(edited by Shlamorel.8714)
1/28 Dungeon update: Your thoughts?
Not really. People who preferred throwing themselves at the boss without actually learning the mechanics will have a hard time.
Throwing ourselves? Did you read my post?
We read the wiki, watched playthroughs on youtube, looked on the forum to LEARN the mechanic before trying the boss. We spend two hours and a half trying without succeeding in any way. Getting instantly downed with AOE everywhere, even when trying to stick together or even dodging…. It’s dis-gus-ting, unfun and against any kind of good design for fun experience.
Even when we ‘learn’ the so-called mechanics, most of the dungeons are broken or inconsistent in many ways. Some of them got better, but some got worse. It was all about trying to please everybody, which this patch fails now. This game was said to be for casual. I don’t call learning everything by heart and teaming with specific professions a casual play style.
Like I said, it’s forcing on us your perspective instead of just allowing us to enjoy the moment and learning by ourselves. I didn’t learn any lessons from Subject Alpha fight 2. I didn’t. All it told me is that it sucked, was not fun and it was disgusting, wasting two hours of my time.
I’ve been killed thousand of times in video games in my life, each time I learned from it and I was able to identify what went wrong, what mistakes I did and the punishment wasn’t too hard. It was still fun. We did Sorrow Embrace path 2 before the patch. We had a hard time with the boss, but we learned from it, found strategies, tried different things. But this one (Subject Alpha), we don’t even have the chance for this. I’ve yet to try Arah exp or any other dungeons.
Right now, the dungeons kill any kind of motivation. With repair bills, big Aoe Zergs, lags sometimes, random party members or even with guildmates, it’s not fun (which was what Guild Wars 2 was supposed to be). Fractals should have been more difficult, not ‘normal’ dungeons.
If you wanted pure and harsh challenge, you could either run dungeons naked, solo it or whatever all by yourself. You could also choose to not use Waypoints at all. Everybody had a choice. Now we don’t. Only you are pleased. Once again the hardcore MMO players are changing Guild Wars 2 in a way we don’t like. First the ascended (though now with laurels it’s a little bit better), the big grinds for infusion/legendaries/ascended, and now the dungeons. Good job….
(edited by NickChabby.8907)
Honestly, I can’t take that kind of change anymore. It feels like ArenaNet is throwing casual gaming in the trash. Dungeons were already hard for casual gamers, now it’s nearly impossible to complete them without being epic players. Now we’re a lot of people who enter dungeons, get killed and wait….wait….and wait again for everybody to die. Then we have to start all over again and the pain restarts…
I dunno, my guild ran three dungeons last night, HOTW path 1, TA up path, and took three new members through CM Story. Personally I thought it was much easier than before, all of the bosses/silver mobs seemed to do less damage, and died faster than before. We only had 2-3 deaths out of all three runs (the new people in CM) and it didn’t seem to effect the group much, we just finished the boss and rezzed the dead players after the fight. I was initially worried that the patch might make dungeons too difficult for the average player, but it seems to me (so far at least) that they may be a bit too easy now.
Twillight Arbor was changed to fit this new situation, we did it also yesterday and had no trouble at all.
But today we ran Crucible of Eternity, and it was just impossible. It was already hard/challenging before, and it was ok, but now it’s not even fun or anything, just frustrating.
I understand fixing the vulnerability glitch that was a game exploit but I don’t understand why you have to change the waypoint system.
1. The current GW2 resurrection skills are so and are difficult to get an individual up fast enough.
2. Resurrecting an individual within close quarter combat almost guarantees your death.
3. Guild Wars 2 has a lack of range resurrection skills.
4. Guild Wars 2 also has a lack of resurrection skills back in resin individual from a completely dead state.
5. Bosses can kill individuals way too fast.
I’m starting to see individuals seeking level 80 only groups for a level 35 dungeon and I have experienced a completely level 80 group fail in a level 35 dungeon. I believe that this patch is a mistake and is going to cause longtime players as myself to shy away from dungeons or completely abandoned the game. If something doesn’t change I don’t see myself doing any dungeons anytime soon especially with a pickup group. It’s unfortunate but Arena net and a guild or staff worries too much about the individuals who farm the dungeons and does not really consider the average player.
Honestly, I can’t take that kind of change anymore. It feels like ArenaNet is throwing casual gaming in the trash. Dungeons were already hard for casual gamers, now it’s nearly impossible to complete them without being epic players. Now we’re a lot of people who enter dungeons, get killed and wait….wait….and wait again for everybody to die. Then we have to start all over again and the pain restarts…
Especially considering it takes -forever- to resurrect someone. Either you fail the boss or you success, there is no in-between.
Not really. People who preferred throwing themselves at the boss without actually learning the mechanics will have a hard time.
Im going to go ahead and pretend like you didn’t think this comment through before you posted it.
Are you actually going to imply, That you youtube every single dungeon before you run it and futhermore expect every other player to do so as well?
You have never run into a dungeon blind?
Be realistic for a second please and make 1 valid attept to put the internet ego protection aura down..
NO ONE DOES THAT.
Any and every new player that rolls through a dungeon for the first time is going to struggle at least at first to fully understand and SEE how the bos mechanics work.
Unless of coarse you are in a guild like mine that will take a trial and error group through to figure stuff out and you roll with us after the fact and win simply because We gave you incredible instructions via TS3, that is to say that you have the ability to follow extremely simplistic instruction.
Even then I see players drop time and time again. Because no matter how many videos you watch.. no matter the instructions or how well they are relayed.
everyone learns in his/her own way/time. Its up to each player to do what he/she needs to do in order to fine tune themselves to each situational dungeon mechanic vs his/her player class/spec.
For example the first boss in AC exp.. Spider queen.
Ever see a each person rebuild their utility bar for condition removale? I bet not.
Do they also use at least 2 stun breakers to prevent themselves from being stuck in the webbing and thus held in the red aoe circles? Again I bet not.
A prime example of things that just don’t happen as often as they should in Gw2.
unless of coarse you run with a good group, play a full time support class/spec, belong to a good guild that makes you play right.
Pugs/casual players generally Don’t do these things. Casual/pugs happen to be the common folk in Gw2.
I’m tired of having the Mossman going into his stealth, 1 hitting a player as soon as he is out of stealth with no reliable way to know who he’s going to target, no reliable way to dodge.
Haven’t tried regular dungeons, just fractals.
Crucible of Eternity is now impossible, pathetic update ….. path 1, if someone die, it’s over.
Subject Alpha + the new system = impossible.
Awesome Arena net, Thank you for ruining our pleasure
[TSS] Tequatl Slayer Squad
#TeamAmber
#TeamAmber
The issue I see here is we have two separate factions: the elitist “I SOLO THIS” players and the … Let’s call them the casual players.
With the pre-patch mechanic, both parties were pleased: elitist could run their paths naked with uncommon weapons if they wanted, or do level 20+ fractals… And the casual players had their already hard enough dungeon difficulty.
With this update, only one faction is pleased: the elitist. In other words, they’re pushing down our throats/Force on us their perspective by saying “DEAL WITH IT, it’s fine for us!!!”, no, just no, that’s not a good attitude.
The casual players have a harder time, it’s almost impossible for them, it discourage and it sucks. Most of the dungeon runs are made of random people too, which make things harder.It’s easy to say “JUST DON’T DIE AND LEARN!!!1”, but it’s even easier to think about us. We got used to a 3 months old mechanic and now we’re forced to change all our tactics. And yes, even when we look at walkthroughs, wikis, youtube videos, we’re still spending hours (without succeeding) on subject Alpha. It discourage. The game was said to be fun, it’s not for many players at the moment since the dungeons are the only things to do once we hit 80.
Guild Wars 2 was supposed to please almost everyone, both elitist and casual players. With this new difficulty, they only pleased one part. Give us a difficulty setting at the beginning like the fractals and we’ll be pleased. But don’t punish us for trying to spend time in dungeons and earn tokens when we don’t have the same amount of time to give to the game as other players.
Thank you.
This is just so true and well explained. I’m pretty sure all casual players feel the same. It’s not that we’re not good enough, it’s that we don’t have time enough to beat everything like the hardcore gamers, (who seem to be the main interest of ArenaNet these days by the way)…
We DO understand the mechanics, we DO prepare before enterring a dungeon, we DO work as teams, why would you make it more difficult, it was already challenging for casual (actually normal) players.
I saw that the change is arriving because “It’s more like what arenanet wanted the dungeons to be like”, but… Seriously.
Crucible of Eternity is now impossible, pathetic update ….. path 1, if someone die, it’s over.
Subject Alpha + the new system = impossible.
Awesome Arena net, Thank you for ruining our pleasure
Yes, yes. We share your pain, it really is impossible, even after trying for hours we still didn’t make it.
(edited by Nnene.7231)
Honestly, I can’t take that kind of change anymore. It feels like ArenaNet is throwing casual gaming in the trash. Dungeons were already hard for casual gamers, now it’s nearly impossible to complete them without being epic players……
That is EXACTLY what dungeons were SUPPOSED to be about. Cant find the post from the Dev about it, but they were never intended for casuals
Crucible of Eternity is now impossible, pathetic update ….. path 1, if someone die, it’s over.
Subject Alpha + the new system = impossible.
Awesome Arena net, Thank you for ruining our pleasure
Didn’t they only decreased Alpha’s hitpoints? What else did they do to make it impossible?
Getting used to being spoiled doesnt make you disciplined. If you claim to know mechanics, you wouldnt be dying. Knowing a mechanic and executing it properly go hand and hand.
Crucible of Eternity is now impossible, pathetic update ….. path 1, if someone die, it’s over.
Subject Alpha + the new system = impossible.
Awesome Arena net, Thank you for ruining our pleasure
Didn’t they only decreased Alpha’s hitpoints? What else did they do to make it impossible?
Well, the waypoints.
Getting used to being spoiled doesnt make you disciplined. If you claim to know mechanics, you wouldnt be dying. Knowing a mechanic and executing it properly go hand and hand.
Knowing and understanding the mechanics is not beeing a pro either. We all have to fail at times to get better, but making the whole team fail just doesn’t help.
Well, the waypoints.
How do waypoints help to kill him? They deal damage?
Honestly, I can’t take that kind of change anymore. It feels like ArenaNet is throwing casual gaming in the trash. Dungeons were already hard for casual gamers, now it’s nearly impossible to complete them without being epic players……
That is EXACTLY what dungeons were SUPPOSED to be about. Cant find the post from the Dev about it, but they were never intended for casuals
I do recall them saying they wanted the dungeon to be a challenging experience. But now it’s more punishing than challenging. It’s too much, the challenge just isn’t there.
I’ve yet to try AC post-patch, but I really doubt any level 35 new players will find the dungeon challenging… More disgusting I would say. There is no opportunity to learn, just to be perfect or to die.
I thought Fractals were supposed to be the most challenging dungeons. I’ve found them easier than Crucible lol. I don’t imagine Arah path 4 now.
The issue I see here is we have two separate factions: the elitist “I SOLO THIS” players and the … Let’s call them the casual players.
With the pre-patch mechanic, both parties were pleased: elitist could run their paths naked with uncommon weapons if they wanted, or do level 20+ fractals… And the casual players had their already hard enough dungeon difficulty.
With this update, only one faction is pleased: the elitist. In other words, they’re pushing down our throats/Force on us their perspective by saying “DEAL WITH IT, it’s fine for us!!!”, no, just no, that’s not a good attitude.
The casual players have a harder time, it’s almost impossible for them, it discourage and it sucks. Most of the dungeon runs are made of random people too, which make things harder.It’s easy to say “JUST DON’T DIE AND LEARN!!!1”, but it’s even easier to think about us. We got used to a 3 months old mechanic and now we’re forced to change all our tactics. And yes, even when we look at walkthroughs, wikis, youtube videos, we’re still spending hours (without succeeding) on subject Alpha. It discourage. The game was said to be fun, it’s not for many players at the moment since the dungeons are the only things to do once we hit 80.
Guild Wars 2 was supposed to please almost everyone, both elitist and casual players. With this new difficulty, they only pleased one part. Give us a difficulty setting at the beginning like the fractals and we’ll be pleased. But don’t punish us for trying to spend time in dungeons and earn tokens when we don’t have the same amount of time to give to the game as other players.
Thank you.
I completely agree with NickChabby.8907 and to add to it with all of the changes that arena net has made the pool the individuals to do dungeons is dwindling very rapidly. You see servers that had a very high population reduced to seeing individual sporadically and servers that were full numbers reduced. Most individuals run dungeons to earn enough tokens to get exotic armor without having to spend three months if not more farming gold to buy it out of the trading post or an armor vendor. The game was fun to a certain degree and I don’t understand the big change because arena net already limited individuals who farm dungeons by scaling the reward if a dungeon was done repeatedly without a rest period. It made no sense to change the way point mechanic without changing the resurrection system and changing some of the bosses because some of them are way too strong. I’m probably wasting my time posting this because arena net probably isn’t a change anything which means a lot of individuals are probably not going to continue playing this game. I’m going to start downloading Star Wars.
Crucible of Eternity is now impossible, pathetic update ….. path 1, if someone die, it’s over.
Subject Alpha + the new system = impossible.
Awesome Arena net, Thank you for ruining our pleasure
Didn’t they only decreased Alpha’s hitpoints? What else did they do to make it impossible?
Well, the waypoints.
Getting used to being spoiled doesnt make you disciplined. If you claim to know mechanics, you wouldnt be dying. Knowing a mechanic and executing it properly go hand and hand.
Knowing and understanding the mechanics is not beeing a pro either. We all have to fail at times to get better, but making the whole team fail just doesn’t help.
You don’t get patted on the back for failing, you get rewarded for learning from failures. You learn by not dying.
You don’t get patted on the back for failing, you get rewarded for learning from failures. You learn by not dying.
It’s not this. You fail to see the point completely. I’m sure we all agree on “we learn from our mistakes”. The problem is how it is implemented.
We’re humans, we’re players, it’s a game, there has to be room for mistakes without being too punishing. We need to have the chance to regain control of the situation in order to develop tactics, strategies and giving us the motivation to pursue.
At the moment, certain bosses prevent us from this. They bind our hands together and expect us to be able to stay alive.
Let’s compare two boss fights. Some might find my examples ridiculous, but you’ll see what I mean.
Sorrow Embrace, path 2, the boss. Four (or five?) dredge mining suit. At first, we tried to aggro one: they all came, killing 3/4 of our party members. It was a big room, so we were open to mistake, to investigation, to learn something. Eventually, by dying (and spending a big hour on this), we found out by ourselves the best way was to throw ourselves on them and just fight them.
Then we have Crucible, Path 2, Subject Alpha. Aoe everywhere, little to no chance at all to dodge, instant death almost everytime, small room, zerg, lags. There is no way to learn from this, it’s either “BE PERFECT or BE PUNISHED”, no in-between.
The equivalent would be “Answer ALL the questions in a school test correctly or you fail”. But it doesn’t work like that no? We’re allowed to have one or two questions answered incorrectly, if not more. We can also do mistakes without preventing our progress at all in our studies, allowing us learn something. Why isn’t it the same with a game? It’s almost asking for every players to write an essay without any grammar mistake at all. How many of you would succeed? Would you enjoy seeing the grammar freak telling you “JUST LEARN TO WRITE LOL”, no, not at all.
We looked on Internet, wikis, we studied his attacks, we looked at videos. I also already fought him (Subject AlphA) before the patch (though there were lots of respawns). But so far, I fail to see what went wrong, I just see this as a big mess and therefore, my experience wasn’t better, I didn’t learn anything at all. So it’s not a good mechanic, for this boss at least.
I encourage teamwork, but the fact that :
- the boss heals completely at every wipe
- Have no room to mistakes at all
- It takes forever to resurrect someone, let alone having a skill for this, and that’s if you don’t put anyone in danger by doing so (and forget that, if someone dies in Subject Alpha 2 it’s the apocalypse)
- There is no proper healing class
It just ruins the whole idea behind this change. We need more flexibility, allow us to lose one or two party members without ruining the whole thing.
(edited by NickChabby.8907)
Well, the waypoints.
How do waypoints help to kill him? They deal damage?
Of course not. They let you come back to the fight when you’re dead, so your team doesn’t have to die before you can respawn there. And so the boss doesn’t heal itself.
But that was before.
You don’t get patted on the back for failing, you get rewarded for learning from failures. You learn by not dying.
You know as much as me that players won’t think that way and instantly kick players who die, not because they’re not good, but because no one will let them a single chance to improve. It’s a GAME for god’s sake, not an exam. We’re supposed to have fun, not to be perfect everytime.
(edited by Nnene.7231)
I would be okay with this if Anet sped up the act of bringing dead (not defeated) players back. Reviving in combat is painfully slow, especially if you’re dealing with a heavy with 26,000 health.
That being said, I don’t think this affects the usual “farming” paths of AC 1-3 and CoF 1-2. I don’t think I’ve ever died more than once on any of those paths (per run), and by the time I revive and run back the event is over anyway. I also run TA for onyx cores/lodestones, but given the lack of waypoints in that map and the stupid amount of trash skipped, I generally try to res people anyway (I will raise a kittenstorm if they nerf spy kits).
Arah is the one I’m concerned about. Lupi generally takes the most time, and I will admit that sometimes our run is saved with one person kiting Lupi until the rest of us run back. For the time being, I don’t think I will take new people on my farming runs.
Yams One/Two/Three/Four/Five/Six
SBI
SBI
Arah is the one I’m concerned about. Lupi generally takes the most time, and I will admit that sometimes our run is saved with one person kiting Lupi until the rest of us run back. For the time being, I don’t think I will take new people on my farming runs.
This mentality is unfortunately understandable… But that just proves they added another nail in the coffin.
Of course not. They let you come back to the fight when you’re dead, so your team doesn’t have to die before you can respawn there. And so the boss doesn’t heal itself.
But that was before.
And how that makes bosses harder than Green Moa?
Arah is the one I’m concerned about. Lupi generally takes the most time, and I will admit that sometimes our run is saved with one person kiting Lupi until the rest of us run back. For the time being, I don’t think I will take new people on my farming runs.
If you had to resort to that “tactic”, I wouldn’t call your adventures “farming runs”.
Honestly, I can’t take that kind of change anymore. It feels like ArenaNet is throwing casual gaming in the trash. Dungeons were already hard for casual gamers, now it’s nearly impossible to complete them without being epic players……
That is EXACTLY what dungeons were SUPPOSED to be about. Cant find the post from the Dev about it, but they were never intended for casuals
I do recall them saying they wanted the dungeon to be a challenging experience. But now it’s more punishing than challenging. It’s too much, the challenge just isn’t there.
I’ve yet to try AC post-patch, but I really doubt any level 35 new players will find the dungeon challenging… More disgusting I would say. There is no opportunity to learn, just to be perfect or to die.
I thought Fractals were supposed to be the most challenging dungeons. I’ve found them easier than Crucible lol. I don’t imagine Arah path 4 now.
How is it more punishing other than a bit of silver? Care to explain further what you mean by punishing?
Is the death the punishment for failure? Is time the punishment for failure? Or would you like some other form of punishment? (You need some-sort of punishment for failure, at minimum. No punishment means failure becomes NULL in this equation. Failure becomes pointless)
If the encounter / boss was easy enough that a new player never failed, is he learning? Or does he even need to learn it if there is no failure?
If there is no failure, where is the challenge? You cant have something challenging without some form of failure. These are mutually inclusive.
You are essentially asking for challenge without failure. But thats not possible, there is no such equation that works like that in simple logic. Now you can adjust the levels of failure, challenge, and reward, but you CANT remove any of the 3 variables.
Now the challenge is high in AC EM. Perhaps the rewards are low, and the failures are low (in my opinion), but they are there.
Learning: Is attempting the challenge, which only has 2 outcomes: Fail or Success, and through trial and error, or adjusting your play, you will eventually find the style of play (skills, movement, traits, etc..) that equals more success than failure in the challenge. Given X amount of the same challenge, you get Y amount of successes over Z amount of failures
Your quote about being ..perfect or die.. requires that you only get (X amount = 1) in the above equation. But this game lets you do (X amount = Infinite, limited by how many you want to do), so your assertion about ..no opportunity to learn.. is logically incorrect (See Learning, above)
Instead, your post has logical fallacies all over the place. You say there is no challenge in the same sentence stating there is too high of a punishment (You cant have challenge = 0 while punishment = High). Then you make further incorrect logical statements of having to be perfect at the same time saying that there is no possibility to learn (Game only allowing 1 attempt, and no more ever afterwards).
It would have been easier to state an opinion of “I do not like the ratio of success to the challenge”.
So my last question: What ratio of success / challenge would you like? Be more confortable with? (Remember, you cant have the ratio be 100% or 0%, has to fall within those limits)
But………..but, they said that the fact that you won’t be able to WP rez while in combat is only the first part of everything. They also said that they’ll chance some things inside dungeons…they already shrank Alpha’s HP.. Why don’t you people try and run the dungeons how they are right now for a while, and you’ll see that in the next patch, they’ll nerf (or balance, if you want to put it that way) stuff in dungeons.
EDIT:
I am not an elitist, honest, I too like you guys screw up a dodge or two from time to time, and I’m sure even the elitists use the WP in the dungeons from time to time. The fact is, they found a challenge and they liked it, while the others found a challenge and stopped trying.
What I see here are people similar to those that want to restart the Swamp fractal after just 2 tries.
Honestly out of the people that complained, how many of you actually tried to run some dungeons after the patch? I’m not talking about 1 or 2 tries… I’m talking about really trying.
I for one still have many dungeons to try out after the patch, and I will because I wanna see how things are.
And I’m excited for when the silver trash mobs will get the nerf hammer.
EDIT:
There currently is a thread that gives quite a bit of info about how to resurrect someone properly, and also has some boss mechanics. USE IT
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Resurrection-Guide
(edited by Fasalina.6571)
But………..but, they said that the fact that you won’t be able to WP rez while in combat is only the first part of everything. They also said that they’ll chance some things inside dungeons…they already shrank Alpha’s HP.. Why don’t you people try and run the dungeons how they are right now for a while, and you’ll see that in the next patch, they’ll nerf (or balance, if you want to put it that way) stuff in dungeons.
I am not an elitist, honest, I too like you guys screw up a dodge or two from time to time, and I’m sure even the elitists use the WP in the dungeons from time to time. The fact is, they found a challenge and they liked it, while the others found a challenge and stopped trying.
What I see here are people similar to those that want to restart the Swamp fractal after just 2 tries.Honestly out of the people that complained, how many of you actually tried to run some dungeons after the patch? I’m not talking about 1 or 2 tries… I’m talking about really trying.
I for one still have many dungeons to try out after the patch, and I will because I wanna see how things are.
And I’m excited for when the silver trash mobs will get the nerf hammer.
Try Crucible of Eternity.
NickChabby and many more of us who are complaing DID TRY several dungeons before complaining.
How is it more punishing other than a bit of silver? Care to explain further what you mean by punishing?
You become completely pointless if you die. You can’t even do like in GW1 and move the camera freely around your comrades to watch their back. You’re just there, watching the ground and wasting anyone’s time, including their life if they try to rez you.
At least with the older mechanic, if someone died he could run back and help. Now they’re just… There… Waiting. It’s not that bad when the dungeon is ran in guildmates, they have the patience for this. But the chance a complete random party leader/member has this said patience is considerably lower. .
You are essentially asking for challenge without failure.
No, not at all. I stopped reading there.
I’m not asking for challenge without failure. I’m asking for a challenge with rooms to mistakes.
I used it quite often in my last posts, I’ll use it again. When you do a school test or when you write an essay, you don’t instantly fail after one or two mistakes. You lose points, but that doesn’t ruin your time/effort completely. You fail certain questions/parts, but when you receive your results, you can see what you did wrong without preventing you to move forward.
But with certain fights, one or two mistakes can make you waste 10 minutes to one hour of fighting and they’re so messy we’re unable to tell what went wrong except if we look on the Wiki/forums. So much for learning by ourselves. It’s a game, not a school test.
The Ice Elemental/Dredge suit in the Dredge Fractal. I died tons of time at it before getting it. Never really complained (other than it is pointlessly long for a simple fight). The final bosses, Sorrow Embrace path 2, it took my team several attempts (and death) to find a good strategy to kill them. Yet again it was a challenge with failure BUT also with room for mistakes without wasting anyone’s time. If someone died we could actually resurrect him without stopping the fight.
But Subject Alpha, like other bosses in the game, ask so much for precise timing, precise combination of skills/tactics/team it’s not “play your still anymore” and one mistake or two can wipe your entire party, extending the amount of time spent artificially.
In more detail:
A boss with AOE that hits you hard
+In a room with little to no possibility to resurrect your friends
+In a game where it takes forever to resurrect someone
+ With no possibility to help if you die
= Unfun, not challenging, just annoying.
What would be good
A boss with AOE that hits you hard
+ In a larger room to actually allow your teammates to resurrect you while the fight continue
+ Allow you to move your camera to one of your teammates àla Guild Wars 1 to make your death less boring and more profiting.
+ Maybe adding a proper skill or two that resurrect players, like in Guild Wars 1, with long recharge
= More challenging, yet open to failure/mistakes.
(edited by NickChabby.8907)
Crucible of Eternity is now impossible, pathetic update ….. path 1, if someone die, it’s over.
Subject Alpha + the new system = impossible.
Awesome Arena net, Thank you for ruining our pleasure
I just did CoE path 1 and 2, through out the whole 6 Alpha fights no one died, Alpha is TOO easy. Yes that is right, Alpha is TOO kitten EASY. The shouldn’t have decreased his health, he dies way too fast.
But………..but, they said that the fact that you won’t be able to WP rez while in combat is only the first part of everything. They also said that they’ll chance some things inside dungeons…they already shrank Alpha’s HP.. Why don’t you people try and run the dungeons how they are right now for a while, and you’ll see that in the next patch, they’ll nerf (or balance, if you want to put it that way) stuff in dungeons.
I am not an elitist, honest, I too like you guys screw up a dodge or two from time to time, and I’m sure even the elitists use the WP in the dungeons from time to time. The fact is, they found a challenge and they liked it, while the others found a challenge and stopped trying.
What I see here are people similar to those that want to restart the Swamp fractal after just 2 tries.Honestly out of the people that complained, how many of you actually tried to run some dungeons after the patch? I’m not talking about 1 or 2 tries… I’m talking about really trying.
I for one still have many dungeons to try out after the patch, and I will because I wanna see how things are.
And I’m excited for when the silver trash mobs will get the nerf hammer.Try Crucible of Eternity.
NickChabby and many more of us who are complaing DID TRY several dungeons before complaining.
I did try it, all 3 paths, and I think Alpha is even easier now with his hp nerf.
But it’s also true that I have a complete armor set and pistols from that dungeon, because I loved/love it so much.
Did your party know how to deal with him? If not you could have thought them.
-ALL go melee and hug the boss
-on path 2 and 3 count 1 2 and dodge when the circles of doom appear.
-kill the crystals immediately.
-repeat.
If someone goes down, all stop attacking and ress.
EDIT: I have to admit thought that killing the destroyer was a bit of a pain because 2 people kept falling in the lava, but that’s hardly a problem since that boss doesn’t reset, and you have to get out of combat at some point to man the lasers.
(edited by Fasalina.6571)
But………..but, they said that the fact that you won’t be able to WP rez while in combat is only the first part of everything. They also said that they’ll chance some things inside dungeons…they already shrank Alpha’s HP.. Why don’t you people try and run the dungeons how they are right now for a while, and you’ll see that in the next patch, they’ll nerf (or balance, if you want to put it that way) stuff in dungeons.
I am not an elitist, honest, I too like you guys screw up a dodge or two from time to time, and I’m sure even the elitists use the WP in the dungeons from time to time. The fact is, they found a challenge and they liked it, while the others found a challenge and stopped trying.
What I see here are people similar to those that want to restart the Swamp fractal after just 2 tries.Honestly out of the people that complained, how many of you actually tried to run some dungeons after the patch? I’m not talking about 1 or 2 tries… I’m talking about really trying.
I for one still have many dungeons to try out after the patch, and I will because I wanna see how things are.
And I’m excited for when the silver trash mobs will get the nerf hammer.Try Crucible of Eternity.
NickChabby and many more of us who are complaing DID TRY several dungeons before complaining.
I did try it, all 3 paths, and I think Alpha is even easier now with his hp nerf.
But it’s also true that I have a complete armor set and pistols from that dungeon, because I loved/love it so much.Did your party know how to deal with him? If not you could have thought them.
-ALL go melee and hug the boss
-on path 2 and 3 count 1 2 and dodge when the circles of doom appear.
-kill the crystals immediately.
-repeat.If someone goes down, all stop attacking and ress.
Yes we knew all that, thanks to the videos made for the dungeons :P ! But yet it wasn’t enough haha… And no we don’t usually suck in dungeons, we run TA without even dying once. That’s why it’s frustrating hehe ^^’
Just keep trying! When I first ran CoE, I usually spent 1 gold on repair for about a week before I finally learned how to dodge properly/switched to melee.
Just keep trying! When I first ran CoE, I usually spent 1 gold on repair for about a week before I finally learned how to dodge properly/switched to melee.
Yeah, but at least back then it was possible to waypoint and come back in the fight so the boss didn’t heal completely :’) !!
But of course you’re right and keep trying is the thing to do, no one is perfect from the beggining.
Honestly, I can’t take that kind of change anymore. It feels like ArenaNet is throwing casual gaming in the trash. Dungeons were already hard for casual gamers, now it’s nearly impossible to complete them without being epic players. Now we’re a lot of people who enter dungeons, get killed and wait….wait….and wait again for everybody to die. Then we have to start all over again and the pain restarts…
Especially considering it takes -forever- to resurrect someone. Either you fail the boss or you success, there is no in-between.
Ran Arah last night, had a party member die during Lupicus (took 3 bubbles in a row). Resed him from dead and finished the fight. We run glass cannons for our explorable runs. It’s a helluva lot easier to rez when you know you /can/.
Again, explorable dungeon paths are part of Anet’s intended “end game content”. If you want to do them, put in the time to learn them. There was a time when even CoF was a challenge.
Stace (Lv 80 human quickness portal bot) | Sarcasmic (Lv 80 elixir-drunk norn pyro)
Saladtha (Lv 80 salad sidekick to bears) | Dunelle (Lv 80 eviscerating muppet)
Karmell (Lv 80 human might dispenser) | Vast says hi~.
Saladtha (Lv 80 salad sidekick to bears) | Dunelle (Lv 80 eviscerating muppet)
Karmell (Lv 80 human might dispenser) | Vast says hi~.
You don’t get patted on the back for failing, you get rewarded for learning from failures. You learn by not dying.
It’s not this. You fail to see the point completely. I’m sure we all agree on “we learn from our mistakes”. The problem is how it is implemented.
We’re humans, we’re players, it’s a game, there has to be room for mistakes without being too punishing. We need to have the chance to regain control of the situation in order to develop tactics, strategies and giving us the motivation to pursue.At the moment, certain bosses prevent us from this. They bind our hands together and expect us to be able to stay alive.
Let’s compare two boss fights. Some might find my examples ridiculous, but you’ll see what I mean.
Sorrow Embrace, path 2, the boss. Four (or five?) dredge mining suit. At first, we tried to aggro one: they all came, killing 3/4 of our party members. It was a big room, so we were open to mistake, to investigation, to learn something. Eventually, by dying (and spending a big hour on this), we found out by ourselves the best way was to throw ourselves on them and just fight them.
Then we have Crucible, Path 2, Subject Alpha. Aoe everywhere, little to no chance at all to dodge, instant death almost everytime, small room, zerg, lags. There is no way to learn from this, it’s either “BE PERFECT or BE PUNISHED”, no in-between.The equivalent would be “Answer ALL the questions in a school test correctly or you fail”. But it doesn’t work like that no? We’re allowed to have one or two questions answered incorrectly, if not more. We can also do mistakes without preventing our progress at all in our studies, allowing us learn something. Why isn’t it the same with a game? It’s almost asking for every players to write an essay without any grammar mistake at all. How many of you would succeed? Would you enjoy seeing the grammar freak telling you “JUST LEARN TO WRITE LOL”, no, not at all.
We looked on Internet, wikis, we studied his attacks, we looked at videos. I also already fought him (Subject AlphA) before the patch (though there were lots of respawns). But so far, I fail to see what went wrong, I just see this as a big mess and therefore, my experience wasn’t better, I didn’t learn anything at all. So it’s not a good mechanic, for this boss at least.
I encourage teamwork, but the fact that :
- the boss heals completely at every wipe
- Have no room to mistakes at all
- It takes forever to resurrect someone, let alone having a skill for this, and that’s if you don’t put anyone in danger by doing so (and forget that, if someone dies in Subject Alpha 2 it’s the apocalypse)
- There is no proper healing classIt just ruins the whole idea behind this change. We need more flexibility, allow us to lose one or two party members without ruining the whole thing.
You are given a task to complete and the requirements needed to succeed. Whats needed to succeed is kill the boss before it kills your party. How you achieve this w/o exploiting is up to your party.
You’re given an obstacle to overcome if you want the reward. If you cannot overcome it, you do not deserve it. You keep trying, getting better, until you are deserving of the reward. To deserve it is to pass. You do not complain to your teacher that the test is too hard for you to pass cause you want a good grade. You study, prepare and come back smarter, better to tackle the obstacle.
The requirement to pass is not the same everywhere in the world. The people that can accomplish will keep doing so cause they are capable. The ones who can’t are upset because they feel they should be able to get by and be just as capable by making more mistakes.
I get the feeling this might encourage more balanced dungeon builds. I think we might see more people building with escapes and useful utility skills, instead of the nearly always pure glass cannon builds.
Probably not true for the veteran dungeoneers in gw2, but definately a possibility for those less experienced.
You are given a task to complete and the requirements needed to succeed. Whats needed to succeed is kill the boss before it kills your party. How you achieve this w/o exploiting is up to your party.
You’re given an obstacle to overcome if you want the reward. If you cannot overcome it, you do not deserve it. You keep trying, getting better, until you are deserving of the reward. To deserve it is to pass. You do not complain to your teacher that the test is too hard for you to pass cause you want a good grade. You study, prepare and come back smarter, better to tackle the obstacle.
The requirement to pass is not the same everywhere in the world. The people that can accomplish will keep doing so cause they are capable. The ones who can’t are upset because they feel they should be able to get by and be just as capable by making more mistakes.
This is going in circle. I’ve seen tests in my school life being reviewed because they weren’t adapted to what we learned in class, or because they were too extreme or simply not perfect enough for the students.
It happens. Nothing is perfect. And I’ll say it again: I’ve yet to see a test you fail completely because of one or two mistakes, which is maybe the amount needed for me to be killed by S.Alpha even though I’m full toughness in exotic. Bad luck I guess? It could be that yes.
I find it pretty primitive and narrow minded to think “You do it or you don’t deserve it”. There are nuances to this. Many Guild Wars 2’s game mechanics are broken and need to be reviewed. It will always be the case, no game is perfect. When they launched the game, there were so many broken events/skill points it was ridiculous. With your mentality, even though some players managed to get a certain skill point, the one who couldn’t because of a bug/balance/other issues doesn’t deserve it?
I fail to see how it is a challenge worth being rewarded when there is the possibility it can be broken, like lots of other elements in the game.
In other words, in your equation “Challenge: you win = reward, you lose = too bad”, you miss the “not perfect game, might be broken” data, which can change everything.
The fight with Subject Alpha might need to be reviewed again, since nothing is perfect. Like there is the possibility it doesn’t, I don’t deny it.
Mad King Clock Tower could be completed yes. I did it. But we could also be warped back to the beginning for no reason, have camera issues and be a big incomprehensible mess. Overall, the puzzle could have been improved into a more satisfying and fun experience, which is my point. The S.Alpha fight can be improved, and just sticking to the whole “Some did it, deal with it” will just lead the game nowhere. There will always be at least one person to complete something even though it has flaws. With this mentality, we wouldn’t have gotten an improved Wintersday jumping puzzle: they learned from their mistakes.
(edited by NickChabby.8907)
…I’m not asking for challenge without failure. I’m asking for a challenge with rooms to mistakes.
I used it quite often in my last posts, I’ll use it again. When you do a school test or when you write an essay, you don’t instantly fail after one or two mistakes. You lose points, but that doesn’t ruin your time/effort completely. You fail certain questions/parts, but when you receive your results, you can see what you did wrong without preventing you to move forward….
I understand what your saying here, but the analogy is incorrect. Your assuming that in regards to this ‘test’ or ‘essay’, no matter of how many mistakes I make (which I get to see and learn from), it does not prevent me from moving forward. Hmm….
So… If any amount of mistakes does not stop me from moving forward, I could turn in a blank essay, or just answer every question on the test randomly. Who cares what I get wrong, I still get to move forward! And I get my results as well, so I can learn what I did wrong, no need to put in the effort or time!
In fact, why learn from my results, it doesnt stop me from moving forward and reaping the rewards of completing the class anyway. Why waste the time learning the material =)
But schools dont work like this, and why your analogy is wrong…
In your ‘school test’ there is a finite point (or line) between SUCCESS or FAIL (in most schools, this is getting greater than 70% of the questions correct, or inversely, getting less than or equal to 30% questions wrong). In this case, your challenge = not getting greater than 30% questions wrong.
Lets assume in this school where you take this test, if you FAIL, you have to retake it (thus starting all over again), but if you SUCCEED, you get to continue in your class. Also, you can retake the test as many times as you want until you SUCCEED or give up.
So, if you get more than 30% wrong, you FAIL.
If you get less than or equal to 30% wrong, you SUCCEED.
Notice how if you FAIL, you cant move forward?
Now replace (school test) and (challenge <= 30% questions wrong) with a Boss fight / Event
If we went with your analogy above, no matter what mistakes me or my team makes, we still get a chest, and get to move forward into the dungeon.
But no, we cant actually. We have to kill the boss / complete the event to move forward and get rewards.
In reality, challenge = X amount of mistakes that can be made before we fail it
So, what then needs to be decided by everyone is what X should be that determines the SUCCESS or FAILURE. Should it be high or low?
…But with certain fights, one or two mistakes can make you waste 10 minutes to one hour of fighting and they’re so messy we’re unable to tell what went wrong except if we look on the Wiki/forums. So much for learning by ourselves. It’s a game, not a school test….
Understandable
But the same happens with a school test too. If you ended up taking a test 4 times, failing the first 3 times, and it takes you 30 mins to do the test, you essentially wasted ‘2 hours’ to pass the test and move forward.
…= Unfun, not challenging, just annoying….
No, its challenging. Just the difficulty of the challenge hits a plataeu where it becomes unfun.
Unfun doesnt negate challenge.
(edited by mugsmoney.5239)
Sorry, double posted
I understand what your saying here, but the analogy is incorrect. Your assuming that in regards to this ‘test’ or ‘essay’, no matter of how many mistakes I make (which I get to see and learn from), it does not prevent me from moving forward. Hmm….
I’ll stop answering after this. In two posts, you missed twice my point or took it out of proportion.
I never implied we could never fail after X mistakes like I never implied I didn’t want failure at all. I was merely asking for more mistakes allowed for us in order to fail in a game unlike certain fights where things can go to hell for two missteps and throw out of the windows minutes of fight.
(edited by NickChabby.8907)
snip
Driving license tests auto fail you for making critical mistakes. Yes you can make mistakes and still pass (equivalence of taking a hit and not dying) but you can also fail for not bringing your A-game. Bell-curved grading for grad school entrance exams. You arent graded for how well you do, you’re graded how well you compare to other examinees. You may fail for making 2-4 mistakes or for just not being as creative for essays.
This move by A-net is basically telling players that in order to do dungeons, you must complete it under these circumstances. By doing this, they are pushing the players to become more knowledgable and competent to make use of the mechanics given to them to clear encounters. You are given an infinite amount of tries to learn from your mistakes for a small price of a repair bill + your time. Other places make you pay thousands of dollars to attempt at proving you learned your lesson.
Crucible of Eternity is now impossible, pathetic update ….. path 1, if someone die, it’s over.
Subject Alpha + the new system = impossible.
Awesome Arena net, Thank you for ruining our pleasure
Learn to dodge and CoE is just fine. People shouldn’t have been dying in the first place. Hopefully after a while people that can’t dodge will stop running CoE and make them more enjoyable for the rest of us.
I’m a new player and think that this mechanic is working against me. I joined a PUG and let them know I was new and that I had not done this dungeon before. I really want to learn the dungeons so I can form my own groups later. I died fairly often and did not get to see a lot of the dungeon or fights because I had to wait for the team to win or wipe. Even though the people on the team said they would communicate about what to do they did not. After helping out the best I could while paying attention to the other players I got kicked right before the end. It’s hard to be a new player on this game when the established players are not helpful and have no incentive or encouragement from Arena Net to help new players.
Crucible of Eternity is now impossible, pathetic update ….. path 1, if someone die, it’s over.
Subject Alpha + the new system = impossible.
Awesome Arena net, Thank you for ruining our pleasure
Learn to dodge and CoE is just fine. People shouldn’t have been dying in the first place. Hopefully after a while people that can’t dodge will stop running CoE and make them more enjoyable for the rest of us.
I personally hope that the people that don’t know how to dodge will die and reset until they’ll learn.
not the other way around
Not really. People who preferred throwing themselves at the boss without actually learning the mechanics will have a hard time.
Throwing ourselves? Did you read my post?
We read the wiki, watched playthroughs on youtube, looked on the forum to LEARN the mechanic before trying the boss. We spend two hours and a half trying without succeeding in any way. Getting instantly downed with AOE everywhere, even when trying to stick together or even dodging…. It’s dis-gus-ting, unfun and against any kind of good design for fun experience.
Even when we ‘learn’ the so-called mechanics, most of the dungeons are broken or inconsistent in many ways. Some of them got better, but some got worse. It was all about trying to please everybody, which this patch fails now. This game was said to be for casual. I don’t call learning everything by heart and teaming with specific professions a casual play style.Like I said, it’s forcing on us your perspective instead of just allowing us to enjoy the moment and learning by ourselves. I didn’t learn any lessons from Subject Alpha fight 2. I didn’t. All it told me is that it sucked, was not fun and it was disgusting, wasting two hours of my time.
I’ve been killed thousand of times in video games in my life, each time I learned from it and I was able to identify what went wrong, what mistakes I did and the punishment wasn’t too hard. It was still fun. We did Sorrow Embrace path 2 before the patch. We had a hard time with the boss, but we learned from it, found strategies, tried different things. But this one (Subject Alpha), we don’t even have the chance for this. I’ve yet to try Arah exp or any other dungeons.
Right now, the dungeons kill any kind of motivation. With repair bills, big Aoe Zergs, lags sometimes, random party members or even with guildmates, it’s not fun (which was what Guild Wars 2 was supposed to be). Fractals should have been more difficult, not ‘normal’ dungeons.
If you wanted pure and harsh challenge, you could either run dungeons naked, solo it or whatever all by yourself. You could also choose to not use Waypoints at all. Everybody had a choice. Now we don’t. Only you are pleased. Once again the hardcore MMO players are changing Guild Wars 2 in a way we don’t like. First the ascended (though now with laurels it’s a little bit better), the big grinds for infusion/legendaries/ascended, and now the dungeons. Good job….
Perhaps you are reading/watching wrong guides. Alpha has only few attacks and they aren’t exactly hard to avoid.
Here is my guide for Subject Alpha: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgy1tVLvDOI
Hopefully it helps you better.
Not really. People who preferred throwing themselves at the boss without actually learning the mechanics will have a hard time.
Im going to go ahead and pretend like you didn’t think this comment through before you posted it.
Are you actually going to imply, That you youtube every single dungeon before you run it and futhermore expect every other player to do so as well?
You have never run into a dungeon blind?
Be realistic for a second please and make 1 valid attept to put the internet ego protection aura down..
NO ONE DOES THAT.
Any and every new player that rolls through a dungeon for the first time is going to struggle at least at first to fully understand and SEE how the bos mechanics work.Unless of coarse you are in a guild like mine that will take a trial and error group through to figure stuff out and you roll with us after the fact and win simply because We gave you incredible instructions via TS3, that is to say that you have the ability to follow extremely simplistic instruction.
Even then I see players drop time and time again. Because no matter how many videos you watch.. no matter the instructions or how well they are relayed.
everyone learns in his/her own way/time. Its up to each player to do what he/she needs to do in order to fine tune themselves to each situational dungeon mechanic vs his/her player class/spec.For example the first boss in AC exp.. Spider queen.
Ever see a each person rebuild their utility bar for condition removale? I bet not.
Do they also use at least 2 stun breakers to prevent themselves from being stuck in the webbing and thus held in the red aoe circles? Again I bet not.
A prime example of things that just don’t happen as often as they should in Gw2.
unless of coarse you run with a good group, play a full time support class/spec, belong to a good guild that makes you play right.Pugs/casual players generally Don’t do these things. Casual/pugs happen to be the common folk in Gw2.
1) Open text-box, type words, get results, profit
2) Stop, re-evaluate your tactic, improve, profit (for ~90% of bad teams new tactic means “hey let’s attack that boss again”)
(edited by Wethospu.6437)
it just thad the dungeon reword are not soo great for them and they make the run loot longer and soom groups u just need wp system the old one soom people dont have great pc or reaction time most fight effects are just under the show effects and the have run 100 time the runes soo i ting the new res system the made was dump for noob good for elitists o and i am dylexic and like soom sey it easy to dodge no it not becous the effect on soom fight are soo much biger u cant see the small red line on bad pcs ifen good pc it bit hard to see the small red line and u have to time the dodges soom people just are realy slow reaction time or soom classes skill make the dodges for thad momend cant us like warrior hundred blades when u us it u cant dodges
(edited by tonny.7580)
the develkopers are falling into the trap of trying to FORCE people to enjoy something in a certain fashion, instead of letting their content speak for itself. That shows a serious insecurity on the part of the development team.
If they really intend for more teamwork then they need to implement ingame voice, otherwise they have just started on the path of rewarding elitism and pushing the beginners out.
Congrats anet, you just reinforced the need for specific builds to support the good old tank/healer/dps model.
Rezzing was detrimental in the past and there was plenty of incentive to learn how to work together, but at least there was opportunity to learn as a beginner or as an experiment on a group makeup Terrible change to an otherise nicely done update.
If you want teramwork put the tools in place to assist this; namely in game voice.
Crucible of Eternity is now impossible, pathetic update ….. path 1, if someone die, it’s over.
Subject Alpha + the new system = impossible.
Awesome Arena net, Thank you for ruining our pleasure
Learn to dodge and CoE is just fine. People shouldn’t have been dying in the first place. Hopefully after a while people that can’t dodge will stop running CoE and make them more enjoyable for the rest of us.
I personally hope that the people that don’t know how to dodge will die and reset until they’ll learn.
not the other way around
Exactly, rez-rushing is generally considered an unpolished last resort and something to be avoided, but a final option for a new group to get through and chalk one up to experience. Now it is a matter of starting a dungeon and kicking people instead of teaching them.
Not really. People who preferred throwing themselves at the boss without actually learning the mechanics will have a hard time.
Throwing ourselves? Did you read my post?
We read the wiki, watched playthroughs on youtube, looked on the forum to LEARN the mechanic before trying the boss. We spend two hours and a half trying without succeeding in any way. Getting instantly downed with AOE everywhere, even when trying to stick together or even dodging…. It’s dis-gus-ting, unfun and against any kind of good design for fun experience.
Even when we ‘learn’ the so-called mechanics, most of the dungeons are broken or inconsistent in many ways. Some of them got better, but some got worse. It was all about trying to please everybody, which this patch fails now. This game was said to be for casual. I don’t call learning everything by heart and teaming with specific professions a casual play style.Like I said, it’s forcing on us your perspective instead of just allowing us to enjoy the moment and learning by ourselves. I didn’t learn any lessons from Subject Alpha fight 2. I didn’t. All it told me is that it sucked, was not fun and it was disgusting, wasting two hours of my time.
I’ve been killed thousand of times in video games in my life, each time I learned from it and I was able to identify what went wrong, what mistakes I did and the punishment wasn’t too hard. It was still fun. We did Sorrow Embrace path 2 before the patch. We had a hard time with the boss, but we learned from it, found strategies, tried different things. But this one (Subject Alpha), we don’t even have the chance for this. I’ve yet to try Arah exp or any other dungeons.
Right now, the dungeons kill any kind of motivation. With repair bills, big Aoe Zergs, lags sometimes, random party members or even with guildmates, it’s not fun (which was what Guild Wars 2 was supposed to be). Fractals should have been more difficult, not ‘normal’ dungeons.
If you wanted pure and harsh challenge, you could either run dungeons naked, solo it or whatever all by yourself. You could also choose to not use Waypoints at all. Everybody had a choice. Now we don’t. Only you are pleased. Once again the hardcore MMO players are changing Guild Wars 2 in a way we don’t like. First the ascended (though now with laurels it’s a little bit better), the big grinds for infusion/legendaries/ascended, and now the dungeons. Good job….
This is an A++ post and says it all. The developers just formalized the split between the elitists who would really appreciate the challenge and deserve a special reward for choosing it and the majority who are now finding it even more difficult to get in a group and get to finish the first boss because kicking a downed player is now easier than giving a quick lesson.