Guild Wars 2

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

Einlanzer.1627:

Obtena.7952:

Hyper Cutter.9376:

Illconceived Was Na, Anet deliberately gutted dungeon rewards to drive people into fractals and raids, they literally stated this outright. I know you know that.

If all they wanted was to reduce the amount of gold people were getting, they could have increased the number of dungeon tokens, boosted the drop rate of all those obscure recipes, and so forth. But they didn’t care about that, they just didn’t want people doing dungeons. And they succeeded wonderfully, the dungeon LFG is basically a wasteland.

If Gold was the only reason people were doing dungeons, then dungeons really were not worth supporting as content in the first place.

Gold was the only reason because the content never got any attention from devs after around month 6 or so. They explicitly stated they were trying to drive players away from dungeons instead of putting resources into supporting them, which is asinine.

Yes exactly … It’s not asinine. It makes perfect sense. If people are ONLY doing content for gold, then that’s not quality content to begin with. Anet recognized that and dealt with the problem properly since they decided they weren’t going fix dungeons to be worth doing beyond being a gold faucet.

How does it make sense for a game to give people less content to play and less reasons to log in? I’m confused as to why you think it’s a good idea to reduce playtime.

It doesn’t, but those aren’t the reasons they nerfed dungeons so I don’t see the relevance.

You say it makes perfect sense to get rid of dungeons. No more dungeons = reduced playtime.

No more dungeons doesn’t not result in reduced playtime unless you don’t substitute for other content. Anet does not tell you what content you will do; you decide that.

There’s no alternative though. Fractal dailies are shorter than they were pre-HoT, dungeons not worth doing and raids on a weekly cooldown.

You can see how their attitude towards dungeons and instanced content in general is quite weird, no? It’s like they no longer wanted people to play instanced content on a daily basis.

Those might not be alternatives to you. I don’t see their attitude as weird at all. In fact, I think it goes directly to how they approach GW2 as an atypical MMO. There are LOTS of things in this game that Anet purposefully did to avoid the standard approaches to providing an MMO. I think dungeons is just another one of those. Albeit, it wasn’t successful, but when you try new things in the market, sometimes the market doesn’t like them. It happens.

Really? Purposefully destroying a dungeon community, taking away the stuff they were enjoying before the expac makes sense to you?

If you’re going to be sensational, I think there is little value in having a discussion with you. I said it makes sense for Anet to nerf dungeon rewards if the only purpose that people were using dungeons for was to farm gold. Please listen.

Not being sensational man, I’ve been in speedrun guilds, dungeon communities. What little is left are raiding, loads quit fairly shortly after HoT, and 90% of my friendslist afks in DR pretty much all day long.

It comes back to a larger issue in the game atm. There’s very little replayability, even if you are into open world. That’s why it doesn’t make sense to me they wanted to reduce replayable content even more by making fractals a 30min daily and getting rid of dungeons entirely. There’s no upside.

Linken.6345:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

Einlanzer.1627:

Obtena.7952:

Hyper Cutter.9376:

Illconceived Was Na, Anet deliberately gutted dungeon rewards to drive people into fractals and raids, they literally stated this outright. I know you know that.

If all they wanted was to reduce the amount of gold people were getting, they could have increased the number of dungeon tokens, boosted the drop rate of all those obscure recipes, and so forth. But they didn’t care about that, they just didn’t want people doing dungeons. And they succeeded wonderfully, the dungeon LFG is basically a wasteland.

If Gold was the only reason people were doing dungeons, then dungeons really were not worth supporting as content in the first place.

Gold was the only reason because the content never got any attention from devs after around month 6 or so. They explicitly stated they were trying to drive players away from dungeons instead of putting resources into supporting them, which is asinine.

Yes exactly … It’s not asinine. It makes perfect sense. If people are ONLY doing content for gold, then that’s not quality content to begin with. Anet recognized that and dealt with the problem properly since they decided they weren’t going fix dungeons to be worth doing beyond being a gold faucet.

How does it make sense for a game to give people less content to play and less reasons to log in? I’m confused as to why you think it’s a good idea to reduce playtime.

It doesn’t, but those aren’t the reasons they nerfed dungeons so I don’t see the relevance.

You say it makes perfect sense to get rid of dungeons. No more dungeons = reduced playtime.

No more dungeons doesn’t not result in reduced playtime unless you don’t substitute for other content. Anet does not tell you what content you will do; you decide that.

There’s no alternative though. Fractal dailies are shorter than they were pre-HoT, dungeons not worth doing and raids on a weekly cooldown.

You can see how their attitude towards dungeons and instanced content in general is quite weird, no? It’s like they no longer wanted people to play instanced content on a daily basis.

Those might not be alternatives to you. I don’t see their attitude as weird at all. In fact, I think it goes directly to how they approach GW2 as an atypical MMO. There are LOTS of things in this game that Anet purposefully did to avoid the standard approaches to providing an MMO. I think dungeons is just another one of those. Albeit, it wasn’t successful, but when you try new things in the market, sometimes the market doesn’t like them. It happens.

Really? Purposefully destroying a dungeon community, taking away the stuff they were enjoying before the expac makes sense to you?

If you’re going to be sensational, I think there is little value in having a discussion with you. I said it makes sense for Anet to nerf dungeon rewards if the only purpose that people were using dungeons for was to farm gold. Please listen.

And now people use fractals to farm gold when is the nerf comming..

Dunno … I don’t work at Anet. Have to ask them.

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

Einlanzer.1627:

Obtena.7952:

Hyper Cutter.9376:

Illconceived Was Na, Anet deliberately gutted dungeon rewards to drive people into fractals and raids, they literally stated this outright. I know you know that.

If all they wanted was to reduce the amount of gold people were getting, they could have increased the number of dungeon tokens, boosted the drop rate of all those obscure recipes, and so forth. But they didn’t care about that, they just didn’t want people doing dungeons. And they succeeded wonderfully, the dungeon LFG is basically a wasteland.

If Gold was the only reason people were doing dungeons, then dungeons really were not worth supporting as content in the first place.

Gold was the only reason because the content never got any attention from devs after around month 6 or so. They explicitly stated they were trying to drive players away from dungeons instead of putting resources into supporting them, which is asinine.

Yes exactly … It’s not asinine. It makes perfect sense. If people are ONLY doing content for gold, then that’s not quality content to begin with. Anet recognized that and dealt with the problem properly since they decided they weren’t going fix dungeons to be worth doing beyond being a gold faucet.

How does it make sense for a game to give people less content to play and less reasons to log in? I’m confused as to why you think it’s a good idea to reduce playtime.

It doesn’t, but those aren’t the reasons they nerfed dungeons so I don’t see the relevance.

You say it makes perfect sense to get rid of dungeons. No more dungeons = reduced playtime.

No more dungeons doesn’t not result in reduced playtime unless you don’t substitute for other content. Anet does not tell you what content you will do; you decide that.

There’s no alternative though. Fractal dailies are shorter than they were pre-HoT, dungeons not worth doing and raids on a weekly cooldown.

You can see how their attitude towards dungeons and instanced content in general is quite weird, no? It’s like they no longer wanted people to play instanced content on a daily basis.

Those might not be alternatives to you. I don’t see their attitude as weird at all. In fact, I think it goes directly to how they approach GW2 as an atypical MMO. There are LOTS of things in this game that Anet purposefully did to avoid the standard approaches to providing an MMO. I think dungeons is just another one of those. Albeit, it wasn’t successful, but when you try new things in the market, sometimes the market doesn’t like them. It happens.

Really? Purposefully destroying a dungeon community, taking away the stuff they were enjoying before the expac makes sense to you?

If you’re going to be sensational, I think there is little value in having a discussion with you. I said it makes sense for Anet to nerf dungeon rewards if the only purpose that people were using dungeons for was to farm gold. Please listen.

Not being sensational man, I’ve been in speedrun guilds, dungeon communities. What little is left are raiding, loads quit fairly shortly after HoT, and 90% of my friendslist afks in DR pretty much all day long.

It comes back to a larger issue in the game atm. There’s very little replayability, even if you are into open world. That’s why it doesn’t make sense to me they wanted to reduce replayable content even more by making fractals a 30min daily and getting rid of dungeons entirely. There’s no upside.

Welcome to MMO’s I guess? I don’t find lack of replay limited to GW2. In fact, I think Anet does a pretty good job keeping replay fresh; there are lots of examples of it. Sure, its not in dungeons, but GW2 is more than just dungeons.

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

Einlanzer.1627:

Obtena.7952:

Hyper Cutter.9376:

Illconceived Was Na, Anet deliberately gutted dungeon rewards to drive people into fractals and raids, they literally stated this outright. I know you know that.

If all they wanted was to reduce the amount of gold people were getting, they could have increased the number of dungeon tokens, boosted the drop rate of all those obscure recipes, and so forth. But they didn’t care about that, they just didn’t want people doing dungeons. And they succeeded wonderfully, the dungeon LFG is basically a wasteland.

If Gold was the only reason people were doing dungeons, then dungeons really were not worth supporting as content in the first place.

Gold was the only reason because the content never got any attention from devs after around month 6 or so. They explicitly stated they were trying to drive players away from dungeons instead of putting resources into supporting them, which is asinine.

Yes exactly … It’s not asinine. It makes perfect sense. If people are ONLY doing content for gold, then that’s not quality content to begin with. Anet recognized that and dealt with the problem properly since they decided they weren’t going fix dungeons to be worth doing beyond being a gold faucet.

How does it make sense for a game to give people less content to play and less reasons to log in? I’m confused as to why you think it’s a good idea to reduce playtime.

It doesn’t, but those aren’t the reasons they nerfed dungeons so I don’t see the relevance.

You say it makes perfect sense to get rid of dungeons. No more dungeons = reduced playtime.

No more dungeons doesn’t not result in reduced playtime unless you don’t substitute for other content. Anet does not tell you what content you will do; you decide that.

There’s no alternative though. Fractal dailies are shorter than they were pre-HoT, dungeons not worth doing and raids on a weekly cooldown.

You can see how their attitude towards dungeons and instanced content in general is quite weird, no? It’s like they no longer wanted people to play instanced content on a daily basis.

Those might not be alternatives to you. I don’t see their attitude as weird at all. In fact, I think it goes directly to how they approach GW2 as an atypical MMO. There are LOTS of things in this game that Anet purposefully did to avoid the standard approaches to providing an MMO. I think dungeons is just another one of those. Albeit, it wasn’t successful, but when you try new things in the market, sometimes the market doesn’t like them. It happens.

Really? Purposefully destroying a dungeon community, taking away the stuff they were enjoying before the expac makes sense to you?

If you’re going to be sensational, I think there is little value in having a discussion with you. I said it makes sense for Anet to nerf dungeon rewards if the only purpose that people were using dungeons for was to farm gold. Please listen.

Not being sensational man, I’ve been in speedrun guilds, dungeon communities. What little is left are raiding, loads quit fairly shortly after HoT, and 90% of my friendslist afks in DR pretty much all day long.

It comes back to a larger issue in the game atm. There’s very little replayability, even if you are into open world. That’s why it doesn’t make sense to me they wanted to reduce replayable content even more by making fractals a 30min daily and getting rid of dungeons entirely. There’s no upside.

Welcome to MMO’s I guess? I don’t find lack of replay limited to GW2. In fact, I think Anet does a pretty good job keeping replay fresh; there are lots of examples of it. Sure, its not in dungeons, but GW2 is more than just dungeons.

I’ve yet to see another MMO that actively promotes not playing its content, but sure. xD

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

Einlanzer.1627:

Obtena.7952:

Hyper Cutter.9376:

Illconceived Was Na, Anet deliberately gutted dungeon rewards to drive people into fractals and raids, they literally stated this outright. I know you know that.

If all they wanted was to reduce the amount of gold people were getting, they could have increased the number of dungeon tokens, boosted the drop rate of all those obscure recipes, and so forth. But they didn’t care about that, they just didn’t want people doing dungeons. And they succeeded wonderfully, the dungeon LFG is basically a wasteland.

If Gold was the only reason people were doing dungeons, then dungeons really were not worth supporting as content in the first place.

Gold was the only reason because the content never got any attention from devs after around month 6 or so. They explicitly stated they were trying to drive players away from dungeons instead of putting resources into supporting them, which is asinine.

Yes exactly … It’s not asinine. It makes perfect sense. If people are ONLY doing content for gold, then that’s not quality content to begin with. Anet recognized that and dealt with the problem properly since they decided they weren’t going fix dungeons to be worth doing beyond being a gold faucet.

How does it make sense for a game to give people less content to play and less reasons to log in? I’m confused as to why you think it’s a good idea to reduce playtime.

It doesn’t, but those aren’t the reasons they nerfed dungeons so I don’t see the relevance.

You say it makes perfect sense to get rid of dungeons. No more dungeons = reduced playtime.

No more dungeons doesn’t not result in reduced playtime unless you don’t substitute for other content. Anet does not tell you what content you will do; you decide that.

There’s no alternative though. Fractal dailies are shorter than they were pre-HoT, dungeons not worth doing and raids on a weekly cooldown.

You can see how their attitude towards dungeons and instanced content in general is quite weird, no? It’s like they no longer wanted people to play instanced content on a daily basis.

Those might not be alternatives to you. I don’t see their attitude as weird at all. In fact, I think it goes directly to how they approach GW2 as an atypical MMO. There are LOTS of things in this game that Anet purposefully did to avoid the standard approaches to providing an MMO. I think dungeons is just another one of those. Albeit, it wasn’t successful, but when you try new things in the market, sometimes the market doesn’t like them. It happens.

Really? Purposefully destroying a dungeon community, taking away the stuff they were enjoying before the expac makes sense to you?

If you’re going to be sensational, I think there is little value in having a discussion with you. I said it makes sense for Anet to nerf dungeon rewards if the only purpose that people were using dungeons for was to farm gold. Please listen.

Not being sensational man, I’ve been in speedrun guilds, dungeon communities. What little is left are raiding, loads quit fairly shortly after HoT, and 90% of my friendslist afks in DR pretty much all day long.

It comes back to a larger issue in the game atm. There’s very little replayability, even if you are into open world. That’s why it doesn’t make sense to me they wanted to reduce replayable content even more by making fractals a 30min daily and getting rid of dungeons entirely. There’s no upside.

Welcome to MMO’s I guess? I don’t find lack of replay limited to GW2. In fact, I think Anet does a pretty good job keeping replay fresh; there are lots of examples of it. Sure, its not in dungeons, but GW2 is more than just dungeons.

I’ve yet to see another MMO that actively promotes not playing its content, but sure. xD

There is some comprehension issues here. Please don’t take my posts out of context. My point was that GW2 isn’t different from any other MMO in regards to content having low replay value; it’s the nature of the beast. I was NOT talking about other developers who actively promote not playing it’s content; In fact, I don’t think there is a single one that does. That would be rather stupid and I don’t see Anet doing that either. That’s clearly just you biased interpretation, giving that you think making sensational statements is a substitute for good feedback and discussion.

You say there is a larger issue of replay; that’s not really an issue special to GW2; it’s a general one with MMO’s because of the limitations of having static worlds, gear, quests, etc… There are strategies developers take to address that and Anet certain does use some. Just because they don’t do specific on dungeons does not indicate there is a replay issue with GW2. It simply means you’re not participating in the other forms of content Anet is using to keep the game fresh for players. That’s not Anet’s issue you think the game has no replay. Dungeons have no replay … they never did. yet that didn’t stop people doing them repeatedly … until the gold was nerfed.

Hence, that’s why I think Anet nerfed the gold reward. Not because they didn’t want people to play dungeons but because they didn’t want dungeons to be a gold faucet. Believe whatever you will but being silly isn’t going to make dungeons come back or even raise any flags at Anet. They have heard it before. If they got plans, something will be in the works. If not, better exercise your options as a consumer.

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

Einlanzer.1627:

Obtena.7952:

Hyper Cutter.9376:

Illconceived Was Na, Anet deliberately gutted dungeon rewards to drive people into fractals and raids, they literally stated this outright. I know you know that.

If all they wanted was to reduce the amount of gold people were getting, they could have increased the number of dungeon tokens, boosted the drop rate of all those obscure recipes, and so forth. But they didn’t care about that, they just didn’t want people doing dungeons. And they succeeded wonderfully, the dungeon LFG is basically a wasteland.

If Gold was the only reason people were doing dungeons, then dungeons really were not worth supporting as content in the first place.

Gold was the only reason because the content never got any attention from devs after around month 6 or so. They explicitly stated they were trying to drive players away from dungeons instead of putting resources into supporting them, which is asinine.

Yes exactly … It’s not asinine. It makes perfect sense. If people are ONLY doing content for gold, then that’s not quality content to begin with. Anet recognized that and dealt with the problem properly since they decided they weren’t going fix dungeons to be worth doing beyond being a gold faucet.

How does it make sense for a game to give people less content to play and less reasons to log in? I’m confused as to why you think it’s a good idea to reduce playtime.

It doesn’t, but those aren’t the reasons they nerfed dungeons so I don’t see the relevance.

You say it makes perfect sense to get rid of dungeons. No more dungeons = reduced playtime.

No more dungeons doesn’t not result in reduced playtime unless you don’t substitute for other content. Anet does not tell you what content you will do; you decide that.

There’s no alternative though. Fractal dailies are shorter than they were pre-HoT, dungeons not worth doing and raids on a weekly cooldown.

You can see how their attitude towards dungeons and instanced content in general is quite weird, no? It’s like they no longer wanted people to play instanced content on a daily basis.

Those might not be alternatives to you. I don’t see their attitude as weird at all. In fact, I think it goes directly to how they approach GW2 as an atypical MMO. There are LOTS of things in this game that Anet purposefully did to avoid the standard approaches to providing an MMO. I think dungeons is just another one of those. Albeit, it wasn’t successful, but when you try new things in the market, sometimes the market doesn’t like them. It happens.

Really? Purposefully destroying a dungeon community, taking away the stuff they were enjoying before the expac makes sense to you?

If you’re going to be sensational, I think there is little value in having a discussion with you. I said it makes sense for Anet to nerf dungeon rewards if the only purpose that people were using dungeons for was to farm gold. Please listen.

Not being sensational man, I’ve been in speedrun guilds, dungeon communities. What little is left are raiding, loads quit fairly shortly after HoT, and 90% of my friendslist afks in DR pretty much all day long.

It comes back to a larger issue in the game atm. There’s very little replayability, even if you are into open world. That’s why it doesn’t make sense to me they wanted to reduce replayable content even more by making fractals a 30min daily and getting rid of dungeons entirely. There’s no upside.

Welcome to MMO’s I guess? I don’t find lack of replay limited to GW2. In fact, I think Anet does a pretty good job keeping replay fresh; there are lots of examples of it. Sure, its not in dungeons, but GW2 is more than just dungeons.

I’ve yet to see another MMO that actively promotes not playing its content, but sure. xD

There is some comprehension issues here. Please don’t take my posts out of context. My point was that GW2 isn’t different from any other MMO in regards to content having low replay value; it’s the nature of the beast. I was NOT talking about other developers who actively promote not playing it’s content; In fact, I don’t think there is a single one that does. That would be rather stupid and I don’t see Anet doing that either. That’s clearly just you biased interpretation, giving that you think making sensational statements is a substitute for good feedback and discussion.

You say there is a larger issue of replay; that’s not really an issue special to GW2; it’s a general one with MMO’s because of the limitations of having static worlds, gear, quests, etc… There are strategies developers take to address that and Anet certain does use some. Just because they don’t do specific on dungeons does not indicate there is a replay issue with GW2. It simply means you’re not participating in the other forms of content Anet is using to keep the game fresh for players. That’s not Anet’s issue you think the game has no replay. Dungeons have no replay … they never did. yet that didn’t stop people doing them repeatedly … until the gold was nerfed.

Hence, that’s why I think Anet nerfed the gold reward. Not because they didn’t want people to play dungeons but because they didn’t want dungeons to be a gold faucet. Believe whatever you will but being silly isn’t going to make dungeons come back or even raise any flags at Anet. They have heard it before. If they got plans, something will be in the works. If not, better exercise your options as a consumer.

It was out right stated that they nerfed dungeons to deincentivize them

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Economy-Questions-Repost/first#post5602939

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-guild-wars-2-heart-of-thorns-economy/

On a side note they said here that dungeons will still have unique items, only ones i can think of are some hidden back pieces, jewelery and recipes left in them that noone needs

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

Einlanzer.1627:

Obtena.7952:

Hyper Cutter.9376:

Illconceived Was Na, Anet deliberately gutted dungeon rewards to drive people into fractals and raids, they literally stated this outright. I know you know that.

If all they wanted was to reduce the amount of gold people were getting, they could have increased the number of dungeon tokens, boosted the drop rate of all those obscure recipes, and so forth. But they didn’t care about that, they just didn’t want people doing dungeons. And they succeeded wonderfully, the dungeon LFG is basically a wasteland.

If Gold was the only reason people were doing dungeons, then dungeons really were not worth supporting as content in the first place.

Gold was the only reason because the content never got any attention from devs after around month 6 or so. They explicitly stated they were trying to drive players away from dungeons instead of putting resources into supporting them, which is asinine.

Yes exactly … It’s not asinine. It makes perfect sense. If people are ONLY doing content for gold, then that’s not quality content to begin with. Anet recognized that and dealt with the problem properly since they decided they weren’t going fix dungeons to be worth doing beyond being a gold faucet.

How does it make sense for a game to give people less content to play and less reasons to log in? I’m confused as to why you think it’s a good idea to reduce playtime.

It doesn’t, but those aren’t the reasons they nerfed dungeons so I don’t see the relevance.

You say it makes perfect sense to get rid of dungeons. No more dungeons = reduced playtime.

No more dungeons doesn’t not result in reduced playtime unless you don’t substitute for other content. Anet does not tell you what content you will do; you decide that.

There’s no alternative though. Fractal dailies are shorter than they were pre-HoT, dungeons not worth doing and raids on a weekly cooldown.

You can see how their attitude towards dungeons and instanced content in general is quite weird, no? It’s like they no longer wanted people to play instanced content on a daily basis.

Those might not be alternatives to you. I don’t see their attitude as weird at all. In fact, I think it goes directly to how they approach GW2 as an atypical MMO. There are LOTS of things in this game that Anet purposefully did to avoid the standard approaches to providing an MMO. I think dungeons is just another one of those. Albeit, it wasn’t successful, but when you try new things in the market, sometimes the market doesn’t like them. It happens.

Really? Purposefully destroying a dungeon community, taking away the stuff they were enjoying before the expac makes sense to you?

If you’re going to be sensational, I think there is little value in having a discussion with you. I said it makes sense for Anet to nerf dungeon rewards if the only purpose that people were using dungeons for was to farm gold. Please listen.

Not being sensational man, I’ve been in speedrun guilds, dungeon communities. What little is left are raiding, loads quit fairly shortly after HoT, and 90% of my friendslist afks in DR pretty much all day long.

It comes back to a larger issue in the game atm. There’s very little replayability, even if you are into open world. That’s why it doesn’t make sense to me they wanted to reduce replayable content even more by making fractals a 30min daily and getting rid of dungeons entirely. There’s no upside.

Funny, sounds exactly like my own story (community, friends and all).
That decision certainly made room for new players on the servers.

Like others already said, ArenaNet openly stated that this was also done to move dungeon players to fractals and raids, to slowly kill off dungeons.
Kind of wondering if the white knights would still defend ArenaNet no matter if they got hit by a change like this. Something that was deliberatly done to take away their favorite part of the game along with their community and friends.

Dungeons are still there, without any reason to play them apart from just rerunning them once every few weeks or so for the fun, without the cool community or good pugs, without your active friend list and all of that. Without the good rewards that made a fun thing even better. That is why people stopped playing them and not simply the cut in gold rewards.
People can kid themselves all they want. The same thing would happen to their favorite part of the game if rewards would get cut by 2/3 and further updates canceled or even full abandoned.

Shylock.4653:

Einlanzer.1627:

Raids were needed, and their popularity shows how you can’t replace controlled small group content with uncontrolled zerg content

Popularity? Do you have any proofs for that?

According to gw2efficiency

58,5% of the players have 0 Magnetite Shards = most probably, have never raided
20% of the players have > 76 Magnetite Shards = most probably, have tried raiding but weren’t very successful
10% of the players have > 240 Magnetite Shards = most probably, raids sporadic
1% of the players have > 1,271 Magnetite Shards = most probably, raids often

Content which is used regularly only by a few percent of the player base can’t be called popular. On top of that bad numbers I’m quite sure that gw2efficiency is mostly used by more ambitious players so the numbers across all players are most probably even worse.

as if raiders cant spend their shards right? I raid weekly and only have 48 shards at the moment because im spending them on vipers trinkets, your argument makes no sense.

Obtena.7952:

No more dungeons doesn’t not result in reduced playtime unless you don’t substitute for other content. Anet does not tell you what content you will do; you decide that.

Your logic is absolutely perfect.

These days I substitute the amazing mmo experience by rp’ing in LA.

or I just log out

cranos.5913:

I’ve yet to see another MMO that actively promotes not playing its content, but sure. xD

the GM here is actually suggesting a feature that would encourage you to AFK.
- http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/64349-auto-path-looping/

Set multiple points on the map and your char/mount wil run around in a loop, while you’re afk, like a true bot would.

:D

frifox.5283:

cranos.5913:

I’ve yet to see another MMO that actively promotes not playing its content, but sure. xD

the GM here is actually suggesting a feature that would encourage you to AFK.
- http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/topic/64349-auto-path-looping/

Set multiple points on the map and your char/mount wil run around in a loop, while you’re afk, like a true bot would.

:D

Haha, yeah, but BDO has a lot of AFK gameplay options.

I’m working, but also fishing atm. Livin’ the dream

Linken.6345:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

Einlanzer.1627:

Obtena.7952:

Hyper Cutter.9376:

Illconceived Was Na, Anet deliberately gutted dungeon rewards to drive people into fractals and raids, they literally stated this outright. I know you know that.

If all they wanted was to reduce the amount of gold people were getting, they could have increased the number of dungeon tokens, boosted the drop rate of all those obscure recipes, and so forth. But they didn’t care about that, they just didn’t want people doing dungeons. And they succeeded wonderfully, the dungeon LFG is basically a wasteland.

If Gold was the only reason people were doing dungeons, then dungeons really were not worth supporting as content in the first place.

Gold was the only reason because the content never got any attention from devs after around month 6 or so. They explicitly stated they were trying to drive players away from dungeons instead of putting resources into supporting them, which is asinine.

Yes exactly … It’s not asinine. It makes perfect sense. If people are ONLY doing content for gold, then that’s not quality content to begin with. Anet recognized that and dealt with the problem properly since they decided they weren’t going fix dungeons to be worth doing beyond being a gold faucet.

How does it make sense for a game to give people less content to play and less reasons to log in? I’m confused as to why you think it’s a good idea to reduce playtime.

It doesn’t, but those aren’t the reasons they nerfed dungeons so I don’t see the relevance.

You say it makes perfect sense to get rid of dungeons. No more dungeons = reduced playtime.

No more dungeons doesn’t not result in reduced playtime unless you don’t substitute for other content. Anet does not tell you what content you will do; you decide that.

There’s no alternative though. Fractal dailies are shorter than they were pre-HoT, dungeons not worth doing and raids on a weekly cooldown.

You can see how their attitude towards dungeons and instanced content in general is quite weird, no? It’s like they no longer wanted people to play instanced content on a daily basis.

Those might not be alternatives to you. I don’t see their attitude as weird at all. In fact, I think it goes directly to how they approach GW2 as an atypical MMO. There are LOTS of things in this game that Anet purposefully did to avoid the standard approaches to providing an MMO. I think dungeons is just another one of those. Albeit, it wasn’t successful, but when you try new things in the market, sometimes the market doesn’t like them. It happens.

Really? Purposefully destroying a dungeon community, taking away the stuff they were enjoying before the expac makes sense to you?

If you’re going to be sensational, I think there is little value in having a discussion with you. I said it makes sense for Anet to nerf dungeon rewards if the only purpose that people were using dungeons for was to farm gold. Please listen.

Not being sensational man, I’ve been in speedrun guilds, dungeon communities. What little is left are raiding, loads quit fairly shortly after HoT, and 90% of my friendslist afks in DR pretty much all day long.

It comes back to a larger issue in the game atm. There’s very little replayability, even if you are into open world. That’s why it doesn’t make sense to me they wanted to reduce replayable content even more by making fractals a 30min daily and getting rid of dungeons entirely. There’s no upside.

Welcome to MMO’s I guess? I don’t find lack of replay limited to GW2. In fact, I think Anet does a pretty good job keeping replay fresh; there are lots of examples of it. Sure, its not in dungeons, but GW2 is more than just dungeons.

I’ve yet to see another MMO that actively promotes not playing its content, but sure. xD

There is some comprehension issues here. Please don’t take my posts out of context. My point was that GW2 isn’t different from any other MMO in regards to content having low replay value; it’s the nature of the beast. I was NOT talking about other developers who actively promote not playing it’s content; In fact, I don’t think there is a single one that does. That would be rather stupid and I don’t see Anet doing that either. That’s clearly just you biased interpretation, giving that you think making sensational statements is a substitute for good feedback and discussion.

You say there is a larger issue of replay; that’s not really an issue special to GW2; it’s a general one with MMO’s because of the limitations of having static worlds, gear, quests, etc… There are strategies developers take to address that and Anet certain does use some. Just because they don’t do specific on dungeons does not indicate there is a replay issue with GW2. It simply means you’re not participating in the other forms of content Anet is using to keep the game fresh for players. That’s not Anet’s issue you think the game has no replay. Dungeons have no replay … they never did. yet that didn’t stop people doing them repeatedly … until the gold was nerfed.

Hence, that’s why I think Anet nerfed the gold reward. Not because they didn’t want people to play dungeons but because they didn’t want dungeons to be a gold faucet. Believe whatever you will but being silly isn’t going to make dungeons come back or even raise any flags at Anet. They have heard it before. If they got plans, something will be in the works. If not, better exercise your options as a consumer.

It was out right stated that they nerfed dungeons to deincentivize them

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Economy-Questions-Repost/first#post5602939

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-guild-wars-2-heart-of-thorns-economy/

On a side note they said here that dungeons will still have unique items, only ones i can think of are some hidden back pieces, jewelery and recipes left in them that noone needs

Yes I agree with that … Anet does not want people doing dungeons because it was unsupported content that was being done primarily to farm gold. They turn that faucet off so people stop would doing them. It makes sense because they weren’t supporting the dungeon content any longer anyways. I don’t understand what point people are trying to make by continually referring to this.

What people seem to be taking issue with is that I claim Dungeons were not good enough to stand by themselves as valuable content without the rewards they used to have. I think that’s pretty obviously true because if I’m wrong, people would still be doing them at a similar frequency now as they did before the nerf. This is why I disagree with the OP … I don’t see Anet’s behaviour to dungeons as irrational at all. They don’t want people doing them, so it’s perfectly sensible to nerf the hell out of them.

Obtena.7952:

Linken.6345:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

Einlanzer.1627:

Obtena.7952:

Hyper Cutter.9376:

Illconceived Was Na, Anet deliberately gutted dungeon rewards to drive people into fractals and raids, they literally stated this outright. I know you know that.

If all they wanted was to reduce the amount of gold people were getting, they could have increased the number of dungeon tokens, boosted the drop rate of all those obscure recipes, and so forth. But they didn’t care about that, they just didn’t want people doing dungeons. And they succeeded wonderfully, the dungeon LFG is basically a wasteland.

If Gold was the only reason people were doing dungeons, then dungeons really were not worth supporting as content in the first place.

Gold was the only reason because the content never got any attention from devs after around month 6 or so. They explicitly stated they were trying to drive players away from dungeons instead of putting resources into supporting them, which is asinine.

Yes exactly … It’s not asinine. It makes perfect sense. If people are ONLY doing content for gold, then that’s not quality content to begin with. Anet recognized that and dealt with the problem properly since they decided they weren’t going fix dungeons to be worth doing beyond being a gold faucet.

How does it make sense for a game to give people less content to play and less reasons to log in? I’m confused as to why you think it’s a good idea to reduce playtime.

It doesn’t, but those aren’t the reasons they nerfed dungeons so I don’t see the relevance.

You say it makes perfect sense to get rid of dungeons. No more dungeons = reduced playtime.

No more dungeons doesn’t not result in reduced playtime unless you don’t substitute for other content. Anet does not tell you what content you will do; you decide that.

There’s no alternative though. Fractal dailies are shorter than they were pre-HoT, dungeons not worth doing and raids on a weekly cooldown.

You can see how their attitude towards dungeons and instanced content in general is quite weird, no? It’s like they no longer wanted people to play instanced content on a daily basis.

Those might not be alternatives to you. I don’t see their attitude as weird at all. In fact, I think it goes directly to how they approach GW2 as an atypical MMO. There are LOTS of things in this game that Anet purposefully did to avoid the standard approaches to providing an MMO. I think dungeons is just another one of those. Albeit, it wasn’t successful, but when you try new things in the market, sometimes the market doesn’t like them. It happens.

Really? Purposefully destroying a dungeon community, taking away the stuff they were enjoying before the expac makes sense to you?

If you’re going to be sensational, I think there is little value in having a discussion with you. I said it makes sense for Anet to nerf dungeon rewards if the only purpose that people were using dungeons for was to farm gold. Please listen.

Not being sensational man, I’ve been in speedrun guilds, dungeon communities. What little is left are raiding, loads quit fairly shortly after HoT, and 90% of my friendslist afks in DR pretty much all day long.

It comes back to a larger issue in the game atm. There’s very little replayability, even if you are into open world. That’s why it doesn’t make sense to me they wanted to reduce replayable content even more by making fractals a 30min daily and getting rid of dungeons entirely. There’s no upside.

Welcome to MMO’s I guess? I don’t find lack of replay limited to GW2. In fact, I think Anet does a pretty good job keeping replay fresh; there are lots of examples of it. Sure, its not in dungeons, but GW2 is more than just dungeons.

I’ve yet to see another MMO that actively promotes not playing its content, but sure. xD

There is some comprehension issues here. Please don’t take my posts out of context. My point was that GW2 isn’t different from any other MMO in regards to content having low replay value; it’s the nature of the beast. I was NOT talking about other developers who actively promote not playing it’s content; In fact, I don’t think there is a single one that does. That would be rather stupid and I don’t see Anet doing that either. That’s clearly just you biased interpretation, giving that you think making sensational statements is a substitute for good feedback and discussion.

You say there is a larger issue of replay; that’s not really an issue special to GW2; it’s a general one with MMO’s because of the limitations of having static worlds, gear, quests, etc… There are strategies developers take to address that and Anet certain does use some. Just because they don’t do specific on dungeons does not indicate there is a replay issue with GW2. It simply means you’re not participating in the other forms of content Anet is using to keep the game fresh for players. That’s not Anet’s issue you think the game has no replay. Dungeons have no replay … they never did. yet that didn’t stop people doing them repeatedly … until the gold was nerfed.

Hence, that’s why I think Anet nerfed the gold reward. Not because they didn’t want people to play dungeons but because they didn’t want dungeons to be a gold faucet. Believe whatever you will but being silly isn’t going to make dungeons come back or even raise any flags at Anet. They have heard it before. If they got plans, something will be in the works. If not, better exercise your options as a consumer.

It was out right stated that they nerfed dungeons to deincentivize them

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Economy-Questions-Repost/first#post5602939

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-guild-wars-2-heart-of-thorns-economy/

On a side note they said here that dungeons will still have unique items, only ones i can think of are some hidden back pieces, jewelery and recipes left in them that noone needs

Yes I agree with that … Anet does not want people doing dungeons because it was unsupported content that was being done primarily to farm gold. They turn that faucet off so people stop would doing them. It makes sense because they weren’t supporting the dungeon content any longer anyways. I don’t understand what point people are trying to make by continually referring to this.

What people seem to be taking issue with is that I claim Dungeons were not good enough to stand by themselves as valuable content without the rewards they used to have. I think that’s pretty obviously true because if I’m wrong, people would still be doing them at a similar frequency now as they did before the nerf. This is why I disagree with the OP … I don’t see Anet’s behaviour to dungeons as irrational at all. They don’t want people doing them, so it’s perfectly sensible to nerf the hell out of them.

You mean how they now put legendary armor in raids so people will run them and move the same gold rewards to fractals so people run those?

What happen to the content should good enough stand by themselfs?

I haven’t been on these forums for a while o.o

Hi OP and anybody else, I hope you guys know that the reason why the dungeons were nerfed is strictly due to anet’s choice in making the game F2P. The fact of the matter is that they gave better rewards than essentially everything else in the game and from a business standpoint that was a hindrance to their intended aim— pressure free players into eventually buying the expansion.

So in other words they just want to make sure that every superior method of gold acquisation and fun is gated behind payment, and since they’re you know… anet… they won’t put forth time and effort into making an expansion-version of the dungeons and a f2p version or anything like that and would rather just abandon them.

Contrary to popular belief, the choice to nerf dungeons had pretty much nothing to do with them hating instanced content or anything like that and the reason that John Smith was posting such ambiguous answers on reddit last year is because being direct about something like this wouldn’t put anet as a company in too positive of a light.

tl;dr – Dungeons were nerfed because of the game going F2P, so if the expansion didn’t happen or if they for whatever reason didn’t decide to make the base game free then the dungeons probably would’ve just been left untouched with their original rewards.

Linken.6345:

Obtena.7952:

Linken.6345:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

cranos.5913:

Obtena.7952:

Einlanzer.1627:

Obtena.7952:

Hyper Cutter.9376:

Illconceived Was Na, Anet deliberately gutted dungeon rewards to drive people into fractals and raids, they literally stated this outright. I know you know that.

If all they wanted was to reduce the amount of gold people were getting, they could have increased the number of dungeon tokens, boosted the drop rate of all those obscure recipes, and so forth. But they didn’t care about that, they just didn’t want people doing dungeons. And they succeeded wonderfully, the dungeon LFG is basically a wasteland.

If Gold was the only reason people were doing dungeons, then dungeons really were not worth supporting as content in the first place.

Gold was the only reason because the content never got any attention from devs after around month 6 or so. They explicitly stated they were trying to drive players away from dungeons instead of putting resources into supporting them, which is asinine.

Yes exactly … It’s not asinine. It makes perfect sense. If people are ONLY doing content for gold, then that’s not quality content to begin with. Anet recognized that and dealt with the problem properly since they decided they weren’t going fix dungeons to be worth doing beyond being a gold faucet.

How does it make sense for a game to give people less content to play and less reasons to log in? I’m confused as to why you think it’s a good idea to reduce playtime.

It doesn’t, but those aren’t the reasons they nerfed dungeons so I don’t see the relevance.

You say it makes perfect sense to get rid of dungeons. No more dungeons = reduced playtime.

No more dungeons doesn’t not result in reduced playtime unless you don’t substitute for other content. Anet does not tell you what content you will do; you decide that.

There’s no alternative though. Fractal dailies are shorter than they were pre-HoT, dungeons not worth doing and raids on a weekly cooldown.

You can see how their attitude towards dungeons and instanced content in general is quite weird, no? It’s like they no longer wanted people to play instanced content on a daily basis.

Those might not be alternatives to you. I don’t see their attitude as weird at all. In fact, I think it goes directly to how they approach GW2 as an atypical MMO. There are LOTS of things in this game that Anet purposefully did to avoid the standard approaches to providing an MMO. I think dungeons is just another one of those. Albeit, it wasn’t successful, but when you try new things in the market, sometimes the market doesn’t like them. It happens.

Really? Purposefully destroying a dungeon community, taking away the stuff they were enjoying before the expac makes sense to you?

If you’re going to be sensational, I think there is little value in having a discussion with you. I said it makes sense for Anet to nerf dungeon rewards if the only purpose that people were using dungeons for was to farm gold. Please listen.

Not being sensational man, I’ve been in speedrun guilds, dungeon communities. What little is left are raiding, loads quit fairly shortly after HoT, and 90% of my friendslist afks in DR pretty much all day long.

It comes back to a larger issue in the game atm. There’s very little replayability, even if you are into open world. That’s why it doesn’t make sense to me they wanted to reduce replayable content even more by making fractals a 30min daily and getting rid of dungeons entirely. There’s no upside.

Welcome to MMO’s I guess? I don’t find lack of replay limited to GW2. In fact, I think Anet does a pretty good job keeping replay fresh; there are lots of examples of it. Sure, its not in dungeons, but GW2 is more than just dungeons.

I’ve yet to see another MMO that actively promotes not playing its content, but sure. xD

There is some comprehension issues here. Please don’t take my posts out of context. My point was that GW2 isn’t different from any other MMO in regards to content having low replay value; it’s the nature of the beast. I was NOT talking about other developers who actively promote not playing it’s content; In fact, I don’t think there is a single one that does. That would be rather stupid and I don’t see Anet doing that either. That’s clearly just you biased interpretation, giving that you think making sensational statements is a substitute for good feedback and discussion.

You say there is a larger issue of replay; that’s not really an issue special to GW2; it’s a general one with MMO’s because of the limitations of having static worlds, gear, quests, etc… There are strategies developers take to address that and Anet certain does use some. Just because they don’t do specific on dungeons does not indicate there is a replay issue with GW2. It simply means you’re not participating in the other forms of content Anet is using to keep the game fresh for players. That’s not Anet’s issue you think the game has no replay. Dungeons have no replay … they never did. yet that didn’t stop people doing them repeatedly … until the gold was nerfed.

Hence, that’s why I think Anet nerfed the gold reward. Not because they didn’t want people to play dungeons but because they didn’t want dungeons to be a gold faucet. Believe whatever you will but being silly isn’t going to make dungeons come back or even raise any flags at Anet. They have heard it before. If they got plans, something will be in the works. If not, better exercise your options as a consumer.

It was out right stated that they nerfed dungeons to deincentivize them

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Economy-Questions-Repost/first#post5602939

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-guild-wars-2-heart-of-thorns-economy/

On a side note they said here that dungeons will still have unique items, only ones i can think of are some hidden back pieces, jewelery and recipes left in them that noone needs

Yes I agree with that … Anet does not want people doing dungeons because it was unsupported content that was being done primarily to farm gold. They turn that faucet off so people stop would doing them. It makes sense because they weren’t supporting the dungeon content any longer anyways. I don’t understand what point people are trying to make by continually referring to this.

What people seem to be taking issue with is that I claim Dungeons were not good enough to stand by themselves as valuable content without the rewards they used to have. I think that’s pretty obviously true because if I’m wrong, people would still be doing them at a similar frequency now as they did before the nerf. This is why I disagree with the OP … I don’t see Anet’s behaviour to dungeons as irrational at all. They don’t want people doing them, so it’s perfectly sensible to nerf the hell out of them.

You mean how they now put legendary armor in raids so people will run them and move the same gold rewards to fractals so people run those?

What happen to the content should good enough stand by themselfs?

I don’t know what you mean. I’m not claiming Raids are good content either … I doubt it would be good enough to stand by itself if it didn’t have the promise of Legendary armor there either. As far as I’m concerned, they are just like dungeons, supersized.

Do you have any other example that you want to provide that support my position? I go problem with that. It’s fun when people disagree with me, then give me examples like that.

Purple Miku.7032:

So in other words they just want to make sure that every superior method of gold acquisation and fun is gated behind payment, and since they’re you know… anet… they won’t put forth time and effort into making an expansion-version of the dungeons and a f2p version or anything like that and would rather just abandon them.

That’s an interesting connection and to be honest, makes a whole lot of sense to me. It’s a way better strategy to go F2P than SW:TOR took.

I’m not sure if the conspiracy theory that ANet nerfed dungeons to get people into HoT holds up under scrutiny when we consider that there are great ways to get money in the base game. My main meal ticket at the moment is the stack of alts I have parked near the Rich Iron node in Brisban for example.

I honestly do believe ANet when they say that they nerfed the dungeons because they were adding too much liquid gold to the economy. And this all ultimately has little bearing on whether the dungeons should be given love or not, as they should; they just need to push the rewardingness into methods other than liquid gold.

Sarrs.4831:

I honestly do believe ANet when they say that they nerfed the dungeons because they were adding too much liquid gold to the economy

As posted above:

John Smith

Is the intention to deincentivize dungeons
Yes

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Economy-Questions-Repost/first#post5602939

Sarrs.4831:

I honestly do believe ANet when they say that they nerfed the dungeons because they were adding too much liquid gold to the economy.

They haven’t said that. In fact, they claimed that the liquid gold rewards were meant to be moved to fractals. They really nerfed dungeons because they wanted to make people stop doing them. Not because of gold, but because Anet just didn’t want to support dungeons anymore.

Purple Miku.7032:

tl;dr – Dungeons were nerfed because of the game going F2P, so if the expansion didn’t happen or if they for whatever reason didn’t decide to make the base game free then the dungeons probably would’ve just been left untouched with their original rewards.

Really nice point of view, I actually didn’t think about it this way. But it makes totally sense. Maybe there is also a part where they also did not push too much F2P player into dungeons when they discover the game. I actually had several friends who bought the game and quit short after they started running dungeons because they found them non intuitive. When you come from other games, skips and boss burning are not the way you are used to run dungeons.
So if MMO players wanted to try the game and face the dungeon, there are chances that it does not give the best impression of the game (if you compare to other MMO).

The sad point on this is that they anyway did not manage to attract enough player to convert from F2P to HoT apparently so dungeons were somehow cut from the game for almost nothing

The one to Rule.2593:

as if raiders cant spend their shards right? I raid weekly and only have 48 shards at the moment because im spending them on vipers trinkets, your argument makes no sense.

Try to spend that 48 shards to get to 0. Most of the players have 0 shards.

Astralporing.1957:

And again, they didn’t nerf dungeon rewards to decrease gold faucets. They did it because they didn’t want to bugfix old/develop new dungeon content.

what if i told you the real reason is free account. fotm and raid is boosted because they have mastery which mean you have to buy HoT. the dungeon isn’t really broken, they had work well enough to last for years, so what if they never improve it? no body cares.

but dungeon are now FREE CONTENT. that is the real issue.

but dungeon are now FREE CONTENT. that is the real issue.

I would to say create new dungeons in HoT zones so.

Scipion.7548:

but dungeon are now FREE CONTENT. that is the real issue.

I would to say create new dungeons in HoT zones so.

Or make dungeon masteries.

lagrangewei.8516:

Astralporing.1957:

And again, they didn’t nerf dungeon rewards to decrease gold faucets. They did it because they didn’t want to bugfix old/develop new dungeon content.

what if i told you the real reason is free account.

Nothing. Them killing dungeons just because they didn’t want to work on dungeons is consistent with their previous actions and official statements. So is the secondary reason of trying to move people to raids to boost up their initial participation rates.

Free accounts do not even factor in it.

Raids make perfect sense. They are difficult enough to keep the more Hardcore players interested long after they have done everything else but don’t take a ton of man hrs to make compared to living story and such.

With fractal difficulty much lower than before, and dungeons effectively abandoned, the general community’s level of skill is incredibly decreased. You don’t have to believe me, but I participate in a lot of trial runs of fractals/dungeons/raids with applicants and the quality of players’ micro skill is so low now.

The truth is, raids don’t require you to have good micro or truly intimate class knowledge. They do have their own set of challenges, but flawless personal execution isn’t really one of them. In the old days, players acquired decent skills by learning to solo Lupicus, low manning fractal 50’s etc. Do enough Arah solos or fractal trios on a class and you will eventually learn the most minute nuances and sharpen your play skill. It’s how certain members of the community (goku, sesshi, abe, miku, sandy, obal, dub) became true masters of their classes.

Anyway, now that the dungeon crucible (pun intended) is gone, the average player off the street is just bad. they are able to complete the raid wings because raids test you on mechanic knowledge, positioning and not tunnel visioning. So there is a new generation of player who thinks that by being able to complete the raid they are really good but when you actually test them on the depth of the class knowledge and actual play skill they fail miserably.

Make dungeons a ‘thing’ again. New players need a way to get good at the game.

+1000

15char

cranos.5913:

TBH I agree their attitude towards instanced content is extremely weird. Currently it’s somewhat favourable, but I’m pretty sure that’s gonna be rather short lived. After wing 3 and 1-2 new fractals we prob won’t see a proper update anymore for years.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Einlanzer.1627:

you need to bring dungeons back

But let’s make sure we understand who killed dungeons: we did, when we decided that 70 silver less made them not worth our time.

Right, it wasn’t purposefully chosen by the economy devs to make it feel unrewarding.

I tell ya, economists are quickly becoming one of my most hated people. Added in a ton more gold sinks and time gates into the game, made ascended harder to achieve, course the dungeon gold nerf. Then in the real world I got them telling me gas being less than 2 dollars a gallon is a horrible horrible thing.

+1 million to what Nike said. Seriously, that is one of the most on-point reviews of the game’s current PvE state I’ve seen in a long time. Hopefully something’s gonna get done about this.

Yea, it’s a lot harder to notice the lack of individual player skill over all since everything now depends on numbers, and with enough numbers, you just have to follow the crowd.

Case in point would be the HoT maps, where people were constantly complaining (and still do) about being unable to get through them solo. But then you get boss events, metas, that all require numbers to complete.
This was the nice thing about Gerent initially though, where each member had to maximize their builds and play to successfully kill the Gerent.

A lot of people going on about money though…. how many pure dungeon runners could be counted among the richest in the game, from just doing dungeons and such? Even if you got a precursor drop, you’d barely be any richer than the average player.
Even if you sold dungeon paths, you’d basically be middle class at most. The vast amounts of wealth people get are from other things.

I cant agree more to what nike said a over 90% failure rate for trials speaks for itself i would say. Dungeons were a great place for playerskill to develop and improve they require lots of actions in short time and unlike raids cooldown management out of combat movement and many more mechanical skills players nowadays seem to miss.

+1000 to what Nike and Perry said!

TL;DR: Re: Nike – Dungeon nerfs are bad but raid emphasis can ultimately produce more, better players.

Far be it from me to debate the titans of the game of the nature of player skill post-dungeon, but I think that rather than see a regression in overall player skill we’re seeing more of a dynamic shift, I believe the regressions in specific areas to be largely temporary. I miss dungeons and want them back (perhaps not as much as Nike or Perry) but I really believe the shift in emphasis to raids has been an unnecessary (the dungeon nerf is perhaps the worst high level game design decision of which I am aware) but nevertheless somewhat positive change.

I really only started playing the game seriously when raids came up, but it was certainly obvious to me that experienced dungeons runners had a significantly higher level of play than general player population, but I found that experienced pvpers and imports from other games were able to close the gap fairly quickly and become equivalently effective raiders. This isn’t so much a bad thing as a change in what it means to have pve content in Guild Wars.

I really think the introduction of enrage timers to the last remaining pve endgame content has been an immensely positive change. While many players were able to push themselves in dungeons by speedrunning, the de facto failure mechanism in fractals and dungeons was a lack of defense rather than a lack of offense, even if higher damage compositions could trivialize some encounters. Enrage timers, while far from tight, still enforce a new notion of player skill in terms of sustained excellence in damage rotation and awareness. While these players are perhaps a poor fit for traditional dungeon speed runs given the significantly higher diversity of challenge in these old content, I find it hard to believe from my played experience that the general player base has not significantly increased in ability to sustain a high level of gameplay in a certain type of circumstance.

As someone with a background in other games that heavily privilege raids, to me this is a positive change. Dungeons, as we all well know, could often be soloed unless containing mechanics specifically hardened to soloers which meant in many situations a 5 player dungeon party really only needed a single competent member. Not so in raids. While many guilds have been able to secure kills with fewer players, I have yet to see an emergence of raid boss duos which, to me, would be the equivalent from a high level difficulty perspective.

I deeply regret not having a chance to hone my class knowledge on existing content in dungeons by virtue of the content type no longer being supported, though of course I could make a greater personal effort to join in on dungeon tours.

But to me, raids seem to be rapidly shifting toward a similarly demanding environment but are doing so with added notion enrage timers and, in the long term, I can’t help but believe this is overall a positive change.

When I last played in 2012 I believe, I found dungeon difficulty unapproachable for standard players, difficulty ramped up so much higher vs what we were playing in the open world.

Coming back in 2016, somewhere along the line nerf to dungeons or boon to players I don’ t know, but the content to me seems much more balanced than back then making it now approachable for a std player.

I haven’t seen this elitism in terms of attitude. Are there speed runs? Yes, but all games with instances have that, even the open world bosses are mob speed runs.

My 2 cents is make sure when you join in that your first goal is to quickly read what everyone else is doing and assimilate along with learning what is going on. After a couple runs you to will be zipping right on through the content. I didn’t run fractals back then, but I have this time around, I was thinking they were going to be something bigger than dungeons, some are laughingly small. But they are cool none the less and between 1-100 there is a difficulty level for pretty much any player. Just got to jump into the warm water.

I think every instance in any mmo should have difficulty choices so all players can find their place. I think DDO or City of Hero’s that I’ve played did this best. The higher the difficulty the greater reward, all were good with that. GW1 I thought did a good job in training the player to get better as they went along. GW2 isn’t as linear as GW1 so I think that part of training is gone from it.

Ideally for a mmo a nice mix of open world and group instance scenarios is required. I’d love to see more instances. If there was also somehow a way to limit how many can participate in open world bosses that would probably be nice. I have some amazing FPS screen shots of those, totally unrecognizable of what is even on the screen with all the erratic colors and shapes of 100 people zerging a boss at point blank range.

Horrorscope.7632:

I haven’t seen this elitism in terms of attitude. Are there speed runs? Yes, but all games with instances have that, even the open world bosses are mob speed runs.

The so called toxicity/elitism left dungeons with the gold nerf. I alt a lot so my low ap account got kicked 2-3 a day before rewards nerf, now people are so desperate to get full party, they accept anyone. I don’t think I’ve been kicked from dungeons 3 times since the nerf.

Nightstormer.8526:

TL;DR: Re: Nike – Dungeon nerfs are bad but raid emphasis can ultimately produce more, better players.

.

Emphasis on only one type of content generates a player skill gap: those who are carried by others in dungeons or spam 111 in open world >>>>>>>>>>>>>> people who raid.

With dungeons going down the drain, the skill gap will only wider. Dungeons were perfect training ground.

I appreciate the comments in this thread thus far. I’ve been following along with it, and I think it’s spot-on. I don’t think Anet will revitalize dungeons at all. I do think we’ll see a reward update ‘eventually’ to at least make the content seem worth doing, but we won’t see any actual updates to the paths themselves. That said, I believe that the Fractals team has “gotten the picture” and is working on the right stuff to move it in the right direction. I can’t make any promises, but my reports seem to have been met with “That makes sense, we’ll work that stuff” so I’m hopeful.

I’m not sure what timeframe we can expect to see updates, though, but I know we’ll at least see new Fractal content before the end of the year (either in October or in July for one of those seasonal patches). Along the way I expect an update to the way the daily system in Fractals works to encourage more than just Swamp, and I expect an update to the way instabilities work “at some point” (to actually change the way the encounters are played rather than simply punish players and make them brute force through it). Hopefully we hear some more solid information from them as to what their exact plans are, though.

Rising Dusk.2408:

I appreciate the comments in this thread thus far. I’ve been following along with it, and I think it’s spot-on. I don’t think Anet will revitalize dungeons at all. I do think we’ll see a reward update ‘eventually’ to at least make the content seem worth doing, but we won’t see any actual updates to the paths themselves.

This was the driving factor in my decision to cut ties with this game and sadly the program that I was involved in for streaming/youtube as well. Thinking of the situation as a whole longterm, it’s pretty obvious and was obvious to me for a while now that the future of GW2 is pretty bleak unless some very large changes are made to the way Arenanet operates.

While I don’t play this game anymore and at least for now fully invest all my gaming time into Blade & Soul, there is one thing that this game and most others will not be able to match up with GW2 on — the “homely” feel that it has. I think part of the reason for that is because the community itself is more intertwined due to the friendly nature of the game which is inviting to a wider spectrum of playstyles (casual-friendly) whereas BnS for example is harsh on poor play and people that aren’t willing to invest as much time.

Okay that was pretty off topic whoops. Basically, I miss you guys… I knew that when I logged in to say hi to everybody playing SAB I’d feel compelled to do things like check forums and reddit again… but no! I must resist! I cannot get sucked back to GW2

When I see all the negativity on reddit and the forums, it fills me with mixed emotions. Part of me is satisfied to know that I made the right decision back in october, part of me feels sad because I don’t like to see friends in despair. When I see what people in general have to say about the state of GW2, the best summary I can give to describe it is that it seems like the community of this game has overall just given up; things seem to be to the point where people are either beyond or at a state of desperation and don’t know what to do.

This is just stupid tbh. The absolute biggest mistake Arenanet ever made was misjudging the significance of dungeons on this game in my opinion. It is a mistake that will forever bite them in the rear end.

TL;DR: I value many of the lessons raid teach. I believe raids can teach anything a dungeon can.

Editted for clarity.

Nightstormer.8526:

TL;DR: Re: Nike – Dungeon nerfs are bad but raid emphasis can ultimately produce more, better players.

.

Emphasis on only one type of content generates a player skill gap: those who are carried by others in dungeons or spam 111 in open world >>>>>>>>>>>>>> people who raid.

With dungeons going down the drain, the skill gap will only wider. Dungeons were perfect training ground.
[/quote]

Before I begin, let me just say that I would say that I feel it’s just as easy, in many cases, to 111 through dungeons as it is in open world, but that’s functionally impossible in raids. But that’s more an opinion and played experience than a necessary result of game design decisions. And I would love to see dungeons back as a supported game type.

Dungeons were a training ground, and a good one. But they trained a very specific type of skills. The more I reflect on Nike’s points and my own, I think we both agree that raids have been better at teaching certain abilities. The skills raids teach happen to the ones I value more highly.
For example, coming from a more traditional mmo raiding background, something I found lacking in players I meet in dungeons, fractals, and still to some degree in raids that frustrates me the most is the inability of many players to copy a build out of Google and mimic a dps rotation from a youtube guide. That’s something I’d like people I play with to be able to do. I think enrage timers help with that. I don’t think anything in dungeons really encouraged that or suggested that mindset. Now, there’s more to life than watching Nike’s warrior and guide doing it, but that’s probably a good place to start and I don’t think very many players got that far. And I think learning to dodge without also doing a rotation on top of it is a pretty useless ability. I hear a lot that when you’re dead your dps is zero. This is true, but many players do zero dps or close to it while alive as well.

Nike notes that people may not be learning to dodge as well since there aren’t oneshots. There may be some truth to that (not a dungeon expert). However, I don’t feel that dodging could be punished significantly harder in raids. I think the types of players that struggle with dodging mechanics like Gor’s knockback also aren’t capable of making the enrage timer if they do get knocked back. They die either way, but in the raid case there may be some more learning before the death.
As for having an in-depth understanding of classes, dungeons certainly did more for that. But remember, right now each wing is looking like about 20 minutes of content to speed clear. That’s significantly less content than even the limited number of dungeons in this game. I suspect as we start seeing more and more encounters we’ll have to learn more about classes. Already Wing 2 added considerations of projectile block/reflect and, to certain degree, add management and condi clear.

Though raids may not incentivize class knowledge as well, they have provided a mechanism by which some very compelling play-styles were introduced. The highly involved rotation of condition engineer, buff management of boon share chrono, and reactive nature of condi druid healer are playstyles that I feel require a good understanding of class mechanics. While in less skilled groups I usually shy away from engis and urge druids to stay on staff, I think a lot more people are trying much more interesting builds and learning a lot about class mechanics as a result.

I didn’t really enjoy dungeons in this game that much but I have really enjoyed raids, so maybe I’m not the best person to be talking about the varying strengths of each content type, but I think there’s a lot going on in raids that they may not be getting credit for yet and want to remind everyone that we do expect some more content to come in this same vein.

Horrorscope.7632:

When I last played in 2012 I believe, I found dungeon difficulty unapproachable for standard players, difficulty ramped up so much higher vs what we were playing in the open world.

Coming back in 2016, somewhere along the line nerf to dungeons or boon to players I don’ t know, but the content to me seems much more balanced than back then making it now approachable for a std player.(…)

Well AFAIK back in the early days of dungeons, many things got nerfed to make easy to get into by less experienced players. I wasn’t playing back then, but apparently many mobs who are currently elite/veteran rank used to be champions/legendary plus their overall difficulty has been toned down.
Also, with HoT and the introduction of elite specializations, players received a significant buff, effectively making all old content absurdly trivial.
Nevertheless even with dungeons being easy now, they still have a lot to offer in terms of improving our playstyle. Finishing dungeons is easy now, but trying to finish them in the most efficient way is what taught a lot of players how to handle their class properly. Speed runs and record runs still offer a level of challenge and trying to push the bar might help players discover better ways to play their class.

@Nightstormer.8526
I believe many of what you say is true, but from the little I know about you I can tell you’re definitely not an average GW2 player. I have a friend much like you who got into the game pretty recently and had no experience with dungeons whatsoever when raids came out. But he is a fast learner, he doesn’t copy meta builds mindlessly, but rather think about the game and do stuff for a reason. In these very rare cases I can see people doing just fine in raids without prior experience with endgame PvE, but there are only very few players like this. The majority of GW2’s population has to learn from experience and mistakes and only is able to learn at a slow pace. Getting into something as complex as raids can be difficult, dungeons are pretty simple to start with and offer huge room for improvement as long as you’re interested in becoming a better player and shaving off every single second from your run that you possibly can.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Horrorscope.7632:

I haven’t seen this elitism in terms of attitude. Are there speed runs? Yes, but all games with instances have that, even the open world bosses are mob speed runs.

The so called toxicity/elitism left dungeons with the gold nerf. I alt a lot so my low ap account got kicked 2-3 a day before rewards nerf, now people are so desperate to get full party, they accept anyone. I don’t think I’ve been kicked from dungeons 3 times since the nerf.

We’ll never get everyone to agree, but your reply tells me that the gold nerf actually has reaped benefits lowering toxicity. I’ve held for years now the only way to satisfy the majority is to empower players to choose their difficulty. Fractal’s seems to do just that, I’m not sure how successful that has been as I venture further within them, but the idea is sound. But the other instances could all use choice. Scale rewards based on degree of difficulty, I believe most find that reasonable as well. Not all that super special to understand. There is no one difficulty for everyone, that to me is a given. I’m amazed at how awesome some people are, the only chance at challenge they ever see comes from PvP.

^^ I wasn’t going to suggest such a thing but now it’s in the open, yes, making dungeons undesirable as gold faucets does indeed silence the players that insisted people play a certain way. It’s a controversial topic and it’s hard to ID the cause and effect but, dungeon nerfs, aggressive meta-pushing players and easy gold all made for a bad game experience in dungeons.

While lfg is less “toxic” now, it also takes way too long to fill certain parties. If I dungeon with guildies, the party size is sometimes just 2-3 people and sometimes we can’t get full party. We even duo/trio the path with lfg up and nobody joins us. By no means my guild is super good in pve, we are a bunch of noobs so it does take a lot longer for us to finish the path with less people.

Seeing how my guildies do in dungeons, that’s why I think the dungeons are better than raids for people to learn simply because they can’t do raids at all and if they can’t play in a certain content then they don’t learn from it.

Using dodges for dps rotation? I play with people who don’t even have full exotics, let alone knowing what the optimal dps rotation for their classs is. Even when they try raids, they are so bad skill wise/inexperienced that they give up soon. Abandoning dungeons is a kick in a butt for casuals, not the elitists even if the casuals don’t get kicked from parties so often now.

So basically … dungeons were never good for casual players … Before they were abused by meta-pushers and kicked from teams, now they just can’t get teams. Either way, sounds like the significant kind in the butt was for people farming dungeons specifically for gold.

I don’t feel Anet was never going to have a ‘win’ with dungeon content in this game. I still don’t think they can. Any instanced content with limited player numbers will not favour the kinds of players this game appealed to when it was released.

I don’t play dungeons anymore because of the stupidity that is pve balance and the breakbar, doing dungeons when you had to work for might and vuln as well as coordinating CC was fun now its just plain stupid and boring.

It all started to die when they introduced Phalanx Strength and continued when they decided to nerf LH ele. The breakbar and removal of unshakeable was just the final nail in the coffin to me.

An upcoming buff to rewards however high it will be will not bring me or people I frequently play with back to dungeons because rewards were only a minor thing to most of em.

The same thing applies to fractals just that they also somehow decided to completely nerf any sort of threat the enemies were, Mossman on lvl 50 used to oneshot elementalists easily now he barely hits them below scholar.

perry.9645:

The same thing applies to fractals just that they also somehow decided to completely nerf any sort of threat the enemies were, Mossman on lvl 50 used to oneshot elementalists easily now he barely hits them below scholar.

Mossman on lvl 50 used to be dead in 10 seconds with double icebow and a competent thief. For some reason you forgot this.

Rednik.3809:

perry.9645:

The same thing applies to fractals just that they also somehow decided to completely nerf any sort of threat the enemies were, Mossman on lvl 50 used to oneshot elementalists easily now he barely hits them below scholar.

Mossman on lvl 50 used to be dead in 10 seconds with double icebow and a competent thief. For some reason you forgot this.

yes but this required coordination and one kittenup could easily get you killed also 10s suure when even the record runs had 20s kills

perry.9645:

Rednik.3809:

perry.9645:

The same thing applies to fractals just that they also somehow decided to completely nerf any sort of threat the enemies were, Mossman on lvl 50 used to oneshot elementalists easily now he barely hits them below scholar.

Mossman on lvl 50 used to be dead in 10 seconds with double icebow and a competent thief. For some reason you forgot this.

yes but this required coordination and one kittenup could easily get you killed also 10s suure when even the record runs had 20s kills

In the most reductionist sense…

Old moss: Line up skills correctly and get fast kill or die.

New moss: Go afk for 10 minutes and come back to clear your inventory from autoloot.

Old moss was executionally demanded in setup, though for optimal kills on new moss there’s more of an incentive to play well longer. Longer play motivates shifts toward playing the same way longer but that isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

I’ll maintain that with the shift toward longer fights in raids new moss does provide something of value as a target dummy setup to practice rotations daily, but the elegance and beauty of burst kills is certainly lost.

There’s something to be said for sustained rotation excellence though, and it yields rewards through efficiency in a similar way that burst kills did, if it does so less dramatically.

I’ll also say after going back and doing dungeons a bit recently that they can still be quite a bit of fun. And remember, no one is making you take a PS warrior – and it probably won’t affect clear speed that significantly one way or another. Especially if you have a skilled team to run with, as I expect Perry does.

Nightstormer.8526:

In the most reductionist sense…

Old moss: Line up skills correctly and get fast kill or die.

New moss: Go afk for 10 minutes and come back to clear your inventory from autoloot.

Old moss was executionally demanded in setup, though for optimal kills on new moss there’s more of an incentive to play well longer. Longer play motivates shifts toward playing the same way longer but that isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

I’ll maintain that with the shift toward longer fights in raids new moss does provide something of value as a target dummy setup to practice rotations daily, but the elegance and beauty of burst kills is certainly lost.

There’s something to be said for sustained rotation excellence though, and it yields rewards through efficiency in a similar way that burst kills did, if it does so less dramatically.

I absolutely have no problem with the fight being longer as long as it stays a challenge at higher levels but it simply doesn’t :/

Old 50 mosman would be one hell of a challenge today because the lack of cripple and chill, for reference old mosman used to oneshot elementalists with something as simple as an autoattack . Guardians rotating through blocks to “tank” mosman was something skilled to do while now well what is there to avoid if everything hits like a wet towel thrown by a toddler.

perry.9645:

I absolutely have no problem with the fight being longer as long as it stays a challenge at higher levels but it simply doesn’t :/

Old 50 mosman would be one hell of a challenge today because the lack of cripple and chill, for reference old mosman used to oneshot elementalists with something as simple as an autoattack . Guardians rotating through blocks to “tank” mosman was something skilled to do while now well what is there to avoid if everything hits like a wet towel thrown by a toddler.

Old Mossman + weakness + chill + aegis spam + 2 IB freeze…
You clearly overestimating him. And with glancing attack he was unable to oneshot even glass ele.

perry.9645:

Old 50 mosman would be one hell of a challenge today because the lack of cripple and chill, for reference old mosman used to oneshot elementalists with something as simple as an autoattack . Guardians rotating through blocks to “tank” mosman was something skilled to do while now well what is there to avoid if everything hits like a wet towel thrown by a toddler.

There was that one video with old mossman getting facetanked by a nomad warrior, remember?