Guild Wars 2

Xaylin.1860:

Akisame.9508:

Speaking of which, why is it that necro’s with all of their minions don’t have balancing issues when they can spec to not use minions and not lose DPS? What’s the difference between them and us if they also have pets and theirs is optional?

Again, it is not their class mechanic. They also lose a lot of utility when going MM.

That answer seems like a cop-out to me. Also, I would not argue that Necro’s “lose utility” by speccing into MM considering the fact that they gain access to quite a few different abilities through their minions.

AoE knockback? Check.
Immobilize? Check.
Potential teleport? Check.

I wonder if ANet is currently examining the discrepancies between Ranger and MM Necromancer in order to determine how they should go about balancing Ranger.

Xaylin.1860:

I personally would enjoy Troll Urgent curing specific conditions (e.g. Burn, Bleed and Poison) on cast. Not per pulse. And certainly not conditions in general per pulse. TU already is quite nice and the addtional general condition removal per pulse feels over the top.

I have to agree that clearing the three DoT conditions sounds both flavorful and very useful in the specific circumstances that would contribute to the Ranger delivering on the “resilient skirmisher” concept.

…Plus the in-game jokes about Troll Ungent being “Rub some bacon on it” would be hilarious .

Seems like a lot of confusion has been going on with regards to profession mechanics. These are the professions and their mechanics:

Warrior: Adrenaline leading to Burst Skills
Elementalist: Attunements leading to different skills per weapon
Ranger: Pet which leads to another source of damage and skills
Thief: Initiative which leads to skills with no CD, Steal and dual weapon specific skills
Necromacer: Lifeforce and Deathshroud which leads to more skills
Guardian: Virtues
Mesmer: Phanstasms and Illusions and shatter abilities to give different effects
Engineer: Toolbelt and Weapon Kits which lead to new skills (though weapon kits are arguably not a specific mechanic)

Allie Murdock.8152:

RoyHarmon.5398:

Allie Murdock.8152:

Thighum.7295:

Allie Murdock.8152:

Ok guys, just wanted to clarify a few things.

Permastow is not impossible. I never meant to give that impression, so I apologize if I did. However, as far as priorities go for the Ranger, it is not high on the list. Why? Because it would require an entire re-balance of Ranger, but if we re-balanced, then the players that do play with the pet would be OP. See the dilemma there?

Thank goodness. I am confused about something though, why would perma stow make pets op? I figured that something like a damage boost would only occur while the pet was stowed. I don’t think that the skills themselves would need to be changed, just a %stat boost that would give the approximate damage that the pet gave.

Allie Murdock.8152:

The reason why I latched onto the aspect idea was because it was an option that seemed we could maybe work around. Rather than having to rebalance the whole class, we’d just have to balance the aspects to be similar to what the pet does damage-wise. That seemed a little more viable.

I thought that aspects was basically the equivalent of perma-stowing with a stat boost, an F2 skill by family and glowing particles to show which aspect you were in. I don’t really understand how this is dramatically different from perma stowing with a damage boost while stowed.

Perma stow wouldn’t make pets OP. In rebalancing for permastow, it would make those that still want to play with the pet op. THAT IS, unless we design something that gives the player a boost to balance it out.

The aspects I think were a little different. They talked about having specific bonuses based on the pet that the player was using. That is different from just giving a damage boost, which could end up being difficult to balance.

I think what he meant was that if you gave the ranger an appropriate stat boost only while the pet was stowed, then there would be no need to rebalance in the first place.

Perhaps, but what people were suggesting was a rebalance of the class to make up for the current state of pet AI. In essence, that would mean tweaking the numbers of all Ranger traits and skills to account for the lack of pet. However, that would not be fair to the players that still want to play pets, as we would essentially be talking about completely removing the pet at that point.

What we won’t do is remove the pet from the class completely.

Does that make sense or is it still confusing?

I think we all understand pets aren’t going away, which is fine

However, what a lot of people are still confused about is what logical reason is there for pets to take a flat 30% of my DPS?

There is that much value placed on a pet but it is completely underwhelming.
I’m not sure there are any changes anet can make to actually make pets worth 30% of my DPS.

What’s what I’m having a trouble understanding. Is there any logicial explanation as to why you believe pets are worth 30% DPS? I can see them at most being worth 10%-15% and thats IF you spec into beast master trait line, which again, takes away even more DPS away from my main character.

I think most of the ranger community understands pets are here to stay, but I just don’t understand why on earth they are so crippling to my character in terms of DPS. There is no way a pet is worth 30% of my DPS. Ecspecially in Dungs/Fracs/sPvP/WvW.

Xukavi.4320:

Seems like a lot of confusion has been going on with regards to profession mechanics. These are the professions and their mechanics:

Warrior: Adrenaline leading to Burst Skills
Elementalist: Attunements leading to different skills per weapon
Ranger: Pet which leads to another source of damage and skills
Thief: Initiative which leads to skills with no CD, Steal and dual weapon specific skills
Necromacer: Lifeforce and Deathshroud which leads to more skills
Guardian: Virtues
Mesmer: Phanstasms and Illusions and shatter abilities to give different effects
Engineer: Toolbelt and Weapon Kits which lead to new skills (though weapon kits are arguably not a specific mechanic)

And all of those class mechanics are viable, useful and most importantly NOT crippling their respective class.

right now, I can’t even condi cleanse without my class mechanic (pet).
Now you tell me , what other class relies COMPLETELY on their class mechanic for cleansing condiitions (I know ele’s can attune to water for cleaning condi, but they have plenty of other sources for cleansing).

Xaylin.1860:

Akisame.9508:

I am not sure if I understood you right, but all classes, with the exception of ranger’s from what I have understood from the dev’s, all classes start with 100% damage. I have not read any post’s or heard any statements from dev’s stating that mesmer’s damage is reduced because they expect clones to fill a portion of that damage. Or necro’s damage is reduced because they expect minions to fill a portion of that damage.

Look at the baseline weapon damage of Mesmers and then tell me that there is no damage re-allocation to Phantasms or no consideration of Shatters. Without Phantasms or Shatters a Mesmer deals lousy damage.

Of course, this does not apply to a Necromancer since Minions are not the class mechanic. But Phantasms sort of are. Also, assuming that Burst skills of Warriors go ontop of the weapon damage is silly regardles what a Dev said in the past and how people might interpret it. Not using your Burst skills on a Warrior will always make you less effective.

Rangers might have a bigger chunk of damage linked to their class mechanic than others and they indeed lack control. But they are not the only class where damage is integrated into their class mechanic. That is why I personally reject suggestions which go ‘Warriors got 100% damage + Burst skills, Rangers should get 100% damage + Pet’ because it is based on inaccurate assumptions. It is very naive to assume that other damaging class mechanics are not considered when balancing a class.

That being said, I’d rather go on discussing proposals regarding weapon changes or utilities instead of getting stuck on the class mechanic and how people interpret a statement which is not even backed up by numbers.

Akisame.9508:

Speaking of which, why is it that necro’s with all of their minions don’t have balancing issues when they can spec to not use minions and not lose DPS? What’s the difference between them and us if they also have pets and theirs is optional?

Again, it is not their class mechanic. They also lose a lot of utility when going MM.

Where to start. OK, I have a mesmer alt and your phantasm comparison to ranger pets is offensive. Yes mesmers get most of their burst from phantasms and shatters, but your sustained ranged DPS is way higher than a ranger’s, and if your phantasms die, they can cause AOE damage and are brought right back up in seconds. When a ranger’s pets die, no AOE and we can’t spam a replacement. Not to mention your phantasms can be summoned and locked onto enemies our pets cannot get to.

So in closing, an Apple may be a fruit and so is an Orange, but you cannot make Apple Pie with Lemons.

For PvE Dungeons:

Rangers are great in dungeons and really do contribute a lot to a group. However, I find a huge lack of viable utilities. When I play my guardian, mesmer, even my warrior, I frequently swap utilities based on the situation. In fact I never run the same utilities the entire way through. With my ranger though the options are far fewer. The skills I frequently swap in other classes are things that provide various types of support to my group. Whether its wall of reflect, stand your ground, null field, portals, mantras, banners, for great justice, etc., these all provide critical support to my parties. What does ranger bring? Frost spirit… that is all. The other spirits have almost no place in dungeon mechanics. There are no other skills that support the group in any significant way. Besides Frost Spirit, Quickening Zephyr, and Sic’em, the other utilities are not good.

So, rangers need utilities in dungeons that offer more variety that they can provide in various situations. It does NOT have to be damage based. With the entire nature theme to work from there are many possibilities. Unfortunately, the game has limitations (most of which I honestly don’t fully understand) so I am not quite sure what is really possible to do.

Spirits: Make them immune to AoE damage but still vulnerable to direct attack (make this a trait). Only one really helpful is frost spirit and its useless without traits (make the 70% chance permanent). Others are just not good in dungeons.

Traps: These are not dungeon worthy so I will leave these alone.

Shouts: Only shout worth anything in dungeons Sic’em and its great.

Survival: Quickening Zephyr is awesome! Lightning Reflexes can help some but generally is not needed for the experienced ranger.

Signets: These are just not useful in dungeons. Give a reason to use these. First of all, change what they provide. Then make their use provide the party with their buff (duration increased through traits). For example, signet of the wild would provide the party with slightly more damage and grant stability. Signet of the hunt provides the party with 3 seconds of quickness…

This is just an idea, there are obvious problems and limitations with it but maybe it can get the creative juices flowing. I kept it general on purpose.

p.s. Fix the sword The learning curve is far greater than ANY other weapon in the game. It would be nice to actually be able to attack at max melee range.

@ Arghore…. on page 60.

Game mode: PvE

If I want to be a beastmaster (wich I do prefer) i want my pet to be able to stayby my side constantly as today… Not just for a period of time like a summon that dies/diapears.

If the pet would become a temporary summon, that would ruin the class totally IMO.

Frostfang.5109:

@ Arghore…. on page 60.

Game mode: PvE

If I want to be a beastmaster (wich I do prefer) i want my pet to be able to stayby my side constantly as today… Not just for a period of time like a summon that dies/diapears.

If the pet would become a temporary summon, that would ruin the class totally IMO.

Funny, because IMO, making the pet a summon that dies/disappears would totally fix the class.

thefantasticg.3984:

Frostfang.5109:

@ Arghore…. on page 60.

Game mode: PvE

If I want to be a beastmaster (wich I do prefer) i want my pet to be able to stayby my side constantly as today… Not just for a period of time like a summon that dies/diapears.

If the pet would become a temporary summon, that would ruin the class totally IMO.

Funny, because IMO, making the pet a summon that dies/disappears would totally fix the class.

Actually, IMO the current pet is more like a summon that dies/disappears (becomes useless) mere moments after you enter combat.

The ranger needs a permanent (and functional) companion, or it will just be a druid with some nature magic.

Profession mechanics are largely about managing a unique resource: Life-Force, Attunements, Adrenaline, Initiative, Etc. To be 100% effective with any profession you need to be able to manage its resource to good effect, even if you don’t trait for it.

Let me try to summarize the major issues with our profession’s unique resource

1. The difficulty of managing our pet’s red bar varies greatly across various game modes and situations… 1v1, 5v5, 60v60. – Some have suggested the resource should scale to the situation.
2. Even if we successfully manage it, the resource fails to perform in various situations (human enemies, slow f2 activation, one-hit bosses, aoe, zergs, tower walls). – The resource could be improved or expanded.
3. The effect our resource has varies by game-type, the same pets that grab agro and facetank open world PvE are completely ignored in pvp. The pet’s defenses could be made more of an asset in pvp
4. Failure to manage the pet results in a substantial penalty (loss of damage and utility which many people consider unacceptable). – The tools for managing the resource could be improved, the penalty for failure could be decreased, or the skills/traits that help could be easier to access.
5. Players refuse to use all the management tools. Some see recalling the pet or setting it on passive (to keep it alive until it can be healed) as unacceptable because it is a loss of dps. – The resource is perceived as too binary, seen as either 100% combat effective or worthless. The passive option could be improved or a third option could be introduced.
6. Rangers don’t get the full benefit of all their pet skills (when they hit) because that requires frequent swapping (which often means pet spends time running instead of doing dps). Instead swaps are often reserved simply for keeping the resource alive. – Some people see the pet swap mechanic as awkward.
7. Unlike other profession mechanics which are directly controlled by players, most of the pet functions are seen as separate and unconnected from the ranger. The pet could feel more like part of us.
8. The less you invest in the pet, the harder it is to manage. A beastmaster may not have to worry about his pet dying often, but an archer may struggle to keep a squishy pet alive with active swaps/heals/recalls and resort to just using a bear. Active pet management could benefit beastmasters more and be required by non-beastmasters less.
9. Some players who enjoy the ranger archetype do not want the pet to be their profession mechanic. Eric Flannum told them to play a different class, but they didn’t listen. There is still clear interest in being able to bowbear sans bear.

SkiTz.4590:

Anet would have to give pets massive DPS boost to be useful on bosses, which is not happening. That’s completely broken and unbalanced.

I don’t think that is necessarily the one and only solution. I think you may be being a bit closed minded regarding this issue.

SkiTz.4590:

Of course I would love rangers to be better at support…but I could care less about supporting in a PvE setting… No buff from anet will make them on par with guardians buff to party,

Why not? Why can’t other classes be brought on par with guardians?

SkiTz.4590:

Dungs/Fracs are already easy, I do them just fine with how ranger currently is.

That is irrelevant. This is about class balance: How the class ways up against other classes in all areas of the game.

SkiTz.4590:

but it’s not that big of a deal in PvE because theres simply better classes at PvE and I just play them if i wanna do dungs/fracs lol

That is worst argument in a class balance discussion ever. “Because there’s better classes in PVE, ranger does not need to be balanced for PVE”. No. That is EXACTLY why the ranger needs to be improved in PVE.

SkiTz.4590:

You are in a party of 5, the heavies are aggroing the boss, you are sitting comfortably at range just spamming auto attack on bows, rapid fire when it comes off cd, and occasionally dodging any boss attacks.

What is wrong with that?

SkiTz.4590:

Where on earth do you possibly see where range combat takes skill? Its literally sit there and press 1 while heavies agro. What do you mean add more depth and strategy to range combat?

Hang on. First you describe how ranged combat basically is just safely sitting at a distance and spamming 1, and next you ask me what I mean by adding more depth and strategy to ranged combat?

SkiTz.4590:

Ranged combat will never be on par with melee in terms DPS in PvE settings.

Not if you’re completely unwilling to change anything at all. Maybe you should change your stance regarding this issue then.

SkiTz.4590:

Unless you have a really hard time playing with sword as ranger in PvE, there is no use for a bow unless the situation absolutely calls for it.

That is also something that could be improved.

SkiTz.4590:

I don’t see anet changing to where rangers will prefer to fight in range combat (in PvE at least). I wouldn’t want that anyways, sword is very fun.

Why not demand then that they make the bow more fun to use as well?

See, it sounds to me like you are aware of all the problems that plague this class, and are unwilling to improve any of them, unless it’s for pvp.

Rangers are the ONLY CLASS whose class mechanic can die.

And we are the ONLY CLASS that gives 30% of our damage and stats from gear up.

30% is a high price to pay for something that isn’t “always on” as our pets are often called, as when they DIE THEY AREN’T ON.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

SkiTz.4590:

Anet would have to give pets massive DPS boost to be useful on bosses, which is not happening. That’s completely broken and unbalanced.

I don’t think that is necessarily the one and only solution. I think you may be being a bit closed minded regarding this issue.

SkiTz.4590:

Of course I would love rangers to be better at support…but I could care less about supporting in a PvE setting… No buff from anet will make them on par with guardians buff to party,

Why not? Why can’t other classes be brought on par with guardians?

SkiTz.4590:

Dungs/Fracs are already easy, I do them just fine with how ranger currently is.

That is irrelevant. This is about class balance: How the class ways up against other classes in all areas of the game.

SkiTz.4590:

but it’s not that big of a deal in PvE because theres simply better classes at PvE and I just play them if i wanna do dungs/fracs lol

That is worst argument in a class balance discussion ever. “Because there’s better classes in PVE, ranger does not need to be balanced for PVE”. No. That is EXACTLY why the ranger needs to be improved in PVE.

SkiTz.4590:

You are in a party of 5, the heavies are aggroing the boss, you are sitting comfortably at range just spamming auto attack on bows, rapid fire when it comes off cd, and occasionally dodging any boss attacks.

What is wrong with that?

SkiTz.4590:

Where on earth do you possibly see where range combat takes skill? Its literally sit there and press 1 while heavies agro. What do you mean add more depth and strategy to range combat?

Hang on. First you describe how ranged combat basically is just safely sitting at a distance and spamming 1, and next you ask me what I mean by adding more depth and strategy to ranged combat?

SkiTz.4590:

Ranged combat will never be on par with melee in terms DPS in PvE settings.

Not if you’re completely unwilling to change anything at all. Maybe you should change your stance regarding this issue then.

SkiTz.4590:

Unless you have a really hard time playing with sword as ranger in PvE, there is no use for a bow unless the situation absolutely calls for it.

That is also something that could be improved.

SkiTz.4590:

I don’t see anet changing to where rangers will prefer to fight in range combat (in PvE at least). I wouldn’t want that anyways, sword is very fun.

Why not demand then that they make the bow more fun to use as well?

See, it sounds to me like you are aware of all the problems that plague this class, and are unwilling to improve any of them, unless it’s for pvp.

I am very aware of the problems, but I’m being realistic here.

This all requires an OVERHAUL. you make it sound as if these are like bandaid fixes. IF it were the case, we would have seen these changes a long time ago

This is NOT what anet wants to do (overhauling the class). I would love for them to improve it,but realistically, there is no a chance in hell they do, they have already mentioned that they just don’t have the resources to overhaul an entire class. All of these problems that you have been listing are not a simple change, it requires a lot of balancing and testing. It’s a massive overhaul, one that I completely do not expect anet to do.

Look at the past 1.5 year of ranger fixes. What can you possibly make you say, “you know what, I think we will fix it next time”

They simply can’t. It would require majority of their dev team focusing on ranger, which ain’t happening.

You are asking for unrealistic changes like making rangers on par with guardians in support.
I would LOVE for that kind of change, don’t get me wrong, but you have un realistic expectations from anet.

Until proven otherwise, there is no reason for me to believe anet will OVERHAUL this class

Aidenwolf.5964:

Xaylin.1860:

Akisame.9508:

I am not sure if I understood you right, but all classes, with the exception of ranger’s from what I have understood from the dev’s, all classes start with 100% damage. I have not read any post’s or heard any statements from dev’s stating that mesmer’s damage is reduced because they expect clones to fill a portion of that damage. Or necro’s damage is reduced because they expect minions to fill a portion of that damage.

Look at the baseline weapon damage of Mesmers and then tell me that there is no damage re-allocation to Phantasms or no consideration of Shatters. Without Phantasms or Shatters a Mesmer deals lousy damage.

Of course, this does not apply to a Necromancer since Minions are not the class mechanic. But Phantasms sort of are. Also, assuming that Burst skills of Warriors go ontop of the weapon damage is silly regardles what a Dev said in the past and how people might interpret it. Not using your Burst skills on a Warrior will always make you less effective.

Rangers might have a bigger chunk of damage linked to their class mechanic than others and they indeed lack control. But they are not the only class where damage is integrated into their class mechanic. That is why I personally reject suggestions which go ‘Warriors got 100% damage + Burst skills, Rangers should get 100% damage + Pet’ because it is based on inaccurate assumptions. It is very naive to assume that other damaging class mechanics are not considered when balancing a class.

That being said, I’d rather go on discussing proposals regarding weapon changes or utilities instead of getting stuck on the class mechanic and how people interpret a statement which is not even backed up by numbers.

Akisame.9508:

Speaking of which, why is it that necro’s with all of their minions don’t have balancing issues when they can spec to not use minions and not lose DPS? What’s the difference between them and us if they also have pets and theirs is optional?

Again, it is not their class mechanic. They also lose a lot of utility when going MM.

Where to start. OK, I have a mesmer alt and your phantasm comparison to ranger pets is offensive. Yes mesmers get most of their burst from phantasms and shatters, but your sustained ranged DPS is way higher than a ranger’s, and if your phantasms die, they can cause AOE damage and are brought right back up in seconds. When a ranger’s pets die, no AOE and we can’t spam a replacement. Not to mention your phantasms can be summoned and locked onto enemies our pets cannot get to.

So in closing, an Apple may be a fruit and so is an Orange, but you cannot make Apple Pie with Lemons.

Yeah….uh, I have never been killed by a Mesmer’s ‘sustained ranged DPS’. I have however, been taken out many times by other Rangers using the Barrage/Rapid fire combo, which does way more damage than you give it credit for.

In closing, (insert metaphor here)
….
(nah, I’ll say one anyways!) all professions are Apples. Some are just more sour than others.

SkiTz.4590:

There is that much value placed on a pet but it is completely underwhelming.
I’m not sure there are any changes anet can make to actually make pets worth 30% of my DPS.

I agree that the pet is underhwelming right now. But I do believe that there is a way to fix this. People just need to have some faith. The question should be how the 30% could be made justifiable and not how the relevance of the pet could be reduced by taking away its damage.

The infamous 30% would be worthit when the pet hit more reliably (e.g. larger melee range, higher than normal speed). It would be more viable in dungeons and WvW if it was less vulnerable to area effects (not immune). When it comes to smacking trahs mobs in PvE certain pets with cleaving attacks could help. I think that all these are things ANet can work on and succeed. Just because they didn’t do it in the past doesn’t mean they can’t handle it at all.

Aidenwolf.5964:

Where to start. OK, I have a mesmer alt and your phantasm comparison to ranger pets is offensive. Yes mesmers get most of their burst from phantasms and shatters, but your sustained ranged DPS is way higher than a ranger’s.

I’m sorry if you feel offended. That is never my intention when posting on here.

This doesn’t change the fact though that Mesmers also have an AI dependend class mechanic (both, burst and sustained damage) and their weapon damage is rather low when compared to other classes. It also doesn’t change the fact that Illusions are actually more affected by area attacks than Ranger pets because their health is significantly lower. It doesn’t matter that you can recast them when they instantly die again. If this wasn’t the case you would see more Phantasm/Shatter Mesmers in zergs.

You also might want to get your information straight. Phantasms do not cause area damage when killed. Only traited Clones do that. And even then that damage is extremly low. It is 3 stacks of Bleed with a 33% chance which statistically makes it 1 stack of Bleed per dead Clone. Mesmers ranged DPS is also extremly crappy. No idea how you got a different impression.

If you want to compare damage, you might want to take a look at the Sword AA for both classes (both probably the highest DPS of both classes). The Mesmer AA has about 15% (boon on foe) to 25% (no boon) more damage on paper. However, you also have to account for eventual after skill delays. Go to the Mist and test it yourself. Only using the AA, my Ranger actually kills the golems slightly faster than my Mesmer (same stats, no traits). Conclusively, the Ranger can’t really be that far off when it comes to baseline damage. At least when compared to the Mesmer.

Aidenwolf.5964:

Rangers are the ONLY CLASS whose class mechanic can die.

And we are the ONLY CLASS who pays for our mechanic by GIVING AWAY damage to said AI in advance.

I beg to differ.

62 pages of CDI is evidence enough that there’s an issue. And BTW when traited all shatters (which is the mesmer mechanic) work on you and dodging spams clones, so your burst is readily available.

SkiTz.4590:

This all requires an OVERHAUL. you make it sound as if these are like bandaid fixes. IF it were the case, we would have seen these changes a long time ago

I didn’t suggest any specific way to improve these things, I simply pointed out that they are things that deserve fixing. I do not see how you would conclude from that this requires an overhaul of the whole class.

Additionally, if even half of these things would be addressed, I would be happy. And that again would not demand a completely overhaul of the class.

SkiTz.4590:

All of these problems that you have been listing are not a simple change, it requires a lot of balancing and testing. It’s a massive overhaul, one that I completely do not expect anet to do.

You’re not making any suggestions on how to improve these issues. Until you do, there’s no way you can claim that these things demand an entire overhaul. There are plenty of simple ways to address these problems. And I’ll provide some below.

SkiTz.4590:

Look at the past 1.5 year of ranger fixes. What can you possibly make you say, “you know what, I think we will fix it next time”

You do realize that the whole purpose of this discussion, is for a massive improvement to the ranger class? Not a general patch for all classes, but specifically the ranger.

SkiTz.4590:

They simply can’t. It would require majority of their dev team focusing on ranger, which ain’t happening.

They are focusing on the ranger now with this discussion aren’t they?

SkiTz.4590:

You are asking for unrealistic changes like making rangers on par with guardians in support.

You seriously don’t think that giving the rangers one really good party support skill, would help them be on par with guardians in regards to party support in PVE? How much work can one skill be?

What parties in dungeons need, is protection, healing, and stability. So…. why not give the ranger better access to party-wide buffs that accomplish this?

Regarding pets, if pets took reduced damage from bosses, they wouldn’t die quite so often from them. Seems like an easy fix. Not necessarily the best solution, but a simple solution none the less.

Massive overhaul of the class? I don’t see it.

Aggrostemma.1703:

They cannot dodge through, they cannot avoid AE’s, they are useless on walls and under them.

The only time I’ve seen pets be useful around walls in WvW is when they could glitch into a tower, keep, or castle and attack the defenders and siege weapons inside but I suspect that this was not how they were intended to work, but maybe they should work that way on purpose since Dragon Tooth can attack outside of line of sight and Mesmer clones can attack up on walls.

Berk.8561:

Aggrostemma.1703:

They cannot dodge through, they cannot avoid AE’s, they are useless on walls and under them.

The only time I’ve seen pets be useful around walls in WvW is when they could glitch into a tower, keep, or castle and attack the defenders and siege weapons inside but I suspect that this was not how they were intended to work, but maybe they should work that way on purpose since Dragon Tooth can attack outside of line of sight and Mesmer clones can attack up on walls.

It actually was ok till people started using Rangers to res people with Search and Rescue inside the keep..

Then it got nerfed

But yea…Was only time Guard was taken for the actual ability, not for it just being the shout with the shortest cooldown for the Natures GM Trait.

I anticipate some big disappointment for anyone thinking there is going to be “massive improvement”.

Edit: Especially since they don’t need anything massive. A couple of small tweaks and Rangers are fine.

Have the devs given us their impression of where the class is at? I’d like to know where they think our damage output is (for each weapon), where we stand on condition removal, where we stand on traits (how much consolidation/improvement do we need?), where each of our utility lines stand, and where we’re at on group support. If they think this is still just a perception problem there’s not much point to us throwing out ideas.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Hey all,

I just wanted to clarify since we saw some confusion about this, both in this thread and on Reddit. The summary I posted was a summary of feedback I took from you guys in this thread and sent to the devs. It is not a reflection of changes that are or will be made (necessarily).

That doesn’t mean we aren’t doing anything about the feedback in the summary, it just shouldn’t be considered “Balance update notes”.

Hopefully that clears up some of the confusion.

Hey Allie, what direction do you see our class mechanic going in terms of damage vs control vs assistance? Do you see our pets playing all 3 roles? Do you see our pets receiving the ability to cleave for AOE damage in z vs z situations?

What kind of ideas should we focus on in terms of our pets and their purpose?

rpfohr.7048:

rpfohr.7048:

Proposal Overview

Improve shouts to make them more attractive while increasing ranger – pet synergy

Goal of Proposal

Ranger shouts are lackluster. Sickem has evolved to just being an anti stealth counter. Protect me hurts your pet. Guard is just used to spam Natures Voice. And I don’t even think search and rescue is worth mentioning.

Proposal Functionality

Sickem – 25 second cool down.
Your next attack immobilizes target for 3 seconds.
For 5 seconds your loose control of your pet and it gains + 40% speed and + 30% damage.
This helps pets hit their targets more and is helpful synergy.

Protect Me – Cool down made to 30 seconds
Your pet gains weakness for 6 seconds. You and your pet gain protection for 6 seconds. Your pet also steals 2 conditions from you.
This improves build diversity by adding active condition removal it removes a need for every build to have Empathetic Bond. It also won’t kill your pet as a damage transfer but still can be great against burst damage. It still retains the weakened pet functionality as pets won’t hit hard with weakness

Guard – Cool down increased to 25 seconds. Cast time reduced to .25 seconds
Your pet protects a target territory for 60 seconds. Your pet gains Stability, Protection, and Retaliation for 8 seconds.
There are so many ways to share offensive boons with pet, this is great for pet defense and helps out the AOE problem in PvE and WvW. I get the need for a cast time on a ground target AoE as well but this can be sped up to the speed of necro wells or marks.

Search and Rescue – Cool down decreased to 60 seconds.
Your pet locates a downed ally in the area and attempts to revive them. If a no downed allies are found the pet attempts to rez a defeated player and the cool down goes to 150 seconds.
This makes it worthy of being taken, now even if something were to happen it can still rez a defeated player but it is balanced out by going on a long cool down

Associated Risks

It’s a rework of shouts, Natures voice spamming builds would be effected but in turn might opt to use more of these better shouts to proc it which is actually a positive in my mind.

Allie I am glad you want to talk about things other than pets.

Part 2 of my utility rework focuses on traps.

Proposal Overview

Improve trap build options and have some of its traits be affected by condition related lines. This proposal affects WvW and sPvP

Goal of Proposal

To split trappers expertise into 2 separate traits to improve the versatility of melee trapping and placing traps at your feet with the larger radius. And to still allow the common rabid trapper to still take Sharpened edges or a carrion trapper to take keen edge and ween off the crits a little bit.

Proposal Functionality

Trappers Expertiese
Your traps are ground targeted and have 900 range
This will improve the overall viability of AOE damage rangers can do in WvW and finally bring them some use.

Healers Clarity – CHANGED TO Enlarged traps
Increase the radius of your traps by 60
Rangers have 2 revive traits when they only need 1, leave trappers defense and change this. This also puts a trap trait in the wilderness survival line for condition damage and improves Melee trappers and the WS line and NM line are more focused on Sword and Greatsword

I’m sorry… you want to split a single trait into two separate traits, and then the only additional bonuses to the overall effects is that one is now an Adept trait, and the other one has increased range that realistically should take place anyway?

I understand the desire to have at least one trap-related trait in the WS trait line for synergy with Malice, at least under the current state of traps where they are pretty totally conditions skills only (a state that I am not personally fond of, as I would like to see more potential for power/crit trapping). And I understand the idea behind allowing someone to choose to go with point-blank melee traps while still gaining increased trap radius of effect (as it would be more convenient for melee trappers to do this, than to deal with ground targeting at their own feet). Also, as a ranged trapper myself, I love the idea of having 900 range ground targeting instead of only 600. But I don’t think that the added bonuses are enough to justify the split.

I get that this thread is a conceptual discussion, but is there a realistic time frame that we could expect to see any changes that may come about as a result of this open discussion? Would it be like 6 months for devs to make decisions and code and test and implement? Shorter? Longer? Or literally no way to know?

Gotejjeken.1267:

Allie Murdock.8152:

Perma stow wouldn’t make pets OP. In rebalancing for permastow, it would make those that still want to play with the pet op. THAT IS, unless we design something that gives the player a boost to balance it out.

The aspects I think were a little different. They talked about having specific bonuses based on the pet that the player was using. That is different from just giving a damage boost, which could end up being difficult to balance.

I think the reverse of this was used as the reasoning behind nerfing pets to begin with, wasn’kitten That is, the ranger and the pet did ‘too much damage’ so the pet was nerfed to compensate.

My fear with permastow is it will break things further in the balancing process. No matter what, playing without a pet would win out. Even if on paper a ranger + pet would theoretically do more damage, the pet AI is so bad at hitting things that it would not matter.

Basically, beastmasters will be seen as a huge liability. Instead of just hating rangers in general, people will start to hate based on what kind of ranger you are, which is IMO worse. Why would anyone want a person with a lackluster AI that cannot stay alive and draws huge amounts of aggro around when they could just ‘upgrade’ to the non-pet option?

I have to agree with Gotejjeken here. The pet AI is so bad that in many situations pets are a major liability. While learning to better micromanage the pet can help with this to a minimal extent, the problem still exists regardless. If an option was added to simply permastow the pet and replace it with some other sort of bonuses, then you will find that the majority of Rangers will simply stop using pets altogether. And as Gotejjeken said, other players (and even other Rangers) would automatically despise or hold in contempt any Ranger adacious enough to dare to use the pet anyway.

I’m in favor of a permastow option, but I’m even more in favor of pet AI improvements, or general pet improvements that overcome the AI drawbacks, or both.

ok guys…new elite skill: PET MOUNT
ranger casts giant growth on pet and mounts it for a new attack!!!

Allie Murdock.8152:

Also, I don’t want this thread to be entirely about pets. We’ve seen a ton of great feedback about them, and I would like to hear more about utilities that need help (and aren’t viable unless spec’d into) as I haven’t seen as much on that front!

Thanks all

Part 1:
Its a kind of thing thats hitting mtwo birds with 1 stone…

remove all othe shout utility and rework them completely into always useable Pet Commands together with the pet becoming alot more controlable like a Hero NPC from GW1, where you can clearly set up the position for your pet and what the pet should do at the setted up location.

That would make up for new space to give the ranger some new more useful utility skilsl to replace the old should utilities.

Somethign lie Nature Spells I’d love to see to take their space, to improve the ranger’s Nature magic based builds more.
Besides of the Nature Spirits, the Ranger really has no single skill, that really looks like using Nature Magic.

Nature Spirits themself should also get reworked mechanically into becoming skills, that influence also all of the Rangers Weapon Skill based on the used Nature Spirit which has been summoned last by the ranger player to further increase the rangers nature magic gameplay builds.

Some of the existing Traps, like the Flame Trap would work also alot better, if they would get reworked into Weapon Skills

Flame Trap for example would make up for an awesome Torch Skill to promote better the usage of torches as they currently are way too uninteresting comparecto longbow, greatsword or even axe/warhorn.
Throw Torch should become more of a throwable ring of fire thats currently the torchs Skill#5 – Made about this at the early pages of this CDI my suggestions aroun Skill Changes, including this one to turn Flame Trap into a Weapon Skill for the Torch.

But I think Traps of the Ranger would work also much nice,r if they would be more integrated as bonus effects of traits, instead of them being utility skills. Would be just another 4 utility skilsl that could be replaced with somethign new and more general useful.
—

My concrete ideas around what to do all with the Utility Skills:

“Guard!”, “Sic’em!”, “Protect me!”, “Search and Rescue!”
Completely remove them all and rework them as said into complete new permanent class specific mechanics as Pet Commands usinf F1-F4 to place ground target command to command your pet to do something in a specificly targeted place

Signet of Renewal
Reduce the 10 second passive effetc to trigger on every 8 seconds and make it work for you and your pet at the same time.
Replace the Active Effect with a Pet Revival Skill that lets the revived pet receive for 3 seconds protection, regeneration and retaliation, while the ranger receives as long the active effect is on heals, whenever someone attacks the pet.

Signet of the Hunt & Wild
Merge both signets together under a partwise new effect

Passive: You gain health when you pet deals damage, while the pet gains health, when you deal damage. (Move the +25% movement increase into a trait that you get early)
Active: Your pet grows langer, gains stability and deals more damage, and becomes able to attack also stealthed enemies as long the effect is working

Signet of Stone
Reduce the Cooldown to 60 seconds.
Passive: Your Pet receives from all Damage Sources 66% lesser damage.
Active: Your Pet takes no damage for the next 6s, while your Toughness gets boosted for the next 20 seconds by + 200 and conditions last on you in that time 25% lesser, being also invulnerable to Petrification.

Quickening Zephyr
Rework that Effect into a Trait, remove the Utility Skill and replace it by something better.

Sharpening Stone/ Lightning Reflexes
Merge them under Lightning reflexes with a combined new effect:

Evade back with a lightnign quick lightning, dealign damage, removing Chill, Cripple, Stun and Knockdown, letting you gain Vigor and Fury, letting your next 5 critical hits also deal Bleedings.

Nektera.9425:

i already give suggestion before here in this forum in page 60. but i want to add things to ranger’s Longbow

Specific Game-mode: WvW

Proposal overview: changing the 4th skill of Longbow

Goal of proposal: increase ranger support in WvW zergbusting

proposal functionality: the bad thing about ranger is that almost every weapon in ranger is one targeted weapon. in fact, that is the design philosophy, which is “single target, sustained damage”. we can still keep that idea. but is it disadvantageous in WvW? well yes if every weapon is one target purpose and no more utility.
i think we can give ranger weapon a little bit more utility with still holding the design philosophy of one-targeted sustained damage. for example, we can change the idea of 4th Longbow skill knock down.
the current 4th skill of longbow is very single targeted. except if you use piercing arrow. but i think piercing arrow dont work either, because in WvW situation. enemy rarely stay in one place. so “single target sustained damage” wont work in WvW if that is the only thing that ranger do.
my new 4th ranger longbow skill is somekind of “explosive arrow” AoE blast that will explode 2 sec it is set. and will give effect to the enemy such as knockdown.
if Anet still want to hold its philosophy. this is still viable, because the 1 and 2 Longbow skill is still a “single target sustained damage” (but…….., its still a bad philosophy for a class, since GW2 have dodge mechanic")

potential risk, NONE. because its just changing how the source knockback from single piercing row, to AoE. which will help WvW ranger for using Longbow.

I like the idea of adding additional AoE like this to the longbow, while still keeping a support/control/utility type effect on it. My problem with the Explosive Arrow idea is largely that it reminds me too much of the Warrior longbow (see Arcing Arrow and Combustive Shot).

But I definitely agree that something needs to be done to add increased viability for Rangers in WvWvW zergs.

Aidenwolf.5964:

Rangers are the ONLY CLASS whose class mechanic can die.

And we are the ONLY CLASS that gives 30% of our damage and stats from gear up.

30% is a high price to pay for something that isn’t “always on” as our pets are often called, as when they DIE THEY AREN’T ON.

This is why I keep thinking the solution, if pets are to be integral to the class, is to have more of them so that when one dies, you just send out another one and there is no real penalty to losing them. Earlier, I suggested being able to flip through up to 5 pets. Each time you click on the switch key, you get the next pet. This reply is the point behind it. While there are certainly situations where a sticky stow (where the pet won’t pop out if the Ranger is attacked) would be desirable, it would matter less if pets quickly died in boss fights, against zergs, and so on if the Ranger could jsut pop out another one to keep fighting, whether it be from a larger pool of pets or simply because the pet death cooldown penalty is removed or even reduced when the pet dies.

To add to your complaint, Rangers are also the only class that has to actively worry about keeping their class mechanic and 30% of their damage from dying. Why? Who cares if the pets die like adult Mayflies? The Tyrian Wildlife Federation or the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Digital Animals? Shouldn’t they be spending their time protesting the Ambient Killer daily achievement, instead?

So here’s another specific suggestion and simple to implement suggestion:

Specific Game Mode
WvW/PvE

Proposal Overview
Instead of increasing the recharge time for switching pets from 20 seconds to 60 seconds, decrease the recharge time to 10 seconds to make it faster for the ranger to pop out a new pet when the existing one dies.

Goal of Proposal
The Ranger effectively loses 30% of their damage potential when their pet dies, which is a huge penalty. There are also many situations where pets die quickly and frequently including against zergs in WvW, boss fights in PvE, and just about any situation with large numbers of AoE attacks or large numbers of combatants.

Proposal Functionality
Instead of increasing the recharge time for switching pets from 20 seconds to 60 seconds, decrease the recharge time to 10 seconds to make it faster for the ranger to pop out a new pet when the existing one dies. Alternately, halve the remaining recharge time.

Associated Risks
Uncertain of how it would effect balance in PvP, since I don’t play it.

Part 2:

The Spirits
As mentioned, Spirits should change the weapon skills of the Ranger, similar like usign an envirnmental weapon, the spirits are an environmental effect and should influence your combat skills of the ranger!

Sun Spirit Skills

1) Rays of Light – Hits all targets in a line of sight, piercing through them, dealing weakness (ICD), if the foe suffers on Burning.
2) Ring of Light – Shoots out a Ring of Light, that becomes a catching bind if it hits a foe, immobilizing it. You can launch a second Attack after you catched a foe – Shootign Star, a very fast unblockable Light Sphere that will launch the foe away.
3) Sunset – A sphere of light crushes into the ground settign a large field onto fire that lets enemies burn and receive Vulnerability Stacks per second, while standing in that fire field.
4) Sunrise – A large sphere of light arises from the ground exploding after 3 seconds to deal heavy AoE damage (working like Spirit Rift from GW1 basically)
5) Solar Flare – Blinds all nearby foes and sets them on Burn, that lasts longer, so nearer the foes were you.

Frost Spirit Skills

1) Cold Snap – Freeze a foe to stun the foe, while damaging it over time.
2) Frozen Heart – Reduces a targets Endurance by 50%, removes vigor and 1 another random boon.
3) Blizzard – Creates a heavy Snow Storm, which takes away the sight (not blindness, think on the hallucination effect, just blizzard style, you see nothign but whirling snow), while crippling foes in it.
4) Ice Mirror – Creates a Ice Mirror, that will reflect back ranged attacks and self is protected by retaliation, so destroying it also deals to melee attacks damage.
5) Frozen Soil – Creates a frozen ground, in which downed/defeated players/allies can’t be healed/revived and critical hits have a chance to deal Chill of you.

Stone Spirit Skills

1) Mud Pillars – Mud Pillars arise from the ground target, dealing poison and cripple
2) Stone Barrier – Creates a Barrier Field of Stones around you, that protects you from damage and cures all allies inside from conditions.
3) Gravedigger – Curse a target with Petrification with a large stack of Vulnerability also.
4) Rock Snake – Send out a huge Rock Snake that follows its target, until it hits, creating on the move sharp rocks in the environment, that let you suffer on bleedings, if you touch them. The snake becomes larger and larger so longe the chase goes on until it hits.
5) Quicksand – change it to the skill effect of the EotM Champ Grawls Quicksand, pulling enemies to you and knocking them down periodically

Storm Spirit Skills

1) Lightning Orb – Send out an Orb of Lightning, that deals damage over time to nearby foes , while it slowly moves forward
2) Call of Lightning – a huge Lightning Bolt striks down, dazing all foes in its area of effect
3) Thunderstorm – Create a large area in which many fast lightnings crush down to the ground darget, each dealing a random condition from Confusion, Burning, Blindness Weaknes,s Vulnerability or Torment
4) Sonic Scythes – Send out several Sonic Sicles, that slice through everything, beign unblockable and dealing high stacks of Bleeding, if they all hit a target.
5) Storm Wind – Creates a Storm Wind area, that pushes foes away, if they try to enter it, that negates also projectile attacks

I’m primarily suggesting this for color and role-playing reasons rather than combat effectiveness…

Specific Game Mode
PvE, WvW

Proposal Overview
Rangers and their pets do not get attacked by creatures of the same species as the Ranger’s current pet.

Goal of Proposal
I find it strange that when I’m running around with a snow leopard pet, for example, I get attacked by snow leopards.

Proposal Functionality
Rangers and their pets do not get attacked by creatures of the same species as the Ranger’s current pet. For example, a ranger with a snow leopard pet out would not get attacked by snow leopards but could still get attacked by a jungle stalker. If the ranger attacks them first, they’ll still be attacked.

Associated Risks
There are a few pets where members of the same species can be quite powerful and even event bosses (for example, Reef Drakes and Drake brood mothers) so there may need to be exceptions or a level at which it does apply (for example, Veterans or higher, or exempting high level creatures). Could also cause problems in some encounter areas like the bear cave in Queensdale, where one could just walk in and access the resource nodes inside.

In gw1 we was preparations. Some of them made the arrows do aoe dmg.

I feel that thematically our bows are lackluster and run of the mill. We are suppose to be unparalleled archers that are in tune with nature and spirits, however our bow skills and talents seem to be applicable to other archetypes and professions and they don’t feel unique. I would like to see better animations and designs to make them feel like ranger weapons rather than two bows. The idea would be the make the visual effects of the skills function more like either the swords (spirit animals follow the ranger through the motion) or even the war horn where the ranger summon animals or even aspects of nature (vines, other plants, etc.). Another thought was to help tie the ranger into nature spirits by having for example barrage be changed from what it is not to a long cast time (1-2s) where the ranger fires a spirit arrow that summons a spirit that pulses damage and cripple over a targeted area. As far as traits goes other professions have piercing traits or abilities that innately pierce, so traiting for piercing arrows doesn’t feel unparalleled in skill. I would prefer (thematically, i am not sure how this would affect the effectiveness of the trait) something like bouncing arrows or a PBAoE because this effects would be more unique that just piercing.

tl:dr I rambled a bit how I would prefer bow skills and traits to be more unique and fit in with the whole idea of the ranger (archer, beastmaster, nature spirits).

Aveneo.2068:

misterdevious.6482:

Aveneo.2068:

That’s a shame. Well, not the part about only owning 3 pets but the other things like only having one active pet, levelling (training) it and choosing its abilities sounds a lot more interesting. Sounds a bit like how pets behaved/evolved in GW1.

Yeah building your own pet sounded neat. You can see the old pet customization in action here (In German)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVvK7vqx-Vo&hd=1#t=0m17s

In addition to the skills the drakes have now, there was a passive regen skill, a shake that removed conditions, an evasion skill that made the drake back out of combat, and a roar that weakened enemies.

I WANT THAT!!

ANet, remove the Pet Swap in favor or a single pet and give us back skill customization for it so we can choose which skills our pets should use during a fight! And include passive ‘aura’ skills too! That way people that don’t like their pet can keep it on passive and have it radiate their passive abilities instead! Win-Win for everyone!

This really does seem like one of the best options. Why did they back out of this design in the first place?

xXxOrcaxXx.9328:

What people tend to forget is that the sword #1 leaps do not only inhibit dodges but also movement. So if ANet lets you dodge within a leap, you will still not be able to move as you want.
Therefore I have also suggested to turn sword #2 into a double/triple forward jump and remove the jumps on sword #1.
To your concerns: sword #2 is pretty slow with a long animation time. You probably want to evade instead of using sword #2 to get out of the AoE. Furthermore, sword #2 has no long uptime, so you’re forced to use it almost immediately again in order to close the distance.
You can see my detailed suggestion here

+1, I like it.
I’ve followed this thread a while now and I think beside the pet and the bows, the sword is the biggest issue.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Aveneo.2068:

misterdevious.6482:

Aveneo.2068:

That’s a shame. Well, not the part about only owning 3 pets but the other things like only having one active pet, levelling (training) it and choosing its abilities sounds a lot more interesting. Sounds a bit like how pets behaved/evolved in GW1.

Yeah building your own pet sounded neat. You can see the old pet customization in action here (In German)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVvK7vqx-Vo&hd=1#t=0m17s

In addition to the skills the drakes have now, there was a passive regen skill, a shake that removed conditions, an evasion skill that made the drake back out of combat, and a roar that weakened enemies.

I WANT THAT!!

ANet, remove the Pet Swap in favor or a single pet and give us back skill customization for it so we can choose which skills our pets should use during a fight! And include passive ‘aura’ skills too! That way people that don’t like their pet can keep it on passive and have it radiate their passive abilities instead! Win-Win for everyone!

This really does seem like one of the best options. Why did they back out of this design in the first place?

The only difference between this video and what we have now is the option to select what skills our pets do. Now, that’s awesome and I’m all for that, but if the AI is crap, then the AI is crap. All those skills that we custom pick will work no different than our current pet system to which we can’t custom select skills.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

SkiTz.4590:

This all requires an OVERHAUL. you make it sound as if these are like bandaid fixes. IF it were the case, we would have seen these changes a long time ago

I didn’t suggest any specific way to improve these things, I simply pointed out that they are things that deserve fixing. I do not see how you would conclude from that this requires an overhaul of the whole class.

Additionally, if even half of these things would be addressed, I would be happy. And that again would not demand a completely overhaul of the class.

SkiTz.4590:

All of these problems that you have been listing are not a simple change, it requires a lot of balancing and testing. It’s a massive overhaul, one that I completely do not expect anet to do.

You’re not making any suggestions on how to improve these issues. Until you do, there’s no way you can claim that these things demand an entire overhaul. There are plenty of simple ways to address these problems. And I’ll provide some below.

SkiTz.4590:

Look at the past 1.5 year of ranger fixes. What can you possibly make you say, “you know what, I think we will fix it next time”

You do realize that the whole purpose of this discussion, is for a massive improvement to the ranger class? Not a general patch for all classes, but specifically the ranger.

SkiTz.4590:

They simply can’t. It would require majority of their dev team focusing on ranger, which ain’t happening.

They are focusing on the ranger now with this discussion aren’t they?

SkiTz.4590:

You are asking for unrealistic changes like making rangers on par with guardians in support.

You seriously don’t think that giving the rangers one really good party support skill, would help them be on par with guardians in regards to party support in PVE? How much work can one skill be?

What parties in dungeons need, is protection, healing, and stability. So…. why not give the ranger better access to party-wide buffs that accomplish this?

Regarding pets, if pets took reduced damage from bosses, they wouldn’t die quite so often from them. Seems like an easy fix. Not necessarily the best solution, but a simple solution none the less.

Massive overhaul of the class? I don’t see it.

You just contradicted yourself here (bolded) You say there will be massive improvement but you don’t think this requires an overhaul?

Ok believe what you want to man, but fixing the ranger does require an overhaul, you are blind if you honestly believe this class will get fixed by tweaking a few numbers.

You said there are plenty of “simple ways” to fix majority of the ranger issues.
Do you even play ranger?

This class is broken.
Their DPS is awful compared to every other class
Their surviviablity is mediocre at best.
They literally are useless in WvW (sure you can roam around and kill downlevels by yourself, any class can roam)
Their class mechanic is by far the worst when compared to other classes.
Their party support is terrible

Their mobility is OK(swop and monarchs leaps are nice low CD abilities)
They can perform 1v1 duels OK

You do realize if there were simple ways it would be fixed a long time ago.
All of those things you believe are simple fixes? IMO they are not simple fixes and require a lot of balance and testing

Not even half of those things are fixed easily.

And I’m not sure what you are getting at by saying anet is specifically focusing on ranger for the patch… thats absolutely false lol, why on earth would they ignore the rest of the classes? They will focus each class equally IMO (probably a bit more to ranger sends it needs more help, but still other classes will defintely be looked at )

Oh and they are doing CDIs for every profession, it just so happened ranger is by FAR the most broken so it needed the most attention first.

Part 3:

Refilling the created gaps with new Utility Skills.

- 4 Shouts > 4 Nature Spells
- 4 Traps integrated into Traits/Weapon Skills > 4 Preparations
- Signet Merge > 1 New Signet
- Survival Merge + QZ Removal > 2 New Survival Skills
—-
Total = 11 new Utility Skills to refill the gaps, that should be more usefull/interesting, than the old ones were.

Nature Spells

Root Whips
Summon at a ground target some Root Whips, which will lash at any nearby foes, launchign them away and dealing bleeding damage, or pulling them nearer into their field either

Toxic Flowers
Creates a flower field of flowers that create toxic spores to get shot out, if a foe goes through the field, lettign the foe suffer on poison and torment as also blindness randomly and in random chance lets the victim see also hallucinations that blend into the players screen making it harde to see something.

Call of the Nature
Summons some random animal allies to your side for 20 seconds.
Cures a condition of you and your allies in the near.

Natural Armor
Gain stability and protection while on land, swiftness while in water plus temporarely some toughness for every Boon on you.

Preparations

Read the Wind/Water
Gain Swiftness, your next 5 ranged attacks move 50% faster, while your next 5 melee attacks let you gain back some endurance.

Edge of Extinction
The next time you kill a target, all nearby foes will also receive damage based on a percentage of 20% from the maximum health the killed target had and crippling those foes, if one survives that attack.

Trapper’s Expertise
Increases Trap/Mine Damage temporarely by 50% for the next 3 traps that activate, you gain fury and quickness for 3 seconds

Survival Kit
A little survival kit, that replaces your weapon skills for one time use Survival Skills

1) Band Aid – heals you and cures bleeding, poison and weakness.
2) Survival Dagger – Throw a Survival Dagger at a fow, dealing Bleeding, while this attack leeches some health and gives it to you and your pet.
3) Provision – Place an environmental food item, that gives you a 1 minute random Buff Food Buff
4) Survival Utensils – Place an environmental Oil/Sharpening Stone that gives you a 1 Minute Oil or Stone Buff
5) Adrenaline Needle – Gain Swiftness and Might, cure cripple, chill, daze and stun.

Signet of Beast Mastery
Passive: Allows you to have 2 Pets at the same time, but reduces each Pets Health/Stats by 20%
Active: Based on which two Pets you combine, they will perform a different Pet Combo Attack. After that Attack will be both pets stowed, until the Signet has recharged.

Survivals

Smell of the Hidden
Become temporarely able to see stealthed enemies.
But while using it, your character is highly concentrated, gains protection, but can’t move, while trying to locate the smell of a stealthed foe.

Camouflage
Stealth for maximum 10 seconds, but the stealth ends, if you move. Gain Regeneration and Vigor for 5 seconds. Increases Damage of ranged attacks, if you attack a foe while Camouflage is active. Camouflage ends also, if you attack a foe out of the Stealth getting revealed.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

You do realize that the whole purpose of this discussion, is for a massive improvement to the ranger class? Not a general patch for all classes, but specifically the ranger.

Well…

Allie Murdock.8152:

We’re seeing that power creep is a big problem in the game right now, so bringing the Ranger up to snuff would only exacerbate that. When we do balance patches, we like to look at every class and where they are at so we can balance appropriately throughout.

Of course, it can be hard to account for certain things when doing these patches, which is why we’re trying to do the patches less frequently so we can properly gauge what needs to be done (that’s not to say that we won’t hotfix any major issues that arise).

:D

ItIsFinished.9462:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Aveneo.2068:

misterdevious.6482:

Aveneo.2068:

That’s a shame. Well, not the part about only owning 3 pets but the other things like only having one active pet, levelling (training) it and choosing its abilities sounds a lot more interesting. Sounds a bit like how pets behaved/evolved in GW1.

Yeah building your own pet sounded neat. You can see the old pet customization in action here (In German)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVvK7vqx-Vo&hd=1#t=0m17s

In addition to the skills the drakes have now, there was a passive regen skill, a shake that removed conditions, an evasion skill that made the drake back out of combat, and a roar that weakened enemies.

I WANT THAT!!

ANet, remove the Pet Swap in favor or a single pet and give us back skill customization for it so we can choose which skills our pets should use during a fight! And include passive ‘aura’ skills too! That way people that don’t like their pet can keep it on passive and have it radiate their passive abilities instead! Win-Win for everyone!

This really does seem like one of the best options. Why did they back out of this design in the first place?

The only difference between this video and what we have now is the option to select what skills our pets do. Now, that’s awesome and I’m all for that, but if the AI is crap, then the AI is crap. All those skills that we custom pick will work no different than our current pet system to which we can’t custom select skills.

Except the part where it includes passive aura skills too.

pvp specific;

need some sort of utility skill that actively with a reasonable cooldown removes conditions. The ranger is seriously lacking in this aspect and with the current condition meta in pvp right now the ranger doesn’t stand a chance at mitigating any condition damage.

risks:
make the condition removal too strong or on too low of a CD and you’ll make the ranger imperverish towards conditions but not giving him any active condition removal will mean the end of the profession in pvp.

Even on this very page I’ve seen people mention changing shouts and putting some of their functionality on F1-F4. I agree, honestly. Sic ’Em begs to be an F1 ability with a cooldown that helps either speed up or boost your pets damage on a cooldown. Guard could easily be made an F2 skill that tells your pet to stick to an area, without the stealth or protection. Protect Me could be F3 and would be like Mesmer’s F4, where the pet immediately stops attacking and sticks close to you along with the immunity effect. Ranger F4 would then be pet swap.

In fact, instead of having a single unique skill for each pet, F1-F3 could all be pet skills based on those three shouts. Many pet types could share a number of them, but say a snow pet might cause the F1 Sic ’Em skill to cast Chill on a hit. The F3 Protect Me would grant you Regeneration if you had a Bear out or Stability if you had a Boar. If pets still had four skills in this case, the one not on the Ranger’s bar would be the auto-attack. The F2 Guard could give an AoE boon, blast finisher, or combo field in the targeted area depending on pet.

I also like the idea of making one of the Ranger healing skills (probably Heal As One) able to revive your Pet.

Edit: Additional change. Make the F1-F3 skills have a base functionality that always works (target this guy, stay in this area, return to me) but then also have a skill attached that the pet uses if it’s on cooldown. The Ranger never sees these cooldowns directly but instead their F1-F3 icons glow when the pet is ready to use their particular skill in combination with each command. Alternatively, you can have the F1-F3 icons swap to a vanilla “just do this thing” icon when the pet can’t use the skill tied to that icon.

I think pet customization was thrown out because so many people insisted they should be able to collect all the pets and use all the pets. Then pet swapping was introduced to make the mechanic more active. The stay command was thrown out to make way for the F2 pet skill for more interactive play. We never did find out what most of the optional pet skills were.

We did find out that Devourers could slot a Blinding Cloud AoE attack (awesome), a tunneling attack that came up under the target, their tailspikes could be traited to pierce, and Whiptail Devourers could hurl a boulder to knock people down (still has that icon). The current devourers are quite blah in comparison.

Cats could pounce on foes to knock them down, snarl to weaken foes, I think one was a self heal…

Being able to choose your pets skills would indeed be very cool. I think they said there were 1,680 possible skill combinations on each species.

I don’t think they should let you swap skills on the same pet. I think the idea of each pet being a set of skills with similarities between pets of the same biome and same species (almost like what we have right now) works better for everyone involved. Even if you can’t find the perfect pet for your playstyle you can still get one that’s close until you travel to the required area. Balancing and build creation also becomes a lot easier.

Just a random thought (and I apologise if this has already been mentioned; respect to the devs for keeping up with 62 pages but I can’t spare that sort of time).

What if rangers had some traits, perhaps in Wilderness Survival or wherever applicable, that reduced condition duration – and even a grandmaster trait or two providing outright immunity to one, e.g. poison or blind?

For example Sight Beyond Sight. Interesting skill from the Rit in GW1. Perhaps when you have a spirit active, you can’t be blinded – GM trait in Nature Magic line.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Hey all,

I just wanted to clarify since we saw some confusion about this, both in this thread and on Reddit. The summary I posted was a summary of feedback I took from you guys in this thread and sent to the devs. It is not a reflection of changes that are or will be made (necessarily).

That doesn’t mean we aren’t doing anything about the feedback in the summary, it just shouldn’t be considered “Balance update notes”.

Hopefully that clears up some of the confusion.

Does that mean feedback that wasn’t included in your summary isn’t going to be seen by the devs or is going to be less prominent in the discussions?

Shiren.9532:

Allie Murdock.8152:

Hey all,

I just wanted to clarify since we saw some confusion about this, both in this thread and on Reddit. The summary I posted was a summary of feedback I took from you guys in this thread and sent to the devs. It is not a reflection of changes that are or will be made (necessarily).

That doesn’t mean we aren’t doing anything about the feedback in the summary, it just shouldn’t be considered “Balance update notes”.

Hopefully that clears up some of the confusion.

Does that mean feedback that wasn’t included in your summary isn’t going to be seen by the devs or is going to be less prominent in the discussions?

It means Allie is the only one reading this thread; she made a “note list” that the devs read.

So, just to be clear: it seems the devs didn’t bother reading all the suggestions in this thread but just the notes Allie passed them.

I hope I’m wrong.

Dave Pare.2069:

Shiren.9532:

Allie Murdock.8152:

Hey all,

I just wanted to clarify since we saw some confusion about this, both in this thread and on Reddit. The summary I posted was a summary of feedback I took from you guys in this thread and sent to the devs. It is not a reflection of changes that are or will be made (necessarily).

That doesn’t mean we aren’t doing anything about the feedback in the summary, it just shouldn’t be considered “Balance update notes”.

Hopefully that clears up some of the confusion.

Does that mean feedback that wasn’t included in your summary isn’t going to be seen by the devs or is going to be less prominent in the discussions?

It means Allie is the only one reading this thread; she made a “note list” that the devs read.

So, just to be clear: it seems the devs didn’t bother reading all the suggestions in this thread but just the notes Allie passed them.

I hope I’m wrong.

You’re not wrong. I give Anet some grief at time’s but no way did I expect the devs to read this entire clusterkitten.