Guild Wars 2

OnizukaBR.8537:

Not a single piece of GW2 is for everyone. Even open world, not because its difficult, its super easy, and for that reason there a lot of players dislike open world because its boring. So they would need way harder open world content to enjoy it. But they wont get it.
The same way people wont get easy raids ( Well many actually would aggre that we already have easy raids, scort and trio). Every content have a target audience. Good design = having choices of type of content. Bad design = trying to please everyone twisting content of its core porpuse and never pleasing everyone because its impossible.

There is a major fundamental difference between developing the content so all can access it and have a chance to complete it, and letting the players choose to play it or choose not to play it as they wish, versus having tier level content with a barrier to entry not accessible to some players.

This is where variable difficulty settings help developers, as all content can be designed for all players, rather than having to choose which crowd to please at the expense of observing net loss attrition in the others.

I’m talking about accessibility and availability here. The players choose what they want to play, not the designers.

SoV.5139:

OnizukaBR.8537:

Not a single piece of GW2 is for everyone. Even open world, not because its difficult, its super easy, and for that reason there a lot of players dislike open world because its boring. So they would need way harder open world content to enjoy it. But they wont get it.
The same way people wont get easy raids ( Well many actually would aggre that we already have easy raids, scort and trio). Every content have a target audience. Good design = having choices of type of content. Bad design = trying to please everyone twisting content of its core porpuse and never pleasing everyone because its impossible.

There is a major fundamental difference between developing the content so <b>all can access it and have a chance to complete it</b>, and letting the players choose to play it or choose not to play it as they wish, versus having tier level content with a barrier to entry not accessible to some players.

This is where variable difficulty settings help developers, as all content can be designed for all players, rather than having to choose which crowd to please at the expense of observing net loss attrition in the others.

I’m talking about accessibility and availability here. The players choose what they want to play, not the designers.

But all can acess raids, and all have a chance to complete it, you choose to do it or not, not the designer. Variable difficult doesnt help developers, its a nightmare for them, because its very hard to say when its easy enough or when its difficult enough, and there are mechanics thats just impossible to make it easier without basically removing then.
So as said milion times:
- There is no wall on the content making impossible to anyone that wants to join.
- Difficulty settings make things a nightmare to develop.
- There will be always people that wont be able to complete, so wasting time making easier raids.

OnizukaBR.8537:

But all can acess raids, and all have a chance to complete it, you choose to do it or not, not the designer. Variable difficult doesnt help developers, its a nightmare for them, because its very hard to say when its easy enough or when its difficult enough, and there are mechanics thats just impossible to make it easier without basically removing then.
So as said milion times:
- There is no wall on the content making impossible to anyone that wants to join.
- Difficulty settings make things a nightmare to develop.
- There will be always people that wont be able to complete, so wasting time making easier raids.

Variable difficulty is not a nightmare for developers as claimed, so it doesn’t matter if it was claimed a million times. In fact, it is far easier and far less resource intensive to design the same content to be variable difficulty than it is to design completely different content for different groups of players who refuse play in the same content, due to the community being polarized on who the company should cater to. Its also not a waste of time designing a game for everyone when retaining the revenue of both groups is integral to keeping the game going, and if either group goes into net loss attrition that goal will not be met. Its not like GW and GW2 hasn’t already repurposed tons of content anyhow, so this is not a foreign concept to ANet. We see this myth of “waste of resources” a lot on forums, usually in place of any real valid reason to polarize the community one way or the other, but in support of doing so nonetheless.

TexZero.7910:

Scipio.3204:

And on my dungeon analogy, you can disagree , that doesn’t mean people don’t run them just for fun, don’t have to set prerequirements and have a good time. Perhaps all you saw was speedclears and gold farm, doesn’t mean that was the only thing people did.

And just because all you ever look for on LFG is meta x class role. Doesnt mean there’s not groups out there just looking for DPS/Healer/Tank without any other req.

So if we want to play the ignorance is bliss card your argument falls even further apart.

And if you think you’re going to find any more basic join request than that, you’re a bit confused on what makes a raid a raid and successful. It’s not on the individual, it’s on the group. Everyone has a part to play, sorry if dungeons trained you to be a solo-hero carrying bads, but that’s not how raids work.

I don’t really understand how this argument comes into the picture, but since you mentioned it I never had dungeon or even fractal completion problem because of class composition. Raids however…

Also if I didn’t know what makes a raid run successful we wouldn’t be having this conversation

OnizukaBR.8537:

And there is a alternative for end game instanced content, its called T4 fractals.

And I already expressed my concerns about that. There are several reasons fractals doesn’t fill the need for a “middle ground”. Shortly (Can explain further if you want)

1, Fractals can’t be the selling points of new expansions without locking them behind it.
2, Most people only run high-end and for a new player to catch up gear-wise and AR wise could take up to a month.

And most importantly:
3, New fractals doesn’t add anymore replay value, you complete it once then everything goes back to same. Fractals are more than 3 year old, by this time you are more than likely to have earned everything you wanted

Scipio.3204:

New fractals doesn’t add anymore replay value, you complete it once then everything goes back to same. Fractals are more than 3 year old, by this time you are more than likely to have earned everything you wanted

Yet the same wouldn’t happen for reduced reward/reduced difficulty raids?

Sarrs.4831:

Scipio.3204:

New fractals doesn’t add anymore replay value, you complete it once then everything goes back to same. Fractals are more than 3 year old, by this time you are more than likely to have earned everything you wanted

Yet the same wouldn’t happen for reduced reward/reduced difficulty raids?

I think you missed the point. Fractals have a predefined reward structure , they could double the amount of fractals we have ,yet we wouldn’t get anything new we couldn’t get in one run.Even the process of crafting Ad Infinitium wouldn’t be faster.

In raids that is not the case. If they add new raid it will have new weapons/armors/skins to work towrards to regardless of having tiered difficulty or not. If I had to make a comparison getting new fractals is something like getting a new raid wing that doesn’t have anything unique related to it and doesn’t even drop LI. All you get is magnetite shard and the usual raid loot (Exotic + small chance at generic ascended).

I really think a learning mode could help get more people interested in raids. But it is absolutely essential that NO REWARDS NOR ACHIEVEMENTS be given for anything but the existing difficulty. Something like this:

Just cut all mob hp to 1/10’th, and damage to 1/10’th. Still allow 10 players in. This would be a simple environment to go in initially on your own, learn the mechanics, etc. Don’t waste time making it too good, just a quick and dirty learners mode.

I think we can all agree getting 10 people together can be difficult. And I believe having to get 10 people together just for initial learning/familiarization is an unnecessary barrier to starting the content.

Additionally, for players who will never raid, but feel they are missing on the story, this would satisfy them.

If we can get more people interested in Raids, Anet will be able to devote more resources to them. I know some people on these forums want to believe that this isn’t true, but Anet is a business. There is a reason gem shop gets nearly weekly updates.

thrag.9740:

I really think a learning mode could help get more people interested in raids. But it is absolutely essential that NO REWARDS NOR ACHIEVEMENTS be given for anything but the existing difficulty. Something like this:

Just cut all mob hp to 1/10’th, and damage to 1/10’th. Still allow 10 players in. This would be a simple environment to go in initially on your own, learn the mechanics, etc. Don’t waste time making it too good, just a quick and dirty learners mode.

I think we can all agree getting 10 people together can be difficult. And I believe having to get 10 people together just for initial learning/familiarization is an unnecessary barrier to starting the content.

Additionally, for players who will never raid, but feel they are missing on the story, this would satisfy them.

If we can get more people interested in Raids, Anet will be able to devote more resources to them. I know some people on these forums want to believe that this isn’t true, but Anet is a business. There is a reason gem shop gets nearly weekly updates.

No rewards and no achievement will not happen. The devs are not going to do that to players, especicially when it takes a whopping 150 boss kills anyway for 1 set of legendary armor.

If difficulty setting come I’m pretty sure we will see “easy”, “normal” and “hard” modes with scaling rewards.

Swagger.1459:

No rewards and no achievement will not happen. The devs are not going to do that to players, especicially when it takes a whopping 150 boss kills anyway for 1 set of legendary armor.

If difficulty setting come I’m pretty sure we will see “easy”, “normal” and “hard” modes with scaling rewards.

If that is how it is implemented then I do not support easy mode. Progress towards legendary armor should only be possible via current difficulty mode.

thrag.9740:

Swagger.1459:

No rewards and no achievement will not happen. The devs are not going to do that to players, especicially when it takes a whopping 150 boss kills anyway for 1 set of legendary armor.

If difficulty setting come I’m pretty sure we will see “easy”, “normal” and “hard” modes with scaling rewards.

If that is how it is implemented then I do not support easy mode. Progress towards legendary armor should only be possible via current difficulty mode.

It’s your right to feel that way, but that seems to assume that an “easy” mode will be a cakewalk for average players.

We have yet to see what options there are for an “easy” mode and it could be a number of things. Regardless, having to defeat 150 bosses is a significant feat for any player. LI are time gated too so it becomes a long term achievement. Planning builds, gearing up, organizing groups, playing… There are a lot of factors you need to look at and account for. As is, tons of players can’t even run fractals or dungeons without difficulty, so raid content will still be the ultimate challenge.

Swagger.1459:

It’s your right to feel that way, but that seems to assume that an “easy” mode will be a cakewalk for average players.

We have yet to see what options there are for an “easy” mode and it could be a number of things. Regardless, having to defeat 150 bosses is a significant feat for any player. LI are time gated too so it becomes a long term achievement. Planning builds, gearing up, organizing groups, playing… There are a lot of factors you need to look at and account for. As is, tons of players can’t even run fractals or dungeons without difficulty, so raid content will still be the ultimate challenge.

I don’t care about whether it is challenging to other players, and I don’t care about prestige. Go try to run a fractal 25, then try to run a fractal 1 (or any of the other examples). If there is an easy mode that gives the same rewards as hard mode, it will kill off hard mode. Raids already take long enough to get an lfg filled, splitting the population will only make it worse. An easy mode without rewards could increase the population engaging in raids, but still push all the new players towards hard mode.

thrag.9740:

An easy mode without rewards could increase the population engaging in raids, but still push all the new players towards hard mode.

An easy mode without rewards will be as popular as dungeons were after the rewards nerf (so, pointless).

The solution might be to increase current level raid rewards (in quantity, not quality) after introducing easy mode. It’s not like they are all that good currently anyway (exclusivity does not confer longevity, it works only short term until players obtained everything they wanted).

Astralporing.1957:

thrag.9740:

An easy mode without rewards could increase the population engaging in raids, but still push all the new players towards hard mode.

An easy mode without rewards will be as popular as dungeons were after the rewards nerf (so, pointless).

The solution might be to increase current level raid rewards (in quantity, not quality) after introducing easy mode. It’s not like they are all that good currently anyway (exclusivity does not confer longevity, it works only short term until players obtained everything they wanted).

except easy mode purpose is not to allow people to obtain normal raid reward… most people want easy mode for lore and enjoying a little the raid fight. Some vocal minority doesn’t want to raid but just want raid rewards…

Hypairion.9210:

Astralporing.1957:

thrag.9740:

An easy mode without rewards could increase the population engaging in raids, but still push all the new players towards hard mode.

An easy mode without rewards will be as popular as dungeons were after the rewards nerf (so, pointless).

The solution might be to increase current level raid rewards (in quantity, not quality) after introducing easy mode. It’s not like they are all that good currently anyway (exclusivity does not confer longevity, it works only short term until players obtained everything they wanted).

except easy mode purpose is not to allow people to obtain normal raid reward… most people want easy mode for lore and enjoying a little the raid fight. Some vocal minority doesn’t want to raid but just want raid rewards…

In my eye the purpose of the tiered difficulty is to supply a wider audiance with repeatable instanced content and without a proper reward system that would be useless. Of course the easiest way to do that would be something like fractals, where higher difficulty adds more loot, but I’de be just as statisfied if the reward system would be like something like SAB where different tiers give weapons with different effect/color or even different weapons altogether, just something to work towards to.

Also people seem to forget this is an MMO. A proper reward system is just as important as the content itself, or do I need to remind everyone about TA aetherpath?

Hypairion.9210:

Astralporing.1957:

thrag.9740:

An easy mode without rewards could increase the population engaging in raids, but still push all the new players towards hard mode.

An easy mode without rewards will be as popular as dungeons were after the rewards nerf (so, pointless).

The solution might be to increase current level raid rewards (in quantity, not quality) after introducing easy mode. It’s not like they are all that good currently anyway (exclusivity does not confer longevity, it works only short term until players obtained everything they wanted).

except easy mode purpose is not to allow people to obtain normal raid reward… most people want easy mode for lore and enjoying a little the raid fight. Some vocal minority doesn’t want to raid but just want raid rewards…

No, that’s what you assume… No ingame activity will ever be rewardless. “Easy” mode raids would still remain the most challenging pve content so the devs are not going to cut out rewards.

Let’s not get into discussions of “vocal minorities” here and I’ll let you figure out why.

There are a number of games who have done these “things” successfully and it’s the rational thing to do. Thankfully the devs are looking into it and I’m sure we will hear something soon.

Swagger.1459:

No, that’s what you assume… No ingame activity will ever be rewardless. “Easy” mode raids would still remain the most challenging pve content so the devs are not going to cut out rewards.

Let’s not get into discussions of “vocal minorities” here and I’ll let you figure out why.

There are a number of games who have done these “things” successfully and it’s the rational thing to do. Thankfully the devs are looking into it and I’m sure we will hear something soon.

so tell me why easy mode should have the same reward as normal mode? i dont see any logic behind that…

the truth is that raid are easy, there are a lot of training initiative, but some people don’t want to raid and want the reward. That’s the problem here…

Hypairion.9210:

Swagger.1459:

No, that’s what you assume… No ingame activity will ever be rewardless. “Easy” mode raids would still remain the most challenging pve content so the devs are not going to cut out rewards.

Let’s not get into discussions of “vocal minorities” here and I’ll let you figure out why.

There are a number of games who have done these “things” successfully and it’s the rational thing to do. Thankfully the devs are looking into it and I’m sure we will hear something soon.

so tell me why easy mode should have the same reward as normal mode? i dont see any logic behind that…

the truth is that raid are easy, there are a lot of training initiative, but some people don’t want to raid and want the reward. That’s the problem here…

Did I say the same? No, I didn’t.

Easy to you doesn’t mean easy to others. That’s the problem.

So you can envision a reward system…

Mode 1- 1 LI per boss plus chest.

Mode 2- 2 LI per boss plus chest.

Mode 3- 2 LI per boss plus high end legendary crafting component plus chest.

You need 150 LI per armor set anyway and that alone is a huge time gated feat… The devs are not going to cut out rewards knowing the hefty challenge, time investment and gold sticker price for mats… to achieve legendary armor. Also knowing the only path to these armors is gated behind raid content and no other activity.

The devs want more players involved in end game content because that means more retention and $ at the end of the day… The average player wants to have fun and be rewarded while playing, not be stressed out after a long day… As Texzero once said, “it’s a game”, and I fully agree with that.

And nobody would run mode 2 any more.

Completely against such an idea. Give the complainers an easy mode without rewards and it’s fine. The people who will cry afterwards are the ones who just want the rewards without putting effort into something.

Vinceman.4572:

And nobody would run mode 2 any more.

Just like noone’s running fractals t4…
Yeah, right.

Astralporing.1957:

Vinceman.4572:

And nobody would run mode 2 any more.

Just like noone’s running fractals t4…
Yeah, right.

Yeah because T4 give 1 master chest and T1 fractal give 1/2 master chest right?? No, kitten have really crap rewards, your suggestion Mode 1 give the same reward of Mode 2 just 1 less. So yeah nobody would run mode 2.

Not that I’m in for an easier mode that gives the same rewards as the current one, but if we do add one and people start running that instead, wouldn’t that mean people don’t enjoy the challenge raids give as much as some claim here and are only in for the rewards?

Scipio.3204:

Not that I’m in for an easier mode that gives the same rewards as the current one, but if we do add one and people start running that instead, wouldn’t that mean people don’t enjoy the challenge raids give as much as some claim here and are only in for the rewards?

Nobody want to do things that the rewards are underwhelming, neither things that are really boring but got good rewards.
People seek the middle ground on MMOs, things that are both rewarding and fun.
So you do raids for both, if it was only for rewards fractals are better. So people enjoy challenge and enjoy rewards, is that really hard to understand?

OnizukaBR.8537:

Scipio.3204:

Not that I’m in for an easier mode that gives the same rewards as the current one, but if we do add one and people start running that instead, wouldn’t that mean people don’t enjoy the challenge raids give as much as some claim here and are only in for the rewards?

Nobody want to do things that the rewards are underwhelming, neither things that are really boring but got good rewards.
People seek the middle ground on MMOs, things that are both rewarding and fun.
So you do raids for both, if it was only for rewards fractals are better. So people enjoy challenge and enjoy rewards, is that really hard to understand?

Yet you would suggest a mode that doesn’t reward players at all?

Of course, because the rewards are made for the challenging content not for succeeding a faceroll mode like in 99% of the game. Raid rewards for an easy mode are just unnecessary.

And if you give rewards to the easy mode, the rewards for the other modes have to be increased tremendously otherwise nobody would run them. Players are going the way of the least resistance. They would accept getting 100g (insert any other insane thought) per day just for the login. You can extend that till such changes would destroy the whole game in the end.

Vinceman.4572:

Of course, because the rewards are made for the challenging content not for succeeding a faceroll mode like in 99% of the game. Raid rewards for an easy mode are just unnecessary.

And if you give rewards to the easy mode, the rewards for the other modes have to be increased tremendously otherwise nobody would run them. Players are going the way of the least resistance. They would accept getting 100g (insert any other insane thought) per day just for the login. You can extend that till such changes would destroy the whole game in the end.

Emm.. what? I really can’t understand your logic. Let’s say Anet added easymode and rewards to it, like 50% of normal. It can have 2 possible models then.
1. Concurrent raid loot cooldowns. You did wing in easymode – you cant get loot in normal mode and vice versa. Outcome – everybody will try to get to normal mode ASAP. No one wants to get less loot when he can get more.
2. Separated raid loot cooldowns. You did wing in easymode – you can get loot in normal mode and vice versa. Outcome – everyone will try to clear everything in easy mode and then clear as much as they can in normal mode. Both modes cleared means 300% of easy mode rewards/150% from normal mode, and ofc everyone will try to maximize reward.
So… what exactly bad and wrong with that model?

Vinceman.4572:

Of course, because the rewards are made for the challenging content not for succeeding a faceroll mode like in 99% of the game. Raid rewards for an easy mode are just unnecessary.

And if you give rewards to the easy mode, the rewards for the other modes have to be increased tremendously otherwise nobody would run them. Players are going the way of the least resistance. They would accept getting 100g (insert any other insane thought) per day just for the login. You can extend that till such changes would destroy the whole game in the end.

But challenging is a relative term, look at qT, raids are faceroll easy for them yet they are getting rewarded just the same no matter what kind of challenge they tackle. By this time most static groups find every wing easy and only clear them for the rewards every week. Even if they add a mode like lets say Swagger suggested, why would they clear the easier ones when they are just as capable to complete the harder ones and be rewarded more?

Also considering raids are on a weekly lockout people would want to shorten the time gate as much as possible, if lets say, in an easier mode you would get an LI/ wing that would mean 50 week to get enough for a set compared to 9/week normal mode or even more with harder modes. The “path of least resistance” not only refers to difficulty but time as well. People ran CoF p1 because it was short, not because the others were hard.

Rednik.3809:

Emm.. what? I really can’t understand your logic. Let’s say Anet added easymode and rewards to it, like 50% of normal.

In theory, yes, practically no.
People would differentiate very fast: Is it worth to invest more time and effort just to get a little bit more of rewards or not? If the rewards of the easy mode are too good and useful same people would cold-shoulder the normal mode like they are doing now.

We had several very good examples during dungeon peak time: CoF 1&2 vs. 3, SE 1&3 vs. 2, TA up&fwd vs. aether, Arah 1,2&3 vs. 4 even AC 2 was neglected by a huge amount of players although the path isn’t longer or more difficult than 1&3.

So, the rewards for an easy mode have to be pretty low which results in people running this mode one single time —> very good for lore hunters but bad for the overall community due to heavy wasted development time. Still, the faceroll reward crew would raise their voices again and cry.

Scipio.3204:

… look at qT, raids are faceroll easy for them … most static groups find every wing easy … … why would they clear the easier ones …

At first, even for the most pugs the raids are very easy. They are only hard for the ones not practicing & playing them enough till today. In my opinion there is really no need to implement an easy mode because all the guides, build advices, adjustments and experience of players who are willing to share and train ppl were resulting in the fact that it has never been easier to get into raids than before.

Of course, static groups would not clear the easy mode if they are able to clear the usual one. The danger is if you split up into several modes you split up the players playing these. Looking back onto the reward structure, with an unbalanced situation here, the current mode would lose many players because they would be pleased with an easy reward from an easy mode. This has to be prevented absolutely.

Scipio.3204:

The “path of least resistance” not only refers to difficulty but time as well. People ran CoF p1 because it was short, not because the others were hard.

There is no need to shorten the time gate. Some people were complaining that 150 LI would have been too much. These voices became more or less silent because the armor is still not attainable and you can raid and raid and raid with more ease from week to week.
And I extremly disagree to your CoF statement. Almost all dungeons are short as well. Like I mentioned above AC2 is one of the best example contradicting your thought; a very short path but in my opinion most of the players lacking intelligence to get that into their head. They think it’s hard to manage the cave which is one of the easiest mini event and the ghostbuster part which also has 0 difficulty.

Scipio.3204:

The “path of least resistance” not only refers to difficulty but time as well.

Then why obfuscate the path by adding unending and winding paths.

One path for all, is the true path of least resistance. Everyone goes through the same ordeals and challenges, they all share the same sense of accomplishment and no single person’s effort is devalued. Additionally, as there is only one path there’s no longer a need for this “least resistance” discussion.

One path, one difficulty. You want to do end-game content, go out and learn it like everyone else before you had to do. Join a guild or group. Asking for handicapped modes of play is a bad idea for end-game content, it’s meant to be a time investment. If you don’t feel like investing the time, that’s on you and you’re free to play any of the other quick and easy pieces of content the game has to offer for your path of least resistance style of play.

Vinceman.4572:

In theory, yes, practically no.
People would differentiate very fast: Is it worth to invest more time and effort just to get a little bit more of rewards or not? If the rewards of the easy mode are too good and useful same people would cold-shoulder the normal mode like they are doing now.

We had several very good examples during dungeon peak time: CoF 1&2 vs. 3, SE 1&3 vs. 2, TA up&fwd vs. aether, Arah 1,2&3 vs. 4 even AC 2 was neglected by a huge amount of players although the path isn’t longer or more difficult than 1&3.

So, the rewards for an easy mode have to be pretty low which results in people running this mode one single time —> very good for lore hunters but bad for the overall community due to heavy wasted development time. Still, the faceroll reward crew would raise their voices again and cry.

x2 rewards are not “little bit” at all, especially if you consider that raids are not that hard and their population is being kept low only because of negative feedback loop caused by anet oversight and community itself.
Situation is absolutely same as it was with fractals – at first T4 was considered unnecessary hard, but now everyone and his mother farming them because community have a lot of experience and there is no hassle to find a group to run with.

Rednik.3809:

x2 rewards are not “little bit” at all,

You are a player who doesn’t raid so I have to enlighten you: Raid rewards already are bad. Very bad if you compare them to fractals. And fractals are bad compared to many other things you can do to get gold in this game. Really, play raids and as a usual player you will be upset to see the reward after killing a boss because that’s what every player is without a particular addiction to raids.
So, if you give the usual raid reward to easy mode and double to current, it would split the raid playerbase hard because several would just run the easy mode because for them it’s ok to get the same things like before without a challenge as a double for way more effort. There has to be a fair balance and if you give the usual reward to easy mode, I suggest a change for the current mode to 10g per boss + 5 LI + 25 champ bags + 50 usual bags + 5 guaranteed exotic (precursor chance included) + 1 guaranteed asc item/infusion + 1 mini.
You see, this suggestion sounds doubtful or in some ears absolutely ridiculous but the relation has to be approximately like this otherwise the easy mode reward would shine over the other too much.
As we all know that Anet is still parsimonious with rewards we won’t see coming changes to that so easily and that gives hope that they are not crashing down the reward structure if they implement an easy mode. That would mean from a current mode with 2-4g + 1 LI, 1 exotic or the chance of 1 asc item/infusion + chance to get a mini + 2 champ bags + 5 green bags to almost 0 or maybe 2 champ bags + the 5 green bags for an easy mode.

Additionally, I strongly doubt that we will see such easy mode soon. We have had clear statements to Swamp and there still hasn’t been a change. Raids are out for a longer period now without changes. Sure, they have a look on their baby but at the moment it sees that there is 0% indication that we see an easy mode the next three months.

Rednik.3809:

especially if you consider that raids are not that hard and their population is being kept low only because of negative feedback loop caused by anet oversight and community itself.

The lfg is full, the population isn’t low. Your statement won’t become true even if you repeat it several times. I wrote it in other posts before that I’ve met so many players I couldn’t believe they would have success in raids. They are now clearing all 3 wings with some minor problems at Sabetha, Matthias and Xera. The rest of the 6 bosses are safe kills after less than 2 hours on Monday – not with static groups!
Anti-raiders argument so heavily instead of trying and noticing that they are crying about nonsense.

Rednik.3809:

Situation is absolutely same as it was with fractals – at first T4 was considered unnecessary hard, but now everyone and his mother farming them because community have a lot of experience and there is no hassle to find a group to run with.

Yes, and nobody except grinders and gold monkeys are wanting to become raids as easy as the rest of the content. Raids are on their own stage and it’s a must to defend that because such content was lacking in this game waaaayyyyyy too long.

Vinceman.4572:

At first, even for the most pugs the raids are very easy. They are only hard for the ones not practicing & playing them enough till today.

If you really think that, I don’t see why you are against the idea of tiered difficulty. Raids aren’t meant to be easy , it should be considered hard by everyone. That issue would also be resolved by adding harder modes to those who find the current one boring.

Vinceman.4572:

The danger is if you split up into several modes you split up the players playing these. Looking back onto the reward structure, with an unbalanced situation here, the current mode would lose many players because they would be pleased with an easy reward from an easy mode. This has to be prevented absolutely.

I’d like to quote you from when I addresssed my concerns about people stopping raiding altogether when they reach the 150 LI :

Vinceman.4572:

I pug weekly with many raiders above this value because they raid for a reason: They have fun to play that content instead of the other 99% in this game which is boring as hell.

If you really meant what you said here I don’t see what has to be prevented, noone would do the easier ones if they can do the normal ones , because they are in for the challenge also.

Vinceman.4572:

There is no need to shorten the time gate. Some people were complaining that 150 LI would have been too much. These voices became more or less silent because the armor is still not attainable and you can raid and raid and raid with more ease from week to week.

Arenanet already plans to shorten the time gate. I didn’t see you raising your concerns about that.

TexZero.7910:

One path for all, is the true path of least resistance. Everyone goes through the same ordeals and challenges, they all share the same sense of accomplishment and no single person’s effort is devalued. Additionally, as there is only one path there’s no longer a need for this “least resistance” discussion.

Actually, no. There are guilds doing their weekly run with 8 man for the sole purpose of reserving two places for those who want to buy it. I watched livestreams doing that. If I had to make an estimate the price of buying 3 wings right now is around the price of a full set of ascended armor.

If someone does that all they need to do from that point forward is to clear escort and trio. If they can even something else. There is your current path of least resistance. It already devalues the current raiders effort since they don’t even need to kill a normal boss to get everything from raids.

But the thing is, I’d prefer a mode that people actually enjoy.

Scipio.3204:

If you really think that, I don’t see why you are against the idea of tiered difficulty. Raids aren’t meant to be easy , it should be considered hard by everyone. That issue would also be resolved by adding harder modes to those who find the current one boring.

Because the status quo is absolutely fine and yes, raids aren’t meant to be easy as hell. And with easyness I don’t mean that you can just go into them brainafk and kill the boss. That’s all. Stop splitting hairs, it’s neither constructive nor is it bringing you success in this discussion.
And sure, harder modes are always welcome but the majority of raiders is fine with the current difficulty. On the other hand an easy mode has to be refused. Valid arguments were given enough in this and other threads.

Scipio.3204:

If you really meant what you said here I don’t see what has to be prevented, noone would do the easier ones if they can do the normal ones , because they are in for the challenge also.

Least resistance argument – if you give the same rewards. You need to have a good balance of rewards to play them. With former aether path reward nobody ran it. Dungeon reward nerf – nobody ran them. Of course playing the content is fun but if you get absolutely nothing out of it it reduces the fun. With easy mode and same rewards before and not a huge increase of rewards for current mode, people would still having fun playing the easy mode but the current mode would become unpopular because the balance and fairness wouldn’t be existent, leading to a withering of the current mode.

Scipio.3204:

Arenanet already plans to shorten the time gate. I didn’t see you raising your concerns about that.

Official words? Quote? I just read something about time gating in general but that was more directed to easy collection issues and crafting.
Furthermore, we have also read: “We have an eye on the raids and if some difficulty changes have to be made.” This statement is months ago, still no easy or another mode and like I wrote before I hardly believe that we will see an easy mode the next three months. And if we are getting one I guess they have the next hard raid rolling out or already in the pipeline.

To reduce the 150 LI is nonsense to me because if you have raided regularly from the start you could be at 200+ LIs now, if I’m right. And the armor still hasn’t been attainable so far. Enough time to get the 150.
Personally, I started late with raids but I’m on 100 now without clearing all 9 every week due to time + motivation issues. If they lower the amount, well ok, but it’s unreasonable for me, just an unneeded change.

Vinceman.4572:

You are a player who doesn’t raid so I have to enlighten you: Raid rewards already are bad. Very bad if you compare them to fractals. And fractals are bad compared to many other things you can do to get gold in this game. Really, play raids and as a usual player you will be upset to see the reward after killing a boss because that’s what every player is without a particular addiction to raids.
So, if you give the usual raid reward to easy mode and double to current, it would split the raid playerbase hard because several would just run the easy mode because for them it’s ok to get the same things like before without a challenge as a double for way more effort. There has to be a fair balance and if you give the usual reward to easy mode, I suggest a change for the current mode to 10g per boss + 5 LI + 25 champ bags + 50 usual bags + 5 guaranteed exotic (precursor chance included) + 1 guaranteed asc item/infusion + 1 mini.
You see, this suggestion sounds doubtful or in some ears absolutely ridiculous but the relation has to be approximately like this otherwise the easy mode reward would shine over the other too much.
As we all know that Anet is still parsimonious with rewards we won’t see coming changes to that so easily and that gives hope that they are not crashing down the reward structure if they implement an easy mode. That would mean from a current mode with 2-4g + 1 LI, 1 exotic or the chance of 1 asc item/infusion + chance to get a mini + 2 champ bags + 5 green bags to almost 0 or maybe 2 champ bags + the 5 green bags for an easy mode.

Additionally, I strongly doubt that we will see such easy mode soon. We have had clear statements to Swamp and there still hasn’t been a change. Raids are out for a longer period now without changes. Sure, they have a look on their baby but at the moment it sees that there is 0% indication that we see an easy mode the next three months.

I’m glad that you posses telepathic abilities and reading minds trough internet. Sadly, they are working quite bad, because I’m cleared everything multiple times, and stopped a week ago, mostly because I finally got matthias staff drop, legendary armor is too grindy and raiding trough LFG is too much a hassle.
Also, I recommend you to get off your high horse and visit dungeons and fractals, to see how “awesome” is loot from them right now.

Vinceman.4572:

The lfg is full, the population isn’t low. Your statement won’t become true even if you repeat it several times. I wrote it in other posts before that I’ve met so many players I couldn’t believe they would have success in raids. They are now clearing all 3 wings with some minor problems at Sabetha, Matthias and Xera. The rest of the 6 bosses are safe kills after less than 2 hours on Monday – not with static groups!
Anti-raiders argument so heavily instead of trying and noticing that they are crying about nonsense.

LFG is full in NA primetime, after raid reset? Right. I usually see such population in fractal LFG during off hours.
Also, try to wait a few days and join some LFG with low/no LI requirements and enjoy experience that absolute majority of new raiders having right now. Then you can come back and tell about “safe kills” and “people who don’t have problems with raids”.

Vinceman.4572:

Raids are on their own stage and it’s a must to defend that because such content was lacking in this game waaaayyyyyy too long.

Along with worst population drop in whole gw2 history. Uh oh.

Rednik.3809:

I’m glad that you posses telepathic abilities and reading minds trough internet. Sadly, they are working quite bad, because I’m cleared everything multiple times, and stopped a week ago, mostly because I finally got matthias staff drop, legendary armor is too grindy and raiding trough LFG is too much a hassle.
Also, I recommend you to get off your high horse and visit dungeons and fractals, to see how “awesome” is loot from them right now.

Well, seems like you are missinformed here:
Fractal rewards are about 10g every day + loot (T6 mats, rares, you always get rares —> ectos) + chance of asc chest. The chance to get a box is higher than in raids! Raid wing 1 and 2 give 2g per encounter and we have 6 of them. After clearing the you get 2 champ bags and 5 green bags for every encounter + some minor events you are doing for a whole week!
Fractal high reward can be attained daily --> about 70g compared to 6g + 6g + 12g (wing 1+2+3)
Additionally you can run fractals after doing the daily and you still get a huge amount of gold even if you buy the keys. The net outcome is still worth it, that’s why people farm level 40 regularly. You even have to use proper buffood (expense!) in these groups and the outcome is still high enough.
So, it seems you have absolutely no clue about the reward structure in this game.

Rednik.3809:

LFG is full in NA primetime, after raid reset? Right. I usually see such population in fractal LFG during off hours.
Also, try to wait a few days and join some LFG with low/no LI requirements and enjoy experience that absolute majority of new raiders having right now. Then you can come back and tell about “safe kills” and “people who don’t have problems with raids”.

In EU I see lfgs for every boss the whole week with a high peak on Monday and Tuesday, little bit less on Wednesday. Lesser on Thursday and Friday and then with a high peak at weekends.
Some with LI requirements, some without, depending also sometimes depending on the encounter which is not very bad because if you are able to raid and beat the easy bosses, you are fast in learning the next ones. Getting to 30-50 LI is easy within some weeks of easy kills. Then do some practice runs for the harder ones and afterwards you are welcome in every group you want.

Besides that, raids weren’t meant to be pugged. The fact that it’s possible is a good one and the presence of the lfg clearly shows: Raids are played regularly and by a not so small number you want to tell us.
I can again repeat Anet: They are pleased with the numbers and more players are raiding than in other MMOs. This is a big success of raids which you can’t neglect! Period.

Rednik.3809:

Along with worst population drop in whole gw2 history. Uh oh.

Wrong! People were leaving the game in droves because the HoT maps were made grossly negligent. Raids weren’t even out to that time. (Raid release was 1 month after HoT release!)
And now we have had a content drought once again! Look at the Bloodstone Fen at the moment. This is the real issue! Almost nobody is in the mood to play this map longer than necessary. It’s boring as hell. You cannot keep player with that, I agree.

But almost nobody left GW2 due to raids you can’t tell me that you are serious with that. You can’t blame raids and the small dev team for bad/horrible decisions in the company in general. I haven’t seen one single thread or comment on reddit of a player that said: I’m leaving because raids made GW2 bad. Hilarious!

Vinceman.4572:

Well, seems like you are missinformed here:
Fractal rewards are about 10g every day + loot (T6 mats, rares, you always get rares —> ectos) + chance of asc chest. The chance to get a box is higher than in raids! Raid wing 1 and 2 give 2g per encounter and we have 6 of them. After clearing the you get 2 champ bags and 5 green bags for every encounter + some minor events you are doing for a whole week!

If you are expecting endgame pve to be really profitable, then you clearly playing a wrong game. Last time it was good only in pre-hot arah before reward nerfs, when you could solo p4 and sell it for 25-50g x4 per run. People clearing fractals and raids for unique rewards and ascended drops, not for raw gold.

Vinceman.4572:

In EU I see lfgs for every boss the whole week with a high peak on Monday and Tuesday, little bit less on Wednesday. Lesser on Thursday and Friday and then with a high peak at weekends.
Some with LI requirements, some without, depending also sometimes depending on the encounter which is not very bad because if you are able to raid and beat the easy bosses, you are fast in learning the next ones. Getting to 30-50 LI is easy within some weeks of easy kills. Then do some practice runs for the harder ones and afterwards you are welcome in every group you want.

Again, try to join these groups and then tell me about these “safe kills” mentioned earlier.

Vinceman.4572:

I can again repeat Anet: They are pleased with the numbers and more players are raiding than in other MMOs. This is a big success of raids which you can’t neglect! Period.

I remember there was a discussion about that on reddit, when someone pointed out that Anet considered everyone who ever tried VG as “raiders”.

Vinceman.4572:

Wrong! People were leaving the game in droves because the HoT maps were made grossly negligent. Raids weren’t even out to that time. (Raid release was 1 month after HoT release!)
And now we have had a content drought once again! Look at the Bloodstone Fen at the moment. This is the real issue! Almost nobody is in the mood to play this map longer than necessary. It’s boring as hell. You cannot keep player with that, I agree.

But almost nobody left GW2 due to raids you can’t tell me that you are serious with that. You can’t blame raids and the small dev team for bad/horrible decisions in the company in general. I haven’t seen one single thread or comment on reddit of a player that said: I’m leaving because raids made GW2 bad. Hilarious!

People are not leaving because raids are bad content. People are leaving because Anet made very strong focus on them AND made them targeting very narrow audience. So a lot of people cannot experience raiding without a lot of frustration (multiple difficulty modes, suggestion found long ago? Ha, screw this, better use raid model straight from 2005) AND there is nothing new to do besides them. So, despite being a very good content, raids are pretty much involved in current population drop, just because Anet picked a wrong moment (content drought) and a wrong model (minority of PvE players) to introduce them.

Vinceman.4572:

Because the status quo is absolutely fine and yes, raids aren’t meant to be easy as hell. And with easyness I don’t mean that you can just go into them brainafk and kill the boss. That’s all. Stop splitting hairs, it’s neither constructive nor is it bringing you success in this discussion.

Yeah but the point is people like qT already do and can brainafk to kill the boss. Them and a lot more other guild. And if we add an easy mode people will have as hard time with it as some with the current ones. I’m not the one splitting hairs here. You can’t just say something is challenging and expect everyone to be challenged by it.

Vinceman.4572:

And sure, harder modes are always welcome but the majority of raiders is fine with the current difficulty. On the other hand an easy mode has to be refused. Valid arguments were given enough in this and other threads.

If you think harder modes are welcome, wouldn’t that mean noone would be intrested in them since the normal ones are rewarding enough?

Vinceman.4572:

Least resistance argument – if you give the same rewards.

If people could choose between a 20 week long and a 50 week long timegate to get the legendary armor, which do you think they would aim for?

Vinceman.4572:

Official words? Quote? I just read something about time gating in general but that was more directed to easy collection issues and crafting.

To reduce the 150 LI is nonsense to me because if you have raided regularly from the start you could be at 200+ LIs now, if I’m right. And the armor still hasn’t been attainable so far. Enough time to get the 150.
Personally, I started late with raids but I’m on 100 now without clearing all 9 every week due to time + motivation issues. If they lower the amount, well ok, but it’s unreasonable for me, just an unneeded change.

There is two way to shorten the timegate, either lower the cap or increase the weekly income. Anet plans to do the second, the source is in the latest reddit AMA.

Vinceman.4572:

But almost nobody left GW2 due to raids you can’t tell me that you are serious with that. You can’t blame raids and the small dev team for bad/horrible decisions in the company in general. I haven’t seen one single thread or comment on reddit of a player that said: I’m leaving because raids made GW2 bad. Hilarious!

I however remember a top 10 hated list on reddit, raids are number 9 on them. I also saw comments on reddit like people trying VG 150 times yet couldn’t succeed. I’m sure that doesn’t drive them away

“If you are expecting endgame pve to be really profitable, then you clearly playing a wrong game. "

I don’t but there is. Tarir multi loot. I don’t play it. I play raids. Raids are fine for me although the rewards are bad imho. In the end I’m right with fractals being far superior in terms of rewards than raids. That’s undisputable!

“Again, try to join these groups and then tell me about these “safe kills” mentioned earlier.”

Did. 30-50 LI groups are very successful here. Below that, not always. Of course.

“I remember there was a discussion about that on reddit, when someone pointed out that Anet considered everyone who ever tried VG as “raiders”.”

Quote of an official or just an opinion of a salty player like so often? I think Anet has the real numbers. They are comfortable. Unless they aren’t telling a different thing, I believe it for now.

“if we add an easy mode people will have as hard time "

Easy mode is easy, not hard. If people would put effort into the actual bosses they would notice that they can beat them.

“If you think harder modes are welcome, wouldn’t that mean noone would be intrested in them since the normal ones are rewarding enough?”

No, because you already said that there are static groups like qT and others who seek for a new challenge after having the current mode out for months. This is how it goes – everywhere.

“If people could choose between a 20 week long and a 50 week long timegate to get the legendary armor, which do you think they would aim for?”

Starting at 0 – obviously the 20. If you are at week 35, you don’t care and that’s what applies for the actual raiding people. But like I said, I couldn’t care less. Getting to 150 is an ease with all the guides, builds, help of raiding guilds etc. etc. etc. Even if you only run the most simple to pug bosses per week (VG-Gorse-Sloth-Trio-Escort-KC) you end up with 25 weeks of playing. Half a year, sounds pretty legit to me for a legendary armor but that’s only my subjective opinion.

“Anet plans to do the second, the source is in the latest reddit AMA.”

So we end up having a legendary armor would be as “cool” as a legendary weapon which are to easy to get at this moment = nothing cool/legendary or anything prestigious.
Hope we get new content soon then because I see the boredom coming faster with such changes. For sure/We all know those changes won’t only apply to the leggy armor!

“I however remember a top 10 hated list on reddit, raids are number 9 on them. "

Ofc raids are hated because they have rewards behind their barrier that bad players cannot attain. People always cry for and drag things down if they cannot get the profit out of those.

“I also saw comments on reddit like people trying VG 150 times yet couldn’t succeed.”

Yeah, rly? Sorry, no words for that. I don’t want to judge those players but they are definitely doing something wrong. See above, guides are out, enough raiding guilds to start with are present. I myself have lead many players to their first kills of bosses. I can’t repeat it enough: Put real effort into it and not only pretend to.

Rednik.3809:

People are not leaving because raids are bad content. People are leaving because Anet made very strong focus on them AND made them targeting very narrow audience. So a lot of people cannot experience raiding without a lot of frustration (multiple difficulty modes, suggestion found long ago? Ha, screw this, better use raid model straight from 2005) AND there is nothing new to do besides them. So, despite being a very good content, raids are pretty much involved in current population drop, just because Anet picked a wrong moment (content drought) and a wrong model (minority of PvE players) to introduce them.

If ANet did really focus on raids by now we would have another one, which we dont, so its a false accusation.
A-Net choose the model of only one difficulty because they know its the best. Other games tried tired difficulty, but the only ones that enjoy it are the folks that dont enjoy raid at all ( and even then only small amount of them), because easy mode raid isnt a raid, its just a easy dungeon with 5 more people.
Try to find someone who really enjoy LFR mode, its a snore fest, people just use for get better gear and never do it again.
GW2 have the best raid model of present day MMO market, i doubt they will change it.

OnizukaBR.8537:

If ANet did really focus on raids by now we would have another one, which we dont, so its a false accusation.

They did tho. You already forgot all these excited raid talks, right in the middle of content drought? That was main reason why people started to complain so much about raids, despite them being pretty good overall.

A-Net choose the model of only one difficulty because they know its the best. Other games tried tired difficulty, but the only ones that enjoy it are the folks that dont enjoy raid at all ( and even then only small amount of them), because easy mode raid isnt a raid, its just a easy dungeon with 5 more people.
Try to find someone who really enjoy LFR mode, its a snore fest, people just use for get better gear and never do it again.
GW2 have the best raid model of present day MMO market, i doubt they will change it.

Care to name successful raiding game with such raid model? If it’s really “the best” and everything.
Also, who is talking about people enjoying easy modes or LFR (though I’m sure that there will be such people, because everyone have different tastes), when we talking about it as vital transition point to transfer people from casual activity to raid environment? It’s like saying that low level fractals will somehow hurt experience for T4 groups.

Rednik.3809:

OnizukaBR.8537:

If ANet did really focus on raids by now we would have another one, which we dont, so its a false accusation.

They did tho. You already forgot all these excited raid talks, right in the middle of content drought? That was main reason why people started to complain so much about raids, despite them being pretty good overall.

A-Net choose the model of only one difficulty because they know its the best. Other games tried tired difficulty, but the only ones that enjoy it are the folks that dont enjoy raid at all ( and even then only small amount of them), because easy mode raid isnt a raid, its just a easy dungeon with 5 more people.
Try to find someone who really enjoy LFR mode, its a snore fest, people just use for get better gear and never do it again.
GW2 have the best raid model of present day MMO market, i doubt they will change it.

Care to name successful raiding game with such raid model? If it’s really “the best” and everything.
Also, who is talking about people enjoying easy modes or LFR (though I’m sure that there will be such people, because everyone have different tastes), when we talking about it as vital transition point to transfer people from casual activity to raid environment? It’s like saying that low level fractals will somehow hurt experience for T4 groups.

If T1 had good rewards it would hurt T4. And you want good rewards on easy mode raids ( LI being the good reward, if easy mode dont give LI you guys dont want easy mode) . And the point to transfer to raids, as A-Net already stated will be some of T4 fractals ( not all will be hard ), for example Swamp.

Vinceman.4572:

Easy mode is easy, not hard. If people would put effort into the actual bosses they would notice that they can beat them.

I never said it was hard. I never said the current ones were. What I said is they would be challenging , but to a different audiance, which remains true.

Vinceman.4572:

No, because you already said that there are static groups like qT and others who seek for a new challenge after having the current mode out for months. This is how it goes – everywhere.

The difference is, there are no months here, only hours. qT cleared the wings the day they were released. If they released a wing and even qT would be challenged by it you can imagine what would happen. It won’t happen until there is a difficulty system in place

Vinceman.4572:

Starting at 0 – obviously the 20. If you are at week 35, you don’t care and that’s what applies for the actual raiding people.

Yes, we are already at the phase where people are above the required amount of LI but you said that raiders don’t care about that. They care about the challenge. The “path of least resistance” can’t be really applied here since the goal has been achieved

Vinceman.4572:

So we end up having a legendary armor would be as “cool” as a legendary weapon which are to easy to get at this moment = nothing cool/legendary or anything prestigious.
Hope we get new content soon then because I see the boredom coming faster with such changes. For sure/We all know those changes won’t only apply to the leggy armor!

Sorry I don’t understand what you are trying to say here

Vinceman.4572:

Ofc raids are hated because they have rewards behind their barrier that bad players cannot attain. People always cry for and drag things down if they cannot get the profit out of those.

And do you think it will be good for Arenanet to support a hated game mode in the long run? What do you think , what will be the players reaction when they see raids as a major selling point for the next expansion?

Also calling players “bad” just because they aren’t capable for one reason or the other clearing the same content as you? Do you think this mentality is healthy for the game?

Deaths.9165:

Well radis are just for 5-10% of gw2 population.

Make easy normal and hard mode for Raids so we can choose which mode we want to join and the everyone is happy.

As usual, completely fabricated statistics are used to blindly push the narrative.

Let me guess, you don’t have a source on those numbers.

It isn’t about dumbing anything down. It isn’t about catering to “bad” or “stupid” players.

It is simply about raising a topic and asking (not demanding) Anet to consider extending the raid experience to include a wider range of players.

It doesn’t matter if that wasn’t the initial intent of raids. It doesn’t matter who raids might have been initially designed for.

It is simply about raising a topic and asking (not demanding) Anet to consider extending the raid experience to include a wider range of players.

No one wants to take anything away from anyone. And most, on all sides, agree that there should be some prestige (and recognition) for players who excel and play the game at a higher level.

People play the game differently. Not everyone cares about being the best or min/maxing or playing to the meta (even a little).

Raids are currently there to provide a high challenge level. But that doesn’t mean they cannot serve another purpose. Tiered difficulty would help temper the outcry regarding content droughts, make it easier for developers to craft a narrative without worry of exclusion and give more people something they would consider fun to do (the whole purpose of the game imo).

So again, it doesn’t matter why raids were developed. It doesn’t matter who believes raids are just for them. And, very importantly, people aren’t talking about taking away anything those people want or currently have.

It is simply about raising a topic and asking (not demanding) Anet to consider extending the raid experience to include a wider range of players.

And, of course, almost no one here is anti raid (asking to make something more inclusive is actually the opposite of “anti-”)

I think that is a fair request and one that deserves consideration.

Blaeys.3102:

It isn’t about dumbing anything down. It isn’t about catering to “bad” or “stupid” players.

It is simply about raising a topic and asking (not demanding) Anet to consider extending the raid experience to include a wider range of players.

It doesn’t matter if that wasn’t the initial intent of raids. It doesn’t matter who raids might have been initially designed for.

It is simply about raising a topic and asking (not demanding) Anet to consider extending the raid experience to include a wider range of players.

No one wants to take anything away from anyone. And most, on all sides, agree that there should be some prestige (and recognition) for players who excel and play the game at a higher level.

People play the game differently. Not everyone cares about being the best or min/maxing or playing to the meta (even a little).

Raids are currently there to provide a high challenge level. But that doesn’t mean they cannot serve another purpose. Tiered difficulty would help temper the outcry regarding content droughts, make it easier for developers to craft a narrative without worry of exclusion and give more people something they would consider fun to do (the whole purpose of the game imo).

So again, it doesn’t matter why raids were developed. It doesn’t matter who believes raids are just for them. And, very importantly, people aren’t talking about taking away anything those people want or currently have.

It is simply about raising a topic and asking (not demanding) Anet to consider extending the raid experience to include a wider range of players.

And, of course, almost no one here is anti raid (asking to make something more inclusive is actually the opposite of “anti-”)

I think that is a fair request and one that deserves consideration.

It DOES matter for alot of people.
Just because you think it doesn’t matter that raids are the only piece of content that isn’t developed for casuals, doesn’t make your point more valid.
This point just isn’t valid.

And yes it is ok to raise a topic about this “extend” raids, but people have every right to diagree and refuse this topic.

Dominik.5162:

It DOES matter for alot of people.
Just because you think it doesn’t matter that raids are the only piece of content that isn’t developed for casuals, doesn’t make your point more valid.
This point just isn’t valid.

And yes it is ok to raise a topic about this “extend” raids, but people have every right to diagree and refuse this topic.

I actually agree with pretty much everything you say. Those disagreements are healthy and the entire reason we have a forum, imo.

The impetus for my reply was to respond, with my opinion, to those who continually bring up the “this is what raids were designed for, so shut up,” and, even worse, the “omg, you just want to dumb the game down, so shut up,” responses we see throughout these threads.

Posters looking for a change (for the most part – there are some extremists I don’t agree with on both sides) understand what raids were initially meant to accomplish in the game – and most definitely have no desire to see the game dumbed down. My opinion (and it is just that) is that, for the sake of these arguments, that really doesn’t matter.

Many of us are here to ask that they consider a change – one that I personally feel would be healthy for the game. Extending the experience, for me, isn’t about taking anything away or diminishing anyone’s accomplishments. It is about giving more people an experience they would consider fun that fits with their playstyle. It isn’t any more complicated than that.

And, for the record, thank you for the reply and respectful debate points. It is obvious we disagree, but it is good to see that we can do so respectfully.

Blaeys.3102:

Dominik.5162:

It DOES matter for alot of people.
Just because you think it doesn’t matter that raids are the only piece of content that isn’t developed for casuals, doesn’t make your point more valid.
This point just isn’t valid.

And yes it is ok to raise a topic about this “extend” raids, but people have every right to diagree and refuse this topic.

I actually agree with pretty much everything you say. Those disagreements are healthy and the entire reason we have a forum, imo.

The impetus for my reply was to respond, with my opinion, to those who continually bring up the “this is what raids were designed for, so shut up,” and, even worse, the “omg, you just want to dumb the game down, so shut up,” responses we see throughout these threads.

Posters looking for a change (for the most part – there are some extremists I don’t agree with on both sides) understand what raids were initially meant to accomplish in the game – and most definitely have no desire to see the game dumbed down. My opinion (and it is just that) is that, for the sake of these arguments, that really doesn’t matter.

Many of us are here to ask that they consider a change – one that I personally feel would be healthy for the game. Extending the experience, for me, isn’t about taking anything away or diminishing anyone’s accomplishments. It is about giving more people an experience they would consider fun that fits with their playstyle. It isn’t any more complicated than that.

And, for the record, thank you for the reply and respectful debate points. It is obvious we disagree, but it is good to see that we can do so respectfully.

I just fail to see coherent reasons given for easy mode raids.

First, it is a valid argument to say that raids weren’t designed to be easy. Other content, like open world pve, is better suited for those that desire easier content.

But let’s move on to the affirmative arguments for easy mode. The main two mentioned in your post are 1) story and 2) easier gameplay.

1) On story, well, there’s not really a lot of it in raids. Yes, it involves gw2 flavor (as I would expect anything in gw2 to have) but it barely ties into the main story or the open world maps. For those that still want to know the story, you can experience it all in a completed instance.

Plus, this argument has not been levied against other hard content in the game. There are juicy lore tidbits in several of the dungeon paths (including arah), and a direct story tie-in with aetherpath.

2) On difficulty, there’s tons of easier content in this game. Arguably, almost the entire game. We are not in a short supply of easy content here. If you want easy content, well, you have it. Heck, if you want more easy content, you have that too, in the recent living story releases.

Also, raids are not easily converted to a (successful) easy mode. First, you need to find 10 players. Even in easy raids like escort and trio (are these too hard for easy-moders?), players have trouble finding groups. Next, players need to learn the mechanics. Contrary to the argument that timers wipe groups, I’ve found that the number 1 group killer is mechanics. Finally, you need to balance rewards. You want to make a move that people will play, but one that will not take away from normal mode. Easier said than done.

If you want an easy mode, then put forth good arguments for it. Talk about “debate” and “discussion” is pointless if you have no affirmative reasons for easy mode. Until then, all I see is anti-raid.

I really believe the backlash against raids was because of the content drought. Now that we’re starting to get regular content again, I’ve seen fewer complaints.

Chaos.5072:

Deaths.9165:

Well radis are just for 5-10% of gw2 population.

Make easy normal and hard mode for Raids so we can choose which mode we want to join and the everyone is happy.

As usual, completely fabricated statistics are used to blindly push the narrative.

Let me guess, you don’t have a source on those numbers.

From another thread about this subject

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

As of ~11 August, GW2 efficiency had the following stats

• ~56% have [zero magnetite shards]
• ~18% have 1-50 shards;
• ~10% have 50-150 shards;
• ~16% have more than 150 shards;

The above suggests that a lot more people have tried raiding than many of us might have guessed.

However, it’s probably fair to say that the GW2/E numbers overstate participation by a “significant” fraction.

• Not that many people allow their API information to be publicly available via this site.
• GW2 efficiency can’t estimate how many people play the game across any dimension, including concurrency (those logged in at the same time), hours spent playing vs chatting etc, number of active sessions per player, etc.
• M-Shards might not be the best metric to measure participation,
  • One can acquire them without succeeding and then give up on raiding.
  • Many players will spend them as soon as they have ‘enough’ to get good stuff.
  • The better choice of accumulated Legendary Insights can’t be easily tracked, since it’s not a currency.

So my guess is that GW2/E’s numbers represent an upper bound:

• For sure, less than half of players have stepped foot in raids.
• Those who start raiding ‘mostly’ continue to raid.
• “Probably” more people have tried raiding in GW2 than have tried its equivalent in other games.

_edit" modified the list of caveats, after reading Iris Ng’s post below reminding us that folks spend m-shards.+

take into account that very few people that play use gw2 efficiency so your pool is watered down to begin with and the fact that some people spend shards as soon as they can

The only people who know how many are raiding would be Anet themselves.

After 15 pages, the only thing we can say with 100% confidence is that raiding is a polarizing topic – with different players exhibiting different priorities. This puts Anet in a rough spot – one that I don’t envy.

The one thing I will say (and Ive said this a lot) is that the idea of casual players go to section A of the game and hardcore go to section B isn’t a viable model. It separates the PVE community and waters down developer resources.

Throughout all game modes, we need a range of difficult experiences, achievements and goals (with appropriate rewards for each). Whenever a game wanders away from that approach (in either direction), it creates the polarizing effect we are starting to see in this game.

Blaeys.3102:

The one thing I will say (and Ive said this a lot) is that the idea of casual players go to section A of the game and hardcore go to section B isn’t a viable model. It separates the PVE community and waters down developer resources.

Umm, isn’t this exactly what you want with an easy mode?

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

The one thing I will say (and Ive said this a lot) is that the idea of casual players go to section A of the game and hardcore go to section B isn’t a viable model. It separates the PVE community and waters down developer resources.

Umm, isn’t this exactly what you want with an easy mode?

Absolutely not. The exact opposite in fact.

Right now, hardcore players are pushed toward raids while more casual players are pushed toward Bloodstone Fen (current end map). This is the polarization I was talking about.

What I want is for them to make both of these areas offer something for more audiences. In raids, that would mean either a training mode or a gold/silver/bronze reward based on kill time (which would be my preference).

But what we don’t talk about is what this mindset shift would look like in a place like Bloodstone Fen. What I would like to see in open world is incremental waves with ever more challenging content. Basically, instead of events (and world bosses) appearing on a schedule, they should come as a natural part of event chains where difficulty ramps up higher and higher the longer the players “hold” the area. It starts off easy – offering a more casual experience but eventually becomes eye-bleeding hard – with raid level bosses appearing on the map. I believe that, as the map ramps up, casual players would opt to move to map instances where the content remains more casual – while more and more hardcore players would enter the map to face the later challenges.

There are many ways they could do this, but the perfect example of how this might work would be in Cursed Shore – defending the gates of Arah. Instead of defending against the same group every so often, the attack event would continue to add more difficult opponents (think a wave of 5-10 Gigaticus Lupici) until the players eventually have to fall back (at which time we have to retake the gates and start over – with the more casual experience).

In Fractals, this would mean making lvl 100+ islands rival raids in complexity and difficulty. The lvl1-50 would offer the casual experience while the 100+ would be the hardcore experience – giving people a breadth of experiences while still encouraging them to play the same content. That same concept could work for guild missions (even incorporating insane versions of Tequatl for “legendary” level missions) and for living story steps (more challenging challenge motes).

This is what challenging content should have been, imo. Just walling off raids and saying “this is for the hardcore players” and “XYZ is for the casuals” creates the polarizing effects I mentioned (and that we are definitely seeing).

Design a game for all of your PVE players (with story and compelling content in ALL of it), but use the resources and strong developer knowledge to vary that experience enough to make sure those game elements appeal to a variety of playstyles.

I have to wonder what the current raid team could do if they were tasked with making Mai Trin or later steps in the “defend the gates of Arah” example I give above more difficult.