Guild Wars 2

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Harper.4173:

Because with a dps meter you’re no longer measuring spreadsheet DPS and you can actually prove your skill and ability even if your build is suboptimal for some reason.

Also – DPS is not something that matters all the time – most VG runs fail now not because of lack of dps but because people fail mechanics.

Which is one of the points I made earlier.

Either way, people will be expected to run those builds, or be considered (as you put it), lazy players that want to be carried. (Which again, is hardly an attitude that promotes working together….).

Harper.4173:

We already have this now – how is a dps meter a problem in this case?

A DPS meter won’t help improve the situation. If anything it’ll give more opportunity to discriminate against players that certain other players already feel are bad.

Harper.4173:

It would also give players a chance to test builds, and prove themselves.

Let’s face it – a lack of a dps meter doesn’t mean certain players won’t feel they’re within their rights to kick you and tell you your build is bad.

This is true, however with a DPS meter, those players will feel justified in doing so. In the end the only thing that a DPS meter will accomplish is separating the player base even more. Those who feel that the only those with the highest DPS are worthy, versus those who would rather just play the game and not worry about reaching a certain set of numbers.

So let me ask you this. If there is already this type of separation of players, how will a DPS meter bring those different groups together?

Let me tell you one important piece of information – anyone who’s going to kick you doesn’t need a dps meter to validate or justify his want to kick you. He will kick you.

I haven’t once been in a position where I thought : gee I would kick this person but I can’t be sure or not if it is or isn’t his fault so I won’t kick him.
If I’ve thought about kicking someone I’ve kicked them – that simple.

A dps meter in my opinion( after all our disagreement is a matter of opinion) would allow people who kick to double check if the people they’re going to kick are actually doing poorly.

You have to accept that people who feel that highest dps is the only thing that’s worthy will kick you over a gear ping. They’ll kick you for going down at the wrong time – they’re not going to keep you unless you appear 100% perfect.
With a DPS meter you can at least defend yourself and prove that despite your gear or some appearances you are pulling your weight.

To answer your question – it will not. Because those groups should not be playing together in the fist place.
One group takes the game very seriously – almost job-like ( someone like me) – and some take it very lightly.
How can we play together when our goals are completely different? Our means completely different?

Tension and conflict arise from the lack of compatibility – forcing these groups together is the reasons casuals and elitists are frustrated – they rub on each other the wrong way.

The way to improve this is not to find more ways to force them together but more ways to allow them to steer clear of each other – so that in the end conflict is reduced to a minimum.

Apart from that – the situation is already in place – the separation is already here – a dps meter isn’t going to make it worse ( in my opinion) because honestly it can’t get any worse than “ping 10 legendary insights or kick”.

pdavis.8031:

A DPS meter won’t help improve the situation. If anything it’ll give more opportunity to discriminate against players that certain other players already feel are bad.

…

This is true, however with a DPS meter, those players will feel justified in doing so. In the end the only thing that a DPS meter will accomplish is separating the player base even more. Those who feel that the only those with the highest DPS are worthy, versus those who would rather just play the game and not worry about reaching a certain set of numbers.

So let me ask you this. If there is already this type of separation of players, how will a DPS meter bring those different groups together?

Nothing will bring these two groups together in a meeting of the minds. Nothing. They want different things from play. Only one thing would get them thinking alike. That would be for both groups to recognize the others want different things and they decide to hang with the people who want what they want. Fat chance of that happening with a random grouping tool and the attitude that someone should be able to get a group right kitten now.

Currently, kicks are taking place based on suspicion and adherence to a PuG meta that is often behind the real meta. If exclusion is going to happen — and it will — it would benefit those who feel their non-meta build is competitive to be able to prove it. The guy whose build is not competitive will not benefit, but as it is now, he’s going to be excluded anyway. So, the question comes down to how many would benefit.

Yes, a meter might result in the exclusion of players who are currently skating by. But the question in my mind is, “How are they skating by?” Maybe their build/play is competitive, but if it is, a meter would show that. If it isn’t competitive, then there are two possibilities. They don’t know that they don’t meet the group’s stated requirements, or they do. If they don’t, the meter would provide information which would allow them to choose whether to change or not. If they do know then they’re being dishonest, deliberately misleading by false pings or the like. Is the latter the group you’re defending? As it stands, it looks to me that everyone else would either benefit or be no worse off.

What you fail to understand Indigo is that people have a right to sneak into good groups and get carried. It’s their right – who are you to take it away from them?

Sarcasm aside.

It’s people who are unwilling to change or put in the effort that are most afraid they’ll be “excluded” – because they know they’re not going to make the cut and aren’t willing to improve OR find other people who will accept them.

Because finding others who are of the same mindset as your own takes time and effort – and nobody wants to put that in when you can just “force” other better players to carry you along.

A dps meter is just a tool for people to use, it is not inherently good or evil. It’s what you do with it that counts. Someone picks up a hammer and uses it to build a house. Someone else throws it at the person next to them. And a third picks up a bunch of different hammers to see which is the best for pounding nails. Sure some people will use a dps meter to discriminate but do you want to play with those kinds of people anyway? It’s the same when people complain about people who stand on a certain pole in a swamp, if that’s not your play style then make your own group.

I have to admit, I find them extremely useful but I don’t see anet EVER introducing them because of all the conflcit they would cause. You can imagine the issues that would come up?

Active dps meter in raid is really bad idea. I remember (lf xx k dps xxx) no. But it is still room for some improovements, learning your class, and crafting your build.

Everyone know that in pvp lobby you have training dummy. So what about make some kind of this in guild hall/your home. (Sure for gems, for this Anet can be rewarded) let me explain this:

To your GH or home you can buy testing arena. It will have various option. Before you enter, you can manage how much hp/toughness will dummy have(not by numbers but easilly: low, medium, high.. You can manage boons what you have(how many might etc) how much vulnerability dummy will have etc… for thoose who want raid enviroment. Next can be that dummy will moving(practice for ele, engi.. With ground targeting)

How we will get our dps? Very easy by time. We can have timer and only complain our times how long we need for kill dummy.
This can help us manage builds for group.

But still I think that argument of that dmg meter make more toxic players is not true, it will only show up unbalance between proffesions.

So I have a question, does ArenaNet outright say that using a DPS meter for the sake of oneself to perform better. Is actually 100% against the ToS and is indeed bannable?

I’m not using a DPS meter, but I, like probably many others, would like to compare builds for min/maxing purposes and dps performance in raids for instance.

So getting some real actual facts about what is permitted and not when it comes to a DPS meter. Would be very good to know.

Does someone have or can provide any real facts that is set in stone?

It’s a simple matter really. If you need your answer, you should go to LFG, or one of your guild chats, and see how many raid groups are LF Burnzerkers. Their superiority is pretty obvious from the burn ticks (no metric needed). It’s also no secret that this game’s community is all about the fastest/most efficient methods, made even more obvious by the “swamping all day ERRDAY” era of fractals.

I shall peer into my looking glass and predict the steps of what will happen, upon the inclusion of a dps meter:
1) builds get tested
2) HIGHEST damage build(s) identified (with actual 100% reliable data)
3) Discrimination
4) worse off than we are now

What you all should be asking for is engaging group mechanics that make use actual class/combat dynamics, instead of the dps race+circus game junk that this first raid wing is.

David.5974:

-snip-

That’s not really all that useful. The major advantage to a dps meter is being able to test various builds and rotations in the actual fights. The drawback of theoretical methods like spreadsheets or a test target is that they can’t factor in environmental conditions; e.g. the optimal rotations for Gorseval are not the same as the optimal rotations for Sabetha, even if you’re using the same build. There’s also no reliable way to calculate dps for the ranged team on Vale Guardian.

A dps meter is the only way to get real, useful data on build performance in raids.

Mitch.4781:

I have to admit, I find them extremely useful but I don’t see anet EVER introducing them because of all the conflcit they would cause. You can imagine the issues that would come up?

They don’t need to put them visible for everybody. They just need to make is visible only by the player using the dps meter. That ways, people that want to share between them to compare and improve each other will be able to do so. But people won’t be able to discriminate with it.

90% of the feature for 0% of the the conflicts.

Sansarah.3076:

So I have a question, does ArenaNet outright say that using a DPS meter for the sake of oneself to perform better. Is actually 100% against the ToS and is indeed bannable?

I’m not using a DPS meter, but I, like probably many others, would like to compare builds for min/maxing purposes and dps performance in raids for instance.

So getting some real actual facts about what is permitted and not when it comes to a DPS meter. Would be very good to know.

Does someone have or can provide any real facts that is set in stone?

Being a third party add-on they won’t say one way or another. However, they will point to the ToS section talking about third party add-ons, and encourage you to use your own judgement. However, it is possible that using one, even as innocent as a personal DPS meter, may be a cause for suspicion and result in a ban. So using such things is at your own risk.

I shall peer into my looking glass and predict the steps of what will happen, upon the inclusion of a dps meter:
1) builds get tested
2) HIGHEST damage build(s) identified (with actual 100% reliable data)
3) Discrimination
4) worse off than we are now

This will only happen if balance is so far off that one or two single professions is doing exponentially more damage than others -OR- if there are certain professions that simply have a very hard time contributing the correct damage. Which is a balance issue. Currently Burnzerkers are a balance issue.

If professions are within 10-15% of each other then player skill will trump class balance. In games with damage meters you only really see a lot of class discrimination at the very top of the population. Most people realize that all classes are capable and are much more willing to let people prove their worth.

pdavis.8031:

Sansarah.3076:

So I have a question, does ArenaNet outright say that using a DPS meter for the sake of oneself to perform better. Is actually 100% against the ToS and is indeed bannable?

I’m not using a DPS meter, but I, like probably many others, would like to compare builds for min/maxing purposes and dps performance in raids for instance.

So getting some real actual facts about what is permitted and not when it comes to a DPS meter. Would be very good to know.

Does someone have or can provide any real facts that is set in stone?

Being a third party add-on they won’t say one way or another. However, they will point to the ToS section talking about third party add-ons, and encourage you to use your own judgement. However, it is possible that using one, even as innocent as a personal DPS meter, may be a cause for suspicion and result in a ban. So using such things is at your own risk.

Yeah which is what is being said all out through the thread. But using such an item only to risk being banned isn’t worth it. I mean they went out in public and said that macro’ing music is allowed as long as it’s only for that purpose, why can’t they give us a straight answer here?

A simple No, that’s not allowed, don’t do it. Is good enough.
Or Yes, it’s allowed, go ahead and use it.

It’s not rocket science.. :P

In most cases Elementalist does more DPS than condi warrior. So why are people begging for condi warrior to be nerfed and not elementalist? Answer that question and you will understand that DPS meters won’t increase discrimination anymore than there already is.

Frifox used his dps meter which read game files for over 2 years(that part of the ToS that everyone brings up), and he did eventually get banned.

For fly hacking. Because mesmers don’t have a leap skill like other classes. Because he wanted to test mesmer coefficients to create a spreadsheet he gave others free access to to improve on their knowledge of mesmer potential.

No one has reported being banned for using a dps meter.

Sansarah.3076:

pdavis.8031:

Sansarah.3076:

So I have a question, does ArenaNet outright say that using a DPS meter for the sake of oneself to perform better. Is actually 100% against the ToS and is indeed bannable?

I’m not using a DPS meter, but I, like probably many others, would like to compare builds for min/maxing purposes and dps performance in raids for instance.

So getting some real actual facts about what is permitted and not when it comes to a DPS meter. Would be very good to know.

Does someone have or can provide any real facts that is set in stone?

Being a third party add-on they won’t say one way or another. However, they will point to the ToS section talking about third party add-ons, and encourage you to use your own judgement. However, it is possible that using one, even as innocent as a personal DPS meter, may be a cause for suspicion and result in a ban. So using such things is at your own risk.

Yeah which is what is being said all out through the thread. But using such an item only to risk being banned isn’t worth it. I mean they went out in public and said that macro’ing music is allowed as long as it’s only for that purpose, why can’t they give us a straight answer here?

A simple No, that’s not allowed, don’t do it. Is good enough.
Or Yes, it’s allowed, go ahead and use it.

It’s not rocket science.. :P

I’ve asked exactly the same thing. Dev’s response was: We cannot, and will not, vet any third party program. Period. Any third party program is used at your own risk.

It’s really a matter of policy.
Let’s say the devs come out and say, it’s ok to use DPS meters. There are dozens at the very least, DPS meters out there, that work in a variety of ways. Turns out that several of them work with the game in such a way that leaves it open and easy to hack/cheat. This will of course be taken advantage of. Now, when an account is actioned due to said hacking/cheating, the hacker now has a legal claim, as DPS meters were approved, and as such he could not be held liable for what the program does, and his taking advantage of that.

Although this is my reasoning as to why they won’t outright state that certain adds-ons can or cannot be used, as well as copyright, licensing, and other legal matters. But it makes sense to me.

Zeeran.6027:

I shall peer into my looking glass and predict the steps of what will happen, upon the inclusion of a dps meter:
1) builds get tested
2) HIGHEST damage build(s) identified (with actual 100% reliable data)
3) Discrimination
4) worse off than we are now

I’m curious why you think 4 will happen? Also 3 is not a bad thing, do you discriminate over which exit to your house is best, door or window? If you’re using the door because its quicker, more secure and safer then you’re discriminating over a logical reason.

Coulter.2315:

Zeeran.6027:

I shall peer into my looking glass and predict the steps of what will happen, upon the inclusion of a dps meter:
1) builds get tested
2) HIGHEST damage build(s) identified (with actual 100% reliable data)
3) Discrimination
4) worse off than we are now

I’m curious why you think 4 will happen? Also 3 is not a bad thing, do you discriminate over which exit to your house is best, door or window? If you’re using the door because its quicker, more secure and safer then you’re discriminating over a logical reason.

Experience.

Experience from other MMOs is what most people usually fall back on when comparing changes made.

Also your anoalogy does not even fit the current situation.

No one is discriminating (at least I’m not) against damage meters due to logic or it being useful reasons. People are against it (again, at least I am) due to illogical, discriminatory and unreasonable human character flaws which are found every time people who do not know each other interact.

The game is far from needing this amount of optimization. If you want to felx your kitten, do that in some other game, there are enough MMOs on the market which will allow you to do just that.

Cyninja.2954:

Coulter.2315:

Zeeran.6027:

I shall peer into my looking glass and predict the steps of what will happen, upon the inclusion of a dps meter:
1) builds get tested
2) HIGHEST damage build(s) identified (with actual 100% reliable data)
3) Discrimination
4) worse off than we are now

I’m curious why you think 4 will happen? Also 3 is not a bad thing, do you discriminate over which exit to your house is best, door or window? If you’re using the door because its quicker, more secure and safer then you’re discriminating over a logical reason.

Experience.

Experience from other MMOs is what most people usually fall back on when comparing changes made.

Also your anoalogy does not even fit the current situation.

No one is discriminating (at least I’m not) against damage meters due to logic or it being useful reasons. People are against it (again, at least I am) due to illogical, discriminatory and unreasonable human character flaws which are found every time people who do not know each other interact.

The game is far from needing this amount of optimization. If you want to felx your kitten, do that in some other game, there are enough MMOs on the market which will allow you to do just that.

xD I was meaning discrimination is not a bad thing.. I then gave an example of why it isn’t a bad thing and how YOU discriminate daily (as does EVERYONE else). I was not sayng “you are discriminating against DPS meters.” Sorry for confusion.

Saying “DPS meters will lead to discrimination!” is like saying “Letting people see will lead to discrimination!” both are true and both situations reveal more about the world than just sorting people into piles (which is what you are focused on not letting happen – even though it has already happened but with guessing instead of data).

[just to spell it out : people who can see can now discriminate based on looks but can also see lots of other things, people with dps meters can discriminate on who is pulling their weight but also develop their own and others’ gameplay]

[just to spell out before : YOU discriminate on the exit to your house, deciding the door is better than window]

Maybe you should look up what discriminate means, it is not a synonym of prejudice. On a related topic I highly recommend looking up Tim Minchin – Prejudice, much funnies.

Coulter.2315:

Cyninja.2954:

Coulter.2315:

Zeeran.6027:

I shall peer into my looking glass and predict the steps of what will happen, upon the inclusion of a dps meter:
1) builds get tested
2) HIGHEST damage build(s) identified (with actual 100% reliable data)
3) Discrimination
4) worse off than we are now

I’m curious why you think 4 will happen? Also 3 is not a bad thing, do you discriminate over which exit to your house is best, door or window? If you’re using the door because its quicker, more secure and safer then you’re discriminating over a logical reason.

Experience.

Experience from other MMOs is what most people usually fall back on when comparing changes made.

Also your anoalogy does not even fit the current situation.

No one is discriminating (at least I’m not) against damage meters due to logic or it being useful reasons. People are against it (again, at least I am) due to illogical, discriminatory and unreasonable human character flaws which are found every time people who do not know each other interact.

The game is far from needing this amount of optimization. If you want to felx your kitten, do that in some other game, there are enough MMOs on the market which will allow you to do just that.

xD I was meaning discrimination is not a bad thing.. I then gave an example of why it isn’t a bad thing and how YOU discriminate daily (as does EVERYONE else). I was not sayng “you are discriminating against DPS meters.” Sorry for confusion.

Saying “DPS meters will lead to discrimination!” is like saying “Letting people see will lead to discrimination!” both are true and both situations reveal more about the world than just sorting people into piles (which is what you are focused on not letting happen – even though it has already happened but with guessing instead of data).

[just to spell it out : people who can see can now discriminate based on looks but can also see lots of other things, people with dps meters can discriminate on who is pulling their weight but also develop their own and others’ gameplay]

[just to spell out before : YOU discriminate on the exit to your house, deciding the door is better than window]

Maybe you should look up what discriminate means, it is not a synonym of prejudice. On a related topic I highly recommend looking up Tim Minchin – Prejudice, much funnies.

Good idea, best you start with reading up on conotations and where discriminate stands:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discriminate

http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/discrimination (check out those nice synonyms)

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/183093/is-there-a-term-for-discrimination-without-negative-connotation

The words you might want to use are:

- differentiate or distinction

Your example did not make sense because doors and windows have different uses. A more fitting example would be as follows:

You have a front and rear door to your house. Some people enjoy going out the rear door and walking through their garden to get to their car, others take the front door. The dps meter would now give an exact difference in time spent between using both exits.

Using the front door is slightly (or more) faster, which we can now quatify.

Your neightbor with whom you carpool now starts demanding you always use the front door even though you both always got to work on time.

You are the potential neighbor making life miserable.

There fixed that analogy for you.

Cyninja.2954:

Coulter.2315:

Cyninja.2954:

Coulter.2315:

Zeeran.6027:

I shall peer into my looking glass and predict the steps of what will happen, upon the inclusion of a dps meter:
1) builds get tested
2) HIGHEST damage build(s) identified (with actual 100% reliable data)
3) Discrimination
4) worse off than we are now

I’m curious why you think 4 will happen? Also 3 is not a bad thing, do you discriminate over which exit to your house is best, door or window? If you’re using the door because its quicker, more secure and safer then you’re discriminating over a logical reason.

Experience.

Experience from other MMOs is what most people usually fall back on when comparing changes made.

Also your anoalogy does not even fit the current situation.

No one is discriminating (at least I’m not) against damage meters due to logic or it being useful reasons. People are against it (again, at least I am) due to illogical, discriminatory and unreasonable human character flaws which are found every time people who do not know each other interact.

The game is far from needing this amount of optimization. If you want to felx your kitten, do that in some other game, there are enough MMOs on the market which will allow you to do just that.

xD I was meaning discrimination is not a bad thing.. I then gave an example of why it isn’t a bad thing and how YOU discriminate daily (as does EVERYONE else). I was not sayng “you are discriminating against DPS meters.” Sorry for confusion.

Saying “DPS meters will lead to discrimination!” is like saying “Letting people see will lead to discrimination!” both are true and both situations reveal more about the world than just sorting people into piles (which is what you are focused on not letting happen – even though it has already happened but with guessing instead of data).

[just to spell it out : people who can see can now discriminate based on looks but can also see lots of other things, people with dps meters can discriminate on who is pulling their weight but also develop their own and others’ gameplay]

[just to spell out before : YOU discriminate on the exit to your house, deciding the door is better than window]

Maybe you should look up what discriminate means, it is not a synonym of prejudice. On a related topic I highly recommend looking up Tim Minchin – Prejudice, much funnies.

Good idea, best you start with reading up on conotations and where discriminate stands:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discriminate

http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/discrimination (check out those nice synonyms)

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/183093/is-there-a-term-for-discrimination-without-negative-connotation

The words you might want to use are:

- differentiate or distinction

Your example did not make sense because doors and windows have different uses. A more fitting example would be as follows:

You have a front and rear door to your house. Some people enjoy going out the rear door and walking through their garden to get to their car, others take the front door. The dps meter would now give an exact difference in time spent between using both exits.

Using the front door is slightly (or more) faster, which we can now quatify.

Your neightbor with whom you carpool now starts demanding you always use the front door even though you both always got to work on time.

You are the potential neighbor making life miserable.

There fixed that analogy for you.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/discriminate

Try mine, silly Americans always adding bias to things. Notice for the negative effect that you are using (definition 2) the words “unjust” and prejudiced" are added to the sentence.

The analogy was just a one person analogy to show YOU discriminate and point out ‘discrminate’ is a neutral term. If you’re not getting it by now I cannot help you.

Try another one, do you treat your boss same as your sexual partners, obviously not thats you discriminating and acting accordingly.

Coulter.2315:

Cyninja.2954:

Coulter.2315:

Cyninja.2954:

Coulter.2315:

Zeeran.6027:

I shall peer into my looking glass and predict the steps of what will happen, upon the inclusion of a dps meter:
1) builds get tested
2) HIGHEST damage build(s) identified (with actual 100% reliable data)
3) Discrimination
4) worse off than we are now

I’m curious why you think 4 will happen? Also 3 is not a bad thing, do you discriminate over which exit to your house is best, door or window? If you’re using the door because its quicker, more secure and safer then you’re discriminating over a logical reason.

Experience.

Experience from other MMOs is what most people usually fall back on when comparing changes made.

Also your anoalogy does not even fit the current situation.

No one is discriminating (at least I’m not) against damage meters due to logic or it being useful reasons. People are against it (again, at least I am) due to illogical, discriminatory and unreasonable human character flaws which are found every time people who do not know each other interact.

The game is far from needing this amount of optimization. If you want to felx your kitten, do that in some other game, there are enough MMOs on the market which will allow you to do just that.

xD I was meaning discrimination is not a bad thing.. I then gave an example of why it isn’t a bad thing and how YOU discriminate daily (as does EVERYONE else). I was not sayng “you are discriminating against DPS meters.” Sorry for confusion.

Saying “DPS meters will lead to discrimination!” is like saying “Letting people see will lead to discrimination!” both are true and both situations reveal more about the world than just sorting people into piles (which is what you are focused on not letting happen – even though it has already happened but with guessing instead of data).

[just to spell it out : people who can see can now discriminate based on looks but can also see lots of other things, people with dps meters can discriminate on who is pulling their weight but also develop their own and others’ gameplay]

[just to spell out before : YOU discriminate on the exit to your house, deciding the door is better than window]

Maybe you should look up what discriminate means, it is not a synonym of prejudice. On a related topic I highly recommend looking up Tim Minchin – Prejudice, much funnies.

Good idea, best you start with reading up on conotations and where discriminate stands:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discriminate

http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/discrimination (check out those nice synonyms)

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/183093/is-there-a-term-for-discrimination-without-negative-connotation

The words you might want to use are:

- differentiate or distinction

Your example did not make sense because doors and windows have different uses. A more fitting example would be as follows:

You have a front and rear door to your house. Some people enjoy going out the rear door and walking through their garden to get to their car, others take the front door. The dps meter would now give an exact difference in time spent between using both exits.

Using the front door is slightly (or more) faster, which we can now quatify.

Your neightbor with whom you carpool now starts demanding you always use the front door even though you both always got to work on time.

You are the potential neighbor making life miserable.

There fixed that analogy for you.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/discriminate

Try mine, silly Americans always adding bias to things. Notice for the negative effect that you are using (definition 2) the words “unjust” and prejudiced" are added to the sentence.

The analogy was just a one person analogy to show YOU discriminate and point out ‘discrminate’ is a neutral term. If you’re not getting it by now I cannot help you.

Try another one, do you treat your boss same as your sexual partners, obviously not thats you discriminating and acting accordingly.

Good point, on:

- a public forum
- of a game by an american company
- with a multitude of players of different countries whos native language is not english (matter of fact, I’m no american or british english – not even an english native speaker)
- with a term that gets used vividly by the media in a negative conotation way
- on a topic where the term as such was clearly used with a negativ conotation

you getting what I’m trying to point at brah?

Also your analogy is not making sense because it does not fit logically the situtation. You could have just as easily said: person chooses to use the front door instead of the window and 90% of the readers would have had a better understanding of what you ment.

ps.

Make an unjust or prejudicial distinction in the treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, sex, or age: existing employment policies discriminate against women – http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/discriminate

So your link proves my point as well, thank you.

A personal dps meter where you can only see your own stats is ok imo, but monitoring stats from other people is bad. Look at the toxic behaviours it has generated in games like wow – to such a degree it impacts on how people interact with each other.

Cyninja.2954:

Coulter.2315:

Cyninja.2954:

Coulter.2315:

Cyninja.2954:

Coulter.2315:

Zeeran.6027:

I shall peer into my looking glass and predict the steps of what will happen, upon the inclusion of a dps meter:
1) builds get tested
2) HIGHEST damage build(s) identified (with actual 100% reliable data)
3) Discrimination
4) worse off than we are now

I’m curious why you think 4 will happen? Also 3 is not a bad thing, do you discriminate over which exit to your house is best, door or window? If you’re using the door because its quicker, more secure and safer then you’re discriminating over a logical reason.

Experience.

Experience from other MMOs is what most people usually fall back on when comparing changes made.

Also your anoalogy does not even fit the current situation.

No one is discriminating (at least I’m not) against damage meters due to logic or it being useful reasons. People are against it (again, at least I am) due to illogical, discriminatory and unreasonable human character flaws which are found every time people who do not know each other interact.

The game is far from needing this amount of optimization. If you want to felx your kitten, do that in some other game, there are enough MMOs on the market which will allow you to do just that.

xD I was meaning discrimination is not a bad thing.. I then gave an example of why it isn’t a bad thing and how YOU discriminate daily (as does EVERYONE else). I was not sayng “you are discriminating against DPS meters.” Sorry for confusion.

Saying “DPS meters will lead to discrimination!” is like saying “Letting people see will lead to discrimination!” both are true and both situations reveal more about the world than just sorting people into piles (which is what you are focused on not letting happen – even though it has already happened but with guessing instead of data).

[just to spell it out : people who can see can now discriminate based on looks but can also see lots of other things, people with dps meters can discriminate on who is pulling their weight but also develop their own and others’ gameplay]

[just to spell out before : YOU discriminate on the exit to your house, deciding the door is better than window]

Maybe you should look up what discriminate means, it is not a synonym of prejudice. On a related topic I highly recommend looking up Tim Minchin – Prejudice, much funnies.

Good idea, best you start with reading up on conotations and where discriminate stands:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discriminate

http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/discrimination (check out those nice synonyms)

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/183093/is-there-a-term-for-discrimination-without-negative-connotation

The words you might want to use are:

- differentiate or distinction

Your example did not make sense because doors and windows have different uses. A more fitting example would be as follows:

You have a front and rear door to your house. Some people enjoy going out the rear door and walking through their garden to get to their car, others take the front door. The dps meter would now give an exact difference in time spent between using both exits.

Using the front door is slightly (or more) faster, which we can now quatify.

Your neightbor with whom you carpool now starts demanding you always use the front door even though you both always got to work on time.

You are the potential neighbor making life miserable.

There fixed that analogy for you.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/discriminate

Try mine, silly Americans always adding bias to things. Notice for the negative effect that you are using (definition 2) the words “unjust” and prejudiced" are added to the sentence.

The analogy was just a one person analogy to show YOU discriminate and point out ‘discrminate’ is a neutral term. If you’re not getting it by now I cannot help you.

Try another one, do you treat your boss same as your sexual partners, obviously not thats you discriminating and acting accordingly.

Good point, on:

- a public forum
- of a game by an american company
- with a multitude of players of different countries whos native language is not english (matter of fact, I’m no american or british english – not even an english native speaker)
- with a term that gets used vividly by the media in a negative conotation way
- on a topic where the term as such was clearly used with a negativ conotation

you getting what I’m trying to point at brah?

Also your analogy is not making sense because it does not fit logically the situtation. You could have just as easily said: person chooses to use the front door instead of the window and 90% of the readers would have had a better understanding of what you ment.

ps.

Make an unjust or prejudicial distinction in the treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, sex, or age: existing employment policies discriminate against women – http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/discriminate

So your link proves my point as well, thank you.

Aha but discriminating by DPS is NOT the same as discriminating by a born trait (like sex or race), its discriminating by output (as in discriminating by usefulness – which is just like door vs window).

People can improve their output (even with help from the DPS meter) and so can earn greater favour by DPS meter discrimination.

Discrimination is logical and completely fair when applied to output – exam results for example discriminate based on how well you did (I hope you can see that this kind of discrimination is fair and just). The term is not negative just you keep wanting to act like we’re comparing women to men when actually we’re actually comparing straight As to fails.

Output discrimination does not lead to bad things (its the reason you’re using a computer right now and not excrement to make pretty shapes on a cave wall).

I wonder how many of these opinions are completely based on one bad experience, the bad experiences of others or even the prejudices about those mean elitists raiders who will always kick anyone who isn’t perfect and never forget to call them “newbs”.

Pandabro.8743:

(…)

This is generally how things happen in other games when things “go wrong”:

Leader – “Okay, tonight was a little rough, we need everyone to be at least at 10k DPS by next raid or we’ll have to start replacing people with those that can do it”

—next night—

Leader – “Okay Jonny and Sarah you are both sitting at 5k DPS unfortunately that doesn’t cut it for this type of content, we are going to have to replace you tonight. We can talk after the raid to see if we can get your damage up to where it needs to be”

---

Now lets look at a very real example of what happens in GW2 when things aren’t going right:

Leader – “Guys last attempt we were at 5:45 when the Vale Guardian split. We need to have much better damage if we are going to hit the enrage timer. Make sure you are using the best gear, food and utilities possible and optimizing your rotation.”

4-5 attempts later

Leader – “We are still consistently below the 6 minute mark when the Guardian splits. What’s going on? Why is our DPS not where it should be?”

crickets

No one knows. No one has any idea who’s pulling their weight and who’s not. It’s a complete crap shoot.

There’s a couple things the RL could do at this point:

1. Have everyone link him their gear. This would require some extensive knowledge of almost every profession and what their best build is (Or even viable builds, many professions have multiple raid viable builds). It would require them to start discriminating based on gear. They may end up dropping their most valuable player simply because he has a few less than optimal pieces of gear. It’d also take hours to figure out where the problems are.

2. Continue attempting without really changing anything and hope people magically get better (generally they won’t). If things don’t improve people will stop having fun and stop showing up, usually the first ones to go are the ones who are actually the best players.

Neither of these are good options. It’s unlikely you’ll find the problem with either and it’s unlikely you’ll be able to get past this hurdle either because you simply don’t have the information available to make an informed decision. Damage meter would make this a fairly simple decision. Sure, one maybe two people might get their feelings a little hurt, but you won’t have 10 people frustrated and getting burnt out.

TL;DR – Part of teamwork and cooperation is accountability and without tools like damage meters leaders can only make guesses at who’s doing their job and who’s not.

Couldn’t have said it better myself.

Have seen the “crickets” thing happen so often in this game. You end up pointing out that DPS is pretty low as a whole because you don’t want to hurt any feelings and of course nobody owns up or even knows he is the one.

It might just be the true accountability that some people seem to oppose. People might actually have to start respecting LFG requirements then… I have been asking for a LFG tool that let you set specific requirements which will block some players from joining but you can imagine how people hated that idea.

Henry.5713:

I wonder how many of these opinions are completely based on one bad experience, the bad experiences of others or even the prejudices about those mean elitists raiders who will always kick anyone who isn’t perfect and never forget to call them “newbs”.

Pandabro.8743:

(…)

This is generally how things happen in other games when things “go wrong”:

Leader – “Okay, tonight was a little rough, we need everyone to be at least at 10k DPS by next raid or we’ll have to start replacing people with those that can do it”

—next night—

Leader – “Okay Jonny and Sarah you are both sitting at 5k DPS unfortunately that doesn’t cut it for this type of content, we are going to have to replace you tonight. We can talk after the raid to see if we can get your damage up to where it needs to be”

---

Now lets look at a very real example of what happens in GW2 when things aren’t going right:

Leader – “Guys last attempt we were at 5:45 when the Vale Guardian split. We need to have much better damage if we are going to hit the enrage timer. Make sure you are using the best gear, food and utilities possible and optimizing your rotation.”

4-5 attempts later

Leader – “We are still consistently below the 6 minute mark when the Guardian splits. What’s going on? Why is our DPS not where it should be?”

crickets

No one knows. No one has any idea who’s pulling their weight and who’s not. It’s a complete crap shoot.

There’s a couple things the RL could do at this point:

1. Have everyone link him their gear. This would require some extensive knowledge of almost every profession and what their best build is (Or even viable builds, many professions have multiple raid viable builds). It would require them to start discriminating based on gear. They may end up dropping their most valuable player simply because he has a few less than optimal pieces of gear. It’d also take hours to figure out where the problems are.

2. Continue attempting without really changing anything and hope people magically get better (generally they won’t). If things don’t improve people will stop having fun and stop showing up, usually the first ones to go are the ones who are actually the best players.

Neither of these are good options. It’s unlikely you’ll find the problem with either and it’s unlikely you’ll be able to get past this hurdle either because you simply don’t have the information available to make an informed decision. Damage meter would make this a fairly simple decision. Sure, one maybe two people might get their feelings a little hurt, but you won’t have 10 people frustrated and getting burnt out.

TL;DR – Part of teamwork and cooperation is accountability and without tools like damage meters leaders can only make guesses at who’s doing their job and who’s not.

Couldn’t have said it better myself.

Have seen the “crickets” thing happen so often in this game. You end up pointing out that DPS is pretty low as a whole because you don’t want to hurt any feelings and of course nobody owns up or even knows he is the one.

It might just be the true accountability that some people seem to oppose. People might actually have to start respecting LFG requirements then… I have been asking for a LFG tool that let you set specific requirements which will block some players from joining but you can imagine how people hated that idea.

I seem to be part of your “elitist” group then. Got all the raid content clear (6/18 achieves for armor, all raid achieves done bare 2) and even without that I can see a damage meter as problematic.

If you are any type of semi decent raid leader (extends to guild leaders too) you know who is pulling their weight and who isn’t. This starts by having a general overview of how well founded player understanding of mechanics is which does not take long for someone to figure out if you are on ts/mumble/skype over multiple periods of time. I find it funny that people would bring this up. Either you’ve never actually lead a raid (I have in multiple MMOs starting with DAoC over WoW to Guild Wars 2) or you haven’t been paying attention to you fellow players (granted this was quite difficult with 40 man raids, but still possible since you had sort of a core team).

This doesn’t help random groups though, true. Then again we are talking about raid content which is not supposed to get puged even if it’s easy enough for this to be doable.

If you need a damage meter to see who is pulling their weight or not, you are far less good of a player than you might think. The damage meter just makes it easier, I won’t argue against that, but it certainly is not required.

NikeEU.7690:

In most cases Elementalist does more DPS than condi warrior. So why are people begging for condi warrior to be nerfed and not elementalist? Answer that question and you will understand that DPS meters won’t increase discrimination anymore than there already is.

This here is why we need a dps meter. This guy actually thinks ele’s do more damage than condi warriors in most situations.

Why does he think this? Probably because someone told him so. Less likely is that he watched a single video of an ele doing 31k dps on VG. Has he seen a comparison to a condi warriors dps video? not likely.

Does he realize that ele’s are vastly out dps’d on Gor and Sab by condi eles because of their higher armor? Not likely.

For instance, I get 29k dps on VG (Fresh Air), 20k on gor (Staff) and 19k on Sab (Fresh Air). I run canon’s on Sab so I don’t know what my dps for a full run would be, but I get 19k in phase 1.

On Sab ele is only ok damage wise. Condi classes easily outdamage me, same goes for pretty much every high armored target.

But when most people are using spreadsheets and not real dps meters they get lost on these details and think ele is OP and warrior is ok, whereas the truth is that warriors do very high dps on all targets while ele’s only hit peak output on light armor targets.

Coulter.2315:

Cyninja.2954:

Coulter.2315:

Cyninja.2954:

Coulter.2315:

Cyninja.2954:

Coulter.2315:

Zeeran.6027:

I shall peer into my looking glass and predict the steps of what will happen, upon the inclusion of a dps meter:
1) builds get tested
2) HIGHEST damage build(s) identified (with actual 100% reliable data)
3) Discrimination
4) worse off than we are now

I’m curious why you think 4 will happen? Also 3 is not a bad thing, do you discriminate over which exit to your house is best, door or window? If you’re using the door because its quicker, more secure and safer then you’re discriminating over a logical reason.

Experience.

Experience from other MMOs is what most people usually fall back on when comparing changes made.

Also your anoalogy does not even fit the current situation.

No one is discriminating (at least I’m not) against damage meters due to logic or it being useful reasons. People are against it (again, at least I am) due to illogical, discriminatory and unreasonable human character flaws which are found every time people who do not know each other interact.

The game is far from needing this amount of optimization. If you want to felx your kitten, do that in some other game, there are enough MMOs on the market which will allow you to do just that.

xD I was meaning discrimination is not a bad thing.. I then gave an example of why it isn’t a bad thing and how YOU discriminate daily (as does EVERYONE else). I was not sayng “you are discriminating against DPS meters.” Sorry for confusion.

Saying “DPS meters will lead to discrimination!” is like saying “Letting people see will lead to discrimination!” both are true and both situations reveal more about the world than just sorting people into piles (which is what you are focused on not letting happen – even though it has already happened but with guessing instead of data).

[just to spell it out : people who can see can now discriminate based on looks but can also see lots of other things, people with dps meters can discriminate on who is pulling their weight but also develop their own and others’ gameplay]

[just to spell out before : YOU discriminate on the exit to your house, deciding the door is better than window]

Maybe you should look up what discriminate means, it is not a synonym of prejudice. On a related topic I highly recommend looking up Tim Minchin – Prejudice, much funnies.

Good idea, best you start with reading up on conotations and where discriminate stands:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discriminate

http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/discrimination (check out those nice synonyms)

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/183093/is-there-a-term-for-discrimination-without-negative-connotation

The words you might want to use are:

- differentiate or distinction

Your example did not make sense because doors and windows have different uses. A more fitting example would be as follows:

You have a front and rear door to your house. Some people enjoy going out the rear door and walking through their garden to get to their car, others take the front door. The dps meter would now give an exact difference in time spent between using both exits.

Using the front door is slightly (or more) faster, which we can now quatify.

Your neightbor with whom you carpool now starts demanding you always use the front door even though you both always got to work on time.

You are the potential neighbor making life miserable.

There fixed that analogy for you.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/discriminate

Try mine, silly Americans always adding bias to things. Notice for the negative effect that you are using (definition 2) the words “unjust” and prejudiced" are added to the sentence.

The analogy was just a one person analogy to show YOU discriminate and point out ‘discrminate’ is a neutral term. If you’re not getting it by now I cannot help you.

Try another one, do you treat your boss same as your sexual partners, obviously not thats you discriminating and acting accordingly.

Good point, on:

- a public forum
- of a game by an american company
- with a multitude of players of different countries whos native language is not english (matter of fact, I’m no american or british english – not even an english native speaker)
- with a term that gets used vividly by the media in a negative conotation way
- on a topic where the term as such was clearly used with a negativ conotation

you getting what I’m trying to point at brah?

Also your analogy is not making sense because it does not fit logically the situtation. You could have just as easily said: person chooses to use the front door instead of the window and 90% of the readers would have had a better understanding of what you ment.

ps.

Make an unjust or prejudicial distinction in the treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, sex, or age: existing employment policies discriminate against women – http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/discriminate

So your link proves my point as well, thank you.

Aha but discriminating by DPS is NOT the same as discriminating by a born trait (like sex or race), its discriminating by output (as in discriminating by usefulness – which is just like door vs window).

People can improve their output (even with help from the DPS meter) and so can earn greater favour by DPS meter discrimination.

Discrimination is logical and completely fair when applied to output – exam results for example discriminate based on how well you did (I hope you can see that this kind of discrimination is fair and just). The term is not negative just you keep wanting to act like we’re comparing women to men when actually we’re actually comparing straight As to fails.

Output discrimination does not lead to bad things (its the reason you’re using a computer right now and not excrement to make pretty shapes on a cave wall).

Correct, and this has done abosultely diddly squat in disproving that discriminate has a negative conotation and was used (and mostly gets used) in this negative way, see this entire thread.

Cyninja.2954:

Coulter.2315:

Cyninja.2954:

Coulter.2315:

Cyninja.2954:

Coulter.2315:

Cyninja.2954:

Coulter.2315:

Zeeran.6027:

I shall peer into my looking glass and predict the steps of what will happen, upon the inclusion of a dps meter:
1) builds get tested
2) HIGHEST damage build(s) identified (with actual 100% reliable data)
3) Discrimination
4) worse off than we are now

I’m curious why you think 4 will happen? Also 3 is not a bad thing, do you discriminate over which exit to your house is best, door or window? If you’re using the door because its quicker, more secure and safer then you’re discriminating over a logical reason.

Experience.

Experience from other MMOs is what most people usually fall back on when comparing changes made.

Also your anoalogy does not even fit the current situation.

No one is discriminating (at least I’m not) against damage meters due to logic or it being useful reasons. People are against it (again, at least I am) due to illogical, discriminatory and unreasonable human character flaws which are found every time people who do not know each other interact.

The game is far from needing this amount of optimization. If you want to felx your kitten, do that in some other game, there are enough MMOs on the market which will allow you to do just that.

xD I was meaning discrimination is not a bad thing.. I then gave an example of why it isn’t a bad thing and how YOU discriminate daily (as does EVERYONE else). I was not sayng “you are discriminating against DPS meters.” Sorry for confusion.

Saying “DPS meters will lead to discrimination!” is like saying “Letting people see will lead to discrimination!” both are true and both situations reveal more about the world than just sorting people into piles (which is what you are focused on not letting happen – even though it has already happened but with guessing instead of data).

[just to spell it out : people who can see can now discriminate based on looks but can also see lots of other things, people with dps meters can discriminate on who is pulling their weight but also develop their own and others’ gameplay]

[just to spell out before : YOU discriminate on the exit to your house, deciding the door is better than window]

Maybe you should look up what discriminate means, it is not a synonym of prejudice. On a related topic I highly recommend looking up Tim Minchin – Prejudice, much funnies.

Good idea, best you start with reading up on conotations and where discriminate stands:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discriminate

http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/discrimination (check out those nice synonyms)

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/183093/is-there-a-term-for-discrimination-without-negative-connotation

The words you might want to use are:

- differentiate or distinction

Your example did not make sense because doors and windows have different uses. A more fitting example would be as follows:

You have a front and rear door to your house. Some people enjoy going out the rear door and walking through their garden to get to their car, others take the front door. The dps meter would now give an exact difference in time spent between using both exits.

Using the front door is slightly (or more) faster, which we can now quatify.

Your neightbor with whom you carpool now starts demanding you always use the front door even though you both always got to work on time.

You are the potential neighbor making life miserable.

There fixed that analogy for you.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/discriminate

Try mine, silly Americans always adding bias to things. Notice for the negative effect that you are using (definition 2) the words “unjust” and prejudiced" are added to the sentence.

The analogy was just a one person analogy to show YOU discriminate and point out ‘discrminate’ is a neutral term. If you’re not getting it by now I cannot help you.

Try another one, do you treat your boss same as your sexual partners, obviously not thats you discriminating and acting accordingly.

Good point, on:

- a public forum
- of a game by an american company
- with a multitude of players of different countries whos native language is not english (matter of fact, I’m no american or british english – not even an english native speaker)
- with a term that gets used vividly by the media in a negative conotation way
- on a topic where the term as such was clearly used with a negativ conotation

you getting what I’m trying to point at brah?

Also your analogy is not making sense because it does not fit logically the situtation. You could have just as easily said: person chooses to use the front door instead of the window and 90% of the readers would have had a better understanding of what you ment.

ps.

Make an unjust or prejudicial distinction in the treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, sex, or age: existing employment policies discriminate against women – http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/discriminate

So your link proves my point as well, thank you.

Aha but discriminating by DPS is NOT the same as discriminating by a born trait (like sex or race), its discriminating by output (as in discriminating by usefulness – which is just like door vs window).

People can improve their output (even with help from the DPS meter) and so can earn greater favour by DPS meter discrimination.

Discrimination is logical and completely fair when applied to output – exam results for example discriminate based on how well you did (I hope you can see that this kind of discrimination is fair and just). The term is not negative just you keep wanting to act like we’re comparing women to men when actually we’re actually comparing straight As to fails.

Output discrimination does not lead to bad things (its the reason you’re using a computer right now and not excrement to make pretty shapes on a cave wall).

Correct, and this has done abosultely diddly squat in disproving that discriminate has a negative conotation and was used (and mostly gets used) in this negative way, see this entire thread.

You see now we’ve established people are using it in a biased and stupid way we can start eliminating the worthiness of their posts.

When the dust settles all we’ll have is “DPS meters give you information on which to make decisions” and I shall think it good.

Coulter.2315:

Cyninja.2954:

Coulter.2315:

Cyninja.2954:

Coulter.2315:

Cyninja.2954:

Coulter.2315:

Cyninja.2954:

Coulter.2315:

Zeeran.6027:

I shall peer into my looking glass and predict the steps of what will happen, upon the inclusion of a dps meter:
1) builds get tested
2) HIGHEST damage build(s) identified (with actual 100% reliable data)
3) Discrimination
4) worse off than we are now

I’m curious why you think 4 will happen? Also 3 is not a bad thing, do you discriminate over which exit to your house is best, door or window? If you’re using the door because its quicker, more secure and safer then you’re discriminating over a logical reason.

Experience.

Experience from other MMOs is what most people usually fall back on when comparing changes made.

Also your anoalogy does not even fit the current situation.

No one is discriminating (at least I’m not) against damage meters due to logic or it being useful reasons. People are against it (again, at least I am) due to illogical, discriminatory and unreasonable human character flaws which are found every time people who do not know each other interact.

The game is far from needing this amount of optimization. If you want to felx your kitten, do that in some other game, there are enough MMOs on the market which will allow you to do just that.

xD I was meaning discrimination is not a bad thing.. I then gave an example of why it isn’t a bad thing and how YOU discriminate daily (as does EVERYONE else). I was not sayng “you are discriminating against DPS meters.” Sorry for confusion.

Saying “DPS meters will lead to discrimination!” is like saying “Letting people see will lead to discrimination!” both are true and both situations reveal more about the world than just sorting people into piles (which is what you are focused on not letting happen – even though it has already happened but with guessing instead of data).

[just to spell it out : people who can see can now discriminate based on looks but can also see lots of other things, people with dps meters can discriminate on who is pulling their weight but also develop their own and others’ gameplay]

[just to spell out before : YOU discriminate on the exit to your house, deciding the door is better than window]

Maybe you should look up what discriminate means, it is not a synonym of prejudice. On a related topic I highly recommend looking up Tim Minchin – Prejudice, much funnies.

Good idea, best you start with reading up on conotations and where discriminate stands:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discriminate

http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/discrimination (check out those nice synonyms)

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/183093/is-there-a-term-for-discrimination-without-negative-connotation

The words you might want to use are:

- differentiate or distinction

Your example did not make sense because doors and windows have different uses. A more fitting example would be as follows:

You have a front and rear door to your house. Some people enjoy going out the rear door and walking through their garden to get to their car, others take the front door. The dps meter would now give an exact difference in time spent between using both exits.

Using the front door is slightly (or more) faster, which we can now quatify.

Your neightbor with whom you carpool now starts demanding you always use the front door even though you both always got to work on time.

You are the potential neighbor making life miserable.

There fixed that analogy for you.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/discriminate

Try mine, silly Americans always adding bias to things. Notice for the negative effect that you are using (definition 2) the words “unjust” and prejudiced" are added to the sentence.

The analogy was just a one person analogy to show YOU discriminate and point out ‘discrminate’ is a neutral term. If you’re not getting it by now I cannot help you.

Try another one, do you treat your boss same as your sexual partners, obviously not thats you discriminating and acting accordingly.

Good point, on:

- a public forum
- of a game by an american company
- with a multitude of players of different countries whos native language is not english (matter of fact, I’m no american or british english – not even an english native speaker)
- with a term that gets used vividly by the media in a negative conotation way
- on a topic where the term as such was clearly used with a negativ conotation

you getting what I’m trying to point at brah?

Also your analogy is not making sense because it does not fit logically the situtation. You could have just as easily said: person chooses to use the front door instead of the window and 90% of the readers would have had a better understanding of what you ment.

ps.

Make an unjust or prejudicial distinction in the treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, sex, or age: existing employment policies discriminate against women – http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/discriminate

So your link proves my point as well, thank you.

Aha but discriminating by DPS is NOT the same as discriminating by a born trait (like sex or race), its discriminating by output (as in discriminating by usefulness – which is just like door vs window).

People can improve their output (even with help from the DPS meter) and so can earn greater favour by DPS meter discrimination.

Discrimination is logical and completely fair when applied to output – exam results for example discriminate based on how well you did (I hope you can see that this kind of discrimination is fair and just). The term is not negative just you keep wanting to act like we’re comparing women to men when actually we’re actually comparing straight As to fails.

Output discrimination does not lead to bad things (its the reason you’re using a computer right now and not excrement to make pretty shapes on a cave wall).

Correct, and this has done abosultely diddly squat in disproving that discriminate has a negative conotation and was used (and mostly gets used) in this negative way, see this entire thread.

You see now we’ve established people are using it in a biased and stupid way we can start eliminating the worthiness of their posts.

When the dust settles all we’ll have is “DPS meters give you information on which to make decisions” and I shall think it good.

Except that correcting people’s grammer, spelling and/or vacabulary and use theirof does not change their irrational behavior nor does it solve human nature.

It also does not counter past experiences which might or might not repeat themselves.

Ultimately it solves none of the dilema at hand except maybe creating more clarity in expression (which I find doubtful non-native speakers would even care about).

So I’m not sure what you believe to have proven or solved besides sidetracking this entire discussion with semantics.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

NikeEU.7690:

In most cases Elementalist does more DPS than condi warrior. So why are people begging for condi warrior to be nerfed and not elementalist? Answer that question and you will understand that DPS meters won’t increase discrimination anymore than there already is.

This here is why we need a dps meter. This guy actually thinks ele’s do more damage than condi warriors in most situations.

Why does he think this? Probably because someone told him so. Less likely is that he watched a single video of an ele doing 31k dps on VG. Has he seen a comparison to a condi warriors dps video? not likely.

Does he realize that ele’s are vastly out dps’d on Gor and Sab by condi eles because of their higher armor? Not likely.

For instance, I get 29k dps on VG (Fresh Air), 20k on gor (Staff) and 19k on Sab (Fresh Air). I run canon’s on Sab so I don’t know what my dps for a full run would be, but I get 19k in phase 1.

On Sab ele is only ok damage wise. Condi classes easily outdamage me, same goes for pretty much every high armored target.

But when most people are using spreadsheets and not real dps meters they get lost on these details and think ele is OP and warrior is ok, whereas the truth is that warriors do very high dps on all targets while ele’s only hit peak output on light armor targets.

Nike does the math on his own. Whether or not he’s right on this instance, I can’t say….But he usually is.

Henry.5713:

I wonder how many of these opinions are completely based on one bad experience, the bad experiences of others or even the prejudices about those mean elitists raiders who will always kick anyone who isn’t perfect and never forget to call them “newbs”.

Human minds store information by association. If someone had a bad experience, a number of bad experiences or even knew people who had bad experiences in a game, and meters were involved, then they have an association between meters and bad experience. Someone mentions “damage meter,” and their brain pulls up the whole file, including all associations.

Try it if you don’t believe me. Think about something, it really doesn’t matter what. Then, watch what your mind dredges up to accompany whatever that is. The results of such observation can be interesting.

So, people then take those thoughts and run with them. This often involves rationalizations about why X causes Y. However, while there are often causal relationships between X and Y, sometimes there aren’t. Sometimes X happens to be present when Y happens, and an association is created. Once the rationalization about causality has become part of the chain of association, though, good luck convincing that person that it ain’t necessarily so.

Cyninja.2954:

Coulter.2315:

Cyninja.2954:

Coulter.2315:

Cyninja.2954:

Coulter.2315:

Cyninja.2954:

Coulter.2315:

Cyninja.2954:

Coulter.2315:

Zeeran.6027:

I shall peer into my looking glass and predict the steps of what will happen, upon the inclusion of a dps meter:
1) builds get tested
2) HIGHEST damage build(s) identified (with actual 100% reliable data)
3) Discrimination
4) worse off than we are now

I’m curious why you think 4 will happen? Also 3 is not a bad thing, do you discriminate over which exit to your house is best, door or window? If you’re using the door because its quicker, more secure and safer then you’re discriminating over a logical reason.

Experience.

Experience from other MMOs is what most people usually fall back on when comparing changes made.

Also your anoalogy does not even fit the current situation.

No one is discriminating (at least I’m not) against damage meters due to logic or it being useful reasons. People are against it (again, at least I am) due to illogical, discriminatory and unreasonable human character flaws which are found every time people who do not know each other interact.

The game is far from needing this amount of optimization. If you want to felx your kitten, do that in some other game, there are enough MMOs on the market which will allow you to do just that.

xD I was meaning discrimination is not a bad thing.. I then gave an example of why it isn’t a bad thing and how YOU discriminate daily (as does EVERYONE else). I was not sayng “you are discriminating against DPS meters.” Sorry for confusion.

Saying “DPS meters will lead to discrimination!” is like saying “Letting people see will lead to discrimination!” both are true and both situations reveal more about the world than just sorting people into piles (which is what you are focused on not letting happen – even though it has already happened but with guessing instead of data).

[just to spell it out : people who can see can now discriminate based on looks but can also see lots of other things, people with dps meters can discriminate on who is pulling their weight but also develop their own and others’ gameplay]

[just to spell out before : YOU discriminate on the exit to your house, deciding the door is better than window]

Maybe you should look up what discriminate means, it is not a synonym of prejudice. On a related topic I highly recommend looking up Tim Minchin – Prejudice, much funnies.

Good idea, best you start with reading up on conotations and where discriminate stands:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discriminate

http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/discrimination (check out those nice synonyms)

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/183093/is-there-a-term-for-discrimination-without-negative-connotation

The words you might want to use are:

- differentiate or distinction

Your example did not make sense because doors and windows have different uses. A more fitting example would be as follows:

You have a front and rear door to your house. Some people enjoy going out the rear door and walking through their garden to get to their car, others take the front door. The dps meter would now give an exact difference in time spent between using both exits.

Using the front door is slightly (or more) faster, which we can now quatify.

Your neightbor with whom you carpool now starts demanding you always use the front door even though you both always got to work on time.

You are the potential neighbor making life miserable.

There fixed that analogy for you.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/discriminate

Try mine, silly Americans always adding bias to things. Notice for the negative effect that you are using (definition 2) the words “unjust” and prejudiced" are added to the sentence.

The analogy was just a one person analogy to show YOU discriminate and point out ‘discrminate’ is a neutral term. If you’re not getting it by now I cannot help you.

Try another one, do you treat your boss same as your sexual partners, obviously not thats you discriminating and acting accordingly.

Good point, on:

- a public forum
- of a game by an american company
- with a multitude of players of different countries whos native language is not english (matter of fact, I’m no american or british english – not even an english native speaker)
- with a term that gets used vividly by the media in a negative conotation way
- on a topic where the term as such was clearly used with a negativ conotation

you getting what I’m trying to point at brah?

Also your analogy is not making sense because it does not fit logically the situtation. You could have just as easily said: person chooses to use the front door instead of the window and 90% of the readers would have had a better understanding of what you ment.

ps.

Make an unjust or prejudicial distinction in the treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, sex, or age: existing employment policies discriminate against women – http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/discriminate

So your link proves my point as well, thank you.

Aha but discriminating by DPS is NOT the same as discriminating by a born trait (like sex or race), its discriminating by output (as in discriminating by usefulness – which is just like door vs window).

People can improve their output (even with help from the DPS meter) and so can earn greater favour by DPS meter discrimination.

Discrimination is logical and completely fair when applied to output – exam results for example discriminate based on how well you did (I hope you can see that this kind of discrimination is fair and just). The term is not negative just you keep wanting to act like we’re comparing women to men when actually we’re actually comparing straight As to fails.

Output discrimination does not lead to bad things (its the reason you’re using a computer right now and not excrement to make pretty shapes on a cave wall).

Correct, and this has done abosultely diddly squat in disproving that discriminate has a negative conotation and was used (and mostly gets used) in this negative way, see this entire thread.

You see now we’ve established people are using it in a biased and stupid way we can start eliminating the worthiness of their posts.

When the dust settles all we’ll have is “DPS meters give you information on which to make decisions” and I shall think it good.

Except that correcting people’s grammer, spelling and/or vacabulary and use theirof does not change their irrational behavior nor does it solve human nature.

It also does not counter past experiences which might or might not repeat themselves.

Ultimately it solves none of the dilema at hand except maybe creating more clarity in expression (which I find doubtful non-native speakers would even care about).

So I’m not sure what you believe to have proven or solved besides sidetracking this entire discussion with semantics.

Oh all the good points for DPS meters have been made many times (help builds, give accurate output which could feed into class balance, know where things go wrong personally and as a group, improve your personal play through understanding your skill usage and output) and the antiDPS meter crowd just worry about ‘discrimination’ and haven’t budged from that position.

I thought teaching them the actual definition of discrimination would at least accomplish something, you can learn something new every day. You just can’t seem to argue with these people past a certain point (see big list of pros).

[btw its ‘grammar’ (this could have been a trap but it was irresistable so nice bait if it was, if it wasn’t the delicious irony will keep me happy)]

Coulter.2315:

Cyninja.2954:

Coulter.2315:

Cyninja.2954:

Coulter.2315:

Cyninja.2954:

Coulter.2315:

Cyninja.2954:

Coulter.2315:

Cyninja.2954:

Coulter.2315:

Zeeran.6027:

I shall peer into my looking glass and predict the steps of what will happen, upon the inclusion of a dps meter:
1) builds get tested
2) HIGHEST damage build(s) identified (with actual 100% reliable data)
3) Discrimination
4) worse off than we are now

I’m curious why you think 4 will happen? Also 3 is not a bad thing, do you discriminate over which exit to your house is best, door or window? If you’re using the door because its quicker, more secure and safer then you’re discriminating over a logical reason.

Experience.

Experience from other MMOs is what most people usually fall back on when comparing changes made.

Also your anoalogy does not even fit the current situation.

No one is discriminating (at least I’m not) against damage meters due to logic or it being useful reasons. People are against it (again, at least I am) due to illogical, discriminatory and unreasonable human character flaws which are found every time people who do not know each other interact.

The game is far from needing this amount of optimization. If you want to felx your kitten, do that in some other game, there are enough MMOs on the market which will allow you to do just that.

xD I was meaning discrimination is not a bad thing.. I then gave an example of why it isn’t a bad thing and how YOU discriminate daily (as does EVERYONE else). I was not sayng “you are discriminating against DPS meters.” Sorry for confusion.

Saying “DPS meters will lead to discrimination!” is like saying “Letting people see will lead to discrimination!” both are true and both situations reveal more about the world than just sorting people into piles (which is what you are focused on not letting happen – even though it has already happened but with guessing instead of data).

[just to spell it out : people who can see can now discriminate based on looks but can also see lots of other things, people with dps meters can discriminate on who is pulling their weight but also develop their own and others’ gameplay]

[just to spell out before : YOU discriminate on the exit to your house, deciding the door is better than window]

Maybe you should look up what discriminate means, it is not a synonym of prejudice. On a related topic I highly recommend looking up Tim Minchin – Prejudice, much funnies.

Good idea, best you start with reading up on conotations and where discriminate stands:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discriminate

http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/discrimination (check out those nice synonyms)

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/183093/is-there-a-term-for-discrimination-without-negative-connotation

The words you might want to use are:

- differentiate or distinction

Your example did not make sense because doors and windows have different uses. A more fitting example would be as follows:

You have a front and rear door to your house. Some people enjoy going out the rear door and walking through their garden to get to their car, others take the front door. The dps meter would now give an exact difference in time spent between using both exits.

Using the front door is slightly (or more) faster, which we can now quatify.

Your neightbor with whom you carpool now starts demanding you always use the front door even though you both always got to work on time.

You are the potential neighbor making life miserable.

There fixed that analogy for you.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/discriminate

Try mine, silly Americans always adding bias to things. Notice for the negative effect that you are using (definition 2) the words “unjust” and prejudiced" are added to the sentence.

The analogy was just a one person analogy to show YOU discriminate and point out ‘discrminate’ is a neutral term. If you’re not getting it by now I cannot help you.

Try another one, do you treat your boss same as your sexual partners, obviously not thats you discriminating and acting accordingly.

Good point, on:

- a public forum
- of a game by an american company
- with a multitude of players of different countries whos native language is not english (matter of fact, I’m no american or british english – not even an english native speaker)
- with a term that gets used vividly by the media in a negative conotation way
- on a topic where the term as such was clearly used with a negativ conotation

you getting what I’m trying to point at brah?

Also your analogy is not making sense because it does not fit logically the situtation. You could have just as easily said: person chooses to use the front door instead of the window and 90% of the readers would have had a better understanding of what you ment.

ps.

Make an unjust or prejudicial distinction in the treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, sex, or age: existing employment policies discriminate against women – http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/discriminate

So your link proves my point as well, thank you.

Aha but discriminating by DPS is NOT the same as discriminating by a born trait (like sex or race), its discriminating by output (as in discriminating by usefulness – which is just like door vs window).

People can improve their output (even with help from the DPS meter) and so can earn greater favour by DPS meter discrimination.

Discrimination is logical and completely fair when applied to output – exam results for example discriminate based on how well you did (I hope you can see that this kind of discrimination is fair and just). The term is not negative just you keep wanting to act like we’re comparing women to men when actually we’re actually comparing straight As to fails.

Output discrimination does not lead to bad things (its the reason you’re using a computer right now and not excrement to make pretty shapes on a cave wall).

Correct, and this has done abosultely diddly squat in disproving that discriminate has a negative conotation and was used (and mostly gets used) in this negative way, see this entire thread.

You see now we’ve established people are using it in a biased and stupid way we can start eliminating the worthiness of their posts.

When the dust settles all we’ll have is “DPS meters give you information on which to make decisions” and I shall think it good.

Except that correcting people’s grammer, spelling and/or vacabulary and use theirof does not change their irrational behavior nor does it solve human nature.

It also does not counter past experiences which might or might not repeat themselves.

Ultimately it solves none of the dilema at hand except maybe creating more clarity in expression (which I find doubtful non-native speakers would even care about).

So I’m not sure what you believe to have proven or solved besides sidetracking this entire discussion with semantics.

Oh all the good points for DPS meters have been made many times (help builds, give accurate output which could feed into class balance, know where things go wrong personally and as a group, improve your personal play through understanding your skill usage and output) and the antiDPS meter crowd just worry about ‘discrimination’ and haven’t budged from that position.

I thought teaching them the actual definition of discrimination would at least accomplish something, you can learn something new every day. You just can’t seem to argue with these people past a certain point (see big list of pros).

[btw its ‘grammar’ (this could have been a trap but it was irresistable so nice bait if it was, if it wasn’t the delicious irony will keep me happy)]

The only way you’re gonna make them budge is convince them otherwise on their absolute rule: They don’t like being snubbed and don’t like others being snubbed.
They don’t want anyone, who’s not intentionally trying to sabotage the party, to be kicked, especially not for gear, build, class or play style.
This entire thing is boiling do to, cold logic vs subjective feelings, only this time it’s about individual people’s subjective enjoyment of the game.
If your going to go on the pro-meter side you’re going to have to answer for yourself, why you wouldn’t mind a setting where you yourself wouldn’t be allowed to party with others because you’re seen as lesser. (and for argument’s sake, conforming to the other players wouldn’t be an option, we’re going most stubborn of the stubborn)

Raven.3248:

This will make me wana play again.
Is this an unreasonable request?

Yes this is an unreasonable request. This would be bringing Gw2 to the lowness of WoW players where numbers in a “Perfect” world is everything. Which forces newer players to think in terms of perfect numbers, instead of realistic results. Given that in this game movement and careful monitoring of skills keeps you alive… the DPS meter would be wholely worthless if you -can’t- survive in the first place.

Dual.8953:

If your going to go on the pro-meter side you’re going to have to answer for yourself, why you wouldn’t mind a setting where you yourself wouldn’t be allowed to party with others because you’re seen as lesser.

I’ve played MMOs for over a decade and never been in this position.

Coulter.2315:

Dual.8953:

If your going to go on the pro-meter side you’re going to have to answer for yourself, why you wouldn’t mind a setting where you yourself wouldn’t be allowed to party with others because you’re seen as lesser.

I’ve played MMOs for over a decade and never been in this position.

I said this isn’t a logical position but it carries more weight because it takes place in a social setting.

Dual.8953:

If your going to go on the pro-meter side you’re going to have to answer for yourself, why you wouldn’t mind a setting where you yourself wouldn’t be allowed to party with others because you’re seen as lesser. (and for argument’s sake, conforming to the other players wouldn’t be an option, we’re going most stubborn of the stubborn)

If there were a setting in which the goal was not to seriously clear the content…but instead to experiment/role play/goof off….then yes…please exclude me. I wouldn’t mind being seen as lesser, if those are the valued qualities that group is looking for. I would have no desire to conform to those values anyway.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

NikeEU.7690:

In most cases Elementalist does more DPS than condi warrior. So why are people begging for condi warrior to be nerfed and not elementalist? Answer that question and you will understand that DPS meters won’t increase discrimination anymore than there already is.

This here is why we need a dps meter. This guy actually thinks ele’s do more damage than condi warriors in most situations.

I don’t think, I know. I use a the JacXN DPS meter.

Why does he think this? Probably because someone told him so. Less likely is that he watched a single video of an ele doing 31k dps on VG. Has he seen a comparison to a condi warriors dps video? not likely.

I think it because I know what well played tempests do and what well played condi warriors do. I don’t need to watch Particlar’s video to tell me the DPS of a build we had already been using in raids for weeks.

Does he realize that ele’s are vastly out dps’d on Gor and Sab by condi eles because of their higher armor? Not likely.

Gorseval and Sabetha have 2600 armor. that’s considered normal.

For instance, I get 29k dps on VG (Fresh Air), 20k on gor (Staff) and 19k on Sab (Fresh Air). I run canon’s on Sab so I don’t know what my dps for a full run would be, but I get 19k in phase 1.

On Sab ele is only ok damage wise. Condi classes easily outdamage me, same goes for pretty much every high armored target.

But when most people are using spreadsheets and not real dps meters they get lost on these details and think ele is OP and warrior is ok, whereas the truth is that warriors do very high dps on all targets while ele’s only hit peak output on light armor targets.

I use a DPS meter as does everyone in my guild. I’m very confident when I tell you that Tempest out DPS’ed condi warrior against every raid boss.

To answer my own question from earlier, the reason condi warrior is going to get nerfed is because it requires a rather skilled Tempest to hit 24k DPS, but a mouth breather can play condi warrior and get 22k DPS. When you’re get 90% effectiveness from 10% effort it’s not balanced. Let alone starting a discussion about the utility and buffing a condi warrior does in addition to close to Tempest DPS.

Pandabro.8743:

You do realize that only those who really care about having a DPS meter are the meta try-hards and the min/maxers right?

This is SO not true.

Playing with my dad the other day (Who’s 65 and terrible at video games but likes MMORPG’s) he said “I wish this game had some way of telling how well you are doing”.

Your dad should use the combat log, imo.

NikeEU.7690:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

NikeEU.7690:

In most cases Elementalist does more DPS than condi warrior. So why are people begging for condi warrior to be nerfed and not elementalist? Answer that question and you will understand that DPS meters won’t increase discrimination anymore than there already is.

This here is why we need a dps meter. This guy actually thinks ele’s do more damage than condi warriors in most situations.

I don’t think, I know. I use a the JacXN DPS meter.

Why does he think this? Probably because someone told him so. Less likely is that he watched a single video of an ele doing 31k dps on VG. Has he seen a comparison to a condi warriors dps video? not likely.

I think it because I know what well played tempests do and what well played condi warriors do. I don’t need to watch Particlar’s video to tell me the DPS of a build we had already been using in raids for weeks.

Does he realize that ele’s are vastly out dps’d on Gor and Sab by condi eles because of their higher armor? Not likely.

Gorseval and Sabetha have 2600 armor. that’s considered normal.

For instance, I get 29k dps on VG (Fresh Air), 20k on gor (Staff) and 19k on Sab (Fresh Air). I run canon’s on Sab so I don’t know what my dps for a full run would be, but I get 19k in phase 1.

On Sab ele is only ok damage wise. Condi classes easily outdamage me, same goes for pretty much every high armored target.

But when most people are using spreadsheets and not real dps meters they get lost on these details and think ele is OP and warrior is ok, whereas the truth is that warriors do very high dps on all targets while ele’s only hit peak output on light armor targets.

I use a DPS meter as does everyone in my guild. I’m very confident when I tell you that Tempest out DPS’ed condi warrior against every raid boss.

To answer my own question from earlier, the reason condi warrior is going to get nerfed is because it requires a rather skilled Tempest to hit 24k DPS, but a mouth breather can play condi warrior and get 22k DPS. When you’re get 90% effectiveness from 10% effort it’s not balanced. Let alone starting a discussion about the utility and buffing a condi warrior does in addition to close to Tempest DPS.

Even if this is true, the changes coming today will shake it up. It also requires a very specific set of buffs to obtain. Altering those buffs even a small amount can shift the DPS significantly. Without a chrono in the tempests group I doubt they can top even 20k dps.

Saying a tempest does 24k dps is only true of they are in a group with a chrono, a warrior, a revenant, and a druid most likely. I don’t think classes should be balanced around a single very specific group composition.

I’ll be interested to see how my raid dps is tonight compared to other peoples with the changes coming today.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Even if this is true, the changes coming today will shake it up. It also requires a very specific set of buffs to obtain. Altering those buffs even a small amount can shift the DPS significantly. Without a chrono in the tempests group I doubt they can top even 20k dps.

Saying a tempest does 24k dps is only true of they are in a group with a chrono, a warrior, a revenant, and a druid most likely. I don’t think classes should be balanced around a single very specific group composition.

I’ll be interested to see how my raid dps is tonight compared to other peoples with the changes coming today.

Wow that’s kind of pathetics. You just got schooled on dps so now you change the discussion on oh ya but it may or may not be the case after the big patch that change so many things. kitten , what a come back.

Jesus, of course Tempest don’t have the same dps without a Herald, Chronomancer, Druids and PS Warrior. Just like a Burnzerker don’t have the same dps without a Herald, chronomancer, Druids and PS Warrior. What’s your point?? The Tempest can work without that specific composition, he just do more dps in that composition, just like any freaking other build.

Now if your points are that tempest might be affected more by the alacrity nerf and that Warrior is better than tempest in a bad group or in solo situation, then ya you probably have a point. It deserve discussion and testing for sure.

But that’s not what you said and it wasn’t at all the point when you laught at Nike for saying that Tempest had better dps than Burnzerker.

pdavis.8031:

You do realize that only those who really care about having a DPS meter are the meta try-hards and the min/maxers right? People get enough flak for not running the almighty zerker gear. What we DON’T need is a sure fire way to come down on other players for not playing a way that someone thinks they should play.
Besides, nearly every bit of content, with perhaps the exception of raids, can be completed in the worse possible build setup ever.
No. An in-game DPS meter will only serve to stoke the ego’s of those who live by such things, and do nothing to promote cooperation, teamwork, or build diversity.

Not entirely. If your group lacks dps obviously everybody will blame it on the players who doesn’t wear full zerk.

However if we actually get a DPS meter and you see that a full zerk ‘prof A’ deals less damage than a non-full zerk ‘prof A’ people might actually see that the “bad players” is the reason.

Also with a DPS meter you should be able to improve yourself MUCH better. I mean yes there will be some groups who would insta kick you for low dps. But groups who have dps problems (not because of one palyer but the entire group) would have a way to improve.

“Maybe this skill or trait deals more damage? I try it out.”
“Hey other ‘prof A’ how do you deal so much damage? What skills and traits do you use?”

DPS meter should never be added. When everyone is aware of how much DPS they’re doing it becomes a competition to only get the highest DPS and not do the content like you normally would. In a raid if your teammate would go down, you won’t react as fast, and honestly most players won’t bother ressing like they normally would. That’s because they would want to always top the DPS chart.

Dommmmmmmmmm.6984:

DPS meter should never be added. When everyone is aware of how much DPS they’re doing it becomes a competition to only get the highest DPS and not do the content like you normally would. In a raid if your teammate would go down, you won’t react as fast, and honestly most players won’t bother ressing like they normally would. That’s because they would want to always top the DPS chart.

Having a personal dps meter only for yourself, shouldn’t be all that bad tbh. As it is only for preference and min maxing your build. Plus anyone who looks at the dps meter instead of focusing on the success of the raid, shouldn’t be raiding.

Dommmmmmmmmm.6984:

DPS meter should never be added. When everyone is aware of how much DPS they’re doing it becomes a competition to only get the highest DPS and not do the content like you normally would. In a raid if your teammate would go down, you won’t react as fast, and honestly most players won’t bother ressing like they normally would. That’s because they would want to always top the DPS chart.

The vast majority of people here are talking about personnal dps meter, not dps meter that everybody can see.

Thaddeus.4891:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Even if this is true, the changes coming today will shake it up. It also requires a very specific set of buffs to obtain. Altering those buffs even a small amount can shift the DPS significantly. Without a chrono in the tempests group I doubt they can top even 20k dps.

Saying a tempest does 24k dps is only true of they are in a group with a chrono, a warrior, a revenant, and a druid most likely. I don’t think classes should be balanced around a single very specific group composition.

I’ll be interested to see how my raid dps is tonight compared to other peoples with the changes coming today.

Wow that’s kind of pathetics. You just got schooled on dps so now you change the discussion on oh ya but it may or may not be the case after the big patch that change so many things. kitten , what a come back.

Jesus, of course Tempest don’t have the same dps without a Herald, Chronomancer, Druids and PS Warrior. Just like a Burnzerker don’t have the same dps without a Herald, chronomancer, Druids and PS Warrior. What’s your point?? The Tempest can work without that specific composition, he just do more dps in that composition, just like any freaking other build.

Now if your points are that tempest might be affected more by the alacrity nerf and that Warrior is better than tempest in a bad group or in solo situation, then ya you probably have a point. It deserve discussion and testing for sure.

But that’s not what you said and it wasn’t at all the point when you laught at Nike for saying that Tempest had better dps than Burnzerker.

That was exactly the point I was trying to make, sorry if that wasn’t clear. Nike’s dps is only for a very very very specific set of circumstances. It might be useful for his raid party, but it isn’t indicative of the overall game and average player.

I would say in 99% of circumstances a burn zerker does more dps than a tempest (pre-patch)

If there was an ingame dps meter this would be readily apparent. Instead people like Nike who have the time, resources and highly dedicated team post these things which are entirely irrelevant for the average player, and since they don’t have an easy to use DPS meter they just copy the builds and apply them in the wrong way leading to a lot of frustration.

I think it would be most useful to have a rough idea of everyones DPS with only 25 might/fury and no other buffs. This would apply a good standard to compare dps since it effects everyone about equally.

Anyway, based on my raids last night it looks like burn zerker is down about 30% dps on gor, though we just swapped one out and had no trouble with dps. Fresh air is a little better, though we had 3 pugs with us last night so our buffs were severely lacking and I couldn’t compare to my pre-patch numbers.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I think it would be most useful to have a rough idea of everyones DPS with only 25 might/fury and no other buffs. This would apply a good standard to compare dps since it effects everyone about equally.

Couldn’t care less about 25might and fury. Someone we can’t have more than that as buff won’t care about a dps meter or meta anyway.

Just provide the number yourself if you want. The dps meter is JaxnX. It doesn’t go against the ToS so you won’t get banned. In the mean time, Nike talked about the dps where from my point of view matter. In a raid party with most buff. Outside of that, I couldn’t care less about the dps of my group.