Guild Wars 2

This will make me wana play again.
Is this an unreasonable request?

You can download 3rd party ones currently. It’s probably an unreasonable request to ask Anet to implement on themselves, however probably not unreasonable to request API support for more accurate 3rd party DPS meter addons.

We already have accurate 3rd party DPS meter addons, all we need is anet to say that it’s all right to use them

Fermi.2409:

We already have accurate 3rd party DPS meter addons, all we need is anet to say that it’s all right to use them

Have they stated that it is not? My general thought was that if it didn’t give you a distinct advantage or play the game for you it was okay.

There was a post either here or on reddit about a HoT map timer overlay and a dev/admin responded something to that effect.

I would think a meter that simply tells you how much damage is being done wont give you a leg up on anyone you are playing with.

BloodyNine.7504:

I would think a meter that simply tells you how much damage is being done wont give you a leg up on anyone you are playing with.

It’s in the ToS of the game that you cannot use combat log data or something to that effect.

It’s not really about an unfair advantage for Anet it’s more about the type of non-competitive environment they wanted to create originally in their game. Since then they’ve added a lot of competitive elements to the game and a damage meter and the ability to log boss attempts would really help.

There is a vocal portion of the player base that is against it though because of their experiences with a damage meter being used to discriminate.

Here is a scenario:

You use a 3rd party DPS meter because you think it’s OK, it works for a while so you think you’re in the clear then BAM … you get banned out of nowhere 4 months later for breaking the ToS.

However, if you’re using a meter that parses the text in your combat log on your screen and displays it in an overlay, Anet is as likely to detect it as having someone sitting next to you plugging the numbers into a calculator.

As long as you use text recognition dps meter and overlays that don’t dig in game files or read it’s memory you will be fine.

Fermi.2409:

We already have accurate 3rd party DPS meter addons, all we need is anet to say that it’s all right to use them

if you mean the one that read the chat yes, is legit, by the simple fact it doesnt violate anything and works exactly like all other overlays (Like Overwolf, which is plenty supported/used).

If you use something that taps into game’s code, that’s bannable.

I would still prefer that they implement one in game. Hopefully with a PvE Golem just like in PvP. That ways, a lot more people will be able to prove their build is viable, instead of just realising on 2-3 guild to speak about the build before any pug start to recognize a new build as good.

It will also allow people to test themselve and realize that they probably do half of the max dps of the profession and that a lot of profession that are not welcome because they are not meta, actually does more dps or similar dps than most meta in the hands of the general player.

As long as such dps meter is personal and don’t show the information to everybody in your party or squad, this will bring less toxicity and more build diversity to the game. Of course if everybody can see your dps meter, this might bring more toxicity in raids/fractal, which is not a good result.

^^ Honestly, I’m also at that point; put much of the nonsensical discussions about ‘meta’ to rest.

You do realize that only those who really care about having a DPS meter are the meta try-hards and the min/maxers right? People get enough flak for not running the almighty zerker gear. What we DON’T need is a sure fire way to come down on other players for not playing a way that someone thinks they should play.
Besides, nearly every bit of content, with perhaps the exception of raids, can be completed in the worse possible build setup ever.
No. An in-game DPS meter will only serve to stoke the ego’s of those who live by such things, and do nothing to promote cooperation, teamwork, or build diversity.

That’s the point … it’s my belief that the DPS meter would force people with certain narrowminded ideas out to the open to justify their recommendations for builds and treatment of others.

Besides, a DPS meter could be implemented to show you your own damage, not anyone elses. Ultimately, a real min/maxer will want to optimizing their damage with real data and a tool to measure it. The current guys just play Excel RP.

You do realize that only those who really care about having a DPS meter are the meta try-hards and the min/maxers right?

This is SO not true.

Playing with my dad the other day (Who’s 65 and terrible at video games but likes MMORPG’s) he said “I wish this game had some way of telling how well you are doing”. He’s absolutely awful at these games and the furthest thing from a min-maxer you could get. But he still desires some feedback on how he’s doing in relation to others. He just sits there and spams all his abilities without really knowing what he should be doing because the game only gives him these random white and green numbers that often are hard to correlate to exactly what you are doing.

People get enough flak for not running the almighty zerker gear.

When you make content that is challenging to a large portion of the player base AND have that content be reliant on a group of people to complete you will have people who discriminate. The problem with not having damage meters is people will use scape goats to discriminate which are only based on popular opinion. You don’t have “X” runes or sigils? Nope not taking you. Not full ascended? Nope. People make huge deals out of things that are minor because the game hasn’t given them the feedback to see how small some of these things actually are and the only way they know is because someone else has done the math.

Damage meters let your average joe understand the game and their characters a little better. They can go in one day and do X-Y-Z rotation and see the results and then go another and do Z-X-Y rotation and see the results. You don’t have to have a math degree and complex spreadsheets to swap out runes and run a DPS test for yourself with a damage meter.

An in-game DPS meter will only serve to stoke the ego’s of those who live by such things, and do nothing to promote cooperation, teamwork, or build diversity.

It would ABSOLUTELY create build diversity. People would be able to give validity to their builds which they cannot do right now. This game takes an incredible amount of math to weigh all the options and it’s only really possible to do so for completely optimal situations, which only exist in a vacuum. Just look at Condi Engineer, when HoT launched it was widely considered the king of condition damage, but it’s fallen out of favor because people have begun to realize how hard it is to actually achieve the spreadsheet results and are looking to easier options. Damage meters would probably rock the meta hard because people would realize who’s doing good ACTUAL damage rather than theoretical damage.

TL;DR: Damage meters would be a huge asset to the average player because it would provide real time feedback for their actions and they would be able to understand the game on a level that’s only accessible by very difficult mathematics currently.

pdavis.8031:

No. An in-game DPS meter will only serve to stoke the ego’s of those who live by such things, and do nothing to promote cooperation, teamwork, or build diversity.

Actually a DPS meter would allow you to tweak and understand your build better, know when best to burst and what could be tightened up in your rotation. As someone who has used a DPS meter in WoW it was the most useful tool to improve my play, having real and accurate data on how your performance translates to damage would be a really helpful thing for the game (esp now raids).

BloodyNine.7504:

Fermi.2409:

We already have accurate 3rd party DPS meter addons, all we need is anet to say that it’s all right to use them

Have they stated that it is not? My general thought was that if it didn’t give you a distinct advantage or play the game for you it was okay.

Writing a 100% accurate personal DPS meter is trivial – a bit of engine byte patching can get you as-they-happen combat strings fed right to your own combat processor. The problem comes down to the method used… it’s essentially a hack. While I know these tools are around, chances are you won’t be finding them in the open for that reason.

Pandabro.8743:

It’s in the ToS of the game that you cannot use combat log data or something to that effect.

“Use, obtain or provide data related to operation of the Game, including but not limited to:
software that reads areas of computer memory or storage devices related to the Game;
software that intercepts or otherwise collects data from or through the Game;”
7.d., 8.c., and 8.e are also worth noting: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-user-agreement/

In other words, if you sneeze too close, you’ll probably have violated something in there. Just running the game is breaking the ToS – there’s no other way for Windows to get the EP or build an exports table without reading. Make that double if you have any background process like anti-malware.

It’s wording like that that translates to “we can do what we want whenever we want for whichever reason” for anet that pretty much guarantees we’re about as likely to see a gw2 addons section on curse as we are to see an official in-game API for mods (and with it DPS meters). And yes, sticking purely to what’s written, even the screenshot meter could be considered as collecting data from the game.

That said, I’d love to see something official, or at least something to not make me second guess using any mod.

Coulter.2315:

Actually a DPS meter would allow you to tweak and understand your build better, know when best to burst and what could be tightened up in your rotation. As someone who has used a DPS meter in WoW it was the most useful tool to improve my play, having real and accurate data on how your performance translates to damage would be a really helpful thing for the game (esp now raids).

Personally I agree with everything you’ve said, DPS meters are a great tool for personal improvement, and something I’d love to see implemented in some form, but this argument is useless here because most people who are opposed to dps meters aren’t interested in personal improvement in the first place. They just want to go through all content in the game running whatever build they want and then get their rewards. It’s the same reason we see all these complaints about raids and toxicity, some people just don’t like new and challenging content, and would rather complain about it than try to improve.

pdavis.8031:

You do realize that only those who really care about having a DPS meter are the meta try-hards and the min/maxers right? People get enough flak for not running the almighty zerker gear. What we DON’T need is a sure fire way to come down on other players for not playing a way that someone thinks they should play.
Besides, nearly every bit of content, with perhaps the exception of raids, can be completed in the worse possible build setup ever.
No. An in-game DPS meter will only serve to stoke the ego’s of those who live by such things, and do nothing to promote cooperation, teamwork, or build diversity.

1)That not true that only try-hards are min/maxers care about that. Most people care about having a decent build. Only a small portion of the community want to min/max between assassin and zerker or take the expensive versatile +5stats, etc. That’s the minority. Just like only the minority don’t give a kitten about their build effectiveness at all. The majority is in between. They want a build that they like, but want to make that build a minium efficient. They want to have fun, while having not too much problem beating the game and they surely want to feel like they help their team, not drag them down.

2) Seriously? You are still thinking about the almighty zerker gear? Ya Assassins, Sinister, Viper and Zerker isn’t enough to change the way these people talk? Could you guess at least start to talk about glassy gear or offensive only gear and stop with the zerker gear?

3) That the point. People know what is the meta. Having number for the meta isn’t a problem you idiot. They are all over the internet. A dps meter would not help determine how the meta is good. We already have a lot of people doing the math on these build. What a dps meter would help to do is first to give dps data on OTHER BUILD THAN META. Nobody take the time to calculate what is the dps of a minion master or a Marauder Elementalist or a Celestial Engineer. We just know they are less so we assume they are bad. What how much dps they lose? 50%, 30%, 10%?? We don’t know really. Secondly that will give a tool for people to improve themselve. kitten in theory I could do 20k dps, most people show that they are able to reach 18K in-game, but I only do 15K dps. What can I do to improve. Is it my build, my rotation, my positioning? And third and most importantly, that will show to people following the meta like crazy how much they might still do a terrible dps. They will realize that they would do better dps with some non meta build because they have a simpler rotation or work better in the content you are doing, etc. It will show that meta are usually build in a bubble or in the hands of elite players and that the result are not the same in the hand of an average players or in the reality of a fight.

Like I said before. A DPS meter should be personnal. If we start to see the dps of everybody, then it’s just the best way to get toxicity with minimal added benefit.

I am definitely a very casual player, but I’m also very interested in what my average DPS is. I use the overlay DPS meter that scrapes the chatbox with dekeyz’ config, and honestly I would have it turned on all of the time if it didn’t require me to make my UI normal sized (takes up too much space). I use it when testing new builds and trying to see what the best rotations are. Recently I used it to tweak my condition Thief build/rotations up to 18k-21k DPS in a group setting, and I was really pleased with how convenient it was.

Rising Dusk.2408:

dekeyz’ config,

What does it do?

It’s just some configuration parameters that yield the most useful and most accurate DPS outputs.

Coulter.2315:

pdavis.8031:

No. An in-game DPS meter will only serve to stoke the ego’s of those who live by such things, and do nothing to promote cooperation, teamwork, or build diversity.

Actually a DPS meter would allow you to tweak and understand your build better, know when best to burst and what could be tightened up in your rotation. As someone who has used a DPS meter in WoW it was the most useful tool to improve my play, having real and accurate data on how your performance translates to damage would be a really helpful thing for the game (esp now raids).

I’ll concede that it might help a person understand their build better. However, I still maintain that it will only be meaningful or useful to those who care about such things (i.e. those who value efficiency and numbers over just enjoying the game and having fun).
As much as this game caters to “casuals”, and the complaints of too many casuals in this game, I don’t think a DPS meter would be well received. It sets a “standard” by which players feel they must play. Instead of running a “fun” build (like my cleric guardian build. It does kitten for damage, yet it’s fun to play) which would produce low DPS numbers, thus implying IN GAME that they are running a “bad” build, and as such shouldn’t be running that, or that that particular build isn’t contributing to the content in any way. The very nature of a DPS meter in game goes against the “Play how you want” philosophy of the game.

Thaddeus.4891

1)That not true that only try-hards are min/maxers care about that. Most people care about having a decent build. Only a small portion of the community want to min/max between assassin and zerker or take the expensive versatile +5stats, etc. That’s the minority. Just like only the minority don’t give a kitten about their build effectiveness at all. The majority is in between. They want a build that they like, but want to make that build a minium efficient. They want to have fun, while having not too much problem beating the game and they surely want to feel like they help their team, not drag them down.

Define decent build? One that does the most damage possible? Or one that a person enjoys playing? (The two are not always the same). Also, it’s impossible to determine how much of the player base is a minority or a majority. If going by the forums, than it might be considered a minority of a minority, which is a very small portion of players.

Thaddeus.4891

2) Seriously? You are still thinking about the almighty zerker gear? Ya Assassins, Sinister, Viper and Zerker isn’t enough to change the way these people talk? Could you guess at least start to talk about glassy gear or offensive only gear and stop with the zerker gear?

Point taken, although my point was that only certain types of gear/builds are acceptable by a certain type of player. All others are deemed useless, sub-par, and the sing of being a bad player.

Thaddeus.4891

3) That the point. People know what is the meta. Having number for the meta isn’t a problem you idiot. They are all over the internet. A dps meter would not help determine how the meta is good. We already have a lot of people doing the math on these build. What a dps meter would help to do is first to give dps data on OTHER BUILD THAN META. Nobody take the time to calculate what is the dps of a minion master or a Marauder Elementalist or a Celestial Engineer. We just know they are less so we assume they are bad. What how much dps they lose? 50%, 30%, 10%?? We don’t know really. Secondly that will give a tool for people to improve themselve. kitten in theory I could do 20k dps, most people show that they are able to reach 18K in-game, but I only do 15K dps. What can I do to improve. Is it my build, my rotation, my positioning? And third and most importantly, that will show to people following the meta like crazy how much they might still do a terrible dps. They will realize that they would do better dps with some non meta build because they have a simpler rotation or work better in the content you are doing, etc. It will show that meta are usually build in a bubble or in the hands of elite players and that the result are not the same in the hand of an average players or in the reality of a fight.

While it might help improve builds other then the meta, a DPS meter would also reinforce the same meta, or establish a new meta. The whole “meta way or the highway” mentality wouldn’t change.

to be continued….

They would never implement DPS meters, it’s basically an official admission of the terrible PvE class balance they’ve allowed to fester for so long.

The entire point of keeping DPS meters disabled is to keep data more difficult to access and to obscure claims of performance under the excuse of “we have the metrics, you don’t”.

pdavis.8031:

However, I still maintain that it will only be meaningful or useful to those who care about such things

This just in DPS meter helps people who care about DPS, now to weather with Michael Fish.

The UI in general needs to be more informative. HP percentages have always been important but are only conveyed through fuzzy and unreliable lines. Animations and hitboxes for skills are not always clear and can sometimes be outright broken (enemy loses stealth mid-cast = no animation at all). No method of determining DPS is supported even though every ‘difficult’ encounter is a DPS check. It just goes on and on…

Personally I could care less. I’m confident enough in my skills and past experiences that I usually perform decent enough to not fear damage meters.

As far as self improvement goes, I don’t see it. At least not as beneficial as everyone is trying to make it out to be.

Let’s look at what players might be interested in damage meters:

- people who want to optimize their build, rotation etc.
- groups who want to improve their composition, rotations, players
- raids

Essentially these are players who already will use methods available to them to optimize their performance. As menttioned, there are 3rd party dps meters that can be run. Maybe arenanet will take an official stance on this.

Now, who might abuse, misuse or misunderstand damage meters:

- players who don’t know what a damage meter is good for
- players who don’t undertand the difference between class roles and that a high damage number might not be given for each role
- players discriminating against certain classes (we all know this will happen)

Essentially all players who lack a general understanding of the game and/or what damage meters are good for (self/build optimizastion).

On the idea of damage meters allowing for build variety: No.

Yes in theory it sounds nice, people can prove their build works, but in reality this will play out differently. There will be 1 or 2 “meta builds” that achieve the highest amount of possible dps no matter what they sacrifice. Bad players will start demanding people run these builds and everything else will get omited. It’s already happening without damage meters and metabattle where players just copy bad builds without customizing them.

Adding damage meters would essentially be a small conveniance addition for already engaged, intelligent and optimizing players, while at the same time a huge addition for more bullying, hostility and discrimination in the player base. It’s happened in every game with damage meters (especially WoW) and it would happen here too.

pdavis.8031:

Define decent build? One that does the most damage possible? Or one that a person enjoys playing? (The two are not always the same). Also, it’s impossible to determine how much of the player base is a minority or a majority. If going by the forums, than it might be considered a minority of a minority, which is a very small portion of players.

A build that a person enjoys playing is just that a build that a person enjoys playing. It doesn’t say anything about the quality of that build.

Of course DPS is a central points. For raids, you just can’t bring a Soldier AH Guardian whatever the level of enjoyment you take from it (unless you are the tank).

But there is several build that work well enough in raid, but that people in pugs choose to ignore because they are not the meta in raid.

The thing is that most people are using dps in the void to see which profession are the best. You have Ele, Herald, Engineer, etc. So people assume these profession are the best in raid and go for it, kicking build that ain’t those and keeping only those build. Their intent is good, because they are pug and don’t know the level of skill of their teamate they ask for the best build they can bring. But in reality, most of the time they hurt themselve.

Raids ain’t in a Void. Take for exemple Engineer. Everybody love engineer and want them. But how many engineer can actually pull the max dps? Probably none. And most of these engineer are often put on circle duty. What are their dps now? Can you be sure that their dps isn’t as good as let say a Pew Pew Ranger or a Longbow camping Guardian? In the end the Engineer can’t use two of his main dps attack for most of the fight (fire bomb and blowtorch). Add the fact that in most squad the circle squad don’t have good buff coverage and you end up with an engineer doing about 8-10k dps only for the whole fight (that include down time during the fight). At that point, the difference between engineer and a LOT of other build is actually non existent or at the disadvantage of the engineer.

It’s the same for most fight in raid. The dps in the void of a profession, doesn’t mean that it will perform better than other build in a specific raid. Or at least the difference in dps is so much smaller, that it doesn’t matter anymore.

Cyninja.2954:

On the idea of damage meters allowing for build variety: No.

Build diversity would eventually settle down until a balance patch, that’s how games work, but it would initially open up a whole lot of builds that are currently considered “bad” to the public’s eyes. Right now it’s really really difficult to get a build socially acceptable, it’s basically a huge PR effort on the communities part because the average joe can’t see the effect of a build.

Bad players will start demanding people run these builds and everything else will get omited. It’s already happening without damage meters and metabattle where players just copy bad builds without customizing them.

You are right. Players are demanding people run certain builds (Bad or good) and it will continue to happen at the exact same rate with or with out damage meters. The thing is with damage meters at least you will be able to filter players based on actual performance and not theoretical performance. Players with a slightly “cheaper” build might be taken more often if it’s proven that they can reliably do the damage needed. On the flip side those that are under performers won’t be able to hide behind their good gear and meta build as easily.

For example: My brother got rejected from a raid I was already in because he had Ruby Orbs in his gear, despite the fact that I know his performance in the raid would have been more than adequate and probably far better than most of the players there. If we had damage meters I could have used the argument “Give him one or two attempts to show you the damage he can do and if it’s not up to par you can kick him”. This probably would have flown because the fear of loss threshold is pretty low on that request, as it was I had no good argument other than my word against their’s.

Adding damage meters would essentially be a small conveniance addition for already engaged, intelligent and optimizing players, while at the same time a huge addition for more bullying, hostility and discrimination in the player base.

It’s unlikely the degree of bullying, hostility and discrimination would change at all simply redirected and at least semi informed. It’d largely remain the same, but it’d change form from “You don’t have full ascended?” or “You aren’t running scholar runes?” to “You did 3k DPS over a 8 minute fight that’s not good enough”. It’s not a “small convenience” either to those who are engaged already it would literally be one of the biggest assets to raiders especially if, as we go forward, enrage timers only get tighter.

There’s a lot of merit to the idea that a DPS meter would increase build diversity – and as people above have stated this might actually be a thing. Why?

DPS right now is calculated using “shady” meters that not a lot of people are willing to risk using ( myself included) because basically the way the ToS is written they can just ban you and that’ll be that.

That means that only a few people can actually test builds, compare and post their results – which the average majority of players have to take at face value.
Now I’m not saying these results are wrong or that this process is a problem – but consider the situation in which every player had a simple tool that didn’t rely on complex math or excel which could tell him how much damage he’s pumping out.

Without the risk of getting banned, without the difficulty of managing a 3rd party piece of software AND the associated math I’m sure a LOT more people would tinker with builds – and while the end result might still be the same ( top builds would be the ones we already get from top theorycrafters) I’m pretty sure it would be a much more satisfying process for people to go out and try out things for themselves without the currently associated risk and difficulty.

Also – regarding community segregation – the community is already segregated – just because we have dps meters doesn’t mean people would discriminate more or less.

pdavis.8031:

No. An in-game DPS meter will only serve to stoke the ego’s of those who live by such things, and do nothing to promote cooperation, teamwork, or build diversity.

Cooperation, teamwork, and build diversity, can only come as a result of people knowing what each one is doing and how well it works.

You have no idea how well the meta builds work in the hands of average players, but still people are told to use the meta builds because ‘they are better’.

No, i don’t think damage meters are there only to feed the ego of tryhards. What i am really realising, is that lazy players don’t want damage meters because then the rest will see that they only want to be carried instead of actually using teamwork and cooperation for the good of the whole team.

Aenesthesia.1697:

pdavis.8031:

No. An in-game DPS meter will only serve to stoke the ego’s of those who live by such things, and do nothing to promote cooperation, teamwork, or build diversity.

Cooperation, teamwork, and build diversity, can only come as a result of people knowing what each one is doing and how well it works.

You have no idea how well the meta builds work in the hands of average players, but still people are told to use the meta builds because ‘they are better’.

No, i don’t think damage meters are there only to feed the ego of tryhards. What i am really realising, is that lazy players don’t want damage meters because then the rest will see that they only want to be carried instead of actually using teamwork and cooperation for the good of the whole team.

I disagree.
Cooperation/teamwork: As it stands now, cooperation and teamwork rely on knowing the mechanics more than anything else (for group content). Knowing when to dodge, when the right time to use an interrupt is, watching for certain animations, etc.
If one knows and understands such mechanics, nearly all content can be completed without incident, regardless of the builds being used.
With the addition of a DPS meter, that cooperation and teamwork go to the way side in favor of having the best possible DPS. So where it didn’t matter what build you had, as long as you knew the fight you were fine (with the execption of the speedrun/meta only crowd). With a DPS meter, now it matters what build you have. Just as there are those who will kick or exclude anyone not running what they deem to be the most optimal builds, there will be those who kick and exclude those who are not outputting the most optimal DPS. How is that promoting cooperation and teamwork? It’s the exact opposite of promoting such things.

Build Diversity:
Sure, at the beginning a DPS meter might encourage people to take a new look at different builds. But once such builds have been examined, there will emerge another meta, or it will remain the same. Either way, people will be expected to run those builds, or be considered (as you put it), lazy players that want to be carried. (Which again, is hardly an attitude that promotes working together….).

So once again we would be back in the same place we are now, but with more of a reason for players to feel superior, blame others for mistakes, and be a general kitten to other players they deem to be “bad”. If anything a DPS meter would just legitimize their being kittens. All with a shiney new meter flashing numbers on your screen.

As it stands now, cooperation and teamwork rely on knowing the mechanics more than anything else (for group content). Knowing when to dodge, when the right time to use an interrupt is, watching for certain animations, etc.
If one knows and understands such mechanics, nearly all content can be completed without incident, regardless of the builds being used.

Except this isn’t true. You can do all of those things perfectly and still not be able to complete raids. Which is where these tools are needed the most.

In games where damage meters are a thing people generally have an understanding of how much DPS or HPS are needed at certain levels. Sure there are outliers that demand ridiculous things but for the most part but they are the exception (They just get a lot of attention because of how ridiculous they often are). I’ve run many many many PUGs in other MMO’s and I’ve rarely seen someone get kicked for damage when things are going well. If everything goes well people usually don’t care about anything except continuing what they are doing.

When things go wrong though is when meters are usually brought up. Yes there can be some toxicity but it’s because raids are a team effort and when you are busting your kitten to accomplish something and you see your teammate slacking there needs to be some accountability. This is generally how things happen in other games when things “go wrong”:

Leader – “Okay, tonight was a little rough, we need everyone to be at least at 10k DPS by next raid or we’ll have to start replacing people with those that can do it”

—next night—

Leader – “Okay Jonny and Sarah you are both sitting at 5k DPS unfortunately that doesn’t cut it for this type of content, we are going to have to replace you tonight. We can talk after the raid to see if we can get your damage up to where it needs to be”

Now lets look at a very real example of what happens in GW2 when things aren’t going right:

Leader – “Guys last attempt we were at 5:45 when the Vale Guardian split. We need to have much better damage if we are going to hit the enrage timer. Make sure you are using the best gear, food and utilities possible and optimizing your rotation.”

4-5 attempts later

Leader – “We are still consistently below the 6 minute mark when the Guardian splits. What’s going on? Why is our DPS not where it should be?”

crickets

No one knows. No one has any idea who’s pulling their weight and who’s not. It’s a complete crap shoot.

There’s a couple things the RL could do at this point:

1. Have everyone link him their gear. This would require some extensive knowledge of almost every profession and what their best build is (Or even viable builds, many professions have multiple raid viable builds). It would require them to start discriminating based on gear. They may end up dropping their most valuable player simply because he has a few less than optimal pieces of gear. It’d also take hours to figure out where the problems are.

2. Continue attempting without really changing anything and hope people magically get better (generally they won’t). If things don’t improve people will stop having fun and stop showing up, usually the first ones to go are the ones who are actually the best players.

Neither of these are good options. It’s unlikely you’ll find the problem with either and it’s unlikely you’ll be able to get past this hurdle either because you simply don’t have the information available to make an informed decision. Damage meter would make this a fairly simple decision. Sure, one maybe two people might get their feelings a little hurt, but you won’t have 10 people frustrated and getting burnt out.

TL;DR – Part of teamwork and cooperation is accountability and without tools like damage meters leaders can only make guesses at who’s doing their job and who’s not.

Pandabro.8743:

TL;DR – Part of teamwork and cooperation is accountability and without tools like damage meters leaders can only make guesses at who’s doing their job and who’s not.

I can appreciate your point. And can see that in raids specifically, DPS meters could be useful. However, this is precisely why I said nearly all content.

Also the examples you gave are about what should happen, in an ideal situation. The reality is that the RL in the first example would be more akin to:
RL: “Whose the kitten that caused us to fail!?” -scans dps meter (assuming a public one)- Player X and Y you kitten noobs!! L2P!!! Get gud! /kicks

You see this happen in dungeons, and other group content that fails quite often (and this is without a DPS meter).

Next Day player X and player Y are in group
RL: kicks on sight

It is also worthy to note that both examples are in a guild group, with a good guild leader. Not all guild leaders would even do that with most of their guildies. Heck, one of the first guilds I was in, the guild leader and some other members were actually saying some nasty things about me because I didn’t want to pay to transfer servers. Until they discovered I was on TS with them… (but thats a whole different story).

With pugs I am sure that this wouldn’t be the case. After all, they are “just pugs”. It’s easier to justify kicking someone you don’t know, than it is one of your friends/guild members.

Also here is an interesting article about DPS meters in general:
http://blessingofkings.blogspot.com/2015/10/dps-meters-and-player-behavior.html

That’s an interesting read. I’m skeptical of the relatively small sample size but it brings up some good points that my personal experiences can support.

I realize that raids are the only thing that really necessitates these types of tools, which is why I think it’d be fine if they were only available in raids.

So it’s really a choice of picking your poison. Without meters, runs that have negative outcomes like excessive slowness or wipes incur harassment from the very people who most likely cause the problem in the first place. With meters, a run that is successful might very well still see harassment, just because one player thinks another player is not living up to an arbitrary standard.

I guess I personally prefer the second scenario to the first. In group play I’d rather have too much accountability than not enough.

pdavis.8031:

You see this happen in dungeons, and other group content that fails quite often (and this is without a DPS meter).

So people already get kicked for guesses.. The DPS meter would actually give you a defense against complaints.

When playing WoW people in Dungeon Finder would sometimes make remarks if they saw you had bad gear, but you’d then get to show them how you being a good player and knowing what to do caused you to eclipse them on the DPS meter – this is the perfect revenge and something to savour.

The DPS meter also will open up build diversity. Right now I want to test confusion builds (cannot test on dummies or spreadsheets – Tequatl is kittening hilarious, stack before he breathes ^^), I do not know (without an “ok” from anet) if I will be allowed to use a 3rd party DPS meter and would be scared to do so. Thats just me, imagine all the people in the game who could run an experiment, get data and be able to prove their idea works well on boss X or Y. You will get TONS of inventive and creative builds suddenly coming forward with real proof.

Worrying that some people would misuse them is like asking TV not to be invented because the Kardashians (sp?) might get famous. Yes it will happen, but its worth it for the greater good.

Coulter.2315:

The DPS meter also will open up build diversity. Right now I want to test confusion builds (cannot test on dummies or spreadsheets – Tequatl is kittening hilarious, stack before he breathes ^^), I do not know (without an “ok” from anet) if I will be allowed to use a 3rd party DPS meter and would be scared to do so. Thats just me, imagine all the people in the game who could run an experiment, get data and be able to prove their idea works well on boss X or Y. You will get TONS of inventive and creative builds suddenly coming forward with real proof.

This is already being done by raid guilds via spreadsheets, parsers and rotation simulations. The data is out there. Near optimal builds for maximising damage rotations are available and quite a few players are constantly trying out new things.

That being said, the amount of variables are limited. Expecting to come up with a new genious build no one has ever thought of are near 0. Sure you might pride yourself that you came up with a similar build that someone else already created, but always assume there is another player out there with:

- more time
- more knowledge
- more data
- more creativity

unless you are a basement dweling, 12-14 hours per day playing, creative, hobby mathematician. Then yes, you might have a valid point in that damage meters would help your work. Doesn’t change the fact that if you are this obsessed with the game, the 3rd party damage parsers work for you just as well for now.

Coulter.2315:

Worrying that some people would misuse them is like asking TV not to be invented because the Kardashians (sp?) might get famous. Yes it will happen, but its worth it for the greater good.

Yeah, no. That example is no where near similar.

The effect TV has on society as a whole is way less noticable to the individual than a change of behavior in a small community.

The possible negativ impacts on a MMO community are way more drastic than global social change. This has been visible in every step that arenanet (or other MMO developers) have taken. Best example is the elitism around harder content.

Saying that negative changes are “worth it” for the greater good would mean that the “greater good” is actually of value.

As is NO content in Guild Wars 2 requires this amount of optimisation. The chance of this being required is doubtful at best the way the game is and has been headed (aka being very casual). So essentially no, adding a nearly meaningless damage meter option which is not required does not qualify as being more valuable than possible negative results in the games playerbase.

Cyninja.2954:

Coulter.2315:

The DPS meter also will open up build diversity. Right now I want to test confusion builds (cannot test on dummies or spreadsheets – Tequatl is kittening hilarious, stack before he breathes ^^), I do not know (without an “ok” from anet) if I will be allowed to use a 3rd party DPS meter and would be scared to do so. Thats just me, imagine all the people in the game who could run an experiment, get data and be able to prove their idea works well on boss X or Y. You will get TONS of inventive and creative builds suddenly coming forward with real proof.

This is already being done by raid guilds via spreadsheets, parsers and rotation simulations. The data is out there. Near optimal builds for maximising damage rotations are available and quite a few players are constantly trying out new things.

That being said, the amount of variables are limited. Expecting to come up with a new genious build no one has ever thought of are near 0. Sure you might pride yourself that you came up with a similar build that someone else already created, but always assume there is another player out there with:

- more time
- more knowledge
- more data
- more creativity

unless you are a basement dweling, 12-14 hours per day playing, creative, hobby mathematician. Then yes, you might have a valid point in that damage meters would help your work. Doesn’t change the fact that if you are this obsessed with the game, the 3rd party damage parsers work for you just as well for now.

Coulter.2315:

Worrying that some people would misuse them is like asking TV not to be invented because the Kardashians (sp?) might get famous. Yes it will happen, but its worth it for the greater good.

Yeah, no. That example is no where near similar.

The effect TV has on society as a whole is way less noticable to the individual than a change of behavior in a small community.

The possible negativ impacts on a MMO community are way more drastic than global social change. This has been visible in every step that arenanet (or other MMO developers) have taken. Best example is the elitism around harder content.

Saying that negative changes are “worth it” for the greater good would mean that the “greater good” is actually of value.

As is NO content in Guild Wars 2 requires this amount of optimisation. The chance of this being required is doubtful at best the way the game is and has been headed (aka being very casual). So essentially no, adding a nearly meaningless damage meter option which is not required does not qualify as being more valuable than possible negative results in the games playerbase.

Spreadsheets cannot model confusion for different bosses, so actually yes in game DPS meters are needed for that.

Anet haven’t given sanction to third part program DPS meters.

You genuinely think TV hasn’t changed society in a noticable way? Wow.. I’ll just pretend you said that out of passion.

You seem to be ignoring personal improvement as the primary reason for it.

Why are you scared of DPS meters? Being provably incompetent?

Cyninja.2954:

Best example is the elitism around harder content.

The desire to not fail despite playing correctly is not elitism.

Coulter.2315:

Spreadsheets cannot model confusion for different bosses, so actually yes in game DPS meters are needed for that.

Anet haven’t given sanction to third part program DPS meters.

You genuinely think TV hasn’t changed society in a noticable way? Wow.. I’ll just pretend you said that out of passion.

You seem to be ignoring personal improvement as the primary reason for it.

Why are you scared of DPS meters? Being provably incompetent?

No such modeling is needed for any ingame GW2 content. Again, the game is not so hard as that it warrents this kind of optimisation, especially when the possible fracture of the community gets increased.

Also reading comprehension please. I never said TV did not change society. I said the effects of TV on such a huge scale are less visible and direct to an individual compared to a way smaller group of people expriencing massive change to their smaller community.

Coldtart.4785:

Cyninja.2954:

Best example is the elitism around harder content.

The desire to not fail despite playing correctly is not elitism.

True, though not failing at GW2 is easy enough without dps meters. If you need dps meters to “not fail” at any GW2 content, you have way more serious problems to deal with than the addition of damage meters.

Cyninja.2954:

Coulter.2315:

Spreadsheets cannot model confusion for different bosses, so actually yes in game DPS meters are needed for that.

Anet haven’t given sanction to third part program DPS meters.

You genuinely think TV hasn’t changed society in a noticable way? Wow.. I’ll just pretend you said that out of passion.

You seem to be ignoring personal improvement as the primary reason for it.

Why are you scared of DPS meters? Being provably incompetent?

No such modeling is needed for any ingame GW2 content. Again, the game is not so hard as that it warrents this kind of optimisation, especially when the possible fracture of the community gets increased.

Also reading comprehension please. I never said TV did not change society. I said the effects of TV on such a huge scale are less visible and direct to an individual compared to a way smaller group of people expriencing massive change to their smaller community.

Coldtart.4785:

Cyninja.2954:

Best example is the elitism around harder content.

The desire to not fail despite playing correctly is not elitism.

True, though not failing at GW2 is easy enough without dps meters. If you need dps meters to “not fail” at any GW2 content, you have way more serious problems to deal with than the addition of damage meters.

You really don’t have any worth in determining what would fracture our community, your fears and declarations are not prophesy. The community will maybe change but that is for the community to decide, not you. Extra valuable information of personal performance and ability to prove good builds would be an excellent addition to the game.

pdavis.8031:

I’ll concede that it might help a person understand their build better. However, I still maintain that it will only be meaningful or useful to those who care about such things (i.e. those who value efficiency and numbers over just enjoying the game and having fun).

I don’t understand these kind of comments. Why suggest what someone should get out of the game? You seem to be under the impression “those who value efficiency” and “enjoying the game and having fun” are somehow mutually exclusive. For plenty of us, they are not. In fact, they are intertwined.

Cyninja.2954:

True, though not failing at GW2 is easy enough without dps meters. If you need dps meters to “not fail” at any GW2 content, you have way more serious problems to deal with than the addition of damage meters.

How did you get that from what I wrote? I was responding to your claims that there is rampant elitism around content. I don’t need dps meters to play my own builds correctly.

The point of my post was that it’s not elitism to expect people to pull their weight. The only ‘serious problems’ I have to deal with is that I can play a piece of content correctly and still lose because of other players not contributing.

Most GW 2 players can’t even handle or don’t want to use the TP correctly a.k.a. they are selling their stuff asap for a lower gold value so I highly doubt that DPS meters will change anything at all.
The raid is pretty much non-casual af and almost no one that hasn’t been successful yet is trying it nowadays. As a result DPS meters would only be used by ambitious raid players and yeah, they don’t need them due to knowing what is possible & good and what not.
For the rest of the PvE game a DPS meter is useless.
Joe Gamer wants to have fun in this game, I never heard him saying: “kitten , I need to see my actual damage done but if I see it, I would be willing to improve myself.”
That will never ever gonna happen!

Coldtart.4785:

Cyninja.2954:

True, though not failing at GW2 is easy enough without dps meters. If you need dps meters to “not fail” at any GW2 content, you have way more serious problems to deal with than the addition of damage meters.

How did you get that from what I wrote? I was responding to your claims that there is rampant elitism around content. I don’t need dps meters to play my own builds correctly.

The point of my post was that it’s not elitism to expect people to pull their weight. The only ‘serious problems’ I have to deal with is that I can play a piece of content correctly and still lose because of other players not contributing.

I was taking your point and assuming it had to do with the topic of this thread at hand.

If I misstook your comment and you actually ment elitism in general, then sorry, no to that too.

Elitism as defined by -

1
: leadership or rule by an elite

2
: the selectivity of the elite; especially : snobbery <elitism in choosing new members>

3
: consciousness of being or belonging to an elite

- http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/elitism

1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their superiority, as in intelligence, social standing, or wealth.

- http://www.thefreedictionary.com/elitism

The belief that one’s social group is superior to another group. elitist

- http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=elitism

In general elitism has a negativ connotation and was used as such by me. In GW2 I was refering to people feeling better or more important than others and verbaly, or otherwise, abusing their peers (aka flaming, cursing, blaming, etc.) over ingame content.

Yes, it’s fine to be excited, passionate, striving, etc. about completing ingame content (how ever hard that content might be), but there is no reason to be a kitten about it to others.

GW2 has no DPS meters and yet its elitism and build/class demands are even worse than games like WoW. In no moment in WoW have I been denied in a PuG or seen LFG messages saying “only these classes and specs, not these others”.

And that’s with DPS meters and even further, combat logging analytic tools.

And yet you’re acting as if this game gaining a DPS meter will be the difference between elitism and not having it, as if people were so stupid as to no realize that some classes are doing so much more damage than other classes and often these very classes also have overwhelmingly good utility to boot.

You may like to stick your head in the sand, but that doesn’t mean everybody else doesn’t have alts and realize how certain classes perform compared to others while you waste people’s time with your PHIW staff condi necro.

Zenith.7301:

GW2 has no DPS meters and yet its elitism and build/class demands are even worse than games like WoW. In no moment in WoW have I been denied in a PuG or seen LFG messages saying “only these classes and specs, not these others”.

And that’s with DPS meters and even further, combat logging analytic tools.

And yet you’re acting as if this game gaining a DPS meter will be the difference between elitism and not having it, as if people were so stupid as to no realize that some classes are doing so much more damage than other classes and often these very classes also have overwhelmingly good utility to boot.

You may like to stick your head in the sand, but that doesn’t mean everybody else doesn’t have alts and realize how certain classes perform compared to others while you waste people’s time with your PHIW staff condi necro.

You must have not played a lot of WoW, or only with friends/guildies or only the LFR if at all with chat turned off.

Funny thing, playing with friends/guildies here will also cause a lot less heartache.

Here is a hint, if it comes to elitism, don’t bring up WoW. There is enough MMO players who have spent a VERY long time in WoW in the past, present or future to know when they are getting bsed.

Saying there is no elitism in WoW will definately hurt your credibility.

I’m not even going to open the can that is: gearscore, or discrimination vs tanks/healers (back when tanks/healers actually had to do stuff in wow), discrimination versus certain builds or just general balance rotation of classes Blizzard runs.

pdavis.8031:

Aenesthesia.1697:

pdavis.8031:

No. An in-game DPS meter will only serve to stoke the ego’s of those who live by such things, and do nothing to promote cooperation, teamwork, or build diversity.

Cooperation, teamwork, and build diversity, can only come as a result of people knowing what each one is doing and how well it works.

You have no idea how well the meta builds work in the hands of average players, but still people are told to use the meta builds because ‘they are better’.

No, i don’t think damage meters are there only to feed the ego of tryhards. What i am really realising, is that lazy players don’t want damage meters because then the rest will see that they only want to be carried instead of actually using teamwork and cooperation for the good of the whole team.

I disagree.
Cooperation/teamwork: As it stands now, cooperation and teamwork rely on knowing the mechanics more than anything else (for group content). Knowing when to dodge, when the right time to use an interrupt is, watching for certain animations, etc.
If one knows and understands such mechanics, nearly all content can be completed without incident, regardless of the builds being used.
With the addition of a DPS meter, that cooperation and teamwork go to the way side in favor of having the best possible DPS. So where it didn’t matter what build you had, as long as you knew the fight you were fine (with the execption of the speedrun/meta only crowd). With a DPS meter, now it matters what build you have. Just as there are those who will kick or exclude anyone not running what they deem to be the most optimal builds, there will be those who kick and exclude those who are not outputting the most optimal DPS. How is that promoting cooperation and teamwork? It’s the exact opposite of promoting such things.

Build Diversity:
Sure, at the beginning a DPS meter might encourage people to take a new look at different builds. But once such builds have been examined, there will emerge another meta, or it will remain the same. Either way, people will be expected to run those builds, or be considered (as you put it), lazy players that want to be carried. (Which again, is hardly an attitude that promotes working together….).

So once again we would be back in the same place we are now, but with more of a reason for players to feel superior, blame others for mistakes, and be a general kitten to other players they deem to be “bad”. If anything a DPS meter would just legitimize their being kittens. All with a shiney new meter flashing numbers on your screen.

Because with a dps meter you’re no longer measuring spreadsheet DPS and you can actually prove your skill and ability even if your build is suboptimal for some reason.

Also – DPS is not something that matters all the time – most VG runs fail now not because of lack of dps but because people fail mechanics.

Either way, people will be expected to run those builds, or be considered (as you put it), lazy players that want to be carried. (Which again, is hardly an attitude that promotes working together….).

We already have this now – how is a dps meter a problem in this case?

So once again we would be back in the same place we are now, but with more of a reason for players to feel superior, blame others for mistakes, and be a general kitten to other players they deem to be “bad”. If anything a DPS meter would just legitimize their being kittens. All with a shiney new meter flashing numbers on your screen

It would also give players a chance to test builds, and prove themselves.

Let’s face it – a lack of a dps meter doesn’t mean certain players won’t feel they’re within their rights to kick you and tell you your build is bad.

Just make this raid exclusive and give agree/disagree on using DPS meter for the raid squad before entering the Spirit Vale. My group and I were trying to go for record run on VG and we have very little information of our DPS other than vaguely checking the phase time and noting that some people go down due to whatever reason.

Sorin.4310:

pdavis.8031:

I’ll concede that it might help a person understand their build better. However, I still maintain that it will only be meaningful or useful to those who care about such things (i.e. those who value efficiency and numbers over just enjoying the game and having fun).

I don’t understand these kind of comments. Why suggest what someone should get out of the game? You seem to be under the impression “those who value efficiency” and “enjoying the game and having fun” are somehow mutually exclusive. For plenty of us, they are not. In fact, they are intertwined.

While these descriptions of different types of players are not mutually exclusive, it is important to note that “fun” is a very relative term. However, even in this thread, those who play to “have fun” (i.e. with non-meta/“sup par” builds) are criticized. We are called lazy, expect to be carried, bad players, etc. It is apparent that those who choose to play the most optimal way possible, and have fun doing so, seem to think that anyone who doesn’t play according to how they themselves have fun, that they are somehow “less than”.
They way this game is set up, with the various mechanics and again perhaps excepting raids, it doesn’t really matter what build you run. As long as you are a fairly competent player, know your build and how to play it, and a general idea of boss mechanics, you can succeed, and enjoy doing it.
As an example. I once ran a naked condi necro in PVP (no armor or runes). I was mocked and insulted, and criticized for it. I had my highest kill rate to date. Or with my cleric bunker guardian. Held points and had my lowest death rate to date. But it’s a “bad” build. It was considered “sub par”, less than useless, and because of which I was a bad player. Both were really fun to play.

In conclusion, fun means different things to different people. What one person feels is fun should not be pushed on another. Which is precisely what the “optimization” crowd does to the “PHIW” crowd. Giving advice or a build when asked is fine, but it’s not okay when people are judged on what build they run simply because it’s not what a person deems enjoyable.