Nalhadia – Kaineng
A Suggestion For Raids
In many ways, removing raiding from social equations might actually improve that part of the game. There’s just too much toxicity tied to that element.
(in my 20 years of multiplayer RPG gaming, all the guilds i was in – and i was in many – eventually fell apart due to causes that were rooted in raiding, or its pre-wow equivalent. I don’t remember any other factor that would be even half as disruptive as this one)
Unfortunately, in GW2 this pandora box has already been opened.
not an argument
good that you agree mate, I do aswell.
Why would you necro a thread from over 2 weeks ago to talk about something off topic? Ridiculous.
In many ways, removing raiding from social equations might actually improve that part of the game. There’s just too much toxicity tied to that element.
(in my 20 years of multiplayer RPG gaming, all the guilds i was in – and i was in many – eventually fell apart due to causes that were rooted in raiding, or its pre-wow equivalent. I don’t remember any other factor that would be even half as disruptive as this one)
Unfortunately, in GW2 this pandora box has already been opened.
not an argument
It’s as much an argument as yours was.
Are you sure they weren’t rooted in greed and ego ?
Pretty sure they come down to that and not the raid itself as that is harmless. Peoples unfettered desires however are always toxic.
Well, yes, of course the direct reason for the social disruptions was the negative emotions and internal disputes between guild members. It’s just that the raids were always the best breeding ground for those, perhaps due to the in-guild competiveness they introduced.
Perhaps the situation might be the same in case of set-size-team pvp. Can’t judge that, because i was never in a guild where such content was considered important. The best i can say is that open world pvp did not generate such emotions, quite the opposite. And that other, non-raid, non-pvp content did not seem to fuel that competitive compulsion.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
In many ways, removing raiding from social equations might actually improve that part of the game. There’s just too much toxicity tied to that element.
(in my 20 years of multiplayer RPG gaming, all the guilds i was in – and i was in many – eventually fell apart due to causes that were rooted in raiding, or its pre-wow equivalent. I don’t remember any other factor that would be even half as disruptive as this one)
Unfortunately, in GW2 this pandora box has already been opened.
not an argument
It’s as much an argument as yours was.
Are you sure they weren’t rooted in greed and ego ?
Pretty sure they come down to that and not the raid itself as that is harmless. Peoples unfettered desires however are always toxic.
Well, yes, of course the direct reason for the social disruptions was the negative emotions and internal disputes between guild members. It’s just that the raids were always the best breeding ground for those, perhaps due to the in-guild competiveness they introduced.
Perhaps the situation might be the same in case of set-size-team pvp. Can’t judge that, because i was never in a guild where such content was considered important. The best i can say is that open world pvp did not generate such emotions, quite the opposite. And that other, non-raid, non-pvp content did not seem to fuel that competitive compulsion.
Sounds like cherrypicking to me.
Also sounds like your blaming the mode for the fault of the people. Instead you should be putting the fault directly where it lies, the people you associated with.
Also sounds like your blaming the mode for the fault of the people. Instead you should be putting the fault directly where it lies, the people you associated with.
The people were, for the most part, completely fine as long as no raids were involved.
(also, i generally do not tend to blame people for things that aren’t their fault)
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
Also sounds like your blaming the mode for the fault of the people. Instead you should be putting the fault directly where it lies, the people you associated with.
Nearly all the examples of “toxic behavior” I’ve seen come down to people, not the game mode.
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
Also sounds like your blaming the mode for the fault of the people. Instead you should be putting the fault directly where it lies, the people you associated with.
The people were, for the most part, completely fine as long as no raids were involved.
(also, i generally do not tend to blame people for things that aren’t their fault)
If raids brought out bad behavior, then the potential for the bad behavior was already there. I’m more inclined to ask people to accept responsibility than I am to assign blame. However, if someone gets nasty over failure, over who got the desired virtual reward or whatever other myriad bones of contention you might care to name, then they got nasty. If you want to deny them the responsibility for their behavior by excusing it because of the game mode, that’s a curious choice.
For content to offer meaningful challenge to skilled players, it has to be to some degree hard. That means there has to be the possibility of failure. Failure tends to bring out the worst in some people and the best in others. Also, avarice, impatience, jealousy, egotism and other demons can dog cooperative efforts.
Easier content may mean those behaviors don’t come out. Does that mean there should only be easy content? No. In a game genre that survives by attracting multiple distinct player types, it means that players should recognize that if they don’t want to risk exposure to conflict in a game, they should avoid harder content except with people they know don’t carry that kind of baggage.
So why don’t they? Two reasons. They want the virtual gewgaw and they want convenience. That’s all these debates ever come down to.
(edited by IndigoSundown.5419)
Also sounds like your blaming the mode for the fault of the people. Instead you should be putting the fault directly where it lies, the people you associated with.
The people were, for the most part, completely fine as long as no raids were involved.
(also, i generally do not tend to blame people for things that aren’t their fault)If raids brought out bad behavior, then the potential for the bad behavior was already there. I’m more inclined to ask people to accept responsibility than I am to assign blame. However, if someone gets nasty over failure, over who got the desired virtual reward or whatever other myriad bones of contention you might care to name, then they got nasty. If you want to deny them the responsibility for their behavior by excusing it because of the game mode, that’s a curious choice.
For content to offer meaningful talent to skilled players, it has to be to some degree hard. That means there has to be the possibility of failure. Failure tends to bring out the worst in some people and the best in others. Also, avarice, impatience, jealousy, egotism and other demons can dog cooperative efforts.
Easier content may mean those behaviors don’t come out. Does that mean there should only be easy content? No. In a game genre that survives by attracting multiple distinct player types, it means that players should recognize that if they don’t want to risk exposure to conflict in a game, they should avoid harder content except with people they know don’t carry that kind of baggage.
So why don’t they? Two reasons. They want the virtual gewgaw and they want convenience. That’s all these debates ever come down to.
So much true but personally feels it is one bit incomplete. I would add a third reason: impatience
We should discuss about deleting PvP in all tiers first if we are considering to keep toxicity down. If you compare PvP and raids, PvP is the hell on earth and pugging raids is a bed of roses (without thorns).
Pug raiders would agree to me that the level of toxicity is little to non-existent if you are reading the lfg properly, acting smart, letting the commanders have an easy lead without discussing harshly against their decisions and doing your job.
It still stands: If you can’t afford teamplay and are not able to subordinate yourself from time to time you should not play raids.
Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
(edited by Vinceman.4572)
I don’t think anyone that has raided for more than a year can say with a straight face that raids are less dramatic or toxic than any other PVE content.
When you create something intended for larger groups, limit it to 10 players and then set up a difficulty barrier to entry that excludes (by Anet’s own admission) a large percentage of players – and then create a meta in which some play styles are EXTREMELY detrimental to the possible success of the group – then you are inevitably going to have people that feel left out or whose playstyles exclude them from groups (even groups with their friends).
This is further compounded by the lack of any other 10+ player organized PVE content in more than 3.5 years.
This isn’t saying raids themselves are bad or that they don’t have a place in the game. It is saying simply that when you don’t give guilds and other groups larger than 5 people any other organized PVE content, then the one thing you do introduce had kitten well better be open to (and designed for) the majority of players.
The direction they went with raids – to the exclusion of pretty much all other organized PVE group content (most notably guild missions) – is mindboggling – and, yes, it has contributed (to a small degree) to diminishing interest in the game.
And (because it always comes up), I do not hate raids (I do raids every week) – I do not hate raiders (I am one) – I just think that the model they have used – when combined with the lack of anything else even a tiny kittenallenging for organized groups – was a bad decision on ANet’s part.
Nobody said they are less dramatic or toxic than any other PvE content but they are in case of good ol dungeon times.
We had daily threads about alleged toxic behaviour because players were kicked for any/no reasons (from their own point of view). This is not applied by raids at all.
Well, and, even fractals are more toxic than raids.
Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
Nobody said they are less dramatic or toxic than any other PvE content but they are in case of good ol dungeon times.
We had daily threads about alleged toxic behaviour because players were kicked for any/no reasons (from their own point of view). This is not applied by raids at all.Well, and, even fractals are more toxic than raids.
IMO, the underlying issue with raids isn’t with the people doing them. For the most part, real raiders are a pretty accommodating group. While they are nowhere near as common as the forums would have us believe, there are training guilds/groups out there, people do try to help each other, etc.
The problem is the limiting nature of the content itself – and how Anet has made that worse rather than better.
First, there is the 10 players only issue. A common theme – that even Anet has acknowledged, is that 5-player parties are just easier to form. Group content that (in 95% of cases) cannot be done with any fewer or any more is the first limit.
On its own, that one wouldn’t be that bad. It’s when we dig deeper that the real issue – and resultant drama – occurs.
The single-tier difficulty tuned to provide a greater level of challenge. Challenging content is good for the game. Locking an entire game mode/content (with accompanying story/interesting boss mechanics/etc) behind a single difficulty level is not.
Next is the severely limited meta. Yes, almost any build can complete a raid, but the reality in game is that a beginning player who enjoys a rifle engineer is going to handicap the group a LOT more (too much more) than a staff ele.
Next, there is gear. Yes, ascended gear is easy to build for most people, but when the meta changes at the drop of a hat, it becomes tiring to some to have to keep building new sets or destroying/replacing runes and sigils.
And, finally, there is the lack of any other organized group content above the 5 person level. Guild missions were the perfect answer to this one, but we haven’t seen a new PVE guild mission since May 28,2013.
In a vacuum, raids aren’t toxic or drama-inducing. Just like anything else out there, there are good groups/leaders and bad groups/leaders. It is all about who you play with it.
It is the content model – combined with the realities of the game – that induces the drama and makes raids unenjoyable for many. The sad part is, Anet could fix all of these things, but they are too caught up on promoting raids as the end all be all challenging content for the game. That was a bad decision – not because the game doesn’t need challenge (it does), but because, when looked at in the actual context of the game, raids cause more drama through exclusion than they should or need to.
Also sounds like your blaming the mode for the fault of the people. Instead you should be putting the fault directly where it lies, the people you associated with.
The people were, for the most part, completely fine as long as no raids were involved.
(also, i generally do not tend to blame people for things that aren’t their fault)If raids brought out bad behavior, then the potential for the bad behavior was already there. I’m more inclined to ask people to accept responsibility than I am to assign blame. However, if someone gets nasty over failure, over who got the desired virtual reward or whatever other myriad bones of contention you might care to name, then they got nasty. If you want to deny them the responsibility for their behavior by excusing it because of the game mode, that’s a curious choice.
For content to offer meaningful challenge to skilled players, it has to be to some degree hard. That means there has to be the possibility of failure. Failure tends to bring out the worst in some people and the best in others. Also, avarice, impatience, jealousy, egotism and other demons can dog cooperative efforts.
Easier content may mean those behaviors don’t come out. Does that mean there should only be easy content? No. In a game genre that survives by attracting multiple distinct player types, it means that players should recognize that if they don’t want to risk exposure to conflict in a game, they should avoid harder content except with people they know don’t carry that kind of baggage.
So why don’t they? Two reasons. They want the virtual gewgaw and they want convenience. That’s all these debates ever come down to.
So much true but personally feels it is one bit incomplete. I would add a third reason: impatience
Ah, apologies. I assumed that convenience included not having to go out of one’s way, wait or other undesirable things that would trigger impatience.
(edited by IndigoSundown.5419)
I’ve been raiding for a year and haven’t seen any toxicity in pugs. Either i’m lucky or blind.
Only one person was toxic and half the raid community has him blocked. Most of you can probably guess.
I’ve been raiding for a year and haven’t seen any toxicity in pugs. Either i’m lucky or blind.
Only one person was toxic and half the raid community has him blocked. Most of you can probably guess.
You’re not really blind. Small communities are extremely good at self-regulation, whether that’s the pug community or a raiding guild.
Nalhadia – Kaineng