Guild Wars 2

yay forum bug, go away

Lendruil.9061:

At least perma quickness should be a given in every serious raid group. Also cripple is basically permanent on the boss. The only thing that you maybe dont have always, depending of your squadcomposition, are the ranger buffs.

Ya of course. I was just pointing out that 23K isn’t abnormal if you talk about theorical max because at the beginning of HoT we used to talk about DH doing around 16-17k theorical dps without counting a Chronomancer and Druid in the equation. Now that they are more popular it’s normal that the DH dps increase. It’s not because the DH is better, but only because now we count 2 additionals buffer.

Ah sorry guys I still don’t get it why is it so important for you to cross some DPS line. In my opinion, any damage that is above 20K per second is so freaking high it doesn’t really matter if someone can dish out 3K more (or less).

We all know it, but people just like to push things to the limits.

Thaddeus.4891:

Lendruil.9061:

At least perma quickness should be a given in every serious raid group. Also cripple is basically permanent on the boss. The only thing that you maybe dont have always, depending of your squadcomposition, are the ranger buffs.

Ya of course. I was just pointing out that 23K isn’t abnormal if you talk about theorical max because at the beginning of HoT we used to talk about DH doing around 16-17k theorical dps without counting a Chronomancer and Druid in the equation. Now that they are more popular it’s normal that the DH dps increase. It’s not because the DH is better, but only because now we count 2 additionals buffer.

That’s kinda really what it boils down to when it comes to picking the raid roster though, is it not? Sure, in a vacuum setting a class might excel over other, but it’s in a group setting things matter the most.

Despite the “new” findings regarding DH DPS, I still don’t see it’s value (/PersonalOpinion). As in, I don’t see the unique contribution that a DH brings to the team. Sure, something like Rev got nerfed, but they’re still bringing perma fury, high might uptime, 50% additional boon duration, and Assassin’s Presence. They also have a quasi-invulnerability with they Consume Facet of Light when it comes to soaking a failed green circle or standing in a lit up pie piece.

Again, I’m not stating that DH is a terrible choice, it’s just that other classes are able to wear more hats in this first release of the raids; the many defensive tools that a DH offers aren’t as needed in the first wing. Are they nice to have? Sure. Can you build a team around it? Of course.

Mortifer.2946:

Ah sorry guys I still don’t get it why is it so important for you to cross some DPS line. In my opinion, any damage that is above 20K per second is so freaking high it doesn’t really matter if someone can dish out 3K more (or less).

We all know it, but people just like to push things to the limits.

Even assuming a generous 6 minute encounter something are “meaningless” as 3k on you damage rate means you’re contributing/depriving your team of 1.08M points worth of damage. Encounter goes on for 7 mins? That’s 1.26M points.

In that case I gotta ask myself, what’s more worthwhile? A class who can push out 23-25k worth of DPS with little utility to the team or a class maybe with 20-21k worth of DPS but who offers better utility/buffs to the team to compensate for its lack of personal damage?

I think what is worth the most is to have fun and not to die. …with all respect

Mortifer.2946:

Ah sorry guys I still don’t get it why is it so important for you to cross some DPS line. In my opinion, any damage that is above 20K per second is so freaking high it doesn’t really matter if someone can dish out 3K more (or less).

We all know it, but people just like to push things to the limits.

Well it matter because we are not sure what is the situation to reach 23K dps. Is is the theorical max, the in-game peak or the average dps of a fight. For exemple, Reaper have a in-game peak of about 25K and an average of 19k for Gorseval. What is the situation for a DH? Is it 23K theorical max, 21-22k in-game peak and an average of 16K for Gorseval? That change the situation a lot don’t you think? We need to compare orange with orange. Because if the average difference at gorseval is 3K it’s big.

@savacli

savacli.8172:

Despite the “new” findings regarding DH DPS, I still don’t see it’s value (/PersonalOpinion). As in, I don’t see the unique contribution that a DH brings to the team.

I’m still not sure about that these are new findings. I find that these number are pretty much in line with the number we used to see at the beginning of HoT if you add a Druid and Chronomancer buffer and that’s it.

I still want to compare orange to orange and I still have a hard time beliving that the Guardian outdps a Reaper or a Engineer. If 23K is the max in-game then Reaper can go higher than that if there is 2 Reaper. And Engineer, it probably depend on the skill of the engineer.

Mortifer.2946:

I think what is worth the most is to have fun and not to die. …with all respect

If that’s your stance on the subject after all the discussion that’s taken place on this thread I’d like to bring you back full circle to your opening question:

Mortifer.2946:

If I commit to it and reforge my armor/weapons and buy those 2 expesnive sigils and 6 runes, do you think a general PUG group would let me in with them for the whole run?

To answer that question I would bring up your point of “is it fun” and will it help you “not to die”. Ultimately, if your audience is the general PUG you’re going to be running into a lot of frustration since puglife is a lot of copypasta; you’re at the mercy of what they want. Granted, I’ve been in my share of smooth runs (both organized and pug) where there was a DH on the team. Would I personally slot in a DH in a team I was composing, or would I present myself as a DH to a potential PUG? No, not at all. Why? I don’t feel they contribute anything fantastic to the team. Don’t get me wrong, my second created character was a Guard (since Nov 2012), and I have more hours on that toon than I’m willing to admit. I fully enjoy using that toon in open world where I can make use of the majority of his skillset and unique attributes. Though, in a raid setting there’s not a whole lot I can offer.

Thaddeus.4891:

I’m still not sure about that these are new findings. I find that these number are pretty much in line with the number we used to see at the beginning of HoT if you add a Druid and Chronomancer buffer and that’s it.

I still want to compare orange to orange and I still have a hard time beliving that the Guardian outdps a Reaper or a Engineer. If 23K is the max in-game then Reaper can go higher than that if there is 2 Reaper. And Engineer, it probably depend on the skill of the engineer.

Hence the vacuum vs group comment I made. Everything looks great on paper, though I’m still looking at the numbers with a raised brow until I see live encounters.

And there we are, back in the conclusion that only omni players playing multiple toons can enjoy the fun in the long run. Single toon players are in the mercy of a current state of the game.

Mortifer.2946:

And there we are, back in the conclusion that only omni players playing multiple toons can enjoy the fun in the long run. Single toon players are in the mercy of a current state of the game.

/headdesk

If you have 1 toon total it would be unrealistic that it would be optimal to use for 100% of the content of the game. GW2 has at least made it to where toons are versatile enough to fill multiple roles, but that does not mean each toon will excel at every role. I’d imagine an uproar if I tried to present myself as the team Healer, but I was playing on a thief.

The point that many many many of us have tried to make is that no one is stopping you from having fun in the game with your 1 toon. Are Raids the 1 thing that Guards do not excel at? Currently, that would be a correct statement. So if your fun in the game is so dependent on using your 1 toon for this 1 content in the game with pugs you will find your fun crushed. Wait for Wing 2 or 3. Maybe in those instances Guards will be more worthwhile to use in a PUG situation. So right now you can accept that Guards are less than desired on a random team and instead go play content where Guards excel more at, or you can join/make your own static team where they compose a team that fills in your toon.

Why did I make the personal choice to spend so many hours and in-game resources to gear multiple toons? Because just like irl I enjoy being able to fill multiple roles and wear multiple hats. Versatility makes you more of a valuable asset to a team. Honestly, raids are still at the stage where the majority of the player base is more concerned with just being able to clear the content rather than goofing off. Hence, players are rather picky in their team selection versus the open arms you get in Fractals and Dungeons.

Thaddeus.4891:

Ok I did some math on the Guardian Hammer and here my result.

You can reach up to 23k, even near 24K with this build. BUT and it’s a big but. You need everything to reach that point.

You need ALL of your dps modifier to be up all the time. This include Seaweed Salad, cripple on target, the taget always on your symbol, max F1 teather, Scholar, etc. Not too bad, probably won’t happen in reality.

You also need all max buff. This include Grace of Land, Perma Quickness, Alacrity (affect only the trap, but still), Frost Spirit, Sun Spirit, Assassin’s Presence, Spotter, EA, etc. So basically, it’s true only if you are in 1 party.

PS Warrior, Druids, Chronomancer, Herald and DH.

If for exemple, you drop the Druid only and everything else is maxed, then your dps drop to 19k. If you remove the Chronomancer then you drop to about 15K, which was pretty much what we used to assign to the DH Hammer before since we usually didn’t took into consideration a Chronomancer and Druids into the party.

So far I have a really hard time to get onboard with DH is the 3rd best dps of the game. What about the Engineer, which could reach about 20K without chrono or grace of the land pre HoT? How much dps would he reach with both of those thing, even with a hard to achieve rotation? How about Reaper? Here in that video he reached 25k at about 1min16sec with all buffs.

I’m can see Guardian having a better dps than Ranger, Chronomancer and Warrior (but I would be curious to see the actual dps of the Burnzerker or a DPS Warrior). I can also understand the Guardian having a better dps than Herald, which as far as I know does around 21k dps right now. But that place Guardian 5th behind engineer, thief, tempest and Reaper, not 3rd.

I agree that it’s not likely to always be in that ideal state of all necessary buffs/boons/etc., but that’s pretty much the same situation for any other class. Compared to other professions, such as engi, it’s a lot easier to keep up ideal circumstances since it’s mostly autoattacking.

The E.G. raid team has a resident dragonhunter in almost every Gorseval no updraft videos post patch. I’m not sure they provided the pov of the dragonhunter but I’m pretty positive with the experience i have with them. In fact, the well timed aegis for the group of five during the slam attack does benefit the team dps in that fight.

Besides, my regular group always has a dragonhunter tank for vale guardian and he is amazing. He could sustain very very well independent from the healer who is already busy with keeping up the sustain of the green group. I have seen both chronotank and tempest tank struggle without external healing/protection/etc and their damage rotation suffers. Not with the dragonhunter. I’m not gonna hype it because I haven’t played dragonhunter myself but my experience with good ones proves that they have never impeded the group dps like the conventional perception. Their ease of play and high dps potential outclassed the current Revenant and should be recognized accordingly.

*Edit a few auto correct.

Ehh imo DH > herald. 50% boon duration is unnecessary to keep buffs up, druid can provide fury combined with guardian and chrono boon copying and assassin’s presence is such a minor boost that DHs personal dps makes up for it. All these variables of standing still, cripple, quickness, druid, etc etc is very easily achieved at sabetha, no-draft gors and the first 2 phazes of VG.

For the fact that some people kinda misunderstand the reason why we put guardian to “meta”.
It is of course not the best thing you would take for raids. If you want really fast kills, stack eles.
But, if you want to bring a guardian for raids, you should bring this one. It offers the best support of all offensive guardian builds while doing pretty good damage.

In theory condi reaper+engi might outdps the guardian, but dont forget that current raid bosses have invuln phases. Hammer guard doesn’t have to restack his conditions. Another thing is, you cant really mess up your “rotation”. It is super simple and for that, your DPS should be pretty consistent while some condi builds could have variations for the fact, that you can mess up your rotation, getting interrupted or whatever.

So yeah, hammer guard is prolly the easiest high dps build which offers quite some support as well. And yes, thief does more dps while just auto attacking but doesn’t bring anything else to the party.

Thorwyn.8469:

For the fact that some people kinda misunderstand the reason why we put guardian to “meta”.
It is of course not the best thing you would take for raids. If you want really fast kills, stack eles.
But, if you want to bring a guardian for raids, you should bring this one. It offers the best support of all offensive guardian builds while doing pretty good damage.

In theory condi reaper+engi might outdps the guardian, but dont forget that current raid bosses have invuln phases. Hammer guard doesn’t have to restack his conditions. Another thing is, you cant really mess up your “rotation”. It is super simple and for that, your DPS should be pretty consistent while some condi builds could have variations for the fact, that you can mess up your rotation, getting interrupted or whatever.

So yeah, hammer guard is prolly the easiest high dps build which offers quite some support as well. And yes, thief does more dps while just auto attacking but doesn’t bring anything else to the party.

See, I’m good with that. But my problem was with that ‘’Another thing is, at the current state of the game, this build “only” gets out DPS’d by Eles and Thiefs.’’

That sentence is saying that Ele and Thief have the highest dps, then it’s guardian, then it’s engineer and reaper. That’s very different than saying that Guardian have the 5th best dps, but that in-game the guardian have an easier time than Reaper and Engineer to reach their dps. Reaper need a second reaper and to not lose horrors, while engineer have a complex rotation and that both suffer from invulnerability phase on boss, which force you to re stack your conditions.

cranos.5913:

Ehh imo DH > herald. 50% boon duration is unnecessary to keep buffs up, druid can provide fury combined with guardian and chrono boon copying and assassin’s presence is such a minor boost that DHs personal dps makes up for it. All these variables of standing still, cripple, quickness, druid, etc etc is very easily achieved at sabetha, no-draft gors and the first 2 phazes of VG.

That 50% boon duration is HUUUUGE for chronomancers and it plays a large role on how much quickness your group has.

Dahkeus.8243:

cranos.5913:

Ehh imo DH > herald. 50% boon duration is unnecessary to keep buffs up, druid can provide fury combined with guardian and chrono boon copying and assassin’s presence is such a minor boost that DHs personal dps makes up for it. All these variables of standing still, cripple, quickness, druid, etc etc is very easily achieved at sabetha, no-draft gors and the first 2 phazes of VG.

That 50% boon duration is HUUUUGE for chronomancers and it plays a large role on how much quickness your group has.

Only it’s not. When we tested it this sunday just adding FMW meant the chronos could keep up perma quickness with just the 30% boon duration coming from food. So no, the only thing the 50% does is make sure they can afk more.

cranos.5913:

Dahkeus.8243:

cranos.5913:

Ehh imo DH > herald. 50% boon duration is unnecessary to keep buffs up, druid can provide fury combined with guardian and chrono boon copying and assassin’s presence is such a minor boost that DHs personal dps makes up for it. All these variables of standing still, cripple, quickness, druid, etc etc is very easily achieved at sabetha, no-draft gors and the first 2 phazes of VG.

That 50% boon duration is HUUUUGE for chronomancers and it plays a large role on how much quickness your group has.

Only it’s not. When we tested it this sunday just adding FMW meant the chronos could keep up perma quickness with just the 30% boon duration coming from food. So no, the only thing the 50% does is make sure they can afk more.

Chronos? Well, yea, if you’re running 2, that wouldn’t surprise me.

Well if you have the Sigil of Concentration, there is very little reason to bring more than one Herald. That said, Herald make it so easier to keep perma fury and allow PS warrior to bring dps food. Their CC is also so good.

Dahkeus.8243:

cranos.5913:

Dahkeus.8243:

cranos.5913:

Ehh imo DH > herald. 50% boon duration is unnecessary to keep buffs up, druid can provide fury combined with guardian and chrono boon copying and assassin’s presence is such a minor boost that DHs personal dps makes up for it. All these variables of standing still, cripple, quickness, druid, etc etc is very easily achieved at sabetha, no-draft gors and the first 2 phazes of VG.

That 50% boon duration is HUUUUGE for chronomancers and it plays a large role on how much quickness your group has.

Only it’s not. When we tested it this sunday just adding FMW meant the chronos could keep up perma quickness with just the 30% boon duration coming from food. So no, the only thing the 50% does is make sure they can afk more.

Chronos? Well, yea, if you’re running 2, that wouldn’t surprise me.

Since boon sharing is now locked per sub group and you can’t swap around anymore what does it matter?

Thaddeus.4891:

Well if you have the Sigil of Concentration, there is very little reason to bring more than one Herald. That said, Herald make it so easier to keep perma fury and allow PS warrior to bring dps food. Their CC is also so good.

Perma fury rly isn’t that much of an issue tho. I will agree on the CC. But I think we established that rev is taken for ez mode rather than optimisation. In any case, DH isn’t that bad a choice between classes and shouldn’t have gotten the leper stamp like necro had pre-HoT.

cranos.5913:

Dahkeus.8243:

cranos.5913:

Ehh imo DH > herald. 50% boon duration is unnecessary to keep buffs up, druid can provide fury combined with guardian and chrono boon copying and assassin’s presence is such a minor boost that DHs personal dps makes up for it. All these variables of standing still, cripple, quickness, druid, etc etc is very easily achieved at sabetha, no-draft gors and the first 2 phazes of VG.

That 50% boon duration is HUUUUGE for chronomancers and it plays a large role on how much quickness your group has.

Only it’s not. When we tested it this sunday just adding FMW meant the chronos could keep up perma quickness with just the 30% boon duration coming from food. So no, the only thing the 50% does is make sure they can afk more.

That makes really CLOOOOSE though.

And remember that if people move from your wells and timewarp, its game. That is why Herald F2 is so important on fights where you have to move around.

Not everyone is pro at doing no updraft gorseval.

You are talking pure theorycraft there but in real practice you want that F2 to have perma quickness

Hunter.4783:

cranos.5913:

Dahkeus.8243:

cranos.5913:

Ehh imo DH > herald. 50% boon duration is unnecessary to keep buffs up, druid can provide fury combined with guardian and chrono boon copying and assassin’s presence is such a minor boost that DHs personal dps makes up for it. All these variables of standing still, cripple, quickness, druid, etc etc is very easily achieved at sabetha, no-draft gors and the first 2 phazes of VG.

That 50% boon duration is HUUUUGE for chronomancers and it plays a large role on how much quickness your group has.

Only it’s not. When we tested it this sunday just adding FMW meant the chronos could keep up perma quickness with just the 30% boon duration coming from food. So no, the only thing the 50% does is make sure they can afk more.

That makes really CLOOOOSE though.

And remember that if people move from your wells and timewarp, its game. That is why Herald F2 is so important on fights where you have to move around.

Not everyone is pro at doing no updraft gorseval.

You are talking pure theorycraft there but in real practice you want that F2 to have perma quickness

Well then your point still only stands for gorseval as sabetha never moves and VG only in the last phaze, and yes, this is “in real practise”.

cranos.5913:

Perma fury rly isn’t that much of an issue tho. I will agree on the CC. But I think we established that rev is taken for ez mode rather than optimisation. In any case, DH isn’t that bad a choice between classes and shouldn’t have gotten the leper stamp like necro had pre-HoT.

Well. Perma fury isn’t that easy tbh. Tempest doesn’t have any blast to give fury, without Facet of Nature Guardian can only give 22% uptime, Thief only 33% uptime, Druid can reach near perma fury but you usually have just one.

I’m not saying it’s hard to do, but you need to think about your composition if you want perma fury without a Herald.

Thaddeus.4891:

cranos.5913:

Perma fury rly isn’t that much of an issue tho. I will agree on the CC. But I think we established that rev is taken for ez mode rather than optimisation. In any case, DH isn’t that bad a choice between classes and shouldn’t have gotten the leper stamp like necro had pre-HoT.

Well. Perma fury isn’t that easy tbh. Tempest doesn’t have any blast to give fury, without Facet of Nature Guardian can only give 22% uptime, Thief only 33% uptime, Druid can reach near perma fury but you usually have just one.

I’m not saying it’s hard to do, but you need to think about your composition if you want perma fury without a Herald.

Could go double druid. Could go 1 rev 1 druid 1 DH. Could go w/e you want tbh. I’m not here to tell ppl what to run in their own groups, all I’m saying it’s perfectly possible to do. I’m not a theorycrafter, I honestly don’t know what the actual meta is, all I can say is our runs have improved time-wise by swapping out the revs despite of the nerfs, so DH really can’t be as awful as ppl like to depict them.

I do agree that the nerfs pretty much discourage stacking revs…now you stack DDs instead…the irony

Besides that, now its a perfectly good time to run a DH instead of 2 heralds.

Our chrono group usually looks something like Herald, DH, Chrono, PS war, x.

With X being whatever is available.

1-2 heralds are probably optimal right now however with 1 being a near must.

Are heralds more important to a raid team than DH? For sure, just like druids and chronos are.

Take home message is: Do you need to stack heralds and kick DHs like before? No!

Hunter.4783:

1-2 heralds are probably optimal right now however with 1 being a near must.

Are heralds more important to a raid team than DH? For sure, just like druids and chronos are.

This is just not true though. Revs aren’t a must at all and “optimal” is most likely stacking eles again.

cranos.5913:

This is just not true though. Revs aren’t a must at all and “optimal” is most likely stacking eles again.

So what would be the ideal composition now then?

1) PS Warrior, Chronomancer, Druid Buffer, Tempest/Thief, Tempest/Thief
2) PS Warrior, Chronomancer, Druid Buffer, Tempest/Thief, Tempest/Thief

With a tank replacing on of the Tempest/Thief for Gorseval?

Or maybe

1) PS Warrior, Druid Buffer, Tempest/Thief, Tempest/Thief, Tempest Thief
2) PS Warrior, Tempest/Thief, Tempest/Thief
3) Herald, Chronomancer

With a tank replacing on of the Tempest/Thief for Gorseval?

Second setup is morwe realistic aND it’s what we use too. No problems so far. We have chrono DH rev ps war tempest In g1. G2 varies but has an engine druid and ps war usually

d/w warhorn eles share their fury to their party with fire 4, cough 2 eles, cough, sabetha, cough.

Iris Ng.9845:

The E.G. raid team has a resident dragonhunter in almost every Gorseval no updraft videos post patch. I’m not sure they provided the pov of the dragonhunter but I’m pretty positive with the experience i have with them. In fact, the well timed aegis for the group of five during the slam attack does benefit the team dps in that fight.

Besides, my regular group always has a dragonhunter tank for vale guardian and he is amazing. He could sustain very very well independent from the healer who is already busy with keeping up the sustain of the green group. I have seen both chronotank and tempest tank struggle without external healing/protection/etc and their damage rotation suffers. Not with the dragonhunter. I’m not gonna hype it because I haven’t played dragonhunter myself but my experience with good ones proves that they have never impeded the group dps like the conventional perception. Their ease of play and high dps potential outclassed the current Revenant and should be recognized accordingly.

*Edit a few auto correct.

Eh I’m assuming you’re talking about my group, the one with manbear leading? We don’t usually bring DH to gorseval for “serious” runs (i.e. speedclears and selling) because the permanent protection is not as valuable as in other fights and druid tank is kinda just the way to go there. It’s nice to have prot on eles during the ground pound but they can give it to themselves with overload. The times we’ve run DH are generally because 1.) someone wants to play DH or 2.) we are doing some sort of “special” kill like the one of every class thing or full clearing without changing comp. Recently we have been trying out using aegis to block the slam though. It seems pretty good but I’m not sure it’s actually better than just having an ele or thief instead.

We do however bring DH pretty consistently on VG and occasionally on Sabetha.

cranos.5913:

Hunter.4783:

1-2 heralds are probably optimal right now however with 1 being a near must.

Are heralds more important to a raid team than DH? For sure, just like druids and chronos are.

This is just not true though. Revs aren’t a must at all and “optimal” is most likely stacking eles again.

One rev is a must on every raid boss (in the sense that you would lose substantial dps without them). Facet of Nature is too ridiculous to pass up, not just on your mesmer but also your warriors and even elementalists. They are also one of the best classes in the game for eating break bars since they don’t have to sacrifice any skill slots and still have huge stuns.

Two revs isn’t too great but it certainly makes might and fury easy to come by.

Thaddeus.4891:

So what would be the ideal composition now then?

1) PS Warrior, Chronomancer, Druid Buffer, Tempest/Thief, Tempest/Thief
2) PS Warrior, Chronomancer, Druid Buffer, Tempest/Thief, Tempest/Thief

With a tank replacing on of the Tempest/Thief for Gorseval?

Or maybe

1) PS Warrior, Druid Buffer, Tempest/Thief, Tempest/Thief, Tempest Thief
2) PS Warrior, Tempest/Thief, Tempest/Thief
3) Herald, Chronomancer

With a tank replacing on of the Tempest/Thief for Gorseval?

This is what we have been using recently and I think it’s pretty tough to beat for gorseval. There is a core of 8 classes and two interchangeable DPS roles. It’s pretty similar to your comp #2.

1.) PS War, Engineer, Tempest (Staff), [DPS]
2.) PS War, Tempest (Staff), [DPS]
3.) Chronomancer, Herald
4.) Druid (tank, if using updrafts)

DPS can be tempest of thief or any number of other things really including guardian or 2x necro. As long as everyone actually knows how to play their class there shouldn’t be too much trouble, even with no updraft kills. Gorseval is kindof a bad fight to talk about comp though because, as long as your group meets the DPS check, you can really just run whatever you want. Most of the problems I have seen groups have with goreseval are not related to the classes people bring. It is people not dodging slam, or being bad at killing orbs, or getting egged, or moving gorseval too much and dps is lost, or not knowing break patterns, or positioning badly and making heals less effective, or having bad movement and spirits get left behind, or people just not executing their rotations properly and dealing crap dps. These are all things that are class independent and they have waaaaay more impact on the fight than whether you bring a thief or a DH. You can swap around all the classes you want but if you are losing to the mechanics of the fight then your “optimal” comp is worthless.

tl;dr I would take a good guardian over a mediocre anything else

@OP: Oh sorry, I think I assume too much? I watched the one video with DH in your comp and was in a run with a DH from VG to Sab that I had thought DH is a new thing in EG’s raid team currently. Also, I agree with what you’ve said. I have run every selfish shenanigans with my regular group and we can just clear gorseval in under 5 tries. So, either Gors is easy enough for 9 people to carry me (not tight dps check) or every class has sufficient dps to bring on the table.