Guild Wars 2

So I never played GW1 but I’ve heard about underworld and the other super hard dungeon. They were extremely hard instances to complete that required very good coordination from the team and rewarded the players with the best (most expensive and only available there) loot in the game. The dungeon also required the group to pay a good lump sum just to enter. This means the players could actually lose a good chunk of money if they fail (meaning very few people risked going in) so you had to do well or lose. There was also no respawning so you really needed to know your stuff.

When are we going to get content like this in GW2? This sounds exactly like the sort of “end-game content” a LOT of players have been asking for.

If the rumors are true and the dungeon design/testing team has gone awol, then just look here for people to help you out.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/community/links/Compilation-of-dungeon-solo-videos-1/page/2#post2109137

randomfightfan.4091:

When are we going to get content like this in GW2?

Never.
You have no idea how badly I’d love to visit FoW, UW, Urgoz’s warren and all the other areas again (you missed out on freaking cool content), but GW1 was… well, GW1. You know, where you actually had to know your s**t.
This forgiving, hand-holding game will never have something like that. Here, if you fail and wipe, you just go back to waypoint and annoy enemies to death.
Of course, we can always dream on… but no. It wouldn’t work out.
Maybe a mini-fractal with an Underworld theme. That’s all.

I think I need to interject here
When Guild Wars released there was Fissure of Woe and Underworld. Of the two the only one that was ever completed for a very long time was Fissure of Woe, and before any expansions that took a few hours even for a coordinated group. Maybe there were a few elites who managed to complete every quest in Underworld before any expansion was released but no one I know was aware of them. Underworld was farmed for ectos, people didn’t enter to complete the entire zone for a very long time.
guild Wars 2 hasn’t even been out a year yet, its too early to say if extremely hard content like that is going to be added. Personally I would like to see Underworld, Fissure of Woe, and the other realms of the gods at a minimum added as instances that took a few hours and could have more than our current 5 person cap. It would be epic.

GW1 was aimed at gamers. GW2 is aimed at dude-bro gamers. If they ever release a half challenging dungeon its probably gonna be in expansions and hype it as a 2nd coming of jesus even though it should’ve been in the game since day one BECAUSE ITS AN MMO…

All Gw1 Dungeons were hard… for a little bit then just like everything else they got really easy. Pull, Los and Aoe.

Everything was easily doable by yourself with 7 hero’s. I’m pretty sure DOA was almost solo’d by one guy, he did everything but one boss (on hardmode). I know Fow was solo’d. Not sure about underworld but I know there was 2 man speed runs towards the end of it.

There was mobs in the open world that were much harder than most of the dungeons in that game. But I do agree with you that this game does need hard content. Something that separates the Cof path 1 farmers from the real talented players that have no problem with any of the content in this game.

If Anet reads this, more HP does not make the game harder, it makes it more boring

do you want a challenging dungeon?
try fotm 26 with pugs (note don t say you do 48…48 is easy….26 is hard)

Remember to not invite any guardian and warrior……

You can do the same with low damage professions and NULL….without exploiting the corner….

This game is not easy is just horribly unbalanced….people that find it easy just have access to unbalanced professions/builds in parties.

I had a further proof recently….

I used to play with a shatter mesmer dps build….and really couldn t understand how people said mesmer were good for dungeons…..it was ubersquishy and difficult….even more than my D/D zerker ele.

Then i switched to phantasm DPS….. <.< and i had a build 50% more efficient with 1/10 the effort.

LordByron.8369:

do you want a challenging dungeon?
try fotm 26 with pugs (note don t say you do 48…48 is easy….26 is hard)

Remember to not invite any guardian and warrior……

You can do the same with low damage professions and NULL….without exploiting the corner….

This game is not easy is just horribly unbalanced….people that find it easy just have access to unbalanced professions/builds in parties.

I had a further proof recently….

I used to play with a shatter mesmer dps build….and really couldn t understand how people said mesmer were good for dungeons…..it was ubersquishy and difficult….even more than my D/D zerker ele.

Then i switched to phantasm DPS….. <.< and i had a build 50% more efficient with 1/10 the effort.

Sounds like you just upgraded your build for the situation. Nothing wrong there. No 1 build should be good for everything. That phantasm build will be great for pvp and pve while that shatter build will be crap pve but amazing wvw and pvp. Same deal with thief. 30 points into shadow arts is pretty much a must in wvw but it’s junk in pve. Venom sharing doesn’t make up for the wasted trait points. Venoms are junk compared to so many other utilities. Venoms don’t stack and dropping 1 good smoke screen or shadow refuge will be better than 5 shared venoms.

“upgrading” is not the right word.

Some builds/professions makes game easy…while using what you like makes the game frustrating.

Doesn t make sense that a FULL TRAITED shatter deals less than a single phantasm burst.

I.E.: 1 button press is more effective than a preparation with positioning and use of 4 skills with CD.

Its the same issue of 100Blades warriors….

And its more that there are OP builds/professions that works everywhere and UP builds that are bad everywhere.

Dramen Maidria.1034:

I think I need to interject here
When Guild Wars released there was Fissure of Woe and Underworld. Of the two the only one that was ever completed for a very long time was Fissure of Woe, and before any expansions that took a few hours even for a coordinated group. Maybe there were a few elites who managed to complete every quest in Underworld before any expansion was released but no one I know was aware of them. Underworld was farmed for ectos, people didn’t enter to complete the entire zone for a very long time.
guild Wars 2 hasn’t even been out a year yet, its too early to say if extremely hard content like that is going to be added. Personally I would like to see Underworld, Fissure of Woe, and the other realms of the gods at a minimum added as instances that took a few hours and could have more than our current 5 person cap. It would be epic.

Just because some people only farmed it for ectos, just because some people couldn’t finish the whole thing right away, it doesn’t make it less fun, and doesn’t make it useless.

In fact, because you have to keep at it, because it takes skill to get better and better and finally be able to be able to complete those quests… that’s an amazing feeling when you do it. It feels like a real achievement (as opposed to these silly Gw2 achievements and killing a monster with a ridiculous amount of health by smashing the keyboard any which way). Being able to do more and more, little by little, makes it feel like there’s new content, even without Anet adding more.
(So long as it’s not fake difficulty, but real difficulty).

Streamrolling through mobs in a dungeon as if the enemies are made of wet paper… getting everything done the first or second time… what’s so fun about that? When you’re done, it will be the same boring experience next time. Atleast with UW/FOW you had room to improve and experience new things.

I hate these “one to one” comparisons, “it hasn’t been a year yet, give it time”. They’re useless. Like comparing apples to oranges. Like this guy saying “Everything was easily doable by yourself with 7 hero”. Oh, except when UW/FOW was released, we didn’t even have heroes or any of the overpowered builds you could make for them. And henchmen were terrible, they were worse than the worst players in the world ^^ (No, okay, Devona and Little Thorn were better than wammos, except Anet gave them Heal Sig for some masochist reason)

do you want a challenging dungeon?
try fotm 26 with pugs (note don t say you do 48…48 is easy….26 is hard)

I was under the impression that FOTM had cheap fake difficulty meant to be countered with Agony, not player skill.
Is that not the case?
Let me know, because if it’s actually about player skill and not cheap mechanics, I’d love to go and play it.

Some builds/professions makes game easy…while using what you like makes the game frustrating.

Using the right skills for the right situation.
I tend to bring Engineer shield to dungeons and Elixir R. But in open world content I would rather bring a rifle with static discharge.

x per fection x.2096:

All Gw1 Dungeons were hard… for a little bit then just like everything else they got really easy. Pull, Los and Aoe.

Everything was easily doable by yourself with 7 hero’s. I’m pretty sure DOA was almost solo’d by one guy, he did everything but one boss (on hardmode). I know Fow was solo’d. Not sure about underworld but I know there was 2 man speed runs towards the end of it.

There was mobs in the open world that were much harder than most of the dungeons in that game. But I do agree with you that this game does need hard content. Something that separates the Cof path 1 farmers from the real talented players that have no problem with any of the content in this game.

If Anet reads this, more HP does not make the game harder, it makes it more boring

DoA was solo’ed by multiple people. UW was solo’ed before the Dhuum patch, it was impossible to solo after that, but it was duo’able. It was a pain though. FoW was solo’ed by multiple people. Urgoz was solo’ed by multiple people (some of which were the same guys that solo’ed DoA). Deep was solo’ed by at least 2 people I know of (one using a N/R with Spiteful Spirit, the other one using a R/N toucher build). Every single EotN dungeon was solo’ed at some point in time.

UW and FoW were hard as balls at launch, at the end, they were pretty easy. UW with heroes was nigh impossible in HM, but it was possible in NM, but it was pretty hard, because Dhuum would murder you. DoA with 7 heroes was doable, but not so easy. FoW was a joke with heroes. Urgoz and Deep as well.

All of those areas were insane at launch, but after the 2007 updates to Shadow Form, they became laughably easy. It just required team coordination (for DoA at least, UW and FoW less so), to do it well. They were still harder and more unforgiving than any dungeon in GW2 though. And I’d like to see some new, challenging AND REWARDING content as well..

Yes, after Anet gave us heroes, OP skills, more OP pve skills, candy corn and other sweet buffs (no pun intended), powerstones, grails, , other consumables, the whole game became a piece of cake. Almost as easy as Gw2. No denying that.
But those things weren’t there at launch or even one or two years later.

But not only is Gw2 easy, they also gave you all the overpowered stuff right off the bat.
This won’t end well.

Moving on.

lorazcyk.8927:

I was under the impression that FOTM had cheap fake difficulty meant to be countered with Agony, not player skill.
Is that not the case?
Let me know, because if it’s actually about player skill and not cheap mechanics, I’d love to go and play it.

i ll tell you how it is:

Fotm as many dungeon is irreasonably HARD and frustrating…..
The game is a mmorpg that lets you intend you can face any battle as you want.

The reality is:
1) you can play with freedom and die often in frustration

2) you can play like is intended following the same party composition, actions and EXACT pattern the dev team thought….and do it with your eyes closed

If your tactic is abusing the lack of AI, thus using the common tactics like LoS, divide et imperat, 100% projectile negation and stuff like that..

You are playing legit and in a efficient way….yet its easy and boring.
But don t even try to play for example ascalon stage like you would play a WWW map…

You have to pull enemies into pc and range….
If you just try to fight along npcs warriors/mages with 500.000 HP and 10.000 dmg normal Attacks (20.000 skills) will gladly show you how anet thinks a mob should behave….

Pugs at 26 can t execute those tactic flawlessly and even 1 of them unexperienced leads to the need to adapt to such monstruosity that can oneshot you in the blink of an eye.

Ex:
Yesterday a pug pulled 2 groups of mob at ascalon first door….
NPC died and didn t ress at wipe…

Took time and strategy to recover that.

If your tactic is abusing the lack of AI, thus using the common tactics like LoS, divide et imperat, 100% projectile negation and stuff like that..

Are you talking about exploits, or did I misunderstand?

Proper positioning is a valid player skill, yes, including line of sight. Like boxing isn’t all about attacking, it’s also about positioning. Car racing isn’t just about driving faster than the rest, it’s about proper positioning too. That’s skill.

And how is reflecting projectiles an exploit? Isn’t that the point of projectile reflecting skills? To… reflect projectiles? If the dungeon has a ton of projectiles, it’s no wonder players will… try to… reflect projectiles.Specially since it tends to be a big effective way to DPS because enemies do insaaaane damage and have insaaaane health. That’s not the player’s fault, that’s anet’s fault.

I wonder if you also think “kiting” is an exploit ^^

Monsters are so dumb, TBH.

improve all enemy AI — have them:
- kite melee, and strafe to avoid ranged attacks; and dodge
- get out of aoe
- try to prevent players from using their heal
- daze or stun if the player is using his elite
- try to knock players out of range of each other and keep them in place so they can’t support each other
- or ball players together and keep them in place to nuke us
- protect and heal each other
- kick players out of support aoes like time warp,
- poison us when low in health or downed
- stealth and walk behind us then knockback us into their fray, separating us from our teammates
etc

Hard Mode for everyone:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/difficulty-dilemma/first#post2102283

Agony is dumb.

Spectral Agony in Gw1 was meant to make you not rush ahead of content/story (from south shiverpeaks to ring of fire). It served its purpose well, and was also incorporated into the story. What’s the point of Agony? Artificial difficulty, because Anet can’t be bothered to make good enemies worth fighting.

Atleast make it work based on your ability. If your party fights well, you gain a boost (increase agony resistance). If your team fight poorly, get a penalty (decrease agony resistance).

2) you can play like is intended following the same party composition, actions and EXACT pattern the dev team thought….and do it with your eyes closed

What party composition are you talking about?
What actions?
What pattern?

What is this way I’m supposed to play? What is it that Anet is telling me to do?
If you’re going to say damage control support, well, I love that too, and I try to do it because I find it fun, but I would be more useful to my group if I jut DPS (which is boring). The game rewards damage more than anything else. It doesn’t care if you support allies or control enemies (besides reflect walls I guess)

Hard Mode for everyone:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/difficulty-dilemma/first#post2102283

Unfortunately this has turned to be a casual friendly game with temporary content, it’s working the best for them so I don’t blame them. I don’t expect to see any difficult content until an expansion and even then there probably won’t be.

Zogyark.4597:

Unfortunately this has turned to be a casual friendly game with temporary content, it’s working the best for them so I don’t blame them. I don’t expect to see any difficult content until an expansion and even then there probably won’t be.

This!
It’s just another hello kitty facebook copy.

Guild Wars 1 was also casual friendly, but it was still challenging and fun… or it was, until they added heroes, OP sklls, OP pve skills, OP consumables.

lorazcyk.8927:

I hate these “one to one” comparisons, “it hasn’t been a year yet, give it time”. They’re useless. Like comparing apples to oranges. Like this guy saying “Everything was easily doable by yourself with 7 hero”. Oh, except when UW/FOW was released, we didn’t even have heroes or any of the overpowered builds you could make for them. And henchmen were terrible, they were worse than the worst players in the world ^^ (No, okay, Devona and Little Thorn were better than wammos, except Anet gave them Heal Sig for some masochist reason)

I wasn’t saying that at one point in time that Uw and Fow were not hard because they were, but as time went on they got really easy and even hard mode was easily doable with only hero’s once the right build was found for the situation.

Now what do we do with this game that the content came out and was easily doable solo? Lets take the MF Dungeon, I solo’d this first try with ease, there was no challenge and in a group of 5 it was a joke.

The big problem between the 2 is that in GW1 anyone could take someone’s farming build or their 7 hero build and do pretty good with it, I had a 7 hero build that I could c space the entire game with towards the end of it. But in GW2 those same people cannot take a build from someone and do what they do with it.

Lets take strife’s guardian build, this is by far the best guardian build out there for dungeons, if you can use this build right all other guardian builds are garbage. But 90% of people are to bad to use it and have to resort to clerics gear with staffs, maces and hammers making them pretty much useless in this game.

Anet’s evolution of mechanics is really the downfall of the game, the introduction to 1 hit kills makes this game unplayable for a lot of people. It really is impossible for them to make the top 10% of people who find this game and every bit of the content so boringly easy happy while not making the other 90% who are just simply not good enough for harder content frustrated and angry that they cannot complete things.

I think the guy who said the hardest content is pugging level 26 Fotm is so right, I’m one of the people who have pugged this entire game because I have been unable to find a guild of higher skilled players for some reason and the hardest time I have is pugging the 10,20,30 daily’s because some people are just really bad at this game and because of this I doubt that as much as us 10% want much harder content I doubt we will get it.

You finding something easy doesn’t make it easy, ever thought that you’re just good? :P

Tsarbomba.9180:

You finding something easy doesn’t make it easy, ever thought that you’re just good? :P

Thanks for the compliment but one thing I’ve learned is that if one person finds something easy, 1000 other people will find the same content easy. It can be the hardest content in the game but after someone has done it enough times, it generally becomes too predictable.

MWF had some good ideas but overall it fell short. Most of the whole start of the dungeon felt just like filler but the end bosses they did good. They weren’t just slow shooting, 1 shot, predictable bosses. If the melee guy did about double the damage on his melee attacks, only cc’d you once if he was enraged and hit you, and wasn’t insanely bugged, he would have been perfect. The ranged guy was pretty good too but the lingering circles should have lasted half as long, hit half as hard, but were actually aimed at you, with all the massive amounts of bugs getting fixed, then the boss fight would have been perfect.

When a dungeon can be solo’d by multiple people, on multiple professions, the day after it was released, you know you have a problem.

randomfightfan.4091:

When a dungeon can be solo’d by multiple people, on multiple professions, the day after it was released, you know you have a problem.

The act of soloing content goes both ways. A lot of the content in gw2 is actually made easier when you are alone and don’t have 4 other guys messing up mob mechanics/positioning or spamming your screen with obnoxious spell effects.

At the end of the day the only way we will see change is if/when anet actively develop for this aspect of the game. The dev team is MIA or has not existed, I’m not sure which. It seems pointless content and rng lootboxes is more interesting for them to spend what little resources and effort they have for the game.

All dungeons were hard the first time you do them. I remember when we did AC (before the buff) back at release and it took us over an hour for the first path lol. But like most things once you learn how to run it/what skills to bring, it becomes a lot easier.
Sure gw1 dungeons were hard at the beginning, then everyone figured out how to solo run them on a permasin or 600 monk. I’m sure it’s like that with most games

Quick Mouse.7635:

All dungeons were hard the first time you do them. I remember when we did AC (before the buff) back at release and it took us over an hour for the first path lol. But like most things once you learn how to run it/what skills to bring, it becomes a lot easier.
Sure gw1 dungeons were hard at the beginning, then everyone figured out how to solo run them on a permasin or 600 monk. I’m sure it’s like that with most games

That’s true but some things can be made hard every time. It gets easier once you know what to do but still remains a hard fight. The best example I can think of is dark souls. It has many of the same mechanics of gw2. You can dodge the big attacks and counter and there’s lots of big hitting abilities. The thing is, instead of having only 1 shot abilities, it’s a plethora of varying medium-high damage abilities all with different animations, cast times, attack patterns, and ways to evade them.

For example. There’s some enemies where you not only need to dodge the attack, but have to dodge a certain way. If you dodge the wrong direction, you’ll get hit. If you dodge the right direction, you get some free hits in but if you wait around too long, the enemy gets to recover and attack almost instantly (basically swings back around and tried to take your head off with an axe). If you avoid that and stay in close, he’ll jump away and land near you, pinning you down if you don’t get away. If you run away too far, he’ll shoot you with lightning. Basically the boss has a plan for every situation and doesn’t freak out and become predictable and useless when you range or melee them while always keeping up a steady stream of attacks, ready to take advantage of any player who doesn’t respond well to the situation.

randomfightfan.4091:

Quick Mouse.7635:

All dungeons were hard the first time you do them. I remember when we did AC (before the buff) back at release and it took us over an hour for the first path lol. But like most things once you learn how to run it/what skills to bring, it becomes a lot easier.
Sure gw1 dungeons were hard at the beginning, then everyone figured out how to solo run them on a permasin or 600 monk. I’m sure it’s like that with most games

That’s true but some things can be made hard every time. It gets easier once you know what to do but still remains a hard fight. The best example I can think of is dark souls. It has many of the same mechanics of gw2. You can dodge the big attacks and counter and there’s lots of big hitting abilities. The thing is, instead of having only 1 shot abilities, it’s a plethora of varying medium-high damage abilities all with different animations, cast times, attack patterns, and ways to evade them.

For example. There’s some enemies where you not only need to dodge the attack, but have to dodge a certain way. If you dodge the wrong direction, you’ll get hit. If you dodge the right direction, you get some free hits in but if you wait around too long, the enemy gets to recover and attack almost instantly (basically swings back around and tried to take your head off with an axe). If you avoid that and stay in close, he’ll jump away and land near you, pinning you down if you don’t get away. If you run away too far, he’ll shoot you with lightning. Basically the boss has a plan for every situation and doesn’t freak out and become predictable and useless when you range or melee them while always keeping up a steady stream of attacks, ready to take advantage of any player who doesn’t respond well to the situation.

The problem here is people didn’t buy this game to play an online version of dark souls. I personally don’t like that game. I feel the game and dungeons are great the way it is and anyone that is having too much of a good time by winning can just go play the high levels of the fractals. And if they say it is impossible to beat because the AR needed isn’t there yet then they should continue trying to beat it as that is their challenge right there.

Tsarbomba.9180:

The problem here is people didn’t buy this game to play an online version of dark souls. I personally don’t like that game. I feel the game and dungeons are great the way it is and anyone that is having too much of a good time by winning can just go play the high levels of the fractals. And if they say it is impossible to beat because the AR needed isn’t there yet then they should continue trying to beat it as that is their challenge right there.

Clearly you don’t do fractals. It is impossible to beat because the ar isn’t there yet. That does NOT mean that it’s challenging. What it means is you’ll mindlessly walk through the first 3 fractals with ease then get to maw. You won’t be able to beat maw because an unavoidable attack (meaning there is no way to avoid it) will start pulsating on you, doing 9 ticks of damage, each tick doing over 1000x you max hp. If you were to use a res orb, it’d start ticking again. This isn’t challenging. This is a gear check. The people who did lvl 80 pre patch can’t even do 50. They can do 51, but the gear check at maw is just a joke. Please learn what the issue is before putting up points like that. It really shows your ignorance to the situation.

And about the whole dark souls thing. People do dungeons for the challenge. Putting challenging content in a dungeon isn’t a bad idea. If you don’t like it, then don’t go into the super challenging dungeon. Stick with ta, cof, and coe.

TC, go through CM, and then tell me there isn’t a difficult dungeon (since that one will drive you insane).

there is no difficult dungeon in any MMORPG after you learn the mechanism of the fight and learend the counters(might take time to learn them and mastering them) as all things can be predicted agienst the AI you can counter it before it even begins.

tho i would like some more intresting fights(Null is a great start but more and diffrent once to would be great)

x per fection x.2096:

Everything was easily doable by yourself with 7 hero’s. I’m pretty sure DOA was almost solo’d by one guy, he did everything but one boss (on hardmode). I know Fow was solo’d. Not sure about underworld but I know there was 2 man speed runs towards the end of it.

So? Less than 10 people (afaik only 4) ever managed to complete a duo UW run. The amount of thought, dedication and sheer hard work that was required for it was crazy.

Solo DoA? Same thing for that. Spending hours trying to kill the same boss by interrupting the same 1/4 second cast time skill multiple times in a row.

Solo FoW was admittedly a bit easier but it would still take an extremely potent player with extensive knowledge of the area and probably 100’s of hours played in it to do it.

THAT’S what you will never see in this game. No amount of dedication, work, thought process, intelligence, creativity or team work comes close to comparing.

Nothing.

Quick Mouse.7635:

All dungeons were hard the first time you do them. I remember when we did AC (before the buff) back at release and it took us over an hour for the first path lol. But like most things once you learn how to run it/what skills to bring, it becomes a lot easier.
Sure gw1 dungeons were hard at the beginning, then everyone figured out how to solo run them on a permasin or 600 monk. I’m sure it’s like that with most games

Go run UW solo on a 600 monk or permasin, I would love to see that. It took people a week or so to figure out how to run that AC path 1 in less than 10 minutes.

Do you know how long it took to work UW down from 15 minutes to 14 minutes?
From 16 minutes to 15 minutes after the nerf?

Lower times are still possible in UW. You know why they haven’t been achieved? Because the players are not good enough. Give me one example of a dungeon in GW2 where your efficiency is limited by human skill and not some boring cinematic or massive health bars.

EFWinters.5421:

x per fection x.2096:

Everything was easily doable by yourself with 7 hero’s. I’m pretty sure DOA was almost solo’d by one guy, he did everything but one boss (on hardmode). I know Fow was solo’d. Not sure about underworld but I know there was 2 man speed runs towards the end of it.

So? Less than 10 people (afaik only 4) ever managed to complete a duo UW run. The amount of thought, dedication and sheer hard work that was required for it was crazy.

Solo DoA? Same thing for that. Spending hours trying to kill the same boss by interrupting the same 1/4 second cast time skill multiple times in a row.

Solo FoW was admittedly a bit easier but it would still take an extremely potent player with extensive knowledge of the area and probably 100’s of hours played in it to do it.

THAT’S what you will never see in this game. No amount of dedication, work, thought process, intelligence, creativity or team work comes close to comparing.

Nothing.

Think you missed my point, I tried to explain in the second post. I do agree that gw1 dungeons were harder, at the start.. and as people got better they got easier. I was trying to get at the fact that Gw2 dungeons are already easy, they were right off the start.. so whats to happen? People are just going to quit this boring game.

I’m with you not against, calm down young one. I think Gw1 was 10x the game Gw2 will ever be. I wish that we could take the Gw2 player base and bring them back over to Gw1 but its not going to happen.

I remember being one of the first to farm sorrows furnace for green items with a Tank War, Prot monk, heal monk and 2 Ele’s before the Aoe nerf. Was some of the most fun I’ve ever had in a game.

Or spending 3 hours pre SF nerf soloing TOPK. Gw1 was a much better game both Pve and PvP.

+1 to alot harder content and harder dungeon’s this game is getting really boring really quickly with 0 challanging things to do

Tsarbomba.9180:

randomfightfan.4091:

Quick Mouse.7635:

All dungeons were hard the first time you do them. I remember when we did AC (before the buff) back at release and it took us over an hour for the first path lol. But like most things once you learn how to run it/what skills to bring, it becomes a lot easier.
Sure gw1 dungeons were hard at the beginning, then everyone figured out how to solo run them on a permasin or 600 monk. I’m sure it’s like that with most games

That’s true but some things can be made hard every time. It gets easier once you know what to do but still remains a hard fight. The best example I can think of is dark souls. It has many of the same mechanics of gw2. You can dodge the big attacks and counter and there’s lots of big hitting abilities. The thing is, instead of having only 1 shot abilities, it’s a plethora of varying medium-high damage abilities all with different animations, cast times, attack patterns, and ways to evade them.

For example. There’s some enemies where you not only need to dodge the attack, but have to dodge a certain way. If you dodge the wrong direction, you’ll get hit. If you dodge the right direction, you get some free hits in but if you wait around too long, the enemy gets to recover and attack almost instantly (basically swings back around and tried to take your head off with an axe). If you avoid that and stay in close, he’ll jump away and land near you, pinning you down if you don’t get away. If you run away too far, he’ll shoot you with lightning. Basically the boss has a plan for every situation and doesn’t freak out and become predictable and useless when you range or melee them while always keeping up a steady stream of attacks, ready to take advantage of any player who doesn’t respond well to the situation.

The problem here is people didn’t buy this game to play an online version of dark souls. I personally don’t like that game. I feel the game and dungeons are great the way it is and anyone that is having too much of a good time by winning can just go play the high levels of the fractals. And if they say it is impossible to beat because the AR needed isn’t there yet then they should continue trying to beat it as that is their challenge right there.

Only problem is they closed high level fractals, so basicly telling us to go away from this game.

randomfightfan.4091:

Tsarbomba.9180:

The problem here is people didn’t buy this game to play an online version of dark souls. I personally don’t like that game. I feel the game and dungeons are great the way it is and anyone that is having too much of a good time by winning can just go play the high levels of the fractals. And if they say it is impossible to beat because the AR needed isn’t there yet then they should continue trying to beat it as that is their challenge right there.

Clearly you don’t do fractals. It is impossible to beat because the ar isn’t there yet. That does NOT mean that it’s challenging. What it means is you’ll mindlessly walk through the first 3 fractals with ease then get to maw. You won’t be able to beat maw because an unavoidable attack (meaning there is no way to avoid it) will start pulsating on you, doing 9 ticks of damage, each tick doing over 1000x you max hp. If you were to use a res orb, it’d start ticking again. This isn’t challenging. This is a gear check. The people who did lvl 80 pre patch can’t even do 50. They can do 51, but the gear check at maw is just a joke. Please learn what the issue is before putting up points like that. It really shows your ignorance to the situation.

And about the whole dark souls thing. People do dungeons for the challenge. Putting challenging content in a dungeon isn’t a bad idea. If you don’t like it, then don’t go into the super challenging dungeon. Stick with ta, cof, and coe.

I’m just saying, don’t ask for harder content when you can’t beat what’s already there. The reason they put the AR barrier so to speak there is to control advancement. And as for the dungeons, I must not be a person as I do the dungeons for the rewards, and I do find them at the perfect level of challenge. I’m sorry if you don’t. A lot of people say they can face roll across their keyboard and beat some dungeons. Well, the only thing I got from trying this face rolling technique was a downed stated and keyboard dust in my eyes, so either I was face rolling wrong, or the dungeons are at an adequate level where all have a chance to beat it and not be reserved for the mighty few.

Tsarbomba.9180:

I’m just saying, don’t ask for harder content when you can’t beat what’s already there. The reason they put the AR barrier so to speak there is to control advancement. And as for the dungeons, I must not be a person as I do the dungeons for the rewards, and I do find them at the perfect level of challenge. I’m sorry if you don’t. A lot of people say they can face roll across their keyboard and beat some dungeons. Well, the only thing I got from trying this face rolling technique was a downed stated and keyboard dust in my eyes, so either I was face rolling wrong, or the dungeons are at an adequate level where all have a chance to beat it and not be reserved for the mighty few.

You just repeated your previous faulty statement. There is currently no harder content than fotm 48 and arguably arah.

Tsarbomba.9180:

I’m just saying, don’t ask for harder content when you can’t beat what’s already there.

As someone who got to 80 after patch, I can say that in retrospection it isn’t as challenging as some people make it out to be, except for maybe shaman 79. Sure stuff like putting reflection outside obvious boss fights, losing mobs, etc are needed but most efficient groups running 38/48 dailies are doing them anyway, it’s only an improvement from the average group flailing their arms in the middle of those packs of chanters/dredges/ascolanians.

50+ fractals are just an illusion of challenge, in the same way how people put restrictions on themselves to do x encounters.

And I don’t think you mean people should do AC in blue-geared 40s before they have the right to ask for harder content.

randomfightfan.4091:

So I never played GW1 but I’ve heard about underworld and the other super hard dungeon. They were extremely hard instances to complete that required very good coordination ….

Ha ha
hahaha….
Hahahahahaaaaa … oh wow. Terraway & Shadowfarm sure wasn’t “Coordinating”.
…atleast not beyond advertising that you already had a couple good ones in TOA…

Without them?? Yeah DOA and UW were actually well designed and “super hard”. …But the instant you could Tank&Spank (IE: ball all the mobs up & AOE them super fast)…. all that skill required just went out the door. Especially with full Consets. I remember so many times we tried to do the 4-Horsemen or Servants without a ShadowSin, and we failed everytime nomatter HOW WELL I played Mesmer against those Dryders. I was even interrupting Bone Flurries on the Skeles for kittens sake. And then anytime we brought a Shadowtank, it was like so boring by comparison I was actually falling asleep half the time.

Aside from Crucible, I have to say I never really saw any dungeon paths in this game that were that Binary just b/c you ran one gimmick class instead of some other “balanceway” builds. Really have to give Anet credit for that despite the other issues I’ve had with their dungeons so far.

Tsarbomba.9180:

*I’m just saying, don’t ask for harder content when you can’t beat what’s already there. *The reason they put the AR barrier so to speak there is to control advancement. And as for the dungeons, I must not be a person as I do the dungeons for the rewards, and I do find them at the perfect level of challenge. I’m sorry if you don’t. A lot of people say they can face roll across their keyboard and beat some dungeons. Well, the only thing I got from trying this face rolling technique was a downed stated and keyboard dust in my eyes, so either I was face rolling wrong, or the dungeons are at an adequate level where all have a chance to beat it and not be reserved for the mighty few.

Since you just repeated this faulty statement, you’ve made it so that anything you have said and may say later in this thread will be null and void. I know many people who are capable of completing the content for fractal level 80. We would beat all the bosses until maw. We’d be able to kill anything there but then would fail the gear check. This has been explained to you multiple times and I’m only repeating this as a courtesy. There is a reason why multiple groups were able to get to and complete fractal 80 before they intentionally bugged maw.

About the whole faceroll thing. I have blanked out multiple times while doing dungeon runs. I would wake up with 3-4 runs completed and I’d ask myself where has the time gone. This doesn’t just happen in cof farms. I’ve had this happen during many arah, coe, ta, and fractal runs (is this the 1st or 2nd fractal? It’s the 3rd you dummy!). If I can effortlessly stroll through a dungeon while only being semi-conscious, then there needs to be some sort of higher difficulty dungeons to pose a challenge to players.

where all have a chance to beat it and not be reserved for the mighty few

dungeons are supposed to be the high end pve content. If everyone and their grandma can beat it with little to no effort then it isn’t very high end. At least Lupi is still fun. He’s easy after a while but remains fun.

Dungeons are easy because it is not balanced around the control role. First, lets ask: Why is inferior professions inferior? Because their pvp design is about control. We don’t need control other than projectile reflection. Lets ask: Why do we not need control? The answer, Each and every encounter is balanced around 2 or less dodges. It has to be balanced around 3 or more dodges to make it hard and make it open to more inferior professions like the Rangers.

Why would balancing dungeons on more than three dodges will open up more professions and builds? Simple.

Three scavengers leap at you at three different times. You can only dodge two, someone needs to stun the third one.

What if you don’t have anyone to stun the third one? You have to use a block skill to survive.
Rangers, the least wanted profession, can take up the offer for both positions. A bow ranger can daze or knockback the third enemy. Also, a sword/dagger or greatsword ranger can evade/block using the skills.
ArenaNet has to balance the dungeon around control, not dodge rolls if they want explorable dungeons to be HARD. This will open up more to inferior professions as this is their expertise.

That’s a pretty smart analysis rune. Never thought about it like that. It should decision based combat too though. Instead of the enemy doing multiple 1 shot abilities, they do multiple medium power abilities. That makes it so the player can’t dodge everything so they’d have to learn which hits to take and which to avoid with also needing to figure out new ways to avoid damage over just blocking and dodging.

I disagree that only damage need tuning. I believe that dungeons should be re-worked from the scratch if Anet wants to achieve harder and fun dungeons while avoiding fake difficulty.

I am in the middle of typing up a huge essay on creating a hard mode for Guild Wars 2. It goes way beyond than just three scavengers and two dodges.

In summary, it needs more type of mob groups(Mobs that are stronger together, mobs that are weaker together, mobs that makes you qq) and certain mob AI(coordinated and unlockable attack skills when mobs are clustered up.) It also contains why each kind of builds/control/role will be useful in this hard mode.

I think there already is a boss like this, its been 5/6 months but when I did Hotw story I remember the last boss having something that needed at least 3 dodges to take no damage. Its a bit blurry but I do remember having to double dodge and swap weapons to one with sigil of energy and dodge again.

randomfightfan.4091:

That’s a pretty smart analysis rune. Never thought about it like that. It should decision based combat too though. Instead of the enemy doing multiple 1 shot abilities, they do multiple medium power abilities. That makes it so the player can’t dodge everything so they’d have to learn which hits to take and which to avoid with also needing to figure out new ways to avoid damage over just blocking and dodging.

Like in PvP.
It’s good to dream, sometimes, but it’s pretty obvious that a control-based dungeon/combat overhaul isn’t going to happen. There are people out there who still wipe continuosly and repeatedly at Kholer.

This is a casual game. That’s all. Designed to please the most, with a bit of everything: horizontal and vertical progression, some heavy grind (leggies) but also a decent access to exotics without having to farm a lot, soloable content and group instances, an open PvP zone but with a little bit of PvE in it. And I could go on for ages.

All this relaxed, casual stuff is extremely enjoyable, and I’m sure that we’ll get new dungeons with decent encounters (if the game in the future will have enough players to justify the cost of development, aside from the everlasting cash shop adds), but not something where there’s a big challenge, unforgiving mechanics (failure on wiping) à la GW1 and a remarkable reward at the end. We all know why…
<arrrrrhhhhh i want that shiny too!!1!! i payied for dis game!!!!!! >

Also, CC’ing, as in blinding, knocking down, pushing back u.s.w. is pretty hard to do correctly without harming your own team (a random shield of absorption while you’re using 100b, anyone?), and many people dodge and spam skills so randomly that even 2 dodges + invulnerability/block/blind/vigor skills aren’t enough. Imagine the amount of whining if we needed to actually time our actions and pay attention. A long fight, where attrition mechanics like CCs and conditions shine, needs sustain and careful skill management to succeed.

A better AI would be something as a start. Not as good as a dungeon where CCs matter (am I dreaming? Can I use my necro?) but better than a karka in the face. I’m tired of seeing those poor kittened mobs killing themselves against my WoR. Mobs that move, that kite, oh my… Still, even a change like that (having mobs stop using ranged projectiles against a reflection) probably requires big amounts of effort on the developers’ end.
An effort that, apparently, they’re not willing to/can’t spare. For now.

P.S. the gloomy soul in me would like to add: “For now and forever, because this game has a specific target in mind. And it’s not that”.

A… shiny zodiac skin without having to buy it from the shop, perhaps? Pretty please?

Ahahaha yeah I had some guy in my party today saying “oh stack here it is easier”… -cough- it is AC, NOBODY needs to stack ANYWHERE… If someone dies in AC it is because they weren’t paying attention and made a silly mistake (happens to the best of us) or they are terrible and need to improve, even as a glass cannon it is an easy dungeon to run.

Lol at people who cannot do kholer though, I hate having to convince people to do him because I want the silver r_r.

To be fair the game’s mechanics allow for it, they need tweaking but fractal play shows the potential is there mechanically… Even with the trash mobs in fractals OR heck look at the molten forge, yeah it wasn’t hard but the mechanics hit hard when they hit (with the molten infused berserker atleast)

I would personally love a harder sequence of dungeons than what exists and the next person who says AC is hard needs to build a real build, go with a good team and learn to dodge, position and fight.

runeblade.7514:

Why would balancing dungeons on more than three dodges will open up…

Two words…. Curry Pumpkin :\

It was a nice try,
…but Even in encounters like Lupi where you need like FOUR dodges sometimes (in which cases I’ve seen a few rare but really good Assassins just make Lupi look like any other boring boss) … there’s always going to be more exceptions to the rule simply b/c control isn’t RELIABLE in GW2 like it was in GW1. We could Immob those Scavies for instance but you know what happened next??… you still got knocked down and ate-on even though they were standing 30ft away. The game is too buggy in some cases. I wouldn’t be surprised if Lupi’s homing snot-rockets were still bugged too and couldn’t be dodged mid-air in some cases. And you can’t interrupt that or “control” them.

There’s too much spam to control in most cases. Or in the cases of those super overpowered TA knights who 1-shot everyone with melee, control would just trivialize them so badly that no one would bring anything but ranged Zerker builds with immobs. Spamming goes both ways y’know.

In Gw1 there’s a perfect example after the Mez update: when Signets got Buffed … suddenly there was teams with 5 mesmers spamming the same crap b/c when 5 people are doing it, just about EVERYTHING is going to be getting interrupted automatically. IoW: Perception of Artificial skill.

unknowable.8470:

Ahahaha yeah I had some guy in my party today saying “oh stack here it is easier”… -cough- it is AC, NOBODY needs to stack ANYWHERE… If someone dies in AC it is because they weren’t paying attention and made a silly mistake (happens to the best of us) or they are terrible and need to improve, even as a glass cannon it is an easy dungeon to run.

There are places that if you stack (los) it is easier and faster. Ex: pull spider queen + all adds at once up to the flame things. you don’t have to kite, you take far less damage and 1 wall of reflection protects from all adds making this much faster and easier.

Another example would be the group right after the spider queen there is a spot in the rocks where u can pull/los the group and the Scavenger will not go underground making it yet again faster and easier. Also the final boss in path 3 is much faster if you stack in the corner so it can’t knock you back.

So although you do not “need” to do these things it is much faster if you do, so before you come here trying to say someone who’s trying to make the run faster for you is bad, learn to play Sounds like you main a ranger and think your uber pro because you stand at 1200 auto attacking.

UW, FoW, Urgoz, The Deep, DoA, Slaver’s exile (Duncan the Black is racist btw, no wonder the place is called slaver’s.) and the other dungeons were all easy. UW and FoW cost money but you made a lot more, and didn’t lose too much if the group failed assuming you were at least completing some runs.

The only areas out of all of these I never successfully completed with heroes was UW and DoA, although I have heard someone claim to have done UW (I still don’t believe him).

These areas did take coordination but you would not see people really talking about the instances before entering unless they were just doing randomway (I don’t assume everyone remembers this phrase). All that would really happen is people say their role and begin. These endgame dungeons (and elite areas) that were frequently run were done more easily than a lot of the runs that take place in GW2.

Edit 2: I just realized how big a contradiction this sentence was, oh well. Please don’t just assume things are hard just because you heard they were.

Edit 1: Also before a lot of the nerfs that took place a lot of “hard” GW1 instances could be soloed or done with maybe 1-3 heroes.

Edit 3: Alot of parts of “dungeons” and entire dungeons can still be soloed in GW1 even today.

WonderfulCT.6278:

UW, FoW, Urgoz, The Deep, DoA, Slaver’s exile (Duncan the Black is racist btw, no wonder the place is called slaver’s.) and the other dungeons were all easy. UW and FoW cost money but you made a lot more, and didn’t lose too much if the group failed assuming you were at least completing some runs.

The only areas out of all of these I never successfully completed with heroes was UW and DoA, although I have heard someone claim to have done UW (I still don’t believe him).

These areas did take coordination but you would not see people really talking about the instances before entering unless they were just doing randomway (I don’t assume everyone remembers this phrase). All that would really happen is people say their role and begin. These endgame dungeons (and elite areas) that were frequently run were done more easily than a lot of the runs that take place in GW2.

Edit 2: I just realized how big a contradiction this sentence was, oh well. Please don’t just assume things are hard just because you heard they were.

Edit 1: Also before a lot of the nerfs that took place a lot of “hard” GW1 instances could be soloed or done with maybe 1-3 heroes.

Edit 3: Alot of parts of “dungeons” and entire dungeons can still be soloed in GW1 even today.

It took a long time and many new skills for people to be able to solo gw1 dungeons though, pretty much every path of every dungeon that doesn’t require more than 1 person mechanics has already been soloed just months into Gw2.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/community/links/Compilation-of-dungeon-solo-videos-1

As far as you saying you don’t think anyone did UW with hero’s I’ve done it, Doa/mallyx also. Lots of people did. There’s one guy who did Doa w/heros on Hm in around an hour.

There is actually a guide for how to do UW with hero’s.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/7h-underworld-guide-t10480563.html

And the Doa one.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/doa-and-fow-with-heroes-t10472576.html?p=5441342#post5441342

The difference between the two games is that Gw1 Dungeons/Speedclears/Solo’s took so much more time, effort and planning to do then Gw2. Every Gw2 solo I’ve done has been first try without changing my build and no planning involved with the exception of Grawl fractal.

We need something that isn’t kitten mechanics mixed with 5x to much hp and blocks that force you to kill everything to advance. It has to be challenging for a talented player, undoable for a below average one and have a chance at a rewards worth it.

x per fection x.2096:

It took a long time and many new skills for people to be able to solo gw1 dungeons though, pretty much every path of every dungeon that doesn’t require more than 1 person mechanics has already been soloed just months into Gw2.

The difference between the two games is that Gw1 Dungeons/Speedclears/Solo’s took so much more time, effort and planning to do then Gw2. Every Gw2 solo I’ve done has been first try without changing my build and no planning involved with the exception of Grawl fractal.

We need something that isn’t kitten mechanics mixed with 5x to much hp and blocks that force you to kill everything to advance. It has to be challenging for a talented player, undoable for a below average one and have a chance at a rewards worth it.

Well 55 monks were doable in just prophecies alone and they could do a good portion of the UW if not all of it, so it didn’t really take a long time to do.

Also what do you consider a dungeon? If you are refering to EotN dungeons than you should know that was basically the end of new skills so at that point there were no new ones.

I can’t say I’m not guilty of doing this but comparing a 1 person solo of a 5 man dungeon is not the same as comparing a 1 man solo on an 8 man “dungeon”.

GW1 took more planning and sometimes required actual research but the result was that you could do content designed to be challenging without challenge in less than half the time. Topk could be soloed with just 1 sin before the sf nerf, and even after it was an easy farm.

In addition the game ended up being a lot more role based than GW2 where you literally would just sit their waiting until you got specific builds of the same class. “Need a snow? No sorry only need A/P.” Waiting for monks was fine but 8 different assassins?

I do agree that the dungeons in GW2 need an overhaul or just new ones, but just asking for them to be harder based on GW1 doesn’t make sense (GW1 wasn’t hard, but it was a really fun game). The only content I ever found difficult in GW1 was WoC hm and it wasn’t impossible I just didn’t care if I beat it.

If you all are asking for more difficult content so that we can LoS mobs to one spot and just dps them down like GW1, or remove revealed from thiefs and have them perma stealth kill things, maybe even bring back prot spirit and give it guards, or even give necros SS and MoP, or how about we stop comparing GW1 so we can have fresh new ideas cause GW1 ideas had their flaws too.

x per fection x.2096:

unknowable.8470:

Ahahaha yeah I had some guy in my party today saying “oh stack here it is easier”… -cough- it is AC, NOBODY needs to stack ANYWHERE… If someone dies in AC it is because they weren’t paying attention and made a silly mistake (happens to the best of us) or they are terrible and need to improve, even as a glass cannon it is an easy dungeon to run.

There are places that if you stack (los) it is easier and faster. Ex: pull spider queen + all adds at once up to the flame things. you don’t have to kite, you take far less damage and 1 wall of reflection protects from all adds making this much faster and easier.

Another example would be the group right after the spider queen there is a spot in the rocks where u can pull/los the group and the Scavenger will not go underground making it yet again faster and easier. Also the final boss in path 3 is much faster if you stack in the corner so it can’t knock you back.

So although you do not “need” to do these things it is much faster if you do, so before you come here trying to say someone who’s trying to make the run faster for you is bad, learn to play Sounds like you main a ranger and think your uber pro because you stand at 1200 auto attacking.

You missed the point and made a fool of yourself being a tool at the end, not bother responding further than this than to point that out -sigh-

OP, to answer your question, they are in WoW Vanilla/ BC.