Guild Wars 2

Kanako Davis.5364:

My PUG teammates never told me that they need help or that it is their first time. I had to do the first step. It is always me who is asking them if they need help and usually they’re grateful for it but with a player base we have right now people are afraid to ask for help.

Is that their fault? Yes and no. I have always been honest about my level of familiarity with a dungeon when I join a party, whether it be guild or PUG, but that’s me. However, I can understand the other side of this coin. Many PUGs are too intimidated to admit that they are green, which is a direct outgrowth where this game is heading: hardcore “endgame” content with a player base to match.

Kanako Davis.5364:

I think thats the part where some change needs to happen. Not the dungeon system. As for me dungeons could get a little more difficult.

The difficulty of these dungeons have been disproportional to their level since launch. Now that AC has been reworked, dungeon level is completely superfluous. For instance, CoF path 1 is a cake walk for even a marginally decent level 75 player. This is the level of difficulty that should currently exist in AC, a level 35 dungeon.

So yes, certain paths definitely need a boost in complexity (a different beast than “difficulty”), but make such complexity proportionate to the level of the dungeon. What exists now is a patchwork of dungeon paths that have virtually no linear progression in complexity. How can we when AC, a level 35 dungeon, is now widely considered one the hardest?

I didn’t say that it’s the fault of those players. I said it’s the fault of the community and those “elitist” players who only accept warriors or whatever.

Furthermore explorable dungeons are “end game” content. Therefore it is supposed to be difficult/complex whatever you want to call it. (Complexity is equal to difficulty for some people ). Also i never said that i think CoF p1 is good as it is. It’s a shame for a dungeon in explorable mode to be that easy. In a post a few sites back i think i said that the new AC exp should be the baseline of complexity/difficulty and the other dungeons should get harder building on top of that.

Kanako Davis.5364:

Furthermore explorable dungeons are “end game” content.

Not all of them (ostensibly). We have 5 out of 9 dungeons that are sub-80. If this is really the direction that the game is going, then the developers need to remove dynamic leveling from all dungeons and make them all suitable for level 80 like HotW, CoE, arah and fractals. You will never convince me and countless others that AC is “end game content”, not while it has a level 35 label.

Well i didn’t really mean endgame as in level 80 it is more about the experience. If you happen to no be experience in dungeons you still can make those dungeons easily by trying. It will be hard and you will wipe but it is doable. How do you think people figured out AC the first time?
All this arguing is about the fact that people are used to the pre-patch AC and that it was easy and they did not have to learn anything. Now they have to think and do a little teamwork. I bet that nobody will have difficulties to do AC as long as they are willing to try and willing to learn.

carabidus.6214:

What exists now is a patchwork of dungeon paths that have virtually no linear progression in complexity. How can we when AC, a level 35 dungeon, is now widely considered one the hardest?

Considered by whom? Under what conditions?

Please don’t presume to speak for all of “us”, especially when making such broad generalizations. (Especially in a thread that was centered around debunking such nonsense).

carabidus.6214:

Kanako Davis.5364:

Furthermore explorable dungeons are “end game” content.

Not all of them (ostensibly). We have 5 out of 9 dungeons that are sub-80. If this is really the direction that the game is going, then the developers need to remove dynamic leveling from all dungeons and make them all suitable for level 80 like HotW, CoE, arah and fractals. You will never convince me and countless others that AC is “end game content”, not while it has a level 35 label.

They’ve already stated that they don’t want you to play one game while leveling, and then hit endgame and play another game. Thus, what you find at low levels is also what you’d expect to find at 80. Seems to me like AC Ex supports this, since it’s a dungeon that can be done at 35 but offers the same types of challenges as a level 80 explorable.

I don’t quite understand the problem that people are having with AC. I still remember when people were crying that Kholer was too hard. Not only that, but AC was not a “training ground for explorable dungeons” before, either. Every dungeon is completely different from one another, and they all have different encounters and tactics. None of them are a progression from one to the next, and the new AC doesn’t change that.

I understand that players want there to be a difficulty progression between the dungeons. But that’s never been there, as evidenced by CoF P1 being the absolute most farmed dungeon path, and SE never getting love.

Mourningcry.9428:

carabidus.6214:

What exists now is a patchwork of dungeon paths that have virtually no linear progression in complexity. How can we when AC, a level 35 dungeon, is now widely considered one the hardest?

Considered by whom? Under what conditions?

Please don’t presume to speak for all of “us”, especially when making such broad generalizations. (Especially in a thread that was centered around debunking such nonsense).

If it is nonsense, then why is the dungeon subforum festooned with posts about AC being too difficult for a party of new players? I never presumed to speak for anyone. I speak for myself. The fact that the community is starkly and passionately divided on this issue is self evident and cannot be simply dismissed.

AlietteFaye.7316:

Not only that, but AC was not a “training ground for explorable dungeons” before, either.

There doesn’t have to be a billboard posted above the dungeon entrance that reads “training dungeon”. The former AC was presumed to be a training dungeon because it is the first explorable that is available to a new player.

AlietteFaye.7316:

Every dungeon is completely different from one another, and they all have different encounters and tactics.

True

AlietteFaye.7316:

None of them are a progression from one to the next, and the new AC doesn’t change that.

Then why bother giving any dungeon a label? I’ll say this again: if this is really what the community wants, then let’s cut the BS and make every dungeon like fractals where you need to be 80 to enter.

AlietteFaye.7316:

I understand that players want there to be a difficulty progression between the dungeons. But that’s never been there, as evidenced by CoF P1 being the absolute most farmed dungeon path, and SE never getting love.

…and this underscores the problem…

I must say, this community has really changed a lot since launch. I never thought I would see so many people so vehemently against keeping at least ONE dungeon moderately challenging for brand new players. Now EVERYTHING has to be “leet or gtfo”. Very disappointing…

carabidus.6214:

AlietteFaye.7316:

Not only that, but AC was not a “training ground for explorable dungeons” before, either.

There doesn’t have to be a billboard posted above the dungeon entrance that reads “training dungeon”. The former AC was presumed to be a training dungeon because it is the first explorable that is available to a new player.

AlietteFaye.7316:

Every dungeon is completely different from one another, and they all have different encounters and tactics.

True

AlietteFaye.7316:

None of them are a progression from one to the next, and the new AC doesn’t change that.

Then why bother organizing dungeons into a hierarchical leveling system: 35, 45, 55, 65, 75, 80? I’ll say this again: if this is really what the community wants, then let’s cut the BS and make every dungeon like fractals where you need to be 80 to enter.

AlietteFaye.7316:

I understand that players want there to be a difficulty progression between the dungeons. But that’s never been there, as evidenced by CoF P1 being the absolute most farmed dungeon path, and SE never getting love.

…and this underscores the problem…

I must say, this community has really changed a lot since launch. I never thought I would see so many people so vehemently against keeping at least ONE dungeon moderately challenging for brand new players. Now EVERYTHING has to be “leet or gtfo”. Very disappointing…

AlietteFaye.7316:

Not only that, but AC was not a “training ground for explorable dungeons” before, either.

There doesn’t have to be a billboard posted above the dungeon entrance that reads “training dungeon”. The former AC was presumed to be a training dungeon because it is the first explorable that is available to a new player.

AlietteFaye.7316:

Every dungeon is completely different from one another, and they all have different encounters and tactics.

True

AlietteFaye.7316:

None of them are a progression from one to the next, and the new AC doesn’t change that.

Then why bother organizing dungeons into a hierarchical leveling system: 35, 45, 55, 65, 75, 80? I’ll say this again: if this is really what the community wants, then let’s cut the BS and make every dungeon like fractals where you need to be 80 to enter.

AlietteFaye.7316:

I understand that players want there to be a difficulty progression between the dungeons. But that’s never been there, as evidenced by CoF P1 being the absolute most farmed dungeon path, and SE never getting love.

…and this underscores the problem…

I must say, this community has really changed a lot since launch. I never thought I would see so many people so vehemently against keeping at least ONE dungeon moderately challenging for brand new players. Now EVERYTHING has to be “leet or gtfo”. Very disappointing…

carabidus.6214:

I never thought I would see so many people so vehemently against keeping at least ONE dungeon moderately challenging for brand new players. Now EVERYTHING has to be “leet or gtfo”. Very disappointing…

I’m not sure the old AC Ex was even “moderately challenging” for new players. Considering the Spider Queen’s AoEs did basically no damage, and her only threat was from melee, you could skip Kohler, run through the Scepter Picking, use the same tactics that are used now on the burrows, just circle strafe the Howling King, and completely ignore everything the Ghost Eater did, the only threats in AC Ex pre-patch were Kohler’s pulls and the large-cone howl of the Colossus Rumblus. I guess it depends on your definition, though.

Maestro.5376:

I’m not sure the old AC Ex was even “moderately challenging” for new players. Considering the Spider Queen’s AoEs did basically no damage, and her only threat was from melee, you could skip Kohler, run through the Scepter Picking, use the same tactics that are used now on the burrows, just circle strafe the Howling King, and completely ignore everything the Ghost Eater did, the only threats in AC Ex pre-patch were Kohler’s pulls and the large-cone howl of the Colossus Rumblus. I guess it depends on your definition, though.

Absolutely agree. The mechanics in the former AC were not very interesting or instructive. On the one hand, I am very glad to see the devs are actively engaged in reworking content and at least trying to make the game a more interesting place to be. Their attention to detail is what keeps me in the game. But in doing so, I believe they should constrain the difficulty to a level appropriate with the level of the dungeon. Otherwise, they need to consider removing the leveling system and make all dungeons end-game content.

Maybe there really was a problem with uber-experienced players with exotics blasting through the old AC in 10 minutes. But then, how do we handle the rewards for such “easy” dungeons?

When the devs said that all dungeons are going to need a second look, they were not kidding…

carabidus.6214:

I must say, this community has really changed a lot since launch. I never thought I would see so many people so vehemently against keeping at least ONE dungeon moderately challenging for brand new players. Now EVERYTHING has to be “leet or gtfo”. Very disappointing…

I’m not being “leet or gtfo” at all. I’m just saying that what the community is complaining about is something that was never there to begin with. I honestly think that the dungeon is easier now. My whole Guild feels like it is. It’s of our opinion that the changes actually are pretty good. They attempted to add actual mechanics to the bosses instead of them just having giant health pools while doing nothing particularly boss-like.

I don’t understand where you are getting the idea that I’m being “leet or gtfo” in fact. I volunteered my time to demonstrate that a group of complete strangers can complete this dungeon at the bare minimum level. I am trying to help the community see that the dungeon is not nearly as bad as they’re making it out to be. It’s just a matter of getting readjusted to it.

As the devs have said themselves, it’s new content. Of course it is going to be challenging for a lot of people for the first few times. But after they relearn it, they’ll learn how to better deal with it and it will be just fine again. It’s not a matter of them having to nerf anything, it’s a matter of learning what to do now that it’s different.

That being said, Grast is the only frustrating part of any encounter, and that’s only because he’s currently bugged. It’s clear that they do not wish to have him in this state and that they’ll fix him.

carabidus.6214:

Then why bother organizing dungeons into a hierarchical leveling system: 35, 45, 55, 65, 75, 80? I’ll say this again: if this is really what the community wants, then let’s cut the BS and make every dungeon like fractals where you need to be 80 to enter.

I honestly can’t tell you the answer to this. That is a decision on ANet’s part, and I wholeheartedly agree. In fact, I feel like the game should have capped out at level 30. That is the point where you stop unlocking the ability to get more skills, and have a majority of the utilities you want unlocked. Everything past level 30 feels like it is tacked on for the heck of it, and it’s one of the big reasons that people feel like there wasn’t a good progression.

You can’t honestly say that you feel like there is a progression of difficulty between TA and SE. You can’t say that for CoF to CoE, or any dungeon to any dungeon. The difficulty range is so absurdly different per dungeon per path that there was no progression at all. And that isn’t on the fault of the players, it is on ANet. That’s their decision in making all content end-game content. It’s not new. It didn’t just appear with the AC changes. That’s the only point that I was making.

I’ve already done this test with experienced players, and not all were 35, it was me a 35, the rest ranging from 40-48 and it was still not do-able at all. 5 hours of testing, rethinking tactics, trying different paths, and not a single path completion. I reported my findings in the AC thread already. If you really insist on smashing your head against a wall for the sake of more tests, be my guest I’ll go. I already outleveled it on the alt I was doing it on just by running CM story and expl a few times so I’ll have to make another alt or something.

carabidus.6214:

Otherwise, they need to consider removing the leveling system and make all dungeons end-game content.

I think a lot of people are still stuck in the old mindset of “Higher level = significantly more character power.” I think Anet has made it sufficiently clear that that isn’t the case. In fact, in this game more than all others, I feel like Level is kind of just a placeholder. It’s just a way to logically gate content so players do not have access to the entire world all at once and get lost.

They had said again and again that they don’t want “endgame.” They want the entire game to play the same, from start to finish. Thus, it’d be logical that dungeons would be scattered throughout the level gaps. These level gaps aren’t difficulty checks. That’s the reason why not all the dungeons are end-game. All the dungeons were meant to feel unique with their own challenges and obstacles. A level 80 explorable is supposed to challenge level 80s the same amount that a level 35 explorable challenges level 35s.

Nay of the Ether.8913:

I’ve already done this test with experienced players, and not all were 35, it was me a 35, the rest ranging from 40-48 and it was still not do-able at all. 5 hours of testing, rethinking tactics, trying different paths, and not a single path completion. I reported my findings in the AC thread already. If you really insist on smashing your head against a wall for the sake of more tests, be my guest I’ll go. I already outleveled it on the alt I was doing it on just by running CM story and expl a few times so I’ll have to make another alt or something.

For this, I’d direct you over to our video thread. Perhaps the video will reveal some insight on successful ways to complete the instance.

I would hate to be lvl 80 to run explorable dungeons, I love running them at level.

Maestro.5376:

Nay of the Ether.8913:

I’ve already done this test with experienced players, and not all were 35, it was me a 35, the rest ranging from 40-48 and it was still not do-able at all. 5 hours of testing, rethinking tactics, trying different paths, and not a single path completion. I reported my findings in the AC thread already. If you really insist on smashing your head against a wall for the sake of more tests, be my guest I’ll go. I already outleveled it on the alt I was doing it on just by running CM story and expl a few times so I’ll have to make another alt or something.

For this, I’d direct you over to our video thread. Perhaps the video will reveal some insight on successful ways to complete the instance.

I noticed you mostly ran with the dream team, now try it without a mesmer, ele, or guardian. It’s easy to claim these instances are so do-able when everyone is playing them with the dream team setup that the instances were obviously deigned around. Try doing it on necro, engi, or thief. I’m willing to bet your results will be different. I’d also like to add these are perfectly balanced for lvl 80’s. I can do path 2 in half the time of old AC path 2 now as a lvl 80, even with the bugged boss. Which reinforces my position that these dungeons are not designed for at-level and they need to advertise them as such.

What is so good about a mesmer? Time warp? I DIDNT USE IT!!

Also, I love how you don’t mention ranger.

Nay of the Ether.8913:

Maestro.5376:

Nay of the Ether.8913:

I’ve already done this test with experienced players, and not all were 35, it was me a 35, the rest ranging from 40-48 and it was still not do-able at all. 5 hours of testing, rethinking tactics, trying different paths, and not a single path completion. I reported my findings in the AC thread already. If you really insist on smashing your head against a wall for the sake of more tests, be my guest I’ll go. I already outleveled it on the alt I was doing it on just by running CM story and expl a few times so I’ll have to make another alt or something.

For this, I’d direct you over to our video thread. Perhaps the video will reveal some insight on successful ways to complete the instance.

I noticed you mostly ran with the dream team, now try it without a mesmer, ele, or guardian. It’s easy to claim these instances are so do-able when everyone is playing them with the dream team setup that the instances were obviously deigned around. Try doing it on necro, engi, or thief. I’m willing to bet your results will be different. I’d also like to add these are perfectly balanced for lvl 80’s. I can do path 2 in half the time of old AC path 2 now as a lvl 80, even with the bugged boss. Which reinforces my position that these dungeons are not designed for at-level and they need to advertise them as such.

Hate to burst your bubble, but Pre-40 Mesmer is one of the weakest classes in the game. Mesmers are late bloomers, and before they hit 40 their main utility is Time Warp, which was not used during the video.

We also did stat comparisons, and discovered that scaled down, level 80s in exotics did not have significantly higher stats than comparable level 35s in masterwork gear. But yeah, sure, we’ll swap out the Guardian for a Necro or Thief when we do Path 2 or Path 3 since one of our members has one at about the right level.

I would like to thoroughly thank you all for your efforts and the video. I thought it was great. The most remarkeable thing I thought was that you killed (almost) all the mobs on the way. It looks much more like a daunting adventure you’re undertaking than what dungeon runs are for most people – a rush and in the old ACs case a bit of a walk in the park.

I’ve only been playing dungeons for the last month or so and to be honest, the way I’ve learned them was exactly the way I would not have liked to in hindsight. It’s all skipping mobs and rushing through content as fast as possible.

I believe your video proves multiple points:
- with cordination and an understanding of how party members compliment each (combos, buffs, debuffs etc.) the dungeon is absolutely possible even for the minimum lvl (which will not be the average, I mean you will be lvl 36 by the time you completed the first path)
- patience is this missing virtue that most players lack
- dungeons can be challenging and lot of fun

Speaking from my own experience I find it remarkable that it can take a lvl 80 only pug group, with the average rate of communication for such a setup (i.e. little more than – skip kohler?) just as long, or even longer to complete this dungeon, if the endeavour doesn’t fail entirely, say due to the party leader or too many members rage quitting.

At the same time you have killed almost all the mobs in the dungeon and didn’t wipe once. I bet the loot and gil you have received thus was quite considerable from a level 35 perspective.

I’m taking from this experiment the following: I will re-evaluate what I want from dungeons and I will try to follow your example and attempt to find like minded people for my next runs who want to actually experience the content, that was worked on for so long, I shall see how that’ll work out.

Best of Luck for the other paths, I hope Grast doesn’t bug out too much on you.

@Matzepeng

Much thanks! Great observations. Thanks!

I’m still waiting on them to run it without a dream team, whether they used time warp or not they still ran mostly what is considered a “balanced” team. While we have blasted it down both pre and post patch as an all-necro team, we also coordinated our builds to the last trait and utility. Do it with random pugs…at level…with all the classes you refused to use in your videos. You guys are obviously used to playing together and were on voice. i could take any number of my regular guildies, ask them to make a lvl 35 character with crappy gear and run this. My gripe was never that the dungeon was poorly reworked, hell I love the new mechanics, it’s just not reworked for lvl 35’s…it’s reworked for lvl 80’s downscaled or high geared coordinated teams of 35’s, which obviously you guys were. Which falls to whoever controls the downscaling system…and of coursewhoever thought it was a good diea to make paper armored NPC’s and high HP graveling burrows. Fix those things and AC expl will be challenign and fun for all but do-able at level. ( wanted to add I LOVE Ghost Eater now, my favorite boss evah! lol the others can go burn in hell)

Maestro.5376:

Nay of the Ether.8913:

Maestro.5376:

Nay of the Ether.8913:

I’ve already done this test with experienced players, and not all were 35, it was me a 35, the rest ranging from 40-48 and it was still not do-able at all. 5 hours of testing, rethinking tactics, trying different paths, and not a single path completion. I reported my findings in the AC thread already. If you really insist on smashing your head against a wall for the sake of more tests, be my guest I’ll go. I already outleveled it on the alt I was doing it on just by running CM story and expl a few times so I’ll have to make another alt or something.

For this, I’d direct you over to our video thread. Perhaps the video will reveal some insight on successful ways to complete the instance.

I noticed you mostly ran with the dream team, now try it without a mesmer, ele, or guardian. It’s easy to claim these instances are so do-able when everyone is playing them with the dream team setup that the instances were obviously deigned around. Try doing it on necro, engi, or thief. I’m willing to bet your results will be different. I’d also like to add these are perfectly balanced for lvl 80’s. I can do path 2 in half the time of old AC path 2 now as a lvl 80, even with the bugged boss. Which reinforces my position that these dungeons are not designed for at-level and they need to advertise them as such.

Hate to burst your bubble, but Pre-40 Mesmer is one of the weakest classes in the game. Mesmers are late bloomers, and before they hit 40 their main utility is Time Warp, which was not used during the video.

We also did stat comparisons, and discovered that scaled down, level 80s in exotics did not have significantly higher stats than comparable level 35s in masterwork gear. But yeah, sure, we’ll swap out the Guardian for a Necro or Thief when we do Path 2 or Path 3 since one of our members has one at about the right level.

You’re playing mesmer horribly wrong, my mesmer 35-40 and higher was a beast, and still is and I’ve ran nothing but magic find gear the whole time.