Guild Wars 2

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Chrispy.5641:

There’s that ‘Our skills should be the exact same as all the other professions’ argument again (Our shouts should give allies buffs, just like our great and powerful overlords the Guardian and Warrior).

Do you have any other reason that doesn’t involve invoking other professions?

I don’t have to buff other ppl to make use of shouts. I’m running a condition-shout build on my warrior as example. I don’t reach those high numbers you may be familiar with but its very funny to play. I heal myself, cure conditions and stack adrenaline when I use a shout. Furthermore, they’re on ~18 seconds cooldown.
If you’re running the ranger shouts, you get nearly no advantage at all in PvE or vs. normal mobs in general.

• Warrior shouts at the fastest, are on a 20 second cooldown.

• Guard on a 12 second cooldown to give my pet almost permanent protection uptime. Keeps it from dying to 1 shot attacks from bosses. the extra stuff is extra, and being to keep dealing 100% of my damage 100% of the time really helps.
  • Now, if pets were fixed to where this wasn’t a problem, then guard would be useless.
• Sic Em for a 10 second 40% damage and speed increase. Even better when combined with a fully buffed cat/bird through beastmastery, master’s bond, and might stacking. The damage it does is often greater than I could achieve by myself. Its kind of a literal glass cannon though, so, having Guard or Signet of Stone around ensures that all the damage gets done. the 3 second reveal is nice too.
  • If pets were fixed so they didn’t need so many buffs to deal decent damage, then this skill might be a little over powered, and need to change.
• Protect me to get a few seconds of taking no damage. Not a smart idea to use a glassy pet, but bears and drakes have no problem lasting all 6 seconds. forcing enemies to take 6 more seconds to kill you often gives your other skills time to recharge or redo your plan a little.
  • If this skill made your pet take 50% less damage or something, or let it continue attacking, then it would be perfect, but I do not agree that this skill is useless in its current form.
• Search and Rescue……you got me there, but that’s about it.
  • If the pet could revive faster, this skill would see more use, but as it is, the skill has its purpose, and there is nothing I can think of that makes this skill bad, only pointless to carry in 99% of all situations.

Chrispy.5641:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Chrispy.5641:

Substance E.4852:

Chrispy.5641:

Forzani.2584:

Yoh.8469:

Just a note of interest.
I’m playing around with a Nature’s Voice build and I noticed something rather odd.
Why does Guard have a 1 sec cast time? Really, I want to know.
I can’t make heads or tails of it, that a skill type which has always been defined by having instant cast times, doesn’t.
Not that the rest of their functionality has anything to do with shouts either.
It’s just a really weird design choice.

Can’t remember the name, but he will make an appearance telling you that it needs a 1 sec cast time or else it would be overpowered. That a shout isn’t always a shout

And he makes an appearance! But, Its getting pointless to keep arguing this against you guys. I mean, yeah, sure, it gives your pet 10 seconds of Stealth and Guard to start with, and that balancing considerations were made, (and had to be), when thinking of traits like Nature’s Voice and Shout Mastery (plus the 30% boon duration in nature magic to get nature’s voice), and I would have to say that its a pretty balanced skill because it keeps your pet alive even through boss fights, and it gives you a source of regen and swiftness if you don’t have any. Not all skills need to deal damage, and not all skills need to affect allies by default, even if they are shouts. It could benefit the Ranger a little more by default, so it would be a useful skill without needing to waste 40 trait points, but the skill isn’t terrible in its current form.

Oh wait, I forgot! you guys don’t care about all that! I could explain all day why Guard works the way it works, but, Just like the “Stealth, Cool!!!” people on the longbow, there are the “Its supposed to be instant, nothing else matters!!” people when it comes to shouts.

Dude, just let it go. None of us with your “logic” and you aren’t going to convince us with fairy tails of how “borderline OP” Guard is.

I never said it was OP, just that its fine the way it is, and that its not a terrible skill. I’ll let it go when you can give me a single reason why the skill is worthlessly underpowered, and saying that its supposed to be a insta cast shout skill isn’t good enough of a reason beyond “Shouts are supposed to be instant!”

Th reason is that all classes who have shouts can use shoutbuilds and be somewhat effective with it, except the ranger.

There’s that ‘Our skills should be the exact same as all the other professions’ argument again (Our shouts should give allies buffs, just like our great and powerful overlords the Guardian and Warrior).

Do you have any other reason that doesn’t involve invoking other professions?

Yeah, certain types of skills have certain types of functionality, it’s a perfectly valid argument. Personally I only brought it up because it felt kinda clunky, but you went and made a great big deal of it.

The fact is, Ranger shouts are shouts in name only, they share almost none of the mechanics of shouts from not only other professions, but even GW1 which was the original idea. Area effect abilities that either buff or debuff, and have instant casting.
If they were called something else other then shouts, I don’t think I’d have much of a problem with them, other then them kinda sucking.

It’s as if signet skill just up and decided not to have a passive effect. Even if it’s perfectly functional and balanced, wouldn’t you at least stop to ask why?
It’s bloody a odd design decision. And they didn’t even make anything worth while for their effort to go in another direction.

And since we are one the topic, they should either change the skill type name, like Commands or something (since that is what they do), or changed the functionality to something closer to what the skill type actually does. It’s just another in a very long line of questionable design decisions.

Chrispy.5641:

• Search and Rescue……you got me there, but that’s about it.
  • If the pet could revive faster, this skill would see more use, but as it is, the skill has its purpose, and there is nothing I can think of that makes this skill bad, only pointless to carry in 99% of all situations.

Search and Rescue is a group-oriented shout skill which is not meant to do diddly squat for ourselves and more for someone who goes down during combat and is not being focused on so the pet and dive in and help them up. Which, notably, implies the pet is expendable for this and you are not.

What AMAZING suggestion is it everyone is waiting for/looking for since this thread is still open? When will it actually close and get worked on?

Frostfang.5109:

What AMAZING suggestion is it everyone is waiting for/looking for since this thread is still open? When will it actually close and get worked on?

I think it is a misconception to assume that work on the ranger class is initiated by putting an end to the thread.

What they are looking for, is ideas. They want to know what we feel are the biggest issues with the class. That discussion will last as long as there are valuable ideas coming out of it. But work on the ranger class may already be in progress, for all we know. I doubt the devs are just picking their nose while we chuck out suggestions.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Search and Rescue is a group-oriented shout skill which is not meant to do diddly squat for ourselves and more for someone who goes down during combat and is not being focused on so the pet and dive in and help them up. Which, notably, implies the pet is expendable for this and you are not.

I’ve heard many friends of mine often complain, that Search and Rescue is a bit unreliable. That the pet doesn’t always help people up. Is it still unreliable?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I’ve heard many friends of mine often complain, that Search and Rescue is a bit unreliable. That the pet doesn’t always help people up. Is it still unreliable?

Yes. Grawl fractal is one of the places where this skill bugs alot.

In that case, maybe the skill should simply instantly teleport the pet to the target it needs to rescue, and maybe the rescue range of the pet should be increased.

I don’t know the exact mechanics that are being used for reviving with a pet. I know npc’s can revive players, and I assume that pets work in much the same way. But I also know that there are often ai pathing issues, and that reviving doesn’t always work. Sometimes as a player, I get a revive pop up, but I find myself unable to help a player up. It is almost as if the target is in range to be revived, but it can’t draw a direct line of sight between me and the target. If this is the case, maybe the revive mechanics for the pet should simply be simplified, so that they can’t bug out in this way (no line of sight requirement), and aren’t reliant on the pet’s ability to find a way to the target (instantly teleport to the target).

CETheLucid.3964:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

That’s an issue that has to be addressed, yes. But I don’t want to be dependent on an AI if I haven’t chosen to.

Well, that’s easy. Don’t play the profession whose defining mechanic is an animal companion. It was your choice to make.

You must try the class to see that the Pet AI is broken, i tried the class in beta , rangers had a nice damage + nice skills coef , i decided to make a ranger in the Release, but ,Do you know what?? they NERFED the ranger in the Release, a nice nerf to damage + Broken AI = Broken class.

I personally don’t play a ranger at all. But I play a lot with players who do. As such, I experienced their frustrations through them, when they accompany me in dungeons. I have seen the problems with pet ai indirectly, and have seen how often they spent being dead during almost every boss encounter.

“Well, that’s easy. Don’t play the profession whose defining mechanic is an animal companion. It was your choice to make.”

I think what you are really saying is, don’t play the class whose class mechanic is broken. Which means several other classes should not be played as well, like the necromancer. It often seems that the hardest part about playing a class in GW2, is figuring out which parts of the class are broken, and which sigils and trait combinations are borked. I know that sounds harsh, but for many players this is a reality. We make our characters, and expect everything to be in working order. And then we slowly come to realize that a lot of elements either don’t work well due to bugs, or due to poor design.

Dear ANET workers, administrators and such,
we (players) ’ve made xxx threads about pets and problems with them,
and we are really frustrated with your answers.

Just say – ‘’We have no clue what we have done and we messed this class fully.
So we are looking for your (players) opinions.’’ (As we know, this topic is about that..)

So, then LISTEN TO US – why ‘d u have to screw mechanics from gw1 – where players could choose between use pet, or not to use it.
Work on that – 70% of rangers don’t want to play with this disturbing animals.

We are lacking base damage per second with longbow which should be our primary weapon, because u decided to split our dmg.

To be honest, im playing guild wars since 2007 – and never ever been frustrated as im now, because, ppl doesnt want us in dungeons, we cant play properly in wvw (without roaming), and in spvp we can choose only 2 solid builds to play.

I just cant get it over, that you cant understand what players want.
It’s simple – remove pet, or at least make that, we can choose to have it with us or not.
If the pet is active – split dmg, if it isnt – give back that dmg to the character.

I dont give a kitten for restrictions, but you heavly ruined this class.
And we ‘’soul rangers’’ are forced to play with other classes to be accepted in full aspects of the game.

Cheers^^ and when u decided to ask us about our opinions, then listen to us, or you will be forced in near future to delete the whole class, because everybody will play warrior/guardian/elementalist…

HoMaki.4813:

Dear ANET workers, administrators and such,
we (players) ’ve made xxx threads about pets and problems with them,
and we are really frustrated with your answers.

Just say – ‘’We have no clue what we have done and we messed this class fully.
So we are looking for your (players) opinions.’’ (As we know, this topic is about that..)

That is not constructive in the slightest. Just because they ask for our opinion, does not mean they don’t have ideas of their own.

HoMaki.4813:

So, then LISTEN TO US – why ’d u have to screw mechanics from gw1 – where players could choose between use pet, or not to use it.

It’s a new game, and they do things differently. That doesn’t mean they can’t learn from GW1, which was a really good game, but also not without it’s faults.

HoMaki.4813:

It’s simple – remove pet, or at least make that, we can choose to have it with us or not.
If the pet is active – split dmg, if it isnt – give back that dmg to the character.

A lot of players chose to play a ranger, because of the pet. That is one of the things a lot of MMO players enjoy: Having an animal companion follow you around. It’s cute, I get it. So removing said pet is not the solution.

Vox Hollow.2736:

I mean more like;
An RPG Tank leverages their survivability for the benefit of others through Taunt and aggro systems. A MOBA tank leverages their survivability for the benefit of others through mechanics like Towers and Carry. A FPS tank leverages their survivability for the benefit of others through capture point dynamics giving meaning to location.

These games feature classes who specialize in ‘survivability’, but there are unique mechanical support systems in place to give that a meaningful structure and constant way to benefit the team. It’s not; “Oh they just do the same thing everyone else can do, but if things start to go sour they might be able to continue doing it for a slightly longer period of time”.

In those games you defend yourself on behalf of others, in this game you defend yourself…just to defend yourself.

So, part of me wonders if GW2 needs a thing like that, or should try to downplay and phase out these sorts of character building choices if there isn’t going to be any place with actual gameplay for it outside of sPvP bunkering.

PvE: I don’t see a problem with the Ranger class being forgiving and good at soloing content (neither of which is wanted in top-tier speed-based efficiency play). Tanky pets do grab aggro against many npc mobs, and if you go down, tanky pets give a good chance at a self rez. Basically, rangers bring a safety net… the kind that the high-flying 100% efficiency damage focused groups don’t ever need. For those kinds of elitist groups the tanky pets and tanky rangers shouldn’t be part of the discussion, that should be more focused on tools to keep high damage pets in the fight or maintain high ranger dps.

PvP/WvW: I don’t think we will ever get a taunt button, but it would be nice if pets were noticeable enough to force enemies to make a conscious decision about whether they wanted to try and kill the ranger while suffering from the pet or whether they needed to take out the pet first… in a way tanking by distraction. If the pet was a reliable damage over time or if the pet was more punishing like a gambit (enemy doesn’t gain endurance, enemy takes more damage, enemy does less damage) then the player might actually be forced to deal with it. I don’t see the ranger himself getting any new mechanical support system other than staying alive to contest circles, revive allies, and continue to use our support/control abilities.

Who does my Ranger need to talk to in order to learn how to do what the Toxic Knights do with their greatsword skills?

I’d love to have that 5 second evade while moving and spinning attack. Also that nifty AoE 4 second knockdown.

I guess I should try to remember to bring my Signet of Capture next time.

mtpelion.4562:

Who does my Ranger need to talk to in order to learn how to do what the Toxic Knights do with their greatsword skills?

I’d love to have that 5 second evade while moving and spinning attack. Also that nifty AoE 4 second knockdown.

I guess I should try to remember to bring my Signet of Capture next time.

Most toxic courtiers skills are great!
Our bow working somewhat like the Assassin’s and our GS like the knight’s would be great, imho!
:D

I think this was proposed a long, long time ago, but this is my take on it:

Specific Game Mode
PvX

Proposal Overview
Give pet families a unique random proc effect, like a pet sigil.

Goal of Proposal
To make up for the fact that most sigils and foods do not affect the pet, perhaps a unique “pet sigil” per family would be good. Differentiate pets and their roles further, making pet selection more than just choosing “best damage” or “most likely to survive.” Make pet swapping between different types of pets a more interesting tactical decision. Make some pets more of a noticeable nuisance to enemy players or more of a beneficial partner to rangers. Give default pets more utility.

Proposal Functionality
These would function like sigils on pets with appropriate cooldowns (or alternatively could be added as a low chance to proc on the auto-attack like the devourer’s poison chance.)

Examples:
When a dog hits a target, chance to drain some endurance.
When a spider hits a target, chance to convert enemy boon to condition.
When a porcine hits a target, chance to grant random boon to ranger.
When a cat hits a moving target, chance to cause bleeding (or torment).
When a moa gets a kill (or the ranger), the Moa heals nearby allies a small amount.

Associated Risks
Balance. Some procs would be universally useful, while others would be far more useful in PvP modes. Randomness is not universally welcomed, especially at high level play. Pets need to be able to reliably hit, which is a current issue. Where would descriptive information about these be displayed… a new buff icon on the pet? Passive moas could be used for passive aoe healing.

PvE:
I have no real interest in efficiency play. I just don’t think Ranger is very good at anything you’ve listed, or there just isn’t much of a meaningful place for it in this game.

• What makes or breaks Solo Classes in general is holding your own versus content that requires a group, not just being slightly better at things other people can solo. Ranger feels like it’s lacking effectiveness and context in comparison to other solo pet classes I’ve played (FFXI’s Beastmaster).

• The functionality is there in theory for ‘pet defends teammate’ gameplay, but they pulled the rug out from under it offering no overarching control of aggro or targets to defend like clothies. GW2’s iteration just feels random, sloppy and kind of pointless in comparison to other off-tank pet classes I’ve played (WoW’s Hunter).

• What makes for a good safety net is not just living through the wipe, but being able to do something about it above and beyond what others can do. Regen, swiftness, and one not entirely terrible rez skill not exactly the stuff of being a natural tide turner. I’ve never played somebody who was solely a safety net, because it’s not much fun only feeling useful when something goes wrong.

PvP:
I agree the pet needs to be targeted more often, and I do think that would satisfy giving a reason to choose more tank-like pets in PvP formats. However, I don’t think that resolves much of anything for other formats, or Ranger’s inability to leverage their survivability for other’s sake.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Search and Rescue is a group-oriented shout skill which is not meant to do diddly squat for ourselves and more for someone who goes down during combat and is not being focused on so the pet and dive in and help them up. Which, notably, implies the pet is expendable for this and you are not.

I’ve heard many friends of mine often complain, that Search and Rescue is a bit unreliable. That the pet doesn’t always help people up. Is it still unreliable?

I wouldn’t know, I have not yet really experienced it doing that. I have had it bug out in a good way on Marionette Platform fights (i.e., jump through the barriers to the other platform for reviving). I’ve not had it just sit there and do nothing . . .

I have had my Downed Skill #3 (Lick Wounds) fail to do anything once a launch was landed on me, or if I happen to be on a slope. The pet will stand over me but no effect. So, this is probably a related issue and what others talk about with “unreliable”, I think?

I don’t know if the pet shadowstepping to the closest downed player would do anything different since it seems to be a problem activating the revive, and it would also kinda sorta make a difference in events where someone can take out the pet before it got there, maybe? Hard to say.

RoyalPredator.9163:

To be honest, TORMENT is one if not the best “Hunter condition” available.
If it not stops/slows down the target, it bleeds him out. So LB/GS shall have it.

What about moving all the pet-shouts to the Pet Control Bar?
Is it really reasonable to put them into the ultility slots? I don’t think so.
I’ts like I can’t start the car engine in the morning because I’ve already used

1. Wake Up!
2. Flush-da-Poop
3. Boilin’ Coffee
   and then the only elite remain
4. [MONDAY]

One might look again into my Skill Suggestions on the early pages….

I find it funny, how tons of pages later a discussion arises arount longbows + torment, when I suggested lots of pages earlier already with my skill suggestions to give Rangers more Torment – especially with a redesign of the Hunter’s Shot by removign the stealth effect and adding torment to it, making Rangers more like the toxic alliance rangers in regard of their skills, which spam you literally full with poison, bleeds and torment.

This shows me again, how many people don’t really read skill suggestions and don’t really think things well through, that something that someone suggests really might be better, than they personally think, cause of them self reviewing the made ideas from a different viewpoint perhaps, than the person, who has written the idea…

As a reminder:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Collaborative-Development-Ranger-Profession/page/3#post3683330

Here is what i see from anet.

1. We will not remove or allow options to exclude the pet from ranger game play.

2. We acknowledge that pet F skills are bugged and that pets cannot hit moving targets.

3. Because pet skills are coded with the same coding as mobs, we cannot or will not be able to fix pet skills.

I don’t understand what else needs to be said. Unwillingness to compromise on 1 or 3 maks it impossible for rangers to get brought to the level of other classes. Other games, including upcoming launches, don’t force rangers into pets, but again, Anet needs to be different just to be different. Just as with perma stealth.

Yoh.8469:

I sympathize with your position, but for different reasons.
I just think that pets are exceedingly generic by being pigeonholed into just being a DPS add-on. I’d like to see much more variation, pets that were designed more for defense or support.
Currently it’s more that they are designed for DPS, and their F2 might support you a little bit, as after thoughts.
But they clearly weren’t designed for that purpose from the ground up, and it shows.
They suck at it.

But fat chance since they simply reused their clearly inept animal AI.
I wish they took a page from a lot of the more recent mobs when it comes to AI and skill design.

I agree. I would love to see changes to the pet system that include making pets useful and valuable for purposes other than damage. None of that would matter much without either fixing the AI or tweaking basic pet mechanics to overcome the AI shortcomings, so that has to be priority. But having a greater variety of pet usage would open up some new overall build options for the class, and that wouldn’t be a bad thing. But making such a change would also require the pet system in general to no longer be based on the incorrect assumption that the pet will deal 30% of the class’s damage.

In my opinion, the amount of damage we rely on from the pet in general should be reduced, scale based on BM traiting, and we should have our own more reliable damage increased (all of which has been repeatedly proposed in this thread and elsewhere). And the pets should then be given increased utility usefulness in general, and individual pets should have their own flavor for what they can do, with greater disparity between individual pets and pet families.

Orpheal.8263:

RoyalPredator.9163:

To be honest, TORMENT is one if not the best “Hunter condition” available.
If it not stops/slows down the target, it bleeds him out. So LB/GS shall have it.

What about moving all the pet-shouts to the Pet Control Bar?
Is it really reasonable to put them into the ultility slots? I don’t think so.
I’ts like I can’t start the car engine in the morning because I’ve already used

1. Wake Up!
2. Flush-da-Poop
3. Boilin’ Coffee
   and then the only elite remain
4. [MONDAY]

One might look again into my Skill Suggestions on the early pages….

I find it funny, how tons of pages later a discussion arises arount longbows + torment, when I suggested lots of pages earlier already with my skill suggestions to give Rangers more Torment – especially with a redesign of the Hunter’s Shot by removign the stealth effect and adding torment to it, making Rangers more like the toxic alliance rangers in regard of their skills, which spam you literally full with poison, bleeds and torment.

This shows me again, how many people don’t really read skill suggestions and don’t really think things well through, that something that someone suggests really might be better, than they personally think, cause of them self reviewing the made ideas from a different viewpoint perhaps, than the person, who has written the idea…

As a reminder:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Collaborative-Development-Ranger-Profession/page/3#post3683330

Well, most of us did not read every suggestion so don’t let it bother you . Besides, the past track record and developer comments indicates that nothing of lasting value will be done anytime soon so don’t get yer pants in a bunch with the players. Most of us are frustrated as well so take it out on the people who put more resources and effort into the art and graphics, npcs and game economy as opposed to professions.

What kind of stuff could they add/change to the class, taht isn’t related to the pets or the damage the class does, to increase the WvW utility for Rangers? Something needs to be done to make this class more valuable to the zerg and more organized (10+) groups if we’re not going to be able to provide AE or high single target burst. We need more control and group buffs.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

HoMaki.4813:

It’s simple – remove pet, or at least make that, we can choose to have it with us or not.
If the pet is active – split dmg, if it isnt – give back that dmg to the character.

A lot of players chose to play a ranger, because of the pet. That is one of the things a lot of MMO players enjoy: Having an animal companion follow you around. It’s cute, I get it. So removing said pet is not the solution.

And alot haven’t. Point still stands. The pet is both the only enforced aspect of the ranger class and the worst one.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

HoMaki.4813:

It’s simple – remove pet, or at least make that, we can choose to have it with us or not.
If the pet is active – split dmg, if it isnt – give back that dmg to the character.

A lot of players chose to play a ranger, because of the pet. That is one of the things a lot of MMO players enjoy: Having an animal companion follow you around. It’s cute, I get it. So removing said pet is not the solution.

And alot haven’t. Point still stands. The pet is both the only enforced aspect of the ranger class and the worst one.

Fact is pet mechanic is not working proprely: this means the effectiveness of rangers in any game mode and any situation is weaker than any other class to start of, the only thing that compensate is the ability of the player itself.

The solution is simple: rework the pet mechanic and see how it goes; if this is not possible or the rework will not go well then there’s no reason for keeping the pet.

The point is: Anet will you try to rework the pet? There’s no inbetween, you solve a problem or you don’t, there’s no other option.