Guild Wars 2

Ever been to a dungeon where u play hard as ever to finish a dungeon efficiently just to see a random player who joined your party and simply press autoattack the rest of the fight? How I wish this game would make a meter to see dps, heals, etc. to measure workrate of players.

Barricade.3210:

Ever been to a dungeon where u play hard as ever to finish a dungeon efficiently just to see a random player who joined your party and simply press autoattack the rest of the fight? How I wish this game would make a meter to see dps, heals, etc. to measure workrate of players.

I do not agree with this at all. You can judge how players are doing based on whether or not they go down or not. If they are autoattacking. They are contributing. What if they have glass cannon build and they believe thier auto attacks are far more efficient than using thier abilities? using abilities does not mean an increase in DPS.

Take the sword 2 ability for guardian. Does 50 base damage at lv 80 for a 3/4 cast time, while the auto attack does about 450. Maybe this person feels s/he is being more effective by just autoattacking.

Instead of giving elite players another way to descriminate against casual players, why not just ask the person why he/she is autoattacking. Instead of adding a feature which will cause further descrimination.

Barricade.3210:

Ever been to a dungeon where u play hard as ever to finish a dungeon efficiently just to see a random player who joined your party and simply press autoattack the rest of the fight? How I wish this game would make a meter to see dps, heals, etc. to measure workrate of players.

In a nutshell: DPS or Heal Meters don’t tell you anything unless you know everything about the fight, the professions you are recording and how their effectiveness is affected by the circumstances. Since the fast majority of players don’t have that kind of knowledge – not even remotely – DPS and Heal Meters would do way more harm than good cause players would draw the wrong conclusions.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

A lot of abilities are condition based. I personally play a ton of ranger shortbow, which has an auto-attack that is glorious (even after the nerf). My other skills are very situational on the short bow: A cripple to slow down a chaser, a poison spread to lower healing over multiple enemies, a daze, and a dodge/swiftness. There no sense in blowing all those things, and just through smart positioning and auto-attacking, I can put out bunches of condi-DPS.

I don’t imagine we’ll implement something that allows you to observe another player’s “work-rate” because with all the different ways to make and play a character, it would be difficult to measure and quantify someone’s input in a factual way. It’s not about the numbers you make as an individual, but the team-play and coordination as a group.

THANK YOU ROBERT!!!! now can you spread that throughout all these posts please! Teamplay and coordination is key!

I would love to have personal meters.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

A lot of abilities are condition based. I personally play a ton of ranger shortbow, which has an auto-attack that is glorious (even after the nerf). My other skills are very situational on the short bow: A cripple to slow down a chaser, a poison spread to lower healing over multiple enemies, a daze, and a dodge/swiftness. There no sense in blowing all those things, and just through smart positioning and auto-attacking, I can put out bunches of condi-DPS.

I don’t imagine we’ll implement something that allows you to observe another player’s “work-rate” because with all the different ways to make and play a character, it would be difficult to measure and quantify someone’s input in a factual way. It’s not about the numbers you make as an individual, but the team-play and coordination as a group.

Well said, +1

Yeah, I´m also guilty of ignoring my auto-attack in favor of the cool&flashy but very situational other attacks.
I would love to “train” more, but still waiting for ANet to fix the abysmal FPS performance of this client(hint).

Too bad. I would like to be able to see everything about a dungeon run once it’s over. Damage dealt, sustained, evaded, mitigated, boons applied, conditions applied, healing done, numbers downed, numbers defeated. All of that for every different type of condition or damage source and with all of that data for every boss encounter.

I like to know about kitten.

I would have loved this feature, even agreeing that no rewards or consequences would be based off of it.

I like stats.

I’d like to know why sometimes the boss dies quickly and yet sometimes it drags on and on and on and on and on because I’m basically “carrying” a bunch of people who refuse to put points into their traits or if they feel like wearing white gear for RP purposes.

I wanna know how many mobs I’ve killed in cursed shore omw to a legendary precursor XD

I would love a personal version of this, damage one, physical and condition, heals done etc, would make a really good tool for comparing builds, you dont have to tell others what you did, just make sure there are no percentage damage done stats so people can’t infer your damage.

You don’t have to use a Damage Meter or Heal Meter to compare builds. Use simple math to get the raw stats which are then reduced by your skill level and the circumstances of the fight. And since the later are different each time and can’t really be simulated in a testing environment you wouldn’t gain more information from a Damage or Heal Meter than you can get by simply using math.

nachtnebel.9168:

You don’t have to use a Damage Meter or Heal Meter to compare builds. Use simple math to get the raw stats which are then reduced by your skill level and the circumstances of the fight. And since the later are different each time and can’t really be simulated in a testing environment you wouldn’t gain more information from a Damage or Heal Meter than you can get by simply using math.

Please give me a spreadsheet with every warrior skill’s scaling coefficient and every dungeon mob’s armor value. The math isn’t simple enough for me.

Take a quick look at the wiki:
(Power) * (Weapon Strength) * (Skill Ratio) / (Armor) = Total Damage
For the damage displayed in the Tooltip an armor value of 2600 and the mean of Weapon Strength is assumed. So, if you want to know the Skill Ratio all you have to do is simple math
Skill Ratio = [(Tooltip Damage) * 2600] / [(Power) * (Weapon Strength Mean)]

The wiki tells you how to figure in conditions and condition damage as well:
Condition – % per tick
Bleeding – 5%
Burning – 25%
Poison – 10%
Confusion – 15%

A mob’s armor value is inconsequential since it works the same way against every source of direct damage and is ignored by conditions.

So the math behind all this is really simple, it is just multiplication and division. If you need a spreadsheet you can create one yourself.

Condition damage doesn’t work like that.

And for real: a recount of your actions during one specific fight does give different information than theorycrafting a build. The two are not in a more-less relationship. Instead, the data from the meter will allow you to judge how well you actually did in practice, while maths allow you to get a grasp of both the limits and the average performance of your spec – without regard for your personal ability. They’re different kinds of data sets, interesting for different kinds of reasons.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

A lot of abilities are condition based. I personally play a ton of ranger shortbow, which has an auto-attack that is glorious (even after the nerf). My other skills are very situational on the short bow: A cripple to slow down a chaser, a poison spread to lower healing over multiple enemies, a daze, and a dodge/swiftness. There no sense in blowing all those things, and just through smart positioning and auto-attacking, I can put out bunches of condi-DPS.

I don’t imagine we’ll implement something that allows you to observe another player’s “work-rate” because with all the different ways to make and play a character, it would be difficult to measure and quantify someone’s input in a factual way. It’s not about the numbers you make as an individual, but the team-play and coordination as a group.

As much as I would like some sort of meter for personal damage review I have to agree with Robert here.

In my experience playing so far and running into pugs that don’t feel like they are contributing as much as other players I have had in previous runs, I have found the best way to get them to play better is to do a bit of research myself. Look up some information about the profession, then if there is something missing from what he/she is doing that you feel would help just make a suggestion. Quite often I have found that people I feel are playing ineffectively are just running a build I don’t fully understand.

Also with regards to meters in general I think in a game like this they would probably cause more issues than they would solve. Say for example you have a player who feels raw damage output is the most important thing a player can do, (and lets face its thats probably quite the majority). If they have a meter saying somebody is short in this area, meter will get linked – “Your DPS sucks etc.” and hostilities ensue. While no doubt this probably occurs now, if somebody feels they have proof of this it will only fuel the fire.

Although as I mentioned earlier ones for personal analysis would be great, I know a lot of the work behind it is quite simple mathematically and it can be done manually. But having it all done in game for you with pretty graphs is so much easier :p

Zinkey.6983:

Also with regards to meters in general I think in a game like this they would probably cause more issues than they would solve. Say for example you have a player who feels raw damage output is the most important thing a player can do, (and lets face its thats probably quite the majority). If they have a meter saying somebody is short in this area, meter will get linked – “Your DPS sucks etc.” and hostilities ensue. While no doubt this probably occurs now, if somebody feels they have proof of this it will only fuel the fire.

This seems like a useless point to argue to me. Players who would act like that if they were “empowered” by statistics probably already are acting thoughtless and are not the kind of person you would want to run a dungeon with.

The kind of person who needs to berate their party members and push their own ego will always find something to whine about. If you take away their statistics, they will just start acting like kittens once they see somebody make an actual mistake.

It seems to me that implementing a good and strong statistics tool would rather make it easier for informed players to repel others who try to flaunt their high DPS numbers. A good tool will collect data about other things as well: The number of interrupts, the number of dispels, the uptime of certain buffs/debuffs. All this data can be used to show beyond the shadow of a doubt that even lower DPS builds can bring value to a party.

I totally agree, with robert. Measuring other peoples work is not what Guild Wars is about.

Just looking at equations won’t really tell you what is really happening. Sure, it is quite easy to calculate raw DPS. However when in melee there are times when you take too much damage and you have to reduce pressure for a while. My point is that pure glass-cannon DPS may not give highest DPS in real situation.

Also we are missing how much few beers actually affect your output. Rather important result, if you ask me.

i like this game because its not “ALL about the numbers” like all the other MMO’s and i hope that anet keeps it that way

actually if you have had an awesome run who cares who has made the most dmg or whatsoever…. a “meter” would only divide the players into their roles and it would not be a success of the whole group anymore

a “meter” would only lead to, all the people wanting that ONE class thats above all others and it would also lead to the typical classification of the classes like youre a better healer or tank and so on…

Just let us check other players’ gear.

spreadsheets.9805:

Condition damage doesn’t work like that.

Of course it does, all the formulas and values can be found in the official wiki:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition_damage
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bleeding
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burning
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Poison
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusion

And for real: a recount of your actions during one specific fight does give different information than theorycrafting a build. The two are not in a more-less relationship. Instead, the data from the meter will allow you to judge how well you actually did in practice, while maths allow you to get a grasp of both the limits and the average performance of your spec – without regard for your personal ability. They’re different kinds of data sets, interesting for different kinds of reasons.

A DPS Meter will allow you to judge how well you did, but it’s also highly situational. Recording your DPS during a specific fight is like performing a specific experiment. Both have no real value as long as you don’t have anything to compare them to and as long as you can’t repeat them. So, unless you intend to fight the exact same mob, the exact same way over and over again there is no point in a DPS Meter.
The only exception to this would be if you really know EVERYTHING about the game and the fight, which is far beyon what a DPS Meter could tell you.

Oh Snapalope.1378:

Just let us check other players’ gear.

so you can judge other players by their gear?

do you think you actually can tell if the player knows how to play his char only by looking at his gear?

nachtnebel.9168:

spreadsheets.9805:

Condition damage doesn’t work like that.

Of course it does, all the formulas and values can be found in the official wiki:

And for real: a recount of your actions during one specific fight does give different information than theorycrafting a build. The two are not in a more-less relationship. Instead, the data from the meter will allow you to judge how well you actually did in practice, while maths allow you to get a grasp of both the limits and the average performance of your spec – without regard for your personal ability. They’re different kinds of data sets, interesting for different kinds of reasons.

A DPS Meter will allow you to judge how well you did, but it’s also highly situational. Recording your DPS during a specific fight is like performing a specific experiment. Both have no real value as long as you don’t have anything to compare them to and as long as you can’t repeat them. So, unless you intend to fight the exact same mob, the exact same way over and over again there is no point in a DPS Meter.
The only exception to this would be if you really know EVERYTHING about the game and the fight, which is far beyon what a DPS Meter could tell you.

Your post seemed like you thought the damage was literally just the scaling coefficient * condition damage, as you left out the base.

Note how I never talk about a DPS meter specifically. In fact, I have tried to stress the importance of a more encompassing record, which would reveal a great deal more than simple damage values. But even if I could only see my damage, that would still be a huge help.
Let’s just look at the condition you posed: If I want to fight the exact same mob in the exact same way repeatedly, a combat recount would be of use. Now, there are a couple of problems with this. Firstly, the “exact same mob” part is trivial and can easily be dismissed. Yes, I do plan on fighting the same bosses multiple times. As for me having to fight in the exact same way: No, this is not the case. I want to try out different ways of fighting the same enemy and see which way yields the best results. A combat recount would provide me with a means to analyze different attempts at the same content more easily, thus serving a specific purpose. It should be clear by now that only the former of your assumptions holds true.

You might think that I have overlooked the part where you asked for something to compare the empirically collected combat data to. I have not. You yourself have done a good job elaborating on what would be suited as a comparison. One could simply do the math to find out what numbers their spec can pull under optimal conditions, then proceed to compare them to the actual happenings. This way, you could get a far clearer grip of how well you are doing compared to the possible optimum than trying to just take a guess or go by your feeling.

spreadsheets.9805:

Your post seemed like you thought the damage was literally just the scaling coefficient * condition damage, as you left out the base.

Well, since the base per tick of every condition of the same type is always the same no matter by which profession, weapon or skill it is applied there is no reason to mention it cause it can be considered as basic knowledge.

Note how I never talk about a DPS meter specifically. In fact, I have tried to stress the importance of a more encompassing record, which would reveal a great deal more than simple damage values. But even if I could only see my damage, that would still be a huge help.
Let’s just look at the condition you posed: If I want to fight the exact same mob in the exact same way repeatedly, a combat recount would be of use. Now, there are a couple of problems with this. Firstly, the “exact same mob” part is trivial and can easily be dismissed. Yes, I do plan on fighting the same bosses multiple times. As for me having to fight in the exact same way: No, this is not the case. I want to try out different ways of fighting the same enemy and see which way yields the best results. A combat recount would provide me with a means to analyze different attempts at the same content more easily, thus serving a specific purpose. It should be clear by now that only the former of your assumptions holds true.

Unless you do the math to, which most people, if not all of them, probably won’t do, the data you accquired would have no real value cause you’d have nothing to compare it to.
If you want to measure your skill level properly you need a very controlled environment in which what will happen and when it will happen is predetermined but at the same time you mustn’t know what will happen cause this would compromise the experiment.
A simple recording tool can’t fulfill these requirements since it can’t create predetermined test cases.

You might think that I have overlooked the part where you asked for something to compare the empirically collected combat data to. I have not. You yourself have done a good job elaborating on what would be suited as a comparison. One could simply do the math to find out what numbers their spec can pull under optimal conditions, then proceed to compare them to the actual happenings. This way, you could get a far clearer grip of how well you are doing compared to the possible optimum than trying to just take a guess or go by your feeling.

This won’t tell you anything more than just counting the obvious mistakes you made during a fight, e.g. missing an CD, placing an GTAoE wrong, dodging in the wrong direction, miscalculation distances and so on.

If you want to get resulst that are more than just rough guesses you would need a replay of the fight with a free cam mode – or at least multiple vidoes of the fight from different angles – and a listing of all the events happened. And even then you would still have to do a lot of math before you could draw the right conclusions that would actually provide more insight than the above-mentioned rough guess.

Synopsis: Combat recording tools are overrated, not cause the data they provide is worthless but because the fast majority of the players who use them don’t know what the data they see actually says.

Oh Snapalope.1378:

Just let us check other players’ gear.

Hell no! Gear based discrimination is already rampant. We don’t need any more of it.

I’d kill for a DPS meter or somesuch. When you’re speed-clearing dungeons, that’s the number one priority – how much damage you dish out. Honestly, I just wanna see how much damage I’m putting out relative to other players. It’d be a nice thing to look at in terms of self-improvement.

nachtnebel.9168:

You might think that I have overlooked the part where you asked for something to compare the empirically collected combat data to. I have not. You yourself have done a good job elaborating on what would be suited as a comparison. One could simply do the math to find out what numbers their spec can pull under optimal conditions, then proceed to compare them to the actual happenings. This way, you could get a far clearer grip of how well you are doing compared to the possible optimum than trying to just take a guess or go by your feeling.

This won’t tell you anything more than just counting the obvious mistakes you made during a fight, e.g. missing an CD, placing an GTAoE wrong, dodging in the wrong direction, miscalculation distances and so on.

If you want to get resulst that are more than just rough guesses you would need a replay of the fight with a free cam mode – or at least multiple vidoes of the fight from different angles – and a listing of all the events happened. And even then you would still have to do a lot of math before you could draw the right conclusions that would actually provide more insight than the above-mentioned rough guess.

Synopsis: Combat recording tools are overrated, not cause the data they provide is worthless but because the fast majority of the players who use them don’t know what the data they see actually says.

First Paragraph: What if I want to know what those mistakes actually amount to? Am I not permitted to because you deem the values meaningless?

Second Paragraph: Please provide an actual argument for your view or make it more clear from what previous statement this should follow.

Really, if you are interested in keeping up a conversation with me, please be more clear about what you are trying to say.

As for the first part of your post.

Unless you do the math to..

But I would do that, see what I wrote in the second paragraph for that. Furthermore, I actually said in that very paragraph you quoted that I would like to do multiple runs and compare the resulting different data sets.
I really don’t get why you deny the possibility that someone just compares the data he got from his combat log to his prior experience, then notes whether it was better or worse. Also, if you theorycraft a build that’s able to put out 100k DPS or 10 dispels ever 20s or 20 stacks might every 50s (arbitrary numbers), then find you can’t ever get more than half of that because the spells you use have impractically long cast times or something, you can go look for a build that looks weaker in theory but is stronger in practice. But whether or not that build is actually stronger in practice is hard to discern without a proper combat log. This is stuff that you can’t calculate, you just have to record how well a build does when it is used. On top of that, the information gained in this process is meaningful. It shows flaws in a specific style of play and helps you make better decisions as a player.

I really don’t see your problem with this view. Don’t mean to be rude when I say this but please, please try to be very clear if you decide to respond to this post. I am not in the mood for deciphering.

its just all about the e-kitten
thats why so many people want dmg meters or the possibility to check the gear from another player…

why not just play the game and have fun instead of bragging with numbers!?

Ok so how do you use meters to gauge these classes?

Because you’re not just looking at just dps or healing or tanking, but rather all those plus support, reviving, being-downed, etc for any given player… My engineer might not be top dps, but I throw out heal kits, healing field (elixir gun), revive downed players, maintain high stacks of vulnerability, while maintaining a low rate of being downed. We also generally win the fights without zerging it.

You can tell if players are good/bad based on what they’re doing and how the fight is going. If we’re cheesing it, I couldn’t give a kitten if they’re just auto-attacking or not being super effective. If we’re doing poorly, now it’s time to start scrutinizing what folks are doing (not necessarily commanding, but just “hey, you got <insert skill name>?… that could be useful for this fight”.

Robert lost me at ranger doing great dps. I started gw2 as a ranger. Got tired of all the nerfs with the sb nerf being the last straw. I have my dungeon master title,3200 achievement points(only 62 being salvage points) and I have 3 characters all in full exotic everything. The ranger is by far the lowest dps of the 3 characters. Warrior,ranger,thief. I have been in the top 5 guilds world wide in every game I have played.

I list all of that not trying to be elitist but rather to give some background and support of my next comment.

You are out of your mind if you think the ranger currently brings anything to a dungeon group that any other class cant do better be it dps or control. In a LOT of circumstances the ranger is actually a detriment to the group. Dont believe me? Do the captain in Arah path 2 with a pet who doesnt get behind a box. Do subject alpha where the pet can and will kill people because it gets its own set of ae circles. Basically, I can go on and list multiple ways the ranger is a detriment to a group. Sure, you can work around these detriments, but why bother when you can bring any other class and get more from them as far as synergy,dps,and group utilities?

It all boils down to….. you devs wont ever put in a meter because the sheer imbalance of the classes would be recognized by the average joe.

Ruien.9506:

Robert lost me at ranger doing great dps. I started gw2 as a ranger. Got tired of all the nerfs with the sb nerf being the last straw. I have my dungeon master title,3200 achievement points(only 62 being salvage points) and I have 3 characters all in full exotic everything. The ranger is by far the lowest dps of the 3 characters. Warrior,ranger,thief. I have been in the top 5 guilds world wide in every game I have played.

I list all of that not trying to be elitist but rather to give some background and support of my next comment.

You are out of your mind if you think the ranger currently brings anything to a dungeon group that any other class cant do better be it dps or control. In a LOT of circumstances the ranger is actually a detriment to the group. Dont believe me? Do the captain in Arah path 2 with a pet who doesnt get behind a box. Do subject alpha where the pet can and will kill people because it gets its own set of ae circles. Basically, I can go on and list multiple ways the ranger is a detriment to a group. Sure, you can work around these detriments, but why bother when you can bring any other class and get more from them as far as synergy,dps,and group utilities?

It all boils down to….. you devs wont ever put in a meter because the sheer imbalance of the classes would be recognized by the average joe.

I feel your pain
But there is gonna be a ranger skill update soon!
You know there is one dungeon that ranger is actually awesome in though- Twilight Arbor. I gotta say. I have 3 chars I can take in there- Guardian, Mesmer and Ranger and surprisingly I prefer my ranger simply because Guardian=poor ranged DPS, Mesmer=Squishy, Ranger= good ranged DPS + pet wolf that can fear and ranged pet. And an AoE cure condtions+regen healing spring. Factor in everytime I switch pets I get quickness it’s pretty nice for there. Ranged kill blossoms, ranged kill the bosses, bleed and poison stacks on bosses, etc. The wolves at the start? many people (I pug) like to pull them back into the area where the blossoms respawn.. not a problem – That nature spirit elite will res all downed players nearby. Now I agree with you for sure, but I have found ranger can still be OK in a dungeon even if it is totally kitten atm. Any necro is a better choice over a ranger for the simple fact that their conditions are AoE. Piercing arrows just doesn’t cut it unless everything is lined up or you can edge into a situation where they go through a few targets. When I take a ranger these days I have to ask him what his build is and what pets he uses and etc, it’s very sad I have to do that because you really need a setup and skilled player to compensate for a poor class atm.

Anyway: They can be acceptable, but they really need a fix!

GW2 will never be a “serious” MMO without a client side logfile to parse. At minimum, it requires subsecond-accurate timestamps, logging of every ability, every attack, every action. (it does NOT, now)
Logging of self and other players is done in many many other MMO’s, all of which have been in production vastly longer than GW2. (or even GW1+GW2 put together). They are doing just fine with it.

My personal opinion is that the lack of a client side parse-able logfile is due to the accurate balance complaints it generates. It allows customers to compare, mathematically, over time, their effectiveness in combat. It exposes design flaws and forces designers & developers to justify their decisions.

In other words, you don’t see it in games where the developers are scared of scrutiny, comparison, and critical dissection of their decisions.

I’ve read this before, so here’s a repost: All feedback regarding class envy/balance, with respect to combat damage, will ultimately be untrustworthy without a client side logfile to parse. Until such a feature is added/enabled into the client, truly accurate feedback on this subject will not be possible. Feelings and impressions create a drama swirl the likes of which, oh wait, exactly what we’re seeing now, post-launch in GW2.

Adding a meter would definitely have its respective pros and cons, but what I can’t understand is the rejection of having such. Discrimination as a con can be a tool to increase ones productivity in order to become a better player and guaging your individual progress for me is definitely a plus to the players and to the game. It saddens me to know that Anet doesnt seem to see it that way, but hopefully an alternative of such kind or something close to it would be implemented, or perhaps a 3 degree of dungeon difficulty if a meter can’t be granted.

I found this sort of thing extremely obnoxious in DCOU. (not b/c I fell behind in them, but b/c it made me realize a little too often how much I was carrying the PuGs I joined)

In this game you have to use your imagination a lot more if you want to compare your performance directly to another teammate’s. I think that’s the way it should stay.

this game is not WoW plain and simple. we dont need DPS meters. we dont need healing meters. we dont need to judge people based on numbers. dungeons are about creativity and survival. these meters would serve no purpose in a game like this and would only hurt it in the long run

I personally want meters because I constantly like to improve along with my friends. Almost everything in life has a form of measurement. It’s how we become more efficient and better at our tasks. The only problem with the meter is that some people use it to discriminate instead of using it for good purposes.

Meters are always gonna bring both positive and negative connotations. Like most people who favor it though, I’d want it to gauge my own damage output.

Guild wars 1 never had a meter. Yet people were still able to judge based on builds and performance.

Guild wars 2 should run the same way.

If you pay attention , and know other class skills/traits , you know whether or not someone is being productive. Just like in guild wars 1. Each skill had its own unique sound or activation. and If you were good enough, you could close your eyes, and listen to whats going on ,and you would know just what skill was being used, besides the ranger/ritualist spirits of course. they have the same sounds.

And i personally do not agree with allowing us to see other peoples gear. I dont care about how anyone else plays but me. And that is all that should matter to EVERYONE. Dont worry about others. Worry about yourself.

Kashien.6278:

And i personally do not agree with allowing us to see other peoples gear. I dont care about how anyone else plays but me. And that is all that should matter to EVERYONE. Dont worry about others. Worry about yourself.

Disagree with this entirely. You’re posting in the dungeon forum. Guild Wars 2 dungeons are supposed to emphasize team play and coordination. It should matter to you what class and spec you bring into a dungeon.

Think it’s been made pretty clear that 5 glass cannon berserker gear dps usually ends pretty badly in dungeons 9 times out of 10.

Everyone should be contributing to the party success and so you should care about who is in your group, and they should care what you’re contributing to the group.

A big point of contention from people who want higher difficulty and more dynamic dungeon encounters is that there isn’t enough of this. I somewhat agree with this sentiment.

I think dungeons shouldn’t be just grab 5 people, who cares what their spec is or what their class is, and just autoattack our way to victory.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

A lot of abilities are condition based. I personally play a ton of ranger shortbow, which has an auto-attack that is glorious (even after the nerf). My other skills are very situational on the short bow: A cripple to slow down a chaser, a poison spread to lower healing over multiple enemies, a daze, and a dodge/swiftness. There no sense in blowing all those things, and just through smart positioning and auto-attacking, I can put out bunches of condi-DPS.

I don’t imagine we’ll implement something that allows you to observe another player’s “work-rate” because with all the different ways to make and play a character, it would be difficult to measure and quantify someone’s input in a factual way. It’s not about the numbers you make as an individual, but the team-play and coordination as a group.

I play a Hammer and mace/mace and I agree with this message.

Playing a 10/0/30/30/0 build, I do very little damage compared to my glass cannon buddies. I knockdown breeders so they don’t overwhelm the group, I knockback scavengers so they don’t knock me down. I immobilize things so they don’t overwhelm clothy friends. I make sure that my party members survive.

However, I don’t spam them because it isn’t smart play to blow all the cooldowns. Therefore I will most likely to get the lowest workrate compared to the glass cannons.

I feel like the argument is happening because the OP asked to view someone else’s information.

the game, in theory, is capable of recording not only your own raw DPS (condition or otherwise), but the extra damage done by your boons, and the health restored by your heals. ultimately this game is a measure of damage, time, and health. the side that gets their (on target) damage > opponent’s health in the smallest amount of time is victorious, always. healing can be thought of subtracting from your opponent’s damage or restoring your own health, so in effect damage can be thought of as the only relevant factor you’re contributing too (other than passive health). the amount of damage that’s averted through blocks, dodges, etc, should be calculable and trackable for each player. so it’s not impossible to think we could find someone’s effective damage/time for the dungeon, and this is actually how effective they are being. i have no idea the logistics or what that would do to game code efficiency wise, i’m just saying it could be done.

and if it can be done, it should, not as a publicly available statistic but as a privately view able “dungeon metric” for each player. it is kind of hard, especially for new players, to judge how much they are contributing in a dungeon. if you can’t tell that you’re not contributing, or that you could be contributing much more efficiently, how are you to even know that you should be improving?

basically, i think we do need to be able to keep track of our own dungeon stats. revives, DPS, healing, everything we can reasonably keep track of should be at our disposal. same for PvP.

but it shouldn’t be available to the public.

*edit: made units more correct. also, swiftness would be difficult to quantify without taking area into account as well. so point there. but any action in game is meaningless if damage or health is left unchanged.

Barricade.3210:

Ever been to a dungeon where u play hard as ever to finish a dungeon efficiently just to see a random player who joined your party and simply press autoattack the rest of the fight? How I wish this game would make a meter to see dps, heals, etc. to measure workrate of players.

Even been to a dungeon where you, as a sword & board warrior, pull tons of aggro, kite like hell (while not using many skills except the occasional dodge or autoattack) and die or go down often while buying your team precious time to kill the mobs?

On your metric, that player would be horrible.

Reminds me of WoW and the member of the dungeon-group that was kicked for lack of DPS before he could even type “but I’m the healer, guys”.

In a game that requires so much more than simple DPS and skill-rotation, such a meter is an invitation for bad players or players who are bad at reading meters to unjustly bash others.

The result? Everyone trying to look good on the meters. Res the downed player? Sorry, my long-CD-weaponskill just came off CD. Over all, the worst idea I’ve ever seen on this forum.

Ruien.9506:

Robert lost me at ranger doing great dps. I started gw2 as a ranger. Got tired of all the nerfs with the sb nerf being the last straw. I have my dungeon master title,3200 achievement points(only 62 being salvage points) and I have 3 characters all in full exotic everything. The ranger is by far the lowest dps of the 3 characters. Warrior,ranger,thief. I have been in the top 5 guilds world wide in every game I have played.

I list all of that not trying to be elitist but rather to give some background and support of my next comment.

You are out of your mind if you think the ranger currently brings anything to a dungeon group that any other class cant do better be it dps or control. In a LOT of circumstances the ranger is actually a detriment to the group. Dont believe me? Do the captain in Arah path 2 with a pet who doesnt get behind a box. Do subject alpha where the pet can and will kill people because it gets its own set of ae circles. Basically, I can go on and list multiple ways the ranger is a detriment to a group. Sure, you can work around these detriments, but why bother when you can bring any other class and get more from them as far as synergy,dps,and group utilities?

It all boils down to….. you devs wont ever put in a meter because the sheer imbalance of the classes would be recognized by the average joe.

But aren’t we going back to the old problem with the holy-trinity with what you are asking about what a “ranger brings” to a dungeon party? I mean, before GW 2 was released the devs talked in terms of Association (soccer) Football teams and I think that’s a good analogy.

What is a role of a forward in football? One way to look at it is that the forwards role is to score goals. Except that in football, even the goalie can score. So another way to look at it is that forward is simply the player(s) closest to the goal. Likewise, forwards to run down the field when the opposing them is in possession. Just as defenders run forward when their team is in possession. So even though forwards and defenders have set positions, they don’t stay in that position during the game and what they do during the game is determined by the player not the position.

I think the same thing is true of GW 2. Based purely on armour class you can roughly say that Soldiers = front line, Adventurers = second line and scholars = back line. But we know that some necros can take a beating longer then some warriors and even Guardians can staff (which is more awesome that people give it credit for) or scepter (please change #2 to symbol!) from the back. Considering that rangers have both melee and ranged weapon choices, a player is free to define their own role within the party.

I mean, if Adventurers are the second line and thus roughly midfielders in the football analogy, then ranger can choose to be offensive midfielders who stay in close range with their goal being to damage and/or crowd control the mob. Alternatively, they can be defensive midfielders who stay at longbow range but can thus scan the field in relative comfort and react defensively, for example, squishie has mob on them, range can try and draw mobs attention or kite the mob so squishie can lose aggro. But it is up to you as a player to figure out what you role in dungeons are.

Also why meters are a bad idea because when your role is fluid, there are no easy metrics.

PS. I do wholeheartedly agree that the inability to put pet away is detrimental to our class. I mean, when I click the button to “put away” pet, I wish the pet would stay “put away” until I call them back! Because sometimes you just don’t want the pet around!

Ruien.9506:

Robert lost me at ranger doing great dps. I started gw2 as a ranger. Got tired of all the nerfs with the sb nerf being the last straw.

Try playing mesmer. You know nothing of pain.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

A lot of abilities are condition based. I personally play a ton of ranger shortbow, which has an auto-attack that is glorious (even after the nerf). My other skills are very situational on the short bow: A cripple to slow down a chaser, a poison spread to lower healing over multiple enemies, a daze, and a dodge/swiftness. There no sense in blowing all those things, and just through smart positioning and auto-attacking, I can put out bunches of condi-DPS.

I don’t imagine we’ll implement something that allows you to observe another player’s “work-rate” because with all the different ways to make and play a character, it would be difficult to measure and quantify someone’s input in a factual way. It’s not about the numbers you make as an individual, but the team-play and coordination as a group.

Robert, I hate to disagree with people but…well I disagree.

If you are DPSing just as well with any class with your condition damage via auto-attack than there should be no problem to measure the amount of damage each person has done in the entire run since you are DPSing still.

And to help make it more balance since you state that most of your skills are situational, than make a couple catagories:

- Overall Damage Dealt
- Overall Condition Damage Dealt
- Overall Damage Taken
- Overall Condition Damage Taken
- Overall Heal Amount Dealt
- Overall Heal Amount Received
- Number of Knockbacks Dealt
- Number of Knockdowns Dealt
- Number of Dodgerolls
- Number of Deaths
- Number of Revives Dealt
- Number of Revives Received

That should pretty much accurately describe who did what and how much that said person contributed throughout the dungeon run.