Guild Wars 2

Dimished returns, that thing that most of us dungeon fanatics cringe at the thought of. I know that this topic has probably been played over one too many times but I want to take this opportunity to lay out specific angle of view and ask some questions directly to Anet.

As most people know, diminished returns was created to stop repetitive grinding of dungeons. The reasoning behind this was never very clear, but what I can guess at is that some dungeons and paths are much easier then others. When looking at the balance of time it takes to complete a path in Ascalonian Catacombs for example, it compares no where near the time to complete a path in Arah, notebly the Seer’s path or Jotun.

Well this does only make sense as the dungeons are at complete opposite ends of the level spectrum, the pay out is very similar. The real difference is just style of armor and stats, both if which offer level 80 bonuses however. The real issue comes with the payout. As most of you probably know Ascalonian Catacombs offers a generous amount of bosses that offer chests, cash loot, and bags of goods. Well Arah and other dungeons do as well, they are simply not as fast, efficient, and down right easy as Ascalonian Catacombs. All that being said, I understand why Diminished returns is inplace.

The problems with diminished returns through my point of view:

As it stands, diminished returns is linked between all dungeons, and all paths. What I mean is that we are all given a universal cool down. If I complete four DIFFERENT paths within any assortment of dungeons I will have to wait a set amount of time, a time that has not been specified by Anet as far as I know (Best guess is 2 hours), before I can happily complete another path without fear of diminished returns.

You might look at that and say ‘well that’s just fine’. That may be, but think of it like this. My group of friends and I love to do dungeons, for the fun and rewards they offer. We have easily, on various occasions, completed a 3 paths of Ascalonian catacombs in under 30 minutes. We have then been able to complete 2 paths of the Cathedral of Flames in under 20 minutes. Finally, we have recorded all 3 paths of Twilight Arbor in under 60 minutes. This does not even mention some easy paths in other dungeons like CoE (Submarine Path) and Arah (Forgotten Path).

With those times we easily hit diminished returns. The question comes down to do we really deserve too to receive less? We are completing different paths, not the same grind through one, and are following the dungeons as they were made to be aside from a few skips of running through MOBs.

Is that these dungeons are too easy? Offer too much reward for fast paths? Or have we just reached a point where we are very good at dungeons and know the tactics?

My question to Anet is simply as follows:
What was your plan for diminished return? Is it in place to put a halt on dungeon grinding even if they are different paths? Or is it not working exactly as intended?

I know that Anet is not some big evil company trying to put a set of people down (in his case dungeon grinders), but I do think the diminished returns system needs some work. Hopefully we as the players can give them balanced ideas on how to fix this issue.

Let me know what you all think!

Tl;Dr – should diminished returns take affect on dungeons even if you are grinding different paths, not just one? Should the diminished returns system be reworked or improved on? Or is it fine the way it is?

DR should only effect the first run of the path daily

60 for first completion, 20 for recurring completions until the reset per character

If I want to run all paths of a dungeon on 1 character and then do the same dungeon again on another character immediately afterward, I should be able to do this without hitting DR.

There’s no sense in shoving a pointless buffer between characters for the same dungeon path and there’s no point in putting a DR on x amount of dungeon paths in a row.

If I want to run dungeons all day, that’s my prerogative, I shouldn’t be hit with DR and forced to take a break or do something else in the game.

DR was added to prevent exploits in dungeons, something it has proven to prevent multiple times.

The collateral damage it does to regular farmers is bad but the DR system is set in stone and it won’t be changed unless something major happens in dungeon design.

You are right, discussing this subject has been done a million times before and you are just beating a dead horse.

Gab Superstar.4059:

DR was added to prevent exploits in dungeons, something it has proven to prevent multiple times.

The collateral damage it does to regular farmers is bad but the DR system is set in stone and it won’t be changed unless something major happens in dungeon design.

You are right, discussing this subject has been done a million times before and you are just beating a dead horse.

I know we are both aware that exploiting is an issue when it comes to dungeon abuse, but what about when there are no more exploits? At least none that can be used to drastically cut time. I know from first hand that they are working to crack down on it and I’m sure that very soon we will see very little to exploit within dungeons.

Negativity.5801:

DR should only effect the first run of the path daily

60 for first completion, 20 for recurring completions until the reset per character

If I want to run all paths of a dungeon on 1 character and then do the same dungeon again on another character immediately afterward, I should be able to do this without hitting DR.

There’s no sense in shoving a pointless buffer between characters for the same dungeon path and there’s no point in putting a DR on x amount of dungeon paths in a row.

If I want to run dungeons all day, that’s my prerogative, I shouldn’t be hit with DR and forced to take a break or do something else in the game.

You and I see very similarly on this topic. What you purposes may be too generous but something along those lines, regarding rewards, would be nice!

i haven’t played any other mmo’s than gw1 which never had this kind of bull****. Is DR present in other games or its kitten anet exclusivity? Not only your dungeons aren’t fun nor rewarding but you let us run it once a day… very hawt.

Considering that games like WoW or Aion make you wait hours or days before you can do certain instances another time, the existence of DR isn’t bad in that it “doesn’t exist in other games.”

However the problems I have with it is that Anet will not tell us exactly how it works, and as it stands now, I often have problems forming guild teams for dungeons because no one wants to come along because they’re “under DR” or because everyone’s DR schedules conflict.

At the moment what we’re doing is all logging on at daily reset time and then running 4 dungeon paths, and waiting 2 hours while scheduling other activities for those 2 hours like WvW or character development and then doing another 4 paths, etc

I’m not a big fan of how DR currently works. For me, I eat, breathe, and sleep dungeons whenever most of my guild goes online so I usually hit DR very often. Personally, I think DR should be dungeon-specific— as in keep the DR there for doing repeats of the same exact path over a short period of time, but the DR shouldn’t be considered if I want to run another path or even a totally different dungeon.

At the meantime, some of us have been running Fractals during our “DR Downtime” since that is not affected by DR. It keeps us a little entertained and sometimes helps the other guildies in catching up with the rest of the guild.

Power.2957:

Considering that games like WoW or Aion make you wait hours or days before you can do certain instances another time, the existence of DR isn’t bad in that it “doesn’t exist in other games.”

WoW makes you wait a week for valor reset from dungeons, and raids have a 1 week lock before you can have the instance reset, but that’s about it, and it’s to stop people farming and getting all of their stuff in such a short period. Imagine being able to run end-game raids every day? How fast would you be geared?

The gear is supposed to be ‘hard’, in a sense, to get. It’s supposed to take time and work.

DR is one of the most amazing things I think. I haven’t had an issue with it so far, in any game i’ve played. I understand why it’s there and that’s the important thing.

Raebfle.5914:

WoW makes you wait a week for valor reset from dungeons, and raids have a 1 week lock before you can have the instance reset, but that’s about it, and it’s to stop people farming and getting all of their stuff in such a short period. Imagine being able to run end-game raids every day? How fast would you be geared?

The gear is supposed to be ‘hard’, in a sense, to get. It’s supposed to take time and work.

DR is one of the most amazing things I think. I haven’t had an issue with it so far, in any game i’ve played. I understand why it’s there and that’s the important thing.

Content lock-outs makes sense in a subscription-based game. If you were to get all your gear you want, you’d cancel your subscription and resub when new content is available.

Since GW2 has no subscription fees, lockouts don’t make sense. Instead, the DR is there to slow you down in getting that skin you want for your gear. You could run that same content multiple times if you like, but you’ll be rewarded less for each subsequent run for the day.

In short, DR for running the same content over and over in one day makes sense, but DR for running multiple dungeons really don’t make much sense since the rewards for each dungeon is a different set of armor, weapons, and runes.

Fury.6281:

Tl;Dr – should diminished returns take effect on dungeons even if you are grinding different paths, not just one?

Negativity.5801:

DR should only affect the first run of the path daily

I think DR is per dungeon isn’t it? Having DR affect all dungeons isn’t how it should be. DR should apply per dungeon and even more per PATH. Make a path completely useless after the first 3 runs but don’t affect the other paths, or other dungeons.

DR is not the solution to the “grinding” problem, the solution is to start rewarding players doing all dungeons paths of a specific dungeon. Doing all 3 paths (4 for Arah) should reward a substantial bonus (tokens and/or other rewards) rather than the current absolute zero. Even more than that, rewards for those who complete ALL dungeon paths of all dungeons could be implemented to further spread the playerbase and make all paths of all dungeons viable.

DR isn’t the answer, we need more incentive in doing a variety of runs, not limiting some of them.

maddoctor.2738:

I think DR is per dungeon isn’t it? Having DR affect all dungeons isn’t how it should be. DR should apply per dungeon and even more per PATH. Make a path completely useless after the first 3 runs but don’t affect the other paths, or other dungeons.

DR is not the solution to the “grinding” problem, the solution is to start rewarding players doing all dungeons paths of a specific dungeon. Doing all 3 paths (4 for Arah) should reward a substantial bonus (tokens and/or other rewards) rather than the current absolute zero. Even more than that, rewards for those who complete ALL dungeon paths of all dungeons could be implemented to further spread the playerbase and make all paths of all dungeons viable.

DR isn’t the answer, we need more incentive in doing a variety of runs, not limiting some of them.

I really like your suggestion for a bonus for completing all of the paths. That is an awesome idea.

DR can be dodged quite easily now that we’ve fleshed out the mechanics pretty thoroughly without ANet’s help. Check out this thread. I haven’t hit DR (unless intentionally testing it) in a long time, and I still clear plenty of dungeons in 20 minutes or less. Remember to save your daily fractal runs for padding the time between your 4th run and 5th run!

Rising Dusk.2408:

DR can be dodged quite easily now that we’ve fleshed out the mechanics pretty thoroughly without ANet’s help. Check out this thread. I haven’t hit DR (unless intentionally testing it) in a long time, and I still clear plenty of dungeons in 20 minutes or less. Remember to save your daily fractal runs for padding the time between your 4th run and 5th run!

That’s like saying you can dodge the daily reset by doing a path only once a day.

Everyone knows it but it doesn’t solve anything.

I do 4 paths of whatever I feel like in 2 hours, do a fractal run for a daily, and then do 4 more paths of whatever I feel like in the next 2 hours, none of which hit DR. Whether we like it or not, DR is here to stay, so better to be informed and maximize your ability to avoid it than ignorant and complain about it when you do hit it.

Rising Dusk.2408:

I do 4 paths of whatever I feel like in 2 hours, do a fractal run for a daily, and then do 4 more paths of whatever I feel like in the next 2 hours, none of which hit DR. Whether we like it or not, DR is here to stay, so better to be informed and maximize your ability to avoid it than ignorant and complain about it when you do hit it.

The purpose of this thread is not about maximizing your ability to avoid it, but to discuss DR itself.

Maximizing your ability to avoid DR certainly constitutes as discussion related to DR. Furthermore, it’s probably the most useful time-relevant type of discussion: the type that lets you survive without suffering in the current state of the game until such time that it changes (though I highly doubt it ever will).

Fury.6281:

Tl;Dr – should diminished returns take affect on dungeons even if you are grinding different paths, not just one? Should the diminished returns system be reworked or improved on? Or is it fine the way it is?

Rising Dusk.2408:

Maximizing your ability to avoid DR certainly constitutes as discussion related to DR. Furthermore, it’s probably the most useful time-relevant type of discussion: the type that lets you survive without suffering in the current state of the game until such time that it changes (though I highly doubt it ever will).

Please just stop trying. How to circumvent DR has nothing to do with this discussion, which you would know if you had read the OP.

Ironically, my posts have contributed far more than your “please stop posting because you’re not contributing” posts have. Funny how that works out. Anyway, I’ll bite; the following is how it is relevant:

Yes, DR is important for all of the ways it is implemented right now. I have personally exploited dungeons to get quick rewards, and it has been a pleasant thing to run into a situation where I am limited by how much I can exploit by DR. It is working as intended, both cross-dungeons and within a specific dungeon. There are very few exploits anymore that bypass DR in dungeons (recent HotW exploit being one example, but they closed that), and as such DR really does its job. Because it is so easy to avoid DR, to boot, it’s hardly a hindrance to pro players if they are conscious of what they are doing and do not just spam the same dungeon back-to-back, which wouldn’t even be time effective given the +40 token bonus/path that they implemented a couple months ago (turn those tokens into Ecto if you only want cash or MF precursor attempts if the rares are too low of level). I say that DR is fine as it is, and don’t think it should change. The only time DR was an issue was before we understood its mechanics, and regardless of whether they have explained its mechanics to us, we understand it perfectly well now.

You’re supposed to be able to run the same path across different characters without hitting DR but it’s stupid that it puts a 1-2 hour buffer between doing this. If I want to run dungeons back to back on different characters I should be able to do that. IIRC, it was something like 30 or 45 tokens if you do it between characters without waiting.

Also, in my experience, if you run 5 dungeon paths within a certain time frame (Something like 2 hours) you will hit DR. This is stupid. I’ve run AC all 3 paths without skipping mobs and then done paths 1 and 2 of CoF which there really isn’t much at all to skip, and been hit with DR for it.

DR has too many constraints on really stupid things like this. There’s a reasonable level where DR can be implemented, but DR overreaches in these ways. They’re unnecessary and just a major hindrance even when you’re doing things legitimately.

I think DR should work the way I mentioned above

•60 per path daily
•20 for recurring paths
•Character specific, not account bound
•No buffer time between characters
•No limit in consecutive dungeon running

Personally, I think Anet needs to take a stronger stance on dungeon exploiting in a number of ways. Their design is weak and has been exploited for months. They need an authoritative stance on players exploiting dungeons and they need to rethink their design to further prevent it. This DR for exploitation is nonsense. It’s less than a slap on the wrists.

we did hotw path1 (thanks for ruining it btw) Ac path 1&2, SE path3, then hopped to CoF and did path 1 and then on path 2 we got 45 tokens

Don’t know why we are punished, I just got my alt to 80 today and wanted to gear her up and enjoy playing the dungeons on a new character.

Negativity.5801:

You’re supposed to be able to run the same path across different characters without hitting DR but it’s stupid that it puts a 1-2 hour buffer between doing this. If I want to run dungeons back to back on different characters I should be able to do that. IIRC, it was something like 30 or 45 tokens if you do it between characters without waiting.

If I were you I would be happy you can wait 1-2hr and swap to get 60 tokens again because when they finally find out that their system isn’t working properly (atm you can bypass it by waiting 1-2hrs) you will be getting 20 tokens ALWAYS for repeating same paths.

Also, in my experience, if you run 5 dungeon paths within a certain time frame (Something like 2 hours) you will hit DR. This is stupid. I’ve run AC all 3 paths without skipping mobs and then done paths 1 and 2 of CoF which there really isn’t much at all to skip, and been hit with DR for it.

So, you ran 5 fastest paths in the game in 2 hours when they said that average path should take about 30 minutes. You obviously meet the criteria of exploiter!

haviz.1340:

Negativity.5801:

You’re supposed to be able to run the same path across different characters without hitting DR but it’s stupid that it puts a 1-2 hour buffer between doing this. If I want to run dungeons back to back on different characters I should be able to do that. IIRC, it was something like 30 or 45 tokens if you do it between characters without waiting.

If I were you I would be happy you can wait 1-2hr and swap to get 60 tokens again because when they finally find out that their system isn’t working properly (atm you can bypass it by waiting 1-2hrs) you will be getting 20 tokens ALWAYS for repeating same paths.

Also, in my experience, if you run 5 dungeon paths within a certain time frame (Something like 2 hours) you will hit DR. This is stupid. I’ve run AC all 3 paths without skipping mobs and then done paths 1 and 2 of CoF which there really isn’t much at all to skip, and been hit with DR for it.

So, you ran 5 fastest paths in the game in 2 hours when they said that average path should take about 30 minutes. You obviously meet the criteria of exploiter!

A good group shouldn’t take 30 minutes to run a single path of AC. The trash is few and far between and doesn’t take long to kill. Don’t accuse me for exploiting dungeons and skipping things just because you can’t do it. I can admit where I have exploited, but I used this as an example because I did it legitimately and still hit DR. Hell, I don’t even pull Kohler down the stairs, I fight him up on the platform with his adds. And CoF doesn’t take long by any means. With some of my friends, CoF path 1 took about 15 minutes without skipping any mobs. CoF 2 is like 20, there isn’t even really anything to skip in 2.

And for the character swapping. I would rather have the DR conditions be clear and defined rather then have them keep it a secret for absolutely no good reason. If we’re not supposed to be able to swap characters to get full rewards then fix it. If it is intended, then I stand by my statement that the 1-2 hour buffer is pointless and completely unnecessary.

it doesn’t punish a pro, it punishes a gamer who wants to get all the goodies by playing the freaking game instead of playing the TP or spend real money on gems, that what ****** DR does.

It´s not punishing the pro, it´s punishing those farm players that just farm the easiest and fastest dungeons AND NOT DOING NOTHING like playing the game.

There are 2 DR systems
1 – CHAR DR: in this DR a char cannot repeat the same path on the same dungeon, you have to wait for daily reset.
2 – ACCOUNT DR: in this DR you can´t change your char and do the same path on the same dungeon, you have to wait a grace period of 2 hours for ACC DR resets.

So if you want to farm, do more dungeons, a PRO PLAYER can do this without being penalized. Just make some dungeons with one char, you can do 3 paths of ascalon, 2 of TA, 2 of CoF, one or two of CoE in a period of two hours, then the ACC DR reset, you change your char and do everything again. Profit.

But there are some people that are so stupid that don´t want to understand this simply answer to something simply and not some theory of conspiration about TP and make mountains of dollars for ANET.

This post is not directed to OP, just to some people here that need a resumed version.

Now to OP, if you are so PRO that you can HIT ACC DR doing all this dungeons, how about trying new dungeons and doing those more difficult?
Those days me and my guildies done path 3 of COE, and when we understand the lava destroyer we can´t understand why people whine so much about this thing…

evolverzilla.2359:

It´s not punishing the pro, it´s punishing those farm players that just farm the easiest and fastest dungeons AND NOT DOING NOTHING like playing the game.

There are 2 DR systems
1 – CHAR DR: in this DR a char cannot repeat the same path on the same dungeon, you have to wait for daily reset.
2 – ACCOUNT DR: in this DR you can´t change your char and do the same path on the same dungeon, you have to wait a grace period of 2 hours for ACC DR resets.

So if you want to farm, do more dungeons, a PRO PLAYER can do this without being penalized. Just make some dungeons with one char, you can do 3 paths of ascalon, 2 of TA, 2 of CoF, one or two of CoE in a period of two hours, then the ACC DR reset, you change your char and do everything again. Profit.

But there are some people that are so stupid that don´t want to understand this simply answer to something simply and not some theory of conspiration about TP and make mountains of dollars for ANET.

This post is not directed to OP, just to some people here that need a resumed version.

Now to OP, if you are so PRO that you can HIT ACC DR doing all this dungeons, how about trying new dungeons and doing those more difficult?
Those days me and my guildies done path 3 of COE, and when we understand the lava destroyer we can´t understand why people whine so much about this thing…

You make some good points, some that I had already stated; that some paths are easier than others. I have done the harder paths, CoE and Arah are two of my favorite dungeons. With this system however, easy paths are just as rewarding as the hard paths, so it only makes sense to do as many of those paths just to make the faster cash.

DR does its job by stopping us from grinding through the same easy paths, but it also deters us from going on to do harder paths. Who is to say that after doing some easy paths which would only take about an hour or two to get 4-5 done, I wouldn’t want to go on an do other paths? The problem is I cannot do this without now hitting DR. It is taking away rewards for the same time and effort I would put in to receive the rewards had I not had DR. Even then, if I did not mind the DR and wanted to do them just for the fun, finding a team as motivated to receive little for their efforts can be difficult and even more time consuming.

I agree with you that it is our own faults for choosing easy paths. However, I think that DR should be made path bound, where if you complete that path, you no longer get 60 tokens on that character and receive 20, 15, 10… for the attempts on that path onward, with decreasing cash rewards as well. this would allow all paths of every dungeon to be completed in a day without any fear of DR and I would say that is an accomplishment in it’s own.

I run into this problem almost everyday.. 5 dungeons are easily completed in 2 hours and of course I’m not watching the kitten clock or keeping track and then BAM DR you scumbag exploiter you!

Negativity.5801:

A good group shouldn’t take 30 minutes to run a single path of AC. The trash is few and far between and doesn’t take long to kill. Don’t accuse me for exploiting dungeons and skipping things just because you can’t do it. I can admit where I have exploited, but I used this as an example because I did it legitimately and still hit DR. Hell, I don’t even pull Kohler down the stairs, I fight him up on the platform with his adds. And CoF doesn’t take long by any means. With some of my friends, CoF path 1 took about 15 minutes without skipping any mobs. CoF 2 is like 20, there isn’t even really anything to skip in 2.

The exclamation mark at the end of sentence should have told you I was joking.

I haven’t said you exploit on daily basis, I merely stated what Anet expects of average group. And based on that expectation they put (estimated) 2 hour timer on 4 paths. If you do 5 paths in that time you gonna hih DR. CoF p1 takes about 8 minutes.

And for the character swapping. I would rather have the DR conditions be clear and defined rather then have them keep it a secret for absolutely no good reason. If we’re not supposed to be able to swap characters to get full rewards then fix it. If it is intended, then I stand by my statement that the 1-2 hour buffer is pointless and completely unnecessary.

Here is the quote from Robert:

it’s tied to the daily achievement system, which applies to all characters. This was an issue when we had our tokens soulbound, but now that they are account bound we don’t feel we need to offer the bonus first-run tokens to every character on an account.

Feel free to interpret it in anyway.

i thought you can avoid the dimishing return of different characters by completing all the path of a dungeon with one character before doing it again with another characters ?

for example :

char 1 : path 1 2 3

then

char 2 : path 1 2 3

…no ?

azizul.8469:

i thought you can avoid the dimishing return of different characters by completing all the path of a dungeon with one character before doing it again with another characters ?

for example :

char 1 : path 1 2 3

then

char 2 : path 1 2 3

…no ?

No. You can just simply wait 2hrs.

We all agree that dungeon path difficulty is vastly different, instead of making the easier paths harder, or nerfing their rewards, wouldn’t it make more sense to reward players who run all paths, or increase the rewards provided by the harder paths, instead of adding any kind of DR?

And to further expand this, add a substantial reward for finishing ALL dungeons, or at least a few different dungeons each day, that way the “less likable” dungeons will be visited more often, all paths will be cleared more often, etc.

I know I’ve posted this “idea” numerous times before but I’ll keep posting it because I believe is far better to reward extra effort, than punishing no-effort. You give incentives for players to DO something, not remove rewards when they do something else, at least that’s what I believe.

Diviner.7405:

But why have DR anymore now that supposedly majority of the bots are gone?

I do not understand what is wrong with grinding in non-subscription based game, especially this one. Since gear is cosmetic only (for now cough), what is wrong with allowing player to just grind constantly 24/7 if that is what they want to do?

And I can answer my own question: greed
Everyone is inherently greedy and Anet is no exception. They place these restrictions on the player base because they do not want anyone rich or for people to acquire what they want without going through one thing: the gem store.

At the end of the day, the reason why this stupid childish system is in place is because Anet is greedy and they want your money. They could care less about the community.

inb4anetisawesome
inb4stopplayingifyoudonotlikethesystem
inb4otherunlogicalresponses

DR isn’t for bots, it’s for exploiters. And getting 20 tokens instead of 60 isn’t DR.

maddoctor.2738:

We all agree that dungeon path difficulty is vastly different, instead of making the easier paths harder, or nerfing their rewards, wouldn’t it make more sense to reward players who run all paths, or increase the rewards provided by the harder paths, instead of adding any kind of DR?

And to further expand this, add a substantial reward for finishing ALL dungeons, or at least a few different dungeons each day, that way the “less likable” dungeons will be visited more often, all paths will be cleared more often, etc.

I know I’ve posted this “idea” numerous times before but I’ll keep posting it because I believe is far better to reward extra effort, than punishing no-effort. You give incentives for players to DO something, not remove rewards when they do something else, at least that’s what I believe.

I fully agree. A reward for choosing dungeon variety over a grind within a specific dungeon would allow for more population at some less visited dungeons (As long as the system is implemented correctly). It would certainly appeal to Anet’s standing that grinding is bad.