Guild Wars 2

Chrispy.5641:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Chrispy.5641:

I want to be useful, not just reviving downed people. I want to be the “I got this” guy.
And please stop this “I don’t want to be a second …” nonsense.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’ll stop it when people stop saying we need to be as good as X class at Y. No, what we need is for our class to work better at what it does or what it theoretically does.

I wont stop stating that the ranger has to be competitive in PvE. I wont say “Oh, ele FGS so OP, ranger needs that too” but other classes can deal way more damage, or to keep it more general, other classes are way more effective in what they do than we are able to do and that has to be changed.

Looks like we are fine at dealing damage in PvE. Youtube Proves it!!!

Though, if you don’t want to bend over backwards when it comes to dealing a large amount of damage like that video,…the first step would be to nerf what makes us that strong (signets). The second step would be to nerf what is making the pet that strong (signets and Companion’s Might). The third step would be to finally increase the damage that weapons do, but, you’re foolish if you think that anything’s going to get more than a 10% damage increase from those nerfs.

Yeaah, you have an uptime of 6 seconds and a cooldown of 40 seconds minimum.
Also it’s just spamming sword autoattack again. Ah yeah, and Maul.

I never said it wasn’t a boring way to play. The fact that we can do that at all though, is the reason why the damage split exists between us and our pets, why our weapons deal so little damage compared to other professions, and why everyone thinks we can’t play as well as other professions. The video proves we can. Now what would you suggest we change about it so we don’t have to use 1 trick ponies just to compete with other professions?

And the suggest buff cannot come without the suggested nerfs as well.

No, this video just shows how we could do. If the pet would hit all the time, never dies, with just one enemy who isn’t moving. That’s not how this works. It will never work that way if you aren’t playing vs. dummies.

And changes I would suggest? Still this one: Awesome Suggestion

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Chrispy.5641:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Chrispy.5641:

I want to be useful, not just reviving downed people. I want to be the “I got this” guy.
And please stop this “I don’t want to be a second …” nonsense.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’ll stop it when people stop saying we need to be as good as X class at Y. No, what we need is for our class to work better at what it does or what it theoretically does.

I wont stop stating that the ranger has to be competitive in PvE. I wont say “Oh, ele FGS so OP, ranger needs that too” but other classes can deal way more damage, or to keep it more general, other classes are way more effective in what they do than we are able to do and that has to be changed.

Looks like we are fine at dealing damage in PvE. Youtube Proves it!!!

Though, if you don’t want to bend over backwards when it comes to dealing a large amount of damage like that video,…the first step would be to nerf what makes us that strong (signets). The second step would be to nerf what is making the pet that strong (signets and Companion’s Might). The third step would be to finally increase the damage that weapons do, but, you’re foolish if you think that anything’s going to get more than a 10% damage increase from those nerfs.

Yeaah, you have an uptime of 6 seconds and a cooldown of 40 seconds minimum.
Also it’s just spamming sword autoattack again. Ah yeah, and Maul.

I never said it wasn’t a boring way to play. The fact that we can do that at all though, is the reason why the damage split exists between us and our pets, why our weapons deal so little damage compared to other professions, and why everyone thinks we can’t play as well as other professions. The video proves we can. Now what would you suggest we change about it so we don’t have to use 1 trick ponies just to compete with other professions?

And the suggest buff cannot come without the suggested nerfs as well.

No, this video just shows how we could do. If the pet would hit all the time, never dies, with just one enemy who isn’t moving. That’s not how this works. It will never work that way if you aren’t playing vs. dummies.

And changes I would suggest? Still this one: Awesome Suggestion

And there is a 100% chance of that buff still, coming with a nerf. We will no longer have that split focus between us and our pets, and you can definitely kiss signets goodbye. And removing pet damage will not automatically mean a 30% damage buff either, since many of our pets can’t even deal that much damage. That’s not the bad thing in this whole discussion. The bad thing through all of this hase been the refusal to accept that fact by people such as yourself.

Chrispy.5641:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Chrispy.5641:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Chrispy.5641:

I want to be useful, not just reviving downed people. I want to be the “I got this” guy.
And please stop this “I don’t want to be a second …” nonsense.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’ll stop it when people stop saying we need to be as good as X class at Y. No, what we need is for our class to work better at what it does or what it theoretically does.

I wont stop stating that the ranger has to be competitive in PvE. I wont say “Oh, ele FGS so OP, ranger needs that too” but other classes can deal way more damage, or to keep it more general, other classes are way more effective in what they do than we are able to do and that has to be changed.

Looks like we are fine at dealing damage in PvE. Youtube Proves it!!!

Though, if you don’t want to bend over backwards when it comes to dealing a large amount of damage like that video,…the first step would be to nerf what makes us that strong (signets). The second step would be to nerf what is making the pet that strong (signets and Companion’s Might). The third step would be to finally increase the damage that weapons do, but, you’re foolish if you think that anything’s going to get more than a 10% damage increase from those nerfs.

Yeaah, you have an uptime of 6 seconds and a cooldown of 40 seconds minimum.
Also it’s just spamming sword autoattack again. Ah yeah, and Maul.

I never said it wasn’t a boring way to play. The fact that we can do that at all though, is the reason why the damage split exists between us and our pets, why our weapons deal so little damage compared to other professions, and why everyone thinks we can’t play as well as other professions. The video proves we can. Now what would you suggest we change about it so we don’t have to use 1 trick ponies just to compete with other professions?

And the suggest buff cannot come without the suggested nerfs as well.

No, this video just shows how we could do. If the pet would hit all the time, never dies, with just one enemy who isn’t moving. That’s not how this works. It will never work that way if you aren’t playing vs. dummies.

And changes I would suggest? Still this one: Awesome Suggestion

And there is a 100% chance of that buff still, coming with a nerf. We will no longer have that split focus between us and our pets, and you can definitely kiss signets goodbye. And removing pet damage will not automatically mean a 30% damage buff either, since many of our pets can’t even deal that much damage. That’s not the bad thing in this whole discussion. The bad thing through all of this hase been the refusal to accept that fact by people such as yourself.

It’s ok if they have to tone some things down. They could as example lower the damage we get through sigils and buff the damage the pet gains, so that beastmaster still stays viable.
As for the damagebuff: We would get 30% of our damage back. It takes away some versatility (no more tank pet + zerker ranger or tank ranger + zerker pet), but still, we get back the damage that has been cut off in order to justify the pet. And if I’m not mistaken, it must be around 30%.

But to be honest, I can’t see how thw ranger sigils should be OP in PvE if the ele can hit for 8k with his LH autoattack.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Chrispy.5641:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Chrispy.5641:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Chrispy.5641:

I want to be useful, not just reviving downed people. I want to be the “I got this” guy.
And please stop this “I don’t want to be a second …” nonsense.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’ll stop it when people stop saying we need to be as good as X class at Y. No, what we need is for our class to work better at what it does or what it theoretically does.

I wont stop stating that the ranger has to be competitive in PvE. I wont say “Oh, ele FGS so OP, ranger needs that too” but other classes can deal way more damage, or to keep it more general, other classes are way more effective in what they do than we are able to do and that has to be changed.

Looks like we are fine at dealing damage in PvE. Youtube Proves it!!!

Though, if you don’t want to bend over backwards when it comes to dealing a large amount of damage like that video,…the first step would be to nerf what makes us that strong (signets). The second step would be to nerf what is making the pet that strong (signets and Companion’s Might). The third step would be to finally increase the damage that weapons do, but, you’re foolish if you think that anything’s going to get more than a 10% damage increase from those nerfs.

Yeaah, you have an uptime of 6 seconds and a cooldown of 40 seconds minimum.
Also it’s just spamming sword autoattack again. Ah yeah, and Maul.

I never said it wasn’t a boring way to play. The fact that we can do that at all though, is the reason why the damage split exists between us and our pets, why our weapons deal so little damage compared to other professions, and why everyone thinks we can’t play as well as other professions. The video proves we can. Now what would you suggest we change about it so we don’t have to use 1 trick ponies just to compete with other professions?

And the suggest buff cannot come without the suggested nerfs as well.

No, this video just shows how we could do. If the pet would hit all the time, never dies, with just one enemy who isn’t moving. That’s not how this works. It will never work that way if you aren’t playing vs. dummies.

And changes I would suggest? Still this one: Awesome Suggestion

And there is a 100% chance of that buff still, coming with a nerf. We will no longer have that split focus between us and our pets, and you can definitely kiss signets goodbye. And removing pet damage will not automatically mean a 30% damage buff either, since many of our pets can’t even deal that much damage. That’s not the bad thing in this whole discussion. The bad thing through all of this hase been the refusal to accept that fact by people such as yourself.

It’s ok if they have to tone some things down. They could as example lower the damage we get through sigils and buff the damage the pet gains, so that beastmaster still stays viable.
As for the damagebuff: We would get 30% of our damage back. It takes away some versatility (no more tank pet + zerker ranger or tank ranger + zerker pet), but still, we get back the damage that has been cut off in order to justify the pet. And if I’m not mistaken, it must be around 30%.

Or, they could just buff our pets with Sigils, Runes, Potions, and food to start with.

No matter what the actual damage split is between Ranger and Pet (even if its 99%/1%), we benefit the least from the stat increases from all of these items.

For example, a Sigil of force. 5% damage increase right?….WRONG!
Ranger ::: 70% + 5% = 73.5%
Pet ::: 30% + 0% = 30%
Total = 103.5% instead of 105% damage. And if the pet is dead, our damage is even worse.

Stuff like that needs to be addressed too.

Chrispy.5641:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Chrispy.5641:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Chrispy.5641:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Chrispy.5641:

I want to be useful, not just reviving downed people. I want to be the “I got this” guy.
And please stop this “I don’t want to be a second …” nonsense.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’ll stop it when people stop saying we need to be as good as X class at Y. No, what we need is for our class to work better at what it does or what it theoretically does.

I wont stop stating that the ranger has to be competitive in PvE. I wont say “Oh, ele FGS so OP, ranger needs that too” but other classes can deal way more damage, or to keep it more general, other classes are way more effective in what they do than we are able to do and that has to be changed.

Looks like we are fine at dealing damage in PvE. Youtube Proves it!!!

Though, if you don’t want to bend over backwards when it comes to dealing a large amount of damage like that video,…the first step would be to nerf what makes us that strong (signets). The second step would be to nerf what is making the pet that strong (signets and Companion’s Might). The third step would be to finally increase the damage that weapons do, but, you’re foolish if you think that anything’s going to get more than a 10% damage increase from those nerfs.

Yeaah, you have an uptime of 6 seconds and a cooldown of 40 seconds minimum.
Also it’s just spamming sword autoattack again. Ah yeah, and Maul.

I never said it wasn’t a boring way to play. The fact that we can do that at all though, is the reason why the damage split exists between us and our pets, why our weapons deal so little damage compared to other professions, and why everyone thinks we can’t play as well as other professions. The video proves we can. Now what would you suggest we change about it so we don’t have to use 1 trick ponies just to compete with other professions?

And the suggest buff cannot come without the suggested nerfs as well.

No, this video just shows how we could do. If the pet would hit all the time, never dies, with just one enemy who isn’t moving. That’s not how this works. It will never work that way if you aren’t playing vs. dummies.

And changes I would suggest? Still this one: Awesome Suggestion

And there is a 100% chance of that buff still, coming with a nerf. We will no longer have that split focus between us and our pets, and you can definitely kiss signets goodbye. And removing pet damage will not automatically mean a 30% damage buff either, since many of our pets can’t even deal that much damage. That’s not the bad thing in this whole discussion. The bad thing through all of this hase been the refusal to accept that fact by people such as yourself.

It’s ok if they have to tone some things down. They could as example lower the damage we get through sigils and buff the damage the pet gains, so that beastmaster still stays viable.
As for the damagebuff: We would get 30% of our damage back. It takes away some versatility (no more tank pet + zerker ranger or tank ranger + zerker pet), but still, we get back the damage that has been cut off in order to justify the pet. And if I’m not mistaken, it must be around 30%.

Or, they could just buff our pets with Sigils, Runes, Potions, and food to start with.

No matter what the actual damage split is between Ranger and Pet (even if its 99%/1%), we benefit the least from the stat increases from all of these items.

For example, a Sigil of force. 5% damage increase right?….WRONG!
Ranger ::: 70% + 5% = 73.5%
Pet ::: 30% + 0% = 30%
Total = 103.5% instead of 105% damage. And if the pet is dead, our damage is even worse.

Stuff like that needs to be addressed too.

That’s an issue that has to be addressed, yes. But I don’t want to be dependent on an AI if I haven’t chosen to. That’s why I like Orca’s idea of reverting the damage to the ranger with the optional ability to shift some power back to the pet. While his post is pretty rough, I think it’s the right way to go.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

And changes I would suggest? Still this one: Awesome Suggestion

Proposed something similar a bit earlier, still need to develop it since it can mess a lot of skills and traits.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

That’s an issue that has to be addressed, yes. But I don’t want to be dependent on an AI if I haven’t chosen to.

Well, that’s easy. Don’t play the profession whose defining mechanic is an animal companion. It was your choice to make.

You’re asking them to remove the rangers primary mechanic. How is this a valid suggestion?

This argument that pets should be removed from rangers is akin to asking attunement swap be removed from eles or clones removed from mesmers.

You’re not asking for development with this suggestion. You’re asking for an entire redesign of the class.

Have you even considered some people like the pet class or the initial vision of the ranger cruising along two years or so now?

The ranger can be made to be up to par with all the other classes without any dramatic redesign of the class as a whole.

Rangers can already compete. We need a little work, not much.

Yet you want to pull the rug from under those people because you want a different class from the one we have now.

The pet does not need to be removed from the ranger. It certainly does need to be improved upon.

If anything, we need more pets. We need more Southsun Cove style updates that introduce awesome new pets for rangers.

Gem store pets that become available in your home instance upon purchase. New pets in old places.

Pet’s aren’t a problem as a mechanic. It’s a problem in implementation. It needs some work, yeah?

Pet Syngery? When will my kitten pet reach any WWW player, even if they’re laughing kitten a fort wall? 30% DMG POOF GONE, no way they can fix these situations…
Yeah, teach birds how to FLY…
As you see below, Stealth (which’s useability starts from 5s, no less!) goes PBS, since its the nearly perfect way to distract enemies and retreat/bite from nothing.
Hunter’s Shot goes tricky this time.

CETheLucid.3964:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

That’s an issue that has to be addressed, yes. But I don’t want to be dependent on an AI if I haven’t chosen to.

Well, that’s easy. Don’t play the profession whose defining mechanic is an animal companion. It was your choice to make.

You’re asking them to remove the rangers primary mechanic. How is this a valid suggestion?

This argument that pets should be removed from rangers is akin to asking attunement swap be removed from eles or clones removed from mesmers.

You’re not asking for development with this suggestion. You’re asking for an entire redesign of the class.

Have you even considered some people like the pet class or the initial vision of the ranger cruising along two years or so now?

The ranger can be made to be up to par with all the other classes without any dramatic redesign of the class as a whole.

Rangers can already compete. We need a little work, not much.

Yet you want to pull the rug from under those people because you want a different class from the one we have now.

The pet does not need to be removed from the ranger. It certainly does need to be improved upon.

If anything, we need more pets. We need more Southsun Cove style updates that introduce awesome new pets for rangers.

Gem store pets that become available in your home instance upon purchase. New pets in old places.

Pet’s aren’t a problem as a mechanic. It’s a problem in implementation. It needs some work, yeah?

I’ll ask you to clarify this gemstore idea because I’m completely freaked out that someone could suggest that. I really hope you meant skins and not new pets with new skills.

arkealia.2713:

I’ll ask you to clarify this gemstore idea because I’m completely freaked out that someone could suggest that. I really hope you meant skins and not new pets with new skills.

The former, not the later. Good catch. Thank you. That definitely warranted clarification and scrutiny.

Chrispy.5641:

snip

2.) Even if they changed barrage to reflect a percentage of the damage from each shot, like it should, skills that hit repeatedly like this are always going to be unfairly impacted by the skill. This is why barrage will likely never work. But even if you want to pretend it works well, the risks associated with it aren’t worth the reward you get out of it.

3.) Stealth only wins because the skill has a purpose and works as intended. Barrage on the other hand is so far from useful it’s easier to remove it. If you’re deadset on leaving the Ranger where they have been for a 1.5 years, see my suggestion at the bottom.

4.) No, it doesn’t. We have the sustained DPS model right now. It’s the condi bunker builds. That’s a sustained DPS model. Our power options aren’t nearly as effective and no power option for any class (in any game…) will work without burst and AE. And again, I’m not asking for a 15k kill shot like Warriors have. Mechanically the kill shot skill fits the theme of a Ranger, the damage can be scaled back to be whatever.

5.) My suggestion is to remove the other channeled skill. So you’re not debating anything I’m talking about. A long range shot compliments any range it’s used. I have absolutely no idea what you’re getting at with your second comment. Warriors aren’t using it at melee range.

6.) A condi build doesn’t apply pressure in a large zerg. It doesn’t even apply pressure in a 10v10. We all know trap builds are ‘amazing’ for roaming and dueling. But beyond that they fall flat. They’ve always fallen flat.

7.) Your numbers are wildly off. 2.5k power is pretty average if you aren’t running glass (which you aren’t) and only yields a range of 4.5-9k. depending on crit. But yes, if you consider the damage only for the activation time, the DPS is high. And also assume they sit in it. But the damage is spread out over 6 seconds iirc? Which pushes it to below shortbow damage. Last time I did the math 6 months or so ago anyway.

To fix barrage just make it apply 2 seconds of cripple a shot, make it deal 3x the damage per wave, and make it shoot 1/3rd the number of waves. That will solve your retaliation problem. Same DPS, higher burst, still allows for perma cripple (application of a 3s cripple every 1.5-1.8seconds).

Can somewhat be used to kite at that duration, but still not that effectively. It will resolve the retaliation problem. Doesn’t change the DPS any. Will impact the condi game some because less applications of bleed if you take the trait.

So when is Allie wrapping this thread up? so we can go to the next phase?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Chrispy.5641:

4) Sustained works just fine for me in PvE, and WvW (and even though I don’t play PvP, the most popular Ranger builds are currently a sustain build). Traps (our AE) also works just fine for me. Using the Longbow for its intended purpose (max. Range) works fine for me as well. Do you have any examples for why Sustained doesn’t work? If you want to bring the whole “Dps is all that matters” into the argument, go on ahead, but DPS is not all that matters. I can run through dungeons just fine in sustain and defensive builds, I run with other people who think the same, and I don’t need the 1% Top, World Record Dungeon Runners to come up to me and tell me otherwise.

Strangely, this is how I feel as well mostly. And it jives with my experience . . . but likewise we both agree there are tweaks/changes needed. Not just “moar DPS/Burst” . . . it’s why I’ve focused a lot on the pet (the one definitive point we really and sorely need some improvements) and on making us more useful to the group without necessarily going “Dee-pee-ess” and still winding up less useful than a warrior in that place.

6) Yes, Atherakhia, They all do, and it is the way I play in WvW. I use traps, Torch and Warhorn(when attacking), and Longbow(when defending) to put pressure on Enemies. I would explain how I do it (for the fifth time in this thread), but you don’t seem to want to listen. And the CDI exists because the Ranger is less than Optimal, not because we need to dramatize every aspect of the class, and completely overhaul everything about it.

So I’m not the only one who uses Longbow for pressure? Granted I swapped Torch for Warhorn because “Call of the Wild” was more useful for a blast finisher than some burning (to me), and getting into melee with a zerg seems like asking for a free trip to the local Waypoint.

I don’t use traps so much though, not traited for them. I’m traited for basic/general PvE. Strangely, this works for me.

I will agree with you and Chrispy in general… some things for this class don’t need dramatic changes. Pets for example don’t need to be removed from the class. They just need their mechanics to be reliable and some AE cover. Condis could use some cover, the addition of torment would be great, but also pretty solid.

But power builds?
WvW overall?

These are areas the majority of the player base (ranger or not) laugh at when you mention them in public. Rangers aren’t close to anything but being phased out in WvW currently. Number crunching and trait tweaks aren’t going to solve these issues.

Why do you feel people rank Rangers 8th out of 8 classes so consistently? Why do you think guilds that recruit Rangers ask them to reroll before they’re allowed to join?

BARRAGE

Zorpi.5904:

Barrage … doesn’t fit well in longbow.

(not just pointed at you, just quoted you because you were the ‘somanyest’ pointing at this)

I just have to come and say this: “Barrage is the ONLY skill on the longbow that actually has ANYthing to do with longbow warfare”.
Saying ‘it doesn’t fit’ on the longbow is saying that longbows have always been used for their accuracy over long range. Barrage actually defined Hoplite and Roman defensive tactics. It’s like saying that ‘firing squad musket warfare’ was implemented for accurately shooting down a lot of targets at the same time. It’s like saying the gatling gun and machinegun mechanics ‘do not fit’ on a gun. It’s like saying Carpet bombing and Clusterboms weren’t noteworthy ranged tactics.

I do not know where the ‘heck’ you people get your references, when it comes to weapon skill design, but it sure ain’t reality. Now all is fair in the world of fantasy, I get that, but really saying that ‘Barrage’ doesn’t ‘FIT’ on a longbow ?!?!?

I don’t exactly think 1500 range fighters should be given a 15k-20k death shot, or any capability for such, personally. Ranged fighting is too safe. Maybe a ranged, toned down version of maul could replace rapid fire, but it should be a little more limited in its ability to be buffed with first attack opener traits (I wouldn’t want to see it top 12-13k opener even on a berserker). The very short cooldown (Ie. if given one identical to maul) would then enable for consistent pressure in the 5k region. Again, 1500 range is just too safe, and a target should not be 95% dead before he can even close the distance or react. We already have an assassin style class, thank you very much. Also this ranged maul equivalent could be given a unique projectile graphic, maybe have spiritual bird attached to it like Swoop.

What the ranger needs for longbow in addition to that IMO is more distance creators, removal of the longbow AA limitations, and maybe some increased projectile speed and some kind of improvement for barrage.

As for distance creators Longbow number 3 for example could have backward leap effect similar to sword 2 in addition to its stealth, which would give longbow users a lot more repositioning utility while still retaining a level that melee players can fight against with wise play and timings.

Also all ranger stealth capabilities (which thankfully is not much) should be modified to include the pet (that is ranger side only, pet stealths should not stealth the ranger) so that pets can’t be used as a reference point to determine the location of a stealthed ranger.

Add a similar distance creator to shortbow only minus stealth and those lb/sb full ranged builds should be fine.

After that, the only issues that remain are fixing the pet and trait fixes. To the pet issue I say the usual: Improved AI if possible, but in a more immediately tangible change all melee pets need to be given at least one distance closer skill (this is not negotiable IMO, it is a literal necessity for melee pets to contribute when your enemies start kiting), improved projectile speed on ranged pets, and improved f2 responsiveness (which we are apparently going to receive soon anyways.)

As for traits, there are already plenty of good suggestions out there.

I also believe rangers should have more diverse condition removal options. For a man of the nature, we have no natural healing salves or anything that can remove specific conditions outside a roll poison and blind removal trait. We need something to guarantee a purge of immobilize in fitting with mobility being a strength of the class, and if possible we should have options to cure burning specifically. (OP Aloe Vera!)

AEFA.9035:

So when is Allie wrapping this thread up? so we can go to the next phase?

1) Denial and Isolation – Check
2) Anger – Check
3) Bargaining – Check
4) Depression – Check

all that’s left now is

5) Acceptance

Many of the improvements people want are currently available with specific builds.

• People want pets to cleave (drakes do that).
• People want pets to have auto-attacks larger than 130 range (birds do that).
• People want pets to be faster (Quickening Screech, signet of the hunt, agility training, Fortifying Bond, Sic ’em, etc).
• People want pets to take less damage from AoE (Unpopular Bark Skin, high uptime Protection from so-called “worthless” untraited Guard)

We have tools to make our pets better, but most people don’t want to be forced to take them. I do take them and my pets (even birds) are up most of the time in WvW fights that are 30v30 or less.

Sandpit.3467:

AEFA.9035:

So when is Allie wrapping this thread up? so we can go to the next phase?

1) Denial and Isolation – Check
2) Anger – Check
3) Bargaining – Check
4) Depression – Check

all that’s left now is

5) Acceptance

Do we have cancer?

What Should Tanky Pets Do?
To the people saying that no skill or trait should harm our pet, how else do you propose we take advantage of tanky pet strengths?

• +30% crit damage is a great trait for a cat because it takes advantage of the cat’s high damage and high crit-chance. The same trait is a very weak choice for a bear.
• Empathic Bond, Protect Me, and Signet of Renewal, these are the opposite. These abilities can take full advantage of a tanky pet’s massive healthpool, but might be too punishing for a squishy pet to handle. These are clearly weaker choices if you use a squishy pet.

Some traits will always be better with one pet vs another, and tanky pets should have options too. What should tanky pets offer that they don’t now? What would turn bowbear from ridicule to utility?

On the subject of Tanky Pets, I will just remind people that when a 5-target AoE lands, the selected target gets hit first and the other 4 targets are based on proximity, so… occasionally, randomly, accidentally, and invisibly, your pets and spirits can take hits that would otherwise have hit players which is something to remember in tightly stacked AoE carpeted WvW zerg warfare. If a 30k bear takes a 3k hit instead of an elementalist, isn’t that a good thing? (In the pic below the bear was the selected target but there were enough spirits in proximity to cap the 5 targets and leave me unharmed.)

misterdevious.6482:

Many of the improvements people want are currently available with specific builds.

• People want pets to cleave (drakes do that).
• People want pets to have auto-attacks larger than 130 range (birds do that).
• People want pets to be faster (Quickening Screech, signet of the hunt, agility training, Fortifying Bond, Sic ’em, etc).
• People want pets to take less damage from AoE (Unpopular Bark Skin, high uptime Protection from so-called “worthless” untraited Guard)

We have tools to make our pets better, but most people don’t want to be forced to take them. I do take them and my pets (even birds) are up most of the time in WvW fights that are 30v30 or less.

And your pet still worth nothing as your ranger! Grats! You have a piece of kitten what not die within a second! You just fully traited on it. Other classes dont need to trait on class mechanics to work and still do more as you. Try a warrior, guardian, necro, ele and feel the sunshine when your mechanic saves you and not you need to save your tool. Btw 30v30 is not too big combat. That is the fight of 2 medium guilds.

Atherakhia.4086:

I will agree with you and Chrispy in general… some things for this class don’t need dramatic changes. Pets for example don’t need to be removed from the class. They just need their mechanics to be reliable and some AE cover. Condis could use some cover, the addition of torment would be great, but also pretty solid.

I agree, Torment would be nice, but I also don’t know if we will get it. Remember, the way conditions are parceled out some classes can inflict them easy and others not at all. Letting more classes get access almost waters down the conditions, and Torment was one of the ones with flavor.

But power builds?
WvW overall?

These are areas the majority of the player base (ranger or not) laugh at when you mention them in public. Rangers aren’t close to anything but being phased out in WvW currently. Number crunching and trait tweaks aren’t going to solve these issues.

Dunno about that. I do know while the zerg is busy taking stuff or going head on into other things, I got decent at snagging camps in the distraction or picking on lone havoc-spreaders. I said it earlier – 1v1 we’re not too bad but we often have trouble finishing what we start.

Why do you feel people rank Rangers 8th out of 8 classes so consistently? Why do you think guilds that recruit Rangers ask them to reroll before they’re allowed to join?

For the first? If I’m going to be completely honest? Memetic pressure. The same way you can throw a line from a certain Queen song on a chat channel sometimes and it’s likely someone will throw the next line in a chain for a bit. People determined the Ranger wasn’t the best option for stuff . . . and it’s been going on long enough it’s mutated into “worst class ever”. (For the second game in a row, though Paragons who weren’t gimmicky messes were often “worst class ever”.)

For the second? Four guilds and none of them asked me to reroll out of being a Ranger, one of them had the leader roll into a ranger – and say it’s probably a lot more fun playing it than a warrior. Which I agree with; it’s a blast sometimes. It’s just not the most effective in all places.

Arghore.8340:

BARRAGE

Zorpi.5904:

Barrage … doesn’t fit well in longbow.

(not just pointed at you, just quoted you because you were the ‘somanyest’ pointing at this)

I just have to come and say this: “Barrage is the ONLY skill on the longbow that actually has ANYthing to do with longbow warfare”.
Saying ‘it doesn’t fit’ on the longbow is saying that longbows have always been used for their accuracy over long range. Barrage actually defined Hoplite and Roman defensive tactics. It’s like saying that ‘firing squad musket warfare’ was implemented for accurately shooting down a lot of targets at the same time. It’s like saying the gatling gun and machinegun mechanics ‘do not fit’ on a gun. It’s like saying Carpet bombing and Clusterboms weren’t noteworthy ranged tactics.

I do not know where the ‘heck’ you people get your references, when it comes to weapon skill design, but it sure ain’t reality. Now all is fair in the world of fantasy, I get that, but really saying that ‘Barrage’ doesn’t ‘FIT’ on a longbow ?!?!?

Are you kidding… you’re seriously trying to use real world scenarios to justify mechanics in a game with wizards and kilrathi…

Barrage doesn’t fit because it simply doesn’t compliment the other 4 skills on the weapon. That’s the issue being raised. I could just as easily point to yabusame and kyudo for the sniper role of the bow.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Atherakhia.4086:

I will agree with you and Chrispy in general… some things for this class don’t need dramatic changes. Pets for example don’t need to be removed from the class. They just need their mechanics to be reliable and some AE cover. Condis could use some cover, the addition of torment would be great, but also pretty solid.

I agree, Torment would be nice, but I also don’t know if we will get it. Remember, the way conditions are parceled out some classes can inflict them easy and others not at all. Letting more classes get access almost waters down the conditions, and Torment was one of the ones with flavor.

But power builds?
WvW overall?

These are areas the majority of the player base (ranger or not) laugh at when you mention them in public. Rangers aren’t close to anything but being phased out in WvW currently. Number crunching and trait tweaks aren’t going to solve these issues.

Dunno about that. I do know while the zerg is busy taking stuff or going head on into other things, I got decent at snagging camps in the distraction or picking on lone havoc-spreaders. I said it earlier – 1v1 we’re not too bad but we often have trouble finishing what we start.

Why do you feel people rank Rangers 8th out of 8 classes so consistently? Why do you think guilds that recruit Rangers ask them to reroll before they’re allowed to join?

For the first? If I’m going to be completely honest? Memetic pressure. The same way you can throw a line from a certain Queen song on a chat channel sometimes and it’s likely someone will throw the next line in a chain for a bit. People determined the Ranger wasn’t the best option for stuff . . . and it’s been going on long enough it’s mutated into “worst class ever”. (For the second game in a row, though Paragons who weren’t gimmicky messes were often “worst class ever”.)

For the second? Four guilds and none of them asked me to reroll out of being a Ranger, one of them had the leader roll into a ranger – and say it’s probably a lot more fun playing it than a warrior. Which I agree with; it’s a blast sometimes. It’s just not the most effective in all places.

Any class can take camps and kill dolyaks though. No one wants their class’s role in WvW to be that of the yak slapper.

And I also don’t buy into the ’it’s all a conspiracy’ angle of the plight of the Ranger. Everyone knows how strong they are at solo roaming. That alone would dispel that theory imo.

But yea, if you don’t agree that’s cool.

McWolfy.5924:

Do we have cancer?

Terminal petastisized tumors. They’ve spread out into all 5 trait lines.

And a total petectomy has been ruled out for treatment.

McWolfy.5924:

And your pet still worth nothing as your ranger! Grats! You have a piece of kitten what not die within a second! You just fully traited on it. Other classes dont need to trait on class mechanics to work and still do more as you. Try a warrior, guardian, necro, ele and feel the sunshine when your mechanic saves you and not you need to save your tool. Btw 30v30 is not too big combat. That is the fight of 2 medium guilds.

If we get the improvements people have asked for, then the default pet might be brought up to where beastmaster pets are now, or be even better. Good change for us in WvW.

But there will still be beastmaster options which will probably still be required if you want any pet to survive in a massive mapblob v mapblob WvW fight. The same people will still be unwilling to take them and they will continue to complain their pets are useless or they will be forced to use a pet they see as suboptimal damage and will complain about that.

Managing attunement swaps is the same regardless of game-mode… managing virtues is not much different in 5v5 or 50v50. Managing pets on the other hand automatically increases in difficulty in zerg fights. Unless they do add a guaranteed option that would provide the same benefit regardless of game mode (like the aspect proposal), then we will always have to take the game-mode into consideration when making choices about our pets.

misterdevious.6482:

McWolfy.5924:

And your pet still worth nothing as your ranger! Grats! You have a piece of kitten what not die within a second! You just fully traited on it. Other classes dont need to trait on class mechanics to work and still do more as you. Try a warrior, guardian, necro, ele and feel the sunshine when your mechanic saves you and not you need to save your tool. Btw 30v30 is not too big combat. That is the fight of 2 medium guilds.

If we get the improvements people have asked for, then the default pet might be brought up to where beastmaster pets are now, or be even better. Good change for us in WvW.

But there will still be beastmaster options which will probably still be required if you want any pet to survive in a massive mapblob v mapblob WvW fight. The same people will still be unwilling to take them and they will continue to complain their pets are useless or they will be forced to use a pet they see as suboptimal damage and will complain about that.

Managing attunement swaps is the same regardless of game-mode… managing virtues is not much different in 5v5 or 50v50. Managing pets on the other hand automatically increases in difficulty in zerg fights. Unless they do add a guaranteed option that would provide the same benefit regardless of game mode (like the aspect proposal), then we will always have to take the game-mode into consideration when making choices about our pets.

Make pets like pve mobs so they scale up depending on how many opponents are near (say within 1500 range)? Juvenile (1 to 15) => Veteran (16-30) => Champion (31 and over). Only applies in wvw.

Juvenile = default stats + whatever amount of BM you have traited
Veteran and Champion = The stats scales up according to your stats (so ranger gear stats will affect pet when they scale up). This means if you want your pet to survive in a zerg you actually have to gear more defensive stats.

I suggested a new Ward behavior mode a few pages back that should specifically help pets act sensibly in zerg vs. verg environments through a procedural behavior set .

@ Misterdevious

That kind of makes me wonder if we’re at a space where we have to look at ‘survivability’ as a group resource fundamentally.

I mean think about it.
If a Tanky pet can’t leverage their superior survivability for the benefit of it’s teammate, what hope in hades does Ranger have of accomplishing the same? If half a dozen utilities and traits awkwardly forcing the issue can’t help pets leverage their survivability for our sake, doesn’t it kind of stand to reason the same would be true of us and our teammates?

It kinda’ sounds like if Ranger ever hopes to be anything but self-centered; Survivability itself needs to start being a selfless teamplay option outside of bunkering, or be seriously reconsidered as a valid defining characteristic.

On the one hand, trying to make Survivability selfless could be interesting, in that it would give ‘defensive’ building options some measure of relevancy in PvE. On the other hand, in execution it kinda’ sounds like ‘Tanking’ with a capital T any way I slice it. So, maybe not. Surviving as a class identity and having ‘tanky’ pets at all might just be a straight-up bad idea.

This has almost certainly been covered, but.
Marksmans trait line as it regards to Longbow and Short bow.

Specific Game Mode
PvX

Proposal Overview
The Marksman trait line is an odd duck, and is one of the few that are the most in need of help. Largely because of the Opening Strike traits, which clash with Ranger’s Sustained damage model, as well as being very easily countered by condition removal.
It’s a huge investment for very little.
This combined with some pretty terrible grandmaster traits, and a general lack of focus.

Goal of Proposal
To condense the Opening Strike traits into a single grandmaster trait, and create new minor traits in their place that function better at sustained damage, esp where bows are concerned.

Proposal Functionality

• First, condense the three Opening Strike minor traits into Remorseless to something like this: Opening Strikes – You and your pet’s first attack deals 25% more damage (or vulnerability, or some other condition). This recharges when you kill an enemy.

This would free up the minor traits.

• Adapt: Poisoned Tip – Projectiles you fire have a (10-15%) chance to Poison. (2 sec)
  The goal here is to add a little more pressure to projectiles, of which the Ranger has many. All Short Bow and Longbow skills, except Barrage. Axe skills 1-4. Dagger 5, Torch 4, and Greatsword 4-4. This also plays well with the Rangers themes, as well as adding a little additional sustain with wide, but not complete coverage.
  Could include ranged pets.

• Master: Deadly Poisons – Apply Vulnerability to your enemies when you Poison. (1-2 stacks, 4-5 seconds)
  This would synergies well with the the Adapt trait, but also the several other Poison skills, allowing them to sustain slightly higher damage over time that isn’t as easy to remove as a single large influx of Vulnerability. ie, Opening Strikes.
  Should probably include Poison applied by your pet.

• Grandmaster: Healthy Body and Mind – You deal 20% more damage while your health is above 90%.
  This would work well in almost any build, but it works esp well with sustained where the goal is to keep your own hp up via regeneration that the Ranger has a lot of access to, while chipping away at your opponent.
  Or in builds where you keep a healthy distance out of range, ie bows.

This should have the effect of not only making this trait line more viable with a variety of builds, and the sustained damage model in general, but specifically with bows that tend to do relatively poor damage compared to their Warrior and Thief counterparts, as well as far fewer AOE options.
By adding some Poison and Vulnerability to their regular outgoing attacks, you stand to improve them quite a great deal without having to rework the skills on these weapons. (as many people have requested)

But it will also make the Axe AA slightly more powerful without having to rebalance that either.

Associated Risks
Not sure. Condensing Opening Stikes into a single grandmaster trait might make it too strong, depending on what it does, but also in conjunction with some of the minor traits I suggested. But it would certainly waste less space.

I hate to be the guy who asks for his post to get bumped/more views, but I would like some feedback on my rework discussed near the bottom of page 65 so it can be improved.

I know the balance patch is only two days away, but pleaseee consider the following. It’s from an old thread of mine and I would’ve posted it earlier but I’ve been locked out of my account for a month.

I really do love the ranger greatsword, but I can’t deny that it is currently underperforming a bit. For one, many players consider this to be a defensive or utility weapon, which should immediately show its lack of potential. Greatswords across all classes are meant to be high damage, bursty weapons. Currently, the greatsword isn’t our highest dealing damage weapon nor is it really bursty (it can be, but I’ll explain later). Our highest damage dealing weapon is actually the sword. Now, I would be okay with this IF the greatsword fulfilled its role to some point, but it doesn’t.

The only situation where the greatsword can achieve considerable burst is if the wielder is signet spec’d and has both Signet of the Wild and Signet of the Hunt popped, which have 48 and 24 second cooldowns if traited. Let’s also not forget that that the ranger “burst” skill (maul) isn’t a channel like 100b or Whirling Wrath, which means all its damage can be negated by a single block, blade, or evade. So, if all these conditions are met, then sure, the weapon is “bursty”. And even then, this burst is only repeatable every 48, and to a lesser degree, 24 seconds. No one should have to trait so much just to have their weapon function as it naturally should. With that in mind, I’d really like arenanet to consider a few changes I have proposed.

First of all, the auto attack needs a base damage boost. I’d suggest a boost of around 20%. As it stands, it deals little damage compared to the auto’s of other weapons such as sword and shortbow, thanks in part to its casting times and aftercast.

Secondly, I think that maul should be reworked a significant amount. It is too easy to negate the weapon’s burst, and the skill itself deals too little damage. And as such, I propose that Maul’s damage is increased significantly, probably around 25%, but in return, to prevent signet spec’s from having one shot bursts (I know I’m complaining about weak burst, but Maul can crit for over 10k in WvW on glassy targets), maul counts as two strikes instead of one. This way, non signet specs can actually have some decent bursts, signet spec’s don’t receive too much burst (the damage boost from Signet of the Hunt count’s on one strike, not skill), and a mere blind/block doesn’t entirely negate the burst. Also, it makes no sense to have vulnerability on Maul when it is the weapon’s burst skill. Instead, have the weapon weaken for around 3 seconds or so and move the vulnerability to Swoop. Because Swoop has twice as long a cooldown as maul, give it 10 stacks instead of 5. This would also give incentive to use the skill as more than a gap closer/creator.

Lastly about the greatsword, please allow the knockback portion of Counterattack to be usable while moving and reduce it’s aftercast slightly, as a QoL change.

Now, I think the Longbow is almost in a good spot. Its received numerous buffs over the past year, but is lacking in the same aspect as the greatsword. Burst. To make the longbow a viable damage weapon, you pretty much have to go zerk. And this is precisely because Rapid Fire is not a burst skill. Before the longbow buffs, this skill was used to maintain decent dps when within close range of your target. Now, this really doesn’t apply anymore. If it were made a burst skill, then you could stray from being glassy and actually have good dps with the weapon.

Fixing this isn’t really a tough thing to do. Simply reduce the cast time of Rapid Fire by 50% by making it only shoot five arrows, and in return, reduce its total damage output by around 25-33% to prevent the burst from being too strong. The rest of the weapon skills are fine in my opinion. Stealth and knockback on 12 and 15 second cooldowns are very good, and so is Barrage with its large radius, damage, and cripple. However, as I stated before, it doesn’t make much sense to have a weapon’s burst skill deal vulnerability. Instead move it back to Hunter’s Shot or to Point Blank Shot, since both these skills can be used to open up a Rapid Fire with.

And lastly, you would need to spend 50 trait points and acquire three traits to fully trait the Longbow, something that is atrocious considering we are supposed to be “unparalleled archers.” The Marksmanship line is the only trait line which should contain bow traits considering it’s name. Please merge QuickDraw into Piercing Arrows and leave it in the Marksmanship line. I think this would do wonder’s to open up more power specs for Rangers.

CETheLucid.3964:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

That’s an issue that has to be addressed, yes. But I don’t want to be dependent on an AI if I haven’t chosen to.

Well, that’s easy. Don’t play the profession whose defining mechanic is an animal companion. It was your choice to make.

You’re asking them to remove the rangers primary mechanic. How is this a valid suggestion?

This argument that pets should be removed from rangers is akin to asking attunement swap be removed from eles or clones removed from mesmers.

You’re not asking for development with this suggestion. You’re asking for an entire redesign of the class.

Have you even considered some people like the pet class or the initial vision of the ranger cruising along two years or so now?

The ranger can be made to be up to par with all the other classes without any dramatic redesign of the class as a whole.

Rangers can already compete. We need a little work, not much.

Yet you want to pull the rug from under those people because you want a different class from the one we have now.

The pet does not need to be removed from the ranger. It certainly does need to be improved upon.

If anything, we need more pets. We need more Southsun Cove style updates that introduce awesome new pets for rangers.

Gem store pets that become available in your home instance upon purchase. New pets in old places.

Pet’s aren’t a problem as a mechanic. It’s a problem in implementation. It needs some work, yeah?

You haven’t even understood what I was trying to say…
Maybe these will help you to understand what I mean: Link, Link

HHR LostProphet.4801:

You haven’t even understand what I was saying…

Wow, that’s some fantastic grammar.
Now I’m convinced. That was a wonderful argument.

Yoh.8469:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

You haven’t even understand what I was saying…

Wow, that’s some fantastic grammar.
Now I’m convinced. That was a wonderful argument.

Sorry if my grammar is not that perfect. You could rewrite it if you would feel better afterwards. He thought I want to remove the pet, which I don’t want to do. But I don’t want to be dependent on the pet dealing the damage if I could deal the damage more reliable. But thanks for your constructive criticism, helped a lot…

Fixed it, thanks for the hint.

would be interesting to have a pet is a level or otherwise evolution, a progression can say the pet initiates Phase child, young adult, through a crazy idea that it might be more interesting in PVE = s

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Yoh.8469:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

You haven’t even understand what I was saying…

Wow, that’s some fantastic grammar.
Now I’m convinced. That was a wonderful argument.

Sorry if my grammar is not that perfect. You could rewrite it if you would feel better afterwards. He thought I want to remove the pet, which I don’t want to do. But I don’t want to be dependent on the pet dealing the damage if I could deal the damage more reliable. But thanks for your constructive criticism, helped a lot…

Fixed it, thanks for the hint.

I sympathize with your position, but for different reasons.
I just think that pets are exceedingly generic by being pigeonholed into just being a DPS add-on. I’d like to see much more variation, pets that were designed more for defense or support.
Currently it’s more that they are designed for DPS, and their F2 might support you a little bit, as after thoughts.
But they clearly weren’t designed for that purpose from the ground up, and it shows.
They suck at it.

But fat chance since they simply reused their clearly inept animal AI.
I wish they took a page from a lot of the more recent mobs when it comes to AI and skill design.

Atherakhia.4086:

Any class can take camps and kill dolyaks though. No one wants their class’s role in WvW to be that of the yak slapper.

I do. I mean, I want my server to win not just in the zerg vs zerg but in the points. Anything I can do to help that with my ranger? I’ll do it.

Also of note – right now? Any other class is almost better off doing something other than the solo roam or havoc. But two rangers can actually be pretty darn effective as havoc if nobody cares about them.

And I also don’t buy into the ’it’s all a conspiracy’ angle of the plight of the Ranger. Everyone knows how strong they are at solo roaming. That alone would dispel that theory imo.

It’s not really a conspiracy, it’s a stand alone complex if anything. And it’s more specific, as we both note, to specific parts. Like the nice gentleman who says we’re pointless to have in dungeons and thus pointless in PvE.

But yea, if you don’t agree that’s cool.

Eh, I find myself mixed on opinion.

Vox Hollow.2736:

@ Misterdevious

That kind of makes me wonder if we’re at a space where we have to look at ‘survivability’ as a group resource fundamentally.

Ideally people who spec survivability instead of damage are doing it so they can support their allies longer… this could be with buffs, non-damage conditions, control effects, reviving, contesting/defending capture points, manning siege, or simply letting enemies beat on you instead of someone else. There are times when the purely offensive stats mean nothing, but in some damage driven gameplay the defensive stats are equally pointless. In WvW where I play, some defense is encouraged because you don’t know what is going to happen and one player going down can rally multiple enemies.

Vox Hollow.2736:

Surviving as a class identity and having ‘tanky’ pets at all might just be a straight-up bad idea.

Our profession mechanic on a certain level is a targetable damage over time, so that implies we need some degree of innate survivability.

In early levels of PvE it felt perfectly natural to tell my pet to grab agro while I revived other players… unfortunately that doesn’t work in some game-modes and it is unnecessary in others. There are people who use tanky pets just because they don’t want to be bothered with managing them. A more effective use for them would be as a reliable platform for F2 skills, Speed Rezzing, Signet of Renewal, Vigorous Training, etc. that can help allies. Same with the player… one person may use his survivability as a crutch to make it easier to stand around doing weak damage, but a more effective use would be do something with that defense… be a hero and revive an ally under heavy fire using Protect Me, or use massive regen to hold a capture point.

Just a note of interest.
I’m playing around with a Nature’s Voice build and I noticed something rather odd.
Why does Guard have a 1 sec cast time? Really, I want to know.
I can’t make heads or tails of it, that a skill type which has always been defined by having instant cast times, doesn’t.
Not that the rest of their functionality has anything to do with shouts either.
It’s just a really weird design choice.

Yoh.8469:

Just a note of interest.
I’m playing around with a Nature’s Voice build and I noticed something rather odd.
Why does Guard have a 1 sec cast time? Really, I want to know.
I can’t make heads or tails of it, that a skill type which has always been defined by having instant cast times, doesn’t.
Not that the rest of their functionality has anything to do with shouts either.
It’s just a really weird design choice.

You’re not the first one criticizing this.
I can think of atleast 3 other posts mentioning the casttime being odd. Maybe it’s getting changed in the process of buffing the ranger.

Yoh.8469:

Just a note of interest.
I’m playing around with a Nature’s Voice build and I noticed something rather odd.
Why does Guard have a 1 sec cast time? Really, I want to know.
I can’t make heads or tails of it, that a skill type which has always been defined by having instant cast times, doesn’t.
Not that the rest of their functionality has anything to do with shouts either.
It’s just a really weird design choice.

Can’t remember the name, but he will make an appearance telling you that it needs a 1 sec cast time or else it would be overpowered. That a shout isn’t always a shout

To be honest, TORMENT is one if not the best “Hunter condition” available.
If it not stops/slows down the target, it bleeds him out. So LB/GS shall have it.

What about moving all the pet-shouts to the Pet Control Bar?
Is it really reasonable to put them into the ultility slots? I don’t think so.
I’ts like I can’t start the car engine in the morning because I’ve already used

1. Wake Up!
2. Flush-da-Poop
3. Boilin’ Coffee
   and then the only elite remain
4. [MONDAY]

Forzani.2584:

Yoh.8469:

Just a note of interest.
I’m playing around with a Nature’s Voice build and I noticed something rather odd.
Why does Guard have a 1 sec cast time? Really, I want to know.
I can’t make heads or tails of it, that a skill type which has always been defined by having instant cast times, doesn’t.
Not that the rest of their functionality has anything to do with shouts either.
It’s just a really weird design choice.

Can’t remember the name, but he will make an appearance telling you that it needs a 1 sec cast time or else it would be overpowered. That a shout isn’t always a shout

And he makes an appearance! But, Its getting pointless to keep arguing this against you guys. I mean, yeah, sure, it gives your pet 10 seconds of Stealth and Guard to start with, and that balancing considerations were made, (and had to be), when thinking of traits like Nature’s Voice and Shout Mastery (plus the 30% boon duration in nature magic to get nature’s voice), and I would have to say that its a pretty balanced skill because it keeps your pet alive even through boss fights, and it gives you a source of regen and swiftness if you don’t have any. Not all skills need to deal damage, and not all skills need to affect allies by default, even if they are shouts. It could benefit the Ranger a little more by default, so it would be a useful skill without needing to waste 40 trait points, but the skill isn’t terrible in its current form.

Oh wait, I forgot! you guys don’t care about all that! I could explain all day why Guard works the way it works, but, Just like the “Stealth, Cool!!!” people on the longbow, there are the “Its supposed to be instant, nothing else matters!!” people when it comes to shouts.

Chrispy.5641:

Forzani.2584:

Yoh.8469:

Just a note of interest.
I’m playing around with a Nature’s Voice build and I noticed something rather odd.
Why does Guard have a 1 sec cast time? Really, I want to know.
I can’t make heads or tails of it, that a skill type which has always been defined by having instant cast times, doesn’t.
Not that the rest of their functionality has anything to do with shouts either.
It’s just a really weird design choice.

Can’t remember the name, but he will make an appearance telling you that it needs a 1 sec cast time or else it would be overpowered. That a shout isn’t always a shout

And he makes an appearance! But, Its getting pointless to keep arguing this against you guys. I mean, yeah, sure, it gives your pet 10 seconds of Stealth and Guard to start with, and that balancing considerations were made, (and had to be), when thinking of traits like Nature’s Voice and Shout Mastery (plus the 30% boon duration in nature magic to get nature’s voice), and I would have to say that its a pretty balanced skill because it keeps your pet alive even through boss fights, and it gives you a source of regen and swiftness if you don’t have any. Not all skills need to deal damage, and not all skills need to affect allies by default, even if they are shouts. It could benefit the Ranger a little more by default, so it would be a useful skill without needing to waste 40 trait points, but the skill isn’t terrible in its current form.

Oh wait, I forgot! you guys don’t care about all that! I could explain all day why Guard works the way it works, but, Just like the “Stealth, Cool!!!” people on the longbow, there are the “Its supposed to be instant, nothing else matters!!” people when it comes to shouts.

Dude, just let it go. None of us with your “logic” and you aren’t going to convince us with fairy tails of how “borderline OP” Guard is.

Substance E.4852:

Chrispy.5641:

Forzani.2584:

Yoh.8469:

Just a note of interest.
I’m playing around with a Nature’s Voice build and I noticed something rather odd.
Why does Guard have a 1 sec cast time? Really, I want to know.
I can’t make heads or tails of it, that a skill type which has always been defined by having instant cast times, doesn’t.
Not that the rest of their functionality has anything to do with shouts either.
It’s just a really weird design choice.

Can’t remember the name, but he will make an appearance telling you that it needs a 1 sec cast time or else it would be overpowered. That a shout isn’t always a shout

And he makes an appearance! But, Its getting pointless to keep arguing this against you guys. I mean, yeah, sure, it gives your pet 10 seconds of Stealth and Guard to start with, and that balancing considerations were made, (and had to be), when thinking of traits like Nature’s Voice and Shout Mastery (plus the 30% boon duration in nature magic to get nature’s voice), and I would have to say that its a pretty balanced skill because it keeps your pet alive even through boss fights, and it gives you a source of regen and swiftness if you don’t have any. Not all skills need to deal damage, and not all skills need to affect allies by default, even if they are shouts. It could benefit the Ranger a little more by default, so it would be a useful skill without needing to waste 40 trait points, but the skill isn’t terrible in its current form.

Oh wait, I forgot! you guys don’t care about all that! I could explain all day why Guard works the way it works, but, Just like the “Stealth, Cool!!!” people on the longbow, there are the “Its supposed to be instant, nothing else matters!!” people when it comes to shouts.

Dude, just let it go. None of us with your “logic” and you aren’t going to convince us with fairy tails of how “borderline OP” Guard is.

I never said it was OP, just that its fine the way it is, and that its not a terrible skill. I’ll let it go when you can give me a single reason why the skill is worthlessly underpowered, and saying that its supposed to be a insta cast shout skill isn’t good enough of a reason beyond “Shouts are supposed to be instant!”

@misterdevious

Yes, I agree you can do that now.
But, that’s not where I was going with the whole selfish/selfless thing.

I mean more like;
An RPG Tank leverages their survivability for the benefit of others through Taunt and aggro systems. A MOBA tank leverages their survivability for the benefit of others through mechanics like Towers and Carry. A FPS tank leverages their survivability for the benefit of others through capture point dynamics giving meaning to location.

These games feature classes who specialize in ‘survivability’, but there are unique mechanical support systems in place to give that a meaningful structure and constant way to benefit the team. It’s not; “Oh they just do the same thing everyone else can do, but if things start to go sour they might be able to continue doing it for a slightly longer period of time”.

In those games you defend yourself on behalf of others, in this game you defend yourself…just to defend yourself.

So, part of me wonders if GW2 needs a thing like that, or should try to downplay and phase out these sorts of character building choices if there isn’t going to be any place with actual gameplay for it outside of sPvP bunkering.

RoyalPredator.9163:

Pet Syngery? When will my kitten pet reach any WWW player, even if they’re laughing kitten a fort wall? 30% DMG POOF GONE, no way they can fix these situations…
Yeah, teach birds how to FLY…
As you see below, Stealth (which’s useability starts from 5s, no less!) goes PBS, since its the nearly perfect way to distract enemies and retreat/bite from nothing.
Hunter’s Shot goes tricky this time.

Longbow: Basic war tool
Long Range Shot – 0pt – Shoot your foe from long range (~1400). Stable DPS. Casting time 0.10 – 0.75 depending how far your target is! The closer you are, the more risk you take, the more dmg you can deal.
This is realistic, and would make a very nice challange for everyone. Stay behind safe and work normaly or deal with the risk of being killed but deal a little more because of ROF. It would also help hunters to not being primary hunted…
Rapid Fire – 4pt – Same as now, 1200 range. Only difference is to make it casting faster, so the applied vulnerability & damage can go more like Boom or Waste. Requires bit harder decision to risk, but also more rewarding and power representing.
Hunter’s Shot – 5pt – Complete change based on buffed Mercy Shot: Fire a shot that strikes for more damage the less health your target has. 5s protection if target has above 75% HP.
Point Blank Shot – 3pt – Push back your foe with a point-blank shot. The closer they are, the farther it pushes them back. +5 sec of stealth applied. 10 sec if target hit from the behind.
Barrage – 5pt – Mobile Cast would be nice, and what about Revealed?

there is a reason why hunter’s shot gives stealth. because ranger role in WvW is to kill elementalist and necros (the AoE damage and controller). so in WvW. they start attack with hunter’s shot to give the ranger time to choose a firing position.

but i still agree with other point.

Chrispy.5641:

Substance E.4852:

Chrispy.5641:

Forzani.2584:

Yoh.8469:

Just a note of interest.
I’m playing around with a Nature’s Voice build and I noticed something rather odd.
Why does Guard have a 1 sec cast time? Really, I want to know.
I can’t make heads or tails of it, that a skill type which has always been defined by having instant cast times, doesn’t.
Not that the rest of their functionality has anything to do with shouts either.
It’s just a really weird design choice.

Can’t remember the name, but he will make an appearance telling you that it needs a 1 sec cast time or else it would be overpowered. That a shout isn’t always a shout

And he makes an appearance! But, Its getting pointless to keep arguing this against you guys. I mean, yeah, sure, it gives your pet 10 seconds of Stealth and Guard to start with, and that balancing considerations were made, (and had to be), when thinking of traits like Nature’s Voice and Shout Mastery (plus the 30% boon duration in nature magic to get nature’s voice), and I would have to say that its a pretty balanced skill because it keeps your pet alive even through boss fights, and it gives you a source of regen and swiftness if you don’t have any. Not all skills need to deal damage, and not all skills need to affect allies by default, even if they are shouts. It could benefit the Ranger a little more by default, so it would be a useful skill without needing to waste 40 trait points, but the skill isn’t terrible in its current form.

Oh wait, I forgot! you guys don’t care about all that! I could explain all day why Guard works the way it works, but, Just like the “Stealth, Cool!!!” people on the longbow, there are the “Its supposed to be instant, nothing else matters!!” people when it comes to shouts.

Dude, just let it go. None of us with your “logic” and you aren’t going to convince us with fairy tails of how “borderline OP” Guard is.

I never said it was OP, just that its fine the way it is, and that its not a terrible skill. I’ll let it go when you can give me a single reason why the skill is worthlessly underpowered, and saying that its supposed to be a insta cast shout skill isn’t good enough of a reason beyond “Shouts are supposed to be instant!”

Th reason is that all classes who have shouts can use shoutbuilds and be somewhat effective with it, except the ranger.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Chrispy.5641:

Substance E.4852:

Chrispy.5641:

Forzani.2584:

Yoh.8469:

Just a note of interest.
I’m playing around with a Nature’s Voice build and I noticed something rather odd.
Why does Guard have a 1 sec cast time? Really, I want to know.
I can’t make heads or tails of it, that a skill type which has always been defined by having instant cast times, doesn’t.
Not that the rest of their functionality has anything to do with shouts either.
It’s just a really weird design choice.

Can’t remember the name, but he will make an appearance telling you that it needs a 1 sec cast time or else it would be overpowered. That a shout isn’t always a shout

And he makes an appearance! But, Its getting pointless to keep arguing this against you guys. I mean, yeah, sure, it gives your pet 10 seconds of Stealth and Guard to start with, and that balancing considerations were made, (and had to be), when thinking of traits like Nature’s Voice and Shout Mastery (plus the 30% boon duration in nature magic to get nature’s voice), and I would have to say that its a pretty balanced skill because it keeps your pet alive even through boss fights, and it gives you a source of regen and swiftness if you don’t have any. Not all skills need to deal damage, and not all skills need to affect allies by default, even if they are shouts. It could benefit the Ranger a little more by default, so it would be a useful skill without needing to waste 40 trait points, but the skill isn’t terrible in its current form.

Oh wait, I forgot! you guys don’t care about all that! I could explain all day why Guard works the way it works, but, Just like the “Stealth, Cool!!!” people on the longbow, there are the “Its supposed to be instant, nothing else matters!!” people when it comes to shouts.

Dude, just let it go. None of us with your “logic” and you aren’t going to convince us with fairy tails of how “borderline OP” Guard is.

I never said it was OP, just that its fine the way it is, and that its not a terrible skill. I’ll let it go when you can give me a single reason why the skill is worthlessly underpowered, and saying that its supposed to be a insta cast shout skill isn’t good enough of a reason beyond “Shouts are supposed to be instant!”

Th reason is that all classes who have shouts can use shoutbuilds and be somewhat effective with it, except the ranger.

There’s that ‘Our skills should be the exact same as all the other professions’ argument again (Our shouts should give allies buffs, just like our great and powerful overlords the Guardian and Warrior).

Do you have any other reason that doesn’t involve invoking other professions?

Chrispy.5641:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Chrispy.5641:

Substance E.4852:

Chrispy.5641:

Forzani.2584:

Yoh.8469:

Just a note of interest.
I’m playing around with a Nature’s Voice build and I noticed something rather odd.
Why does Guard have a 1 sec cast time? Really, I want to know.
I can’t make heads or tails of it, that a skill type which has always been defined by having instant cast times, doesn’t.
Not that the rest of their functionality has anything to do with shouts either.
It’s just a really weird design choice.

Can’t remember the name, but he will make an appearance telling you that it needs a 1 sec cast time or else it would be overpowered. That a shout isn’t always a shout

And he makes an appearance! But, Its getting pointless to keep arguing this against you guys. I mean, yeah, sure, it gives your pet 10 seconds of Stealth and Guard to start with, and that balancing considerations were made, (and had to be), when thinking of traits like Nature’s Voice and Shout Mastery (plus the 30% boon duration in nature magic to get nature’s voice), and I would have to say that its a pretty balanced skill because it keeps your pet alive even through boss fights, and it gives you a source of regen and swiftness if you don’t have any. Not all skills need to deal damage, and not all skills need to affect allies by default, even if they are shouts. It could benefit the Ranger a little more by default, so it would be a useful skill without needing to waste 40 trait points, but the skill isn’t terrible in its current form.

Oh wait, I forgot! you guys don’t care about all that! I could explain all day why Guard works the way it works, but, Just like the “Stealth, Cool!!!” people on the longbow, there are the “Its supposed to be instant, nothing else matters!!” people when it comes to shouts.

Dude, just let it go. None of us with your “logic” and you aren’t going to convince us with fairy tails of how “borderline OP” Guard is.

I never said it was OP, just that its fine the way it is, and that its not a terrible skill. I’ll let it go when you can give me a single reason why the skill is worthlessly underpowered, and saying that its supposed to be a insta cast shout skill isn’t good enough of a reason beyond “Shouts are supposed to be instant!”

Th reason is that all classes who have shouts can use shoutbuilds and be somewhat effective with it, except the ranger.

There’s that ‘Our skills should be the exact same as all the other professions’ argument again (Our shouts should give allies buffs, just like our great and powerful overlords the Guardian and Warrior).

Do you have any other reason that doesn’t involve invoking other professions?

I don’t have to buff other ppl to make use of shouts. I’m running a condition-shout build on my warrior as example. I don’t reach those high numbers you may be familiar with but its very funny to play. I heal myself, cure conditions and stack adrenaline when I use a shout. Furthermore, they’re on ~18 seconds cooldown.
If you’re running the ranger shouts, you get nearly no advantage at all in PvE or vs. normal mobs in general.

An entire sub-build is rarely (never) effective. As a war you can’t have access to stability with shoots for example, but it’s fine in PVE i guess.