Guild Wars 2

coronaas.4362:

The post started to give me a headache but I think he either said to stop being a jerk on the forums or if you don’t like the game to just leave

anyone care to clarify?

I think both were said in a very nice way and with more words.

I’m never going to forget that there was probably a Scope’s Broke thread per month on the Engineer boards before the 285-day mark, where somebody posted about it in the sPvP boards. A month or two later, the thing’s been replaced with something functional.

You want us to think you’re paying attention, actually do so.

Also, I can’t help but recall seeing a blog post by a particular member of the staff wherein they claim to have been pulled aside by management for setting a standard of communication that they didn’t feel other departments should feel the need to meet.

Presumably they were talking to us when they didn’t have breadcrumbs to throw.

The Lost Witch.7601:

Sungak Alkandenes.1369:

The Lost Witch.7601:

So, would it be possible to make an extra tumbs up (a star?) for the Arenanet team? To let us know what kind of feedback has been read and appreciated?

I know that responding to all the threads that come up on these forums everyday is too much to ask, but a star or other sign of approval could really make a big difference. Not only could it inspire people to write better feedback, it also gives us an incentive to write more of the good stuff if we know that our previous posts have been appreciated.

There is, occasionally, a red line under the ‘thumbs up’ symbol. It would not surprise me if that’s a notification that an ArenaNet employee hit the +1. If not, it should be.

Nope, I believe this has something to do with wether it got a thumbs up from people within the thread, or people across the forum. (I’m guessing through other parts of the forum like the dev tracker?)

At least, that’s what I’ve been able to discover about this mysterious red line through browsing the ‘forums’ section of the forum.

OK, so that sounds like a ‘trackback/pingback’ indicator like you’d see in a weblog. Interesting.

If that’s the case, the color should be changed to black (to indicate an automated part of the forum system) and not red (that – on this forum anyway – tends to indicate Dev activity to most people). That’s (usually) a 30-second fix in a CSS file someplace.

Martin Kerstein.3071:

This thread is about discussing the post from Chris Whiteside, not the moderation on this forum. Please focus on the topic at hand. Any further posts discussing things not related to the original post will be removed.

If you don’t want us discussing forum moderation, perhaps it would be best for all involved if CC Danicia’s post about forum moderation were removed to avoid any confusion? It would be very easy for someone to assume that an ArenaNet employee’s post regarding forum moderation makes it fair game/on-topic.

style.6173:

Actually I think ANET for the most part does listen when it comes to PvE. The problem is that the PvP team is stubborn and won’t increase game modes (hello team deathmatch) and the WvW team is completely out of touch. The WvW team in particular is a problem.

This is just disrespectful towards the PvP devs, the teams have clearly stated why they don’t want too many modes. They also mentioned that they are testing a lot of other modes as well. I’m happy that they don’t listen to knee-jerk reactions, maybe it would help to watch a few of the older released PvP-state of the game videos to get a bit of insight. It’s quite complicated.

WvW team out of touch? Because they don’t open WvW to the GvG-crowd which isn’t playing the mode as intended? You don’t play basketball in the last minutes of a soccermatch which is already decided, because soccer fans would hate this. I love the implementation of the new map-centres of the borderland maps. I’ve played quite a bit WvW since the implementation of the buff and it is half as bad because of the nature of it’s implementation: it changes quite fast and often.

Personally I would have gone with something different than a statistical boon, but it’s not easy to come up with something which gives people reason enough to capture these points. I would have enjoyed more breakout events / npcs who bring along siege when 3 of 5 points are capped instead of the buff, but I guess the crowd which is stubbornly against any npc-interaction in WvW would have been against such a thing.

The GW1 the community heard from them quite often ingame aka The Frog chats etc and on the forums so it would be nice if we heard from them more than what we have from the past year. It seems like they are still in say nothing thinking mode like when they went dark after they anncounced GW2.

After last week’s fiasco I feel too much emphasis is being placed on this near real time content than really taking the time to make sure it’s done right and thoroughly tested. If you don’t know I ‘m talking about I’m talking about the WvW being shut down for like 8 hours because a game breaking bug got in. Plus we still don’t have all the mini games like the shooting range, bar brawl with all the man power for near real time content we get. Yeah it nice and at times some of it feels overwhelming.

WvW needs allot of love still and something still needs to be done about the supply/siege trolls that plague all the servers with reports filled with screenshots/video has done nothing to lessen the problem.

Other than trying to diffuse the angry posts in the forums, I’m guessing the main point of this topic is about getting people to discuss about implementing the direction of the “living world” (I notice it’s no longer living “story”).
One take away is there is probably no traditional expansion, full stop. The “living world” is them putting their foot on the ground.

Having said that, it sounds like they’re wanting to push towards a more player driven content style of content (that’s really the only way to make a world “living”), and have no an idea on how to do this (hence “collaborative development”).
I have no real input other than I don’t think they have the tools or resource to do this in a timely fashion, nor do I think their engine is capable to do so (at this point of time). (Negative nancy, I know)

I guess they could put something similar to WvW points system/capture system, except in the open world that helps debuffs world bosses to make it easier for casuals to take down eg. Tequalt (probably considered grindy, though, and expect complaints from hardcore players saying the game is too easy again).

Xcom.1926:

Chris, I appreciate the post. However, I would appreciate it even more if you guys could do something like a State of the Game. And what we should expect moving forward. A lot of players don’t know where GW2 is going and they don’t know what to expect. It seems like a game without direction at the moment, and to me that is the key issue. There seems to be some sort of indecisiveness within GW2 (real or perceived).

You don’t have to do something like that, but players would like to see something like that. People are not being negative for no reason (most of the time). There are some underlying issues why it seems like people are upset. And yes I agree, being a troll or angry is not the best way to go about it.

I am afraid without tackling the root issue, nothing will change.

I think that frequent state of the game posts would help out. One thing for all of us to keep in mind is that being negative and insulting drives people away. You can be critical without insulting people.

BlueZone.4236:

Other than trying to diffuse the angry posts in the forums, I’m guessing the main point of this topic is about getting people to discuss about implementing the direction of the “living world” (I notice it’s no longer living “story”).
One take away is there is probably no traditional expansion, full stop. The “living world” is them putting their foot on the ground.

Having said that, it sounds like they’re wanting to push towards a more player driven content style of content (that’s really the only way to make a world “living”), and have no an idea on how to do this (hence “collaborative development”).
I have no real input other than I don’t think they have the tools or resource to do this in a timely fashion, nor do I think their engine is capable to do so (at this point of time). (Negative nancy, I know)

I guess they could put something similar to WvW points system/capture system, except in the open world that helps debuffs world bosses to make it easier for casuals to take down eg. Tequalt (probably considered grindy, though, and expect complaints from hardcore players saying the game is too easy again).

That clarified things for me. To be honest, I don’t know if they have a firm plan and are just working towards it without letting us know exactly what it is or if they just have a vague idea and are trying this, that, and the other to see what sticks.

Regardless, I’m looking forward to the Mad King stuff.

Can we have open bug tracker system so players could know what developers work on currently?

Hyperionkhv.1978:

Can we have open bug tracker system so players could know what developers work on currently?

From this post, doing something like that would just increase all the negativity and would lead to 90% of this forum’s participants getting banned because out of the hundreds that would be posted on it, 2 will be fixed in a year’s time, with the rest having a red post with “we’re working on it”.

Hyperionkhv.1978:

Can we have open bug tracker system so players could know what developers work on currently?

That will never happen and would be a PR nightmare from hell.

A MMO coming out and the ad would be look at GW2 with all its bugs/issues and no we won’t have those problems so buy our game instead.

I understood what he was saying, but couldn’t help but chuckle throughout most of it (or what I read, it skips around the points on something that can be said in a single sentence). You’re trying, we get it. But saying you aren’t one for excuses and then saying you’ve been busy is frankly laughable. The only people who aren’t busy are the < 18 crowd and people with no need to work for a living. I know you guys can’t be frank with us and just give a direct answer in fear of driving off the community (which I’ve seen obliterate game communities in the past), but the whole twinkie on the end of a fishing pole attempt to keep us playing is beginning to wear us down. Either communicate (Don’t most large companies have some sort of community manager(s)? Why do I never see them?) or demonstrate capability. I think that’s all most of us ask.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Therefore you have to ask yourself: Is this a journey you want to take? Are you comfortable with expecting the unexpected, and ultimately working together in a positive and productive manner through thick and thin, to pioneer in a space that the team at ArenaNet feel is of huge importance? Many of you are not only comfortable with this paradigm but embrace it, and your contribution, as you know has already shaped Tyria immensely, for which we are extremely grateful and excited about.

I’m game to participate in the journey. What is the best way to get on board? I know I’ve participated in a few discussions on theses forums about a particular idea where a member of the development team participated in the discussion and we tossed some ideas back and forth and it was a very constructive discussion. That one was about the idea of a dynamic respawn algorithm to help avoid a commonly complained about issue of mobs respawning while you’re fighting a vet or champ when no other players have come into the immediate area.

While discussions like that are valuable and demonstrate how the dev team and the player community can have valuable discussion, I’ve also seen many other issues that apparently are ignored. I’m sure they aren’t being really ignored, but the silence gives that impression. An example of that might be the dozens and dozens of threads in the Ranger forum about the need for multiple improvements in the Pet mechanic. Maybe there have been constructive dev interactions on the forums about ways to improve Pets, but if there are I apologize I’ve overlooked them.

Anyway, count me in on the journey. I just want to make sure we’re participating in ways that you find valuable.

This is basically what I’ve been saying all along. Instead of being rude, making up stuff, or using hyperbole (wild exaggeration) to try to make a point, if people stuck to facts and stated opinions in a non-derogatory way, those opinions would hold more traction.

The job that Anet devs have is impossible. Everyone wants to be listened to, but not everyone agrees. If they listen to group 1, then group 2 says Anet doesn’t listen to its fans. If they listen to group 2, then group 1 gets upset.

But so many come to these forums to deride the game, rather than help it grow…and that shouldn’t be acceptable to anyone.

So many people have called me on saying that the game is doing well, even when I’m only responding to a post that says the game is dying. We have about equal evidence, but apparently, people are willing to allow the dying post to go unmolested, while my response to that post gets attacked? Why? Because it’s fun to attack white knights…except it’s not about white knighting. It’s about keeping it honest.

The stuff Chris has said in this post, including how the living story is in its infancy and will need time to grow (I say the same thing about dungeons without the trinity)…it’s a learning curve for everyone…and a steep one.

Being respectful will make this community and these forums a more enjoyable place to post. If you just want to hate, you’re not helping anyone.

Too many people claim to say they post for the good of the game, but post in ways which can’t do anything but hurt the game.

You want feedback to fixing your game?

1.) Extrinsic rewards need to be provided away from RNG/Gold. Your skinner box is really poorly designed, to many players are smashing that button down and getting nothing out, while only a couple are getting 800g precursors on the first push. This is ultimately frustrating, there is no way to work towards any cosmetic item in a ‘fun’ matter that doesn’t involve champ train or TP flipping.

2.) Precursor crafting should be pushed to highest priority, not last item on the list

3.) Real Quality of life changes: Dual Specialization, LFG Tool takes you to dungeon (no porting to map), WvW map viewable before going inside, Glory tradable for PvE items, UI for Mini (separate from bank), Achievement Meta rewards placed in the achievement item panel (why are players left with the ever increasing amounts of backitems they may be to scared to use because they only got 1), and account-bound WvW rank and FOTM levels.

4.) Fotm rewards are lacking after a player receives their back-item and rings.

5.) Reward vs. Time vs. Skill Charts, this is really lop sided, why is farming champs or TP flipping more rewarding than say arah p4, or 8 orb Liadari, or even fotm (your ‘end-game’ dungeon).

6.) Heading back to GW lore, the LS has gone way off base and most people can’t seem to follow the story as to what is happening. I’m pretty sure a lot of us still don’t understand who Scarlet is and why she does what she does.

Vayne.8563:

This is basically what I’ve been saying all along. Instead of being rude, making up stuff, or using hyperbole (wild exaggeration) to try to make a point, if people stuck to facts and stated opinions in a non-derogatory way, those opinions would hold more traction.

The job that Anet devs have is impossible. Everyone wants to be listened to, but not everyone agrees. If they listen to group 1, then group 2 says Anet doesn’t listen to its fans. If they listen to group 2, then group 1 gets upset.

But so many come to these forums to deride the game, rather than help it grow…and that shouldn’t be acceptable to anyone.

So many people have called me on saying that the game is doing well, even when I’m only responding to a post that says the game is dying. We have about equal evidence, but apparently, people are willing to allow the dying post to go unmolested, while my response to that post gets attacked? Why? Because it’s fun to attack white knights…except it’s not about white knighting. It’s about keeping it honest.

The stuff Chris has said in this post, including how the living story is in its infancy and will need time to grow (I say the same thing about dungeons without the trinity)…it’s a learning curve for everyone…and a steep one.

Being respectful will make this community and these forums a more enjoyable place to post. If you just want to hate, you’re not helping anyone.

Too many people claim to say they post for the good of the game, but post in ways which can’t do anything but hurt the game.

I agree!

nethykins.7986:

Thanks for this post Chris – though I think you have to be “black and white” and your choices you’ve made in game.

So far, what i’ve seen is:
- Ascended gear was added not because we asked for it (in fact, you guys stated you didn’t want to be like other games and add another tier of gear), instead it was because you found that people were gaining their legendaries too fast for you too curb. You underestimated player’s potential then fumbled and released something which Anet had openly said, they’d wished they’d released it in a better fashion.

Not to mention stating that there would be multiple ways of getting ascended items then implementing it such that there is 1 major way of getting each ascended item and maybe another way that costs significantly more. If we misinterpreted what Chris said then perhaps he should have explained it further. Seriously its not hard to see why there’s anger here.

Respect has to go both ways. Just saying.

I agree with the tenor of the majority of the post – these forums have become pretty toxic in areas over the course of the year – but then again I suspect such toxicity does come from a genuine place of concern, passion and unhappiness with the game as it stands.

If no one cared, then no one would post. Many can see the potential greatness of the game and are frustrated with the directions taken and the opportunities “missed”.

That said, a couple of points I’d like to put my two cents worth in on:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

We do need to build out more time to be in dialog with you, specifically, following up on our own investigations of your suggestions and concerns.
We will work harder to achieves this.

As the post is titled “Collaborative Development”, I have to say that there is a long way to go on this score. ArenaNet’s policies are very restrictive when it comes to interacting with the forum, and it’s obvious to most people when they are being “handled”. The Super Adventure Box, World 2 situation is my case-in-point on this. Josh Foreman’s interaction with the forum should have been the model case for other developers. Instead it was taken as an example of what not to do.

True interaction with the customers in an MMO forum is messy. Developers will make mistakes and over-state things, community managers will have to do a lot of damage control at times, but if you are honest and detailed in your interactions then the players will eventually trust what you say and feel their feedback is valuable.

I think another element that would help with this would be lifting the curtain on game changes much earlier than what you do currently. As an example, CCP is releasing an expansion on 11 November, but they are already publishing detailed blogs illustrating exactly what changes are being made, right down to the numbers they have in progress on their test server.

This is one example of a more open team that could be described as “collaborative” in their approach to the playerbase.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

We are also trying to forge a truly ‘Living World’. Therefore with your continued support, and patience we can continue to break new ground. Not just with world of Tyria, but with the method by which we build worlds ‘together’.

The Living World is a bit of a conundrum that I wish you would open a more focused debate on. The concept is attractive, but in application it seems to be falling short. It’s an odd concept as it stands, whereas the world was designed and launched as a “themepark” application (with static zones and static attractions), the post-launch focus has been trying to layer a more “sandbox” approach on top of it and the dissonance between the two paradigms jars more than a little.

Personally I think the concept has merit, but the half-measured implementation of the “Living Story” currently is not very strong. Implementing a dynamic world is fine, but to do it right entails revamping the Personal Story to jive with it, reordering and cementing the timeline of the game out of this weird, nebulous “everything is happening concurrently” state it’s in now, and focusing a great deal more on plots, pacing and character development such that people care about where the story is going and are not just looking for the most optimal way to farm the new content.

Which also brings up an important point. Most everyone appreciates the fact that there is no carrot-on-a-stick treadmill at max level, however there does seem to be a real lack of novel things to do for max level characters that don’t involve farming for one thing or another. sPvP and WvW could be those things, but only for a certain subset of the population. What is really needed is some kind of expansive system that draws in max level PvE players. Zone-wide, massive multiplayer, coordinated PvE events / raids – essentially a PvE version of WvW – would be my suggestion, but that’s another area that could stand focused discussion and brainstorming with the active playerbase on the forums.

Things I want:
Cantha
New elder dragon story
Cantha
precursor building – biggest priority
Cantha
adding zones into empty spaces around the Sea of Sorrows
Cantha
make SAB permanent
Cantha
Make Tequatl fightable for unorganised groups again.
Full underwater zone.
Split HM Tequatl into guild mission or special event which appears on everyone’s displays with the option to insta join
Also, Cantha

Mortifer.2946:

Things I want:
Cantha
New elder dragon story
Cantha
precursor building – biggest priority
Cantha
adding zones into empty spaces around the Sea of Sorrows
Cantha
make SAB permanent
Cantha
Make Tequatl fightable for unorganised groups again.
Full underwater zone.
Split HM Tequatl into guild mission or special event which appears on everyone’s displays with the option to insta join
Also, Cantha

You missed Canth..oh wait.

The devs are listening. They’ll add all this “soon” as they are “working on it” and “nothing is off the table”.

Hi Chris,

So I played open beta/launch, and before halloween of last year I stopped playing gw2 because looking back the fixed weapon skills made the combat lacking for me but came back for the halloween event last year and played until I took another break when laurels/dailies/ascended came. I started playing again for the blue dragon wings but then stopped again.

The inherent problem was always the fixed nature of the weapon skills for me.

How will the new skills be introduced? Will existing weapons have pools of skills to choose from or is Anet’s stance firm on it’s fixed nature? Will elites continue to function as long cooldown, large effect? Personally, I would love my necro to have Toxic Chill, and I would love it more if it was on a small cooldown with a small effect. Rune effects from elites shouldn’t determine the cooldown of the skill imo.

For me, meta in gw2 is focused on traits, type of stats, runes, sigils, and amount of stats while fixed weapon skills, and the elite skill usually fall into place. Utilities have the most wiggle room in build making from my perspective.

From my perspective the pve content seems to largely be designed around the type of stats the player brings to the fight and while there is a lot to customize my build with traits etc the fixed nature of the skills I actually press has no customization other than swapping to another fixed set.

I hope the community will chill more and not be so toxic in posting their feedback.

morrolan.9608:

nethykins.7986:

Thanks for this post Chris – though I think you have to be “black and white” and your choices you’ve made in game.

So far, what i’ve seen is:
- Ascended gear was added not because we asked for it (in fact, you guys stated you didn’t want to be like other games and add another tier of gear), instead it was because you found that people were gaining their legendaries too fast for you too curb. You underestimated player’s potential then fumbled and released something which Anet had openly said, they’d wished they’d released it in a better fashion.

Not to mention stating that there would be multiple ways of getting ascended items then implementing it such that there is 1 major way of getting each ascended item and maybe a couple of other ways that cost significantly more. If we interpreted what Chris said then perhaps he should have explained it further. Seriously its not hard to see why there’s anger here.

Why does anger have to equal disrespect? I get angry sometimes, but that doesn’t mean I have to be disrespectful.

No one is saying not to have feelings about the game. But expressing those feels in a derogatory manner (and by the way I’ve never seen you do that), shouldn’t be allowed or acceptable.

Grimthagen.6019:

Personally I think the concept has merit, but the half-measured implementation of the “Living Story” currently is not very strong. Implementing a dynamic world is fine, but to do it right entails revamping the Personal Story to jive with it, reordering and cementing the timeline of the game out of this weird, nebulous “everything is happening concurrently” state it’s in now, and focusing a great deal more on plots, pacing and character development such that people care about where the story is going and are not just looking for the most optimal way to farm the new content.

I think they need to define living world better if they truly want collaboration. As it stand I think of the term as a sandbox but GW2 is clearly not a sandbox. If its merely things like voting for 2 candidates that anet chooses then its not living its merely branching.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

The communication pipeline in most part lacks one very important component. Specifically, ArenaNet having more time to feedback on your ideas, concerns and our own plans.

Chris, the reality is, though, that it isn’t that you don’t have time to give feedback to your player base. This statement makes it seem as though no one at ANet has any control over time allocation. It is far more likely that whoever is in charge is not making the time available for this to happen.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

We do need to build out more time to be in dialog with you, specifically, following up on our own investigations of your suggestions and concerns.
We will work harder to achieves this.

Thank you for acknowledging this. I do wish that there was more of a concrete commitment here. Simply saying “We will work harder to achieve this” feels a bit like vague hand waving.

It is just frustrating when normal constructive feedback on player dissatisfaction with Living Story gets little to no response, and yet your response to unconstructive feedback is a quite lengthy (and pretty sincere, I think) post… in which you state that you guys don’t really respond to unconstructive feedback. It seems quite contradictory.

It is quite apparent that there has been a lot of negative feedback in regards to the quality, quantity, and pace of Living Story releases, yet there has been little to no response (or even casual acknowledgement) from you guys. If you allow that kind of frustration to fester, of course it is going to get progressively less and less constructive.

I feel that you guys are so focused on what you want to give us, you are refusing to hear what we actually want. So, this journey you are talking about taking us on? If it’s going to be all about what you want, then, to be honest… I’m not sure that I do want to go on it with you. Being dragged all over the place by someone who doesn’t care what you’re interested in, but keeps telling you “Hey, you’re going to love this next place I’m taking you to!” isn’t fun in the least. But if you’re open to discussing the itinerary and destination, then maybe we can plan this trip together.

Theftwind.8976:

Respect has to go both ways. Just saying.

Hate to be the one to post one of these types of posts, but here we go.

^This.

Just have one thing to say. You have to give respect, to earn respect. And with the way things are going and have been going on these forums, don’t expect to receive any respect.

There is so many things that you’ve tried to “sweep under the rug” and completely ignore. That is completely disrespectful. And then you make this post telling us all to be respectful to you after you have disrespected us so many times?

Yeah, no. I get it. It’s your way or the highway type deal here. But until you can admit fault and show respect to us as a community and not ignore us over serious issues and concerns, then don’t expect us to treat you any differently than you treat us.

The post seemed to me to be saying that they will happily ignore people who are aggressive and disrespectful.

While understandable on a human level I think this is a bad mistake on a professional level. There is a reason why many people are disrespectful, especially when the devs have just implemented a change or nerf to the game. The reason is that these people are passionate about the game too, they care about the change and are frustrated by it.

While we can all hope for a nice cosy utopia where we all say thank you when hit by a nerf bat it simply isn’t reality. Also, respect needs to run both ways and some of the changes made by ANet, along with a lack of communication, shows a lack of respect to many players; which in turn leads to some of the more inflammatory expressions.

ie. Don’t ignore your customers opinions just because they are annoyed and frustrated by what you do.

Chris, appreciate that you took the time to post. I know ANet is pushing a lot of content, probably understaffed, overworked and holidays are coming (which can often be busy time for game development in the face of hoped-for-vacations).

As I’ve said in posts before, it is perfectly reasonable to be appreciative of developer efforts and unhappy with the results.

I understand the iterative process of development (retired software dev here). I have to laugh because that is how everyone in my guild plays. It’s a process near and dear to us.

We still have very real concerns about the game.

Chris, your post starting this thread has added to our unease.

Buying and playing an MMO is both an emotional decision and an emotional experience. We whole heartedly embraced the new direction of mobile combat and lateral gear progression in an MMO. We were convinced GW2 was going to be our “last” MMO after 13 years of looking for the game that offered our small swat-team the play we enjoyed (5-man).

We are seeing increasing additions to the game from other genres (Nintendo), and non-permanent campaign content (Living Story) within the framework of an MMO (defined as a persistent world). Some could say this is modifying the MMO and moving the genre forward. We could say it is trying to twist an MMO in a direction it shouldn’t go. Experimentation can be a wonderful thing. As long as customers KNOW that they are buying into that BEFORE purchasing the game. We didn’t. And we feel blindsided.

Wish that had been communicated before we fell in love with the game play.

We’ve also asked for more transparency, and ANet is turning around and responding. Thank everyone for that, and we’d like to see more, please.

As we struggle with over 6 months of releases that have in effect served to alienate us, and yet we are continuing to support and help ANet where we can, we are left consistently wondering if ANet even wants us as customers.

The thing we’d like, more than anything having to do with game details, mechanics, etcetera, is a clear, definitive communication of how ANet sees this game. Is it an MMO, is it a hybrid, is it a graft of different non-MMO games onto a framework? Is it just an on-going experiment?

_Uneasy customers

When I first started playing the game, I made a point of visiting the “player helping other players” section, so that I could focus on the positives. I was never out to get anyone. The last time I posted in these forums, it was a post that showed the numbers for how often ArenaNet gave substantive responses to “popular” posts. It was just data, without any editorial commentary from me. I explained my methodology so that it could be fairly discussed. What can be less inflammatory and more respectful than plain old data? It was promptly dismissed by a community manager.

You couldn’t even take un-editorialized data onboard. Given that, I find it really hard to believe that you listen to feedback. To be honest, I feel dumb posting this.

It appears that you only consider quantitative data, like concurrency numbers. So, while I’d like to log in to level my alts and wait for changes, I feel that just serves to make you more intransigent on issues I care about. And, I wouldn’t mind posting constructive criticism, but it does seem wholly unwelcome and a waste of time.

I really did like the game (especially the art because omg, it’s so good). I’m sorry that you have to deal with so much negativity now. But, I think that you’re not taking enough ownership for your part in creating this environment. And, if you want change, you need to be that change too.

Enikuo.9205:

[SNIP] …I think that you’re not taking enough ownership for your part in creating this environment. And, if you want change, you need to be that change too.

I think that’s an important point that deserves to be read a second time. And probably a third.

Actually, perhaps they should just print it out and tape it to a wall in their offices.

Kimyrielle.3826:

@Chris: I hear (and believe!) you guys reading these forums a lot and trying very hard to separate the good from the bad suggestions discussed here and take some of what we say into shaping the future of this game. I also fully support the urge for people being polite (evidently that’s not a given in the gaming community, sadly as is).

However, communication is a two-way process.

Personally I sometimes wish that if the community is engaged in a very lively discussion about something (a recent example would be the issue about hardcore vs. casual content), that developers would weigh in and offer -their- perspective and reasoning and plans for the future. It can be frustrating offering a lot of feedback and ideas (and yes, I know that some of what we say might be silly or infeasible), and getting not a lot of reaction in return. Being able to listen is good. Being able and willing to explain is better.

This pretty much echoes my own thoughts.

It’s easy for anyone to see that these boards are active enough, and the game development is active enough, for it to be impossible for ANet developers to respond to every little topic and suggestion. It’s also absolutely beneficial to precisely no one when ideas are ranted, raved and screamed about instead of discussed in a mature and open manner. Regardless of how you feel about something, positive or negative, that’s something we could definitely use more of.

For all of the topics, arguments and debate, however, there are absolutely some topics that clearly need and deserve a response from up on high. It’s not hard to see that a handful of topics do keep continually popping up, or whose threads grow ever longer by the hour. As much as ANet might not like it, there are needs for being definitive and “black and white.” Things like Cantha/Expansion Packs, the hardcore/casual divide, LS content being delivered faster than many players feel is healthy for themselves or the game, Ascended Gear and the apparent ANet flip flop on the topic, perceived silencing of developers who chose to communicate openly with the player base, etc. The reason we see so much discussion on these topics is not just because they are potentially divisive amongst players, but also because they very clearly are the sort of thing that can only be “solved” by direct developer response. Maybe ANets responses will raise some ire or even cause players to leave the game (and forums) for good, but the lack of meaningful response is what is really fueling the arguments. ANet has to, in my opinion, come to the realization that offering no response or just platitudes like “we’re thinking about it, but haven’t decided yet” or “it’s being considered” or “we hear your concerns” are actually part of the problem.

So may I ask what has Arena Net learned from certain communication blunders like:

The final rest low drop rate mystery, and how the community felt after A-net “upped” the drop rate for it from the shadow behemoth. Or the Last Stand at Southsun infamous “it’s a dungeon and not an instance” fiasco. How about something that is even more relevant like the removal of forward/up path in TA in which to Colin’s credit did talk about in ambiguous way. The TA path removal could have been revealed at least 2 months ahead of time to say “we are planning to remove this path from TA and this is why.” A-net could have collected first impressions right there.

To the A-nets credit there has been things which have been fixed in game that no one ever talks about (unless it breaks again). We do appreciate the hard work that goes into the game. Especially when it works flawlessly with the rest of the game. However it was revealed that Guild Wars 2 was somewhat rushed (Zhaitan fight is a primary example of this), otherwise some of these elements would have already been in the game. Beyond anything I have notice some developers outstanding interaction with the community including Josh Foreman, and Robert Hrouda who used to formally work for A-net. You know why I like them? It’s because of their honesty and don’t try to hide facts with PR dribble. However people like Regina and Gaile are also superb at their job. They try to get things done even on a technical level whenever they can.

One thing that was unacceptable to me is telling A-net that certain developers should be fired for “X” reason(s). It happened to Robert when he worked with his dungeon team to clean up exploits. People demanded their be patch note that the exploit was fixed. Why? Is it because exploiters could do it before so it should be accepted as a working mechanic of GW2 dungeons? There are several dungeon (fractals included) which still have the “jump over the wall to get to the end” exploit and they have yet to be fixed.

I feel like I’ve read this exact post in another thread..

PR speak to me as I do not see evidence of any of this. In fact develop I have seen has been going in much of the opposite direction of what the community wants.

The forums are kind of like the game bland. Everything interesting gets edited or removed. I am not saying the game is bad because I find it worth playing most of the time. The bland comment makes sense though.

This whole thread and its lack of “red” posts says all I need to know.

I appreciate the post and your efforts, Chris, and having played since the first Beta weekend, I will say that at least for me, there have been vast improvements in the game and I can see that many of these improvements are actually based on player input.

I do not post much in the forums anymore, because, to be honest, the atmosphere of these forums is stifling. In fact, of all the things I would like to see improved it is just this—the overwhelming feeling that one must look over their shoulder continuously or face the wrath of the powers that be. The feeling that everything I do is being watched and monitored for wrongdoing—-or to control the way I do things—-so that every aspect of gameplay is under strict control by someone other than myself.

Much of the time I run into annoyinkitteniments (why that word was censored, I do not know, but strangely ironic and apropos that it was. for those wondering it was synonymous with “hindrance”. ) to smooth gameplay that are controls put in place to deter bad behavior, but that indiscriminately punish everyone for the sins of a few. The overuse of the “soul bound” and “account bound” items—which does nothing to encourage altruistic and kind behavior in the community and instead encourages an atmosphere of greed and selfishness. The annoying “red error message” if you are selling too fast at the BLT, so that your game slows to a crawl while you attempt to clean out your inventory. Not everyone is trying to cheat or game the system, yet everyone is treated like a cheat and scalawag.

There is also this feeling that the developers find the players to be beneath them—-peons—-that must be tolerated while they —-develop “their” game-—and I am not sure how true collaboration happens if there is not an equal partnership.

I would encourage Arenanet to require their employees to play the game. To go into the game NOT on the server they are used to, and NOT with their usual buddies, but choose a player at random, introduce themselves AS Arenanet employees, and tell them they would like to party with that person and play the game with them as they usually play, and get their ideas and thoughts. It would be an eye opener.

Give the players something free every month. Something FUN and not soulbound. Have a weekend of double dye drops, or exotic drops, or something just for the fun of it, without even considering for a moment the effect on the economy or that it might promote bad behavior. Imagine for a moment we are all great people and just play to have fun. Games should be fun.

Also give the players a way to truly make their mark in the world. Give us a graffiti marker with our name on it as a gift, a lot like the “Box of Fun”—-make a placeable that we can set out in world that would stay a short time and say: I was here. When someone strikes the killing blow on a world boss, let his personal flag fly in that spot til it respawns. I would encourage you all to make the player feel like heroes, and an truly integral part of the game. Something along these lines that says the History of this world is TRULY our history.

Again, I appreciate your thoughts and time, Chris. I hope you appreciate mine.

Not a post that’s filled with a lot of substance, to be honest. Enjoining the forums to exhibit less of a toxic behaviour understandable, but all that PR speak about trying to listen to your community and trying to build a unique world sounds really hollow. That’s just me, though.

You’re in your rights to delete the posts of disrespectful, insulting users and warn them. Mentioning that you’re going to enforce these kinds of rules more strictly would’ve given the OP message more substance.

I would suggest releasing up a roadmap of where you plan to go with the game, including – yes, including – where you are currently standing with things like like new gear tiers, level caps, requested feature X(dueling, mounts, et al.). It would save your player base from being needlessly disappointed because they waited for something you don’t plan to implement ever, or vice versa. Be honest about your plans, see what the player base thinks, adjust accordingly or not and explain why. That way people don’t feel betrayed and have enough time to make a decision about whether or not they want to keep playing. But I guess that kind of transparency’s out of the question.

Very enlightening post, thank you.

I don’t care if Rednames post more, because I don’t trust any of you. 50 posts with Zero Value is identical to 2 posts with Zero Value, except for the amount of page space wasted.

ASB.4295:

I would suggest releasing up a roadmap of where you plan to go with the game, including – yes, including – where you are currently standing with things like like new gear tiers, level caps, requested feature X(dueling, mounts, et al.). It would save your player base from being needlessly disappointed because they waited for something you don’t plan to implement ever, or vice versa. Be honest about your plans, see what the player base thinks, adjust accordingly or not and explain why. That way people don’t feel betrayed and have enough time to make a decision about whether or not they want to keep playing. But I guess that kind of transparency’s out of the question.

Adding a little bit to this.

Also if anything gets scrapped, don’t just do it. Give a small explanation of why it wouldn’t work or why it was discontinued, even if it’s brutally honest or something along the lines of “we really don’t have the resources to implement this”. There could be enough feedback on how to get it to work if there are devs reading these forums like you say for feedback instead of other powertrip reasons.

Lol I thought I read this somewhere.

http://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/What-A-Dev-Think-About-The-Official-Forums/2845309

The thread is gone now though.

http://www.mistleague.com/what-a-dev-think-about-the-official-forums/

Charak.9761:

You want feedback to fixing your game?

1.) Extrinsic rewards need to be provided away from RNG/Gold. Your skinner box is really poorly designed, to many players are smashing that button down and getting nothing out, while only a couple are getting 800g precursors on the first push. This is ultimately frustrating, there is no way to work towards any cosmetic item in a ‘fun’ matter that doesn’t involve champ train or TP flipping.

2.) Precursor crafting should be pushed to highest priority, not last item on the list

3.) Real Quality of life changes: Dual Specialization, LFG Tool takes you to dungeon (no porting to map), WvW map viewable before going inside, Glory tradable for PvE items, UI for Mini (separate from bank), Achievement Meta rewards placed in the achievement item panel (why are players left with the ever increasing amounts of backitems they may be to scared to use because they only got 1), and account-bound WvW rank and FOTM levels.

4.) Fotm rewards are lacking after a player receives their back-item and rings.

5.) Reward vs. Time vs. Skill Charts, this is really lop sided, why is farming champs or TP flipping more rewarding than say arah p4, or 8 orb Liadari, or even fotm (your ‘end-game’ dungeon).

6.) Heading back to GW lore, the LS has gone way off base and most people can’t seem to follow the story as to what is happening. I’m pretty sure a lot of us still don’t understand who Scarlet is and why she does what she does.

This!!!

Knote.2904:

Lol I thought I read this somewhere.

http://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/What-A-Dev-Think-About-The-Official-Forums/2845309

The thread is gone now though.

http://www.mistleague.com/what-a-dev-think-about-the-official-forums/

After this: Faith in ANet and everyone who works there: zero percent.

That’s a great post! I’m glad to see that you guys are willing to continue to try to communicate with the players, despite the negativity on the forums. It must be hard to do. I check these forums once a day and find maybe a topic per page worth reading… I can’t imagine looking through them all!

Edit: I guess if this is going to become the official “I want this and I’ll shut up and be happy” thread… all I want for christmas is personal housing, and maybe some dwarves and great axes.

Edit the 2nd: Oh yeah, and new zones to explore.

Knote.2904:

Lol I thought I read this somewhere.

http://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/What-A-Dev-Think-About-The-Official-Forums/2845309

The thread is gone now though.

http://www.mistleague.com/what-a-dev-think-about-the-official-forums/

Oh, wow. Copypasta content in game and out.

Does Anet really listen to the community tho? People mentioned that living story isnt working:
*Its to temporary
*The quality of the content is very low due pressure from rushed schedule on release
*Tha amount of content given isnt exactly enjoyable because every update is ‘’New achievement chores, go there, click F, rinse repeat’’
*The story is poorly written

I got in to gw2 with alot of hopes during headstart. But now I just ride along because nothing else interests me. The community wanted a expansion, they said no, they said living story would be equal to expansion, but so far every content given is being taken out so it dosent really equal to an expansion, expansion are usealy permanent and quality work. We were promised permanent content, all we got was teq and a new dungeon path in which they removed a diffrent path to implement it. They claim to listen to the community, but it dosent show yet. Still there is hope i guess 2014 is close, i really want to know what they have planned for us in the first half of 2014.

Tagus Eleuthera.7305:

I can’t imagine looking through them all!

And here you have your truth. If they looked through all the threads and post, this board would be filled with red post clarifying and removing doubts. But, as you can clearly see, that is not the case.

Toby.2357:

Does Anet really listen to the community tho? People mentioned that living story isnt working:
*Its to temporary
*The quality of the content is very low due pressure from rushed schedule on release
*Tha amount of content given isnt exactly enjoyable because every update is ‘’New achievement chores, go there, click F, rinse repeat’’
*The story is poorly written

I got in to gw2 with alot of hopes during headstart. But now I just ride along because nothing else interests me. The community wanted a expansion, they said no, they said living story would be equal to expansion, but so far every content given is being taken out so it dosent really equal to an expansion, expansion are usealy permanent and quality work. We were promised permanent content, all we got was teq and a new dungeon path in which they removed a diffrent path to implement it. They claim to listen to the community, but it dosent show yet. Still there is hope i guess 2014 is close, i really want to know what they have planned for us in the first half of 2014.

Are you saying Tequatl and the new dungeon path aren’t permanent. Are you saying they’re not good. The new dungeon path in particular is very good.

And they have ways to get unique items from that content you can’t get anywhere else…which is something people have been asking for.

They’re starting to listen, but making stuff takes a lot longer than asking for it.

There’s no denying the innovative spirit that drives you guys. What you’ve done overall is nothing short of an industry landmark.

The risks you took, the design decisions you made and the way you organised your process flow is remarkable given the money at stakes.

However I can’t help but cringe when I hear you guys talk about collaboration when it comes down to pvp.

You purposefully discarded gw1 players’ feedback because you wanted something new. As a result, you threw away both the good and the bad from one of the most acclaimed pvp game ever.

You also drove away the hardcore gw2 pvp fans because you failed to achieve the one thing the community wanted and needed to strive: team competition. If instead of focusing on 3-round tournaments, free and paid tournaments and all that esport nonsense, you worked on a team ladder from the start, you wouldn’t have to worry about bringing players back now…

Long story short, there’s hardly any wide scaled collaboration in pvp because there is no foundation for a pvp community: no incentive for teams to play competitively.

Toby.2357:

Does Anet really listen to the community tho?

I believe they do, to a degree. They listen to metrics more than they do the actual, voiced concerns here on the forums, though. And I personally feel like they view us as mushrooms (fans of The Departed will get it).