Guild Wars 2

Let me start by saying a group with only lvl 45 characters is nearly impossible to extremely frustrating to complete any path and if the succeed they end up paying at least a minimum of ~11 silver on gear repairs.

Paths with like 20+ mobs that spam AOE bombs every second, Riflemen that shot you per 1k per shot from 1200+ range , bosses that keep you on permanent knockdown , permanent slow with skills that do 400+ damage per second and 1 million ridiculous dots.

Why does this happen ?? And why label it as a lvl 45 dungeon while you need at least lvl 70+ to make your experience less frustrating ?

I was just about to post somethign about this, I was wondering if they were ever going to fix that mess…no let me rephrase…that hot nasty mess of a dungeon known as CM. It is BEYOND ridiculous. I was there for the speedfarms that warranted the nerfs, but as it is now, it is beyond ridiculously overtuned. WTB a viable Cm dungeon PLEASE!

The rest of my post assumes you’re talking about story mode.

CM story is certainly not impossible for lvls 45s. I know because I’ve done it. It is, however, disproportionately hard given most other story modes at their respective levels.

On the one hand part of me is thinking “yeah, tune it down a bit so it’s a bit more leveled with other dungeons”.

On the other hand, it is a completely optional dungeon. Nobody said you HAD to do it at level 45 (it’s easy at level 80), it is possible at level 45, and it’s not a bad idea to have optional challenges in the game with different levels of difficulty.

So, you know, I’m fine with either.

ProxyDamage.9826:

The rest of my post assumes you’re talking about story mode.

CM story is certainly not impossible for lvls 45s. I know because I’ve done it. It is, however, disproportionately hard given most other story modes at their respective levels.

On the one hand part of me is thinking “yeah, tune it down a bit so it’s a bit more leveled with other dungeons”.

On the other hand, it is a completely optional dungeon. Nobody said you HAD to do it at level 45 (it’s easy at level 80), it is possible at level 45, and it’s not a bad idea to have optional challenges in the game with different levels of difficulty.

So, you know, I’m fine with either.

Why would you assume he is talking about story mode? o.O

He specifically mentions level 45.

Anyway, OP, CM can be hard the first few times you do it, just like every other dungeon. Try bringing a lot of condition removal and projectile reflection and you should have a much easier time.

Other than that I can’t really say anything. You are obviously never gonna get a nerf to the dungeon.

So when they change it to be easier, people will just complain its too easy, like CoF, demand it be harder, demand the speedruns stop, demand that now people will only take warriors or something.

If they make it harder, people complain. If they make it easier, people complain.

My problem is not about that i don’t like a challenging dungeon. My problem is, that in a game with no designated healing and tank class, in a game where Anet so proudly claims “Everyone can tank” the reality is that not everyone can in such level of difficulty dungeons.

Unless you have guardians / mesmer etc to provide a bit amount of shields, protection and projectile reflection the dungeon is really frustrating. Why should i be restrained by team setups ?? Wasn’t your motto Anet that any team setup could do any dungeon with no problems ? Yes some setups maybe are better than others but i didn’t expect it to be at the point of unless you have this and this hero in your team you are most likely to fail.

My first 2 runs i did it with some friends. 2 rangers , 1 necromancer, 1 elementalist and 1 mesmer in group. It was nearly impossible to survive 5 minutes without at least 3 people dying…

I play a ranger and i run with full exotic gear with toughness, vitality, precision (obtained specifically for dungeons like that) and i still get 2 shotted by every boss in there, i still have hard time surviving in there and i have people bashing at me when i pug “omg noob ranger you are a glass cannon, rangers useless anywhere”.

That’s my problem!. I enjoy a challenging dungeon. But a dungeon that offers real challenge, not mindlessly trying to dodge roll through 20+ mobs and find the best spot to use an Ash legion spy kit in order to hope to survive the hordes chasing you just because you have no chance to kill them in fight.

angan.6572:

My problem is not about that i don’t like a challenging dungeon. My problem is, that in a game with no designated healing and tank class, in a game where Anet so proudly claims “Everyone can tank” the reality is that not everyone can in such level of difficulty dungeons.

Unless you have guardians / mesmer etc to provide a bit amount of shields, protection and projectile reflection the dungeon is really frustrating. Why should i be restrained by team setups ?? Wasn’t your motto Anet that any team setup could do any dungeon with no problems ? Yes some setups maybe are better than others but i didn’t expect it to be at the point of unless you have this and this hero in your team you are most likely to fail.

My first 2 runs i did it with some friends. 2 rangers , 1 necromancer, 1 elementalist and 1 mesmer in group. It was nearly impossible to survive 5 minutes without at least 3 people dying…

I play a ranger and i run with full exotic gear with toughness, vitality, precision (obtained specifically for dungeons like that) and i still get 2 shotted by every boss in there, i still have hard time surviving in there and i have people bashing at me when i pug “omg noob ranger you are a glass cannon, rangers useless anywhere”.

That’s my problem!. I enjoy a challenging dungeon. But a dungeon that offers real challenge, not mindlessly trying to dodge roll through 20+ mobs and find the best spot to use an Ash legion spy kit in order to hope to survive the hordes chasing you just because you have no chance to kill them in fight.

That’s more of an issue with what Anet claims you can do when it comes to dungeons and what reality is as far as how hard/easy things are.

I think the main difference between GW2 and other MMOs is people know they need certain roles in other games. In GW2 it’s much more open, which works for most PvE content, but shows the obvious disadvantage you have without certain roles when it comes to dungeons.

It’s way harder to balance hard content in a game that says “do whatever you want” compared to one that already has specific bounds of the trinity.

So you get people using the “GW2 Trinity” which makes things easy vs. groups which bring in random classes/builds/gear which don’t synergize and then have issues in things which require teamwork and certain mechanics.

There’s really no way around it with the way the game is currently designed by making things challenging for one group without making it too easy or too hard for another group because the spectrum of balance in GW2 is way bigger then other traditional MMOs that know they need to design challenge around tank/healer/dps trinities.

angan.6572:

“Everyone can tank”

Just a note: I’m pretty sure that when they said “everyone can tank” they meant “every class”. You still gotta make a tanky build if you wanna tank, that just stands to reason… you gotta play to your class’s mechanics…

I don’t remember any boss in Caudecus Manor, story or explorable, that will 2 shot a bunker ranger. Of course, most rangers don’t build into bunker. What’s your actual build? Having defensive gear and fully offensive traits doesn’t make you a tank in any way…

Whilst most dungeons in this game aren’t entirely difficult, I do rate CM on the top of the list for difficulty. It definitely is a bit harsh for first timers. But its a good dungeon because positioning and experience really pays off.

Low level dungeons tend to teach players. The lesson is CM is to think about being sneakier and use smart positioning instead of rushing head first over and over gain.

Line of Sight is taught in this one, so is pulling enemies in corners so your aoe can hit them. So is using reflects and what not to reduce incoming damage.
So is using the environment to skip some enemies (I don’t mean exploiting, nor do I mean running straight in the pack and then running with potential deaths).

I read a lot of exaggeration in the opening post (and even from some of the subsequent posts). I also see somebody mention that higher-level dungeons are easier to complete at their recommended level, which is partially true and I’ll address that first.

A main part of Guild Wars 2 combat is about dodging and moving out of red rings of badness, yes. But the next part of what defines a player’s skill is his/her ability to choose the right Utilities and weapons for a given situation and use them effectively. Unfortunately, at lower levels most players either don’t pick up the utilities that are truly good, don’t know how to use them, or just plainly don’t have the skill points to purchase them in the first place. Above all else, I believe this is what’s lacking from most beginner’s guides I see.

For dungeons in general, while group DPS, control and support are important, the thing that determines a good run from bad is knowing which mobs are your biggest threats and focusing the team’s effort in taken them down as quickly as possible.

In the case of Caudecus’ Manor, arranged in order of priority

1. Bandit Saboteur (large, high-damage, long duration AOE knock back)
2. Bandir Bomber (ranged AOE that stacks Vulnerability)
3. Bandit Cutpurse (capability to apply 12 stacks of Bleed in a single move)
4. Bandit Enforcer (two high burst damage ranged attacks)
5. Bandit Rifleman (one-shots most moving targets; significant damage otherwise)
6. Bandit Thug (grants allies Stability and Fury)
7. Bandit Hooligan (knockdowns and stuns)
8. Bandit Archer (generally annoying, but not threatening)

You’ll quickly notice that having projectile blocking and reflecting becomes absolutely incredible in this setting. Not a must, but definitely makes life easier. Also, in every path you’ll have to deal with the Cutpurse, so packing at least one form of Condition removal is necessary. Even a level 80 with full Exotics and Ascended items with Toughness and Vitality stats through the roof will hurt from one Cutpurse’s Leaping Death Blossom if unable to remove the Bleed stacks, let alone stacks from two Cutpurses being dumped on a glass cannon Elementalist.

CM does kinder of need a nerf, its pretty ridiculous. EXP path 2 is also stupid when when you have 10ms to place down barrels to blow up the door, almost impossible for pugs, even harder without vent/TS.

i’ll say it again and again, even if they do make changes, least. favorite. dungeon. either.
no wait, not even a favorite at all :PPP lol CM and CoF are the two dungeons i really don’t enjoy. for the overall look and feel, mechanics, mobs, etc.. just not fun for me.

though bring a lot of reflect and anti-ranged utilities for CM.

TsukasaHiiragi.9730:

CM does kinder of need a nerf, its pretty ridiculous. EXP path 2 is also stupid when when you have 10ms to place down barrels to blow up the door, almost impossible for pugs, even harder without vent/TS.

I’m almost always pugging. If people listen when I explain, they usually get it right on the 2nd try. Dunno about the endboss now after they nerfed corpse running though.

Haven’t done it for awhile, yet imo all the supposed low level dungeons are way too hard for their appropriate levels given characters who are not 80 in full exotics.
All dungeons should be achievable given their level and characters level of gear and knowledge.

I made the decision early not to bother with dungeons until I hit 80 on a char and was fully kitted with mostly exotics. Playing them in lower levels with gear makes a big difference. CM EX is pretty difficult with a full team of levels 40s. Its not so bad with 5 80s fully geared.

CM is the worst dungeon IMHO. the damage is just crazy. how is it that a guardian running cleric’s and a 0/0/30/30/10 build gets hit for 700+ by multiple mobs on a 4-5k hp pool?

it’s utterly atrocious.

The amount of mobs in some places is really stupid. It is doable by lvl 80 people using lots of shortcuts and exploits. But it’s kinda too much for a lvl 45 dungeon.

This was definitely the hardest dungeon my friend and I did when we decided to duo all of them. The snipers and bombers in particular were ridiculous.

angan.6572:

Let me start by saying a group with only lvl 45 characters is nearly impossible to extremely frustrating to complete any path and if the succeed they end up paying at least a minimum of ~11 silver on gear repairs.

Paths with like 20+ mobs that spam AOE bombs every second, Riflemen that shot you per 1k per shot from 1200+ range , bosses that keep you on permanent knockdown , permanent slow with skills that do 400+ damage per second and 1 million ridiculous dots.

Why does this happen ?? And why label it as a lvl 45 dungeon while you need at least lvl 70+ to make your experience less frustrating ?

This map is kittening rediculous. That’s all I can say. The mobs kittening camp your spawn and do rediculous amounts of damage.

Well, I hate sounding elitist, but I’ve done both story and explorable with on level groups who had blue and green armor on. I know it sounds elitist, but the OP says that it’s “nearly impossible.” So, I’m not saying, “well I did it, sooooo.” I’m saying the notion it could be near impossible is not fact. There are many factors that may change the outcome of the dungeon. What ways did you pull? What was your group composition, and what was the competence level? What sorts of things did you do? Did you range when you needed to range, melee when you needed to melee? Did you try and pull a huge group and leash all but one or two, so you could kill them easier? You don’t always have to rush into the group. Are your friends int he group using things to reflect projectiles? There’s so much here. A good run down on exactly what you did and where you had problems would be more helpful if you wish to receive help.

While it might be more difficult at the level you’re downscaled to otherwise, it’s far from impossible. What CM (and several other dungeons) requires is for the group to plan ahead with regards to weapons and utilities as well as traits to some degree. There is a reason we can swap them out at any time (out of combat), you are supposed to adapt to the challenge. Pretty much every class has access to some projectile block or reflect (I can’t recall any for necros) so if you’re goin up against a mob group with plenty of ranged enemies you are better of equipping/slotting some of them. Same goes for condition removals, plenty of mobs in CM apply various kinds of conditions so having a way to remove them is key. As a new player in CM you might not know what to use when but either ask in /p or observe what is killing you and learn from the experience. Dungeons in most recent MMOs have become a joke, I like that GW2 has got some which at least offers a bit of a challenge (<3 Lupi). Since you can get exotics with the same stats from multiple dungeons you’re not even losing out on anything required by opting for an easier dungeon until you becomemore familiar with game and class mechanics.

ProxyDamage.9826:

angan.6572:

“Everyone can tank”

Just a note: I’m pretty sure that when they said “everyone can tank” they meant “every class”. You still gotta make a tanky build if you wanna tank, that just stands to reason… you gotta play to your class’s mechanics…

I don’t remember any boss in Caudecus Manor, story or explorable, that will 2 shot a bunker ranger. Of course, most rangers don’t build into bunker. What’s your actual build? Having defensive gear and fully offensive traits doesn’t make you a tank in any way…

Gear with toughness , vitality , precision, 0/20/30/0/20 traits.

If i’m not a bunker like that then i give up the game….

And still when some mobs focus me i still die in 2 seconds. It’s ridiculous to have mobs hitting you for 700+ damage per hit. And have to deal with 20+ of them in a corridor…

In story mode, my party gave up at the part where you encounter a massive group at a watch tower. Snipers were tearing us up, while bombers kept us stunned. Not to mention there was a veteran running around smacking us.

Story mode remember….

If I’m not mistaken, the snipers are locked in place, so you could have pulled the mobs. Either the big pack, or one by one if you had a thief or necromancer.

It seems like it (EXP mode) could do with a little balancing, yes.

Even though the requirement is 45 it is pretty much impossible to do it.

I remember reaching 45 being all excited 3 hours later depressed at like 30 deaths on that dungeon.

Seriously all these comments about it being not that hard?

When was the last time you all ran it as a 45 team…. and passed it?

Why slap a level 40-45 level on it and then make it so you need level 80 geared teams to run them, this whole game does this? every dungeon needs a level 80 geared team to even hope to have minimal issues…

Yet they still add level requirements to these things, then get thread after thread of complaints…if you add a 45 tag to it level 45 should be able to get through it no problems, Ascalonian Catacombs is the same, and TA, CoE…

Ojimaru.8970:

I read a lot of exaggeration in the opening post (and even from some of the subsequent posts). I also see somebody mention that higher-level dungeons are easier to complete at their recommended level, which is partially true and I’ll address that first.

A main part of Guild Wars 2 combat is about dodging and moving out of red rings of badness, yes. But the next part of what defines a player’s skill is his/her ability to choose the right Utilities and weapons for a given situation and use them effectively. Unfortunately, at lower levels most players either don’t pick up the utilities that are truly good, don’t know how to use them, or just plainly don’t have the skill points to purchase them in the first place. Above all else, I believe this is what’s lacking from most beginner’s guides I see.

For dungeons in general, while group DPS, control and support are important, the thing that determines a good run from bad is knowing which mobs are your biggest threats and focusing the team’s effort in taken them down as quickly as possible.

In the case of Caudecus’ Manor, arranged in order of priority

1. Bandit Saboteur (large, high-damage, long duration AOE knock back)
2. Bandir Bomber (ranged AOE that stacks Vulnerability)
3. Bandit Cutpurse (capability to apply 12 stacks of Bleed in a single move)
4. Bandit Enforcer (two high burst damage ranged attacks)
5. Bandit Rifleman (one-shots most moving targets; significant damage otherwise)
6. Bandit Thug (grants allies Stability and Fury)
7. Bandit Hooligan (knockdowns and stuns)
8. Bandit Archer (generally annoying, but not threatening)

You’ll quickly notice that having projectile blocking and reflecting becomes absolutely incredible in this setting. Not a must, but definitely makes life easier. Also, in every path you’ll have to deal with the Cutpurse, so packing at least one form of Condition removal is necessary. Even a level 80 with full Exotics and Ascended items with Toughness and Vitality stats through the roof will hurt from one Cutpurse’s Leaping Death Blossom if unable to remove the Bleed stacks, let alone stacks from two Cutpurses being dumped on a glass cannon Elementalist.

Now try doing all that on a class that has no counter for most of those things you mentioned, ie necro. no stability, no blocks/reflects, no evades, access to any quickness, and if you are about to throw out that old tired comment of “well they have such high hp and 2 health bars”…no, just no…

It’s easy to go around saying these dungeons are cake when you play classes that were obviously designed for them. The ONLY thing viable for a necro to do in this dungeon is remove conditions…which were never a threat to a necro to begin with >.>

You can go to fractals level 40 at character level 2. If you die, should the dungeon be redesigned down to your character?

Hoju.7852:

In story mode, my party gave up at the part where you encounter a massive group at a watch tower. Snipers were tearing us up, while bombers kept us stunned. Not to mention there was a veteran running around smacking us.

Story mode remember….

Stay back at the tunnel. Have someone run up and shoot the veteran, then run back to the party at the tunnel. Everyone will leash except the silvers and the regular mobs. Kill them like any other trash pack. Then have someone shoot the veteran again, this time pull him back to just the trees so he doesn’t leash. Kill him by himself. Then you only have three snipers left in the trees, you can take them out like any other trash pack. Tactics. You don’t have to rush in swinging. That’s suicide.

I can’t stand posts about how impossible a storymode is. You never have someone just simply say, “this is what we did, it didn’t work, what can we change?” It’s always more like, “BAW DUNGEON TOO HARD NERF.”

Dante.1508:

Seriously all these comments about it being not that hard?

When was the last time you all ran it as a 45 team…. and passed it?

Why slap a level 40-45 level on it and then make it so you need level 80 geared teams to run them, this whole game does this? every dungeon needs a level 80 geared team to even hope to have minimal issues…

Yet they still add level requirements to these things, then get thread after thread of complaints…if you add a 45 tag to it level 45 should be able to get through it no problems, Ascalonian Catacombs is the same, and TA, CoE…

We three manned it on level with a necromancer, mesmer, and warrior. It’s not impossible, you just have to adjust and use tactics, leash pulls, kites, etc. We have done every dungeon story and explorable on level with warrior, guardian, mesmer, and necromancer. It very much can be done. THis is why you get people saying these things. Because, yes they actually have done them.

Bombul.2506:

You can go to fractals level 40 at character level 2. If you die, should the dungeon be redesigned down to your character?

When you enter fractals your level is adjusted to 80 and the mobs are 80 level. If you go as level 2 and complain about it, then you are an idiot.

On the contrary in CM you get adjusted to level 45-46 and the difficulty is harder than lvl 70+ dungeons.

Brennus.1435:

Dante.1508:

Yet they still add level requirements to these things, then get thread after thread of complaints…if you add a 45 tag to it level 45 should be able to get through it no problems, Ascalonian Catacombs is the same, and TA, CoE…

We three manned it on level with a necromancer, mesmer, and warrior. It’s not impossible, you just have to adjust and use tactics, leash pulls, kites, etc. We have done every dungeon story and explorable on level with warrior, guardian, mesmer, and necromancer. It very much can be done. THis is why you get people saying these things. Because, yes they actually have done them.

Don’t try to sound like an elitist kitten. When you boast to 3 man a dungeon post also the time it took you to complete it. Maybe you have 2-3 hours to spend to do a single path just for the challenge. Not everyone has that time. And if you refer to p1 where you jump over the mountains to skip half the dungeon then lol at you.

Don’t try to sound like an elitist kitten. When you boast to 3 man a dungeon post also the time it took you to complete it. Maybe you have 2-3 hours to spend to do a single path just for the challenge. Not everyone has that time. And if you refer to p1 where you jump over the mountains to skip half the dungeon then lol at you.

Why are you so hostile?

I’m not an elitist. I’m some guy who plays the game beside you and would offer help if you weren’t so kittening uptight about it.

I don’t even know what you’re talking about jumping over mountains, we usually kill all packs.

Anyway. Where are you stuck at? Tell me your group comp, where are you stuck, what is everyone doing? What boss is killing you, etc? We need details if you want help to completing it.

Edit: My g/f says I come off as a dick. I just want more information about what you’re doing, so I might offer advice.

Why is it that everyone that complains about the dungeons being “way over the top hard” are the very same people that ABSOLUTELY refuse to follow even the simplest of instructions?

Is it really that much fun when you die over and over and over and over because you can´t be arsed to actually pull mobs, instead of RUSHING into them and eating 2-6 ground AoEs just because some 3 warrior / 1 guardian / 1 mesmer group on youtube did that?

Every class gets lots of utility in one form or another, using it is never bad. It´s getting frustrating when you first have the task of finding people that want to try dungeons, then you start on up, only to find out that one guy in the group is the type of clown that gets outsmarted by a turret and ends up wiping your group when he does manage finding a group of mob that is´nt permarooted and pulls them all.

The playerbase here is so DPS focused (and I admit, when you DO know what you´r doing, you can take off as much utility as possible in favor of DPS) that it makes dungeons ten times harder then they should be.
In all fairness, I recon something like half the players crying in this forum are the kind of players that you are actually better of trying to 4 man the dungeon without them.

CM is the first dungeon that actually requires you to think on your feet. Calling it hard is a mockery of any hard dungeon in any game. It´s not hard. At all. Even at 45 (I did every dungeon at level so far) and certainly not at 80.
Now, if you go in at 45 with a group that has another make-up then the youtube groups you´r watching before you go (or heck, same make-up but different traits / skills picked) then yeah, what they did MIGHT NOT work for you.
Lets not rush to the forums and whine about it.

For any dungeon in any game ever made, first time you do go, you should be a bit careful. When you pull, the basic line of thinking is “judge amount of mobs – shoot the one furthest from the others – hide ENTIRE group behind terrain”, this makes the gnarly and all his friends run over. Since they don´t see you, they don´t stop to cast or shoot on their way over. When they come around the corner, you unload. If the mobs are lacking stability this is a good time for the group to unload 1 AoE CC of some kind. Or AoE guard. Or AoE reflect. Or AoE “whatever”. After a bit they die. You move on, rinse repeat.

In all honesty, speed ruuuuuushing trough dungeons rather then being a bit careful IS ONLY FAST IF EVERYONE KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING AND WHAT THE DUNGEON LOOKS LIKE AND HOW IT WORKS AND WHERE THEY ARE GOING AND WHERE THE MOBS LEASH (this bit is in caps because its SOOOOO IMPOOOORTANT) and if ALL of the above isn´t true, odds are your rush is going to end up with somewhere between 1 and 5 dead party members. Sometimes you MUST rush, say you wiped a bit and the mobs are now placed poorly and you have no choice left, but thats RARE if you and your group are even a little careful.

In CM the key to sucess is PULLING (not RUSHING INTO) onto your group. You get small chunks of mobs (top pull is 5 silvers, but they come first 2, then another 3 after a bit) and after that its just target priority. Which ones go down first depends on whats in your group mostly. If riflemen are present, stand still when the big red target is under your feet.
Blinds rock. Knocks rock on ANYTHING that shoots or wants to melee, unless a thug is present. Reflect rocks. Fear rocks. Cripple rocks. Terrain is your friend (gnarly monsters, like white men, can not jump) always.

Good luck in your future runs. Stop complaining, man up, don´t let those TRIXXY TURRETS outsmart you (the solution when you see a turret is…. waaaait for iiiit…. DON´T FIGHT BY THE TURRETS, move the mobs, after all mobiles are dead, stand around a bit, toss in some ground target stuff, get a general idea about how many mobs you hit with those, active dodge into room, push off AoE blind / stun / daze etc and quickly burn down whats left) on your next run. ANd never ever ever run up and into a group of gnarlies if you aren´t SURE that they are trivial for your group.

And me personally, I don´t even like running into groups of mobs when they ARE trivial since that makes people sloppy.
You better belive that the first people that figured out those dungeons had their fair share of wipes as well. But, if they are anything like me, it sure as heck wasn´t on the trash.

Brennus.1435:

Why are you so hostile?

I’m not an elitist. I’m some guy who plays the game beside you and would offer help if you weren’t so kittening uptight about it.

I don’t even know what you’re talking about jumping over mountains, we usually kill all packs.

Anyway. Where are you stuck at? Tell me your group comp, where are you stuck, what is everyone doing? What boss is killing you, etc? We need details if you want help to completing it.

Edit: My g/f says I come off as a dick. I just want more information about what you’re doing, so I might offer advice.

I apologize if i came off a bit strong and sounded hostile. Wasn’t my intention, it was just a rant of the moment. I’ll quote my self from a previous answer so you can understand my frustration with the specific dungeon:

My problem is not about that i don’t like a challenging dungeon. My problem is, that in a game with no designated healing and tank class, in a game where Anet so proudly claims “Everyone can tank” the reality is that not everyone can in such level of difficulty dungeons.

Unless you have guardians / mesmer etc to provide a bit amount of shields, protection and projectile reflection the dungeon is really frustrating. Why should i be restrained by team setups ?? Wasn’t your motto Anet that any team setup could do any dungeon with no problems ? Yes some setups maybe are better than others but i didn’t expect it to be at the point of unless you have this and this hero in your team you are most likely to fail.

My first 2 runs i did it with some friends. 2 rangers , 1 necromancer, 1 elementalist and 1 mesmer in group. It was nearly impossible to survive 5 minutes without at least 3 people dying…

I play a ranger and i run with full exotic gear with toughness, vitality, precision (obtained specifically for dungeons like that) and i still get 2 shotted by every boss in there, i still have hard time surviving in there and i have people bashing at me when i pug “omg noob ranger you are a glass cannon, rangers useless anywhere”.

That’s my problem!. I enjoy a challenging dungeon. But a dungeon that offers real challenge, not mindlessly trying to dodge roll through 20+ mobs and find the best spot to use an Ash legion spy kit in order to hope to survive the hordes chasing you just because you have no chance to kill them in fight.

angan.6572:

My problem is not about that i don’t like a challenging dungeon. My problem is, that in a game with no designated healing and tank class, in a game where Anet so proudly claims “Everyone can tank” the reality is that not everyone can in such level of difficulty dungeons.

Unless you have guardians / mesmer etc to provide a bit amount of shields, protection and projectile reflection the dungeon is really frustrating. Why should i be restrained by team setups ?? Wasn’t your motto Anet that any team setup could do any dungeon with no problems ? Yes some setups maybe are better than others but i didn’t expect it to be at the point of unless you have this and this hero in your team you are most likely to fail.

My first 2 runs i did it with some friends. 2 rangers , 1 necromancer, 1 elementalist and 1 mesmer in group. It was nearly impossible to survive 5 minutes without at least 3 people dying…

I play a ranger and i run with full exotic gear with toughness, vitality, precision (obtained specifically for dungeons like that) and i still get 2 shotted by every boss in there, i still have hard time surviving in there and i have people bashing at me when i pug “omg noob ranger you are a glass cannon, rangers useless anywhere”.

That’s my problem!. I enjoy a challenging dungeon. But a dungeon that offers real challenge, not mindlessly trying to dodge roll through 20+ mobs and find the best spot to use an Ash legion spy kit in order to hope to survive the hordes chasing you just because you have no chance to kill them in fight.

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Have you simply tried better pulls? I’m not bragging when I say we’ve three manned it on level. I’m just simply stating that it’s really not that hard if you use certain tactics. Skipping isn’t one of the tactics I mean. There are places, however, in CM where if you don’t use the scaffolding to bypass the group, you will die over and over and over because of the chain pull that the mobs have. You simply can’t fight everything directly. There’s parts in CM where you need everyone to range rifleman so you don’t pull anyone else. There’s a room that’s a killbox, where you need everyone to get underneath a ramp so the rifleman have to walk down to you and can’t shoot you at all while you kill them. There’s a place where you have to use the scaffolding to bypass an nearly impossible group of like 20 mobs.

First month of launch me and my steady dungeon party did caudecus’ manor without knowing any tactics, with terrible gear and being lower level.

It is not ridiculous, it’s harder than at lvl 80 of course but it’s not impossible. You don’t need specific professions to do it, it’s about learning the tactics and figuring out a way to best counter it with your party.

Dungeons were intended to be hard content, if anything I wish they’d make all dungeons harder (Hard mode please!) since everyone now seems to think it’s casual content and should therefore be doable by everyone with any group.

PuG mode and Hardmode should definitely be added.

Bombul.2506:

You can go to fractals level 40 at character level 2. If you die, should the dungeon be redesigned down to your character?

We’re not discussing fractals here, this is a CM thread, stop trolling. Fractals is fine. And if you do fractals 40 with a level 2, well you deserve every bit of horrid nightmares you get out of that lol. Now 10 and under, yes I have actually done those with a lvl 2 just fine. So again, stick to the dungeon we’re talking about and stop trolling.

CM can be a difficult dungeon to run because it requires a level of teamwork which far overshadows AC. Many of the enemies cause huge stacks of bleeds, knock backs and just mega loads of damage which requires the party to pull carefully and position themselves.

Unlike AC, CM also requires a more specific utility and trait setup. Reflection and condition removal seem to be the main draw points for succeeding and even in story mode, the enemies can still do some serious damage to a level 80.

Anyone who isn’t familiar with GW2 dungeons will simply get stomped. My first CM explore run was pretty awful but after repeated runs every few days, it actually isn’t a bad place minus some bosses that just have too much health. There are definitely some things that could be tweaked. I find that huge clusters of enemies that fire projectiles could be toned down and certain bosses could use a mechanic overhaul.

I can see how a level 45 can see CM as an impossible task. If you imagine a full group of level 45s and non of them have ever been there then yeah….. A group of well geared level 80s can easily wipe. I think the issue here is the teamwork gap required between here and AC.

Path 2 is rediculous and needs to be tuned. The bomb the gate part isnt to bad but the part after that with the cannong and all the ranged mobs is assenine. That is the only place I have ever had real trouble, and I hevent even tried it after the WP change, because I knew it would be a mess. P1 seems ok and P3 is manageable but I won’t even do p2 again until it is tuned a little better.

Am I the only who finds state of the dungeons bit sad when it’s more about exploiting stupid AI than using your own skill correctly?
Splitting groups with pulling, standing on funny spots, skipping, using terrain when kiting, abusing line-of-sight, hitting through walls, watching them just suiciding against reflects., watching them stand there eating all damage…
Above is pretty much only reason I can solo stuff.

Wethospu.6437:

Am I the only who finds state of the dungeons bit sad when it’s more about exploiting stupid AI than using your own skill correctly?
Splitting groups with pulling, standing on funny spots, skipping, using terrain when kiting, abusing line-of-sight, hitting through walls, watching them just suiciding against reflects., watching them stand there eating all damage…
Above is pretty much only reason I can solo stuff.

I would agree, there is such a wide margin of difficulty between the dungeons and paths. AC is super easy, which it should be as it’s the first dungeon. Then you have CM, which is way over tuned and seems to be buggy at times. Then jump to CoF which is rediculously easy and CoE which, some paths are a little overtuned. I haven’t even tried Arah exp but story mode was a PITA.

There really needs to be a progression of difficulty, from the lowest level dungeon to the highest. Or a progression of difficulty in the story modes and just make the exp dungeons all the same basic difficulty which is harder than the story modes. Because the exp are open to dynamic leveling they should be doable by a level appropriate group.

I can understand the OP’s frustrations. The Manor is the second lowest level dungeon, yet even for level 80s its one of the biggest headaches. It’s one thing for Arah to be a (annoying) challenge, but CM’s challenge level coupled by the fact that everyone is level 45 (or reduced to 45) certainly aches of troubles.

Pulls are difficult on several paths because of the sheer number of mobs. One wrong pull (and there are so few correct ones) will get you carpetted by high-HP Silvers. Even for level 80s, dealing with multiple high-HP silvers is as annoying as it is tedious. The dungeon just becomes a death-addled, not fun crawl.

If the aim of this dungeon is to teach players how to pull and use the environment, it’s not doing it. You don’t give a person a new art student a carving knife and expect him to create the statue of David. Instead of presenting such challenging (and arguably unfair) pulls in a level 45 dungeon, they should have tapered those challenges in. As designed, the Manor isn’t a very good fairly-new-to-dungeons and mid-levels-player dungeon. It’s just not.

Polle.6908:

CM can be a difficult dungeon to run because it requires a level of teamwork which far overshadows AC. Many of the enemies cause huge stacks of bleeds, knock backs and just mega loads of damage which requires the party to pull carefully and position themselves.

…I can see how a level 45 can see CM as an impossible task. If you imagine a full group of level 45s and non of them have ever been there then yeah….. A group of well geared level 80s can easily wipe. I think the issue here is the teamwork gap required between here and AC.

Great post. And from the above, I’m sure you can tell that I think the gab between the Catacombs (a fun challenge) and the Manor (a giant headache at any level) is too vast.

AreaNet’s been saying they’d like to do better at developing the game to ease in newer players (which, for all its good traits, supporting new players is an area where the game certainly falls flat). Come the new dungeon patch, here’s a place where they can do just that.

This is the first dungeon I mastered all 3 paths of. Yeah it’s tough, but I think that’s okay. It’s possible to do with only level 45 gear and traits if you know it well—just because it’s a level 45 dungeon doesn’t mean you’re entitled to an easy dungeon as soon as you ding 45.

Wethospu.6437:

Am I the only who finds state of the dungeons bit sad when it’s more about exploiting stupid AI than using your own skill correctly?
Splitting groups with pulling, standing on funny spots, skipping, using terrain when kiting, abusing line-of-sight, hitting through walls, watching them just suiciding against reflects., watching them stand there eating all damage…
Above is pretty much only reason I can solo stuff.

I don’t really find that exploiting. Skills that pull are at least of use instead of pulling by using a normal skill, smart positioning is what they wanted and using the right skills is what this dungeon was made for.

Although I don’t get what you mean by “standing on funny spots” and “using terrain when kiting”. And I can only think of 2 minor situations where you can kill monsters through walls.

Why do they bother putting enemies in groups if they are supposed to be split? How does it logically make sense that enemy group doesn’t care at all that you pick them off one by one?
Standing on funny spots meant going to a spot where you can “afk-ranged” bosses.
Again, why they bother putting any enemies if they are supposed to be skipped (it’s easier and faster than fighting after all…)? How does it logically make sense that enemies simply forget that you ever existed once you pass a magical border?
Using terrain when kiting meant changing elevation with jumping. Because enemies can’t do any vertical movement it is very effective way to kite them.
Abusing line of sight has nothing to do with being smart, all you do is hide behind corner. Smart positioning should be about moving to positions where you can maximize your damage output while minimizing risks. Why do ranged monsters give up their advantage when they voluntarily come to melee-range?
Hitting through walls can be used a lot more when kiting enemies around corners. Why enemy melees don’t do that if we can? Or why we can even do that?
Using reflections hardly takes any skill. Just put it at front of enemy at any moment. Why won’t enemies stop shooting after 1-2 secs when being reflected? Most importantly, why don’t they dodge…

There has to be an advantage for those pull skills. Sure they bring the enemy closer…but except in PvP I can’t understand why you’d need to pull the enemy closer when in PvE enemies rarely kite.

The only group in CM (and every dungeon) that I’m sure almost was made to be skipped in the big group you encounter in P1 and P3. You don’t even have to use exploits to not aggro them and you are infiltrating a bandit hindeout, it makes sense to try to be unnoticed.
And I have no idea why the very optional boss in p1 is there…the times we fought him we didn’t get any drops and you can come out from upstairs.

Never found the afk spots (maybe in Frost but meh)

Using LoS has to do with not being dumb. Why stand out in the open when you can take cover ?
And you are maximizing your damage : by making all the enemies come at the same place you are making sure your AoE attacks hit everyone.
CM monsters aren’t the brightest bunch, although it’s “nice” to see them run to their friends when they are in danger.

And some things you mentioned I have no idea. You did it solo so you have more knowledge on tricks and what not.

CM is right the way it is : it’s a learning dungeon. You learn that some skills are extremely useful depending on the situation and that if you aren’t careful about your surroundings you can end up dead, like players dying when Bridgette has retaliation.

You don’t really need pull skills to split groups, but might help a bit. I agree control-skills are quite useless in PvE but that should also be changed (like mobile enemies which deal great pressure so you need allies to help).
I’m not particularly talking about CM, all dungeons have these same “issues”.

Yes, using LoS is very effective and not abusing it would be stupid. But I want the game to be less about dumb AI. Currently whenever you get advice it’s always about how to abuse bad AI (skip, split groups, pull behind corner, etc).
I understand it is probably quite hard to get my point when it’s more about design principles.

Nay of the Ether.8913:

Bombul.2506:

You can go to fractals level 40 at character level 2. If you die, should the dungeon be redesigned down to your character?

We’re not discussing fractals here, this is a CM thread, stop trolling. Fractals is fine. And if you do fractals 40 with a level 2, well you deserve every bit of horrid nightmares you get out of that lol. Now 10 and under, yes I have actually done those with a lvl 2 just fine. So again, stick to the dungeon we’re talking about and stop trolling.

Not surprised you completely missed the point. Explorable dungeons are the only end game content in this game. Should you have to be 80, no, but you should have an expansive knowledge of this game to be able to over come them easily. I ran all story dungeons at level and did not have any issues. I suck as a player, but still, no issues. Exp paths are a joke. This game has very very little in the way of challenging PvE content. If you can run the first 9 levels of fractals as a level 2, there is a major problem with the challenge of that dungeon. If you cannot run it at 10-19 without ascended, you lack some fundamental skill set of the game. If you have issues with Story mode, your group has much to learn about the fundamentals of combat in this game. If you have problems with explorer mode, you either do not have an organized group (for which they are suposedly designed, although that is out the window at this point), are vastly under-geared for your level, or most of the group lacks the knowledge/skillset the game is trying to teach you.

If every possible aspect of a game is able to be eaisly completed by everyong in a short amount of time, the majority of the gaming population will stop playing the game in a matter of days/weeks/or months. You fail at something, it can be viewed as an opportunity to learn the game and try again or give up. You always succeed at everything, the only option there is to give up. See the problem?