Guild Wars 2

I wouldn’t even use one of those. 10/30/0/30/0 was chosen for pure of voice iirc, which is quite useless in most situations. And about 20/30/20/0/0… i can’t tell anything, that build just seems awful.

Nikaido.3457:

AH is a grandmaster. Guanglai’s build is not AH. And usually AH builds have ton of points in the even more useless line Honor. Honor’s only redeeming traits are the vigor and symbol ones, and you only really need the symbol ones for hammer.

What I’m saying is that basically the only reason guardians put points in to Valour was for AH, so I’m not understanding why he’d put 20 in. And then you stick 10 points in Zeal so you can get 10% (or is it 15%?) more damage against burning enemies so I’m not understanding why he’d use 20 there as well.

His build just seems strange, though maybe there’s some guang-math I’m missing.

colesy.8490:

Nikaido.3457:

AH is a grandmaster. Guanglai’s build is not AH. And usually AH builds have ton of points in the even more useless line Honor. Honor’s only redeeming traits are the vigor and symbol ones, and you only really need the symbol ones for hammer.

What I’m saying is that basically the only reason guardians put points in to Valour was for AH, so I’m not understanding why he’d put 20 in. And then you stick 10 points in Zeal so you can get 10% (or is it 15%?) more damage against burning enemies so I’m not understanding why he’d use 20 there as well.

His build just seems strange, though maybe there’s some guang-math I’m missing.

It’s for Crit Damage and Retributive Armor.

colesy.8490:

And then you stick 10 points in Zeal so you can get 10% (or is it 15%?) more damage against burning enemies so I’m not understanding why he’d use 20 there as well.

His build just seems strange, though maybe there’s some guang-math I’m missing.

20 in zeal is for zealous blade which gives +5% more damage on gs.

That build loses out on why you take guardians in runs though. I much prefer running 10/30/0/0/30, still strong dps on sword/focus and you keep the consecration cooldown etc.

haviz.1340:

Broadicea.8294:

yeah like that time that there was a 17 second lupicus kill with a mesmer and 4 engineers

or wait that 5:23 CoF run with a mesmer, 2 thieves, and 2 engineers

or that arah speedrun with all dem engies

So why eles are in so-called t2?

You’re still saying same silly thing like 4 engineers.

I said 4 engineers because you guys did Lupicus with 4 warriors. I know that’s a gimmick fight, but do you really think it would be faster if you subbed out a warrior for an engineer?

My point is playing Excel Wars 2 is only the first part if you’re trying to prove a point like this. The second bit is actually demonstrating, something that as far as I know the Engineer Fan Club hasn’t done.

Brazil demonstrated the validity of swapping a warrior for his Ranger build. Kitsune demonstrated the validity of LH ele. That’s the difference between someone that wants to be taken seriously and someone that’s full of doo-doo.

Broadicea.8294:

I said 4 engineers because you guys did Lupicus with 4 warriors. I know that’s a gimmick fight, but do you really think it would be faster if you subbed out a warrior for an engineer?

My point is playing Excel Wars 2 is only the first part if you’re trying to prove a point like this. The second bit is actually demonstrating, something that as far as I know the Engineer Fan Club hasn’t done.

Brazil demonstrated the validity of swapping a warrior for his Ranger build. Kitsune demonstrated the validity of LH ele. That’s the difference between someone that wants to be taken seriously and someone that’s full of doo-doo.

We swapped one warrior for elementalist. And he did showed solo engineer dps.

haviz.1340:

Broadicea.8294:

I said 4 engineers because you guys did Lupicus with 4 warriors. I know that’s a gimmick fight, but do you really think it would be faster if you subbed out a warrior for an engineer?

My point is playing Excel Wars 2 is only the first part if you’re trying to prove a point like this. The second bit is actually demonstrating, something that as far as I know the Engineer Fan Club hasn’t done.

Brazil demonstrated the validity of swapping a warrior for his Ranger build. Kitsune demonstrated the validity of LH ele. That’s the difference between someone that wants to be taken seriously and someone that’s full of doo-doo.

We swapped one warrior for elementalist. And he did showed solo engineer dps.

Bearing in mind that in the video the boss has 25 vulnerability stacks and guang has … well I was able to count 13 stacks of might on my ancient laptop for the few frames I was able to watch of the video. Full vuln and might stacking is basically dungeon conditions.

Banners and frost spirit would increase the DPS further of course.

DaKillaOfHell.5907:

Guardians also deal lesser damage than, for example, warriors.

I missed some of the gems in this thread. It’s not true. As long as you just have one war in the group giving the banners the guardian’s damage is actually higher. Guardians won’t win solo videos like soloing the giants in orr but their damage in a buffed group is very strong.

Well for that particular boss you usually pick the war because of the bad game mechanic (debuff on the boss allowing you to do more damage if you use an instant burst skill right when it’s getting close to 50% hp meaning you get past 50% with one last debuffed hit) but I did that to demonstrate the guard sustain. You can see the real nondebuffed boss numbers when the group goes in (including an instant 58K whirling wrath right at the end).

Nikaido.3457:

DaKillaOfHell.5907:

Guardians also deal lesser damage than, for example, warriors.

I missed some of the gems in this thread. It’s not true. As long as you just have one war in the group giving the banners the guardian’s damage is actually higher. Guardians won’t win solo videos like soloing the giants in orr but their damage in a buffed group is very strong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94ts_F6jHyM

Well for that particular boss you usually pick the war because of the bad game mechanic (debuff on the boss allowing you to do more damage if you use an instant burst skill right when it’s getting close to 50% hp meaning you get past 50% with one last debuffed hit) but I did that to demonstrate the guard sustain. You can see the real nondebuffed boss numbers when the group goes in (including an instant 58K whirling wrath right at the end).

Scepter with with Chains of Light, Ray of Judgement, and Smite running in > Greatsword anti-burst non-critting Whirling Wrath.

58k whirling wrath vs. small hit box boss is surely legit. Surely.

haviz.1340:

Broadicea.8294:

I said 4 engineers because you guys did Lupicus with 4 warriors. I know that’s a gimmick fight, but do you really think it would be faster if you subbed out a warrior for an engineer?

My point is playing Excel Wars 2 is only the first part if you’re trying to prove a point like this. The second bit is actually demonstrating, something that as far as I know the Engineer Fan Club hasn’t done.

Brazil demonstrated the validity of swapping a warrior for his Ranger build. Kitsune demonstrated the validity of LH ele. That’s the difference between someone that wants to be taken seriously and someone that’s full of doo-doo.

We swapped one warrior for elementalist. And he did showed solo engineer dps.

I have no argument against elementalist being considered top tier. Have you swapped a warrior for engineer yet?

Where are the engineer-based speed clear videos? How much faster can a team go through, say CoE p3 with an engineer than without? Why has no one shown any actual accomplishments with an engineer? All I see are these arguments based on spreadsheets. But if there’s a discrepancy between the theory and the empirical results, either the theory is wrong or there’s something fundamentally broken about the class.

The excel charts mean kitten-all if you can’t put them into practice.

Broadicea.8294:

I have no argument against elementalist being considered top tier. Have you swapped a warrior for engineer yet?

Where are the engineer-based speed clear videos? How much faster can a team go through, say CoE p3 with an engineer than without? Why has no one shown any actual accomplishments with an engineer? All I see are these arguments based on spreadsheets. But if there’s a discrepancy between the theory and the empirical results, either the theory is wrong or there’s something fundamentally broken about the class.

The excel charts mean kitten-all if you can’t put them into practice.

Why till lately, only ranger clips were parodies?

This is why I’m asking for serious engineer speed clear footage.

I want guang to run his ideal dungeon group composition with serious, fully geared players and for him to post the results.

colesy.8490:

This is why I’m asking for serious engineer speed clear footage.

I want guang to run his ideal dungeon group composition with serious, fully geared players and for him to post the results.

I will invite him along with our super core Arah group. I’ve played with him on his Engineer before but we had pugs. I’ll record everything as well.

Awesome. It’ll be good to finally have the entire meta solved. Sure, it’ll take the pugs months to catch up but at least the information will be there for groups wanting to maximise their efficiency.

You have a super core Arah team?

@58k WW: Just a floating number bug. You’ll notice it on warriors WA and Fiery Whirl too.

colesy.8490:

Awesome. It’ll be good to finally have the entire meta solved. Sure, it’ll take the pugs months to catch up but at least the information will be there for groups wanting to maximise their efficiency.

To be honest: who cares what DnT say? ( -> related to pugs) This is NO attack or anything else against this guild but it is like it is…. Sure DnT is an elite guild but just because they have some good ranger it doesn’t mean that I’ll run with this profession.

I noticed it in our german forum: “DnT sad >rangers are good – don’t hate them< so I’m AWESOME with my brownbear-Longbow-Ranger”
A good player will always be good with any profession. A better team will always deal more dmg than a worse team but you shouldn’t forget in arah or ta you run 90% of your time. Even when you are able to kill stuff 20% faster you’ll lose your time while running^^

edit: 90% of the players are just following the war-mes meta but have no plan how to play their profession…. warriors are good: yeah my sword-axt condition is a must have… rangers are good: same thing. Nothing will change

Dolan.3071:

Colesy nooooooo. Never ever bring up Hundred Blades in a DPS conversation, it’s so noobish.

Also I didn’t even notice until today, but I am literally always mashing 1, even on a Warrior. I think I had issues with foes stepping out of auto attack range, or not being able to consistently cleave through mobs if the selected target goes for a wander/my auto target picks the furthest thing away.
It’s really not that bad, I play for a few hours on end and don’t even notice it, but then again, not everyone has Aussie muscles of steel

Obaby

docMed.7692:

Ah, fun thread; let it begin. Best way to look at it is by fight type;

Single Target DPS:
Thief
Warrior
Elementalist
Ranger
Guardian
Mesmer
Necromancer
Engineer

AoE Target DPS:
Elementalist ** especially with firery greatsword; LH is equiv to Warrior
Warrior
Thief
Guardian
Ranger
Necromancer
Mesmer
Engineer

Short Boss Fight:
Thief
Elementalist
Warrior
Ranger
Guardian
Necromancer
Mesmer
Engineer

Long Boss Fight:
Thief
Warrior
Elementalist
Ranger
Guardian
Mesmer
Necromancer
Engineer

wow. You really dont know what you’re talking about putting the engineer in the bottom of everything. Play one before you judge them

Well, at least you learn something new like on sword/focus guardian spamming auto is preferable over using zealot’s defense on cooldown?

How engaging that both for ranger and guardian their best bet is to spam the auto ;*(. Maybe if you run axe offhand instead of warhorn on ranger you’ll use a path of scars on cd.

Dub.1273:

You have a super core Arah team?

Yes, and none of them are skill clickers either

Anubarak.3012:

colesy.8490:

Awesome. It’ll be good to finally have the entire meta solved. Sure, it’ll take the pugs months to catch up but at least the information will be there for groups wanting to maximise their efficiency.

To be honest: who cares what DnT say? ( -> related to pugs) This is NO attack or anything else against this guild but it is like it is…. Sure DnT is an elite guild but just because they have some good ranger it doesn’t mean that I’ll run with this profession.

I noticed it in our german forum: “DnT sad >rangers are good – don’t hate them< so I’m AWESOME with my brownbear-Longbow-Ranger”
A good player will always be good with any profession. A better team will always deal more dmg than a worse team but you shouldn’t forget in arah or ta you run 90% of your time. Even when you are able to kill stuff 20% faster you’ll lose your time while running^^

edit: 90% of the players are just following the war-mes meta but have no plan how to play their profession…. warriors are good: yeah my sword-axt condition is a must have… rangers are good: same thing. Nothing will change

The idea of my (Not Eugene’s) Ranger builds and various videos were to demonstrate that Ranger has potential as a class, because a lot of people didn’t and still don’t think that Ranger has any potential to be good. I’m sure there are people running around on Ranger that don’t even have Sword abilities unlocked, and the whole idea was to show people what they were missing out on, etc.

Shinya.8014:

docMed.7692:

Ah, fun thread; let it begin. Best way to look at it is by fight type;

Single Target DPS:
Thief
Warrior
Elementalist
Ranger
Guardian
Mesmer
Necromancer
Engineer

AoE Target DPS:
Elementalist ** especially with firery greatsword; LH is equiv to Warrior
Warrior
Thief
Guardian
Ranger
Necromancer
Mesmer
Engineer

Short Boss Fight:
Thief
Elementalist
Warrior
Ranger
Guardian
Necromancer
Mesmer
Engineer

Long Boss Fight:
Thief
Warrior
Elementalist
Ranger
Guardian
Mesmer
Necromancer
Engineer

wow. You really dont know what you’re talking about putting the engineer in the bottom of everything. Play one before you judge them

I love how this part of my post gets compeltely ignored;

"** Might also add; these are with ideal builds considered (such as a hybrid zerk guardian and/or AH, etc; or utility/dps mesmer build, etc). If we were to discuss this on simply how much damage can these classes put out without considering group benefits/bringing might, blast finishers, fire fields, etc; this conversation would probably vary a bit and consequently so would my list."

Given the condition damage associated with engineers output, there are also issues here in general when comparing dungeon dps specs (see physical objects, condition caps, etc). Also, I do only have a lvl 70 engi and have only experienced much of their potential on a pvp setting (somewhere around 150+ games played on them). I also never said "how worse they are" nor said my list was the end all be all, in fact my post begins with "let it begin [i.e. the debate]"; realistically they [engineers] probably put out significantly more DPS than a mesmer in a utility spec. I’m not close minded and am always happy to check out video evidence of DPS or spreadsheets to contradict any thoughts I may have, but if you simply want to make broad generalizations and assumptions than there’s not much wiggle room left in a discussion here.

If you don’t have Mesmer at the bottom of every single DPS list then you must be high.

Mesmer’s can pump great dps if they can keep their phanatasms up. Main issue is most encounters don’t allow them to.

what does it even matter? No one can beat F/U TA path anyways.

Right, and since most encounters don’t let them, their DPS is subpar.

Mesmers are getting shafted more in the dungeon meta for guardians if reflects are required.

colesy.8490:

Right, and since most encounters don’t let them, their DPS is subpar.

Mesmers are getting shafted more in the dungeon meta for guardians if reflects are required.

You don’t play a Mesmer, do you? So stop your theorycrafting and actually play one before talking about something you don’t even understand.

DaKillaOfHell.5907:

colesy.8490:

Right, and since most encounters don’t let them, their DPS is subpar.

Mesmers are getting shafted more in the dungeon meta for guardians if reflects are required.

You don’t play a Mesmer, do you? So stop your theorycrafting and actually play one before talking about something you don’t even understand.

grabs popcorn

No, I don’t play a Mesmer at all.

The characters in my signature are just there for ****s and giggles.

…

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

The idea of my (Not Eugene’s) Ranger builds and various videos were to demonstrate that Ranger has potential as a class, because a lot of people didn’t and still don’t think that Ranger has any potential to be good. I’m sure there are people running around on Ranger that don’t even have Sword abilities unlocked, and the whole idea was to show people what they were missing out on, etc.

Yeah I know your intention and you have my respect for that^^
Other players just missunderstand such things (I pug tooooo often ~.~) they claim they are great and I’m in bad mood

colesy.8490:

Right, and since most encounters don’t let them, their DPS is subpar.

Mesmers are getting shafted more in the dungeon meta for guardians if reflects are required.

Well, I took the thread as “highest dps” and then threw my caveat of also “highest dps while providing utility”. As far as encounters go, I assumed free encounters as most dungeons and fractals can vary significantly in ideal group make-ups, tactics, etc. I agree though, adding feasability to the list would change it up quite a bit.

colesy.8490:

No, I don’t play a Mesmer at all.

The characters in my signature are just there for ****s and giggles.

…

Then you “might” know that mesmer shielding and guardian shielding is totally different? Mesmer shield is 360 degree, while guardian shield is only in front of him and nothing else. Even combo field is different. The only aspect where the wall surpasses reflection of Mesmer is just in the duration and nothing else. If you really want to surpass it, you have to invest trait points.

And after that, you also may know that there are different ways to deal damage with mesmer than just relying on phantasms and that a good mix of phantasms, shatter and conditions is much better than just playing onesided?

Well, I took the thread as “highest dps” and then threw my caveat of also “highest dps while providing utility”. As far as encounters go, I assumed free encounters as most dungeons and fractals can vary significantly in ideal group make-ups, tactics, etc. I agree though, adding feasability to the list would change it up quite a bit.

That’s fair enough. When mesmer utility is relevant it tends to be extremely powerful (Lupicus as an extreme example), plus there’s might doubling with signet and timewarp which boost group DPS quite nicely.

I probably should have said the mesmer on their own has pretty blargh DPS, their utility makes up for it whenever it’s relevant.

—

Then you “might” know that mesmer shielding and guardian shielding is totally different? Mesmer shield is 360 degree, while guardian shield is only in front of him and nothing else. Even combo field is different. The only aspect where the wall surpasses reflection of Mesmer is just in the duration and nothing else. If you really want to surpass it, you have to invest trait points.

Does it really make that much of a difference? At Lupi you can just sit in the wall, at grawl fractal you can just sit in the wall again. Feedback I’d say is just more pug friendly.

And after that, you also may know that there are different ways to deal damage with mesmer than just relying on phantasms and that a good mix of phantasms, shatter and conditions is much better than just playing onesided?

I do all of that. I have hard hitting phantasms that apply bleeds and I shatter them for extra burst in a short boss fight (e.g. slave driver). The mesmer itself still has meh DPS.

Also, how did you seriously miss “lv 80 mesmer” sitting there in my signature?

I’d love to see a four Ele team absolute mince up everything a dungeon has by alternating Fiery Greatswords for almost every encounter. Bring a Warrior for Empower Allies and banners, maybe Fear Me for some positioning, though that Ele swing sends em pretty far anyway.
I think everything would die before you noticed the lack of reflect projectiles, and if absolutely necessary I’m sure some offhand focus subbing in could do the trick on those select few encounters. Actually yeah, offhand dagger is mainly for the fire field which you’d have enough of with two other Ele’s (though I forget if any traits benefit OH dagger) but then there’s the issue of dropping the Hammer/FGS to use the focus… I dunno I think I’ll just stop there…

colesy.8490:

Does it really make that much of a difference? At Lupi you can just sit in the wall, at grawl fractal you can just sit in the wall again. Feedback I’d say is just more pug friendly.

There is a HUGE difference. It is a total different style of reflecting. If I’d spend 20 points in inspiration, I’d have a reflect ability on focus that comes at least close to that one of a guardian, (even if the duration is lesser) but this ability has crippling and some CC effect too if used. On top of that the recast is half long as wall of reflection. In Exchange, a guardian has none ability like THAT. But except for that, you already say that I’m right since you also see that there is actual no real difference though. Abilities are different, but there is no “better” or “not that good”, because of that simple fact.

colesy.8490:

I do all of that. I have hard hitting phantasms that apply bleeds and I shatter them for extra burst in a short boss fight (e.g. slave driver). The mesmer itself still has meh DPS.

Also, how did you seriously miss “lv 80 mesmer” sitting there in my signature?

I was being sarcastic, nothing more.
The mesmer has a different style of dps because he himself is no real dps class, but he can improve the group’s overall dps by a huge amount. And as I stated in my first post in this thread, there is actually no dps class, because dps is more a proof of a good performance of the whole group rather than the work of just one person. If I improve, for example, the overall damage output of the whole group by 25% but doing myself relatively low damage, I am more useful than dealing great damage but giving NO boost to the group. If the group is good, so is the class too. If the group is bad, every class turns out bad too. That’s all there is to it.

And if you understand the concept, there is a simple reason why phantasms are weak in overall: because they have an infinite amount of damage if protected properly by only casting them ONCE. For example, my pistol phantasm does about 5k damage. If I had 3 of them, it’d mean 15k damage nearly every 7 seconds, which result in about 2k damage per second without doing anything else AT ALL, but only ranging the enemy down. It is the same reason why, for example, the necromancer’s minions aren’t that great or the ranger’s pet. Non-risky damage is being weak because of that simple reason. If phantasms’d be stronger, everyone’d play them and no one would even care about another class.

The post above is so dumb. Even if it was 2k DPS, you’re not factoring in the mesmer’s garbage DPS and how that compares to other classes, including utility classes like the guardian and ranger.

It’s a pointless nitpick you make about guardian and mesmer reflect when the end result is the same. A properly used wall achieves the same.

And if you’re traiting 20 points into inspiration, you’ve gutted your DPS more than enough to be out of the question as a DPS class. In terms of DPS the swordsman or duelist outperform the warden in cooldown and interval of attacks, not to mention mobility.

And to even sit here and pretend that warriors and guardians and rangers don’t boost the DPS of the group by similar amounts while also putting out much better DPS is a joke.

As a mesmer you’re brought for the time warp and that’s it. Everything else can be replaced.

There is a HUGE difference. It is a total different style of reflecting. If I’d spend 20 points in inspiration, I’d have a reflect ability on focus that comes at least close to that one of a guardian, (even if the duration is lesser) but this ability has crippling and some CC effect too if used. On top of that the recast is half long as wall of reflection. In Exchange, a guardian has none ability like THAT. But except for that, you already say that I’m right since you also see that there is actual no real difference though. Abilities are different, but there is no “better” or “not that good”, because of that simple fact.

There isn’t a huge difference at all, in the case of both reflects you’re just camping behind the source (though feedback gives you the leeway of camping around and inside it). Cripple off of curtain is irrelevant since it’s purely used for pulling and it’s awkward to reflect with it (though it works in uncategorised fractal). Though since the guardian only has one and the mesmer has three, the more reflects are needed, the better the mesmer becomes. When I did fractal 28 a few weeks ago and we forced ourselves to wipe at the left and right seals (hammer disappeared), even though a ****-ton of chanters would spawn, dropping feedback reflected everything and then I could just drop a phantasmal warden for even more reflect goodness plus like 12k damage from the phantasm itself.

I was being sarcastic, nothing more.

I think you’ve convinced a whopping zero people with that, I don’t think you’re even fooling yourself.

The mesmer has a different style of dps because he himself is no real dps class, but he can improve the group’s overall dps by a huge amount. And as I stated in my first post in this thread, there is actually no dps class, because dps is more a proof of a good performance of the whole group rather than the work of just one person. If I improve, for example, the overall damage output of the whole group by 25% but doing myself relatively low damage, I am more useful than dealing great damage but giving NO boost to the group. If the group is good, so is the class too. If the group is bad, every class turns out bad too. That’s all there is to it.

What makes the mesmer problematic for groups is the fact that the other classes boost DPS as well. warriors can use FGJ, OMM and banners, guards can use empowering might, more vuln stacking (3 stacks off virtue, 6 off of 1h sword, 3 off of gs), rangers have spotter and frost spirit. Mesmers can use signet to double might, but an engineer can do a ton of might stacking themselves plus it has non-kitten DPS. The mesmer is literally just there for utility and TW for dps boost.

And if you understand the concept, there is a simple reason why phantasms are weak in overall: because they have an infinite amount of damage if protected properly by only casting them ONCE. For example, my pistol phantasm does about 5k damage. If I had 3 of them, it’d mean 15k damage nearly every 7 seconds, which result in about 2k damage per second without doing anything else AT ALL, but only ranging the enemy down. It is the same reason why, for example, the necromancer’s minions aren’t that great or the ranger’s pet. Non-risky damage is being weak because of that simple reason. If phantasms’d be stronger, everyone’d play them and no one would even care about another class.

so you’re saying mesmer DPS is weak but you’re just explaining why rather than arguing why they have good DPS instead.

If I had my actual computer on me I’d want to run some tests … but oh well.

Zenith.7301:

The post above is so dumb. Even if it was 2k DPS, you’re not factoring in the mesmer’s garbage DPS and how that compares to other classes, including utility classes like the guardian and ranger.

It’s a pointless nitpick you make about guardian and mesmer reflect when the end result is the same. A properly used wall achieves the same.

And if you’re traiting 20 points into inspiration, you’ve gutted your DPS more than enough to be out of the question as a DPS class. In terms of DPS the swordsman or duelist outperform the warden in cooldown and interval of attacks, not to mention mobility.

And to even sit here and pretend that warriors and guardians and rangers don’t boost the DPS of the group by similar amounts while also putting out much better DPS is a joke.

As a mesmer you’re brought for the time warp and that’s it. Everything else can be replaced.

I am sorta curious what criteria you are using for dps calculations, I posted way up there a bomb engi build that someone else made that the bomb auto was for 8k+ with 25 might and 25 vuln plus a warrior banner. If the auto is hitting for 8k with each hit (1/2 second activation with aftercast only factoring before the first bomb detonates) for that amount wouldn’t that actually be better sustained dps than a warrior under those conditions? Yes the ability to burst is slower recharge with the engi but in the same 3.5 second time frame that you can land a 100b, with that build you can land blunderbuss, bob, jumpshot + 2 static discharge toolbelt skills and possibly the prybar attack if you are fast enough. I guess what I am wondering is if people really take into account where the damage is actually done on a given fight. As the length of time increases for a fight the value of burst damage drops significantly except when that burst can finish the target off before the next cooldown. So it is clear, I am not trying to argue I am genuinely curious because I don’t have a warrior so I wonder what kind of damage they really pull. Also I am not really interested in turning this discussion into what x class brings that y class brings, this is simply from a case by case basis because obviously this group was able to pull 25 might and vuln on the target with the team comp they had. I will repost the screencap again and post the build thread so credit is given where it is due https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/PvE-Dungeon-Speedrun-Zerk-Build/first#post2560382

By stacking warriors or thieves you are getting boss kills of less than 1-2 minutes. That happens because of the frontloading they can do before reflection fields run out and they actually have to start worrying about the fight mechanics.

Burst is insufficient in this game only if you significantly increased the HP of bosses so sustained becomes more of a concern. But at the time being warriors and thieves can burst so much damage into a boss within a time frame that the sustained argument drops, and even on the issue of sustained axe warriors are only behind lightning hammer eles in sustained and the axe warriors are self sufficient by comparison.

My warrior in ruby orbs without might or vulnerability stacking on a random mob without cof sigils factored in is hitting his auto crits for 3.3-3.4k crits with the final crit of the auto chain landing easily for 5k+. That’s without stacks of might or vulnerability.

>ruby orbs

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

>ruby orbs

don’t hate, not everyone has scholar rune cash to burn

I run ruby orbs in wvw scholar is useless in a teamfight and I don’t like lyssa since I run banners and banner is a long cd.

And no I don’t want to get t3 cultural twice to get two berserker sets with just different runes when the difference is not that huge.

I want my specific look for my character and I don’t have the gold to spare on two t3 sets after my legendaries. I won’t change looks for a marginal benefit of scholar over ruby orbs.

DaKillaOfHell.5907:

colesy.8490:

No, I don’t play a Mesmer at all.

The characters in my signature are just there for ****s and giggles.

…

Then you “might” know that mesmer shielding and guardian shielding is totally different? Mesmer shield is 360 degree, while guardian shield is only in front of him and nothing else. Even combo field is different. The only aspect where the wall surpasses reflection of Mesmer is just in the duration and nothing else. If you really want to surpass it, you have to invest trait points.

And after that, you also may know that there are different ways to deal damage with mesmer than just relying on phantasms and that a good mix of phantasms, shatter and conditions is much better than just playing onesided?

You are wrong. First off, a mesmers feedback has zero advantage over a wall of reflection (in terms of reflecting things). Also, guardians should always be able to bring 20% Consecration recharge and longer duration trait since every guardian build (i consider as not stupid) has at least 10 points in last tree. Mesmers Temporal Curtain doesn’t work like WoR by the way, the reflection field is much smaller and you can still get your chest/head shooted. Aswell as it doesn’t cover your character from all sides.
And last but not least: Mesmer has terrible DPS. If we bring a mesmer to our team, it’s to make things easier. Or for timewarp if our goal was achieving a quick bosskill. If we are going really fast, i.e. speedrunning (gwscr.com meaning) we bring none. And even if we would bring one, his dps still stay worst out of all professions.

Zenith.7301:

The post above is so dumb. Even if it was 2k DPS, you’re not factoring in the mesmer’s garbage DPS and how that compares to other classes, including utility classes like the guardian and ranger.

It’s a pointless nitpick you make about guardian and mesmer reflect when the end result is the same. A properly used wall achieves the same.

And if you’re traiting 20 points into inspiration, you’ve gutted your DPS more than enough to be out of the question as a DPS class. In terms of DPS the swordsman or duelist outperform the warden in cooldown and interval of attacks, not to mention mobility.

And to even sit here and pretend that warriors and guardians and rangers don’t boost the DPS of the group by similar amounts while also putting out much better DPS is a joke.

As a mesmer you’re brought for the time warp and that’s it. Everything else can be replaced.

Read properly and afterwards you can post. Thanks.

colesy.8490:

There isn’t a huge difference at all, in the case of both reflects you’re just camping behind the source (though feedback gives you the leeway of camping around and inside it). Cripple off of curtain is irrelevant since it’s purely used for pulling and it’s awkward to reflect with it (though it works in uncategorised fractal). Though since the guardian only has one and the mesmer has three, the more reflects are needed, the better the mesmer becomes. When I did fractal 28 a few weeks ago and we forced ourselves to wipe at the left and right seals (hammer disappeared), even though a ****-ton of chanters would spawn, dropping feedback reflected everything and then I could just drop a phantasmal warden for even more reflect goodness plus like 12k damage from the phantasm itself.

You are being illogical here. You said at the start, that guardian reflect is better than mesmer reflect, and now you already decline your own opinion.

colesy.8490:

What makes the mesmer problematic for groups is the fact that the other classes boost DPS as well. warriors can use FGJ, OMM and banners, guards can use empowering might, more vuln stacking (3 stacks off virtue, 6 off of 1h sword, 3 off of gs), rangers have spotter and frost spirit. Mesmers can use signet to double might, but an engineer can do a ton of might stacking themselves plus it has non-kitten DPS. The mesmer is literally just there for utility and TW for dps boost.

But then, you already accept my opinion, because I say nearly the same. Dps is based on the group compilation, and here, it depends on how much supporters you already use in a group. It is therefore no wonder that in a group with a lot of supporters, a Mesmer isn’t that great as he was the only one.

colesy.8490:

so you’re saying mesmer DPS is weak but you’re just explaining why rather than arguing why they have good DPS instead.

If I had my actual computer on me I’d want to run some tests … but oh well.

Lol.
I said phantasms are weak, not mesmer dps is weak. If you don’t see any difference, you didn’t understand that a Mesmer consists of more than just phantasms. I meant their survivability. If even one is destroyed, it means more damage loss. But if they stay, they themselves deal already 2k unconditional damage per second without you even doing anything besides. If you also attack with skills, however, the dps is higher indeed.

Dub.1273:

You are wrong. First off, a mesmers feedback has zero advantage over a wall of reflection (in terms of reflecting things). Also, guardians should always be able to bring 20% Consecration recharge and longer duration trait since every guardian build (i consider as not stupid) has at least 10 points in last tree. Mesmers Temporal Curtain doesn’t work like WoR by the way, the reflection field is much smaller and you can still get your chest/head shooted. Aswell as it doesn’t cover your character from all sides.
And last but not least: Mesmer has terrible DPS. If we bring a mesmer to our team, it’s to make things easier. Or for timewarp if our goal was achieving a quick bosskill. If we are going really fast, i.e. speedrunning (gwscr.com meaning) we bring none. And even if we would bring one, his dps still stay worst out of all professions.

I won’t say anything against this. I didn’t even say once that Mesmer would have good dps. But if you guys do an interpretation of my posts without any real basic, I can’t help you. I only said, that WoR and reflection of the Mesmer are being different, and that a Mesmer has multiple ways of reflecting.

People need to stop making baseless assertions about DPS without any understanding of activation times or aftercasts.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

People need to stop making baseless assertions about DPS without any understanding of activation times or aftercasts.

You know my Hundred Blades does a big number.

kulle.6542:

What is the current best to worst dungeon dps class list?

Wait… let me chack my damage meter.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

People need to stop making baseless assertions

GIGANTIC_FRICKIN_IRONICAT.PNG

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

People need to stop making baseless assertions about DPS without any understanding of activation times or aftercasts.

And you need to stop making assertions without video evidence.

Maybe then Brazil wouldn’t have to bail you out every time.

It seems to be that Guang doesn’t have the resources available to him (i.e. 4 competent players) to make videos that people demand. I do not think it is that unreasonable for him to not provide them. Not everyone can run at the standards that people would expect in some kind of ‘showcase’ run.