Guild Wars 2

I would like to ask why Ascalonian Catacombs was made harder than almost any other dungeon in the game, save for Arah and Twilight Arbor? This is supposed to be the first dungeon players encounter. Why would you make it so difficult? It provides only an area for players to grow frustrated with the dungeon system. Path 2 is the only AC dungeon path that I think fits the criteria for a first time dungeon runner(Minus the spider Queen, she is a kitten and a half sometimes with all her adds and poison), though the final boss fight does take quite some time to complete. I just believe that the first tier dungeon should not be harder than a top tier dungeon like Crucible of Eternity. I also believe a dungeon should not be so hard to where almost everyone exploits just to get through it. (Stairs in Path 1, and the Corner in Path 3.) I know you know what I am talking about >w>. I would just like to know if it would ever be possible for you guys to scale down the difficulty a bit. Please and thank you. Have a nice day.

Also I have a quick suggestion. For parts of the dungeon that are most often skipped (Kohler & The troll) Make a reward of 5-10 AC tears for them. It would definitely make people less prone to skip them.

At the moment, I’d say it’s because it is the first and only reformed dungeon in the game currently.

Eleir.9325:

Also I have a quick suggestion. For parts of the dungeon that are most often skipped (Kohler & The troll) Make a reward of 5-10 AC tears for them. It would definitely make people less prone to skip them.

They already drop the goodie bags that give a vial of karma, 3 tokens, and some money. I don’t believe there needs to be much more than that.

Maybe should release an infantile dungeon for those who want a really easy dungeon.

How many players rage quit during their first time at the spider? Burned by flame throwers, stabbed by spikes, spiderlings crawling all over them, webbed and poisoned LOL its a hilarious riot. I complained but now I love it and cant get enough.

And the icing on the cake. .. all that is pretty much the introduction haha awesome. Serious. Dont get me wrong I dont like it when people quit it makes me sad. I stay and encourage them to finish. Thats the best when someone new sticks it out and beats the boss.

Wait wat, Twilight Arbor hard?

It takes about 45min to 1h for my usual group to finish all 3 paths, even with 2-3 puggies. Condi removals, thiefs and bouncing projectiles make the dungeon way easier.

I stopped taking you seriously at Twilight Arbor. That dungeon is easy as, I don’t even use condition removals, just faceplant the keyboard until the bosses die. Skipping sections is little more than L2Utilities (regardless of your profession.)

Yes, everyone is godly at dungeons, and anyone who thinks different is bad at dungeons. Can we move our egos aside for a minute, and try to put ourselves in someone elses shoes?

Ascalon Catacombs was one of the hardest dungeons (save for Arah) upon release. It may or may not have gotten more difficult after the update. Twilight Arbor was a complete nightmare before some of the fixes. But it still isn’t very enjoyable (certainly not in storymode, that is even harder than explorable).

The OP has a good point. When me and some guildies reached the right level to enter AC, we couldn’t wait to have some fun in there…. and then of course we got obliterated by teeth-grinding difficulty. None of us were having any fun, and it felt like a painful grind through mobs with all way too much health and damage. It would turn anyone away from dungeons right there. Not a very good introduction to dungeons in the slightest.

For the record, I’ve completed AC multiple times with ease these days… but that’s at level 80, with full exotics gear. But I never found it much fun (it’s just a linear game of wack-a-mole).

“Oh, you just want all dungeons to be easy!”

No, of course I don’t. But this is a dungeon in a starter area. It might very well be everyone’s first encounter with a dungeon. And I think you’d want them to have fun, not kick them in the teeth, and turn them away from dungeons for good.

Twilight Arbor isn’t much better. Teeth grinding difficulty, constant armor repairs, unfair traps that insta-kill you, and then respawn when you have to go through it again. And of top of it all, no game play that is actually enjoyable. You grind through it, or run through it, and that’s it. It is not a very interesting dungeon. There is nothing in it to make it enjoyable or interesting. But if you are that easily entertained, good for you. By all means, do the dungeon as often as you like.

My point is, dungeons could be so much better, and be so much more fun. Frankly, you should demand more from such a creative team. And a first dungeon like AC should make people want to do more dungeons, not turn them away from dungeons because they’re not good enough to handle it.

Not everything has to be in infantile mode. But a steady difficulty curve is kind of important if you want people to enjoy your content.

Ayrilana.1396:

Maybe should release an infantile dungeon for those who want a really easy dungeon.

This would be great. They could have kitten Clouds that spit rainbow bridges to the loot chests, you don’t even have to fight the bosses or do any of the events.

Slither Shade.4782:

And the icing on the cake. .. all that is pretty much the introduction haha awesome. Serious. Dont get me wrong I dont like it when people quit it makes me sad. I stay and encourage them to finish. Thats the best when someone new sticks it out and beats the boss.

I recall recently running AC with a group where one guy raged after the first wipe on Queen Spider (after complaining during the entire fight). I convinced the group to give it one more try with the remaining four people which resulted in Queen Spider dying without a single defeat. We eventually fell apart at Kholer, but killing Queen Spider made it rewarding enough :P.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Ascalon Catacombs was one of the hardest dungeons (save for Arah) upon release. It may or may not have gotten more difficult after the update. Twilight Arbor was a complete nightmare before some of the fixes. But it still isn’t very enjoyable (certainly not in storymode, that is even harder than explorable).

Pretty much every dungeon at release is awful. It’s nothing but hit point sponge after hit point sponge. There are some interesting mechanics in there with a lot of potential, but it’s hard to call any of the release dungeons pleasant.

AC, in my opinion, improved in some areas and got worse in others but improved overall. Improvements were the reduction of hit point pools and the changes to the end boss mechanics (bugs aside) to make them more than just tank n spanks with an occasional dodge.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The OP has a good point. When me and some guildies reached the right level to enter AC, we couldn’t wait to have some fun in there…. and then of course we got obliterated by teeth-grinding difficulty. None of us were having any fun, and it felt like a painful grind through mobs with all way too much health and damage. It would turn anyone away from dungeons right there. Not a very good introduction to dungeons in the slightest.

It sounds like you are referencing your experience with old AC more than the revamped version. The hit points on the mobs in every dungeon except AC is ridiculous. AC mobs drop significantly faster and the fights are a lot more involving.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

No, of course I don’t. But this is a dungeon in a starter area. It might very well be everyone’s first encounter with a dungeon. And I think you’d want them to have fun, not kick them in the teeth, and turn them away from dungeons for good.

Aside from some tweaks and bug fixes, the dungeon does what an introductory dungeon should do: teach basic mechanics and team based coordination. It also forces you to learn you profession and how to properly pick utilities, gear, and traits. If you are dying to conditions a lot in AC then you probably should start using cleanses. I wouldn’t be surprised if people enter AC and never run Break stun or condition removal because it’s not something that is required most of the time while leveling up in zones.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Twilight Arbor isn’t much better. …

My point is, dungeons could be so much better, and be so much more fun. Frankly, you should demand more from such a creative team. And a first dungeon like AC should make people want to do more dungeons, not turn them away from dungeons because they’re not good enough to handle it.

Once again, TA and pretty much every other release dungeon is pretty bad when it comes to interesting mechanics. It’s all tank n spank on mobs/bosses with excessive HP. There are occasionally interesting mechanics but people either find cheese strategies around them or the mechanic goes unnoticed because DPSing and face tanking work fine enough (Legendary Effigy and the regen crystals in CoF come to mind).

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Not everything has to be in infantile mode. But a steady difficulty curve is kind of important if you want people to enjoy your content.

I agree, but I think the difficulty curve of AC is just fine for an introductory dungeon. People just need to be willing to learn the mechanics and learn their class. Completing AC the first few times will require a certain level of humility that many players lack.

+1 to Iamduddits and -1 to Ayrilana (if you were being serious). Our small guild ran AC story last week, took a good 2 hours to do it, (after pausing, and adjusting our traits based on what we were seeing) and tried path 1 last night. We just made it past the spider queen (that took 2 hours). We didn’t watch any videos prior, we didn’t have a full compliment of 80s (only 2, there was a 35 and a few in between), and maybe not the best gear or (I’m sure) best traited sets. But we’re learning at our pace and enjoying it.

PvE, which is all any of us have played, is not as complex as dungeon running. The player’s skill level is challenged quite a bit more and if our group wasn’t already diehard GW2 lovers, we could have easily gotten discouraged and frustrated by the jump in skill required to do the dungeons versus normal PvE.

What I would have liked to see is, from AC Story through the three paths, is a gradual increase in difficulty so that a team can progress from the basics in Story Mode, to a decent difficulty in Path 3. From what I’ve read, the three paths are about the same in difficulty. So, yeah, there’s a sense of “Ok, party is over, now you’re in the Marines” with jumping into AC from PvE. But Kitten no, don’t make it harder. As I posted in another thread, you don’t throw calculus at kindergardeners. There has to be someplace for beginners to learn.

I was partly serious but mostly sarcastic with that statement.

Dungeons are the only thing in this game that requires you to group up. You have to learn to work as a team. You have to wear appropriate gear. You have to have appropriate traits.

It will be difficult for those who are not 80 since they lack all of those traits and stat points. A lot of people who are leveling do it in berserker gear, don’t really plan out their stat point allocation, the traits they use, the skills they use (assuming they have many), and wear underleveled gear. The class of gear is likely greens and blues. To top this off, they are still new to their class and/or new to the game. This puts them at a severe disadvantage to level 80 which has a little more room for error.

You have people who choose not to read guides and tips on how to do dungeons. You have people that don’t realize that there is this nifty feature called dodge. You have people that want to faceroll everything without learning the mechanics of the dungeon and bosses.

All of this is why groups fail. It’s not because the dungeon itself is too difficult. It’s because the players choose to make it so.

(Clarification: berserker gear is good IF you’re experienced with your class and the dungeon)

Ayrilana.1396:

I was partly serious but mostly sarcastic with that statement.

Dungeons are the only thing in this game that requires you to group up. You have to learn to work as a team. You have to wear appropriate gear. You have to have appropriate traits.

It will be difficult for those who are not 80 since they lack all of those traits and stat points. A lot of people who are leveling do it in berserker gear, don’t really plan out their stat point allocation, the traits they use, the skills they use (assuming they have many), and wear underleveled gear. The class of gear is likely greens and blues. To top this off, they are still new to their class and/or new to the game. This puts them at a severe disadvantage to level 80 which has a little more room for error.

You have people who choose not to read guides and tips on how to do dungeons. You have people that don’t realize that there is this nifty feature called dodge. You have people that want to faceroll everything without learning the mechanics of the dungeon and bosses.

All of this is why groups fail. It’s not because the dungeon itself is too difficult. It’s because the players choose to make it so.

(Clarification: berserker gear is good IF you’re experienced with your class and the dungeon)

Pretty much all of this.

People still use the “It’s the first dungeon” argument as an excuse for dodge being too hard to grasp. People say dodge-or-die is too harsh for the first dungeon, but honestly PvE leveling up to 35 was a gradual enough learning curve. If you haven’t learned to dodge highly choreographed attack animations from leveling then clearly the punishment for failing the dodge wasn’t enough for you to learn the mechanic. It’s not even a low level problem, I see so many level 80s fail this dodge repeatedly and consistently.

The other problem isn’t so much the people that don’t read dungeon tips and guides, it’s the people that don’t even listen to you. I think some of my most enjoyable AC runs were with groups consisting of low level players on their first characters and not from groups of all 80s that were in full zerker.

I don’t mind dungeons being difficult, especially in explorable mode.

But I do very, very much wish that I would have been able to do them in story mode at the appropriate point in my character’s development / story. As it stands, my character has been level 80 forever, almost concluded her personal story, and NOW that I am maxed, traited and geared out I a going back to rescue Queen Jennah from Caudecus’ Manor? That doesn’t make me very happy.

Story mode should be doable without reading guides (spoilers!) first or having some other player explaining the story to you. It’s anti-immersive.

So, I think story mode should be easier to the point that people can do it at the appropriate level and without resorting to spoilers.

Additional paths can be super hard for all I care.

Story mode is normally pretty easy compared to explorable. I can’t think of any of the stories being all that difficult to be honest. We’re talking about the explorables or at least I was.

I disagree that they should be done once you reached the level to do the story mode. It would make sense to do them in the order of their level though to follow that story arc.

Ayrilana.1396:

I disagree that they should be done once you reached the level to do the story mode. It would make sense to do them in the order of their level though to follow that story arc.

Of course they should be done in order, but there are also dependencies between the dungeon stories and the personal stories.

Example: Caudecus’ Manor is level 40. The story is “Rescue Queen Jennah”. My character is now way beyond level 40 and in my own personal story, Caudecus has long been dealt with. It simply makes no sense, from a story standpoint, to get to a higher level and then go back in time.

Are you sure? I wasn’t aware that the dungeon stories specifically occurred side-by-side your personal story. The only exception are that they start after the argument in LA and the fact the last personal story mission and Arah story are the same.

Also, you do not have to do the story as each mission becomes available. Your level doesn’t determine when you should do a particular story\mission other than a minimum requirement. In other words, your level has no impact on the actual story.

Am I sure? :P

Yes, my main is human / order of whispers which means I got all the Caudecus action in my personal story.

Human (level 1-10): the early story line is to help Logan uncover corruption in the ministry, at which point it is pretty obvious (if I remember right) that Caudecus is a bad guy.

Order of Whispers (level 31-40): I think this comes to a conclusion later on when you do the Order of Whispers path and apprehend Caudecus officially.

Level-wise, this happens at the same time as the dungeon story.

They don’t arrest him. They just state they will soon have enough information to keep him under wraps.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/An_Apple_a_Day

Then I remember wrong – like I said, it’s been months since I played the personal story

Ayrilana.1396:

Maybe should release an infantile dungeon for those who want a really easy dungeon.

Rename it baby mode

I think the original point the OP was making is that the first dungeon available, based on recommended level to run it, is AC. I understand the desire to make no exceptions to any of the dungeons in terms of complexity and required skills to run the dungeon, but I don’t agree with it. From a casual player’s standpoint, he hits 30th level, he gets an email invite to try out his first dungeon, he runs in (under whatever circumstances – pug, guild group, whatever) and is put to the test of a level of play that is not required in PvE to that point, unless he’s been soloing vets, or even champs.

My point is totally based on this first dungeon having a learning curve that teaches the player, without insta-death, how to read the boss’s tells, how to wait for the attack and to dodge, how to solve the puzzles, both from the environment of the dungeon and from the story arc they are playing.

I don’t want to lump hard dungeons into the class of only being around to zerg or get to the chest asap or worse, only having one way to beat them, which is the one thing I hated about GW1 dungeons – there ultimately was only one tried and true way to take down the boss, period, so you got online, read the recipe, went out and got the elites you needed, built the group that met the requirements, made sure their builds were spot on, made sure they had the specific gear needed – that was such a specific mode of playing a dungeon that it alone got incredibly boring. I’m glad GW2 allows for a LOT more improvisation, at least in this dungeon, AC, the only one I’ve run so far.

I’m also fine with making the dungeons, at least those played at the stated recommended minimum level – the first one – a bit easier. There’s always time to jack up the difficulty level on the others, but the first one should be a showcase of things to come, not a “better players required, noob” experience. Because, yeah, you’ll lose casuals, those that can’t plop down for 6 hours a day to master their dodge finesse, or research the best gear or analyze builds – they shouldn’t be able to do at least a few easier dungeons? We do want a populated world, right?

Playing this dungeon feels like I’m beta testing. ex: People porting through walls, wvw level fps in spider room, buggy sparks in ghost lizard fight.

I have to assume the intention of this dungeon was to frustrate, drive away new players, and prevent people from playing level 35 dungeons as non-minmaxed level 35 (or level <80) for experience.

edit: i liked sab, make more stuff like that

Kisses.1054:

Playing this dungeon feels like I’m beta testing. ex: People porting through walls, wvw level fps in spider room, buggy sparks in ghost lizard fight.

I have not seen any of the issues you have mentioned. People porting through walls is likely an exploit and that’s the player’s fault, not the game’s. There’s no reason to lag in the spider room so it’s either due to server lag (which affects everything, not just the dungeon) or your computer. How exactly are the sparks buggy? I can understand the boss but not the sparks.

Ayrilana.1396:

Kisses.1054:

Playing this dungeon feels like I’m beta testing. ex: People porting through walls, wvw level fps in spider room, buggy sparks in ghost lizard fight.

I have not seen any of the issues you have mentioned. People porting through walls is likely an exploit and that’s the player’s fault, not the game’s. There’s no reason to lag in the spider room so it’s either due to server lag (which affects everything, not just the dungeon) or your computer. How exactly are the sparks buggy? I can understand the boss but not the sparks.

During the Hodgins event, if you are standing between the edge of the graveling mound and the wall when the graveling mound is destroyed you will get kicked to the other side of the wall (I’ve only seen this happen on the mound that spawns in the corner next to the pillar). I wouldn’t really call it an exploit as it’s more of an inconvenience for the player than a benefit.

mjhungness.8059:

I think the original point the OP was making is that the first dungeon available, based on recommended level to run it, is AC. I understand the desire to make no exceptions to any of the dungeons in terms of complexity and required skills to run the dungeon, but I don’t agree with it. From a casual player’s standpoint, he hits 30th level, he gets an email invite to try out his first dungeon, he runs in (under whatever circumstances – pug, guild group, whatever) and is put to the test of a level of play that is not required in PvE to that point, unless he’s been soloing vets, or even champs.

My point is totally based on this first dungeon having a learning curve that teaches the player, without insta-death, how to read the boss’s tells, how to wait for the attack and to dodge, how to solve the puzzles, both from the environment of the dungeon and from the story arc they are playing.

It’s not that unreasonable to assume that people have solo’d Vets considering how many areas have skill points that involve killing a Vet plus adds. Regardless, if a player is having a difficult time soloing vets at level 30 then they should not be blaming dungeon difficulty, but rather their ineptitude. It’s a hard reality, but the sooner people realize that they aren’t as good as they think they are the sooner they will learn to improve and master the various elements of the game. It really takes little time, no where near the 6 hrs that you suggest.

As for dodging, players have 35 levels to learn that glowing, choreographed attack animations means that you should be dodging soon. With that being said, the reason instant death is used as punishment for failing the dodge is because anything shy of that and the player doesn’t learn the mechanic. This is proven by the fact that so many people get to AC not knowing how to dodge.

It’s not ACs fault that people expect dungeons to be as face roll as PvE.

I remember that. I usually just get stuck in a wall or something.

I agree that there should exist some easier dungeon with lesser rewards, to help newbies to get a hang of dungeon mechanics, but I don’t think they should nerf the difficulty on the existing ones.

It should not always be “it has to be hard, no exceptions, L2P or get lost” kind of mindset. I think challenging content is nice and all, and the new AC boss mechanics seems cool, but they really did tune up the difficulty a lot. I know some people are just very good. Some people probably kite and beat champions at lvl 30, not just veterans. But a lot of people don’t.

Personally, when I first ran dungeons, I died a few times, sure. That’s a given. I didn’t dodge as well as I do now, my traits were all over the place so to speak. But it didn’t get to a point where the whole group just felt it was impossible and quit. But because it didn’t feel too bad, I was more willing to learn and practice until eventually I ran many dungeons without even getting downed. If I had stumbled into some steep and mind boggling overwhelming difficulty at that time, I’d have just left and won’t bother making my gameplay better. And this was in the previous, “easy” AC.

In that time as well, I’ve met many other players who takes much longer time to adapt and get better in their play to effectively run dungeons. So I really do think we should consider other people’s view point as well. I heard so much “dodge dodge dodge” arguments that I sometimes get the impression either you need to have super good, perfect timing reflex to dodge or you’re not just good enough. Seriously, I’m not that kind of twitchy gamer (and I sure hope games don’t boil down to just being twitchy good reflexes) so some things do need time and space to learn and practice. Thus, what seems easy to some, is not really that easy for others.

I too hold the opinion that AC is a little too brutal for new players. It is after all the “first dungeon”.

It is not exactly difficult but it is extremely brutal, lazy and CHEAP. I usually pug with my level 80 and I really feel sorry for the new level 40ish players as they keep dying to CHEAP game design. Path 1 especially is CHEAP beyond description.

I would like to ask the devs what were they thinking when they design the last boss. The fire patches that are suppose to kill the adds are not always there and once you get knocked down, it is nearly impossible to get back on your feet.

This is NOT about skill or game mechanics. It is simply a matter of DPS and LUCK. Ah – 4 fire patches(that burns you too btw), adds die fast. Darn, no fire patches and an army of adds, you are so dead (I have run around avoiding an army of adds and the stupid NPC is either not placing enough fire patches OR placing them in the dumbest locations). To the developers, Stability Skill is a RARE resource especially for low level characters.

After that experience, players simply say, I wont touch another dungeon until I am level 80.

Eleir.9325:

I would like to ask why Ascalonian Catacombs was made harder than almost any other dungeon in the game, save for Arah and Twilight Arbor? This is supposed to be the first dungeon players encounter. Why would you make it so difficult? It provides only an area for players to grow frustrated with the dungeon system. Path 2 is the only AC dungeon path that I think fits the criteria for a first time dungeon runner(Minus the spider Queen, she is a kitten and a half sometimes with all her adds and poison), though the final boss fight does take quite some time to complete. I just believe that the first tier dungeon should not be harder than a top tier dungeon like Crucible of Eternity. I also believe a dungeon should not be so hard to where almost everyone exploits just to get through it. (Stairs in Path 1, and the Corner in Path 3.) I know you know what I am talking about >w>. I would just like to know if it would ever be possible for you guys to scale down the difficulty a bit. Please and thank you. Have a nice day.

All dungeons are easy. If you don’t think so, learn how to dodge and or optimize your profession.

ParnAshwind.4823:

After that experience, players simply say, I wont touch another dungeon until I am level 80.

I do not think this is a bad thing at all.

I didn’t run any explorable dungeon until I was lvl80 on crafted exotics.
I just thought that those explorables were there more for skins than anything else, and that dungeons with level below 80 existed only for organized groups (in fact, I always expected explorables to be designed for organized groups) that could prefer a really challenging content over the open world PvE in order to level up and enjoy the game.

I never expected groups of random players without a deep understanding of their characters, without the apropiate gear and traits for the content they were going to face, to just group up and be succesful at the lowest entry level of the theorically hardest content of the game. I still don’t expect it.
I expected, and I expect, organized groups failing many times before completion and learning by hard how to face and solve every encounter.

There are lots of players however that knowing what these dungeons reward (high amounts of gold and XP in comparision with open world and tokens that can gear up a lvl80 toon for no cost) want and think they are entitled to do them.
I do not. Without explorable modes, the game still offers many ways to level up and earn enough money to carry on.
Personal story, events and map completions are usually enough to make a toon naturally level up. If a player feels that this is not enough, a little bit of gathering and crafting, alternative maps (those not tied to the main storyline for each character) and story mode dungeons (which should be, and usually are, easier than explorables, and which are somehow tied to the story) should solve any issues.
The fact that explorables offer shinier rewards doesn’t mean that everybody should be looking for them as soon as they can. Low level explorables are there IMHO as an OPTION more than as an expected path.

AC has been the first dungeon on receiving major changes. Explorable mode difficulty has been toned up (and suffered btw a really interesting decrease on most enemies’ annoying health pools) while Story Mode has become easier.
Every other dungeon on the game is probably going to experience the same changes in the future, and I expect them to become harder than AC.

I expect almost every player to want to experience every scrap of content in the game, and I feel that most of them should be able to do this, but this doesn’t mean they should do it by the most profitable way.

well, AC-story is pretty easy, perfect for newbies.
but then they’ll think: “huh…was challenging, but we did it, what could possibly go wrong if we do explorable mode? i mean it’s just 5 character levels higher.”
then they’ll meet the gravelings…oh boy, i remember my first time…still can’t hit the burrows with my longbow.
now, they’re using you as a ping-pong-ball all over the dungeon…the dev who coded that knockback/down into gravelings must be really sadistic. :P

Vargamonth.2047:

ParnAshwind.4823:

After that experience, players simply say, I wont touch another dungeon until I am level 80.

I do not think this is a bad thing at all.

I didn’t run any explorable dungeon until I was lvl80 on crafted exotics.
I just thought that those explorables were there more for skins than anything else, and that dungeons with level below 80 existed only for organized groups (in fact, I always expected explorables to be designed for organized groups) that could prefer a really challenging content over the open world PvE in order to level up and enjoy the game.

Average new player will generally reach level 80 by simply exploring and doing events by the time they reach level 60-65 maps.

Crafted Exotics is not easily accessible by “new” players. They are not “cheap” to buy (end product/mats). Besides, it is not so much about the gear in the case of AC, the Traits and Slot Skills plays a huge part.

Denying new players or should I say making their live so hellish in the 1st dungeon is simply wrong. Many games suffer after veteran players leave and new players shy away from dungeons in general. It makes grouping up infinitely harder and the game dies with it.

AC Path 2 and Path 3 has better mechanics. Path 1 is brutally chaotic – get knocked down, pick yourself up and run towards a fire patch that will burn and probably kill you is cheap mechanics. The class I notice suffer most in my pug are lower level Elementalist who gets thorn into bits at the slightest error.

Why should new players get themselves to level 80 to enjoy a level 35 dungeon?

I mean, it is a far better experience for low level characters to do FOTM 1-9 than navigate AC. Why, because I believe FOTM has better game mechanics.

Problem is, while the new final bosses are just right, the spider queen is too difficult for the first explorable dungeon boss in the game. Reduce her from legendary to champion, in my opinion.

She is a ton easier to kill than before since she has less health…

She’s not hard. See those red circles on the ground? Don’t stand in them. Notice that web attack she sprays in front of her that immobilizes you? Don’t stand in front of her.

Simple.

ParnAshwind.4823:

Why should new players get themselves to level 80 to enjoy a level 35 dungeon?

As I said, I do not see AC Explorable exactly as lvl35 content, I see it more as “end game” content that you can (but you are probably not expected to) experience from lvl35 onwards.

The game already provides story dungeons at 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 75, 78 and 80 iirc. I think that’s more than enough to experience dungeoning while leveling and discovering the game.
I see the level of explorables as a clever use of the downscaling mechanic that is more focused on “hardcore” gamers that could enjoy the challenge and specially on alt characters, never on an average fresh player.

I can see, however, a new player, probably unfamiliar to downscaling, getting somehow confused and frustrated when trying to run it at tagged level and being kitten hard.

Maybe explorable modes should all be set to lvl 80. I mean aside maybe from the rare items at the vendor, one of the main incentive to run dungeons are the weapons and armor, the exotic ones, which are lvl 80 gear. I’m really sorry but so long as it remains a “lvl 35 dungeon”, I strongly feel it should be made to reflect thus. Yes probably some would say you could do it on a lvl 35 toon, but then that’s if you’re already very experienced and it also requires a smaller margin for error, which demands even more skill on the players part, which I feel isn’t fair for those first timers.

Vargamonth.2047:

ParnAshwind.4823:

Why should new players get themselves to level 80 to enjoy a level 35 dungeon?

As I said, I do not see AC Explorable exactly as lvl35 content, I see it more as “end game” content that you can (but you are probably not expected to) experience from lvl35 onwards.

The game already provides story dungeons at 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 75, 78 and 80 iirc. I think that’s more than enough to experience dungeoning while leveling and discovering the game.
I see the level of explorables as a clever use of the downscaling mechanic that is more focused on “hardcore” gamers that could enjoy the challenge and specially on alt characters, never on an average fresh player.

I can see, however, a new player, probably unfamiliar to downscaling, getting somehow confused and frustrated when trying to run it at tagged level and being kitten hard.

This. At level 35, AC is meant to feel like end game content. You aren’t meant to face roll through them like it’s a series of level 35 Dynamic Events. Devs have even stated end game starts at level 1.

And as mentioned, the down scaling is meant to make earlier dungeons still be somewhat challenging at max level/gear. Completing AC in full exotics at level 80 is comparable to beating Contra using the Konami code.

Meanwhile for the newcomers I don’t think it’s fun to wipe and stay in the dungeon several hours. It can be very dissuasive for them to play dungeons.
You can say whatever you want about end game, if nobody but 1% play it it’s a failure and it’s not the 1% elitist that will keep the game alive.

Riss.1536:

Meanwhile for the newcomers I don’t think it’s fun to wipe and stay in the dungeon several hours. It can be very dissuasive for them to play dungeons.
You can say whatever you want about end game, if nobody but 1% play it it’s a failure and it’s not the 1% elitist that will keep the game alive.

THIS exactly. Why are so very few players playing dungeons at the moment? This is the reason.

Many players had their taste of dungeons at an early level, and the experience was a dreadful one. Not only is it way too hard that early in the game, but it also isn’t any fun. Fun is a very personal thing of course. Some players think difficult in itself brings a challenge, and thus it is fun. I see the two separate. Something can be easy, and still entertaining. And that is what I would like AC to be.

All this nonsense about “learn to dodge”, “don’t blame the game for your inability to do dungeons”… -none of that is relevant! So what, if some of you find these dungeons easy! You’re level 80’s in full exotics, and btw, so am I. I run these dungeons just fine now. But back when I got the invitation to the dungeon in my mail, around level 30, me and my team got torn to shreds. And that long agonizing experience turned most players away from dungeons for good.

Some players were willing to give dungeons a second chance, so they tried Twilight Arbor or Caudecus Manor. But let me tell you, if AC didn’t make you quit dungeons, those two will.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

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*All this nonsense about “learn to dodge”, “don’t blame the game for your inability to do dungeons”… -none of that is relevant! *So what, if some of you find these dungeons easy! You’re level 80’s in full exotics, and btw, so am I. I run these dungeons just fine now. But back when I got the invitation to the dungeon in my mail, around level 30, me and my team got torn to shreds. And that long agonizing experience turned most players away from dungeons for good.

Dodge is a very important mechanic of ALL dungeons. It is not irrelevant.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Riss.1536:

Meanwhile for the newcomers I don’t think it’s fun to wipe and stay in the dungeon several hours. It can be very dissuasive for them to play dungeons.
You can say whatever you want about end game, if nobody but 1% play it it’s a failure and it’s not the 1% elitist that will keep the game alive.

THIS exactly. Why are so very few players playing dungeons at the moment? This is the reason.

Many players had their taste of dungeons at an early level, and the experience was a dreadful one. Not only is it way too hard that early in the game, but it also isn’t any fun. Fun is a very personal thing of course. Some players think difficult in itself brings a challenge, and thus it is fun. I see the two separate. Something can be easy, and still entertaining. And that is what I would like AC to be.

All this nonsense about “learn to dodge”, “don’t blame the game for your inability to do dungeons”… -none of that is relevant! So what, if some of you find these dungeons easy! You’re level 80’s in full exotics, and btw, so am I. I run these dungeons just fine now. But back when I got the invitation to the dungeon in my mail, around level 30, me and my team got torn to shreds. And that long agonizing experience turned most players away from dungeons for good.

Some players were willing to give dungeons a second chance, so they tried Twilight Arbor or Caudecus Manor. But let me tell you, if AC didn’t make you quit dungeons, those two will.

So based on your logic, AC should be made simple rather than actually teach the basic mechanics of the game that every dungeon thereafter builds on. So instead of quitting dungeons during AC they’ll just do it later in CM, TA or any of the other dungeons that dodging is required to succeed at.

If a player is so easily swayed away from dungeons that they’ll do it once or twice and then never go back or quit the game outright then I’m sorry to say that no change in the mechanics or the punishment for error is going to appease these players short of a face roll.

You make AC easier and within a few weeks time people will be posting: “why is CM so hard, it’s only the second dungeon, it’s for level 45s”

The dungeon story mode was originally required to progress in personal story line. That was removed during beta to accommodate the people who wanted to play the whole game solo.
I think for continuity of story, player skill progression, and more popularity of story mode dungeons the requirement needs to be reinstated.
Along with that the story mode difficulty level should reflect what the average player of the appropriate level will have for gear. They probably have a couple of greens but mostly blues and whites. Also they will be new to an expanding skill bar and be very short on traits.
Now with those two ideas balancing the story mode more players should come to enjoy dungeons more and learn to play with groups more effectively increasing their overall game enjoyment.
In regards to Explorable mode I think the difficulty is fine. BUT it should be made very clear that they are designed for well coordinated and outfitted groups.

Reading the wiki about various boss mechanics, how Defiant works, and learning how to time dodges makes most dungeons incredibly easy. Also, if it’s my first run through a dungeon (especially on a lower leveled character) I tend to pack on more Toughness and Vitality so I’ll be slightly less squishy and have more room for error.

And, just for emphasis, LEARN HOW DEFIANT WORKS. It’s hard to coordinate CC in a PUG, but if your group can really get how to peel Defiant stacks and interrupt a boss’s Big Hit the encounters become brain-dead easy. I’ve run into a few groups where someone in the party just didn’t understand when to use CC and, more importantly, when not to use CC and thus ruined any hope of interrupting anything. I’ve also run into groups where everyone knew how to read and count where this was much less of a problem.

At 80, in full exotics, you can afford to DPS Spam your way to the end. At lower levels that isn’t really an option so you have to do the encounters as they were designed. I enjoy that approach more anyway.

This dungeon is probably now the third hardest. There are a lot of small things going on but generally when an AC fight gets out of control it goes completely irrevocably wrong. Players need to grab control of the events rather than let them happen. That’s fine for experienced players but really hard for new players to do. New players should be able to explore the dungeon and not just walk through it following a script.

Troll is so unfun and overpowered now. Seriously just have giganticus Lupicus burst out of the wall instead as a bonus event.

Seren.6850:

Troll is so unfun and overpowered now. Seriously just have giganticus Lupicus burst out of the wall instead as a bonus event.

Lupi is more fun to face than Troll. Troll is just a tedious fight due to the CC spam. The location he spawns makes Troll harder than he has to be as well.

You’d have to teach people what skills are cc as well.

Ayrilana.1396:

You’d have to teach people what skills are cc as well.

Every attack he does has a CC component lol. I’m not sure what you mean.