Traidingpost Flipping should brought in line
Actually, i dare you to find a Dev that posts more than him. Its only Anet employees that work in community relations (Gaile, Grouch, Danicia) that might have a higher post count.
Just because you asked.
Ashley Segovia
Mark Katzbach
Jeffrey Vaughn
Devon Carver
Allie Murdock
Chris Whiteside
Jason King
and Robert Hrouda b4 he left…to name a few
Serenity now~Insanity later
While you might be right, this wasn’t the point Wanze was making.
JS"s posts have content. Stuff he’s explaining how it works.
Most others “Hi, leave comments, be friendly, read these rules” …
JS by FAR has the most posts that contain DISCUSSION is what I believe Wanze is saying.
[…]
(Note: flippers = people who flip the traiding post)
I do interpet your post this way, correct me if I’m wrong: You say that flippers in GW2 do increase the prices to a certain extent that many people aren’t willing to buy the stuff on the traiding post because it’s too expensive for them. That however makes sure that there are enough supplies left for those who are willing to buy the items.
Traiding post flippers will place “cheap” orders and sell the items for an appropriate price.
Those “cheap” orders get served because the player selling his items to flippers is valualing the fast gold more than more gold. This keeps the prices down because the flippers can sell their items for an appropriate price, rather than for a higher price.
I can’t make up my mind about the velocity of the market. In my mind, velocity is no factor but a result of factors. One factor is the quantity of items aviable and the other is the quantity of items needed. If there are more items needed then offered, the prices will go up, if there are more items offered than needed the prices will go down. If those two facors converge, the market will speed up, which can lead to price-peaks or -holes, if the market stutters. Flippers keep the prices stable by keeping both curves away from each other, slowing the market, stabilizing it.
If flippers were gone, both curves would convert slowly until they meet, interrupted when one of the curves (drastically) changes. Following this argumentation, flippers do make the market more stable, but they do not make items cheaper, neihter on the short-run, nor on the long-run.
(edited by HHR LostProphet.4801)
In a game where practically anything you do floods your inventory with items, the trading post makes it easier to sells the items you don’t want and use the money to buy the items you do want. It generally works well and is convenient.
I’m not a fan of a game where players can gather great wealth for buying low and selling high. I would much rather have the players acquire that wealth from tackling and overcoming exceptionally challenging problems.
Like John said, what is your time really worth? Is buying low and selling high all day a valuable use of your time? In the end, when the servers shutdown, all the paper money goes back into the box.
I’ve given an example, a theoretical one but I’ll repeat myself:
Every income in this game, exept traiding post flipping, is based on a set amount of gold. Every income is furthermore gated by time.
So for every income except traiding post flipping, this formula would apply:
Set amount of gold * time spent.
For the traiding post flippinf however, this formula applies:
Variable amount of gold * time spent.
So the problem is that, based on the starting gold you use, you can make insane an amount gold just by flipping.
The main fact that escapes you at the moment is that people who play the TP aren’t guaranteed to make money. I’m a clear example of someone who lost his shirt with bad investments in the past. I’ve been forthcoming about my losses, and have no shame in telling people that I suck at the TP. So let me correct your assumptions:
“Every income in this game, except for TP, is guaranteed that you can’t lose money.”
So your problem here is not that people can make Gold using the TP, but rather that you can’t make as much Gold as the best traders.
This hold true for the real world, yes. But it does only partially apply to guildwars.
First of all, you can calculate your expenses and your income, so you wont magically lose money because you thought things would be cheaper or sell more expensive.
Furthermore, the only risk you take is that your items don’t get sold when you want them to. Ofcourse, if you’re unlucky the value of one item will drop that hard that you’ll never sell the items you’ve listed but that does occur rather rarely. Even if your item does not sell, you’ll only lose 5% of the money if you cancel the listing.
Also, the fee doesn’t hit you. You have to list your items that high that you make profit, yes, but I think everyone is capable of adding 15% to his buy offer. So it’s at the end not you who pays the 15% but the player who buys your stuff.
So all in all I have no problem with the little guy making some more income. But I do have a problem with people making the most gold in this game by purely flipping the traiding post. And keep in mind what a suggestions is: A suggestion, ergo not final. If you have a better idea of how to stop the richest of the rich, then say it.
Stop them from what and why? They aren’t a problem.
Stop them from what and why? They aren’t a problem.
Stop them from making the most gold with mechanics that aren’t core-mechanics of GW2. GW2 isn’t build around the traiding post, the traiding post has nothing to do with the design of a MMO and noone buys GW2 to play the traiding post.
Stop them because they breathe away my air. I am ok with someone making more gold than I do by mastering the mechanics of the game. As stated above, the traiding post is no such mechanic. Ergo, I have a problem with them making more money than anyone else.
Ergo, I have a problem with them making more money than anyone else.
And here we’ve isolated the problem.
So all in all I have no problem with the little guy making some more income. But I do have a problem with people making the most gold in this game by purely flipping the traiding post. And keep in mind what a suggestions is: A suggestion, ergo not final. If you have a better idea of how to stop the richest of the rich, then say it.
Here is your problem. Why do we need stop the richest of the rich? If we come up with a magical solution to stop TP Barons from making so much gold than we just get a new activity that makes people the richest of the rich. Say arbitrarily that dungeon running is the new best way to make gold and that’s playing the game right? Well a lot of people find this tedious and boring to speed run every day and then they will complain that this has to change. So do you think its unfair that TP Barons make the most money or do you think its unfair that you don’t get to be the richest by doing what you like to do?
(edited by Schizo.1375)
Stop them from what and why? They aren’t a problem.
Stop them from making the most gold with mechanics that aren’t core-mechanics of GW2. GW2 isn’t build around the traiding post, the traiding post has nothing to do with the design of a MMO and noone buys GW2 to play the traiding post.
Everything you have just said here … is wrong.
TP is a core mechanic because it’s the only reliable method to get materials/gear in this game … and it’s obviously intended to be this way from concept to design right to it’s implementations. It’s not relevant if people buy GW2 to play the trading post. It’s still an intended, integral part of the game. That’s just nonsense to think something that people get enjoyment from doing and are allowed to do by the design of the game itself so they continue playing the game should be prevented.
Where I have the most problem with your logic is that you seem to think that Anet has somehow unintentionally made the TP in a way that people could make lots of money from it. You think people making much money on the TP is a mistake; It’s intended by design. If it wasn’t, their wouldn’t be people doing it and there wouldn’t be Anet supporting it.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
TP is a core mechanic because it’s the only reliable method to get materials/gear in this game … and it’s obviously intended to be this way from conecpt to design right to it’s implementations.
Quoting this for further usage…ty
Serenity now~Insanity later
So all in all I have no problem with the little guy making some more income. But I do have a problem with people making the most gold in this game by purely flipping the traiding post. And keep in mind what a suggestions is: A suggestion, ergo not final. If you have a better idea of how to stop the richest of the rich, then say it.
Here is your problem. Why do we need stop the richest of the rich? If we come up with a magical solution to stop TP Barons from making so much gold than we just get a new activity that makes people the richest of the rich. Say arbitrarily that dungeon running is the new best way to make gold and that’s playing the game right? Well a lot of people find this tedious and boring to speed run every day and then they will complain that this has to change. So do you think its unfair that TP Barons make the most money or do you think its unfair that you don’t get to be the richest by doing what you like to do?
People who are farming materials can make as much money as people who run dungeons. Any other source of reliable income is ArenaNet’s cup of tea: Encouraging more people to do different thing while still getting rewarded. Traiding post flipping can’t and shouldn’t be the answer to a lack of ways to get a good amount of gold.
And yes, ofcourse new people will become the richest of the rich, but they will be way poorer than the current TP barons. The flipping can get way more out of hand than enything else, since it is based on two variables, rather than on one, like for any other method of acquiring gold.
None the less, the game wont be perfectly equal, as wont the world: That’s not my intention. But the world has shown how bad it can be if few people become richer and richer, while the most stay poor. The world can’t be balanced, there are way too many factors and noone is in charge of everything. But atleast in the real world, the richest of the rich give something back to the countries through fees, which does help everyone.
In Guildwars however the fees wont help anyone and the economy can actually be controled be ANet. So why can’t the game be atleast somewhat more equal if we even get the chance to make it happen.
People who are farming materials can make as much money as people who run dungeons. Any other source of reliable income is ArenaNet’s cup of tea: Encouraging more people to do different thing while still getting rewarded. Traiding post flipping can’t and shouldn’t be the answer to a lack of ways to get a good amount of gold.
This makes no sense … TP wasn’t ‘introduced’ at some later date as an ‘answer’ to some deficiency in gold-making methods. It’s been their from the start as an intended feature, integral to the game and it’s function.
Stop them from what and why? They aren’t a problem.
Stop them from making the most gold with mechanics that aren’t core-mechanics of GW2. GW2 isn’t build around the traiding post, the traiding post has nothing to do with the design of a MMO and noone buys GW2 to play the traiding post.
Everything you have just said here … is wrong.
TP is a core mechanic because it’s the only reliable method to get materials/gear in this game … and it’s obviously intended to be this way from concept to design right to it’s implementations. It’s not relevant if people buy GW2 to play the trading post. It’s still an intended, integral part of the game. That’s just nonsense to think something that people get enjoyment from doing and are allowed to do by the design of the game itself so they continue playing the game should be prevented.
Where I have the most problem with your logic is that you seem to think that Anet has somehow unintentionally made the TP in a way that people could make lots of money from it. You think people making much money on the TP is a mistake; It’s intended by design. If it wasn’t, their wouldn’t be people doing it and there wouldn’t be Anet supporting it.
Yes it is the reliable source of materials. It is however not intended to be such a great way to make money. As I’ve said before, I have no problem if someone can make money out of the traiding post, even if I don’t like him raising the costs of materials I want to buy. I do have a problem with players making the most gold in the whole game out of the traiding post, which is not a core mechanic of the game. If noone would sell something to the traiding post, noone could make money out of it. If you play the regular conten, you still make money, no matter how many players participate in this content.
Stop them from what and why? They aren’t a problem.
Stop them from making the most gold with mechanics that aren’t core-mechanics of GW2. GW2 isn’t build around the traiding post, the traiding post has nothing to do with the design of a MMO and noone buys GW2 to play the traiding post.
Everything you have just said here … is wrong.
TP is a core mechanic because it’s the only reliable method to get materials/gear in this game … and it’s obviously intended to be this way from concept to design right to it’s implementations. It’s not relevant if people buy GW2 to play the trading post. It’s still an intended, integral part of the game. That’s just nonsense to think something that people get enjoyment from doing and are allowed to do by the design of the game itself so they continue playing the game should be prevented.
Where I have the most problem with your logic is that you seem to think that Anet has somehow unintentionally made the TP in a way that people could make lots of money from it. You think people making much money on the TP is a mistake; It’s intended by design. If it wasn’t, their wouldn’t be people doing it and there wouldn’t be Anet supporting it.
Yes it is the reliable source of materials. It is however not intended to be such a great way to make money.
That is something you simply don’t know and can’t state as a fact. If it wasn’t intended to be a way to make money or even huge amounts of money, it wouldn’t work the way it does from the beginning of the game.
You can continue to claim TP isn’t a core mechanic but that doesn’t make it true. It’s there for players to make the game playable, intended and NECESSARY from the start of the game. This is why it’s a core part of the game. I’m not sure how you can deny this.
It’s not even a valid argument to say people shouldn’t be making lots of money because it’s not a core element. That’s just semantics. This is a sandbox .. Anet doesn’t dictate to anyone how they HAVE to make their money. They make methods avaialble to players to make money …. this is one of them. They obviously don’t care people make money on TP, core or not.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Regarding OP’s ignorance;
People often disregard the other IMPORTANT elements concerning each transaction on the TP, which are time, information, and risk. Each of these three elements are considered when doing every TP transaction. The difference between a “Buy Now” transaction and “List your own price” is time. TP traders make most of their money off of impatient people, people who have limited time, but are willing to spend gold to make up the difference. An example of this would be, say you needed 50 ectoplasms for a recipe and you needed it now. You are trading the extra 1 gold you spend with the “Buy Now” option (lowest sell offer) over the 10-20 minutes you would have spent waiting for that offer to complete on the highest buy offer. On the other end of the spectrum, there are impatient people who sell their ectoplasms immedietly after acquiring them from a salvage, and even though they can make an extra 2s per ectoplasm by waiting the 10-20 minutes for it to sell, they would rather have that gold now. You cannot just disregard time as a resource/item of transaction, because of such things as opportunity costs.
The other important element is information. In the real world, not everyone has equal access to information. Things like patch notes and experience (on items that are good to flip) are valuable weapons in every trader’s kitten nal. Some people might be playing when patch notes come out, and are the first ones to log in. Those people have the advantage, and information power over others who were too late to the punch. The most recent example is the Bazaar rewards (wind catchers, rucksacks etc.). People who were first to log in realized that the gauntlet rewards now had a random chance at giving previous bazaar rewards, and this allowed those who had those items to sell quickly and minimize losses before the item could crash from speculation. Those who were too late, lost out on that opportunity and the potential gold. Next up is experience, just like how an experienced dungeon runner would naturally make more gold p/h on average than an inexperienced one, the same runs for traders. Naturally, this is not free, and this also comes with time. For example, you may know from countless trial and error that a particular item gives great reward and turnover rates (how often it’s sold/bought), and this is an advantage you hold over other players.
Finally, the concept of risk. It seems a lot of you fail to acknowledge the amounts of risks associated with trading. Consider my previous example of Bazaar rewards. There were people who took the risk of investing in wind catchers or rucksacks, but were punished heavily once the patch notes came out. Other people took the risks of buying them up again during the event while they were low, and were rewarded with the rewards returning to their previous values, but the more greedy ones were punished later on as they crashed heavily (down 80%, they held on to them for too long!). With every transaction, is a risk. You can easily lose your bank overnight from bad investments with how the market moves, but you could easily make all that back in another lucky investment. There are very few people who are willing to take risks, and in doing so they are rewarded with the chance to make it big.
Trading and the TP is not a simple matter of gold for item transactions, you also must consider other factors as well, espicially time. Why do people spend real money on gold/gems? Because these people have abundant funds, but limited time. Same with every transaction on the TP. Why do people buy an item on lowest sell offer instead of waiting it out with the highest buy offer? Because these people have abundant funds, but limited time. In all these situations, it is because they are WILLING to do so. So, if your selfish request were to go through, you are taking away these people’s way to play, people who are willing to spend more gold to spend less time. Not everyone has time to play GW2 all day. Some people want their items NOW, and these people are how most traders make their money from. Also, TP flipping is not where most people make their 1000’s of gold from, or cause many of the highly valued items to be inaccessable to the majority (such as precorsurs). It is speculation. And speculation will always exist even with trade restrictions, since it’s driven by demand. TP flipping is for STEADY incomes, speculation is for HUGE wins/losses. And with both methods, they always include the risk factor. For every success story you hear about someone making thousands off of “predicting” an item that skyrocketed, there are 10 other poor chumps who lost everything they had investing in quartz crystals. Those people just aren’t vocal about it. It seems like this whole thread is just full of jealous, single minded, VERY VOCAL individuals who just can’t seem to grasp the idea that not everyone has to play the same way as they do.
People who are farming materials can make as much money as people who run dungeons. Any other source of reliable income is ArenaNet’s cup of tea: Encouraging more people to do different thing while still getting rewarded. Traiding post flipping can’t and shouldn’t be the answer to a lack of ways to get a good amount of gold.
This makes no sense … TP wasn’t ‘introduced’ at some later date as an ‘answer’ to some deficiency in gold-making methods. It’s been their from the start as an intended feature, integral to the game and it’s function.
Not ANet is answering, the players are. Why do players flip the traiding post? Because they get more gold out of it than doing anything else. They are using a method that was not intended to offer the highest margin (atleast I hope it wasn’t planned that way), but it does because the restrictions are too low and the alternatives are not as rewarding. The most rewarding way in the game should be to do as many activites as possible: Farming easy dongeons, farming some mats, while flipping the traiding post. Instead purely flipping the traiding post gives the greatest revenue out of all things you could do. In the most optimal case, you would hardly have a different revenue, no matter if you farm events, materials, dungeons or the traiding post.
Stop them from what and why? They aren’t a problem.
Stop them from making the most gold with mechanics that aren’t core-mechanics of GW2. GW2 isn’t build around the traiding post, the traiding post has nothing to do with the design of a MMO and noone buys GW2 to play the traiding post.
Everything you have just said here … is wrong.
TP is a core mechanic because it’s the only reliable method to get materials/gear in this game … and it’s obviously intended to be this way from concept to design right to it’s implementations. It’s not relevant if people buy GW2 to play the trading post. It’s still an intended, integral part of the game. That’s just nonsense to think something that people get enjoyment from doing and are allowed to do by the design of the game itself so they continue playing the game should be prevented.
Where I have the most problem with your logic is that you seem to think that Anet has somehow unintentionally made the TP in a way that people could make lots of money from it. You think people making much money on the TP is a mistake; It’s intended by design. If it wasn’t, their wouldn’t be people doing it and there wouldn’t be Anet supporting it.
Yes it is the reliable source of materials. It is however not intended to be such a great way to make money.
That is something you simply don’t know and can’t state as a fact. If it wasn’t intended to be a way to make money or even huge amounts of money, it wouldn’t work the way it does from the beginning of the game.
You can continue to claim TP isn’t a core mechanic but that doesn’t make it true. It’s there for players to make the game playable, intended and NECESSARY from the start of the game. This is why it’s a core part of the game. I’m not sure how you can deny this.
It is a core mechanic as a way to get materials, a way for people who have materials they don’t need to sell them. That is the core mechanic, that is intended and needed for a healthy game. However it is not intended to give the greatest revenue in this game.
First of all, I hope you’re not confusing flipping with speculation. Speculation is another can of worms you don’t want to open, because it will always be there as long as there is any form of free trade going around. Second of all, why are the players making so much of flipping to begin with? The profit margins are based on their current wealth/amount of money they are willing to deticate to flipping. A person who only has 10G would not make as much money as a person with 1000G flipping, even if they are both making, let’s say 5% a day. Farming events, materials, dungeons are not associated with current wealth, and a person with 5G will still make 3G+some off an Arah path as opposed to a person with 1000G. You simply cannot compare the two methods of making money, because each has different factors when considering how money is made
First of all, I hope you’re not confusing flipping with speculation. Speculation is another can of worms you don’t want to open, because it will always be there as long as there is any form of free trade going around. Second of all, why are the players making so much of flipping to begin with? The profit margins are based on their current wealth/amount of money they are willing to deticate to flipping. A person who only has 10G would not make as much money as a person with 1000G flipping, even if they are both making, let’s say 5% a day. Farming events, materials, dungeons are not associated with current wealth, and a person with 5G will still make 3G+some off an Arah path as opposed to a person with 1000G. You simply cannot compare the two methods of making money, because each has different factors when considering how money is made
A guy who makes 100g every day will have 100g more each day.
A guy who makes 5% more gold every day will some day, sooner than later, make more gold than 100g per day, no matter how much gold he had initially (more than 0g obviously).
First of all, I hope you’re not confusing flipping with speculation. Speculation is another can of worms you don’t want to open, because it will always be there as long as there is any form of free trade going around. Second of all, why are the players making so much of flipping to begin with? The profit margins are based on their current wealth/amount of money they are willing to deticate to flipping. A person who only has 10G would not make as much money as a person with 1000G flipping, even if they are both making, let’s say 5% a day. Farming events, materials, dungeons are not associated with current wealth, and a person with 5G will still make 3G+some off an Arah path as opposed to a person with 1000G. You simply cannot compare the two methods of making money, because each has different factors when considering how money is made
A guy who makes 100g every day will have 100g more each day.
A guy who makes 5% more gold every day will some day, sooner than later, make more gold than 100g per day, no matter how much gold he had initially (more than 0g obviously).
But just because i can make 5g per day flipping iron greatsword blades doesnt mean, i can make 10g doing the same, if i invest more gold into it. I have to find a different item to flip, which takes more time to monitor and flip.
I can maybe monitor and update buy orders on 50 items simultanously and have a profit margin of 15% but if i do the same with 500 items, i wont have a profit margin of 15% anymore because it takes me 10 times more time to update each buy order. That means, my buy orders get outbid far more frequently and thus get filled at a much slower rate, which lowers my profits per item to less than 5%.
You are arguing, or assuming, that profits on the tp are infinite, which is not the case.
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
~~~snip~~~
Allow me to explain why the Trading Post is working as intended. In America, and most other leading countries, free markets provide the greatest opportunity to make money. Note the word “opportunity”. You are NOT guaranteed to make money, no matter how much you try to spin it. For me, I lost a lot of money on the TP. That’s not because I can’t add 15% to my costs. It’s because the value of the items that I purchased dropped. All the math in the world can’t save you from declining values.
TP Traders are healthy for the economy, as they provide a valuable service to both buyers and sellers of goods. They provide Gold to people who want to sell their items, and then they provide the items to other players who are willing to pay for them. The difference here between the buy and sell price is called Profit. You take the cost of the goods, and then the positive difference in what it’s resold for is the Trader’s reward for providing that service.
The problem, as others have pointed out, is not Traders. The problem is that you’re not happy that other people can make money. This is called Jealousy. This emotion isn’t inherently a bad thing. But until you can provide a solid argument against players who make money on the TP, it’s best that you be honest with yourself.
In GW2, Trading Post plays you!
First, TP flipping can’t scale indefinitely due to simple supply flow issues. So no infinite compound interest for the rich.
Second, because just about all reward drops are random, the only way anyone can be sure to get what they need is buying it from another. Coincidentally there are a lot of players wanting to get rid of the stuff they don’t want and that’s the reason for the TP.
Now other than establishing vendor prices on dropped items which defines the low end, ANet doesn’t touch the TP other than getting their 15% cut to help limit inflation. Bits and sell orders are entirely player driven.
The reason flippers can make any money at all is because a disproportionately large number of players simply don’t care about maximizing their earnings/controlling their costs when using the TP. They want their money/item NOW. Doesn’t matter if it costs a few % more for the items they want or they get a few % less from items they are selling. They want the immediacy. And that is where flippers step in when the price difference is wide enough for a profit to be made. They are simply using the same options that’s available to everyone, but only with a different goal in mind. It’s no different than in the real world where small business’s deal with a supplier rather than going directly to each manufacturer. TP flippers use the player base who seeks immediacy to both farm for them and act as the supplier they buy from. They provide the immediacy that players are seeking by evening out availability of buyers and sellers throughout the day, the immediacy that they seem quite willing to pay for.
Something else you may be overlooking is that there aren’t just one flipper for each item. This means there is some over/under cutting which is what stabilize prices toward the equilibrium. Unless of course you think there are cartels of players cooperating in manipulating prices.
You want to beat TP flippers? Educate your fellow players and help deny TP flippers both their supply and customers. Otherwise nothing else you say or suggests matters. The TP serves it’s function by providing a free and open market for players to trade their unwanted drops and crafted items. Unlike selling to a vendor, every TP sale removes money from the economy to help control inflation rather than add to it. The fact that some players can choose to play a player merchant and earn an income from doing it, more power to them.
What if crafting was highly profitable? Would you then be upset at the player craftsmen then? Not everyone has to be an adventurer fighting the good fight in an MMO.
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
Actually, i dare you to find a Dev that posts more than him. Its only Anet employees that work in community relations (Gaile, Grouch, Danicia) that might have a higher post count.
Just because you asked.
Ashley Segovia
Mark Katzbach
Jeffrey Vaughn
Devon Carver
Allie Murdock
Chris Whiteside
Jason King
and Robert Hrouda b4 he left…to name a few
Basically, what Obtena already mentioned. I mean meaningful responses towards player post from a Dev, not people working in customer Support/ Public Relations or just posting general info.
Some of the names you mentioned didnt mean much to me so i did some research.
Ashley Segovia works in Tech Support, so not a Dev.
Mark Katzbach is Community Special Ops, so a good junk of his posts are simply game update notes or bug fixes or community related posts, like closing or merging topics.
I do agree though, that he also gives alot of feedback but i expect that more from a Community SPecial Ops than from the Head Economist.
Jeffrey Vaughn seems to work in design, so i guess he qualifies. Alot of his posts seem to be bug related though.
Devon Carver might come close over 2 years, unfortunately, his record over the last 6 months is not so good.
Allie Murdock left ArenaNet and in the end was involved in Community Relations, iirc, first in PvP, then also WvW. I liked her stuff, though.
Chris Whiteside qualifies, good chap.
Jason King left a year ago and was Live Response embed, so CS.
Robert Hrouda left.
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
increasing the precursor drop rate can, counter intuitively, cause an increase in the price. Are we confident that flippers actually lower prices in a virtual economy?
I’m confident that flipping lowers aggregate prices from the amount of coin it sinks alone; you don’t even have to look at the time and risk premiums on individual goods.
The whole ‘increasing supply via higher drop rates increases demand’ isn’t some virtual economy mystery; it’s a wealth effect. Increasing the drop rate of some high demand item is effectively increasing everyone’s real income. When you increase people’s real incomes, their buying patterns change. Easiest way to think of it is that when players (or people) feel poor, they hold onto whatever they get tight, but when they later feel rich, the money flows; it’s the same general idea here.
As for the real costs of concentrated wealth – I don’t see any credit or capital markets for that to unbalance, and there isn’t any regulatory body to capture, so the only real effect I can see is increased market volatility in response to a shock – which isn’t the sort of thing that makes people break out the pitchforks.
Flipping does not increase any price, in fact, without flippers sell orders could be higher, if you don’t understand this, then you don’t understand how it works, plus with the gold sink it creates its actually helping reduce inflation, which is good for everyone.
Sorry for my spelling
yeah… no. How, in gods name, should people who buying cheap and selling expensive help keeping the prices down? It makes no sense.
well, for start, you seem not understand that flippers don’t set prices at will, we only watch the prices that are set by the market, and work with it, if I see buy orders at 50c and sell orders at 1g, I buy at 50c and relist at 99c, thats it, you tell me how is that increasing the price?
Again, sorry for spelling
Balrog Black | Human Guardian
[MEX] Legión Del Águila
Yak’s Bend
[MEX] Legión Del Águila
Yak’s Bend
The “price” is artificial, not set, the “price” is only what the buyers WANT to pay for it. Just because you don’t want to buy something at 2g doesn’t mean someone else (with more funds) doesn’t. This whole thread reeks of single-mindedness and ignorance.
Stop them from what and why? They aren’t a problem.
Stop them from making the most gold with mechanics that aren’t core-mechanics of GW2. GW2 isn’t build around the traiding post, the traiding post has nothing to do with the design of a MMO and noone buys GW2 to play the traiding post.
Everything you have just said here … is wrong.
TP is a core mechanic because it’s the only reliable method to get materials/gear in this game … and it’s obviously intended to be this way from concept to design right to it’s implementations. It’s not relevant if people buy GW2 to play the trading post. It’s still an intended, integral part of the game. That’s just nonsense to think something that people get enjoyment from doing and are allowed to do by the design of the game itself so they continue playing the game should be prevented.
Where I have the most problem with your logic is that you seem to think that Anet has somehow unintentionally made the TP in a way that people could make lots of money from it. You think people making much money on the TP is a mistake; It’s intended by design. If it wasn’t, their wouldn’t be people doing it and there wouldn’t be Anet supporting it.
Yes it is the reliable source of materials. It is however not intended to be such a great way to make money.
That is something you simply don’t know and can’t state as a fact. If it wasn’t intended to be a way to make money or even huge amounts of money, it wouldn’t work the way it does from the beginning of the game.
You can continue to claim TP isn’t a core mechanic but that doesn’t make it true. It’s there for players to make the game playable, intended and NECESSARY from the start of the game. This is why it’s a core part of the game. I’m not sure how you can deny this.
It is a core mechanic as a way to get materials, a way for people who have materials they don’t need to sell them. That is the core mechanic, that is intended and needed for a healthy game. However it is not intended to give the greatest revenue in this game.
AGAIN … That is something you simply don’t know and can’t state as a fact. I’m certain when Anet was sitting around their table designing the TP, they knew there were going to be players who would be making big money on the TP … and they STILL put it in game this way. They HAD to have known … other games with similar features have the same players making the same big money with the same methods. It’s not something they would have overlooked. It’s something they knew would happen.
You’re in denial here. If Anet implemented a system they knew would generate large amounts of wealth for some individuals, that shows they approve of the ability for it to make people money. Even if they DON’T intend or approve of allowing it to make a few super rich individuals, they tolerate it because of the recognition that the TP’s benefit outweighs the ‘problem’ of having a few people get rich from it.
Either way, you are severely misguided by your beliefs. It’s not a problem for the game or it’s players. It’s only a problem to people who are jealous or have some moral hangup.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
I actually made a thread about this 5 minutes ago , sorry for not posting here first , yes this is a big freakin i got back into the game 2 weeks ago last week twilight was at 2.3 now it spike to 3.5k , guyz cmon lets be serious this is a hot mess people/players shouldnt pe allowed to control the marketplace like this we have been discussing this for 2 years and nothing has been done.
People keep telling me that the game evolved and alot more players joined and stuff like that but that’s a load of cr4p since one guy has 50k atleast and buyes off everything and puts it back tripled the next morning.
I relogged after a 4 month brake and now i regret it , seeing spark at 1.2 k ? lol it’s a joke
Anet wake up.
play hard , go pro.
(edited by offence.4726)
First, TP flipping can’t scale indefinitely due to simple supply flow issues. So no infinite compound interest for the rich.
Second, because just about all reward drops are random, the only way anyone can be sure to get what they need is buying it from another. Coincidentally there are a lot of players wanting to get rid of the stuff they don’t want and that’s the reason for the TP.
Now other than establishing vendor prices on dropped items which defines the low end, ANet doesn’t touch the TP other than getting their 15% cut to help limit inflation. Bits and sell orders are entirely player driven.
The reason flippers can make any money at all is because a disproportionately large number of players simply don’t care about maximizing their earnings/controlling their costs when using the TP. They want their money/item NOW. Doesn’t matter if it costs a few % more for the items they want or they get a few % less from items they are selling. They want the immediacy. And that is where flippers step in when the price difference is wide enough for a profit to be made. They are simply using the same options that’s available to everyone, but only with a different goal in mind. It’s no different than in the real world where small business’s deal with a supplier rather than going directly to each manufacturer. TP flippers use the player base who seeks immediacy to both farm for them and act as the supplier they buy from. They provide the immediacy that players are seeking by evening out availability of buyers and sellers throughout the day, the immediacy that they seem quite willing to pay for.
Something else you may be overlooking is that there aren’t just one flipper for each item. This means there is some over/under cutting which is what stabilize prices toward the equilibrium. Unless of course you think there are cartels of players cooperating in manipulating prices.
You want to beat TP flippers? Educate your fellow players and help deny TP flippers both their supply and customers. Otherwise nothing else you say or suggests matters. The TP serves it’s function by providing a free and open market for players to trade their unwanted drops and crafted items. Unlike selling to a vendor, every TP sale removes money from the economy to help control inflation rather than add to it. The fact that some players can choose to play a player merchant and earn an income from doing it, more power to them.
What if crafting was highly profitable? Would you then be upset at the player craftsmen then? Not everyone has to be an adventurer fighting the good fight in an MMO.
the fact that it doesnt scale infinitely is largely irrelevant, because it scales way higher than anything else.
maybe you run out of options at 500 gold a day (though i doubt it, you just have to work harder)
but 500 gold a day would be something like 16 times what someone would get running every dungeon path in the game, or 7 times as much as a farmer farming 10 hours a day.
so yeah, the fact that its not infinite isnt really relevant to the fact that its limits geometrically surpass other methods of earning
Also, one wonders why create an environment where players are basically trash collectors, and flippers are dump divers? It really does seem as if the Overall economy was made for flippers benefit.
(edited by phys.7689)
the fact that it doesnt scale infinitely is largely irrelevant, because it scales way higher than anything else.
maybe you run out of options at 500 gold a day (though i doubt it, you just have to work harder)
but 500 gold a day would be something like 16 times what someone would get running every dungeon path in the game, or 7 times as much as a farmer farming 10 hours a day.
so yeah, the fact that its not infinite isnt really relevant to the fact that its limits geometrically surpass other methods of earningAlso, one wonders why create an environment where players are basically trash collectors, and flippers are dump divers? It really does seem as if the Overall economy was made for flippers benefit.
^This is exactly the point. You wont make infinite money through the traiding post, you will however still make the most money out of everyone else.
AGAIN … That is something you simply don’t know and can’t state as a fact. I’m certain when Anet was sitting around their table designing the TP, they knew there were going to be players who would be making big money on the TP … and they STILL put it in game this way. They HAD to have known … other games with similar features have the same players making the same big money with the same methods. It’s not something they would have overlooked. It’s something they knew would happen.
You’re in denial here. If Anet implemented a system they knew would generate large amounts of wealth for some individuals, that shows they approve of the ability for it to make people money. Even if they DON’T intend or approve of allowing it to make a few super rich individuals, they tolerate it because of the recognition that the TP’s benefit outweighs the ‘problem’ of having a few people get rich from it.
Either way, you are severely misguided by your beliefs. It’s not a problem for the game or it’s players. It’s only a problem to people who are jealous or have some moral hangup.
Read the second part of phys’ post, he sums it up quite good.
If you say that the traiding post is intended to give the highest reward you imply that the rest of the game is tailored around the traiding post, that every other activity in the game is there to fuel the traiding post and its flippers.
Basically the end of a game, the end-game, is that what should give the highest reward. All people try to reach it to get the best rewards. If now the traiding post gives the highest reward, the traiding post is the end-game, which means that anything else isn’t meant to be as effective as the traiding post flipping.
So all comes down to ANet’s design decision: What is the core gameplay they try to deliver? I really hope for the sake of this game that flipping the traiding post isn’t considered as “gameplay mechanic” or even as end-game. This leaves the question why it’s more rewarding than the actual end-game, speaking of high-level PvE (Dungeons, Fractals), PvP and WvW.
I actually made a thread about this 5 minutes ago , sorry for not posting here first , yes this is a big freakin i got back into the game 2 weeks ago last week twilight was at 2.3 now it spike to 3.5k , guyz cmon lets be serious this is a hot mess people/players shouldnt pe allowed to control the marketplace like this we have been discussing this for 2 years and nothing has been done.
People keep telling me that the game evolved and alot more players joined and stuff like that but that’s a load of cr4p since one guy has 50k atleast and buyes off everything and puts it back tripled the next morning.
I relogged after a 4 month brake and now i regret it , seeing spark at 1.2 k ? lol it’s a joke
Anet wake up.
Twilight wasnt available for 2.3k since last september. And its price was rising because the prices for the mats increased as well, has nothing to do with people manipulating hte market.
“play hard, go pro” as signature…..
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
If you say that the traiding post is intended to give the highest reward you imply that the rest of the game is tailored around the traiding post, that every other activity in the game is there to fuel the traiding post and its flippers.
Basically the end of a game, the end-game, is that what should give the highest reward. All people try to reach it to get the best rewards. If now the traiding post gives the highest reward, the traiding post is the end-game, which means that anything else isn’t meant to be as effective as the traiding post flipping.
So all comes down to ANet’s design decision: What is the core gameplay they try to deliver? I really hope for the sake of this game that flipping the traiding post isn’t considered as “gameplay mechanic” or even as end-game. This leaves the question why it’s more rewarding than the actual end-game, speaking of high-level PvE (Dungeons, Fractals), PvP and WvW.
First of all you have the misconception that the tp offers rewards, which is not true.
The tp offers profits, which is entirely different. Rewards are generated out of thin air for completing tasks in game, profits are paid for by other players. Anet can regulate game rewards but it cant regulate profits, that is for the players to do.
Also many endgame rewards cant be bought with gold. The TP doesnt award experience, skillpoints, karma, badges, ascended mats, event currency, dungeon tokens, laurels or guild commendations.
Granted, Legendaries can still be bought with gold ( they shouldnt, in my opinion) but at least that gives players a way to make profit off their karma, skillpoints, tokens and map completion, should they chose to craft and sell one.
So someone who plays the tp all day cant get a single piece of ascended gear, dungeon skins, Living story or Festival meta and other rewards, Minis, backpieces, skins, cooking recipes and the new gear stats. No stuff for him from the guild commendation or laurel vendor, no AP chest skins.
So i think its fair to say that quite alot of andgame rewards cant be obtained through the tp.
I also disagree with your assumption that rich players are responsible for price inflation because their demand for shiny stuff compared to the general player base is miniscule.
I suggest that you, instead of arguing that something has to be done, make a suggestion on how to improve the status quo.
I think i remember you have done so a little in your OP, so i will read it again and make another post.
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
First of all you have the misconception that the tp offers rewards, which is not true.
The tp offers profits, which is entirely different. Rewards are generated out of thin air for completing tasks in game, profits are paid for by other players. Anet can regulate game rewards but it cant regulate profits, that is for the players to do.
A matter of diction, it doesn’t change the fact that traiding post flippers get the most gold. And nearly everything can be bought with gold, even dungeonpaths. Any other currency is free for all and there is absolutely no skill required to farm the worldboss rotation. It doesn’t even stop you from flipping the traiding post.
Suggestion:
Add a new binding mechanic, in addition to account bound or soulbound, that prevent the reselling of items bought from the trading post and the reselling of items gathered/crafted/forged out of items which were bought from the tradingpost.
Implementing this has alot of difficulties. You basically need a new item code for every tradeable item in the game, which is alot of work. We will also need a seperate slot for every item in our inventory or collectible, 1 for tradeable, one for account bound.
Storage expansion slots (bags, banks, collectibles) will fill up very fast with this and it would result in people only buying what they need for themselves.
I guess the bold statement is basically what you want to achieve with your suggestion.
But unfortunately this will have very harsh consequences for the economy.
I already explained this when i described how flippers and speculators benefit the economy.
Every item that has a bigger supply atm than demand will eventually be only worth its vendor price because nobody will post buy orders and sellers will undercut themselves.
At this point people sell to vendor, destroy the item in the process and generate gold out of thin air, which results in more gold and less supply in circulation.
Once an item goes into demand due to a patch for example, supply will eventually run out and prices will spike. And they will spike harder because there are no speculators anymore that can add supply very quickly.
So prices will fall from 1 extreme into another, from vendor price to the point that some items simply arent available anymore on the tp. Whatever is listed, gets snatched up immediately and buy orders keep rising.
I dont see how this is an approvement over the status quo and would justify the huge implementation costs.
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
First of all you have the misconception that the tp offers rewards, which is not true.
The tp offers profits, which is entirely different. Rewards are generated out of thin air for completing tasks in game, profits are paid for by other players. Anet can regulate game rewards but it cant regulate profits, that is for the players to do.A matter of diction, it doesn’t change the fact that traiding post flippers get the most gold. And nearly everything can be bought with gold, even dungeonpaths. Any other currency is free for all and there is absolutely no skill required to farm the worldboss rotation. It doesn’t even stop you from flipping the traiding post.
Its not a matter of diction, its a completely different game mechanic.
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
If you say that the traiding post is intended to give the highest reward you imply that the rest of the game is tailored around the traiding post, that every other activity in the game is there to fuel the traiding post and its flippers.
Basically the end of a game, the end-game, is that what should give the highest reward. All people try to reach it to get the best rewards. If now the traiding post gives the highest reward, the traiding post is the end-game, which means that anything else isn’t meant to be as effective as the traiding post flipping.
So all comes down to ANet’s design decision: What is the core gameplay they try to deliver? I really hope for the sake of this game that flipping the traiding post isn’t considered as “gameplay mechanic” or even as end-game. This leaves the question why it’s more rewarding than the actual end-game, speaking of high-level PvE (Dungeons, Fractals), PvP and WvW.First of all you have the misconception that the tp offers rewards, which is not true.
The tp offers profits, which is entirely different. Rewards are generated out of thin air for completing tasks in game, profits are paid for by other players. Anet can regulate game rewards but it cant regulate profits, that is for the players to do.Also many endgame rewards cant be bought with gold. The TP doesnt award experience, skillpoints, karma, badges, ascended mats, event currency, dungeon tokens, laurels or guild commendations.
Granted, Legendaries can still be bought with gold ( they shouldnt, in my opinion) but at least that gives players a way to make profit off their karma, skillpoints, tokens and map completion, should they chose to craft and sell one.
So someone who plays the tp all day cant get a single piece of ascended gear, dungeon skins, Living story or Festival meta and other rewards, Minis, backpieces, skins, cooking recipes and the new gear stats. No stuff for him from the guild commendation or laurel vendor, no AP chest skins.So i think its fair to say that quite alot of andgame rewards cant be obtained through the tp.
I also disagree with your assumption that rich players are responsible for price inflation because their demand for shiny stuff compared to the general player base is miniscule.
I suggest that you, instead of arguing that something has to be done, make a suggestion on how to improve the status quo.
I think i remember you have done so a little in your OP, so i will read it again and make another post.
those are mostly midgame rewards, or rewards that require gold to capitalize on.
karma: mostly useful for picking up armor without gold, and some crafting mats: endgame use? requires gold to be used for ascended, and gold to be used for legendaries
Skillpoints: mostly used for skills, pretty good for gameplay, problems is, it has very little use, in a few cases it can be turned into gold at a pretty poor rate.
ascended mats have no use on their own. they are the easier part of the ascended equation by far. in order to use them you need gold.
dungeon tokens? well you can buy paths, but regardless, dungeon tokens arent really endgame, its more of a midgame goal, only like 3 dungeons are level 75+
laurels, are an attendance currency, i wouldnt call them endgame.
As for the rich not being enough to effect prices, that depends on how many “rich” people there are, how fast they can earn, and the demand and supply of the item.
if there is a sizable gap between 60% and 30% of the player base, any item whose supply is small enough that it can be marketed to those 30% consistently, will be, if the demand is there.
Im not saying they can or should change this(thats another debate), but regardless, it is the truth according to the system.
Suggestion:
Add a new binding mechanic, in addition to account bound or soulbound, that prevent the reselling of items bought from the trading post and the reselling of items gathered/crafted/forged out of items which were bought from the tradingpost.Implementing this has alot of difficulties. You basically need a new item code for every tradeable item in the game, which is alot of work. We will also need a seperate slot for every item in our inventory or collectible, 1 for tradeable, one for account bound.
Storage expansion slots (bags, banks, collectibles) will fill up very fast with this and it would result in people only buying what they need for themselves.
I guess the bold statement is basically what you want to achieve with your suggestion.
But unfortunately this will have very harsh consequences for the economy.
I already explained this when i described how flippers and speculators benefit the economy.
Every item that has a bigger supply atm than demand will eventually be only worth its vendor price because nobody will post buy orders and sellers will undercut themselves.At this point people sell to vendor, destroy the item in the process and generate gold out of thin air, which results in more gold and less supply in circulation.
Once an item goes into demand due to a patch for example, supply will eventually run out and prices will spike. And they will spike harder because there are no speculators anymore that can add supply very quickly.
So prices will fall from 1 extreme into another, from vendor price to the point that some items simply arent available anymore on the tp. Whatever is listed, gets snatched up immediately and buy orders keep rising.
I dont see how this is an approvement over the status quo and would justify the huge implementation costs.
Your arguments would hold true in the real economy, however they don’t regarding the GuildWars 2 economy. In GW2, there are only two direct factors that matter and one indirect. The two direct ones are supply and demand, the indirect is the gold an average player has. The supply is limitless so it’s there is no use in smaller the supply inflow. The only thing you create as flipper is an artificial inflation since you buy items others could’ve bought and resell it more expensive. If you wouldn’t sell the price would also increase, since more people could afford the items you would’ve bought, until it reaches the same price niveau we have now.
We also had already a phase where the supply inflow were way bigger, when all the botters were around. The prices decreased, actually they were half as expensive as they’re now, but they didn’t crashed or something. The only negative argument about that state was that farming materials for oneself wasn’t effective.
Also, you’re drastically exaggerating the priceloss if flipping wouldn’t be possible anymore. I’ve never seen an item in the traiding post selling below vendor price, I think it’s not even possible. Furthermore if an item is too common to be profitable anymore, it is, for the most case, that easy to acquire or that bad that you don’t have to go to the traiding post to buy it. It’s a matter of supply and demand. If the demand isn’t there, you can’t sell anything. If however someone wants to buy an item that isn’t listed in the traiding post, he can create a listing himself that is above the vendor price and he’ll surely get his item within a day.
So prices will fall from 1 extreme into another, from vendor price to the point that some items simply arent available anymore on the tp. Whatever is listed, gets snatched up immediately and buy orders keep rising.
This is certainly true but flippers do only delay the rise or fall of itemprices. People wont magically be ok to spend more or less on the traiding post, so there will always be margins the prices will fluctuate between.
(edited by HHR LostProphet.4801)
That is one of the reasons why speculators are bad: they make gold by draining other players gold.
So this entire thread is about anti-capitalism in general (because the above is pretty much a justification for any free market). Glad I didn’t waste my time reading all of it….
We go out in the world and take our chances
Fate is just the weight of circumstances
That’s the way that lady luck dances
Fate is just the weight of circumstances
That’s the way that lady luck dances
First of all you have the misconception that the tp offers rewards, which is not true.
The tp offers profits, which is entirely different. Rewards are generated out of thin air for completing tasks in game, profits are paid for by other players. Anet can regulate game rewards but it cant regulate profits, that is for the players to do.A matter of diction, it doesn’t change the fact that traiding post flippers get the most gold. And nearly everything can be bought with gold, even dungeonpaths. Any other currency is free for all and there is absolutely no skill required to farm the worldboss rotation. It doesn’t even stop you from flipping the traiding post.
Its not a matter of diction, its a completely different game mechanic.
But I mean gold as reward, so it’s indeed a matter of diction.
That is one of the reasons why speculators are bad: they make gold by draining other players gold.
So this entire thread is about anti-capitalism in general (because the above is pretty much a justification for any free market). Glad I didn’t waste my time reading all of it….
Yeah, if you would’ve read the whole thread, you probably wouldn’t post that comment.
And capitalism is neither about draining others money, nor is being against peolpe who make profit at someone else’s expense anti-capitalsm.
That is one of the reasons why speculators are bad: they make gold by draining other players gold.
So this entire thread is about anti-capitalism in general (because the above is pretty much a justification for any free market). Glad I didn’t waste my time reading all of it….
actually capitalism isnt supposed to be about draining money from others, its basically a theory that everyone will benefit from everyone competing to give each other goods and services.
But honestly capitalism doesnt really work on its own, its an idealized theoretical state that needs some measure of oversight in order to succeed. Uncontrolled capitalism is very volatile, and exploitive by nature.
But all of this is irrelevant, because our GW2 economy is too different from real world analogs, for things like capitalism to really exist in GW2.
But I can understand that shutting down all flipping in the game, like I have suggested, could be too harsh. Another idea would be to limit buy offers to be atleast 80% -85% of the price the lowest sell listing is currently. That however would also hit normal people who try to get an item as cheap as possible. Another idea would be to limit the total capacity of buy- and sell listings, both itemcount-wise and gold-wise. The exact limit would’ve to be determined, so that flipping isn’t as rewarding gold-wise but still possible.
First of all you have the misconception that the tp offers rewards, which is not true.
The tp offers profits, which is entirely different. Rewards are generated out of thin air for completing tasks in game, profits are paid for by other players. Anet can regulate game rewards but it cant regulate profits, that is for the players to do.A matter of diction, it doesn’t change the fact that traiding post flippers get the most gold. And nearly everything can be bought with gold, even dungeonpaths. Any other currency is free for all and there is absolutely no skill required to farm the worldboss rotation. It doesn’t even stop you from flipping the traiding post.
Its not a matter of diction, its a completely different game mechanic.
But I mean gold as reward, so it’s indeed a matter of diction.
Gold as a reward (form tasks in the game) has nothing to do with the trading post because the trading post doesnt award rewards.
I wont discuss diction or semantics anymore. Your suggestion has been brought up several times in the past already and was discussed at length. I dont think that Anet sees that as a viable option, nevermind the implementation costs.
If you want to discuss more off topic about reward structures with the other people, go ahead. Unless you give valid proof that rich people are bad for the economy (which has been proven wrong several times in the past already) or make a better suggestion that leads to a better game experience for the mayority of the player base to justify its implemention costs, i wouldnt bother, though.
Your suggestion will NEVER be implemented.
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
(edited by Wanze.8410)
First of all you have the misconception that the tp offers rewards, which is not true.
The tp offers profits, which is entirely different. Rewards are generated out of thin air for completing tasks in game, profits are paid for by other players. Anet can regulate game rewards but it cant regulate profits, that is for the players to do.A matter of diction, it doesn’t change the fact that traiding post flippers get the most gold. And nearly everything can be bought with gold, even dungeonpaths. Any other currency is free for all and there is absolutely no skill required to farm the worldboss rotation. It doesn’t even stop you from flipping the traiding post.
Its not a matter of diction, its a completely different game mechanic.
But I mean gold as reward, so it’s indeed a matter of diction.
Gold as a reward (form tasks in the game) has nothing to do with the trading post because the trading post doesnt award rewards.
I wont discuss diction or semantics anymore. Your suggestion has been brought up several times in the past already and was discussed at length. I dont think that Anet sees that as a viable option, nevermind the implementation costs.
If you want to discuss more off topic about reward structures with the other people, go ahead. Unless you give valid proof that rich people are bad for the economy (which has been proven wrong several times in the past already) or make a better suggestion that leads to a better game experience for the mayority of the player base to justify its implemention costs, i wouldnt bother, though.
Your suggestion will NEVER be implemented.
I really don’t know why you fixate on that reward diction thingie but as also stated more than enough, an imbalanced gold spread can be very harmful for every economy.
Also, every time when I explain why traiding post flippers have no (great) positive effect on the economy, all just keep saying “you’re wrong because they’re good for the economy”, which simply isn’t an argument.
Sadly, Anet seems perfectly happy with this and that’s that.
All this talk of economies and bending it to suit your either viewpoint just gets silly. Let me get right down to this – why is it good for the game that the average, non-TP playing player has to pay more for their items (sold at a higher price by flippers – after all, they won’t sell it for a loss), instead of just getting to buy it at the price it should be? The only reason supply increases when prices rise is because flippers are offloading stock for profit, not because the regular player is more inclined to sell.
Long story short: the average player has to pay for; some people make easy gold; some idiots mess up their attempts at easy money and lose gold; and a small group of players sit on a pile of money and rare items that are off-limits to the rest of us.
P.S. Of course some things should be reserved for the best players, but give them to the best players instead of to people who can watch the TP all day and use multiple windows to buy up and dump faster than anyone playing properly could ever hope to.
But I can understand that shutting down all flipping in the game, like I have suggested, could be too harsh. Another idea would be to limit buy offers to be atleast 80% -85% of the price the lowest sell listing is currently. That however would also hit normal people who try to get an item as cheap as possible. Another idea would be to limit the total capacity of buy- and sell listings, both itemcount-wise and gold-wise. The exact limit would’ve to be determined, so that flipping isn’t as rewarding gold-wise but still possible.
Your first suggestion is too easily exploitable. I just put in a buy order for Dusk and then buy out all Dusks and relist one of them for triple the price. That would also greatly increase the value of the next buy order that can be listed. At that point I would have the only inflated listing and the highest buy order.
For examples sake:
First Dusk is 850g BO and 1000g SL. 10 are listed between 1000-1500g.
I put in ten buy orders for 851g and then buy the remaining 10 Dusks, relisting 1 at 3000g.
So people who want to buy a dusk either have to pay 3000g or make a new BO at 2400g (80%).
Propably nobody would buy my dusk at 3000g initially but look at the seller.
They have the choice to either sell to me for 851g or undercut me, they will propably to the latter. Casual players, who got a lucky drop, will propably wait it out until the price gets closer to equilibrium again. There even is a good chance that they dont even have the gold for the listing fee if they want to sell at 2000g.
Thats still far from a monopoly but it makes it way easier to manipulate prices because i can block new BO´s to be posted, unless they order for 2400g and slow down new supply entering the market from other players.
About limiting trade volume and value:
It would be impossible to establish those limits to have a meaningful impact that you desire.
The value has to be several hundred/thousands of gold otherwise you couldnt trade precursors or legendaries anymore. You cant really limit the sales per day because they are random, so you have to limit purchases. But if i am allowed to buy stuff for a thousand gold each day, i can still make 150g profit per day, even more, if i speculate and not flip.
Limiting volume would mostly hurt the casual player, who often are hoarders. They basically have to log in every day for a couple of weeks, if they want to clear out their collection tab to raise some funds. IT would also greatly reduce trade volume on the tp but a high trade volume (global economy) basically is a strength of the system because price equilibrium is reached faster the higher the velocity.
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
I really don’t know why you fixate on that reward diction thingie but as also stated more than enough, an imbalanced gold spread can be very harmful for every economy.
Also, every time when I explain why traiding post flippers have no (great) positive effect on the economy, all just keep saying “you’re wrong because they’re good for the economy”, which simply isn’t an argument.
Its not what I am saying but what John Smith said in earlier posts, here some quotes:
It’s possible I’ve missed it and I apologize if that’s true, but I haven’t seen any evidence or even a correct hypothesis that a group of the rich can negatively effect your gameplay experience. I think a clear set of ideas would help me understand and respond to the issue.
P.S. Don’t say luxury goods or I will refer you to the first rule of the tautology club.
Let’s stop discussing possible “solutions”. Before discussing a solution you must first prove a problem. I have yet to see any evidence internally or externally that there is a problem.
Speculation on player wealth is not evidence of a problem.
An anecdote is not evidence unless it demonstrates a systemic problem.
2. I know you said it already, but I’ll restate, that prices of high end goods aren’t being controlled.
3. The prices of high end goods are VERY close, if not exactly the same, to what they would be without any “TP Barons” wanting those items. There’s too much velocity for individual rich people to influence the supply/demand equation all that much, which is the only control they have if they aren’t manipulating prices.
Flippers increase liquidity and bring prices closer to equilibrium, almost always lowering prices and providing preferences to other players. I see no reason why anyone would want to stop that.
Tin Foil [HATS]-Hardcore BLTC-PvP Guild
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.
Bloin – Running around, tagging Keeps, getting whack on Scoobie Snacks.