Thank you all for making the first CDI topic discussions such a good start. The next phase as mentioned at the start of the initiative is for us to discuss how we could better evolve the process around CDI. The key areas for me personally are as follows and based on my interactions on the PVE thread:
1: More focused Topics.
2: Summaries of discussion/direction every three pages.
3: More time to post.
Please know the expectation isn’t for you to list your top three, this is just how I did it. This is a discussion primarily and next Monday I will post the actions so we can evolve the CDI best working practices immediately.
i was asking myself, does the gw2-designers have no vision of theyre game or why they need the players to discuss topics? isnt that the job of a designer to judge how some suggestions fit in that vision and what maybe is a great addition? why now the players need to discuss in what direction that game should evolve? isnt that the job of a designer? seeing the massive amount of feedback and design something?
Let’s discuss about how to discuss and forget the PvP is flawed.
New meta.
lol wp.
Collaborative development – sorry anet – I dont like it whatsoever. I know this isnt the case, but it just seems like you are trying to get us to do your job for you. You guys know how to design stuff, and how to take feedback to change these designs. Collaborative development is one of those things which sounds good round the meeting table, but then when you get down to here…most people probably dont care. We just want to vent and give feedback in normal ways and you can use this in your design process.
Character: Henry rank million/Duke Henry
Necromancer/Casual Warrior
[Team] Best WvW guild of all time. EASILY.
Let’s discuss about how to discuss and forget the PvP is flawed.
New meta.
lol wp.
Collaborative development – sorry anet – I dont like it whatsoever. I know this isnt the case, but it just seems like you are trying to get us to do your job for you. You guys know how to design stuff, and how to take feedback to change these designs. Collaborative development is one of those things which sounds good round the meeting table, but then when you get down to here…most people probably dont care. We just want to vent and give feedback in normal ways and you can use this in your design process.
Game modes discussion was actually interesting. But this thread is a joke
Let’s discuss about how to discuss and forget the PvP is flawed.
New meta.
lol wp.
Collaborative development – sorry anet – I dont like it whatsoever. I know this isnt the case, but it just seems like you are trying to get us to do your job for you. You guys know how to design stuff, and how to take feedback to change these designs. Collaborative development is one of those things which sounds good round the meeting table, but then when you get down to here…most people probably dont care. We just want to vent and give feedback in normal ways and you can use this in your design process.
Game modes discussion was actually interesting. But this thread is a joke
But why did they need to turn it into a PR thing. Really, why not just look for peoples game mode ideas in other threads
Character: Henry rank million/Duke Henry
Necromancer/Casual Warrior
[Team] Best WvW guild of all time. EASILY.
2: Summaries of discussion/direction every three pages.
3: More time to post.
2. Is a very good idea!
3. If you do that, then plz do multiple topics at once to speed the progress up.
As you can see from multiple posts here: This whole discussion is time critical… You have to act soon, if you don’t want to loose a lot of ACTIVE players!
I would also like to see more developers to participate on the discussions, so far i only saw players discussing.
I propose a much more interesting topic: Game balance.
I start: Ele is the weakest class I’ve seen in any pvp game. Warrior is godlike.
Ele is actually very strong if the guy playing is approximately ~10x more skilled than the guy he’s fighting.
Brilliant. So if I play an ele I have to multiply my MMR by 10000 and then I’ll have my exact ladder position? Is there any similar coefficient for warriors?
It all depends on what you are discussing… Although in pvp there arn’t many things to discuss. The biggest(needs the most thinking time) issue is still balance. In this case the your first two points definately apply.
example of more focussed topics regarding balance:
-Nerf OP builds accordingly (will happen more or less next balance patch)
-The condi/bunker/burst/immob/spam meta
-Fix Broken Weaponsets (1 thread per profession)
-Fix useless traits (1 thread per profession)
Lets say you will discuss rewards:
-Rewards tied to leaderboards
-Casual rewards(through all reward chests)
-Rewards tied to tournament wins
Lets say you discuss game modes:
-What game modes could be added and which ones shouldn’t(has been partially done)
-How to implement game modes in sPvP/tPvP(hasn’t been done)
Now that i’ve written this… It actually comes down to your first two points and thus the evolution of CDI should be like the following:
If you want to discuss one big topic, ask us how we would like to divide the big topic into more focussed ones. Then give feedback every 3 pages for these focussed topics and at the end make 1 thread combining “results” from all.
It all depends on what you are discussing… Although in pvp there arn’t many things to discuss. The biggest(needs the most thinking time) issue is still balance. In this case the your first two points definately apply.
example of more focussed topics regarding balance:
-Nerf OP builds accordingly (will happen more or less next balance patch)
-The condi/bunker/burst/immob/spam meta
-Fix Broken Weaponsets (1 thread per profession)
-Fix useless traits (1 thread per profession)
Lets say you will discuss rewards:
-Rewards tied to leaderboards
-Casual rewards(through all reward chests)
-Rewards tied to tournament wins
Lets say you discuss game modes:
-What game modes could be added and which ones shouldn’t(has been partially done)
-How to implement game modes in sPvP/tPvP(hasn’t been done)
Now that i’ve written this… It actually comes down to your first two points and thus the evolution of CDI should be like the following:
If you want to discuss one big topic, ask us how we would like to divide the big topic into more focussed ones. Then give feedback every 3 pages for these focussed topics and at the end make 1 thread combining “results” from all.
what should a discussion about balance bring? the past shows regardless of suggestions, anet balance the way they like and think its the best. then u has to play several months in a unbalanced game before it evolves with a big patch into another unbalanced meta. u know every 2 weeks pvp is down for living world updates, but anet cant use this time to introduce 1-5 little modifications to improve balance.
it all boils down to following: the actions and the statements dont fit. shaving? in a several monthly frequency? really?
what do u think will happen the next balance patch. i bet, something will be unbalanced and we will need to play with it for several months until anet think its time for another “big” balance patch.
they knew exactly that hambow is broken. the knew it several weeks ago. and did they fixed it? i was forced to update my client several times in between the announcement the build archiving to much and now. but not a single balance update.
so what should the discussion bring? u waste your time on something that 99% will not happen and anet has another pr-gag for done nothing. and then they release another statement and the following actions will not fit into that.
First of all, I’d suggest coming up with a more interesting thread title. When I first read the abbreviation “CDI” I couldn’t remember what it stands for until I recalled the sticky from ages ago.
I’d suggest composing a brief ingame mail stating something along the lines “We want to make pvp better, your input is needed. Please visit this link.” The majority of players are not reading this forum so it would be beneficial to try to reach out to them in game. You could also make it one of the headlines in the info section of the game launcher.
In addition to discussion threads, I’d like to see short surveys where people can vote on changes they would like to see. Ideally, these could be completed in game.
i mostly agree with you but i try to stay optimistic and give as much ideas to anet as i can so that maybe one day they will consider them
The fact they are clearly stating they want to have more focussed topics means they want to do the effort to listen to us.
So why start flaming about that if this might be the ultimate chance ? I know we have all been dissapointed countless times but at the end it’s just a game… What if that hour you invest for making a constructive post(multiple posts obviously) about a complex issue finnaly pays off ?
1.) I’m not really sure about the intentions of this “CDI”. I really appreciate more communication and information, but with the CDI-topic choice, it seems, that you are directing the discussion towards only one topic, when at the same time there are a lot of topics to talk about. I hope this CDI is not to avoid the responsibility to talk about every interesting part of the game. Currently we get teased alot about the revamp of the pvp reward restructure, but why wasn’t there a “CDI”-Thread before? We couldn’t we talk about the revamp too, and not only about game modes?
2.) The discussion should start with a load of information. What is planned? Why was that planned? Why not the other way? Take f.e. the class-balance-discussion-approach starting with a post what is planned to get changed and why.
EU – Multiple times #1 SoloQ pre Dec 2014 (pure MMR based ladder)
Primoridal (S1) & Exalted (S2) & Illustrious (S3) Legend
Let’s discuss about how to discuss and forget the PvP is flawed.
New meta.
lol wp.
Collaborative development – sorry anet – I dont like it whatsoever. I know this isnt the case, but it just seems like you are trying to get us to do your job for you. You guys know how to design stuff, and how to take feedback to change these designs. Collaborative development is one of those things which sounds good round the meeting table, but then when you get down to here…most people probably dont care. We just want to vent and give feedback in normal ways and you can use this in your design process.
Game modes discussion was actually interesting. But this thread is a joke
But why did they need to turn it into a PR thing. Really, why not just look for peoples game mode ideas in other threads
It turned into a PR thing because that is what the players wanted.
Also I find it funny you are complaining that Arenanet getting the players to do their jobs and then turn around and critize them when they get it wrong from YOUR prospective, but if they had asked your point of view maybe they would have gotten it right from the beginning.
part of designing and creating a product is realizing that you wont have all the answers and it is ok to get other ideas or inspiration from other players.
with that said, Kinda agree, they shouldn’t be listening to players wtih respect to other things like balance that result in the elementalist being gutted after the first beta. And that also result in Gw2 becoming spammy instead of the action/thinking game it was original meant to be. So yea, players suck but devs should have been able to limit player input in their decisions.
As u know im pro. ~Tomonobu Itagaki
This is an mmo forum, if someone isn’t whining chances are the game is dead.
1. Focused topics relevant to the largest concerns/QQs – people really lose hope when there is something that is broken that goes a long time with no fix. Knowing there is a fix inc helps a lot. Not responding to repeated complaints just makes negativity fester even more (see: elementalist forum and any post that mentions RtL).
Also, to everyone complaining, get your heads on right. This is actually a great initiative, and makes a ton of sense. A good company asks its customers what it wants and devotes its resources to developing that. Otherwise, they will spend time developing features/projects that they think people want but isn’t true. Look up “the Lean Startup” if you need an idea.
There’s nothing to discuss that hasn’t already been said and ignored in multiple other threads. Are those issues going to magically resolve themselves if they’re pasted here?
You have gotten what you paid for, all that remains is biweekly gemshop pushing.
I believe the intent is this thread is to retrospect the Collaborative Development initiative. You’re suppose to include suggestions on how to improve that, not how to improve PvP.
Did you think the top 3 format was a good idea? Do you want to see more developer responses? Do you have a better idea on how community priorities can be polled? Do you think your suggestions were ignored? Do you think it was hard to draw attention to the very good ideas? Do you think a vocal minority dominated the discussion?
They probably want your feedback in the top 3 suggestions/ideas/concerns format like the original thread.
Server Programmer (sPvP)
Isle of Janthir: Flux, Latch, Aegir
I thought the CDI on game modes was well done, it had a good balance of mod-interaction and you ended the discussion at an appropriate time imo.
I like the polls that have been popping up in a few dev/community manager threads to gauge player sentiment on various aspects of the game.
I would like to see a follow up on what decisions had been made by the devs based on the a particular CDI. I don’t really know what the devs have in mind based on the game mode CDI. For example you could set a timeline after the CDI had concluded to brief the community on the definite direction you will be taking based on that CDI. It is important for the community to see concrete results of the process.
I agree that focused topics are essential to make the process work. As mentioned above the time to post for gamemode CDI was good- too long and you lose momentum.
I believe the intent is this thread is to retrospect the Collaborative Development initiative. You’re suppose to include suggestions on how to improve that, not how to improve PvP.
Did you think the top 3 format was a good idea? Do you want to see more developer responses? Do you have a better idea on how community priorities can be polled? Do you think your suggestions were ignored? Do you think it was hard to draw attention to the very good ideas? Do you think a vocal minority dominated the discussion?
They probably want your feedback in the top 3 suggestions/ideas/concerns format like the original thread.
So it’s like a meeting about future meetings?
Where I work we call those wastes of time. How about moving down to the second most popular topic on each list.
You have gotten what you paid for, all that remains is biweekly gemshop pushing.
What Yasha said. At this time I think it’s most important to prove player’s feedback is not ignored and it yelds some actual results. If you won’t show you actually act upon suggestions, future threads are quite likely to turn into troll/grief fests. So:
1. Set a time period (two-three weeks would be optimal) after which you’ll brief players on the results of your internal discussion and direction you’ll be taking with future developement.
2. More dev posts are always welcome, even more so if they come from guys on decision-making level.
3. Summaries every couple pages sound good.
I realize your policy is not to disclose stuff before it’s ready, but I think it’s better to bring community into discussion at earlier stage than having to rework it afterwards since people hate it (like paid tournaments, QP farming and leaderboards, lack of solo q because matchmaking was supposed to be just fine for both solo and team players… just to name a few).
“Men are more ready to repay an injury than a benefit,
because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.”
1. More Focussed Topics would speed up the process a lot. It’s also easier for people to come up with ideas and suggestions if the subject is narrowed.
2. Give feedback on people that suggest “big” things. There are some people out there that make quite an effort to think about something big regarding the topic of choice and it seems you simply ignore these ideas. This also applies to the suggestions subforum.
3. A summary every couple pages
4. You need to attract more people from the game to the forums(send them a mail, do in-game polls etc)
Did you think the top 3 format was a good idea? Do you want to see more developer responses? Do you have a better idea on how community priorities can be polled? Do you think your suggestions were ignored? Do you think it was hard to draw attention to the very good ideas? Do you think a vocal minority dominated the discussion?
in every discussion/suggestion/whatsoever thread i upvoted things which i advocate but never knew if it is usefull to do so in any way.
i think there can be a better use – especially in this sort of discussion/interaction with the community – of the ‘+1’ system. if someone comes up with an idea you like, hit the +1. as far as i can see it, there is no such big use of it atm, at least no one talks about it. maybe announce the use of it in the OP and tell people that upvoted posts will have a better chance to get viewed – if that’s the case anyway.
i believe this can also keep a thread clean
Karl Otik
no gutz no glory “Tranquility has a beard.”
I feel like the next discussion should be on rewards or conditions as a whole. There has to be some kind of discussion about the ease some classes spit out conditions, how crertain conditions aka burning are basically immune to cleanses because they do al ot of damage in 1-3 seconds and how conditions require only one damage stat verus 3 for power builds. It’s ludicrous to act like adding a few more cleanses addressed the problem. Condition Bunkers are going to be the next balance bugaboo after the December patch.
I didn’t participate in the 1st CDI so I can’t offer very useful direct feedback on that process, but I think it is a great idea, and will endeavour to do so in future discussions.
From the little I did see, and other experiences on forum discussion of this sort here and elsewhere I think;
Both more focused topics (at least some of the time) and some sort of system for summarising the thread every so often are good ideas.
Where appropriate, including some kind of poll in the thread may sometimes be useful.
I also sometimes see a tendency for a few individuals to drown out contrary opinion, so it may be worth giving some (very careful) thought to mitigating against that a little.
Edit: periodic thread summaries may well be a good way to achieve this too done well.
The Tally family of Desolation-
Victor(Ranger), Astral(Ele), Martial(Warrior), Erroneous(Mes), Ticker(Engi), Ravin(Thief)
with special guests Hematophagia(Necro) and Grace Burns(Guardian)
I have just posted this on the WvW and PVE forums. I am sure John will have his own concluding statements and it is up to him if he wants to run another thread on Monday for PvP:
First of all thanks to everyone for their comments and feedback. We have completed another round of learning and a new phase!
Secondarily i wanted to summarize the actions that we will be taking moving forward, which are as follows:
1: More Focused Topics! (Done!)
2: Build out more time for Devs to engage (This is already in progress)
3: Thread owner to post a summary every three pages
4: Post writers should aim to be concise and to the point using examples where necessary.
Thirdly we have our new topic: Commander Functionality which will be discussed on the WvW forums ensuring that the community members in this area are able to see a better example of the initiative in action (fingers crossed). This thread will go live Monday.
Once again, thanks everyone and I hope you having a great weekend.
I have just posted this on the WvW and PVE forums. I am sure John will have his own concluding statements and it is up to him if he wants to run another thread on Monday for PvP:
First of all thanks to everyone for their comments and feedback. We have completed another round of learning and a new phase!
Secondarily i wanted to summarize the actions that we will be taking moving forward, which are as follows:
1: More Focused Topics! (Done!)
2: Build out more time for Devs to engage (This is already in progress)
3: Thread owner to post a summary every three pages
4: Post writers should aim to be concise and to the point using examples where necessary.
Thirdly we have our new topic: Commander Functionality which will be discussed on the WvW forums ensuring that the community members in this area are able to see a better example of the initiative in action (fingers crossed). This thread will go live Monday.
Once again, thanks everyone and I hope you having a great weekend.
Chris
The best example to keep it concise, people could follow a guideline.
Example:
State problem
Propose idea to help said problem.
Give example how it would work.
I propose a much more interesting topic: Game balance.
I start: Ele is the weakest class I’ve seen in any pvp game. Warrior is godlike.
I’ve wanted to change from thief to ele recently, but because of how pathetically sad they are atm, I’ve more or less been stuck with the sinking thief ship. >.<
And yeah, can ANet please realize that warriors are incredibly overpowered right now, and, by the looks of things, they aren’t going to change any time soon?
I don’t think discussion threads about how to hold future discussion threads is a constructive use of our (or your) time. Refining the process is a matter of trial and error on your side. Keep in mind, these threads are mainly for YOUR benefit, since only you have the ability to turn the feedback into something useful for the game. So, figure out the best format for the discussion, and then post those guidelines. Let’s not see a thread like this one again; we all have better things to be doing.
As much as you ask people to be concise, empassioned writers are going to be a bit long-winded at times. As the readers and interpreters of the feedback, use your discretion as to when you should read in depth, and when to skim. Sometimes, wordy replies are warranted. Don’t stifle great but lengthy feedback just because you don’t want to invest the time to read it, just skim.
I’d say, don’t bother summarizing except maybe once the thread is over and locked. Rather, constantly read and reply to the discussion when necessary, and give useful and relevant information in your replies. Use Jon Peters’ replies in the Dec 10th patch discussion thread as a good example of how to do this. People interested in the discussion will read it through themselves, and if there is a constant back-and-forth with the devs throughout, a need for a summary shouldn’t be needed since the players will want to read most or all of the posts anyway.
