A Suggestion For Raids
It is worth nothing that, since Saturday (of a holiday weekend in the states), there have been at least 4 new threads – by what appears to be at least 4 separate people who have not been part of the discussion to date – appear across the various subforums expressing concern about the accessibility of raiding, the disparity between professions/builds in raids and the negative impacts those elements are having on the game.
And, in almost every thread, the same 2-3 people advocating against tiered difficulty are doing everything they can to shut the conversation down. It is telling that, in the face of that kind of criticism, we still see so many expressing this concern.
Without a doubt, these kinds of concerns are going to continue to crop up and will most likely only become more prevalent (both in game and on the forums) – especially as new raids are introduced to the game and the gap between experienced and beginner raiders grows wider and wider.
People aren’t whining. They aren’t making things up. There is a legitimate desire for tiered difficulty in the game.
I mean, as long as we can point to useless statistics, there was also a raid tournament this weekend, which achieved several thousand views.
And let’s differentiate between “whining” and “how do I get into raids.”
Some people come seeking legitimate advice on how to find groups. Others whine because a group booted them from running an off meta build.
And, frankly, it’s easy to get into raids if you want to.
- I see training runs on the lfg every day
- Major guilds host training runs, usually in Sunday.
- Not all groups require LI.
It’s also sickening what’s being suggested here. Despite a new fractal and three new living story chapters, the easy moders still want more. They want easy modes out of raid development. They want living world to continue on schedule.
I thought this was the season of thanks, not greed.
@Blaeys
You know that this topic about accessibility is polluted by people winning about wanting raids rewards in easy mode…i would like having a conversation here, but some people have their own agenda and don’t care at all about raid accessibility, as long as they can have raid rewards..
@Absurdo is right about accessibility, even if I think the fact that some professions are not wanting now ( mostly in pug) doesn’t help either going into raids.
@Blaeys
You know that this topic about accessibility is polluted by people winning about wanting raids rewards in easy mode…i would like having a conversation here, but some people have their own agenda and don’t care at all about raid accessibility, as long as they can have raid rewards..@Absurdo is right about accessibility, even if I think the fact that some professions are not wanting now ( mostly in pug) doesn’t help either going into raids.
I agree that the reward conversation is a non starter. This needs to be about accessibility. Greater effort/difficulty should most definitely garner greater rewards. That is something Anet has always stuck to since the very beginning (story vs explorable dungeon rewards, achievement rewards such as Liadri title, special mini in Aetherpath, etc). There is no basis for people to expect anything different with raids (and, if it were up to me – prestigious rewards throughout the game would be MUCH harder to get).
The problem with Absurdo’s responses (and the reason I try not to respond to him when possible) is that he (and a few others – on multiple sides of the conversation) insists on lumping everyone into two big piles and making this a SIDE A vs SIDE B discussion, when their are definitely more than two sides. Then, he (and others) takes it too far by hurling insults and names at the people he disagrees with (his “sickening” comment above is a good example – he even once said a guild was “bad” because they didn’t offer players a raiding experience – and these are 2 of many examples of what I consider unproductive conversations).
You (Hyperion) and I, for instance, agree on some things and disagree on others – but, most importantly, we understand that the answer isn’t to shut the conversation down – it’s to debate civilly and respect others even as we disagree.
My point in my response earlier this morning was to illustrate that, no matter what, this topic isn’t going away anytime soon. I even respect – and agree with him – that the raid tournament was well received – but it really doesn’t have anything to do with the point I was trying to make. I definitely do not think challenge should be removed from raiding in any way whatsoever (in fact, more is needed). The accessibility discussion I want to have is solely about adding to the raiding experience – not taking away from it.
Like it or not, the conversation about adding greater accessibility will naturally reoccur – both in game and on the forums – as people become more disillusioned with the current raid model in GW2. There has to be a compromise – a solution that works for a greater number of players. That is why this conversation is important – and why we need to – as a general rule – disregard (even outright ignore in some cases) the “us vs them” posts that continually crop up throughout these discussions.
(edited by Blaeys.3102)
@Blaeys
You know that this topic about accessibility is polluted by people winning about wanting raids rewards in easy mode…i would like having a conversation here, but some people have their own agenda and don’t care at all about raid accessibility, as long as they can have raid rewards..@Absurdo is right about accessibility, even if I think the fact that some professions are not wanting now ( mostly in pug) doesn’t help either going into raids.
I agree that the reward conversation is a non starter. This needs to be about accessibility. Greater effort/difficulty should most definitely garner greater rewards. That is something Anet has always stuck to since the very beginning (story vs explorable dungeon rewards, achievement rewards such as Liadri title, special mini in Aetherpath, etc). There is no basis for people to expect anything different with raids (and, if it were up to me – prestigious rewards throughout the game would be MUCH harder to get).
The problem with Absurdo’s responses (and the reason I try not to respond to him when possible) is that he (and a few others – on multiple sides of the conversation) insists on lumping everyone into two big piles and making this a SIDE A vs SIDE B discussion, when their are definitely more than two sides. Then, he (and others) takes it too far by hurling insults and names at the people he disagrees with (his “sickening” comment above is a good example – he even once said a guild was “bad” because they didn’t offer players a raiding experience – and these are 2 of many examples of what I consider unproductive conversations).
You (Hyperion) and I, for instance, agree on some things and disagree on others – but, most importantly, we understand that the answer isn’t to shut the conversation down – it’s to debate civilly and respect others even as we disagree.
My point in my response earlier this morning was to illustrate that, no matter what, this topic isn’t going away anytime soon. I even respect – and agree with him – that the raid tournament was well received – but it really doesn’t have anything to do with the point I was trying to make. I definitely do not think challenge should be removed from raiding in any way whatsoever (in fact, more is needed). The accessibility discussion I want to have is solely about adding to the raiding experience – not taking away from it.
Like it or not, the conversation about adding greater accessibility will naturally reoccur – both in game and on the forums – as people become more disillusioned with the current raid model in GW2. There has to be a compromise – a solution that works for a greater number of players. That is why this conversation is important – and why we need to – as a general rule – disregard (even outright ignore in some cases) the “us vs them” posts that continually crop up throughout these discussions.
Hmm … wow.
So I’ll just note that:
- I’m responding to suggestions actually put forth in this thread.
- I put forth constructive solutions for people looking to get into raids.
Seems counter productive to address anything else. I’m also unaware of any new input from anything in this thread in a long while. I’m happy to be wrong on this count.
Like it or not, the conversation about adding greater accessibility will naturally reoccur – both in game and on the forums – as people become more disillusioned with the current raid model in GW2.
Well the devs said they are having internal talks about raid accessibility so it’s obviously something they are working on. The thing is, being so stack on raid tiers is missing the big picture, there are a LOT of suggestions even on this thread on how to make raids more accessible and they are all being swept away by the “discussion” about tiers.
The devs themselves said that tiers aren’t happening, so discussing other ways of increasing raid accessibility is a much more productive discussion.
Like it or not, the conversation about adding greater accessibility will naturally reoccur – both in game and on the forums – as people become more disillusioned with the current raid model in GW2.
Well the devs said they are having internal talks about raid accessibility so it’s obviously something they are working on. The thing is, being so stack on raid tiers is missing the big picture, there are a LOT of suggestions even on this thread on how to make raids more accessible and they are all being swept away by the “discussion” about tiers.
The devs themselves said that tiers aren’t happening, so discussing other ways of increasing raid accessibility is a much more productive discussion.
I agree that we probably do get caught up on the word “tiers” and its implications.
One thing that developers did talk about – in the recent AMA – was adding challenge motes to raids to offer a deeper experience – with potential accompanying rewards. I do think that same mechanic (which they are open to using) could be a fairly elegant solution across the board. Challenge motes to up difficulty and “training” or “story” motes to address accessibility.
And I agree accessibility is a bigger discussion than just tiers. Anything we can do to realistically make raids more accessible and open to more players – especially as it concerns alleviating the huge disparity between builds/professions/playstyles – is a welcome topic imo. Again, this isn’t a black and white topic (there really is no need for the “us vs them” discussion at all). It is nuanced – with many different perspectives and points for discussion.
Hmm … wow.
So I’ll just note that:
- I’m responding to suggestions actually put forth in this thread.
- I put forth constructive solutions for people looking to get into raids.Seems counter productive to address anything else. I’m also unaware of any new input from anything in this thread in a long while. I’m happy to be wrong on this count.
Looking back at my comments, I worry that they may have been a little more critical of you personally than I intended. I think the “sickening” comment stepped over a line for me.
What I want to get across – to many people – is that we aren’t mortal enemies. We are just people who happen to disagree on a few points (and probably agree on others). Let’s (all – me included) stop trying to make this an “us vs them” discussion. Those kind of conversations don’t go anywhere productive.
Disagree and debate the points being made (which you can do, and have done, eloquently at times) and not with people making them (or groups of people). That is when people tune out, threads get closed and long standing arguments ensue.
(edited by Blaeys.3102)
I stand on the firm point of view that hard content should not be used to gate something and a game mode must be able to stand on it´s own without incentive or is bound to fall.
WvW is a prime example for that. Rewards were and are pathetic when you were a scout or a defender, but it was something I loved to do because it felt satisfying and I often paid gold for upgrades, something only a few people ever acknowledged.
I went into raids for the first time and asked my guild mates to look for a replacement for me after an hour. It just didn´t click and felt boring and repetive.
The ascended backpiece was the first piece of equipment that really brought anger for the fractal people. It was only available there so if you liked it or not, you were forced to do fractals if you wanted it. Luckily for me I liked fractals, but I had the fullest sympathy for everyone who did not like it and was dragged into them kicking and screaming so to say.
My suggestion would be to open up legendary armor for open world pve so that everyone that likes to do raids would do them for the thrill and not for the legendary armor. Gold, titles, skins, AP not a problem. A title tells everyone how special you are when you have defeated all the raid mobs as good as your armor does, there is no need to deny the less skilled, fortunate or social players of convenience.
So either no effect or very little effect to Raid Accessibility itself, only less hurt feelings.
No. Not very much effect to Current Raid Accessibility. Not to the Raid Accessibility in general. Those are not the same things.
Notice for example, that something mentioned by the devs as an option they’re considering (the 5-man instancing), would also do nothing for the current raids, and yet it is considered to be a possible solution for raid accessibility.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
Notice for example, that something mentioned by the devs as an option they’re considering (the 5-man instancing), would also do nothing for the current raids, and yet it is considered to be a possible solution for raid accessibility.
Where is the quote where dev mentionned that 5-man instance is a possibility for raid? I’m interested (i might have missed some quotes )
Notice for example, that something mentioned by the devs as an option they’re considering (the 5-man instancing), would also do nothing for the current raids, and yet it is considered to be a possible solution for raid accessibility.
Where is the quote where dev mentionned that 5-man instance is a possibility for raid? I’m interested (i might have missed some quotes )
There’s no quote. It’s a misunderstanding on a dev goal to have 5-person fractal groups have an easier time finding five more players.
This comes up a lot so I’m going to jump in quickly since it’s a new post.
Tier systems for Raids come up a lot as a result of what Fractals did. I worked on the original Fractals team and a tiered system with increased difficulty scaling was always part of the original plan for that team. It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game.
Accessibility in terms of difficulty is something we talk a lot about internally. We’ve made efforts to help players get in by delivering entry level encounters that ease you into the content (STK) and you’ll see more of that in the next release. You’ll still see encounters that live up to previous raid expectations for mid tier and final bosses. And if you think Matthias is a chump then we have something for you as well.
Accessibility in terms of “Hey, my 5 man Fractal group wants to try raids, but we can’t find 5 other players!” is also something we talk about. It’s just a much more difficult problem to solve.
Notice for example, that something mentioned by the devs as an option they’re considering (the 5-man instancing), would also do nothing for the current raids, and yet it is considered to be a possible solution for raid accessibility.
Where is the quote where dev mentionned that 5-man instance is a possibility for raid? I’m interested (i might have missed some quotes )
There’s no quote. It’s a misunderstanding on a dev goal to have 5-person fractal groups have an easier time finding five more players.
This comes up a lot so I’m going to jump in quickly since it’s a new post.
Tier systems for Raids come up a lot as a result of what Fractals did. I worked on the original Fractals team and a tiered system with increased difficulty scaling was always part of the original plan for that team. It was never a plan for Raids. They are, and should remain, the most difficult content in the game.
Accessibility in terms of difficulty is something we talk a lot about internally. We’ve made efforts to help players get in by delivering entry level encounters that ease you into the content (STK) and you’ll see more of that in the next release. You’ll still see encounters that live up to previous raid expectations for mid tier and final bosses. And if you think Matthias is a chump then we have something for you as well.
Accessibility in terms of “Hey, my 5 man Fractal group wants to try raids, but we can’t find 5 other players!” is also something we talk about. It’s just a much more difficult problem to solve.
ok, i’m not surprised of the misunderstanding ^^ dev quote was clear i thought
Again…..WROOONG. No game will ever grow if they never put incentives( i.e. rewards) for players to participate in the different contents they develop.
Again, you can lead a horse to water, but you shouldn’t hold his head under until he drinks. They can offer unique incentives to get players to show up at new content and give it a shot, but these rewards should be “door busters,” something you can get relatively quickly. Anything that takes hours of time or extreme levels of skill to earn, you should be able to get through multiple paths so that you can enjoy the experience. Yes, they want to get the dedicated PvE player to give PvP a shot, but if that player does give PvP a fair shot and decides that it’s definitely not for him, then they have no interest in keeping him there anyway. He should be allowed to move to a part of the game that he enjoys, without being locked out of any cool rewards.
If people don’t like the prospect of raiding because they know they don’t enjoy it then they simply don’t play the content. It is as simple as that.
No, it’s not as simple as that, and never can be so long as “don’t play the content” means “don’t get to experience that story at all,” and “never get that reward, even if you’d really enjoy it.” You can’t eat your cake and have it too, you can’t have BOTH reclusive content and rewards tied to a gameplay mechanic AND claim that people can freely choose to “just not do it if they don’t like it.” The two concepts are mutually exclusive.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
On the topic of Raid Accessibility, how is multiple modes of raids going to increase accessibility? When I say Accessibility, I mean for the CURRENT Raids, so how is an easy mode version going to increase accessibility for the normal version?
One, it is not particularly important that it raise accessibility to the current raids. The point is that people who want to “do some raiding” and have some difficulty with the current set-up, would have an alternative that they are more comfortable with. Easier raids would, themselves, be more accessible, and that’s a plenty worthwhile goal in and of itself.
Second, with that said, having easier versions of the raids would help to ease people into the harder ones, and after players master the techniques from the easier ones, they would have an easier time getting into the harder ones, so that’s how it would increase accessibility for the harder.
I agree with Torolan here, those asking for an easier mode for Raids won’t suddenly like the content itself.
If they are asking for an easier raid, they will enjoy an easier raid. Otherwise why would they be asking? I’ve explained why I will never enjoy the raids as they currently are, I do not enjoy failure, I do not consider it a “learning experience,” and will never play a mode where I’m expected to fail for hours on end before eventually succeeding. But an easier raid that offers similar gameplay with lower risk of total collapse, that I would enjoy, and would play. And that’s the point, adding new content that people would play, mostly using available assets.
So it won’t do much (if at all) to help with Raid Accessibility, players will do it once, or twice, see the story/content and move on.
That really depends on the reward structure. If it’s the often insisted “it should offer NO loot, because I hate the idea of easy mode raids and hate the people who want them,” then yeah, people would do them once or twice and move on, and it would never be worth making.
I’m on the record as saying that full raid rewards, at a drastically reduced quantity, would be a fair reward system for all involved, and that’s what I favor, and if they were to offer that, plenty of people would play it as often as the rewards were provided.
But if that’s entirely off the table, I think the minimum reward that they could provide would be something comparable to dungeons of equivalent length and difficulty. You’d get maybe some rares and exotics, some gold, some materials, whatever, enough that people who run dungeons or Fractals today would look at the payout of the easy raid, look at the difficulty and likely time investment of running it, and go “yeah, that seems fair,” and work it into their daily or weekly rotation as something to do with their time.
And further, how is allowing the raid rewards to be acquired from other types of content going to help with Raid Accessibility? Wouldn’t that reduce Raid Accessibility?
If you mean “currently there are people playing raids today who are only doing so because they are chasing rewards, and would really rather be doing something else?” Then yeah, those players would likely move on, and that would make it harder to find a hard mode raid group, but guess what? Those players do not belong to you. They do not owe your their time, they do not owe it to you to make it easier for you to find a raid group. If they’d rather be doing something other than raiding, then they SHOULD be doing something other than raiding. That’s good for them, and it’s good for ANet, since a happy player is one less likely to burn out. The only people who should be raiding are those players that enjoy doing it, and if you want players who don’t want to be there, simply because it would make your life easier, then that would make you a horrible person. I think we all hope to be better than that.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
One, it is not particularly important that it raise accessibility to the current raids.
Nah increasing the accessibility of the current one is the higher priority and fortunately that’s what the devs themselves said they are doing. It’s content that already exist and making it more accessible is always important. Most of the threads starting around here are about people who can’t even join Raids, and much less about wanting something new, if they can’t even join, they get a fake idea about Raids. Once more people are “allowed” to join then we might see a different picture.
In other words, making sure those who WANT to Raid but can’t Raid, can access the Raid, is higher priority than making sure those who DON’T WANT to Raid, can Raid.
If you mean “currently there are people playing raids today who are only doing so because they are chasing rewards, and would really rather be doing something else?”
No I mean it as “it will have no effect on raid accessibility whatsoever”, I didn’t say it will reduce it, but it won’t increase it in any way.
(edited by maddoctor.2738)
No I mean it as “it will have no effect on raid accessibility whatsoever”, I didn’t say it will reduce it, but it won’t increase it in any way.
I actually directly quoted you, sir. You said “And further, how is allowing the raid rewards to be acquired from other types of content going to help with Raid Accessibility? *Wouldn’t that reduce Raid Accessibility?”*
So what is your answer then? Do you believe that players should be raiding even if they don’t enjoy it, solely because they want the rewards? Why do you believe you are entitled to their help in filling out your raid party?
People have called me “entitled” because I feel like I should have more convenient access to certain rewards in the game, but at least I’m only talking about polygons and pixels. You guys seem to think that you’re entitled to actual human beings when they would make your own life more convenient.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Do you believe that players should be raiding even if they don’t enjoy it, solely because they want the rewards? Why do you believe you are entitled to their help in filling out your raid party?
If they do not enjoy raiding then they shouldn’t be raiding, and they won’t get the rewards. Why is that even a question?
Do you believe that players should be raiding even if they don’t enjoy it, solely because they want the rewards? Why do you believe you are entitled to their help in filling out your raid party?
If they do not enjoy raiding then they shouldn’t be raiding, and they won’t get the rewards. Why is that even a question?
Because of that “and” in your sentence.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Because of that “and” in your sentence.
Exactly.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
From a quick search I only found Raid teaching runs in EU, so I was wondering if there are things like this in NA:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/EU-Training-raid/first
I was pocking at the LFG tool and didn’t find any 100+ Li groups posted, there were 5 groups when I checked yesterday, 2 of them were 0 Li training runs, 2 of them had a Li requirement of 10-20, and 1 was an raid instance selling entry. Groups filled quickly and more groups appeared over time.
It appears to me that the EU raiding community has more training runs, and is more accepting than the one in NA. Is that the case? And if it is, how do we fix that?
(edited by maddoctor.2738)
Do you believe that players should be raiding even if they don’t enjoy it, solely because they want the rewards? Why do you believe you are entitled to their help in filling out your raid party?
If they do not enjoy raiding then they shouldn’t be raiding, and they won’t get the rewards. Why is that even a question?
Because of that “and” in your sentence.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Instanced-Raids-Confirmed-merged/first
and
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Raids-excludes-players-and-it-s-ok/first
55 pages of awesome. The raid rewards and exclusivity topic has been discussed to death already. You should find a new hobby (and topic)
None of that changes the stance you have taken, that other people belong to you, and exist to make it easier for you to find raid groups, regardless of what would make them happy or be healthy for the game.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
None of that changes the stance you have taken, that other people belong to you, and exist to make it easier for you to find raid groups, regardless of what would make them happy or be healthy for the game.
That’s not my stance at all and in reality it is the exact opposite of what you are saying.
The commanders doing the training runs like here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/EU-Training-raid/first
aren’t in need of players so they can run the Raid, they run them with their static groups on Monday, then make time from their own schedule during the week to take others for the ride. You have it backwards
That’s not my stance at all and in reality it is the exact opposite of what you are saying.
“And further, how is allowing the raid rewards to be acquired from other types of content going to help with Raid Accessibility? Wouldn’t that reduce Raid Accessibility?”
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
That’s not my stance at all and in reality it is the exact opposite of what you are saying.
“And further, how is allowing the raid rewards to be acquired from other types of content going to help with Raid Accessibility? Wouldn’t that reduce Raid Accessibility?”
The question still stands, how is adding the same rewards on other types of content going to increase raid accessibility? I don’t see how that will be done in any way or form. If you don’t like the reduced accessibility part make “no effect on raid accessibility”. Is it better now?
The question still stands, how is adding the same rewards on other types of content going to increase raid accessibility? I don’t see how that will be done in any way or form. If you don’t like the reduced accessibility part make “no effect on raid accessibility”. Is it better now?
No, we’re not talking about that now. We’re talking about how you consider other people to be more important as fodder to make LFG easier for you than you value their lives as human beings. You acknowledge that if they were genuinely given a fair option in the process, many of them would opt out of raiding, and yet you’re comfortable with that. Justify that position and then we can get back to discussing accessibility.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
The question still stands, how is adding the same rewards on other types of content going to increase raid accessibility? I don’t see how that will be done in any way or form. If you don’t like the reduced accessibility part make “no effect on raid accessibility”. Is it better now?
No, we’re not talking about that now. We’re talking about how you consider other people to be more important as fodder to make LFG easier for you than you value their lives as human beings. You acknowledge that if they were genuinely given a fair option in the process, many of them would opt out of raiding, and yet you’re comfortable with that. Justify that position and then we can get back to discussing accessibility.
No that’s not what we are talking about, I do not consider people as fodder to make LFG easier for me nor I “do not value them as human beings”, that’s something YOU came up with. So answer the actual question, how is adding new methods of acquisition going to increase raid accessibility? Or you simply can’t because it simply won’t do that?
And really stop accusing/insulting people now that you don’t have anything else to say.
Again…..WROOONG. No game will ever grow if they never put incentives( i.e. rewards) for players to participate in the different contents they develop.
Again, you can lead a horse to water, but you shouldn’t hold his head under until he drinks. They can offer unique incentives to get players to show up at new content and give it a shot, but these rewards should be “door busters,” something you can get relatively quickly. Anything that takes hours of time or extreme levels of skill to earn, you should be able to get through multiple paths so that you can enjoy the experience. Yes, they want to get the dedicated PvE player to give PvP a shot, but if that player does give PvP a fair shot and decides that it’s definitely not for him, then they have no interest in keeping him there anyway. He should be allowed to move to a part of the game that he enjoys, without being locked out of any cool rewards.
If people don’t like the prospect of raiding because they know they don’t enjoy it then they simply don’t play the content. It is as simple as that.
No, it’s not as simple as that, and never can be so long as “don’t play the content” means “don’t get to experience that story at all,” and “never get that reward, even if you’d really enjoy it.” You can’t eat your cake and have it too, you can’t have BOTH reclusive content and rewards tied to a gameplay mechanic AND claim that people can freely choose to “just not do it if they don’t like it.” The two concepts are mutually exclusive.
Mate, that is only your opinion….In fact many players already do that (you know the fact that " He should be allowed to move to a part of the game that he enjoys without being locked out any cool rewards") since rewards locked behind a content already exist since the beginning of the game. What you can’t accept is that some content of your preferred game type has rewards that you can’t acquire because you found out that you can’t complete the content. I really don’t see how any Anet can make sure that everyone has access to everything by taking into account all preferences and all levels of exeperience of all players without trivializing their content so much to the point that no one will care about the content. /thread play the content you can complete and get the cool rewards attached to that particular content. I do this and frankly I am having a lot more fun than in core tyria
No that’s not what we are talking about, I do not consider people as fodder to make LFG easier for me nor I “do not value them as human beings”, that’s something YOU came up with.
Then why do you believe that adding easier raids might "reduce Raid Accessibility,” if not for the fact that some people would choose to play easier raids instead of the current ones, if given the opportunity?
I answered your other question several posts ago, but you ignored my answers, and I’m more interested in following this discussion because it’s very illuminating about the raider psychology here.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
I answered your other question several posts ago, but you ignored my answers, and I’m more interested in following this discussion because it’s very illuminating about the raider psychology here.
I’m still waiting for an answer, how is adding more acquisition options going to increase the raid accessibility?
“What you can’t accept is that some content of your preferred game type has rewards that you can’t acquire because you found out that you can’t complete the content. "
BAM!.. Mic drop…goodnight.
Mate, that is only your opinion….In fact many players already do that (you know the fact that " He should be allowed to move to a part of the game that he enjoys without being locked out any cool rewards") since rewards locked behind a content already exist since the beginning of the game.
Just because something exists in the game doesn’t mean that it’s the best way to go. My point is that players shouldn’t have to play content that they don’t enjoy just because they want a specific reward OR abandon a reward they want because the content it’s locked behind is too annoying to stand. Nobody benefits from forcing that choice on anyone.
I really don’t see how any Anet can make sure that everyone has access to everything by taking into account all preferences and all levels of exeperience of all players without trivializing their content so much to the point that no one will care about the content.
It doesn’t have to take into account every possible player, just every player of THEIR game. If a player can already actively complete most content in the game, then that’s a fair baseline right there. If a player can complete no real content in the game, then obviously the game is just not for him and he should find something else, but if a player can complete most of the available content, then clearly the game as a whole is within his wheelhouse, and so any activity within it should be able to be compared to any other.
Just as different parts of the game offer amounts of loot relative to the challenge/effort required to complete them, this standard could be applied to ANY item. and no, it would not be perfect, because nothing is, but the current system isn’t perfect either, so “perfect” is not on the table.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
I’m still waiting for an answer, how is adding more acquisition options going to increase the raid accessibility?
I answered your other question several posts ago, but you ignored my answers, and I’m more interested in following this discussion because it’s very illuminating about the raider psychology here.
Now you answer mine, why do you believe that adding easier raids might "reduce Raid Accessibility,” if not for the fact that some people would choose to play easier raids instead of the current ones, if given the opportunity?
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
I answered your other question several posts ago, but you ignored my answers
Where is it?
And now that you added this part it gets better:
Just because something exists in the game doesn’t mean that it’s the best way to go. My point is that players shouldn’t have to play content that they don’t enjoy just because they want a specific reward OR abandon a reward they want because the content it’s locked behind is too annoying to stand. Nobody benefits from forcing that choice on anyone.
How is adding the legendary armor in a pvp/wvw reward track going to help with raid accessibility? Or adding it on dungeon vendors for dungeon tokens, or adding it for any other thing you can come up with.
Now you answer mine, why do you believe that adding easier raids might "reduce Raid Accessibility,” if not for the fact that some people would choose to play easier raids instead of the current ones, if given the opportunity?
It’s called path of least resistance, you can look it up.
I answered your other question several posts ago, but you ignored my answers
Where is it?
And now that you added this part it gets better:
Just because something exists in the game doesn’t mean that it’s the best way to go. My point is that players shouldn’t have to play content that they don’t enjoy just because they want a specific reward OR abandon a reward they want because the content it’s locked behind is too annoying to stand. Nobody benefits from forcing that choice on anyone.
How is adding the legendary armor in a pvp/wvw reward track going to help with raid accessibility? Or adding it on dungeon vendors for dungeon tokens, or adding it for any other thing you can come up with.
Now you answer mine, why do you believe that adding easier raids might "reduce Raid Accessibility,” if not for the fact that some people would choose to play easier raids instead of the current ones, if given the opportunity?
It’s called path of least resistance, you can look it up.
And when everyone can choose the path of least resistance, all complainers will go up in arms to forums, screaming “there is no content, there is a lack on rewards, there is no endgame, they need to hire more developers to add more rewards, blablabla….”
Ohoni.6057:
I answered your other question several posts ago, but you ignored my answers
Where is it?
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/A-Suggestion-For-Raids/6415323
How is adding the legendary armor in a pvp/wvw reward track going to help with raid accessibility?
It’s not, but raid accessibility is not the most important thing in the game, player enjoyment is. If a player would more enjoy earning Legendary Armor through PvP or WvW than through raiding, then that’s where he should be earning it, and that is completely irrelevant to raid accessibility.
Now you answer mine, why do you believe that adding easier raids might "reduce Raid Accessibility,” if not for the fact that some people would choose to play easier raids instead of the current ones, if given the opportunity?
It’s called path of least resistance, you can look it up.
So you agree that if players were given more options, some would choose to not raid rather than to raid. And yet you seem to be fine with those other options not existing.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Mate, that is only your opinion….In fact many players already do that (you know the fact that " He should be allowed to move to a part of the game that he enjoys without being locked out any cool rewards") since rewards locked behind a content already exist since the beginning of the game.
Just because something exists in the game doesn’t mean that it’s the best way to go. My point is that players shouldn’t have to play content that they don’t enjoy just because they want a specific reward OR abandon a reward they want because the content it’s locked behind is too annoying to stand. Nobody benefits from forcing that choice on anyone.
I really don’t see how any Anet can make sure that everyone has access to everything by taking into account all preferences and all levels of exeperience of all players without trivializing their content so much to the point that no one will care about the content.
It doesn’t have to take into account every possible player, just every player of THEIR game. If a player can already actively complete most content in the game, then that’s a fair baseline right there. If a player can complete no real content in the game, then obviously the game is just not for him and he should find something else, but if a player can complete most of the available content, then clearly the game as a whole is within his wheelhouse, and so any activity within it should be able to be compared to any other.
Just as different parts of the game offer amounts of loot relative to the challenge/effort required to complete them, this standard could be applied to ANY item. and no, it would not be perfect, because nothing is, but the current system isn’t perfect either, so “perfect” is not on the table.
Then why change the system if you provide a “solution” that is not better than what we currently have ?
And when everyone can choose the path of least resistance, all complainers will go up in arms to forums, screaming “there is no content, there is a lack on rewards, there is no endgame, they need to hire more developers to add more rewards, blablabla….”
No. Nothing would change for the worse for most players. They can’t get Legendary Armor now because it’s locked behind content that won’t do, this would allow them to do it. Having items that they cannot reasonable progress toward is of no more value than already owning the item, and at least already owning the item gives you a toy to play with.
Nobody is talking about just handing anything out. The alternative paths should be designed to take up MORE of the player’s time than earning them through whatever the existing means are, the existing methods should ALWAYS be the shortest possible path. So if anything, this would add MORE player investment than the current options, because any goals they’ve previously abandoned as being eternally out of reach, they would now have a long and time consuming path towards actually achieving it.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Then why change the system if you provide a “solution” that is not better than what we currently have ?
You wouldn’t, but instead I present a system that’s better than what we already have, which is why they should implement it.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Then why change the system if you provide a “solution” that is not better than what we currently have ?
You wouldn’t, but instead I present a system that’s better than what we already have, which is why they should implement it.
Your system has literally been discussed for over a year why it is not a better system. It is never a good thing to take away incentives from doing any content by placing them in an easier method to acquire them.
Can you stop bringing up that ridiculous and potentially game-destroying idea?
Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
It is never a good thing to take away incentives from doing any content by placing them in an easier method to acquire them.
No, it often is a good thing, when those incentives would otherwise lead a player to do something he does not enjoy. You don’t like that, but it does not stop it from being true nonetheless.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
It’s not, but raid accessibility is not the most important thing in the game.
It IS the most important thing for a thread which is about that very topic…
As for your answer, I did provide a response to it and didn’t ignore it.
To re-type it:
In other words, making sure those who WANT to Raid but can’t Raid, can access the Raid, is higher priority than making sure those who DON’T WANT to Raid, can Raid.
So you agree that if players were given more options, some would choose to not raid rather than to raid. And yet you seem to be fine with those other options not existing.
I’m fine with those other options not existing. As an example, now the best path to gold is AB multi loot, before that it was SW chest farm, I’d be fine with neither ever existing. We’ve all seen what the path of least resistance can do, enjoyment has absolutely nothing to do with it, it’s all about getting something the easy way.
Then why change the system if you provide a “solution” that is not better than what we currently have ?
You wouldn’t, but instead I present a system that’s better than what we already have, which is why they should implement it.
Your system has literally been discussed for over a year why it is not a better system. It is never a good thing to take away incentives from doing any content by placing them in an easier method to acquire them.
Can you stop bringing up that ridiculous and potentially game-destroying idea?
Yes becouse anet dont want people to play their game for longer peroids of time thats bad buisness right?
As an example 3 li a week (33% of what you can get now right for the 3 wings?)for easy mode thats 50 weeks close a year for the precursor armor casuals but no definately dont want that.
And when everyone can choose the path of least resistance, all complainers will go up in arms to forums, screaming “there is no content, there is a lack on rewards, there is no endgame, they need to hire more developers to add more rewards, blablabla….”
No. Nothing would change for the worse for most players. They can’t get Legendary Armor now because it’s locked behind content that won’t do, this would allow them to do it. Having items that they cannot reasonable progress toward is of no more value than already owning the item, and at least already owning the item gives you a toy to play with.
Nobody is talking about just handing anything out. The alternative paths should be designed to take up MORE of the player’s time than earning them through whatever the existing means are, the existing methods should ALWAYS be the shortest possible path. So if anything, this would add MORE player investment than the current options, because any goals they’ve previously abandoned as being eternally out of reach, they would now have a long and time consuming path towards actually achieving it.
Hmm you are talking about a population of players that are mostly casual. I tell you what is going to happen if you extend the farming too much: nobody would ever complete it because most of them will just look at the release of other items dropped in the game and decide to go for these items because in the end a legendary armor is just another skin to acquire in regard to what the game is about. Worst case of scenario: they will just take a look at completing the content with other newbies and other experienced runners at their casual pace of gaming. And why would they act like that: because the game has never forced anyone to rush the content and get a gear as fast as possible. Anyway Anet also needs to also be very cautious about what ingredients and currencies need to be farmed just to make sure that it doesn’t break the balance of the economy….I really don’t see them delaying other content just to make sure that a very optional armor that is no way required needs to be dropped in game to everyone at the expense of breaking the economy in the game.
It IS the most important thing for a thread which is about that very topic…
Everything is holistic to the game. You cannot consider one feature in isolation, you have to consider it about the game as a whole. If I were to start a thread about making Envoy Armor available from World Completion on the Living World board, and someone came in arguing that this shouldn’t be done because they should remain exclusive to raids, do you believe it would be fair for me to attempt to silence that line of thinking because “we aren’t talking about raids in this thread?”
If you talk about one system, you also have to be open to discussing how that system impacts those around it. If we’re going to be discussing how to make raids available, we also need to discuss if raids should be more available, and why people want them to be more available. Perhaps people’s ultimate goals could be met through other means.
I’m fine with those other options not existing. As an example, now the best path to gold is AB multi loot, before that it was SW chest farm, I’d be fine with neither ever existing. We’ve all seen what the path of least resistance can do, enjoyment has absolutely nothing to do with it, it’s all about getting something the easy way.
But the path of least resistance would be raiding, these would be alternatives which would take longer.
Hmm you are talking about a population of players that are mostly casual. I tell you what is going to happen if you extend the farming too much: nobody would ever complete it because most of them will just look at the release of other items dropped in the game and decide to go for these items because in the end a legendary armor is just another skin to acquire in regard to what the game is about.
Fair enough. If they spend six months working towards the Envoy armor and then decide to give up to go after some other shiny, that’s their choice and it hurts no one, but that would mean that it kept them occupied for those six months while they were still on the chase, which is better than nothing, and at least some people would stick with it and get the skins they want.
Anyway Anet also needs to also be very cautious about what ingredients and currencies need to be farmed just to make sure that it doesn’t break the balance of the economy
The gold economy is already a fiasco, but I would not recommend adding any tradable commodities to the alternative earning methods. It should all be from achievements and account bound items.
I really don’t see them delaying other content just to make sure that a very optional armor that is no way required needs to be dropped in game to everyone at the expense of breaking the economy in the game.
Neither do I, but none of that relates to what we were discussing.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
If I were to start a thread about making Envoy Armor available from World Completion on the Living World board, and someone came in arguing that this shouldn’t be done because they should remain exclusive to raids, do you believe it would be fair for me to attempt to silence that line of thinking because “we aren’t talking about raids in this thread?”
That topic would be too narrow. If you made a thread about getting rewards (in general), maybe in general chat, from multiple types of content then it would be really hard to go off topic. And from what I understand that’s your real problem and not the Envoy armor alone.
Before discussing if Envoy Armor should get an alternative method of acquisition, wouldn’t it better if the topic was about getting everything through alternative methods of acquisition? Otherwise to anyone jumping in the thread, it looks like you want to get Envoy Armor and want the Envoy Armor alone from an easier method.
But the path of least resistance would be raiding, these would be alternatives which would take longer.
Path of least resistance isn’t only about time, it’s about effort too.
In that raiding time, do you include training, gearing, mastering the content too? Do you add the time required for some players of the community to create guides for said content? Or you just say it will be the path of least resistance because a Raider can get the entire first part of the legendary armor collection in one evening, clearing all wings.
Do you use the time an average player will require to get the reward, or the best of the best raid runners?
As an example:
As an example 3 li a week (33% of what you can get now right for the 3 wings?)for easy mode thats 50 weeks close a year for the precursor armor casuals but no definately dont want that.
I still haven’t killed Matthias, one year after they released Salvation Pass. I admit I haven’t tried much, was too busy killing the other bosses, but still. In that easy mode, how many times (so how many weeks because you’ll always kill him) would it take to get all the collection achievement rewards from Mat?
If I were to start a thread about making Envoy Armor available from World Completion on the Living World board, and someone came in arguing that this shouldn’t be done because they should remain exclusive to raids, do you believe it would be fair for me to attempt to silence that line of thinking because “we aren’t talking about raids in this thread?”
That topic would be too narrow. If you made a thread about getting rewards (in general), maybe in general chat, from multiple types of content then it would be really hard to go off topic. And from what I understand that’s your real problem and not the Envoy armor alone.
Before discussing if Envoy Armor should get an alternative method of acquisition, wouldn’t it better if the topic was about getting everything through alternative methods of acquisition? Otherwise to anyone jumping in the thread, it looks like you want to get Envoy Armor and want the Envoy Armor alone from an easier method.
But the path of least resistance would be raiding, these would be alternatives which would take longer.
Path of least resistance isn’t only about time, it’s about effort too.
In that raiding time, do you include training, gearing, mastering the content too? Do you add the time required for some players of the community to create guides for said content? Or you just say it will be the path of least resistance because a Raider can get the entire first part of the legendary armor collection in one evening, clearing all wings.
Do you use the time an average player will require to get the reward, or the best of the best raid runners?As an example:
As an example 3 li a week (33% of what you can get now right for the 3 wings?)for easy mode thats 50 weeks close a year for the precursor armor casuals but no definately dont want that.
I still haven’t killed Matthias, one year after they released Salvation Pass. I admit I haven’t tried much, was too busy killing the other bosses, but still. In that easy mode, how many times (so how many weeks because you’ll always kill him) would it take to get all the collection achievement rewards from Mat?
Dosent matter if it take 1 time or 50 times on each boss since you have to clear it 50 weeks anyway.
Edit
And this would help you to since you could casualy kill the boss you needed how ever many times that took. Or take the easier method of training and killing it 1 time in normal mode
And this would help you to since you could casualy kill the boss you needed how ever many times that took. Or take the easier method of training and killing it 1 time in normal mode
ah nice to see actual raid are easy, so i guess one more reason not to have easier raid, since they are already easy.
And this would help you to since you could casualy kill the boss you needed how ever many times that took. Or take the faster method of training and killing it 1 time in normal mode
ah nice to see actual raid are easy, so i guess one more reason not to have easier raid, since they are already easy.
my bad for that typo had a brain fart, its correct with faster now
The question still stands, how is adding the same rewards on other types of content going to increase raid accessibility?
Adding other avenues to get rewards is going to increase reward accessibility (as well as cut down on possibility that players after those rewards will end up disliking the game due to having to farm them in the content they strongly dislike). Raid accessibility on the other hand would be increased by easy mode.
Your system has literally been discussed for over a year why it is not a better system.
And yet after that year we still don’t have any answer on this. Can it be because the assumption made in that question might be untrue?
It is never a good thing to take away incentives from doing any content by placing them in an easier method to acquire them.
Only if said incentives are not used to push people toward content they do not like.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)