Guild Wars 2

NoTrigger.8396:

Naetell.3815:

*
*What’s wrong with Toughness and Vitality? Dead people don’t deal damage, right?
Technically true, but there’s the dodge mechanic.
Look at the dodge button like this: It is a 2x total invulnerability for 1 second button on a low cooldown.
Add to this the fact that most PvE enemies in the game have few, well-telegraphed, hard-hitting attacks, and suddenly that dodge button gives you the ability to emerge unscathed from virtually any battle.
In short: toughness and vitality do not make you live longer if you dodge everything anyway, but they will take the spot of a stat that does make you deal more damage.

tl:dr

punish good players who know when to dodge, when to use aegis, when to use other active defense and reward players who need defensive gear to survive because whatever the reason is.

Thank you for your contribution, but I fail to see where I said any of that.

NoTrigger.8396:

Naetell.3815:

Support:
Healing Power, Boon Duration.

again people forget that the following things are “support” but not bound to stats:
aegis, wall of reflection, combo fields, feedback, blast finisher, vulnerability, protection, warrior banners, spotter frostspirit, CC skills, might, fury, blinds, quickness, swiftness and so on.

gw2 has a unique combat system that requires the player to be skilled (with the right content). dont take it away.

using the right skill at the right time is more difficult to do than using stats to give you a bigger error tolerance.

Which has nothing to do with my post at all, nor did I forget. At no point do I mention reducing the need to use the right skill at the right time, or diminish it in any way. Any removal or addition of stats would not change that paradigm in any way.

Don’t tilt at windmills.

NoTrigger.8396:

Lian Olsam.9541:

Illuminerdi.9153:

One thing I’d really like to see for both Raids and the game as a whole would be the addition of a “gearset” UI for players to quickly/easily swap gear sets and trait specs (skillbar sets would be nice too)

Raids seems like they will necessitate more defined “roles” for players – not necessarily healer/tank/DPS in the strictest sense, but I’d hate to see raids degenerate into nothing more than 15 zerkers all bum-rushing the bosses.

I have a set of Cleric Exotics + Hammer that I use on my Warrior during Tequatl fights, it helps me keep other players in the fight and the hammer keeps mobs back/stunned when I’m reviving someone. I call it my “Combat Medic” build. I’m not a healer – I’m still swinging away at Teq in between revives, but when I see players go down I rush over and get them back up in 1/2 the time it normally takes me.

I would really love a way to extend this sort of “flexibility” to raids. Lots of Eles/Guards? I’ll go full zerk and pile on the dps. Tons of heavy hitters but not a lot of heals? Swap to my Cleric build and get players back on their feet ASAP.

i agree with you, raids should be the right time to make gw2 complete and go through the full zerk, and make this game more than an hack and slash, i’d like to use all potential of my characters, i have 6 lvl 80 and 5 of them is full zerk and the other one i will play just with relaxed party for make something different…. we can create raids, living story etc etc, but if the only purpose i have will be just to do max dps and forget all the other possibility will be boring really fast

and here we go.
what you guys have to understand is support, control etc doesnt come from the stats of your gear in gw2. it comes from weapons, traits and utlity skills.

if you believe optimised berserker PvE builds are just dps and nothing else, what about if you pay a little bit more attention to see nearly every build sacrifices dps for more support?
just dps just dps just dps, we read it every single day from people who do not understand the combat system in gw2. it is not true.

you can have someone in your party with healing gear, or you can have 5 berserker people who know what they are doing and blast water fields. in the end, option 2 is more difficult to do and comes with the reward that you can deal more dps at the same time.

good play should be rewarded, not punished.

Naetell.3815:

*
*What’s wrong with Toughness and Vitality? Dead people don’t deal damage, right?
Technically true, but there’s the dodge mechanic.
Look at the dodge button like this: It is a 2x total invulnerability for 1 second button on a low cooldown.
Add to this the fact that most PvE enemies in the game have few, well-telegraphed, hard-hitting attacks, and suddenly that dodge button gives you the ability to emerge unscathed from virtually any battle.
In short: toughness and vitality do not make you live longer if you dodge everything anyway, but they will take the spot of a stat that does make you deal more damage.

tl:dr

punish good players who know when to dodge, when to use aegis, when to use other active defense and reward players who need defensive gear to survive because whatever the reason is.

Naetell.3815:

Support:
Healing Power, Boon Duration.

again people forget that the following things are *support" but not bound to stats:
aegis, wall of reflection, combo fields, feedback, blast finisher, vulnerability, protection, warrior banners, spotter frostspirit, CC skills, might, fury, blinds, quickness, swiftness and so on.

gw2 has a unique combat system that requires the player to be skilled (with the right content). dont take it away.

using the right skill at the right time is more difficult to do than using stats to give you a bigger error tolerance.

imho have less options isnt a reward but punishment, i’d like to have the chance to choise what can i play, today i wanna be zerk i play zerk, tomorrow i wanna support then i’ll go support, the day after i wanna use my conditiomancer, then i go conditions… have a choice is EVER better than doesent have it… options make game more deep and funny…
onestly after 2 years have another content with zerk only isn’t really a news, but gain a new kind of gameplay should be like have a real fresh air, and will make happy everyone, because man, if u wanna keep play zerk u can, and ppl like me would like to change will be able to…

Lian Olsam.9541:

imho have less options isnt a reward but punishment, i’d like to have the chance to choise what can i play, today i wanna be zerk i play zerk, tomorrow i wanna support then i’ll go support, the day after i wanna use my conditiomancer, then i go conditions… have a choice is EVER better than doesent have it… options make game more deep and funny…
onestly after 2 years have another content with zerk only isn’t really a news, but gain a new kind of gameplay should be like have a real fresh air, and will make happy everyone, because man, if u wanna keep play zerk u can, and ppl like me would like to change will be able to…

You can still complete the content with any gear you want. Don’t need to exaggerate non-existant issues to prove your point.
As others said above you should have realized in the past two years that gear is only affects two things.
1. Damage type (power vs. condi).
2. Selfishness (personal defense vs. damage output).

Control and support comes from every other source like skills and traits.
Content should be able to finished both in full offensive builds (aka “zerkers”) and in full defensive ones and ofc everything in between IF the group is coordinated enough.

Lian Olsam.9541:

imho have less options isnt a reward but punishment, i’d like to have the chance to choise what can i play, today i wanna be zerk i play zerk, tomorrow i wanna support then i’ll go support, the day after i wanna use my conditiomancer, then i go conditions… have a choice is EVER better than doesent have it… options make game more deep and funny…
onestly after 2 years have another content with zerk only isn’t really a news, but gain a new kind of gameplay should be like have a real fresh air, and will make happy everyone, because man, if u wanna keep play zerk u can, and ppl like me would like to change will be able to…

every “option” works in this game already.
see here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VhmwLwvrM

i would also like to link you guys the following video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRgZYr-yIxs&list=UU2XVi6QB_uuPFaqq5vzMvAw

maybe you will understand how well a DPS guardian for example supports his party after watching this video.

I’ve been thinking about this since hearing that instanced raids might become a thing in GW2, so I figured I might as well chip in. There are a fair few things I’d like to comment on, so apologies for the wall of text and not quite following the proposal format. Also, apologies if any of my points were made by ninjas while I was writing.

General:

I think that any instanced raiding options should be not unlike a sort of ‘SPvE’, with characters being functionally true level 80s with all core skills and traits unlocked on stepping inside a raid instance, raid zone, or raid hub. Gear behaves as unprefixed level 80 exotics, and characters create their build using special raid amulets, runes, and sigils (there could, perhaps, be some unique prefixes for raids, and a form of progression from less-aggressive to more-aggressive prefixes).

Accessibility:

I think the best way to control access to the raids proper would be with a series of mini-raids that serve as a vehicle for introducing/reintroducing the core concepts that raiders need to be aware of and have some idea of how to deal with. If a player is skilled enough to raid, and wants a raidlike experience, I don’t see why there should be any barriers to them getting in, even if they only bought the game half an hour beforehand.

This is also a reason I believe an SPvE system would be a good idea — while there is a lot of fun to be had going out into the world to earn skill points and traits, if I’m in the mood for raiding, I don’t want to be forced into doing that.

I also believe that these raids should be accessible to all, not limited to members of a guild.

Tanking:

The game’s ‘organic’ tanking model is somewhat unique compared to other MMOs, and I think raids should make more use of it, with fights frequently requiring that some sort of tanking happens.

We’ve already seen fights that require tanking as part of the twisted marionette — one regulator warden had frontal invulnerability, and another had to be lured over its own mines before it could be damaged.

For larger-scale boss fights, enemies could require multiple players to tank them — a dragon champion might take flight and bombard the group from the air, unless it is constantly harassed with melee attacks from every direction. But closing to melee exposes a player to the boss’ own suite of frequent melee cleaves (which it can launch in any direction), meaning that you can’t stay in that position for long, and groups will constantly have to rotate players between melee and ranged in order to survive.

hybrid.5027:

• It should be impossible to avoid all damage and bosses should liberally apply conditions such as immobilize, weakness, vulnerability, blind, chill and cripple. Players should have to feel like they need to save dodges for the big crushing attacks. Regen, healing, aegis, etc. (as well as condi removal) should be required to stay alive between dodges.

This isn’t self-evidentally good, you have to explain why this is something we should want, not just declare you want it. I’m not against the concept of bosses that do condition overload, but you should be a bit more honest that what you’re trying to do is encourage use of tanky gear for survival.

I’m ambivalent about the attacks necessarily applying conditions, but I like the idea of not being able to avoid all attacks (or the cost of doing so would be too costly). I envision this as the various attacks dealing different damage (not all of them should be one-shots) and they come at you more frequently than you are able to dodge (plus some blocks?). This would require you to know which attacks you must dodge and which ones you would rather take the damage and heal afterward.

Is this necessary? Probably not, but it would provide another concern to handle during the fights.

I’ve seen a couple of comments in the level-requirement discussion about the issue of bringing along underpowered members. I do think that is on the raid organizers, as they get to decide who to invite. What concerns me in it is the sentiment that raids won’t want inexperienced raiders regardless of power levels.

I understand this is a common part of the raiding mindset. I raided for several years in WoW, and my very nice, friendly guild still had a “progression team” that one had to be qualified for by gear, skill, and reliability. But there’s a catch-22 in there, if only experienced applicants are welcome, how exactly do they get that experience?

So I hope there is some way to do this content Tyria-style, in the cooperative, inclusive manner that goes to the core of the game. Some of the posters have posited an sPvP sort of normalizing. I can see the potential in that but would definitely want not only a gear-swap template if we’re talking raid-specific gear but a “holding” section of the hero panel for the alternate set, bag space being at a premium.

Donari.5237:

I’ve seen a couple of comments in the level-requirement discussion about the issue of bringing along underpowered members. I do think that is on the raid organizers, as they get to decide who to invite. What concerns me in it is the sentiment that raids won’t want inexperienced raiders regardless of power levels.

I understand this is a common part of the raiding mindset. I raided for several years in WoW, and my very nice, friendly guild still had a “progression team” that one had to be qualified for by gear, skill, and reliability. But there’s a catch-22 in there, if only experienced applicants are welcome, how exactly do they get that experience?

So I hope there is some way to do this content Tyria-style, in the cooperative, inclusive manner that goes to the core of the game. Some of the posters have posited an sPvP sort of normalizing. I can see the potential in that but would definitely want not only a gear-swap template if we’re talking raid-specific gear but a “holding” section of the hero panel for the alternate set, bag space being at a premium.

Bag space would not be a problem once full legendary gear is an option. A template swap for all your legendaries would be nice then though.

Donari.5237:

I’ve seen a couple of comments in the level-requirement discussion about the issue of bringing along underpowered members. I do think that is on the raid organizers, as they get to decide who to invite. What concerns me in it is the sentiment that raids won’t want inexperienced raiders regardless of power levels.

I understand this is a common part of the raiding mindset. I raided for several years in WoW, and my very nice, friendly guild still had a “progression team” that one had to be qualified for by gear, skill, and reliability. But there’s a catch-22 in there, if only experienced applicants are welcome, how exactly do they get that experience?

So I hope there is some way to do this content Tyria-style, in the cooperative, inclusive manner that goes to the core of the game. Some of the posters have posited an sPvP sort of normalizing. I can see the potential in that but would definitely want not only a gear-swap template if we’re talking raid-specific gear but a “holding” section of the hero panel for the alternate set, bag space being at a premium.

Thats an issue up to the guild/group organisers. Pretty sure its out of the scope of what the developers can do. There will always be people who have higher standards and exclude players. And some people will feel they cant ever meet those standards because they arent given the chance. Its up to players to work past those issues by taking the initiative themselves. You cant solve a problem caused by player/organiser attitude. So i feel its a pretty redundant issue and is not worth discussing in this thread.

As I have no legendaries, and just 3 pieces of ascended collected for looks, not stats, somehow I think bag space will be a problem for me for a long time to come in that regard.

Nor am I the only interested raider who isn’t in full BiS. Please let’s not go anywhere near required gear checks to get into a raid.

@ dalanor @notrigger
i’ll try to explain better (sorry but english isnt my language)
i know there is skills and trait will support party and for this things doesent care stats u r running, what i’d like to say is more “focus” on role is missing in this game
i dont wanna change content we have, but i’d like to feel raid really different from the rest of the game, and i’d like to “need” a full supportive guys, not only with some skills/trait, for make this game more complete, and btw actually for the condition stacking system u still cant play conditions…
my purpose is to “need” also different stat combo and more supportive builds… dps should be still able to do his job, but other ppl can focus his gameplay to other purpose than dps or some aegis/reflections skills

ps: about the video, not everyone play with organized group try to play with pugs and let me know your experience :p

Donari.5237:

As I have no legendaries, and just 3 pieces of ascended collected for looks, not stats, somehow I think bag space will be a problem for me for a long time to come in that regard.

Nor am I the only interested raider who isn’t in full BiS. Please let’s not go anywhere near required gear checks to get into a raid.

Then like the rest of us, the only option is farming more gold for bag slots.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Crystal Reid.2481:

I bolded a section of this that I wanted to inquire about. Do you think the fact the game has been live for over 2 years now change your thoughts on this? This is definitely a common occurrence with new MMO’s that launch with raiding, but what about a game that didn’t launch with raiding? Is there still an issue of players “rushing to 80” when a large percentage of the player base already has at least one 80? Thoughts?

I think it’s important to note that a lot of players like playing with their alts. Even though they might have 7 lv.80, they might want to play with their lv.53 elementalist. It’s a chore to level the 8th character to max. level when the only thing you want to do with him is raid.

Why not take the sPvP approach? Normalize the gear and level and you have everyone on the same level to beat a well balanced challenge.

You are also forgetting sigils, consumables, runes and rune sets. You could scale all those up but then you would end up with a situation where not being lv80 would be better or at least cheaper.

I certainly wouldn’t mind having the sPvP system everywhere but I suspect the devs aren’t willing to take it that far.

Donari.5237:

As I have no legendaries, and just 3 pieces of ascended collected for looks, not stats, somehow I think bag space will be a problem for me for a long time to come in that regard.

Nor am I the only interested raider who isn’t in full BiS. Please let’s not go anywhere near required gear checks to get into a raid.

Gear checks and nitpickers drove me away from WoW. And as my earlier message said, I was a very dedicated (and I think good) raider.

I loved raiding — when it was about friends defeating challenges. When it became about “perfect” numbers, swapping people per boss, greed, and elitism, I left.

Human foibles, indeed. Some of those can be eliminated by design, tho.

EDIT: We need some way to prevent “speed runs”, which ruined 5-man dungeons for alot of people. Moving quickly an efficiently is great; racing through content driven by rewards is no fun for many.

Sytherek.7689:

EDIT: We need some way to prevent “speed runs”, which ruined 5-man dungeons for alot of people. Moving quickly an efficiently is great; racing through content driven by rewards is no fun for many.

preventing something that you personally dont like, but others may enjoy is never a good thing.

Khisanth.2948:

I certainly wouldn’t mind having the sPvP system everywhere but I suspect the devs aren’t willing to take it that far.

This is true
There could be some artifact that you can interact with in the Raid entrace and let you ‘’operate a fixxed’ – premade character
and a ‘’tick box ’’ that will ask you you to choose 1 of the 20 fixxed stats combiantions to use …. for 15 silver (until you leave the Raids) . And you get less money from the Raid fi you are less than 80 lvl , when you oparate the premade ……

But we dont know , how many ppl will use the Raid vs the production cost is needed

Sytherek.7689:

EDIT: We need some way to prevent “speed runs”, which ruined 5-man dungeons for alot of people. Moving quickly an efficiently is great; racing through content driven by rewards is no fun for many.

Speed runs are not only fine, they’re actually quite a good thing to have. They add re-playability to the content, and can foster healthy inter-community competition. Ontop of that, they push people to improve themselves and dig deep into how GW2 works. Speedruns give rise to some of our most dedicated GW2 players.

If anything (and I’m not one to tell people what they’re allowed to enjoy in a game), what needs looking at is the so-called “zerker meta” that is anchored in speed-runs. In other words, we need to look at the cause, not the symptom, and improve gameplay in such a way that other roles are valuable at high levels of play.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

I am up to date. The discussion flow and focus is excellent.

I am super happy at how mature and productive everyone is being. Keep it up.

Chris

Well maybe becouse gw2 rly needs raids and people waited 2 years for this opportunity.

Arewn.2368:

Sytherek.7689:

EDIT: We need some way to prevent “speed runs”, which ruined 5-man dungeons for alot of people. Moving quickly an efficiently is great; racing through content driven by rewards is no fun for many.

Speed runs are not only fine, they’re actually quite a good thing to have. They add re-playability to the content, and can foster healthy inter-community competition. Ontop of that, they push people to improve themselves and dig deep into how GW2 works. Speedruns give rise to some of our most dedicated GW2 players.

If anything (and I’m not one to tell people what they’re allowed to enjoy in a game), what needs looking at is the so-called “zerker meta” that is anchored in speed-runs. In other words, we need to look at the cause, not the symptom, and improve gameplay in such a way that other roles are valuable at high levels of play.

The cause of the “zerker meta” how you call it is good players who will always use the most efficient and optimal stuff for their skill level.
these players exist in every game and you cannot prevent that. there is actually no problem to be honest.

What will happen if we ever see challenging raid content, alot of people wont be using “zerker” gear first. only the best will be using it. as soon as players will be more familiar with the encounters, they will eventually start using berserker gear because they gathered enough information and knowledge.

“Roles” is everyone. Everyone can fulfill every role as needed, no matter what gear you are wearing, with the difference, that some professions excel at something special. this is gw2. this is the gw2 combat system. this is unique about this game.

If its the elementalist who is providing fire fields. fury and blast finishers, if its the guardian and mesmer who protect the party via reflections and absorb skills, if its the engineer who provides top vuln stacking…… it doesnt really matter.
we have roles. the roles are what your profession excels at, not what gear you are wearing.

Tbh there is more important stuff to discuss in this topic than the typical stack, zerk, only dps discussion started by people who do not understand the bigger picture.

NoTrigger.8396:

there is actually no problem to be honest.

NoTrigger.8396:

alot of people wont be using “zerker” gear first. only the best will be using it.

You don’t consider that a problem? It’s a rather huge game design flaw for an RPG, doubly so for an MMO.

NoTrigger.8396:

“Roles” is everyone. Everyone can fulfill every role as needed, no matter what gear you are wearing, with the difference, that some professions excel at something special. this is gw2. this is the gw2 combat system. this is unique about this game.

Yes, you could even do it naked and traitless.
Everyone can do every role all the time is not good game design, and not something raids should be balanced around.

A less than optimal solution cannot be an equal by definition.

NoTrigger.8396:

If its the elementalist who is providing fire fields. fury and blast finishers, if its the guardian and mesmer who protect the party via reflections and absorb skills, if its the engineer who provides top vuln stacking…… it doesnt really matter.
we have roles. the roles are what your profession excels at, not what gear you are wearing.

And we’re back to World of Warcraft. It’s your choice of profession at lvl 1 that determines your role, not your choices in the game.
Actually, in WoW you can still pick between two to three roles after picking your class these days. Why should anyone be satisfied with no choice?

NoTrigger.8396:

Tbh there is more important stuff to discuss in this topic than the typical stack, zerk, only dps discussion started by people who do not understand the bigger picture.

Indeed, but it seems some people need to be explained that this shouldn’t be a part of raid design, it would belong in a different CDI altogether.
Still, it isn’t uncommon to see even in other games. DPS tends to be a sore spot for many.

RE: Lower level players and raids

Given that raids are a future thing, and likely will have some ties to the Living World, they are almost certain to be level 80 and above things.
Even the current Living World Season requires a level 80 character.

Illuminerdi.9153:

Roybe.5896:

Again, design is important, but for the majority that play this type of content, 1 guaranteed yellow drop, a handful of blues and greens, and extreme RNG drops for uber items off the main boss, will not provide a reward system worthy of their time.

Also agreed – raids are going to need guaranteed methods of acquiring rewards that cannot be gotten elsewhere, or they will go unplayed because even if the RNG rewards are “larger” they will not be as fast a dungeon farming is.

The raids, if they are implemented, would indeed need a reward system that is equivalent to time and effort investment. It should not however be visibly more rewarding than other forms of content (again, relatively to time and effort invested). Running raids should definitely not be less rewarding, that running dungeons. It shouldn’t be more rewarding either – or at least the differences should not be huge. So, rewards from, for example, 2 hours of raiding should not be higher that, say, ~4 hours of any other alternate content. And if raids are to offer unique rewards, then any other alternate content should offer equivalent unique rewards as well (though personally i think that there should be nothing in this game that would be available through less than at least two alternate methods – not including TP).

Raids shoule never be a place people automatically think of first when asked about best rewarding content. No content should ever be able to achieve such position.
Yeah, granted, some parts of the game will always be more rewarding than others, because true balance is simply impossible. No conscious design decision should however single out a single gameplay mode for this role, and efforts should always be made to keep those differences to minimum.

But regardless of what you do, more RNG boxes will kill raids dead in seconds. The RNG lottery just creates too long of a gap between “Ascended” and “Legendary”, I think the best solution is to add incremental steps between, so that the guaranteed rewards keep players feeling like they’re progressing forward, rather than just hoping today’s the day they hit the jackpot.

Generally, a reward system with consistent progress, maybe supported with secondary RNG (or at worst a RNG reward system with a failsafe guaranteed progress track) is better than a pure low chance RNG. That will be as true for Raids, as it is for most other already preexisting reward systems. If a better system were to be introduced for raids, i’d hope it would also mean changes for the rest of the game.

Khisanth.2948:

You are also forgetting sigils, consumables, runes and rune sets. You could scale all those up but then you would end up with a situation where not being lv80 would be better or at least cheaper.

I certainly wouldn’t mind having the sPvP system everywhere but I suspect the devs aren’t willing to take it that far.

well I didn’t; basically my suggestion is a copy of the sPvP as it is now. You can choose sigils from a sigil-database which unlocks all of them for you (just like in sPvP), you can’t use consumables (just like in sPvP),…

no scaling – everyone is equal

Naetell.3815:

And we’re back to World of Warcraft. It’s your choice of profession at lvl 1 that determines your role, not your choices in the game.
Actually, in WoW you can still pick between two to three roles after picking your class these days. Why should anyone be satisfied with no choice?

lets say you are an elementalist. do you know that you have a choice between being an offensive supporter or defensive supporter while using berserker gear?
being a supporter and dealing damage at the same time is even better than a dedicated role.
and all you have to do is using a different attunement! WOW thats magic, isnt it?

do you know that your dragons tooth is not only a damage spell but also a support spell at the same time, because it will support your party when you are using it to trigger combo fields?

one moment you stack 25 might and 1 min fury for your party and only one second later you are suddenly a healer because you use a water field and blast it with all of your blast finishers. insanely cool, right?
and on top of that its something you cannot do in other games. amazing.

do you know that you can also provide one of the most powerful CC skills in the game, called icebow 5?

this is too long to explain, but if you think gear defines your role, then you either dont understand the gw2 combat system, refuse to understand the combat system, or you are simply in the wrong game.

Naetell.3815:

NoTrigger.8396:

there is actually no problem to be honest.

NoTrigger.8396:

alot of people wont be using “zerker” gear first. only the best will be using it.

You don’t consider that a problem? It’s a rather huge game design flaw for an RPG, doubly so for an MMO.

its not a huge game design flaw, its a huge flaw in your chain of thought.

nope. i dont consider that a problem. when im good at the game, mechanically skilled, good at analyzing situations and learning from them, then i dont need defensive gear to survive, because the tools to survive and get the most out of my profession and role are my like-minded guild mates, my brain and an item you cannot buy on the trading post, called skill.

Two things I don’t think anyone in this thread disagrees with as key parts of GW2 raiding – Cooperation, and Coordination. Take note, they are not the same.

So, we should look into how to utilize the elements in the game that support these two values.

For Cooperation, we have combo fields – to expand upon their mechanics in raids, you could introduce unique combo fields – say, a raid with a boss fight against Bloody Prince Thorn, where the Prince is protected by a stacking buff. Players could use glaze guns to leave Candy Corn Glaze combo fields, and combo effects on the field would produce effects to remove the stacks. Projectile finisher removes one stack, whirl sends out projectiles that remove one stack each, leap gives you an aura that makes your attacks remove stacks (with an internal cooldown) and blast gives the aura to everyone nearby. A simple mechanic like this would make cooperation essential without making things overly complicated. Similarly, other existing cooperation mechanics should be utilized to their fullest.

Coordination is a harder one – if done wrong, a coordination challenge can be extremely grating and may slow down gameplay needlessly. However, when done right, they are extremely rewarding in themselves. I’d suggest looking at the mechanics of the guild puzzles – adapting the same concept to combat situations may lead to tricky, yet fun battles. For an example, picking up a bundle called “Shiniest Shiny” would cause a huge swarm of Skritt to chase after the player, while Beast of Horrification emerges. At 50% health, the Beast of Horrification jumps to the skritt and eats them all to restore health – however, in the room there is a poison pool, which gives the skritt a buff when running through that makes the Beast of Horrification take damage when eating the skritt instead.

Third thing that I personally find important is storytelling. If raids have fail conditions that will cause all progress on that raid to wipe, that allows powerful storytelling moments and dramatic gameplay. For an example, the dreaded escort mission. Let’s present this through an example straight away – Logan Thackeray is wounded, and must be escorted to safety. However, while you have to push through enemy groups in front of you, increasingly tough enemies chase you from behind, faster than Logan can run. If the group would simply opt to kill them as they come, they would most likely eventually be overwhelmed, Logan be killed and raid failed. However, if a small detachment would stay behind to distract and stall the pursuers, the main force could push through front and get to safety. Those who would stay behind would quite surely be defeated, but could buy enough time for the main group to move on. After reaching the goal, a new waypoint would open for the raid group to regroup. Because of the risk, the sense of imminent danger would be heightened, and the story would be delivered much more effectively than what we currently see in dungeons.

Most importantly, unfun mechanics are not fun. Avoid those at all costs.

@Naetell: I like the direction, taking a look on our stats on gear.

DPS:
Power, Precision, Ferocity, Condition Damage, Condition Duration

Control:
Condition Duration, vitality, Toughness

Support:
Healing Power, Boon Duration.

Basically our system means: if you want to do absolutely the most damage, you have no choice but choosing berserker on each piece of armor.

What if armor-design would take a slightly different approach? What if a certain slot only can offer some specific stats?

Chestarmor: only possible combinations with Toughness, Vitality, Healing Power, Boon Duration
Legarmor: only possible combinations with Toughness, Healing Power, Boon Duration, Ferocity
Gloves: only possible combinations with Power, Precision, Condition Damage, Toughness
Boots: only possible combinations with Power, Ferocity, Condition Duration, Condition Damage
Shoulderarmor: only possible combinations with Boon Duration, Condition Duration, Precision

etc.

This way people really would have to think about their build. A full damage build looks at the available chestarmor-combinations and has to decide between:

• Toughness, Vitality, Healing Power
• Healing Power, Boon Duration, Vitality
• Toughness, Boon Duration, Healing Power
  …
  none of those has huge effects on damage. Now that would be a choice.

(note: these are just spontaneous examples, I’m sure anyone of you could come up with better ones, but I think you get the core of my idea)
(note2: there could be new slot-specific stats as well, e.g. boots can offer a 5% Speed boost, gloves can offer small aoe’s for any attack,…)

NoTrigger.8396:

Sytherek.7689:

EDIT: We need some way to prevent “speed runs”, which ruined 5-man dungeons for alot of people. Moving quickly an efficiently is great; racing through content driven by rewards is no fun for many.

preventing something that you personally dont like, but others may enjoy is never a good thing.

Speed runs are the only PUGs available 90% of the time. I have no problems with speed runs; I have a problem with content being locked behind one way of playing.

Naetell.3815:

RE: Lower level players and raids

Given that raids are a future thing, and likely will have some ties to the Living World, they are almost certain to be level 80 and above things.
Even the current Living World Season requires a level 80 character.

And what about new players? A steady influx of new players makes for a healthy game.

Sytherek.7689:

NoTrigger.8396:

Sytherek.7689:

EDIT: We need some way to prevent “speed runs”, which ruined 5-man dungeons for alot of people. Moving quickly an efficiently is great; racing through content driven by rewards is no fun for many.

preventing something that you personally dont like, but others may enjoy is never a good thing.

Speed runs are the only PUGs available 90% of the time. I have no problems with speed runs; I have a problem with content being locked behind one way of playing.

you can always make your own group and use your personal way of playing and advertise the party like that?

Arewn.2368:

Sytherek.7689:

EDIT: We need some way to prevent “speed runs”, which ruined 5-man dungeons for alot of people. Moving quickly an efficiently is great; racing through content driven by rewards is no fun for many.

Speed runs are not only fine, they’re actually quite a good thing to have. They add re-playability to the content, and can foster healthy inter-community competition. Ontop of that, they push people to improve themselves and dig deep into how GW2 works. Speedruns give rise to some of our most dedicated GW2 players.

If anything (and I’m not one to tell people what they’re allowed to enjoy in a game), what needs looking at is the so-called “zerker meta” that is anchored in speed-runs. In other words, we need to look at the cause, not the symptom, and improve gameplay in such a way that other roles are valuable at high levels of play.

I have no problem with people finding “optimal” gear or playstyles.

I have a problem with a game that caters to group-think. What’s the point in a game with diverse stats and gear, where everyone runs the same build? Why not make all characters identical — same stats, same gear, same skills --- except for looks?

Again, what is the point of an RPG if the designers make one way of playing “optimal”?

The GW2 meta is boring and stale. Raids should not require cookie-cutter builds.

Also, one point i forgot to address before.

Crystal Reid.2481:

cesmode.4257:

Hi, I mentioned this in my first post a few moments ago. I could be out of date as well as this mind set that we were given early on…but isn’t the entire game ‘endgame’ ? Hop in, do whatever you want to do. No pressure, nada. Take your time, the whole thing is your oyster. When you start creating level 80 content only, ala raids, you segregate the playerbase much like other games where its then a rush to max level to do the raids. All of the gorgeous 1-80 content you have in this game becomes completely trivial and a stepping stone to the real game. You might as well just allow people to boost to 80 via potions or something and skip leveling all together because it becomes absolutely meaningless. A meaningless time sink. I didnt need 80 levels to learn my class. Maybe less than two dozen and I had it down. The rest was just enjoyment because the 1-80 content was nice. I leveled through it without any pressure. Put max level content in the game, and we will feel rushed to get to the real stuff. Its human nature.

For this reason, I do not think raids belong in GW2. But if they are to be implemented, I do have suggestions which I have shared

I bolded a section of this that I wanted to inquire about. Do you think the fact the game has been live for over 2 years now change your thoughts on this? This is definitely a common occurrence with new MMO’s that launch with raiding, but what about a game that didn’t launch with raiding? Is there still an issue of players “rushing to 80” when a large percentage of the player base already has at least one 80? Thoughts?

Yes and no. Yes, there is an issue, and no, it’s not directly tied to the 1-79 vs 80 lvl distinction. The issue lies in making raids The Content That Matters. The Content For Real Players. If you look closely at this thread, you will see the preference of the many raid supporters to make raids heavily exclusive. You need to be level 80. You need to have perfect gear (preferably berserker, because if “you are good at the game” you don’t need lesser stat sets :P). You need to have skills in top x% of the players… some other methods of restricting access were also mentioned. Only those that pass that threshold deserve to play the content, and only those that can pass that content deserve to be rewarded.

Sounds reasonable, at first – until you start to think about the unspoken corollary. One that says, that Raids are The Content That Matters, and everything else is a content that doesn’t.

If only level 80 players are allowed to play the content that matters, it means that levels 1-79 do not matter, and that content for those levels do not matter as well. Or at least matters less. That every content that is not so restrictive is somehow lesser. That is quite a powerful message (even if it isn’t true – perception is quite often more important than reality).
(it’s the same reason why you have to be very careful with using the “endgame” label – it also sends a message that triggers lot of preconceptions tied to it)

With dungeons you managed to avoid that issue completely – yes, there were some level 80 ones, but they were just a end step in a ladder that started much earlier. Even if some of those dungeons weren’t really that well balanced for lower levels (those for which they were supposedly designed), the mere fact that they were labeled as such was a message about their inclusivity.

1. <b>LVL 80 is not good to be the lvl set forever i mean i like if the cap is changed and also after having the same items for 10 years down the road whit no progression is also dumb for me </b>

NoTrigger.8396:

Sytherek.7689:

NoTrigger.8396:

Sytherek.7689:

EDIT: We need some way to prevent “speed runs”, which ruined 5-man dungeons for alot of people. Moving quickly an efficiently is great; racing through content driven by rewards is no fun for many.

preventing something that you personally dont like, but others may enjoy is never a good thing.

Speed runs are the only PUGs available 90% of the time. I have no problems with speed runs; I have a problem with content being locked behind one way of playing.

you can always make your own group and use your personal way of playing and advertise the party like that?

In a game with a lousy LFG tool? They build a solid LFG tool for raids, I’ll make groups. I was a successful raider leader for years in WoW.

Why don’t I join a big raiding guild? Been there, done that, hate seeing stupid egos clash in guild chat and watching people fight over the guild bank. I’m not interested in petty politics in a game; I’m here to relax and have fun.

No thanks, I can have fun without the aggravation.

Whats is better for the loot drop ?

a) RNG to get the super duper clool armor from the end boss ?
b) The boss drops tokens , so grind 10 times that hard boss to get the item + RNG as alternative ?
c) Try to kill the whole Raid with less than 10 wipes and you are guarandeed to get it (otherwise reset the whole istance and do it from the start) + RNG as alternative ?

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Whats is better for the loot drop ?

a) RNG to get the super duper clool armor from the end boss ?
b) The boss drops tokens , so grind 10 times that hard boss to get the item + RNG as alternative ?
c) Try to kill the whole Raid with less than 10 wipes and you are guarandeed to get it (otherwise reset the whole istance and do it from the start) + RNG as alternative ?

d) guaranteed skin set drop from every boss and something else for visual progression of your skin?

Gele.2048:

1. <b>LVL 80 is not good to be the lvl set forever i mean i like if the cap is changed and also after having the same items for 10 years down the road whit no progression is also dumb for me </b>

No. No, it’s not.

Gear grind and constant leveling is not the only, or even best, way to design a game. GW2 was specifically marketed as not doing that, and not having to deal with a gear grind or raised level caps was one of the big reasons behind my purchase. I probably would stop playing if I thought that was going to change, because there are tons of games that will respect my time and effort in a way that gear grinds and raising level caps doesn’t.

OT:
I’ve always been very put off by typical MMO raids, but reading this thread has made me very happy. People see to be thinking carefully about how to do inclusive GW2-style raids where the emphasis is on playing together (vs. grinding for BiS gear or bragging rights). I’ve seen things described here that would make me interested in raiding, like having mini tutorials raids to introduce concepts (can we apply this to starter zones and get a tutorial for combos too?) and having stories built around player choices (like needing to coordinate who dies to hold off the hoards while an escorted NPC gets away, that was a good post).

I would really like to play with a large group of friends or guildmates to go through interesting stories and fun gameplay. I like playing with people, but I really can’t stand group grinds or angry elitists. I think the Labyrinth is a nice starting point for larger group content. It’s dangerous enough to be hard in spots even for large groups, but rewarding both in terms of fun play and drops.

As for raid design, focusing on letting all classes and playstyles shine would be great. In a group of 10+ there’s going to be someone from most classes, so having ways for each class to contribute something extra (not requiring all classes, but letting a diverse group do better) would be a nice way to combat players’ focus on optimal classes. Please, please stop locking drops behind punishing RNG. A token system, even if it was a different system per raid, would be better than rare RNG (although I’d prefer it if the tokens worked across different raids, like guild commendations instead of dungeon tokens).

Also – and I thought this went without saying but the trait system shows that it needs to be said – making players repeat long content is bad. Locking content behind long gold or time gates is bad. Fun comes from lots of sources, but one thing it doesn’t come from is needing an external checklist to get the desired result. Please make sure to communicate in-game the choices players have and the impact of those choices.

Sytherek.7689:

Donari.5237:

As I have no legendaries, and just 3 pieces of ascended collected for looks, not stats, somehow I think bag space will be a problem for me for a long time to come in that regard.

Nor am I the only interested raider who isn’t in full BiS. Please let’s not go anywhere near required gear checks to get into a raid.

Gear checks and nitpickers drove me away from WoW. And as my earlier message said, I was a very dedicated (and I think good) raider.

I loved raiding — when it was about friends defeating challenges. When it became about “perfect” numbers, swapping people per boss, greed, and elitism, I left.

Human foibles, indeed. Some of those can be eliminated by design, tho.

EDIT: We need some way to prevent “speed runs”, which ruined 5-man dungeons for alot of people. Moving quickly an efficiently is great; racing through content driven by rewards is no fun for many.

they shouldnt prevent speed runs, but they should create a system where there is some purpose in killing monsters. In gw1 DOA had lightbringer points, and random drops of valuable items. As well as designs where how much you skip is limited.
To add to that, you could have hidden extra objectives that some times trigger upon killing certain enemies, or going to certain areas, with useful/cool drops.

At the end of the day you must accept that any system in place will become more effecient over time though. And people will always seek to be faster as they begin to attain mastery. The best you can hope for is something along the lines of fractals.

One thing i would definately add, is if all players die, you lose the instance. No ressurections, this would lessen the benefit of running past enemies, and increase the likelyhood for killing enemies. Players can of course revive players, but this would have its own difficulties.

NoTrigger.8396:

lets say you are an elementalist. do you know that you have a choice between being an offensive supporter or defensive supporter while using berserker gear?
being a supporter and dealing damage at the same time is even better than a dedicated role.
and all you have to do is using a different attunement! WOW thats magic, isnt it?

Being a combination of multiple disciplines does not make you better than a dedicated role. If that were true, then Druid and Shaman would be the only classes played in WoW. It’s a line of thought I’m very familiar with, given that I’m a pure DPS player to begin with.

The problem you’re highlighting here isn’t the gear. How could it be? There are no stats that would make that elementalist better at providing said support.

NoTrigger.8396:

do you know that your dragons tooth is not only a damage spell but also a support spell at the same time, because it will support your party when you are using it to trigger combo fields?
do you know that you can also provide one of the most powerful CC skills in the game, called icebow 5?

Did you know that by that metric, water trident is also a damage spell.
The key to the problem lies right there.

I’m sure we can agree you wouldn’t cast water trident on Lupi.

NoTrigger.8396:

this is too long to explain, but if you think gear defines your role, then you either dont understand the gw2 combat system, refuse to understand the combat system, or you are simply in the wrong game.

I can give it a try. First off, your gear does not define your role. It is supposed to add to it. Same with traits.
But then there’s this: Your gear and traits have a miniscule effect at best on your role in PvE. When we look at PvP, suddenly they do matter.
It’s that disparity in design, and the effective scaling of skills’ numerical effects, those are the problems here.

Almost every skill in the game tries to fit in two or more roles at the same time. You said as much yourself. You’re dealing damage and providing support at the same time. This is undisputable.

However, the effects are not equal in measure. Let’s look at the guardian’s Symbol of Protection. This is on the Hammer weapon’s autoattack.
The attack has a 100% modifier on power, a 150% modifier on power for its ticks during the symbol, and it provides 1 second of Protection each tick.
Let’s say person A and person B have a difference of opinion on what this skill is for. Person A believes that by boosting his power, he’ll deal more DPS.
Person B believes that by boosting his boon duration, he’ll provide more support.
Person A picks Berzerker’s gear. Person B picks Giver’s gear (due to the lack of any other gear with his stat of choice.)
The damage increase from person A’s choice is multitudes greater than the support increase from person B’s choice.
Hold it!

Of course it will be greater. Person A has 3 stats boosting his choice, while person B has only one of 3 stats working in his favour.

This is true, and it ties back to what I was saying earlier about stat choices. There’s no way to pick 3 stats that make you a better support character in the same single-minded way Berzerker’s gear does improve your ability to perform the DPS role.

Let’s look at it this way then, compare the relevant stats to each other only. Giver’s boon duration is an off-stat. Wearing this gear will give you 6% extra boon duration.
Now let’s compare to Berzerker’s ferocity stat, for a total of 224 points. This will raise critical damage by 16%.

This is not even mentioning the fact Boon Duration caps out, while ferocity scales ad infinitum.
Can you honestly say that a 0.06 second increase, for a total of 0.18 extra seconds of protection, is a support player’s equal to the 16% critical damage the DPS player enjoys?
Note, both deal both damage and provide support.

Traits matter more, but not enough. The tying of stats to trait lines and the amount of flat +damage% traits aren’t that interesting from a gameplay perspective. I personally believe that traits should alter skills in significant ways. Some traits do this already, others are a bit bland.

Skills, you seem to hang onto those a lot, but they’re also but one aspect of the total picture. So here’s the breakdown for the Guardian’s skillset (without downed skills):
Direct Damage: 47
Condition Damage: 7
Support: 42
Control: 31
Other: 0

The guardian does well in damage and support, lags in control, and has abysmal condition damage abilities.

Your character is a collection of traits, stats, and skills. And yes, your choices do matter, in fact.

Palador.2170:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

@Galen Grey
@cesmode

about normalized raid gear

WoW currently does this with challenge mode dungeons. In this game all gear above item level 463 will get scaled down. (more about it from the wiki: Gear will retain all hit and expertise, so players can remain capped. Stats that will be scaled down are secondary ones.)

Why not make the GW2 version of it, with a much more broader approach? No need for a new kind of gear, Galen already had an (imho) good idea: use the sPvP-armor build. Everyone – from the get go – has the same stats available in his build-library. You retain the skins from your PvE gear.

I love this suggestion because it solves many problems. Players would always be on the same power level so no place for gear discrimination. As only lv.80 players can enter the raid, there can be no level-discrimination as well. Balancing would be a dream come true for the devs, so the encounters could be finetuned perfectly.

How about taking it a step further and taking the full PvP build idea for raids?

Everyone is auto-set to level 80, with all normal traits unlocked, just like in PvP. Gear works the same as well. Thus, anyone can quickly whip up a character and throw them into raids, or set up a character with a raid build and gear that doesn’t match their PvE build/gear.

Of course, this has problems, but we can solve that too. In fact, we can solve two problems at the same time. Problem one is people that don’t know what they’re doing getting into raids. Problem two is that the devs are going to face a period of learning as they implement raids. So, we make the first three or so raids a learning experience for both the players and devs. The devs get to try a few things and see how they work before cranking them up to 11 for later raids, which will be harder. The players gain items that must be thrown into the Mystic Forge to create a “key” of sorts that they need to have on them to get into the later raids. (I’d suggest the key be Accountbound, but arguments can be made for Soulbound.)

I would also like to say that I really like the idea of non-equipment keys of some sort needed to progress through a series of raids. This creates some of the benefits of a gear treadmill without most of the downsides of it.

That sounds nice but a little bit it would dumb the game down at the same time. I like the idea that I find my own gear. Also I hope for acended armor drop loot.

Plus player who commit to the right gear showing some spirit IMO

Gilosean.3805:

Gele.2048:

1. <b>LVL 80 is not good to be the lvl set forever i mean i like if the cap is changed and also after having the same items for 10 years down the road whit no progression is also dumb for me </b>

No. No, it’s not.

Gear grind and constant leveling is not the only, or even best, way to design a game. GW2 was specifically marketed as not doing that, and not having to deal with a gear grind or raised level caps was one of the big reasons behind my purchase. I probably would stop playing if I thought that was going to change, because there are tons of games that will respect my time and effort in a way that gear grinds and raising level caps doesn’t.

OT:
I’ve always been very put off by typical MMO raids, but reading this thread has made me very happy. People see to be thinking carefully about how to do inclusive GW2-style raids where the emphasis is on playing together (vs. grinding for BiS gear or bragging rights). I’ve seen things described here that would make me interested in raiding, like having mini tutorials raids to introduce concepts (can we apply this to starter zones and get a tutorial for combos too?) and having stories built around player choices (like needing to coordinate who dies to hold off the hoards while an escorted NPC gets away, that was a good post).

I would really like to play with a large group of friends or guildmates to go through interesting stories and fun gameplay. I like playing with people, but I really can’t stand group grinds or angry elitists.

Also – and I thought this went without saying but the trait system shows that it needs to be said – making players repeat long content is bad. Locking content behind long gold or time gates is bad. Fun comes from lots of sources, but one thing it doesn’t come from is needing an external checklist to get the desired result. Please make sure to communicate in-game the choices players have and the impact of those choices.

A tutorial for combos is a great idea. It’s such a big part of the game it’s surprising it isn’t already in it.

Brainstorming rewards!

In my previous post I did spoke about a perfect way to get rewards (tokens based) but what rewards wouldn’t affect the casuals but hardcores would want? here are some examples!

• 1: +200% Magic Find buff the next 7 days (on raid completition). This would be really awesome and would improve the “possible” rewards of every piece of content that a player plays. It also opens the door to re-playability.
• 2: Unique skins (tokens based, no more RNG please).
• 3: Unique finisher (token based as well).
• 4: Unique Outfit (as well token based)
• 5: Unique Minis (meh, this one could be RNG from final boss, I wouldn’t mind)
• 6: Unique Titles! Yes! titles are something to brag about, a raid needs a title xD.
• 7: Gems. Yeah, might be a wild suggestion, but reward 100 gems per raid completed (once per week only, same as guild missions) and the raid will get lot of attention from your playerbase.

Let’s be honest. In the end we want brag rights. I would ask for better items, precursors or improved stats, but Anet already said that it’s unlikely that it will happen.

Sytherek.7689:

NoTrigger.8396:

Sytherek.7689:

NoTrigger.8396:

Sytherek.7689:

EDIT: We need some way to prevent “speed runs”, which ruined 5-man dungeons for alot of people. Moving quickly an efficiently is great; racing through content driven by rewards is no fun for many.

preventing something that you personally dont like, but others may enjoy is never a good thing.

Speed runs are the only PUGs available 90% of the time. I have no problems with speed runs; I have a problem with content being locked behind one way of playing.

you can always make your own group and use your personal way of playing and advertise the party like that?

In a game with a lousy LFG tool? They build a solid LFG tool for raids, I’ll make groups. I was a successful raider leader for years in WoW.

Why don’t I join a big raiding guild? Been there, done that, hate seeing stupid egos clash in guild chat and watching people fight over the guild bank. I’m not interested in petty politics in a game; I’m here to relax and have fun.

No thanks, I can have fun without the aggravation.

Lousy LFG tool? Type in group name, make group, people join, is some sort of rocket science required for this?

The tool is not an excuse, you just aren’t interested in making groups.

And PUG “speed runs” are not speed runs, so lets stop pretending that sitting at each boss for 15 minutes waiting for your party that can’t perform skips and dying over and over again is “speed running”.

Astralporing.1957:

Also, one point i forgot to address before.

Crystal Reid.2481:

cesmode.4257:

Hi, I mentioned this in my first post a few moments ago. I could be out of date as well as this mind set that we were given early on…but isn’t the entire game ‘endgame’ ? Hop in, do whatever you want to do. No pressure, nada. Take your time, the whole thing is your oyster. When you start creating level 80 content only, ala raids, you segregate the playerbase much like other games where its then a rush to max level to do the raids. All of the gorgeous 1-80 content you have in this game becomes completely trivial and a stepping stone to the real game. You might as well just allow people to boost to 80 via potions or something and skip leveling all together because it becomes absolutely meaningless. A meaningless time sink. I didnt need 80 levels to learn my class. Maybe less than two dozen and I had it down. The rest was just enjoyment because the 1-80 content was nice. I leveled through it without any pressure. Put max level content in the game, and we will feel rushed to get to the real stuff. Its human nature.

For this reason, I do not think raids belong in GW2. But if they are to be implemented, I do have suggestions which I have shared

I bolded a section of this that I wanted to inquire about. Do you think the fact the game has been live for over 2 years now change your thoughts on this? This is definitely a common occurrence with new MMO’s that launch with raiding, but what about a game that didn’t launch with raiding? Is there still an issue of players “rushing to 80” when a large percentage of the player base already has at least one 80? Thoughts?

Yes and no. Yes, there is an issue, and no, it’s not directly tied to the 1-79 vs 80 lvl distinction. The issue lies in making raids The Content That Matters. The Content For Real Players. If you look closely at this thread, you will see the preference of the many raid supporters to make raids heavily exclusive. You need to be level 80. You need to have perfect gear (preferably berserker, because if “you are good at the game” you don’t need lesser stat sets :P). You need to have skills in top x% of the players… some other methods of restricting access were also mentioned. Only those that pass that threshold deserve to play the content, and only those that can pass that content deserve to be rewarded.

Sounds reasonable, at first – until you start to think about the unspoken corollary. One that says, that Raids are The Content That Matters, and everything else is a content that doesn’t.

If only level 80 players are allowed to play the content that matters, it means that levels 1-79 do not matter, and that content for those levels do not matter as well. Or at least matters less. That every content that is not so restrictive is somehow lesser. That is quite a powerful message (even if it isn’t true – perception is quite often more important than reality).
(it’s the same reason why you have to be very careful with using the “endgame” label – it also sends a message that triggers lot of preconceptions tied to it)

With dungeons you managed to avoid that issue completely – yes, there were some level 80 ones, but they were just a end step in a ladder that started much earlier. Even if some of those dungeons weren’t really that well balanced for lower levels (those for which they were supposedly designed), the mere fact that they were labeled as such was a message about their inclusivity.

there is going to have to be content designed for those who are more experienced at the game no matter how you slice it. There is really no way you can design content for both. This isnt really a new concept in gaming.
Playing the last level in contra was considerably harder than playing the first. Defeating M. Bison in streetfighter at 8 stars was considerably harder than fighting the first guy at level 1. Defeating Weapon type enemies in FF7-FF9 was considerably harder than defeating the first boss in the game.

anyhow i dont think that just making the content will make it that way.
Is Orr the only area that matters? is Arah the only area that matters? Is Southsun better than queensdale?

As long as the game doesnt give objectively better rewards, people wont see it as the only game.

maha.7902:

Sytherek.7689:

NoTrigger.8396:

Sytherek.7689:

NoTrigger.8396:

Sytherek.7689:

EDIT: We need some way to prevent “speed runs”, which ruined 5-man dungeons for alot of people. Moving quickly an efficiently is great; racing through content driven by rewards is no fun for many.

preventing something that you personally dont like, but others may enjoy is never a good thing.

Speed runs are the only PUGs available 90% of the time. I have no problems with speed runs; I have a problem with content being locked behind one way of playing.

you can always make your own group and use your personal way of playing and advertise the party like that?

In a game with a lousy LFG tool? They build a solid LFG tool for raids, I’ll make groups. I was a successful raider leader for years in WoW.

Why don’t I join a big raiding guild? Been there, done that, hate seeing stupid egos clash in guild chat and watching people fight over the guild bank. I’m not interested in petty politics in a game; I’m here to relax and have fun.

No thanks, I can have fun without the aggravation.

Lousy LFG tool? Type in group name, make group, people join, is some sort of rocket science required for this?

The tool is not an excuse, you just aren’t interested in making groups.

And PUG “speed runs” are not speed runs, so lets stop pretending that sitting at each boss for 15 minutes waiting for your party that can’t perform skips and dying over and over again is “speed running”.

there is no reason to mock pugs, try to keep your distaste for them out of the discussion. Its going to bait derails. Try to focus on game design ideas and reasonings

Would you guys consider the “under attack” version of la a raid if it were instanced? The one that was used during Season 1 where you were to save civilians.

I ask because this would further expand on the idea of breaking up a raid into several groups, as it would go as far as allowing players to venture even alone or in pairs while fighting together for one goal. Not to forget that there would still be a need for larger groups that take care of the reacurring/timed events, so that players have a meaningful choice of what they want to do.

There would be less focus on raidspecific mechanics but on
-Knowledge (when do the events spawn)
-individual skill for the non-event-rescuers (how many civilians can you rescue per minute)
-map wide coordination (how to spread out so the map is covered most efficiantly)

If you insist on a bossfight you could still attach the hologram fight to the end of this raid

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Basically our system means: if you want to do absolutely the most damage, you have no choice but choosing berserker on each piece of armor.

What if armor-design would take a slightly different approach? What if a certain slot only can offer some specific stats?

Chestarmor: only possible combinations with Toughness, Vitality, Healing Power, Boon Duration
Legarmor: only possible combinations with Toughness, Healing Power, Boon Duration, Ferocity
Gloves: only possible combinations with Power, Precision, Condition Damage, Toughness
Boots: only possible combinations with Power, Ferocity, Condition Duration, Condition Damage
Shoulderarmor: only possible combinations with Boon Duration, Condition Duration, Precision

etc.

This way people really would have to think about their build. A full damage build looks at the available chestarmor-combinations and has to decide between:

• Toughness, Vitality, Healing Power
• Healing Power, Boon Duration, Vitality
• Toughness, Boon Duration, Healing Power
  …
  none of those has huge effects on damage. Now that would be a choice.

(note: these are just spontaneous examples, I’m sure anyone of you could come up with better ones, but I think you get the core of my idea)
(note2: there could be new slot-specific stats as well, e.g. boots can offer a 5% Speed boost, gloves can offer small aoe’s for any attack,…)

I actually did an entire thread months ago where I analysed the problem down to great detail. The problem isn’t just gear. Traits, skills, AI, and the underuse of endurance for anything but dodging are all core to this problem.

Personally, when thinking about ‘no trinity’, I was thinking about having more than 3 roles. If we go look at older RPG’s, we can see Arenanet’s DPS, Control, Support return as the 3 overarching role categories. Tanking, as we know it today, is a form of Control. Healing is a form of Support. Buffing and debuffing roles used to be important. There were hybrids like DPS-Control, Control-Support, and DPS-Support roles.

I think every class in the game should be able to play as any role. They would add their own flavour to it, but they would be able to do it. (A dodge-tank thief? A kiting necro? An all out defensive warrior? They’re all controlling the mob, aren’t they?)

I think a player should be able to choose and customise their role through traits and gear more than by the class they picked at lvl 1.
I believe traits should modify skills and your character, and not provide stat boosts, while gear should provide stat boosts and keep away from skills.
I’d like to see there to be a multitude of stats to choose from for every role.
For DPS, what if we added attack speed as a stat? Is full berzerker still best, or we want to hit faster? What if the stats were balanced so closely it’s a matter of preference?
You could be a fast hitting bladedancer or a heavy hitting powerhouse.

I think conditions and boons are too powerful, and that there should be a stat that brings them to today’s effectiveness. What if protection started at 5% instead of 33%, and what if a support character could boost that even higher by min-maxing?

If we go that way about traits and stats, we can make celestial the jack of all trades gear, and other gear sets provide specialisations. Of course, legendary gear can swap stats, but that’s the promise of being a full legendary hero, isn’kitten The ability to swap roles on the fly, always being there to save the day.

Doomed.5201:

Would you guys consider the “under attack” version of la a raid if it were instanced? The one that was used during Season 1 where you were to save civilians.

I ask because this would further expand on the idea of breaking up a raid into several groups, as it would go as far as allowing players to venture even alone or in pairs while fighting together for one goal. Not to forget that there would still be a need for larger groups that take care of the reacurring/timed events, so that players have a meaningful choice of what they want to do.

There would be less focus on raidspecific mechanics but on
-Knowledge (when do the events spawn)
-individual skill for the non-event-rescuers (how many civilians can you rescue per minute)
-map wide coordination (how to spread out so the map is covered most efficiantly)

If you insist on a bossfight you could still attach the hologram fight to the end of this raid

I wouldn’t be opposed to it, but we had a fairly easy time maxing out LA on Gandara. It could make for a kitten raid encounter though. The different groups, coordinating, different tactics per boss, defeating 3 bosses at the same time, those are definitely raid style mechanics.

Astralporing.1957:

The raids, if they are implemented, would indeed need a reward system that is equivalent to time and effort investment. It should not however be visibly more rewarding than other forms of content (again, relatively to time and effort invested). Running raids should definitely not be less rewarding, that running dungeons. It shouldn’t be more rewarding either – or at least the differences should not be huge. So, rewards from, for example, 2 hours of raiding should not be higher that, say, ~4 hours of any other alternate content. And if raids are to offer unique rewards, then any other alternate content should offer equivalent unique rewards as well (though personally i think that there should be nothing in this game that would be available through less than at least two alternate methods – not including TP).

Other content should reward unique rewards, and most of them do. What we miss are unique rewards acquired through skill. We have unique rewards acquired through every other aspect of the game.
And the unique rewards from raids should in no way be available elsewhere, escpecially not on the TP.

I fully support meaningful, but limited trash mobs in raids. Don’t make it like the dungeons – that’s what looks bad. But how can you blame people for wanting to avoid it as much as possible? Too many mobs which are often very punishing. At least in Arah, the skipping is what I find difficult, not the bosses. Obviously you need some gating or no leashing if you really want people to be forced to fight your mobs, but if they were interesting, and limited in number, I don’t see it being a problem.

As for the zerker business, I’m torn. I don’t love how everything is made “easy” by being able to blow it down so quickly. But it’s not like just standing in the stack makes you win. Abilities are being used properly and at the right time. While I think one should certainly wear it if one can survive with it on, I think there is good reason to highlight other gear choices, even if its limited as a practical matter. DPS will always be king, so it goes. But a new element of play is born when you are no longer able to avoid most attacks. You may be forced to range, or someone may need to drop a water field, or someone may need to just outright heal you so you can proceed to deal high damage. I don’t think every fight should attempt to wreck the existence of the zerker. That wouldn’t be fair, and those people really are skilled. But giving a nod to other gear types seems like a step in the right direction. Traits and skill choice certainly dominate when it comes to playstyle…but it seems permissible to have a fight or two where that otherwise unwanted gear type emerges as the star in conjunction with a tanky or healy build.

Conditions concern me. I can’t see any way around that other than the creation of a new form of condition after a stack cap. As an example, I’ve seen someone suggest a “deep wound” be applied after 25 stacks of bleed, which then erases the bleed stacks. That’s probably a less than ideal situation, but I do believe conditions be given serious consideration when designing raid encounters.