others from having the same access to the market that they do. Flippers don’t make anyone else poorer, as they don’t force anyone to sell to them or buy from them. If a flipper is able to buy at 10 silver then so can you. Just put in a buy order. You might have to wait a day or so, but that is your choice. A flipper can’t drive the buy price up too high or they won’t be able to find someone to sell it to at a profit. Flippers benefit from everyone having enough money to buy from them.

TooBz.3065:

I get that flipping can increase velocity and liquidity, but I wonder how flipping influences the consolidation of wealth and what impact that consolidation has on the game.

Of course, John is in a better position to know this that I am, but I whenever I get these explanations I always feel like there are some moving pieces missing.

John said that velocity and liquidity often lowers prices, in an economics 101 kind of way (thanks for that BTW), but he has also said that virtual economies behave differently than non-virtual ones, for example, increasing the precursor drop rate can, counter intuitively, cause an increase in the price. Are we confident that flippers actually lower prices in a virtual economy?

actually he explained how they increased liquidity, and velocity, didnt really explain how they lower prices.
I can see them smoothing out the price curve, with less everything getting cheap at once or getting expensive at once, but that isnt really lowering prices overall, thats just making a smoother curve.

shogei.8015:

phys.7689:

And although flippers do keep inflation down somewhat, they also increase the wealth disparity, after all what a flipper essentially does, is either skim money off the item creator, or the item user, or both. they basically make everyone else poorer to make themselves richer.

This would only be true if flippers had some way of barring others from having the same access to the market that they do. Flippers don’t make anyone else poorer, as they don’t force anyone to sell to them or buy from them. If a flipper is able to buy at 10 silver then so can you. Just put in a buy order. You might have to wait a day or so, but that is your choice. A flipper can’t drive the buy price up too high or they won’t be able to find someone to sell it to at a profit. Flippers benefit from everyone having enough money to buy from them.

we arent talking about flippers holding guns to peoples heads we are talking about a flipper as an piece that will exhibit certain behavior.
This means overall, based on the definition of flipping, they will pay sellers less money or sell to buyers higher, or both. That is how they make money, it is their raison d’etre. They can only make money if they can do that. Therefor, the success of the flipper means some other users have gotten less than they could.
JS will say that in exchange for that money loss, they got time.

I think the TP overall is set up so that people will get pimped, tp players are competing with people who are not aware that they are competing. Some people may be willingly sacrificing time, but many people dont know any better and assume that the value people offer for an item represents its value.

See the whole thing is, a lot of players arent actually playing the market, but they are still in it, because they dont really have a choice. Dont believe me? why do you think anet had to add a minimum limits to npc price? Because people in this market are not rival businessmen, they are sheep to the slaughter. The only balance for them is other wolves, but all the wolves are competing to do is eat the sheep.

phys.7689:

shogei.8015:

phys.7689:

And although flippers do keep inflation down somewhat, they also increase the wealth disparity, after all what a flipper essentially does, is either skim money off the item creator, or the item user, or both. they basically make everyone else poorer to make themselves richer.

This would only be true if flippers had some way of barring others from having the same access to the market that they do. Flippers don’t make anyone else poorer, as they don’t force anyone to sell to them or buy from them. If a flipper is able to buy at 10 silver then so can you. Just put in a buy order. You might have to wait a day or so, but that is your choice. A flipper can’t drive the buy price up too high or they won’t be able to find someone to sell it to at a profit. Flippers benefit from everyone having enough money to buy from them.

we arent talking about flippers holding guns to peoples heads we are talking about a flipper as an piece that will exhibit certain behavior.
This means overall, based on the definition of flipping, they will pay sellers less money or sell to buyers higher, or both. That is how they make money, it is their raison d’etre. They can only make money if they can do that. Therefor, the success of the flipper means some other users have gotten less than they could.
JS will say that in exchange for that money loss, they got time.

I think the TP overall is set up so that people will get pimped, tp players are competing with people who are not aware that they are competing. Some people may be willingly sacrificing time, but many people dont know any better and assume that the value people offer for an item represents its value.

See the whole thing is, a lot of players arent actually playing the market, but they are still in it, because they dont really have a choice. Dont believe me? why do you think anet had to add a minimum limits to npc price? Because people in this market are not rival businessmen, they are sheep to the slaughter. The only balance for them is other wolves, but all the wolves are competing to do is eat the sheep.

Do you understand that you don’t need to buy or sell at the posted prices? What makes you think that others aren’t that wise? A new player might be forgiven for not understanding how it works for the first few weeks in game, but it doesn’t take long to figure out as the TP has a pretty simple mechanic. Much simpler than, say, Liadri.

I do modest TP flipping, maybe 10-20 gold per week, mainly limited by my willingness to invest the time to do it intelligently. It never occurred to me to rely on people’s stupidity, only on their impatience. If someone wants money RIGHT NOW, they will sell at the “sell now” price. If they want the maximum value for their goods, they will put in a sell order. It’s not that hard to figure out, or to do. And it’s certainly not predatory. (There might be some predators out there, but it’s mostly just people trading time for money and vice versa)

shogei.8015:

phys.7689:

shogei.8015:

phys.7689:

And although flippers do keep inflation down somewhat, they also increase the wealth disparity, after all what a flipper essentially does, is either skim money off the item creator, or the item user, or both. they basically make everyone else poorer to make themselves richer.

This would only be true if flippers had some way of barring others from having the same access to the market that they do. Flippers don’t make anyone else poorer, as they don’t force anyone to sell to them or buy from them. If a flipper is able to buy at 10 silver then so can you. Just put in a buy order. You might have to wait a day or so, but that is your choice. A flipper can’t drive the buy price up too high or they won’t be able to find someone to sell it to at a profit. Flippers benefit from everyone having enough money to buy from them.

we arent talking about flippers holding guns to peoples heads we are talking about a flipper as an piece that will exhibit certain behavior.
This means overall, based on the definition of flipping, they will pay sellers less money or sell to buyers higher, or both. That is how they make money, it is their raison d’etre. They can only make money if they can do that. Therefor, the success of the flipper means some other users have gotten less than they could.
JS will say that in exchange for that money loss, they got time.

I think the TP overall is set up so that people will get pimped, tp players are competing with people who are not aware that they are competing. Some people may be willingly sacrificing time, but many people dont know any better and assume that the value people offer for an item represents its value.

See the whole thing is, a lot of players arent actually playing the market, but they are still in it, because they dont really have a choice. Dont believe me? why do you think anet had to add a minimum limits to npc price? Because people in this market are not rival businessmen, they are sheep to the slaughter. The only balance for them is other wolves, but all the wolves are competing to do is eat the sheep.

Do you understand that you don’t need to buy or sell at the posted prices? What makes you think that others aren’t that wise? A new player might be forgiven for not understanding how it works for the first few weeks in game, but it doesn’t take long to figure out as the TP has a pretty simple mechanic. Much simpler than, say, Liadri.

I do modest TP flipping, maybe 10-20 gold per week, mainly limited by my willingness to invest the time to do it intelligently. It never occurred to me to rely on people’s stupidity, only on their impatience. If someone wants money RIGHT NOW, they will sell at the “sell now” price. If they want the maximum value for their goods, they will put in a sell order. It’s not that hard to figure out, or to do. And it’s certainly not predatory. (There might be some predators out there, but it’s mostly just people trading time for money and vice versa)

people assume that it is going to be a long time, or a big wait, truth is, if you put at 1 copper lower you will usually sell in moments, people also have no idea how much prices fluctuate from hour to hour or day to day.

Its not some one saying, hmm, this at this price probably wont sell for 2 hours, or a day, they simply have no knowledge and assume an item would not be priced so low if it had other value.

In fact, many items you sell, it doesnt even show you the current selling prices you have to go out of your way to see what the item is selling for right now if it isnt the lowest item. Do most people know that if someone oversells to a buyer, it will list the item at that buying price? making it sometimes seem that the buy order and and sell order are extremely close, when they may be miles apart? the only way to see past lowest seller is to put in a search on the item.

And why do i assume they arent pros? because until they patched it, materials were consistently selling for under vendor value, sometimes substantially so. Enough people were consistently selling these items sub vendor, that for some items, even the sell orders were below npc price.
so yes, people are getting pimped.

people assume everyone playing this game is paying attention and making educated descisions, that is not really the case at all.

Lunaire.5827:

This isn’t about whether or not it is beneficial to the efficiency of the overall game’s economy.

This is about whether or not playing the trading post should be the most profitable means of playing an action-adventure mmorpg video game.

This is a side effect of having player to player trading. In most games, the market is limited to a single server, and in some games it’s limited to private transactions between two players (GW Spamadon).

Players who don’t know what something is worth, or who want to buy/sell it right now give more money than they need to players who have more patience or knowledge.

The only way to stop this is to remove the ability of players to send/trade/sell each other items. Then that Dusk your elementalist can’t use is worth 3.5 silver to a vendor instead of 900 gold to another player. That would be so much better!

tolunart.2095:

Lunaire.5827:

This isn’t about whether or not it is beneficial to the efficiency of the overall game’s economy.

This is about whether or not playing the trading post should be the most profitable means of playing an action-adventure mmorpg video game.

This is a side effect of having player to player trading. In most games, the market is limited to a single server, and in some games it’s limited to private transactions between two players (GW Spamadon).

Players who don’t know what something is worth, or who want to buy/sell it right now give more money than they need to players who have more patience or knowledge.

The only way to stop this is to remove the ability of players to send/trade/sell each other items. Then that Dusk your elementalist can’t use is worth 3.5 silver to a vendor instead of 900 gold to another player. That would be so much better!

They could also create some regulation on playing the tp, makes items more reliably acquirable via playing content, and/or alter item usefulness/desire. Basically they hold all the cards and have the means to do almost anything.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Taygus.4571:

(btw, I don’t have lots of gold, ….. I don’t really do dungeons much, because..well, I don’t like doing them daily, it;s boring.
TP, is my way to earn gold, instead of dungeons..why take that from players?)

That’s a whole other issue. It’s ANet’s lack of establishing other methods of income in the game. That however doesn’t justify the obsolete amount of gold you can acquire from the traidingpost without even doing one step out of the traidinpost office.

There is no lack of methods to gain income in this game … ><