A Suggestion For Raids

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

It’s something that the devs acknowledge:

No, I get what they’re saying and understand the issue, but “combine two 5-man teams” is not inherently simpler than “combine one five man team with five other people.” I’m not saying those 5-mans aren’t out there looking for another five, I just don’t see how there’s any way to make things that much easier for them.

Allowing a pre-made 5-man fractal team easier access to Raids is important in increasing accessibility. A half-filled team of random player is different to a pre-made 5-man team.

I can see how a pre-made Fractal expert 5-man team could be more useful to join your team than five randos, but how would you guarantee any level of quality? what would stop five randos from deciding that their best bet was to join up with each other and join the “5-manx2 queue” or whatever it gets called, and be paired with five players who probably have a better idea what they’re doing?

“A system that only groups you with players as good or better than you are” is the white whale the PvP team has been chasing for years now, and I can tell from experience that they aren’t remotely close.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

“A system that only groups you with players as good or better than you are” is the white whale the PvP team has been chasing for years now, and I can tell from experience that they aren’t remotely close.

I don’t think it’s something that can solved with a queue, like the PVP matchmaker, or troublemaker. The first step is to make sure that a 5-man fractal group can actually enter the Raid as that 5-man fractal team without changing their composition. That’s really important and it goes together with the balance. Of course this means those OP builds in Fractals that are terrible in Raids, need to be looked at and balanced accordingly.

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

The first step is to make sure that a 5-man fractal group can actually enter the Raid as that 5-man fractal team without changing their composition. That’s really important and it goes together with the balance. Of course this means those OP builds in Fractals that are terrible in Raids, need to be looked at and balanced accordingly.

I’m not even sure that’s likely though. I mean, individual build balance would certainly help, but Fractal teams are built around Fractals, 5-man content with certain challenges specific to those Fractal bosses, instabilities, and Agony. Raids are built around having ten men, many with more specific individual roles, but less of those individual roles than a Fractal team might have (1/10 tanks rather than 2/10 tanks, for example), and challenges specific to the raid encounters. I don’t think it would be possible for a Fractal team you just roll into being half a Raid team, not without significantly loosening the challenges the raid presents, some sort of. . . “less difficult mode” or something to that effect.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Vinceman.4572

Vinceman.4572

I’m not saying that this would be easy, or that it wouldn’t be time consuming…

Exactly, and just have a realistic thought about it how to implement such a big thing. It interferes with so many other stuff in the game. At least with a little bit of profound knowledge in game design you would agree that such big change would costs thousands of hours of time consuming simulations, followed by balancing and again simulations and balancing etc. to make sure you don’t destroy some areas of the game because no one would ever visit them due to getting the shinies much easier elsewhere.

Sry Ohoni, but sometimes it would be okay if you also think about all the side effects of your so called ideas instead of saying: “But it is possible.”, and admit that some of those ideas are terrible in a realistic scenario.

Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

Exactly, and just have a realistic thought about it how to implement such a big thing. It interferes with so many other stuff in the game. At least with a little bit of profound knowledge in game design you would agree that such big change would costs thousands of hours of time consuming simulations, followed by balancing and again simulations and balancing etc. to make sure you don’t destroy some areas of the game because no one would ever visit them due to getting the shinies much easier elsewhere.

True, to a point, but again, this is a case of “don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.” I mean for all the complaining about Silver Waste farming, AB multi-farming, now Bitterfrost farming, etc., the past and current game are not perfect, they do make mistakes, it happens and that’s ok. The most important thing here is not that they get it absolutely perfect on the first try, it’s that they have contingencies in place so that if something seems fishy, they can pull a level and go “nope, no more of that” and shut down certain areas until they can fix it, or at least nerf it hard and then maybe fill it back in once they’ve figured out what’s going on there. all they need is to be nimble about it.

It’s quite possible that certain areas would end up being much more efficient than others, and some much less efficient, but that doesn’t mean that these areas are forever doomed to that fate, they can always go back in and make the necessary tweaks.

Sry Ohoni, but sometimes it would be okay if you also think about all the side effects of your so called ideas instead of saying: “But it is possible.”, and admit that some of those ideas are terrible in a realistic scenario.

I can’t say that I always realize every potential problem, but I do always consider the issue from as many angles as possible. If I suggest something, I’ve likely thought of the same concerns you’d raise about it, I’ve just decided that the good outweighs the bad. Too many times around here, any flaw, no matter how small, is pounced on as “it’s not absolutely perfect,” when that’s an impossible standard to meet, and if it was the standard actually used, then nothing would change in the game. They certainly never would have added raids.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Vinceman.4572

Vinceman.4572

If one thing in GW2 has shown to be 100% true is the fact of players going the way of least resistance.
So there only needs to be a little unbalance in acquiring stuff from a different source than the original, the source has been fallen to death.

Your idea sounds to me like: Logging in, activate the reward track of my favor and play stuff I like. Because in the end that is what you have to do to make it all equal without being unfair to anyone in this game.

Well, that’s not my style and I doubt you find many supporters. You really should make good and realistic suggestions and stop saying “my starting point is valid and fine but I don’t present any reasonable approaches”.

Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

If one thing in GW2 has shown to be 100% true is the fact of players going the way of least resistance.

True, to a point, although it’s more accurate to say that many players follow the path of least resistance, plenty others do other things instead. But yeah, if there’s a particularly easy way, people will take it, but if it turns out there is a particularly easy way, then ANet can make it less easy.

And again, I think it’s important to not try to balance the original with the alternatives, but rather to balance the alternatives with each other, and to be less than the original. like whatever “balanced” is between the original and the nearest alternative, the original should offer that much and more, so that the alternative doesn’t even come close. Players should go in understanding that the original path is definitely the most efficient, the alternatives are just there for people who really don’t want to go the original route, or who really love that alternative play mode.

Your idea sounds to me like: Logging in, activate the reward track of my favor and play stuff I like. Because in the end that is what you have to do to make it all equal without being unfair to anyone in this game.

That would be one way to go, and I think could certainly work. Of course different activities would progress the track at different rates, and if you were ion a given area then you would be advancing other goals as well. For example, let’s say that there were a “Forsaken Thicket” track. As a very high challenge content, it might progress much slower than other tracks, and the “keystone” rewards on it would be in very small quantities, so you’d need to max it out many times over to reach the maximum rewards, and in that time you could have cleared dozens and dozens of, say, dungeon tracks. Maybe hundreds. And if you were to pursue that track while playing hardcore raids, the progression you would get from that would be massive relative to some other content, so you’d be ticking it over much faster than normal, on top of getting drops directly from the raid itself. If you were pursuing this track by running content in Bitterfrost, on the other hand, it would progress that track very slowly, but you would also be accumulating Winterberries, karma, farming junk from the chests, etc., the other rewards inherent to that zone. It would basically allow you to either go all-in on the content and rewards of a single location, or “dual track” and collect a little from two different locations at once.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

Take a look here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/A-Plea-for-a-Raid-Story-Mode/first#post6416831

We’re investigating different methods to make the story more accessible. I can’t share any details at this time, but wanted to let you know we’re exploring a few potential options internally. As with everything in development, this isn’t a guarantee. I want to set expectations accordingly.

Wait and see what that is?

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Absurdo.8309

Absurdo.8309

Why can’t you just buy raids with the gold you earn in other activities? That’s functionally the same thing as a reward track.

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Absurdo.8309

Absurdo.8309

Why can’t you just buy raids with the gold you earn in other activities? That’s functionally the same thing as a reward track.

I know you’re joking, but the truth is that doesn’t work for the same reason that entering a completely cleared instance doesn’t work.

Video game storytelling is about more than the words and the lore. It is about personally experiencing the story – fighting the fights (even if they aren’t hardcore) and being the hero of the story.

Buying the story from someone else or taking a tour after the fact just aren’t fun or interesting for most people.

He is complaining about rewards, not story.

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Blaeys.3102

Blaeys.3102

Why can’t you just buy raids with the gold you earn in other activities? That’s functionally the same thing as a reward track.

I know you’re joking, but the truth is that doesn’t work for the same reason that entering a completely cleared instance doesn’t work.

Video game storytelling is about more than the words and the lore. It is about personally experiencing the story – fighting the fights (even if they aren’t hardcore) and being the hero of the story.

Buying the story from someone else or taking a tour after the fact just aren’t fun or interesting for most people.

He is complaining about rewards, not story.

My bad. I will delete my response (and try to read a bit more thoroughly in the future ).

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Vinceman.4572

Vinceman.4572

That would be one way to go, and I think could certainly work. Of course different activities would progress the track at different rates, and if you were ion a given area then you would be advancing other goals as well. For example, let’s say that there were a “Forsaken Thicket” track. As a very high challenge content, it might progress much slower than other tracks, and the “keystone” rewards on it would be in very small quantities, so you’d need to max it out many times over to reach the maximum rewards, and in that time you could have cleared dozens and dozens of, say, dungeon tracks. Maybe hundreds. And if you were to pursue that track while playing hardcore raids, the progression you would get from that would be massive relative to some other content, so you’d be ticking it over much faster than normal, on top of getting drops directly from the raid itself. If you were pursuing this track by running content in Bitterfrost, on the other hand, it would progress that track very slowly, but you would also be accumulating Winterberries, karma, farming junk from the chests, etc., the other rewards inherent to that zone. It would basically allow you to either go all-in on the content and rewards of a single location, or “dual track” and collect a little from two different locations at once.

Yeah, that wouldn’t be my game any more and I strongly believe the game would lose more ppl than win in the end.

Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Skyric.9246

Skyric.9246

The back and forth on this thread is pointless because at the end of the day everything revolves around a normative question the answer to which can’t be proven true or false. The question is this: Should there be exclusive rewards based on a combination of skill and grind or not?

I think the answer to this question is yes. If the devs decided to give a unique armor skin or mini or whatever to people who win the ESL Pro League spvp tournament and those happen to be the coolest looking items in the game, I wouldn’t care. I would accept that those are rewards I would never get, move on and it wouldn’t bother me in the slightest. Same thing if they locked exclusive armor skins to people who could complete a wing of Forsaken Thicket in under 40 minutes or something like that.

I understand people are paying customers, but skill based rewards in games have been around forever and there is no reason to eliminate them. I also don’t buy the utilitarian argument of the greatest good for the greatest number because the greatest number can be wrong and unreasonable.

I find the idea that raids poisoned the game ridiculous. Most of the entire game is trivially easy, and I think it’s a good thing that the developers added challenging content to the game that not everyone has the time, skill or patience to complete. And for those that can, I think it entirely appropriate that they get exclusive rewards that no one else will get. The fact that the community appears to be divided over raids just shows there is no limit to how whiny people can be in this game. 99% of the game is for the casuals. Let the 1% have their raids and the exclusive raid rewards that go with it.

The fact that there are 13 pages of comments to what amount to basically a couple of armor skins boggles my mind. In any case there is nowhere this discussion can go, which is why they need to close this thread. Either you agree with me that there is nothing inherently wrong with skins locked behind raids or other skill-based methods, or you agree with Ohoni that it is unacceptable for anyone not to be able to get every skin they want and that everyone should get envoy armor by grinding something easy. I find his position to be completely untenable for several reasons that he will never agree with, and I’m sure he finds my position untenable for reasons that I will never agree with. There’s nothing either camp can say to change the others’ mind, and everything’s been hashed to the nth degree.

I, for one, support skill based challenges and exclusive rewards, but either way, I don’t envy Anet. They have to deal with one of the whiniest player bases I have ever seen. People should stop responding to these threads so this insanity stops and people will hopefully quit with these unprovable and unsupportable positions

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

Why can’t you just buy raids with the gold you earn in other activities? That’s functionally the same thing as a reward track.

In theory, you would be correct on that, but they have so broken the gold economy that it’s not worth considering at this point. The fundamental flaw they made was that they allowed people to buy items off the TP, and then resell them for more gold than they paid. This causes the gold value of luxury goods to rise to well amove any reasonable amount. I’m sure that raiders love the idea of people paying them thousands of gold to get Legendary Armor, but it doesn’t work out well for anyone else.

Yeah, that wouldn’t be my game any more and I strongly believe the game would lose more ppl than win in the end.

It’s sad that you think that, but perhaps in considering that you understand how many of us feel that way about GW2 having raids that are required to unlock Legendary Armor.

The back and forth on this thread is pointless because at the end of the day everything revolves around a normative question the answer to which can’t be proven true or false. The question is this: Should there be exclusive rewards based on a combination of skill and grind or not?

The point is not for people in this thread to arrive at a consensus as to the best possible solution that we all agree with. That is unlikely to ever happen. Rather, the point of this discussion is to raise as many possible strengths and weaknesses to various proposals, figure out all the potential outcomes we can, and why each outcome would be good or bad overall, and then allow ANet to decide what they want to do about it, given that they know a lot more about the internal workings of their studio, and have more big picture data about how players engage with their game.

I also don’t buy the utilitarian argument of the greatest good for the greatest number because the greatest number can be wrong and unreasonable.

When we’re talking about personal opinion, that cannot be true. If the greatest number want something, then that’s what they want. You don’t have to give it to them, but you do need a good reason not to, and “because a smaller number would prefer they not have it” is not a good enough reason.

I find the idea that raids poisoned the game ridiculous. Most of the entire game is trivially easy, and I think it’s a good thing that the developers added challenging content to the game that not everyone has the time, skill or patience to complete.

But again, I think that’s a silly argument. If “most of the game” is trivially easy, and if plenty of people enjoy that experience, then wouldn’t the people who don’t enjoy that experience be the ones in the wrong? If you don’t enjoy “most of the game,” then maybe this game isn’t for you, and you should play a game where most of it is not trivially easy, rather than defending portions of the game that are overly difficult by the standards of the rest of the game. Uneven difficulty, especially when that uneven difficulty blocks off rewards and content from players, just divides the playerbase into haves and havenots.

99% of the game is for the casuals. Let the 1% have their raids and the exclusive raid rewards that go with it.

No.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Nokaru.7831

Nokaru.7831

I hope that this story mode solution they are working up with will adequately satisfy everyone that wants to experience the story. Since a developer has come outright and told us bluntly that scaling difficulty isn’t in the future for raiding, it’ll be interesting to see what they do. Perhaps because they want to maintain the identity of raids being challenging content, an “easy mode” somehow compromises this.

When I think of “Fractals”, despite it having a rather high ceiling for difficulty, Fractals is not identified as “challenging content.” While Scale 100 Nightmare Challenge Mode is, “Fractals” themselves, for good or ill, are not. Raids do not have this identity crisis.

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

Perhaps because they want to maintain the identity of raids being challenging content, an “easy mode” somehow compromises this.

I never really understood this line of reasoning. An easy mode in no way cheapens the challenge of the harder mode, especially if players have access to the harder one first, so they can’t use the easy mode to “scout out” hard mode options. I mean, if player A beats the hard mode, and player A beats the easy mode, that does not in any way make player A’s accomplishments less impressive. I mean, even if I were to manage to beat the existing VG by the skin of my teeth, that in no way takes away from the accomplishments of those teams that manage it with minimum size, minimum gearing, minimum time, etc., and those accomplishments aren’t even recognized by the game’s code in any way. Impressive is impressive, and someone accomplishing similar, but clearly distinct variations on the content in no way takes away from that. If anyone feels otherwise, that’s a problem they need to work out within themselves.

When I think of “Fractals”, despite it having a rather high ceiling for difficulty, Fractals is not identified as “challenging content.” While Scale 100 Nightmare Challenge Mode is, “Fractals” themselves, for good or ill, are not.

I don’t think that’s true at all. It was certainly billed as challenging at first, and the community certainly embraced it as challenging at the time. The early tiers are designed to be accessible to players with less skill, but whether successful or not, the mid to top tiers have always been intended as “challenging content” by any reasonable standard of expectation.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Oh Snapalope.1378

Oh Snapalope.1378

I don’t get why people think they deserve rewards for content they can’t complete. To be honest, the time spent typing the original post up could have been used to train or learn.

(edited by Oh Snapalope.1378)

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

I hope that this story mode solution they are working up with will adequately satisfy everyone that wants to experience the story.

They already mentioned that it’s not exactly a “story mode”, and that they aren’t exactly working on anything yet, merely considering things, so i doubt it. Especially since their previous idea of getting people to experience that story was the books in chapter 1. Which completely missed the point.

Since a developer has come outright and told us bluntly that scaling difficulty isn’t in the future for raiding

They haven’t. All they said was that it wasn’t considered when they started doing raids.

I don’t get why people think they deserve rewards for content they can’t complete.

And i don’t get why people think they deserve better rewards just because they happen to like a different type of content.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Oh Snapalope.1378

Oh Snapalope.1378

Is this generation this casual or something that they think they deserve rewards for stuff they can’t complete? Most MMOs and other games gate rewards by difficulty and it’s nothing new.

Going back to an ancient game called Runescape. To get the fire cape you need to do the fight cave quest and it was very hard at the time to beat it. If you can’t beat the fight caves, you don’t get the cape simple as that. Nobody back then complained and moaned saying they deserve the cape even though they can’t finish the fight caves.

Ok another example from Runescape. To get to the Elven city there is a super long and very difficult quest line with many requirements. There’s also a lot of story elements in it as well. Again nobody said they just want to experience the story in an easier version of the quest line and get to the city for free. It’s just something that’s a given that if you can’t overcome the difficulty, you don’t deserve the reward.

Gating good rewards behind difficult content is not a new thing it has been a thing in gaming for ages. I don’t know why people suddenly started to complain about it.

(edited by Oh Snapalope.1378)

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

Is this generation this casual or something that they think they deserve rewards for stuff they can’t complete?

I think you are mistaken. Many of people that are against raid exclusivity (myself included), aren’t a new generation, but veterans that got tired of those “Most MMO games” long ago.

We’ve all been there, done that, and in the end didn’t consider it a good thing.

(as a side note, hearing Runescape called “ancient” suddenly made me feel really old…)

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

(edited by Astralporing.1957)

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

Is this generation this casual or something that they think they deserve rewards for stuff they can’t complete?

I think you are mistaken. Many of people that are against raid exclusivity (myself included), aren’t a new generation, but veterans that got tired of those “Most MMO games” long ago.

We’ve all been there, done that, and in the end didn’t consider it a good thing.

(as a side note, hearing Runescape called “ancient” suddenly made me feel really old…)

So why are you here asking for a new mode of raiding, a gametype you actively dislike ?

Wouldn’t your time be better spent asking for equivalent rewards from a new source ….Say Legendary Armor from WvW instead ?

And please spare me the, but look how long its taking for raiding excuse. It would take them just as much time to completely rebuild raiding from the ground up as it would to make new rewards that are a good quality.

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

I don’t get why people think they deserve rewards for content they can’t complete.

I don’t get why people think they do deserve rewards for content they have completed. It’s all arbitrary, nobody deserves anything. The devs just say “hey, we’ve got this reward, let’s stick it over there,” and if you do that thing, you get that reward. There’s no reason why someone who doesn’t want to do that thing can’t ask for it to also be found elsewhere.

Is this generation this casual or something that they think they deserve rewards for stuff they can’t complete? Most MMOs and other games gate rewards by difficulty and it’s nothing new.

Welcome to the Guild Wars 2 community! Guild Wars 2 is based on moving away from that sort of toxic mindset. It’s cooperative, not competitive, and it embraces the fact that this is a community of largely challenge-casual players.

I think you are mistaken. Many of people that are against raid exclusivity (myself included), aren’t a new generation, but veterans that got tired of those “Most MMO games” long ago.

True enough, I’ve been playing MMOs for over a decade and a half now.

So why are you here asking for a new mode of raiding, a gametype you actively dislike ?

I can’t speak for Astral, but the type of raiding I’m asking for is one that I would like, because it does away with the elements that I don’t like. That’s why I’m asking for it, because the version I’m asking for is the version I want to play. I would have thought that much obvious.

Wouldn’t your time be better spent asking for equivalent rewards from a new source ….Say Legendary Armor from WvW instead ?

Not just from WvW, since I don’t WvW any more than I raid, but I’ve noted that alternate open world PvE sources would work for me. But even if they did that, I’d still like to see an easier version of the raids.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Miellyn.6847

Miellyn.6847

Welcome to the Guild Wars 2 community! Guild Wars 2 is based on moving away from that sort of toxic mindset. It’s cooperative, not competitive, and it embraces the fact that this is a community of largely challenge-casual players.

There were always rewards in harder content, not available for everyone. GW2 never moved away from that. It is cooperative in a form that you don’t fight for ressources or rewards if you play the same content together, not that every reward is available in every content for everyone. It is like that since release.

It never ‘embraced’ the fact that the majority are casual players. Every MMORPG has the casual players as majority, yes even WildStar. There were always things that were suppossed to fill the niche for challenging content and they had always their own rewards.

Maybe stop making up facts to prove your points. GW2 was never the game you want it to be or you want others to believe it is.

Not just from WvW, since I don’t WvW any more than I raid, but I’ve noted that alternate open world PvE sources would work for me. But even if they did that, I’d still like to see an easier version of the raids.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/5frr5z/story_mode_raid/damqeha/

Meena Wolfsgeist | Ranger
Ceana Mera | Mesmer
Indra Nebelklinge | Revenant

(edited by Miellyn.6847)

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Joxer.6024

Joxer.6024

I don’t get why people think they deserve rewards for content they can’t complete.

I don’t get why people think they do deserve rewards for content they have completed. It’s all arbitrary, nobody deserves anything. The devs just say “hey, we’ve got this reward, let’s stick it over there,” and if you do that thing, you get that reward. There’s no reason why someone who doesn’t want to do that thing can’t ask for it to also be found elsewhere.

Is this generation this casual or something that they think they deserve rewards for stuff they can’t complete? Most MMOs and other games gate rewards by difficulty and it’s nothing new.

Welcome to the Guild Wars 2 community! Guild Wars 2 is based on moving away from that sort of toxic mindset. It’s cooperative, not competitive, and it embraces the fact that this is a community of largely challenge-casual players.

I think you are mistaken. Many of people that are against raid exclusivity (myself included), aren’t a new generation, but veterans that got tired of those “Most MMO games” long ago.

True enough, I’ve been playing MMOs for over a decade and a half now.

So why are you here asking for a new mode of raiding, a gametype you actively dislike ?

I can’t speak for Astral, but the type of raiding I’m asking for is one that I would like, because it does away with the elements that I don’t like. That’s why I’m asking for it, because the version I’m asking for is the version I want to play. I would have thought that much obvious.

Wouldn’t your time be better spent asking for equivalent rewards from a new source ….Say Legendary Armor from WvW instead ?

Not just from WvW, since I don’t WvW any more than I raid, but I’ve noted that alternate open world PvE sources would work for me. But even if they did that, I’d still like to see an easier version of the raids.

So, you’re a 5 year vet? (oops, sorry. re-read that and I see you say 10+ years…but still)Wow, that’s sooo long. Vanilla WOW came out in what, 04’ ? Not counting also the many many others as well. Hmmm….
And why is it that many times you are asked a question or something of the like and your “educated” response is “NO”? Lol…..
I keep telling myself to stop but I keep coming back here because its hard to believe its still going! I dunno, I’m just baffled really.
But don’t reply….can’t be bothered to read the same junk…was just bored. OH WAIT!! Is that ANET’s fault?? Maybe I should start a thread and complain.

(edited by Joxer.6024)

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Joxer.6024

Joxer.6024

Is this generation this casual or something that they think they deserve rewards for stuff they can’t complete?

Yup, same ones that want everyone on sports team to get a trophy, not just the “winners” and the same generation that now has graduation for each and every class, not just your most senior. Its scary.

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

So, you’re a 5 year vet? (oops, sorry. re-read that and I see you say 10+ years…but still)Wow, that’s sooo long. Vanilla WOW came out in what, 04’ ? Not counting also the many many others as well. Hmmm….

My first was the Asheron’s Call beta, and I did play Vanilla WoW for about 6-8 months, but I’ve mostly bounced from MMO to MMO over the years because none of them really suited me. GW2 is the first I’ve stuck with for much more than a year at a time, mainly because of the many things it does differently than other MMOs.

So far.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Absurdo.8309

Absurdo.8309

Why can’t you just buy raids with the gold you earn in other activities? That’s functionally the same thing as a reward track.

In theory, you would be correct on that, but they have so broken the gold economy that it’s not worth considering at this point. The fundamental flaw they made was that they allowed people to buy items off the TP, and then resell them for more gold than they paid. This causes the gold value of luxury goods to rise to well amove any reasonable amount. I’m sure that raiders love the idea of people paying them thousands of gold to get Legendary Armor, but it doesn’t work out well for anyone else.

I think this response shows that he wants to press 1 to receive rewards.

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

So why are you here asking for a new mode of raiding, a gametype you actively dislike ?

Wouldn’t your time be better spent asking for equivalent rewards from a new source ….Say Legendary Armor from WvW instead ?

it wouldn’t be that bad of a solution… if only they started working on it at the same time they started on envoy armor. It’s been over a year now, and they haven’t even done the first set.

So, no, thank you. I get it that you are completely fine with waiting for the second set, but that’s mainly because it wouldn’t be you doing that.

So, for all practical reasons, envoy is the only legendary armor set that can be reasonably considered here.

Now, if you are saying that the Envoy armor should be opened to WvW, i’d be perfectly fine with that. I don’t actually play it that much, but at least it’s not actively unfun to me.

And please spare me the, but look how long its taking for raiding excuse. It would take them just as much time to completely rebuild raiding from the ground up as it would to make new rewards that are a good quality.

No, i don’t expect them to take 2 years + (which is my most hopeful estimate for any new non-envoy legendary armor set, assuming they’d start now) just to make an easy mode.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

I think this response shows that he wants to press 1 to receive rewards.

Except that that has nothing to do with what I actually said, and you just enjoy making ad hominem attacks when you can’t make a valid response on the issues.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Goldfox.5729

Goldfox.5729

Mother of.. this thread is still going !? What have I done …

‘’Many have eyes, but few have seen.’’ – Scriptures of Lyssa, 45 BE

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Joxer.6024

Joxer.6024

Mother of.. this thread is still going !? What have I done …

AH YEA!! It was you!! All your fault mate. End it please….just please……

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Hypairion.9210

Hypairion.9210

Mother of.. this thread is still going !? What have I done …

Nice topic idea, but polluted by people wanting easy access to raid reward, without wanting to create a topic for that…

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Nokaru.7831

Nokaru.7831

Mother of.. this thread is still going !? What have I done …

Every time some thread about raids gets any sort of attention, a certain cast of characters keeps coming to these threads to say the same lines they’ve said a thousand times before.

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Linken.6345

Linken.6345

Mother of.. this thread is still going !? What have I done …

Nice topic idea, but polluted by people wanting easy access to raid reward, without wanting to create a topic for that…

‘’In what other ways would the tiers be distinguished from eachother?’’

Tiers could be distinguished not only in difficulty but also in the rewards and progression you get to specific things. For an example, doing Tier 1 would give you a certain currency that you can convert into a currency of Tier 2 and so forth. The weekly cap from Tier 3 would not apply on the lower tiers, giving more room for advanced players to farm Raids more often and still get all the rewards they want. And this would also motivate people who try it out on Tier 1 to try to go even higher and on a more consistent amount. One other important thing to distinguish the tiers from eachother is by locking the LFG into specific tiers just the same as with Fractals. This would keep the division of advanced players and new players but still keep every kind of player satisfied that they are able to delve into this large chunk of content.

From the OP just becouse some posters discuss only 1 of the aspects of the OP dont mean they are polluting the thread

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Hypairion.9210

Hypairion.9210

Mother of.. this thread is still going !? What have I done …

Nice topic idea, but polluted by people wanting easy access to raid reward, without wanting to create a topic for that…

‘’In what other ways would the tiers be distinguished from eachother?’’

Tiers could be distinguished not only in difficulty but also in the rewards and progression you get to specific things. For an example, doing Tier 1 would give you a certain currency that you can convert into a currency of Tier 2 and so forth. The weekly cap from Tier 3 would not apply on the lower tiers, giving more room for advanced players to farm Raids more often and still get all the rewards they want. And this would also motivate people who try it out on Tier 1 to try to go even higher and on a more consistent amount. One other important thing to distinguish the tiers from eachother is by locking the LFG into specific tiers just the same as with Fractals. This would keep the division of advanced players and new players but still keep every kind of player satisfied that they are able to delve into this large chunk of content.

From the OP just becouse some posters discuss only 1 of the aspects of the OP dont mean they are polluting the thread

Yes, sure…I’m so sure that if we looked at the last pages one name won’t appear before all other poster, not even once talking about ACTUAL raid accessibility (which is the topic of the thread)

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Pregnantman.8259

Pregnantman.8259

I just want to say that if or when we get tiered raid system, their rewards shouldn’t be the same at all. In most other games the gear you obtain from lower tiers are different and/or weaker than higher tier gear, and serve to power up the players to withstand damage in higher tiers. You do not grind lower tiers to get higher tiers’ loot. Likewise, it would be unfair for raiders if an easy mode offered same rewards – even if it would take longer to get them in easy mode.

Fractals have this in a way. Loot tables of daily fractal chests show that Initiate’s Chest doesn’t yield any ascended chests, Adept’s has a small chance to yield only weapon chests, Expert’s has a higher chance to yield weapon chest and a small chance for armor and Master’s has an even higher chance to yield weapon chest and higher chance for armor. Each tier’s reward prepare for the higher tier, in form of agony slots. You can’t hope to grind T1 dailies for full ascended (not counting crafting and vendor).

Raids need organization and time for success (much more so than even t4 fractals to compare), and if an easy way out to get its rewards is to be introduced it would break the raid community apart. I mean, who would show the time and commitment to get better if they can just grind it in a failproof way?

Raid rewards are already RNG related and may not worth a whole lot, trinkets you can get from them are inferior to some much easier to get LS ones (blood ruby) and raid themed stuff are more often than not are put to gem store. Easy mode, if its ever implemented, shouldn’t take away the stuff raiders cling on to.

(edited by Pregnantman.8259)

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

Yes, sure…I’m so sure that if we looked at the last pages one name won’t appear before all other poster, not even once talking about ACTUAL raid accessibility (which is the topic of the thread)

Look, if you haven’t noticed, I only address points being brought up, and answer questions put to me. If you want to talk ONLY about accessibility, then ONLY ask questions and make points about accessibility, and that’s all I’ll talk about in response. If you talk about topics that are tangentially related to raids and accessibility, then I’m likely to follow, but I never lead in that direction.

I get that I’m chatty, I tend to post long walls of text because I want what I say to be clear (even though it’s often misunderstood, ignored, or forgotten anyway), and I tend to respond to several people at once, but that doesn’t mean that I’m the only one who cares, just that I talk the most.

I just want to say that if or when we get tiered raid system, their rewards shouldn’t be the same at all.

You see what I mean?

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Joxer.6024

Joxer.6024

Yes, sure…I’m so sure that if we looked at the last pages one name won’t appear before all other poster, not even once talking about ACTUAL raid accessibility (which is the topic of the thread)

Look, if you haven’t noticed, I only address points being brought up, and answer questions put to me. If you want to talk ONLY about accessibility, then ONLY ask questions and make points about accessibility, and that’s all I’ll talk about in response. If you talk about topics that are tangentially related to raids and accessibility, then I’m likely to follow, but I never lead in that direction.

I get that I’m chatty, I tend to post long walls of text because I want what I say to be clear (even though it’s often misunderstood, ignored, or forgotten anyway), and I tend to respond to several people at once, but that doesn’t mean that I’m the only one who cares, just that I talk the most.

I just want to say that if or when we get tiered raid system, their rewards shouldn’t be the same at all.

You see what I mean?

With your second “quote” ,don’t just take part of the paragraph to try and support your argument. If you read and quote the WHOLE thing you will see that they do not agree with what you have said you would like. So yea, anyone can cut and paste an argument to help your own cause, just be sure and get it all and make it truthful.

Actually, in all fairness @Ohoni…..go make a new thread with what it is you are actually trying to make a point with or what you would like to see. I for one have forgotten some what and I think its lost in this one amongst all the other stuffs that people have gone on about. Accessibility has been one topic but boy has it strayed. So yea, “refresh” us all if you will, and lets see how valid it can be.

(edited by Joxer.6024)

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

With your second “quote” ,don’t just take part of the paragraph to try and support your argument. If you read and quote the WHOLE thing you will see that they do not agree with what you have said you would like.

No, I got that. The point I was making was related to the first paragraph of my post, in that this other poster was the one who raised the point of “easier modes should not include raid loot,” so if I were to directly respond to the content of that post, people like Hypairion would throw a fit about how I was “talking about rewards again.” As I keep telling you guys, you don’t bring it up and I won’t. but if you make the point that easier raid modes should exclude raid rewards, then I will make a case opposing that.

I for one have forgotten some what and I think its lost in this one amongst all the other stuffs that people have gone on about. Accessibility has been one topic but boy has it strayed. So yea, “refresh” us all if you will, and lets see how valid it can be.

I’ll see what I can find the time to squeeze in. There are already a lot of threads about making easy mode raids going on, and it’s getting a bit cluttered. The last time I started a new thread it just got merged into 3-4 other similar topics. It’s almost as if a lot of people care about this topic and they’re hard to stamp out.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Linken.6345

Linken.6345

I just want to say that if or when we get tiered raid system, their rewards shouldn’t be the same at all. In most other games the gear you obtain from lower tiers are different and/or weaker than higher tier gear, and serve to power up the players to withstand damage in higher tiers. You do not grind lower tiers to get higher tiers’ loot. Likewise, it would be unfair for raiders if an easy mode offered same rewards – even if it would take longer to get them in easy mode.

Fractals have this in a way. Loot tables of daily fractal chests show that Initiate’s Chest doesn’t yield any ascended chests, Adept’s has a small chance to yield only weapon chests, Expert’s has a higher chance to yield weapon chest and a small chance for armor and Master’s has an even higher chance to yield weapon chest and higher chance for armor. Each tier’s reward prepare for the higher tier, in form of agony slots. You can’t hope to grind T1 dailies for full ascended (not counting crafting and vendor).

Raids need organization and time for success (much more so than even t4 fractals to compare), and if an easy way out to get its rewards is to be introduced it would break the raid community apart. I mean, who would show the time and commitment to get better if they can just grind it in a failproof way?

Raid rewards are already RNG related and may not worth a whole lot, trinkets you can get from them are inferior to some much easier to get LS ones (blood ruby) and raid themed stuff are more often than not are put to gem store. Easy mode, if its ever implemented, shouldn’t take away the stuff raiders cling on to.

So since you can do t1 for a very long time and get full ascended armor/weapons, but you conveniently not counting the vendor.

By your reasoning we should get a easier raid that get legendary over a unreasonably long time, but not impossible glad your onboard mate.

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Pregnantman.8259

Pregnantman.8259

I didnt include vendors and crafting, because my argument is about loot tables and how you cant get all rewards from a single tier, so by that account its impossible to get to full ascended only by ascended drops from daily chests in T1. Sure, I could have put a better example like Nightmare fractal – grinding its normal mode doesn’t give access to the Caustic skins in that you have to do its achievements first (including doing it in T4) and then complete challenge mode. Or another in form of raid loot system in WoW (arguably ‘the’ raid game) – each difficulty has gear quality associated with it and if you grind normal mode you don’t get a full set of armor from mythic mode, not ever.

I don’t know if you even actually read what I said. You may not like the example I put but that doesn’t change my point. My reasoning is there if you read it; tier rewards should be exclusive to their tiers. That means, even if lower tiers are able to give some parts for legendary, people would still need to do/grind hard (or current) tier to get legendary armor. This is very similar to how we obtain Ad Infinitum.

Raiders spent a lot of time learning, practicing and organizing to be able to grind the raid. Its only fair easy mode players spend more time grinding than current raid players. However, in order for time spent grinding easy mode to be ‘reasonable’, they would need to do hard mode to get other necessary components.

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

My reasoning is there if you read it; tier rewards should be exclusive to their tiers.

That’s not a reasoning, it’s an opinion, and many of us disagree.

Raiders spent a lot of time learning, practicing and organizing to be able to grind the raid. Its only fair easy mode players spend more time grinding than current raid players.

Agreed. Nobody’s claimed otherwise. The point of contention is that some people insist that no matter how much time players spend in easy mode, it should never add up to what a hard mode raider can accomplish in a couple months. I just can’t agree with that.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Nokaru.7831

Nokaru.7831

Would you be interested in an easy-mode raid that does not provide a direct path to Legendary Armor? (Easy-mode meaning a similar experience to normal-mode, but with more forgiving mechanics)

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Joxer.6024

Joxer.6024

Would you be interested in an easy-mode raid that does not provide a direct path to Legendary Armor? (Easy-mode meaning a similar experience to normal-mode, but with more forgiving mechanics)

Lol, go back many pages…..the answer is no. He wants the rewards but by doing an easy mode raid and therein lies all the disagreements.

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

Would you be interested in an easy-mode raid that does not provide a direct path to Legendary Armor? (Easy-mode meaning a similar experience to normal-mode, but with more forgiving mechanics)

I’ve been asked, and answered this question dozens of times. The answer is “YES, I would be interested in an easy mode raid that provides NO path to Legendary armor.” I would consider that, in and of itself, to be a positive step forward, and I would play it at minimum once through.

If it also provided fair non-raid rewards, like dungeons and world bosses and other content provides, so that “farming it” is a rewarding experience, then I would likely do it repeatedly.

However, this would not stop me seeking alternative access to Envoy armor without having to do the hard mode raids, so if they insisted that they were never going to add this to the easy mode, then I would be more focused towards having them open up access elsewhere, like with Legendary Precursors, or reward tracks, or something along those lines.

I have two distinct goals here. Achieving either of them would be a step forward from having neither achieved, and I would consider that an improvement, but I would still continue to push for both to eventually be achieved, and I just find that achieving them together seems to be the simplest overall solution.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Anchoku.8142

Anchoku.8142

What If raid composition had a yolo mode and was determined by automated matching like PvP solo queue? Raid experience could be measured by account and profession. Composition could follow a bell curve ensuring one highly experienced player for each new raider.

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Sarrs.4831

Sarrs.4831

What If raid composition had a yolo mode and was determined by automated matching like PvP solo queue? Raid experience could be measured by account and profession. Composition could follow a bell curve ensuring one highly experienced player for each new raider.

no
no
no
nononono

automated matchmaking kills the social element of the game & is a pandora’s box that should never be opened

Nalhadia – Kaineng

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

no
no
no
nononono

automated matchmaking kills the social element of the game & is a pandora’s box that should never be opened

In many ways, removing raiding from social equations might actually improve that part of the game. There’s just too much toxicity tied to that element.

(in my 20 years of multiplayer RPG gaming, all the guilds i was in – and i was in many – eventually fell apart due to causes that were rooted in raiding, or its pre-wow equivalent. I don’t remember any other factor that would be even half as disruptive as this one)

Unfortunately, in GW2 this pandora box has already been opened.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Vinceman.4572

Vinceman.4572

During dungeon peak time, toxicity was way higher than nowadays, more than twice as high.

Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.

A Suggestion For Raids

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

no
no
no
nononono

automated matchmaking kills the social element of the game & is a pandora’s box that should never be opened

In many ways, removing raiding from social equations might actually improve that part of the game. There’s just too much toxicity tied to that element.

(in my 20 years of multiplayer RPG gaming, all the guilds i was in – and i was in many – eventually fell apart due to causes that were rooted in raiding, or its pre-wow equivalent. I don’t remember any other factor that would be even half as disruptive as this one)

Unfortunately, in GW2 this pandora box has already been opened.

Are you sure they weren’t rooted in greed and ego ?

Pretty sure they come down to that and not the raid itself as that is harmless. Peoples unfettered desires however are always toxic.