Guild Wars 2

Yes, it was a totally bad idea.
The player base of this game is not consistent enough, just a little part of it is really dedicated to raids.
Devs should have focused to make more dungeons regardless the crying on these forums.
Facts in time showed me ppl approaches to raids in this game are awkward/unhappy simply because they were used to another game and were expecting from the game itself everything but raids. I mean, for the past 3 years average player on here always been a casual who doesn’t want to invest too much time and get frustrated in that kind of content – blame the manifesto -, expecially if the reward doesn’t worth it: <insert long debatable story about Anet nerfing loot because it’s not healtlhy for the game economy>.

Came here because had enough about raiding (coming off other games where i was an heavy raider) and took however my – bad – turn to them since HoT was a poor xpac with basically nothing aside raids, and endless grind disguised as “content”.
Wing 1 was sorta okay, nice bosses with interesting mecchanics.
Wing 2 started to drop on level compared, feels unrefined and rushed- trio is not really a ’’boss’’ -. Mecchanics put everyone on the same lvl of responsability so if, per say, you have 2-3 ppl a bit sloppy – keep in mind what i’ve said about ‘’average player of this game" -, there’s no way to carry/cover them, which results in a more punishing system in my opinion ofc. Top guilds can dissagree all they want since they are prolly all good and nobody does mistakes :p, but I have 70LI and my own experience’s data on topic, lead me on this conclusion so far. I’ll be happy if facts will prove me wrong in the long run.
In any case, it’s palpable there’s already a lot less ppl around compared to HoT release.

Last but not least, I see quite some fanboy here trying to look at the wise man finger meanwhile he’s pointing at the moon and this really doesn’t help…

STIHL.2489:

Not to be rude, but, No. On a Positive note tho, the changes only affected veteran players, so, as a new player it will not affect you at all.

and by ‘affect’ I mean hurt.

That’s fine, I’m sure I can dig it up somewhere on my own. Thanks either way. C:

But you can understand the problem in asking for an alternate mode raid because you don’t like raids, right?

No, I honestly don’t see the problem. I mean, I can understand why you might not think that it’s worth resolving, but I don’t see the “problem.” If people don’t enjoy something about the game, it’s perfectly fair to ask for something that would resolve that. Maybe the solution would not be worth the effort, but maybe it would be. I get that you don’t agree that this would be worth doing, and that’s fine, but just respect that other people are allowed to disagree with you.

You say “I don’t enjoy needing to get gear, I don’t enjoy the difficulty or challenge level” but those are 90% of what build the raid.

They are perhaps 90% of what the current raids are about, true enough. And that’s fine. Again, I have no interest in tampering with that. But as I’ve explained, cut those bits away, and while the result would be a unit of content in which you would have absolutely ZERO interest in participating, it would be the content that I would enjoy. We discussed Pizza earlier, let’s say that a general purpose restaurant was offering pizza, but the ONLY type of pizza on the menu was a supreme pizza. Pepperoni, mushrooms, sausage, olives, tomatoes peppers, the works. Now some people like all that, and that’s great, but to some people, many of those ingredients ruin the taste of the pizza, or they might even be allergic to them. Can’t they ask for a pizza that’s just one or two of those ingredients, and hope that it’s not too much trouble for the staff to prepare? You’d still get your supreme pizza, and their cheese and pepperoni pizza would not harm yours in any way, so why is it so offensive to you that they might ask for something that tastes good to them, just because it wouldn’t taste good to you?

And there are square circles in the game, even!… They’re the open world raids and encounters! And dungeons! And fractals!

Those are in the game. And those are also not what I asked for. To continue the pizza analogy, you’ve now told me that they have spaghetti with meatballs, and also pepperoni calzone, which are both a little bit like a pepperoni pizza, but still not a pepperoni pizza.

And you don’t seem to have actually responded to why these are bad alternatives with anything but “but it takes longer!”

I think I’ve given other reasons, such as that if it is a raid that is not modeled on the current raid, then it would not be modeled on the current raid. And time Is a valid reason. If you can have the best solution relatively soon, or a worse, or even equal solution but it would only exist long into the future, sooner is better.

You keep repeating the mantra that you do not care if it takes longer, so long as it’s a better solution, but you have to balance the trade-offs. If the solution is in fact NOT the better solution, then taking longer is a double penalty. If it is a better solution, but only marginally so, then how much “longer” would be a reasonable trade-off? additional weeks, months, years? In games, time = fun, time wasted is wasted fun. I’m perfectly willing to wait for better solutions, but the improvement has to be proportional to the wait time. I’d wait in line for hours for a super fun park ride, but I wouldn’t want to wait in line for hours to ride the spinning teacups. You have no presented any solutions that would be worth additional wait time to implement.

And when I was specifically giving you advice on how to construct an easy mode, minor changes that actually create a meaningful easy mode, you responded with “nonono that’s no good”.

Present them again, I’ll go into specifics. So long as it’s basically the same as the current raid, with the same mechanics but toned down so that random pugs stand a decent chance at it, I’m open to suggestions.

I would be perfectly okay with an easy raid.
I would be perfectly okay with an alternative solo mode that lets you experience the story.
I would love for ANet to tune up dungeons and fractals to provide fixed group experiences that cater to a lower level of difficulty than the current raids. Granted, this was already my position, but y’know I’m more amenable than you think if you were to take the points I’m stuck on to heart.

As to the first two points, were these positions that you adopted in response to what I was saying, or did you at least loosely believe these things going into the discussion? If the latter then you cannot claim to have “moved closer”, you just began the conversation some distance from the extremes of the discussion, as did I. You’ll note that I came into this discussion opposed to the idea of killing off raids completely, and I remain opposed to that stance, even though others would prefer that outcome.

As for the third position, that has absolutely nothing to do with my position. I mean, do that or not, I really couldn’t care less.

These address the problems that you’ve put forward; that there’s no ‘easy’ raid or similar content to tackle,

My position was NEVER that there is not “similar content to tackle.” There’s always been similar content, I’ve always been aware of that. “Similar content” is the faux compromise constantly being offered by people who do not want to see easy mode raids become a reality. I have never sought out “similar content,” and providing additional or improved “similar content” is not a resolution to this situation. If YOU want similar content, then that can be your issue, but please stop trying to frame it as a resolution to this one.

You find many things to be lacking, if that’s the case. What’s a thing that you’ve considered and have subsequently changed your opinion on? If the answer is “no they’re all wrong” then you haven’t fairly considered a thing.

That’s faulty logic. Fairly considering something doesn’t mean that it has to change your mind on the topic. If three incorrect things are presented to you, and you change your mind on none of them, that does not indicate that you did not give each a fair hearing, it just means that you gave each a fair hearing and found each to be lacking. I mean, if I presented you with 1. 3+5=5, 2. 2+3=9, and 3. 5*9=2, then then went on to explain my reasoning behind each of those positions, it would not be a fault in your analysis that you would remain unconvinced in each case, I expect you could give each argument a fair hearing, but if you remain unmoved, then the fault may lie in the opposing arguments themselves, right?

And I’ll again remind you that you appear to have taken the same stance, holding firm to the opinions you came in with. I don’t fault you for that, so long as you discuss them in a mature manner, I don’t expect to change your mind if you have firmly held beliefs.

Go ahead. Which have merits? What are their downsides?

There have been way too many individual nuances discussed for me to go back through them now, but I gave my response to each in turn and you can review the last 24 pages for the answer to that question. If there are any specific proposals you’d like me to expand upon, reference them directly and I’ll do what I can.

Ohoni.6057:

No, I honestly don’t see the problem.

The problem with asking for a raid to fix your problem that you don’t like raids is that you’re asking for a raid to fix the raids, when you by your own admission are not the target audience of raids.

Ohoni.6057:

Those are in the game. And those are also not what I asked for. To continue the pizza analogy, you’ve now told me that they have spaghetti with meatballs, and also pepperoni calzone, which are both a little bit like a pepperoni pizza, but still not a pepperoni pizza.

I want a calzone now. I had spag bog yesterday tho, it turned out really good.

I bring up open world zones as being really important as that kind of content because consider the hypothetical situation where ANet did the opposite of what you’re suggesting now. Instead of creating easy-mode 10-man raids, what if they instead gave the existing open world fights like Vinewrath and the Breach bosses and the HoT stuff a ‘raid mode’ which was really really hard.

Now consider the reverse of that- instead of creating an easy 10-man mode raid, they create an easy open-world version of the raids. How many of the problems you have with the current raid format does that mode solve? Again, discard resources from your mind. Gaile sed so

Ohoni.6057:

I think I’ve given other reasons, such as that if it is a raid that is not modeled on the current raid, then it would not be modeled on the current raid. And time Is a valid reason. If you can have the best solution relatively soon, or a worse, or even equal solution but it would only exist long into the future, sooner is better.

If it’s the best solution then time is completely irrelevant. You should just push for it on the basis of it being da bes.

Ohoni.6057:

You keep repeating the mantra that you do not care if it takes longer, so long as it’s a better solution, but you have to balance the trade-offs. If the solution is in fact NOT the better solution, then taking longer is a double penalty. If it is a better solution, but only marginally so, then how much “longer” would be a reasonable trade-off? additional weeks, months, years? In games, time = fun, time wasted is wasted fun. I’m perfectly willing to wait for better solutions, but the improvement has to be proportional to the wait time. I’d wait in line for hours for a super fun park ride, but I wouldn’t want to wait in line for hours to ride the spinning teacups. You have no presented any solutions that would be worth additional wait time to implement.

I dunno but raids are fine as they are and I’d like dungeons to be relevant and runnable again. Getting too deep into specifics on raid resource expenditures is pointless and silly when we don’t know them. Let’s go with honest, respectful and well-intentioned and talk about what sort of thing makes for good or bad content rather than what sort of thing takes more or less time like Gaile asked us not to.

Ohoni.6057:

Present them again, I’ll go into specifics. So long as it’s basically the same as the current raid, with the same mechanics but toned down so that random pugs stand a decent chance at it, I’m open to suggestions.

Problem being that those specifications are too specific.

If you want to create a functional easy mode, keep the goals of the encounters the same but remove complications. This involves stripping mechanics.

Examples in brackets, for VG. What you should do to create a servicable easy mode is, in addition to knocking down the ‘big’ mechanics by a little (magic discharge) you remove some of the factors that complicate dealing with the big mechanics (like the sparks). Instead of proportionally reducing everything by 60%, you proportionally reduce things by 90% and flat out remove factors from the fight.

Why do you do this? You do it for two reasons:
1. The game, and all games, function based on how important mechanics are. The game is tuned around certain, big negative effects having big, negative tells, and this is a universal element across the entire game. To diminish this significantly sends mixed messages, when this should be a universal system. Massive tell has massive effects- that should be a game-wide philosophy.
2. Difficulty is a little more complex than simple numbers. From a design standpoint, consider what you would do to make things more difficult- particularly, look at Fractals. Fractals have had, and still have, the massive issue where the only thing that happens as you rise in Fractal rank is that toughness and outgoing damage go up. Why is that an issue? Because simply raising the numbers involved does not feel like a ‘fair’ or ‘interesting’ way of making things harder. Similarly, simply lowering the numbers involved is not a ‘fair’ or ‘interesting’ way of making things easier. It just means that there are a lot of things happening on the screen that have no real impact on you.

Ohoni.6057:

As to the first two points, were these positions that you adopted in response to what I was saying, or did you at least loosely believe these things going into the discussion?

Nah like I said, Astral and STIHL brought them up.

Ohoni.6057:

If the latter then you cannot claim to have “moved closer”, you just began the conversation some distance from the extremes of the discussion, as did I. You’ll note that I came into this discussion opposed to the idea of killing off raids completely, and I remain opposed to that stance, even though others would prefer that outcome.

This is just kind of evidence of you remaining obstinate. If you’re looking for a way to prove that you’re willing to compromise or change your position, saying “look at this thing that I’m not compromising or changing my position on” is kinda silly.

Ohoni.6057:

As for the third position, that has absolutely nothing to do with my position. I mean, do that or not, I really couldn’t care less.

Again because you’re not listening. And, well, frankly… My first post in this thread was, if I remember quite concisely, “raids were not a good idea with dungeons in the abysmal state they’re in”. This is a discussion about whether raids were a good idea. And if raids were a bad idea, it’s because the fallout, dungeons, is unacceptable.

Ohoni.6057:

My position was NEVER that there is not “similar content to tackle.” There’s always been similar content, I’ve always been aware of that. “Similar content” is the faux compromise constantly being offered by people who do not want to see easy mode raids become a reality. I have never sought out “similar content,” and providing additional or improved “similar content” is not a resolution to this situation. If YOU want similar content, then that can be your issue, but please stop trying to frame it as a resolution to this one.

It’s not a faux compromise, it’s an actual compromise. “Giving you everything you want” isn’t a compromise. It’s just giving you what you want.

Secondly, there’s not much of a reason to compromise. We’re not making a deal. I’m just telling you things. If you choose to take them on board or not is irrelevant since you’re not really the target audience; ANet is.

Ohoni.6057:

That’s faulty logic. Fairly considering something doesn’t mean that it has to change your mind on the topic. If three incorrect things are presented to you, and you change your mind on none of them, that does not indicate that you did not give each a fair hearing, it just means that you gave each a fair hearing and found each to be lacking. I mean, if I presented you with 1. 3+5=5, 2. 2+3=9, and 3. 5*9=2, then then went on to explain my reasoning behind each of those positions, it would not be a fault in your analysis that you would remain unconvinced in each case, I expect you could give each argument a fair hearing, but if you remain unmoved, then the fault may lie in the opposing arguments themselves, right?

You’ve had 24 pages in this thread and what, 20 in the other thread, of opinions. Do you really think you’re that spotless?

Ohoni.6057:

And I’ll again remind you that you appear to have taken the same stance, holding firm to the opinions you came in with. I don’t fault you for that, so long as you discuss them in a mature manner, I don’t expect to change your mind if you have firmly held beliefs.

It’s not a matter of belief. It’s a matter of evidence. If there’s evidence to prove that the status quo has to change, then I’m more than happy to change my position. But, well… Raids have met or exceeded their target participation rates. They are contributing to player retention and ANet is overall considering them a resounding success. Don’t fix what ain’t broken. What is broken are dungeons+fractals, and the current content drought, and WvW. They’ve struck on a good thing by all internal accounts; there’s no reason to screw it up by messing with the formula.

Like, really. That’s the end of the line of the entire issue. “Were raids in GW2 a bad idea?” By all internal metrics, no. If we’re to take them at their word, they’re punching above their weight.

Ohoni.6057:

There have been way too many individual nuances discussed for me to go back through them now, but I gave my response to each in turn and you can review the last 24 pages for the answer to that question. If there are any specific proposals you’d like me to expand upon, reference them directly and I’ll do what I can.

-Alternate raids with lower tuning
-Solo story mode
-Dungeon mode for the raids
-Revised dungeons to provide alternate small fixed-group content

Ohoni.6057:

I think this thread can be boiled down to: if you told me everything easy mode raiders wanted in the abstract, the answer would be fractals and dungeons.

The answer for you, perhaps, but not for them, and since you’re content with what we already have, the answer for you is of less importance.

So the only two main points of contention: the content itself is not the same, and legendary armor.

Yes, which like saying that the main contention in a food item is whether it tastes any good. True, obvious, and more important than other factors in the discussion.

As for matching the exact content, I think we can fairly quickly dismiss this argument, as no other content, other than fractals and infantile mode, is like this. There’s no watered down lupi, aether path, triple trouble, or teq.

Except for SAB and Fractals, yes. And also story mode chapters with Challenge motes. And Queen’s Gauntlet bosses with gambits. But aside from those, there’s no difficulty setting on any activities in the game, so if only 3-4 parts of the game have difficulty scaling, why should a 5th?

I really think that more dungeons and fractals is far superior to easy mode raids. What are the counter arguments against them again? That it’s not the exact same content as raids? That seems like a ridiculous argument to me, as most content in this game is at a single difficultly level.

I’m not sure a consider challenge motes akin to an easy/hard mode, as there’s generally no incentive to run them again. Also, I’m not sure if you’re aware, but most raid bosses have a challenge/achievement tied to them.

The gambits on the Queens gauntlet is well taken. Still, there was no easy mode liadri.

Edit: As for compromise, I think there’s no reason to compromise with a bad idea.

Absurdo.8309:

The gambits on the Queens gauntlet is well taken. Still, there was no easy mode liadri.

This is a good point. Gambits always raised the difficulty. Raising the difficulty is a good thing, but gambits are modifiers on a baseline, and if the baseline is junk, the gambit won’t fix it. There were tons of bosses other than Liadri that you could use Gambits on to get your achievements and you’d do something tricky to completely nullify the Gambit. I remember there was a sniper boss in particular that was trivially easy if you had the reflects/aegis to counter it.

For those asking for the current legendary armor to be made more accessible, ANet will not be doing that (I can say this safely). The Forsaken Thicket legendary armor is a big component of encouraging players to get better at the game and tackle raids, and ANet recognizes that. That would be like making the PvP back piece legendary more accessible to PvP players who can’t progress past Emerald, which they simply won’t do in order to encourage devotion to the game mode.

randomguy.1283:

Wait are you saying they’re going to stop making raids after the third wing all the way until the next expansion? This is NOT what we were told and I’m very disappointed to hear this, but with the whole legendary weapons thing I guess I can’t say I’m completely surprised.

The plan has always been thus:

• One complete raid per expansion.
• Each raid contains three raid wings, each delivered within ~3 months of one-another.

I think it’s possible some people (yourself included) may have taken “a new raid wing delivered every 3 months” to mean that a second full raid would be coming with Heart of Thorns, but that is not the case to my knowledge.

Rising Dusk.2408:

• One complete raid per expansion.
• Each raid contains three raid wings, each delivered within ~3 months of one-another.

That’s very interesting. I was curious about whether we’d be seeing 3 “front” wings, with one “finale” wing behind the first two, but that’s really interesting to see as I’d never seen anything conclusive. Thanks for the heads up!

Rising Dusk.2408:

For those asking for the current legendary armor to be made more accessible, ANet will not be doing that (I can say this safely). The Forsaken Thicket legendary armor is a big component of encouraging players to get better at the game and tackle raids, and ANet recognizes that. That would be like making the PvP back piece legendary more accessible to PvP players who can’t progress past Emerald, which they simply won’t do in order to encourage devotion to the game mode.

randomguy.1283:

Wait are you saying they’re going to stop making raids after the third wing all the way until the next expansion? This is NOT what we were told and I’m very disappointed to hear this, but with the whole legendary weapons thing I guess I can’t say I’m completely surprised.

The plan has always been thus:

• One complete raid per expansion.
• Each raid contains three raid wings, each delivered within ~3 months of one-another.

I think it’s possible some people (yourself included) may have taken “a new raid wing delivered every 3 months” to mean that a second full raid would be coming with Heart of Thorns, but that is not the case to my knowledge.

Very interesting things to read (both good and bad…).
I’m happy that the legendary armor will stay behind raid to motivate people to get better, but I’m a little disappointed if no more wings are added (but maybe fractals and dungeon will compensate this)

Anyway, thx for the précisions

Hypairion.9210:

I’m happy that the legendary armor will stay behind raid to motivate people to get better, but I’m a little disappointed if no more wings are added (but maybe fractals and dungeon will compensate this)

We still have one more wing to get in the June time frame, which is pretty exciting. We’re also definitely getting new Fractal(s) before the end of the year. They’re working on them one-at-a-time, and I think we’ll see the first new one either in the summer seasonal patch (July) or the fall seasonal patch (October). It depends on how quickly they move. Either way I think for instanced PvE content we have a pretty good pipeline of new content coming up not even considering the eventual second expansion.

Rising Dusk.2408:

The plan has always been thus:

• One complete raid per expansion.
• Each raid contains three raid wings, each delivered within ~3 months of one-another.

I think it’s possible some people (yourself included) may have taken “a new raid wing delivered every 3 months” to mean that a second full raid would be coming with Heart of Thorns, but that is not the case to my knowledge.

as far as i remember they said up to 6 raid wings per year would be possible. so where did you get the information from that the plan is only one full raid in HoT?

if that is true tho -> RIP gw2.

Sarrs.4831:

Torolan.5816:

If this turns out to be true and Anet continues to devote so much time to raids as they do right now(in output, not in dev time)

The only reason we’re seeing ‘so much’ of the raids (we aren’t, 6 bosses in 5 months is pretty average) is because they were one of the only teams which was continuing to develop content after the launch of the expansion. The entire issue is the development pipeline around HoT was a complete full tilt from LS content to expansion content; that tilt caused the first 8 month content drought, and the tilt back from expansion content to LS content has caused the last 8 months. Blaming the raid dev team like this is a lazy scapegoat.

Therefore I wrote in output, not in dev time. I don´t really care if the number of bosses is poor, average or good to be honest, I think that the raid team does a good enough job to make raiders satisfied. But that does not help me in any way. As a matter of fact, Anet has only thrown me some morsels over the last 16 months as you say, and my patience with them is starting to run low.

So if they stay this way like Rising Dusk suggests, it is their way of showing me the door, at least for the foreseeable future.

I always wanted raids, but I wanted them like the GW 1 elite areas with more sophisticated boss designs. Sure we got the more sophisticated boss designs, but we didnt get what made the elite areas in GW 1 so special and close to my/our hearts.

In those elite areas you wiped – for example- because you got overun by adds.
And then you have an interesting situation to deal with. Do you need more aoe dmg, more single target spike dmg, more protection, more heals, more support, a flesh/spirit wall, a tank, an imbagon, even an obsidian flesh tank with bonds? The possiblities seemed endless. This made the GW 1 elite areas so special. You got an experience you got nowhere else. In GW 2 on the other hands with the timers and everything, you are pushed into a stricter meta.

So I think raids are a great idea, but make them closer to the GW 1 elite area experience.

NoTrigger.8396:

as far as i remember they said up to 6 raid wings per year would be possible. so where did you get the information from that the plan is only one full raid in HoT?

if that is true tho -> RIP gw2.

When they said that, they made it sound like that was a pace they operate at. It’s possible there could be another raid lumped in with LW3 or something, and that’s why they don’t treat it directly as “part of HoT”, but it’s anyone’s guess at this point. I think my previous posts maybe sounded a little too much of “this is how it is” and less of “this is how I understand it”, which is more accurate. I do not have any special information about their development cycle for raids.

I would rather have new dungeons, easier to get parties together n such. Raids are ok I guess.

Nope, i think raid has been a GOOD idea and at the moment, they are the only reason that keep me to log anymore in this game.

The BAD idea has been releasing hot with just raid without adding any new doungeons, as other game, as wow, do (2 raid, 6 doungeon on last exp).

So now, we have people who had nothing (those who don’t like raid) that complain about content enjoyed from those who had something (people who like raid).

As a player of the 1st hour of gw2 i’ve already seen this happening.

If you’d go back of 1,5 year in this forum you could see that the majority of people was saying exactly the same thing as now on istance.

We had some people complaining about anet because at fist they didnt announced any new doungeon in hot and we had the biggest part of the community who was (weirdly) happy about that.

This forum was filled of people that was swearing that the biggest part of the community of gw2 was not interested in instace, that this game was not made for doungeon, and that was good to have anet focus on other thing.

Result?

We had hot with no istance, and tons of people complaining about that.

And now we have, again, people complaining about a content they don’t enjoy rather than asking anet to add the content they enjoy.

People never learn, and gw2 community seem like to learn even less than average.

If you want to see this game to grow up (even if too late i suppose) you should ask to ADD the contents you enjoy rather than whining to remove content you don’t like.

Till people won’t learn that this game will fall and fall and fall till the end.

End that is not far tho.

In before i don’t like sab.

But i understand people who like it so it’s really far from my mind to ask to remove sab.

I don’t like sab = i don’t go there.

I like fotm instead. So i ask anet to fix them up and add new ones.

Do the same here.

The problem with asking for a raid to fix your problem that you don’t like raids is that you’re asking for a raid to fix the raids, when you by your own admission are not the target audience of raids.

And? How is that a problem? I’m not the target audience of the existing raids, which is why I’m making no suggestions that would alter them in any way. I would be the target audience for the alternative version of the raids that I am suggesting though. That is a thing that I want to play, which is why I’m suggesting it. If I were the target audience for the current raids, then I wouldn’t need anything different than what is currently being offered, so to say that I shouldn’t have any suggestions involving raids unless I’m already a serious raider is a bit of a logical tautology.

I bring up open world zones as being really important as that kind of content because consider the hypothetical situation where ANet did the opposite of what you’re suggesting now. Instead of creating easy-mode 10-man raids, what if they instead gave the existing open world fights like Vinewrath and the Breach bosses and the HoT stuff a ‘raid mode’ which was really really hard.

They already did that with Tequatl (which they subsequently nerfed a bit, but it’s still harder than it was).

My response to that is that I do not like it, because open world content is something everyone has to share, you can’t “opt into it” like with a raid instance. I mean, if there’s easy mode and hard mode raids, then the ones who want hard mode can choose hard mode, and easy can choose easy, without forcing other players into your choice.

But I don’t at all object to them adding optional open world challenge modes. They already have the tools for it with guild-activated world boss flags. So perhaps they could add a mechanism in which Tequatl spawns every three hours or so, and every time he does, it’s the current version of the boss, but at any time outside that window, a guild came along and decided to drop a “hard mode” flag, they could do so, and it would summon a “hard mode” version of the boss that would require more tightly managed mechanics, well UI flagged so that randos on the map wouldn’t stumble into it unawares.

That’s fine. I have no problem with options.

Now consider the reverse of that- instead of creating an easy 10-man mode raid, they create an easy open-world version of the raids. How many of the problems you have with the current raid format does that mode solve? Again, discard resources from your mind. Gaile sed so

I think an open world version of the raids would be pretty neat, but I don’t see how a lot of the mechanics would translate to having dozens of people around, or having fewer than ten if you were playing at odd hours and most of the map was on a different part of it. I’d suggested someplace else that it would be nifty if they offered a “post-raid” Forsaken Thicket open world map, same structures but entirely different mobs, and that would still be a good idea I think, but it’s not a substitute for an easy mode raid, it’s a supplement to it.

and again, time must ALWAYS be considered. It’d be like asking someone “what would you like to see in a car, cost is not a factor.” Well no, cost is a factor, because if you design my perfect car but it ends up costing $300k then I’ll never be able to drive it. Time is not the only factor here, but it must ALWAYS be factored into the discussion, because while we don’t want a bad solution just because it’s the fastest, we also wouldn’t want any solutions that would take years to implement, because that’s years without any solution at all. We always need to balance outcomes against time. The old saying is that you can have something fast, cheap, or good, pick two. I think the ideal solution is something that’s not any of those three to the max, but a good balance of all three.

If it’s the best solution then time is completely irrelevant. You should just push for it on the basis of it being da bes.

It being achievable in a short period of time is one of the reasons it’s the best. Not having to wait as long to be able to play it, not hoarding developer’s attention for longer than is absolutely necessary, these are strong selling points for any idea, whereas long delays before it could be played or an inappropriate amount of developer time sunk into an idea are strong reasons not to do something. You might not care about these factors, but that is not normal. We live in a universe where each person if given finite time on this Earth. Time is a precious resource, and must be treated as such.

I dunno but raids are fine as they are and I’d like dungeons to be relevant and runnable again.

I’m aware, as you keep bringing it up, but it’s not relevant to the topic at hand. I have plenty of opinions on aspects of the game that have nothing to do with raids, but I don’t raise them in this thread, because that is called “off topic.”

If you want to create a functional easy mode, keep the goals of the encounters the same but remove complications. This involves stripping mechanics.

Examples in brackets, for VG. What you should do to create a servicable easy mode is, in addition to knocking down the ‘big’ mechanics by a little (magic discharge) you remove some of the factors that complicate dealing with the big mechanics (like the sparks). Instead of proportionally reducing everything by 60%, you proportionally reduce things by 90% and flat out remove factors from the fight.

Why do you do this? You do it for two reasons:
1. The game, and all games, function based on how important mechanics are. The game is tuned around certain, big negative effects having big, negative tells, and this is a universal element across the entire game. To diminish this significantly sends mixed messages, when this should be a universal system. Massive tell has massive effects- that should be a game-wide philosophy.
2. Difficulty is a little more complex than simple numbers. From a design standpoint, consider what you would do to make things more difficult- particularly, look at Fractals. Fractals have had, and still have, the massive issue where the only thing that happens as you rise in Fractal rank is that toughness and outgoing damage go up. Why is that an issue? Because simply raising the numbers involved does not feel like a ‘fair’ or ‘interesting’ way of making things harder. Similarly, simply lowering the numbers involved is not a ‘fair’ or ‘interesting’ way of making things easier. It just means that there are a lot of things happening on the screen that have no real impact on you.

That’s one way to do an easy mode, but it’s not the one I would want to play. I mean, “easy mode” is a shorthand, but if we get into specifics about the gameplay details that I’m looking for, the core factors are these:

1. That I get to participate 1:1 in the mechanics of the original hard mode versions. That if I successful dodge Sabetha’s wall in easy mode, then had I been in hard mode, I would also have dodged it. I would like to have the experience that if I manage to perfectly nail every element in the easy mode, then if that run had been “mocapped” and exported to hard mode (and all other players had done equally well, of course), I would have cleared hard mode too.

2. That if I do happen to screw up a mechanic, any mechanic, it will never lead to an auto-wipe. It should be possibly to wipe, but only after several significant failures in short order, similar to other encounters in the game. Most “you messed up” situations should be recoverable so long as the general trend of the fight is getting more things right than wrong. I absolutely cannot handle mechanics involving OHKO or other high pressure penalties.

So basically, suggestions of “oh, we’ll remove these mechanics,” or “we’ll leave in that OHKO attack, but make it way easier to avoid,” neither of these things interest me or make me more likely to play that content. If there are OHKOs, then there are OHKO,s whether they are easier to avoid or not. If the mechanics are different then they are different, so being able to successfully avoid them doesn’t hold the same appeal to me. Everything is a matter of degrees, and there are things I could still like about the mode you’re describing, but it would fall well short of what I would actually want to play.

It’s not a faux compromise, it’s an actual compromise. “Giving you everything you want” isn’t a compromise. It’s just giving you what you want.

Again, what I’m asking for is the compromise position, with “remove raids entirely” being the non-compromise, just as “no easy mode raids” is the opposing non-compromise. Don’t expect me to compromise on the compromise just because I started the negotiation from the center.

You’ve had 24 pages in this thread and what, 20 in the other thread, of opinions. Do you really think you’re that spotless?

All I can say is that you’ve accused me of not giving opposing views fair consideration, and that is not true. I have given all opposing views their due consideration, and if that has not swayed my position on the matter, that is down to the weakness of those views, not to me not considering them.

It’s not a matter of belief. It’s a matter of evidence. If there’s evidence to prove that the status quo has to change, then I’m more than happy to change my position.

Neither of us is in any position to gather any such evidence, so demands for “evidence” on either side is a pointless distraction. ANet are the only ones capable of gathering meaningful evidence, and presumably have done so, and will use that to decide whether change is necessary. So if they run the numbers and see no change is necessary, then my whole argument is moot. We can agree on that. And if they run the numbers and don’t like what they’re seeing, then your “you have no evidence that there’s anything wrong” point is moot. Something would be wrong and they would want to do something to fix it.

So this entire discussion revolves around that potentiality, IF something IS wrong, what to do about it? I’ve offered my recommendations, you can offer yours, and we can discuss the strengths and weaknesses of each.

What is broken are dungeons+fractals, and the current content drought, and WvW.

Ok, and maybe those points are worth addressing, but in a different thread that is on those topics.

Like, really. That’s the end of the line of the entire issue. “Were raids in GW2 a bad idea?” By all internal metrics, no. If we’re to take them at their word, they’re punching above their weight.

They liked the NPE too.

-Alternate raids with lower tuning
-Solo story mode
-Dungeon mode for the raids
-Revised dungeons to provide alternate small fixed-group content

1. Interesting, still lacking the mechanics of the original raids, would pull too many resources away form other projects and take too long to implement, which may not matter to you, but does to me.
2. Also could be interesting, but same issues as #1.
3. Don’t really see the point. Dropping them from 10 to 5 players? Why not just keep it at 10 players? They would have to alter mechanics so there is less role redundancy, which would add time and effort and change the feel of the encounters for no real benefits.
4. That is a thing which could be good, but has no impact on the discussion at hand.

I really think that more dungeons and fractals is far superior to easy mode raids. What are the counter arguments against them again? That it’s not the exact same content as raids? That seems like a ridiculous argument to me, as most content in this game is at a single difficultly level.

But again, some content, including the fractals you seem to like, do come in multiple difficulties. I think multiple difficulties are good, because it lets players experience the content, even if the mechanics of the hardest version are too stressful for them.

Not to mention that new dungeons and fractals would take considerably more time and effort to produce than what I’m suggesting here, meaning more time and effort removed from other parts of the game.

I’m not sure a consider challenge motes akin to an easy/hard mode, as there’s generally no incentive to run them again. Also, I’m not sure if you’re aware, but most raid bosses have a challenge/achievement tied to them.

I raised the challenge motes as an example because they were a toggled difficulty. Not just “do the encounter normally, only don’t get hit by X,” but rather “press this button and the encounter behaves very differently.” It is a difficulty setting beyond just paying more attention to the base mechanics.

The gambits on the Queens gauntlet is well taken. Still, there was no easy mode liadri.

So you support multiple difficulties when they only scale things to be harder, making them more fun for you, but not when they scale things to be easier, making them more fun for others. Fair enough.

The Forsaken Thicket legendary armor is a big component of encouraging players to get better at the game and tackle raids, and ANet recognizes that.

This is not a virtue. Players should not me encouraged to get better at the game or tackle raids if that is not how they enjoy playing the game.

Rising Dusk.2408:

For those asking for the current legendary armor to be made more accessible, ANet will not be doing that (I can say this safely). The Forsaken Thicket legendary armor is a big component of encouraging players to get better at the game and tackle raids, and ANet recognizes that. That would be like making the PvP back piece legendary more accessible to PvP players who can’t progress past Emerald, which they simply won’t do in order to encourage devotion to the game mode.

“Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun”
Now I feel more and more GW2 turning into a definitely not that kind of game like it was promised to be, kind of game I paid for back in 2012. Retiring from raiding and leaving wow raids behind just to be caught by them again, in a game that promised to NOT be a wow-like game, what a surprise. Sadly, pretty unpleasant one.

@rednik You are still not forced to play raids if you don’t want to

Rednik.3809:

Rising Dusk.2408:

For those asking for the current legendary armor to be made more accessible, ANet will not be doing that (I can say this safely). The Forsaken Thicket legendary armor is a big component of encouraging players to get better at the game and tackle raids, and ANet recognizes that. That would be like making the PvP back piece legendary more accessible to PvP players who can’t progress past Emerald, which they simply won’t do in order to encourage devotion to the game mode.

“Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun”
Now I feel more and more GW2 turning into a definitely not that kind of game like it was promised to be, kind of game I paid for back in 2012. Retiring from raiding and leaving wow raids behind just to be caught by them again, in a game that promised to NOT be a wow-like game, what a surprise. Sadly, pretty unpleasant one.

It still doesn’t fall into the wow trap…..

If you’re a “casual” player you’ll have no need for Legendary armor, it’s not statistically better than ascended. If you want to raid, you can. If you want to work toward a long term goal in Legendary Armor, you can. It doesn’t have any impact on you as a player. The worst it does is make you feel like you should give content a shot, and that is no different than any other content piece with unique rewards.

If you’re a “casual” player you’ll have no need for Legendary armor, it’s not statistically better than ascended.

I’ve heard the same arguments made in progression games, that “if you don’t want to raid then you don’t need raid armor because those stats are unnecessary outside of raiding.”

Let’s please just permanently retire the “you don’t need X” argument.

It’s a game, if people want something then whether or not they “need” it is irrelevant, you don’t “need” anything in a game. If players want it then they have as much right to want it as anyone else does, and deserve a reasonable path to earning it.

Ohoni.6057:

If you’re a “casual” player you’ll have no need for Legendary armor, it’s not statistically better than ascended.

I’ve heard the same arguments made in progression games, that “if you don’t want to raid then you don’t need raid armor because those stats are unnecessary outside of raiding.”

Let’s please just permanently retire the “you don’t need X” argument.

It’s a game, if people want something then whether or not they “need” it is irrelevant, you don’t “need” anything in a game. If players want it then they have as much right to want it as anyone else does, and deserve a reasonable path to earning it.

Im really trying to relate but if this isnt just plain entitlement idk what is.

Ohoni.6057:

If you’re a “casual” player you’ll have no need for Legendary armor, it’s not statistically better than ascended.

I’ve heard the same arguments made in progression games, that “if you don’t want to raid then you don’t need raid armor because those stats are unnecessary outside of raiding.”

Let’s please just permanently retire the “you don’t need X” argument.

It’s a game, if people want something then whether or not they “need” it is irrelevant, you don’t “need” anything in a game. If players want it then they have as much right to want it as anyone else does, and deserve a reasonable path to earning it.

I too like to play the semantics game and ignore the point.

Dear lord. Here let me rephrase this for you.
Legendary Armor is statistically the same as Ascended gear and is as such not required and does not fall into the gear grind treadmill. Anyone seeking said items are doing so not out of necessity but out of a desire to have a shiny and as such since it is not a compulsory item should play the content that rewards its if they so want it. Anyone complaining that they cannot get said item’s should henceforth be ignored as they themselves have stated it’s not needed thus it should not be added to further areas of gameplay because it is not a necessity and because of this developers need not waste time on frivolous projects.

Are you entertained now ?

Im really trying to relate but if this isnt just plain entitlement idk what is.

Yes, that’s the problem, people who raid feeling they are entitled to nicer things than those that do not.

egendary Armor is statistically the same as Ascended gear and is as such not required and does not fall into the gear grind treadmill. Anyone seeking said items are doing so not out of necessity but out of a desire to have a shiny and as such since it is not a compulsory item should play the content that rewards its if they so want it. Anyone complaining that they cannot get said item’s should henceforth be ignored as they themselves have stated it’s not needed thus it should not be added to further areas of gameplay because it is not a necessity and because of this developers need not waste time on frivolous projects.

Yes, but it’s a game. Nothing is needed, everything is a want, and everyone’s wants are equal. Players who want to raid and want to have Legendary armor deserve to be happy, but players who don’t want to raid and want Legendary armor are EQUALLY deserving to be happy. It’s not difficult.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, but it’s a game. Nothing is needed, everything is a want, and everyone’s wants are equal. Players who want to raid and want to have Legendary armor deserve to be happy, but players who don’t want to raid and want Legendary armor are EQUALLY deserving to be happy. It’s not difficult.

You’re right, nothing is needed. So everything you’ve been stated is nothing more than a pipedream aimed at a selfserving nature from the desire to get Legendary Armor without putting in the same effort others in the game (Where nothing is needed mind you) currently are.

So why should anyone do anything you propose as it’s not needed. Clearly that would be a bigger waste of developer resources than lets say the suspended Legendary Weapons program.

Ohoni.6057:

Sarrs, I really think you’ve moved beyond any sort of constructive discussion, and I don’t think it’s healthy for me to continue enabling you. Either start over and come at this from a place of honest, respectful, and well intentioned discourse, or do yourself a favor and take some time out.

The irony in this statement is kittening hilarious

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, that’s the problem, people who raid feeling they are entitled to nicer things than those that do not.

This entire topic is you complaining that you’re entitled to rewards that you don’t want to earn

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, that’s the problem, people who raid feeling they are entitled to nicer things than those that do not.

Actually not the case. Not nicer, not better, just different. Putting a clock in the side of a teapot doesn’t make it nicer and adding an essentially useless stat swap function to ascended doesn’t either.

Even if the, “things,” were nicer it is not players who have decided that those playing the raid would be entitled to the nicer things, its Anet. The player(s) expressing a feeling that they are entitled to something is, well, you (and a few others).

Ohoni.6057:

If players want it then they have as much right to want it as anyone else does, and deserve a reasonable path to earning it.

Luckily just such a reasonable path exists for those who really want, “it.”

Ashen.2907:

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, that’s the problem, people who raid feeling they are entitled to nicer things than those that do not.

Actually not the case. Not nicer, not better, just different. Putting a clock in the side of a teapot doesn’t make it nicer and adding an essentially useless stat swap function to ascended doesn’t either.

Even if the, “things,” were nicer it is not players who have decided that those playing the raid would be entitled to the nicer things, its Anet. The player(s) expressing a feeling that they are entitled to something is, well, you (and a few others).

Ohoni.6057:

If players want it then they have as much right to want it as anyone else does, and deserve a reasonable path to earning it.

Luckily just such a reasonable path exists for those who really want, “it.”

I think something everyone is missing is that ALL of these players CAN get the armor still IF they just take the time to actually go and do raids.

Rednik.3809:

“Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun”
Now I feel more and more GW2 turning into a definitely not that kind of game like it was promised to be, kind of game I paid for back in 2012. Retiring from raiding and leaving wow raids behind just to be caught by them again, in a game that promised to NOT be a wow-like game, what a surprise. Sadly, pretty unpleasant one.

This topic is about, if Raids were a good idea. I feel, like you, that they were not, because they go against the very nature of the game before HoT. Exactly like you expressed.

But here is something to ponder, some of the proponents of raids on this topic, are people that admitted they left WoW, because they could not keep up with the demands to Raid in that game.

This entire topic is you complaining that you’re entitled to rewards that you don’t want to earn

Not true. I’ve stressed time and again that I want to earn them, I just want a method of earning them that does not involve hard mode raiding, because that is an activity that does not appeal to me. Some people enjoy hard mode raiding, and that’s great for them, they can earn Legendary armor and have fun doing it. I can’t have fun doing that, but there are plenty of other parts of the game that I enjoy as much as raiders enjoy raiding, so I’d like to be able to earn the Legendary armor by doing those activities instead.

You can disagree with me without slandering me.

Actually not the case. Not nicer, not better, just different.

But “nicer” and “better” are both subjective. It’s impossible to have “different” without ALSO being “nicer” and “better” in some people’s eyes. But let’s put your point to the test here. Let’s say raiders did get Legendary armor that was merely “different” than other armor, not nicer, not better, just “different.” Let’s say it was all just the most simple geometric solids possible, each piece made of 1-2 rectangular bricks, with a general shape like it was made out of cardboard boxes, and had a neon green color to it that could not be changed. Beauty is subjective, but many would classify it as “ugly.” But it would be “different” than any other armor, and ONLY raiders could acquire it. Do you believe that would be a sufficient reward that raiders would welcome in open arms, or do you believe that they would expect the raid armor to be very fancy and shiny and something that a player might want to wear whether they enjoy raiding or not?

Even if the, “things,” were nicer it is not players who have decided that those playing the raid would be entitled to the nicer things, its Anet.

For the time being, but raiders seem to accept this as a matter of course, and belligerently object to any suggestion of that changing. Defending the status quo over alternatives IS taking a position, it is not being more reasonable than those asking for a change.

Luckily just such a reasonable path exists for those who really want, “it.”

To many players, the existing options are not reasonable, and never will be. There will need to be alternate paths for there to be reasonable options for most players.

I think something everyone is missing is that ALL of these players CAN get the armor still IF they just take the time to actually go and do raids.

Yes, but that is not a reasonable option for many. “You can do it if you do raids” is never going to be a satisfactory response, and we would save a lot of pages of discussion if everyone would just understand that.

Ohoni.6057:

This entire topic is you complaining that you’re entitled to rewards that you don’t want to earn

Not true. I’ve stressed time and again that I want to earn them, I just want a method of earning them that does not involve hard mode raiding, because that is an activity that does not appeal to me. Some people enjoy hard mode raiding, and that’s great for them, they can earn Legendary armor and have fun doing it. I can’t have fun doing that, but there are plenty of other parts of the game that I enjoy as much as raiders enjoy raiding, so I’d like to be able to earn the Legendary armor by doing those activities instead.

You can disagree with me without slandering me.

Actually not the case. Not nicer, not better, just different.

But “nicer” and “better” are both subjective. It’s impossible to have “different” without ALSO being “nicer” and “better” in some people’s eyes. But let’s put your point to the test here. Let’s say raiders did get Legendary armor that was merely “different” than other armor, not nicer, not better, just “different.” Let’s say it was all just the most simple geometric solids possible, each piece made of 1-2 rectangular bricks, with a general shape like it was made out of cardboard boxes, and had a neon green color to it that could not be changed. Beauty is subjective, but many would classify it as “ugly.” But it would be “different” than any other armor, and ONLY raiders could acquire it. Do you believe that would be a sufficient reward that raiders would welcome in open arms, or do you believe that they would expect the raid armor to be very fancy and shiny and something that a player might want to wear whether they enjoy raiding or not?

Even if the, “things,” were nicer it is not players who have decided that those playing the raid would be entitled to the nicer things, its Anet.

For the time being, but raiders seem to accept this as a matter of course, and belligerently object to any suggestion of that changing. Defending the status quo over alternatives IS taking a position, it is not being more reasonable than those asking for a change.

Luckily just such a reasonable path exists for those who really want, “it.”

To many players, the existing options are not reasonable, and never will be. There will need to be alternate paths for there to be reasonable options for most players.

I think something everyone is missing is that ALL of these players CAN get the armor still IF they just take the time to actually go and do raids.

Yes, but that is not a reasonable option for many. “You can do it if you do raids” is never going to be a satisfactory response, and we would save a lot of pages of discussion if everyone would just understand that.

Then farm the gold somewhere else and buy the raids.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, but that is not a reasonable option for many. “You can do it if you do raids” is never going to be a satisfactory response, and we would save a lot of pages of discussion if everyone would just understand that.

How is this not reasonable ?
If you want something, do the activity that has it.

If anything the unreasonable request being made is for Anet to 180 at the behest of a very vocal minority of players who didn’t read the blogpost where in it explicitly stated Legendary Armor is a reward of Raiding, and that Raiding is their vision of the Ultimate End Game Challenging group content.

Sorry, you feel obligated to have every piece of content cater to you, but you need a harsh reality check. This is very much a themepark MMO, there’s something out there for everyone, but not everything is for everyone. In your case it just so happens to be Legendary Armor that isn’t for you. You have two options, acknowledge it’s not and move on, or do the content.

Ohoni.6057:

Not true. I’ve stressed time and again that I want to earn them, I just want a method of earning them that does not involve hard mode raiding, because that is an activity that does not appeal to me. Some people enjoy hard mode raiding, and that’s great for them, they can earn Legendary armor and have fun doing it. I can’t have fun doing that, but there are plenty of other parts of the game that I enjoy as much as raiders enjoy raiding, so I’d like to be able to earn the Legendary armor by doing those activities instead.

You want legendary armor to be obtained via easymode raids where any random group of people can complete them with any phiw builds with a minimum of failures. That’s not earning legendary armor, it’s turning it into a participation reward.

Ohoni.6057:

You can disagree with me without slandering me.

There’s no slander here, just a statement of facts.

randomguy.1283:

Then farm the gold somewhere else and buy the raids.

This actually isn’t a terrible idea and it will be even easier then your easymode raids. It’s perfect!

Then farm the gold somewhere else and buy the raids.

Sorry, perhaps I was a bit too brief earlier. “Yes, that’s the problem, people who raid feeling they are entitled to nicer things than those that do not. . . OR to be paid gold by those who do not.”

In either case it’s pretty sickening.

How is this not reasonable ?
If you want something, do the activity that has it.

but in this case, the activity in question is unreasonable to a great many players, so expecting players to do it is unreasonable.

This is very much a themepark MMO, there’s something out there for everyone, but not everything is for everyone. In your case it just so happens to be Legendary Armor that isn’t for you.

But this is the problem, just because the existing raid is not for me, and it’s not, and I’m fine with that, that has ZERO bearing on whether or not the Legendary armor is “for me” or not. that will depend entirely on how it looks when it comes out. Just because it’s locked behind content I don’t like doesn’t mean that I won’t like the armor itself, so you can’t reasonably argue that it’s not “for me”.

You want legendary armor to be obtained via easymode raids where any random group of people can complete them with any phiw builds with a minimum of failures. That’s not earning legendary armor, it’s turning it into a participation reward.

But the current method of earning it is also a participation reward, just with a higher skill floor. It’s no more “earning it” than easy mode, it’s just for players that are more interested in coordinated group gameplay than those that would prefer the easy mode version. Players are not more entitled to the reward just because they happen to enjoy that sort of gameplay and are good at it.

Ohoni.6057:

You can disagree with me without slandering me.

There’s no slander here, just a statement of facts.

That’s not how slander works. When you mis-attribute a statement to someone, that is slander. Well, ok, technically liable since we’re doing it in print, but it’s a weird distinction between journalism and forum discussions. You said that I want the rewards without earning them, that is factually incorrect since I do want to earn them, even if you don’t believe that there is any way to earn them short of participating in raids.

TexZero.7910:

If anything the unreasonable request being made is for Anet to 180 at the behest of a very vocal minority of players who didn’t read the blogpost where in it explicitly stated Legendary Armor is a reward of Raiding, and that Raiding is their vision of the Ultimate End Game Challenging group content.

Then this Anet is definitely not Anet who made a GW2 back in 2012. What’s next, raid drops Imbued Ascended Armor 2.0 with increased over “old ascended” stats along with +10-15 stat infusions for raid-only currency? Fractal team (if it still exists) disbanded and merged with raid one because raids are only true endgame content? LS3 cancelled because they need resources to make new raids?

Ohoni.6057:

Then farm the gold somewhere else and buy the raids.

Sorry, perhaps I was a bit too brief earlier. “Yes, that’s the problem, people who raid feeling they are entitled to nicer things than those that do not. . . OR to be paid gold by those who do not.”

In either case it’s pretty sickening.

How is this not reasonable ?
If you want something, do the activity that has it.

but in this case, the activity in question is unreasonable to a great many players, so expecting players to do it is unreasonable.

This is very much a themepark MMO, there’s something out there for everyone, but not everything is for everyone. In your case it just so happens to be Legendary Armor that isn’t for you.

But this is the problem, just because the existing raid is not for me, and it’s not, and I’m fine with that, that has ZERO bearing on whether or not the Legendary armor is “for me” or not. that will depend entirely on how it looks when it comes out. Just because it’s locked behind content I don’t like doesn’t mean that I won’t like the armor itself, so you can’t reasonably argue that it’s not “for me”.

You want legendary armor to be obtained via easymode raids where any random group of people can complete them with any phiw builds with a minimum of failures. That’s not earning legendary armor, it’s turning it into a participation reward.

But the current method of earning it is also a participation reward, just with a higher skill floor. It’s no more “earning it” than easy mode, it’s just for players that are more interested in coordinated group gameplay than those that would prefer the easy mode version. Players are not more entitled to the reward just because they happen to enjoy that sort of gameplay and are good at it.

Ohoni.6057:

You can disagree with me without slandering me.

There’s no slander here, just a statement of facts.

That’s not how slander works. When you mis-attribute a statement to someone, that is slander. Well, ok, technically liable since we’re doing it in print, but it’s a weird distinction between journalism and forum discussions. You said that I want the rewards without earning them, that is factually incorrect since I do want to earn them, even if you don’t believe that there is any way to earn them short of participating in raids.

“Sorry, perhaps I was a bit too brief earlier. “Yes, that’s the problem, people who raid feeling they are entitled to nicer things than those that do not. . . OR to be paid gold by those who do not.””

So apparently the only way to get through to Ohoni is to explain to him why free market capitalism is beneficial for both parties?

So apparently the only way to get through to Ohoni is to explain to him why free market capitalism is beneficial for both parties?

It’s not beneficial to the consumer in this case. Yes, they can pay gold and they can get through the content to the reward that they want, that much is to their benefit. But they only NEED to make that transaction because the deck was stacked against them in the first place, because the conditions were such that they could not reasonably pursue their goal without making that transaction. This is not capitalism, this is highway robbery.

What would be beneficial to the consumer in this case would be for ANet to implement a new route to the end reward, one which the consumer could pursue without having to raid, AND without having to pay someone else to do it for him. Players should not be profiting at the expense of other players.

Ohoni.6057:

But the current method of earning it is also a participation reward, just with a higher skill floor. It’s no more “earning it” than easy mode

The skill floor being above subbasement level means that you need to put in effort to earn the reward; you don’t get a reward for showing up. You get the reward for showing up, learning the encounter, practicing, and completing the encounter. Not showing, pressing 1, and getting the rewards.

Ohoni.6057:

it’s just for players that are more interested in coordinated group gameplay than those that would prefer the easy mode version. Players are not more entitled to the reward just because they happen to enjoy that sort of gameplay and are good at it.

You keep saying this and it never gets less ridiculous. It’s a reward for players who put in the effort to do the raid. Whether or not they like it has 0 bearing on it. Players are entitled to the reward because they put in the effort to learn and complete the content.

That’s not how slander works. When you mis-attribute a statement to someone, that is slander. Well, ok, technically liable since we’re doing it in print, but it’s a weird distinction between journalism and forum discussions.

Kek

You said that I want the rewards without earning them, that is factually incorrect since I do want to earn them, even if you don’t believe that there is any way to earn them short of participating in raids.

You want to be given the rewards for showing up. That’s not earning them.

Ohoni.6057:

But they only NEED to make that transaction because the deck was stacked against them in the first place, because the conditions were such that they could not reasonably pursue their goal without making that transaction.

No one needs to make any transaction and no one has the deck “stacked against them”. Everyone has the capability to make it through the content; every single player in this game can reasonably pursue the goal if they just put in a bit of effort.

[/quote]Players should not be profiting at the expense of other players. [/quote]

No one profits at the “expense” of others. Some players offer a service that other players are willing to pay for. Nothing more, nothing less.

Ohoni.6057:

So apparently the only way to get through to Ohoni is to explain to him why free market capitalism is beneficial for both parties?

It’s not beneficial to the consumer in this case. Yes, they can pay gold and they can get through the content to the reward that they want, that much is to their benefit. But they only NEED to make that transaction because the deck was stacked against them in the first place, because the conditions were such that they could not reasonably pursue their goal without making that transaction. This is not capitalism, this is highway robbery.

What would be beneficial to the consumer in this case would be for ANet to implement a new route to the end reward, one which the consumer could pursue without having to raid, AND without having to pay someone else to do it for him. Players should not be profiting at the expense of other players.

Ok all joking aside, you’re actually arguing to balance the game in favor of raid buyers and AT THE EXPENSE of raid sellers. Do you understand why us raiders don’t like your ideas yet?

And yet again you use this word “NEED”, no, no one needs to buy raids, none of these people have a gun pointed at them. They can choose to do raids themselves to get the reward they want, as I’ve attempted to point out to you a million times before. If they still want the reward they can farm the gold somewhere else and pay full price.

Let me explain this to you in numbers, legendary armor can be valued by the amount of gold it costs to get it: ie lets say it costs 10k to buy enough raids to get it.

If you suggest that that’s robbery, well then you can make easy mode raids where people can get armor. This way nobody will need to buy raids, making the value of legendary armor at around 2k assuming thats the price of all the materials needed.

QED I have just proven that if everything you say were to be implemented, the value of legendary armor would be now about 1/5 of the value (and therefore prestige) as it was before. As someone who wants to get legendary armor, that upsets me.

The skill floor being above subbasement level means that you need to put in effort to earn the reward; you don’t get a reward for showing up. You get the reward for showing up, learning the encounter, practicing, and completing the encounter. Not showing, pressing 1, and getting the rewards.

Sure, but either way is still earning the reward, just earning it by doing different things.

It’s a reward for players who put in the effort to do the raid. Whether or not they like it has 0 bearing on it.

but if they like it they are being rewarded for having fun. If they don’t like it then they’re being rewarded for NOT having fun. How would it be balanced for the two groups to end up with the same reward, and why would you ever want the latter situation to occur? Wouldn’t it be preferable for everyone involved if BOTH groups could earn the reward while having fun?

You want to be given the rewards for showing up. That’s not earning them.

and you want to be given the rewards for showing up and then jumping through a certain series of hoops, that is no more earning them just because you happen to enjoy hoop jumping.

No one needs to make any transaction and no one has the deck “stacked against them”.

If people can’t do it themselves – > they should pay someone else to do it for them.

If people question paying others to do it for them → they don’t have to pay people they can do it themselves.

Repeat.

I’m rather tired of that cycle, frankly.

Can’t we just agree that there are people who WON’T, for whatever reason, earn the Legendary armor through the existing methods, and stop quibbling over why that is the case, and instead move on to how to resolve it for them, rather than instead focusing on how you would resolve it if you were in their shoes, which you wouldn’t be because you’re a different person?

No one profits at the “expense” of others. Some players offer a service that other players are willing to pay for. Nothing more, nothing less.

But the service is only necessary because you insist that it should be. The service doesn’t HAVE to exist in the first place. If there is a wall, and the wall serves no useful function, but does prevent free traffic through it, and some can climb over it quite easily, while others cannot, then yes, it would be a public service for someone to offer to boost people over the wall that cannot get over it themselves.

But then if there were a measure put forth to knock kitten through that wall, allowing those same people to pass through the wall without needing that person to boost them, and the booster was wailing and gnashing over the mere possibility of that occurring, because he likes his wall and like that he can pass over it while others cannot, and that he can charge to help people over it, then he is no longer providing a public service, he is standing in the way of the public good.

Ok all joking aside, you’re actually arguing to balance the game in favor of raid buyers and AT THE EXPENSE of raid sellers. Do you understand why us raiders don’t like your ideas yet?

Oh, I’ve understood from the start why raiders might be opposed to it, naked self-interest is part of human nature. I’ve just never understood why anyone else should care.

Ohoni.6057:

Ok all joking aside, you’re actually arguing to balance the game in favor of raid buyers and AT THE EXPENSE of raid sellers. Do you understand why us raiders don’t like your ideas yet?

Oh, I’ve understood from the start why raiders might be opposed to it, naked self-interest is part of human nature. I’ve just never understood why anyone else should care.

Ok so you admit that this would be obviously unfavorable to people who do raids now? You’re literally trying to argue with people you ADMIT you are trying to screw over. No wonder they all disagree with you.

Ohoni.6057:

So apparently the only way to get through to Ohoni is to explain to him why free market capitalism is beneficial for both parties?

It’s not beneficial to the consumer in this case. Yes, they can pay gold and they can get through the content to the reward that they want, that much is to their benefit. But they only NEED to make that transaction because the deck was stacked against them in the first place, because the conditions were such that they could not reasonably pursue their goal without making that transaction. This is not capitalism, this is highway robbery.

What would be beneficial to the consumer in this case would be for ANet to implement a new route to the end reward, one which the consumer could pursue without having to raid, AND without having to pay someone else to do it for him. Players should not be profiting at the expense of other players.

I don’t understand this reasoning at all. Think of any of the products you buy irl (car, house even meat). How many thing do you make completely on your own from start to finish with the things you can gather from nature? Getting a raid group set up and the mechanics learned is nowhere near compareable with things like car building. Yes, the cards are stacked against you in every single case → never a robbery, always a simple question of scarcity.

So grind that gold in SW and give it to raiders if you want legendary armor. Think of it as doing your job to get enough money to buy a house.

Ohoni.6057:

This is very much a themepark MMO, there’s something out there for everyone, but not everything is for everyone. In your case it just so happens to be Legendary Armor that isn’t for you.

But this is the problem, just because the existing raid is not for me, and it’s not, and I’m fine with that, that has ZERO bearing on whether or not the Legendary armor is “for me” or not. that will depend entirely on how it looks when it comes out. Just because it’s locked behind content I don’t like doesn’t mean that I won’t like the armor itself, so you can’t reasonably argue that it’s not “for me”.

Except that it has 100% bearing that the Armor is not for you.

The only way to get said reward is to do said content. You refuse to do it ergo not for you.

Even if it was aesthetically the most pleasant thing since sliced bread, it still wouldn’t be for you, as you still would not be putting in the effort. How do we know this ? Because you actively refuse to put in the effort now and push for a mode that caters to your skill level instead. Meaning that the problem for you is the reward and the mode. You need something easier, because you are either incapable or unwilling.

Ok so you admit that this would be obviously unfavorable to people who do raids now? You’re literally trying to argue with people you ADMIT you are trying to screw over. No wonder they all disagree with you.

Yes, and if it mattered whether or not they disagreed with me then I’d be in trouble, but fortunately nobody needs their permission for anything.

Really though, it wouldn’t be at all unfavorable to raiders, ONLY to those raiders that profit off of their fellow players, or who enjoy having things that other people do not, rather than enjoying that those other people are happy.

I don’t understand this reasoning at all. Think of any of the products you buy irl (car, house even meat). How many thing do you make completely on your own from start to finish with the things you can gather from nature?

Yes, but this is why most analogies that compare the digital to the real world break down. A real world item has properties that are entirely outside anyone’s control. A car requires metals and plastics, which need to be dug out of the earth and transported. It needs machining facilities and skilled labor to produce. A person cannot do these things alone, and thus needs others to do it for them, fair enough. But a car needs those things because of physical properties that cannot be altered.

If, on the other hand, a scientist invented a way to literally pull a car out of thin air, a method for any person to think to themselves “I’d like to have a car,” and lo, a car appears before them at no cost to anyone, then wouldn’t the auto industry be kind of kittens if they tried to suppress this revelation and prevent others from benefiting from it? Sure, they would be out of work, but far more people would benefit than would be harmed by it.

That’s how the digital situation works. Legendary armor is not liked behind raids because it absolutely MUST be that way. It is not impossible for them to be earned through other means. They are only locked behind raids at the moment because some people in a game company decided that this is currently the only way to get them. A few strokes of the keyboard and flicks of the mouse and you could earn them through regular dungeons, open world events, or even Keg Brawl, entirely up to them.

So no, real world analogies like you bring up do not apply here, because the basic rules of reality are not as malleable as the forces at play within a game.

And highway robbery, in case you’re unfamiliar with the term, is someone taking advantage of another person in an unavoidable situation, even if that situation is not the fault of the “robber.” An example might be an auto mechanic in a remote location charging several times the rate that would be charged in a more populous area, simply because there are no other options around. It is not literally “theft,” but it is considered reprehensible behavior.

Except that it has 100% bearing that the Armor is not for you.

The only way to get said reward is to do said content. You refuse to do it ergo not for you.

Even if it was aesthetically the most pleasant thing since sliced bread, it still wouldn’t be for you, as you still would not be putting in the effort. How do we know this ? Because you actively refuse to put in the effort now and push for a mode that caters to your skill level instead. Meaning that the problem for you is the reward and the mode. You need something easier, because you are either incapable or unwilling.

But again, you’re pointing out that the content the reward is attached to is not for me, which we agree on, but that has no bearing on whether the armor itself is for me, which is entirely to do with the aesthetics. If it’s particularly ugly, like most CoF armor, then yeah, not really for me, but if it looks cool, then yeah, it’s as for me as for anyone, regardless of the method of unlocking it.

Ohoni.6057:

Except that it has 100% bearing that the Armor is not for you.

The only way to get said reward is to do said content. You refuse to do it ergo not for you.

Even if it was aesthetically the most pleasant thing since sliced bread, it still wouldn’t be for you, as you still would not be putting in the effort. How do we know this ? Because you actively refuse to put in the effort now and push for a mode that caters to your skill level instead. Meaning that the problem for you is the reward and the mode. You need something easier, because you are either incapable or unwilling.

But again, you’re pointing out that the content the reward is attached to is not for me, which we agree on, but that has no bearing on whether the armor itself is for me, which is entirely to do with the aesthetics. If it’s particularly ugly, like most CoF armor, then yeah, not really for me, but if it looks cool, then yeah, it’s as for me as for anyone, regardless of the method of unlocking it.

I really don’t understand. Ok you think the content is not for you, so hence the reward is not for you. That’s all. If you trully want the reward, then go for it. Even if you don’t like the content, having the reward would be nice for you and would compensate the time spent in raids. And if you really can’t bear raids, then it’s ok, you won"t have the reward. Not a big deal.

Btw, did you read what Dusk wrote? about why anet won’t put another way to have legendary armor because it’s a nice carrot to motivate people to go into raids. Because let’s not forget that raids are a succes, and a game mode supported by Anet. So they won’t do something to hurt and devalue it, like adding another way, easier way, to have legendary armor.

@Ohoni The rules do apply and that’s why we have this thing called Trading Post and things have prices. I wish I could magically summon elonian leather from thin air. Instead I have to buy them ‘cos I don’t have time to grind them. I don’t complain about that on the forums.

Ok you think the content is not for you, so hence the reward is not for you.

No, false conflation.

Even if you don’t like the content, having the reward would be nice for you and would compensate the time spent in raids.

No, because the time spent doing the raids would be such a negative that the positive of having the armro would not make up for it. Besides, why would anyone WANT a player to go through something that he isn’t enjoying? WHY IS THAT MEANT TO BE A GOOD THING? If you klnow that a player does not enjoy a certain activity, shouldn’t you want very much that he never do that thing, rather than encouraging him to “close his eyes and think of England?”

Btw, did you read what Dusk wrote? about why anet won’t put another way to have legendary armor because it’s a nice carrot to motivate people to go into raids. Because let’s not forget that raids are a succes, and a game mode supported by Anet. So they won’t do something to hurt and devalue it, like adding another way, easier way, to have legendary armor.

And if all of that turns out to be true then you have no reason to fear me, or participate in this thread in any way, and yet you keep doing so anyway. . .

I wish I could magically summon elonian leather from thin air. Instead I have to buy them ‘cos I don’t have time to grind them. I don’t complain about that on the forums.

But the point is, Elonian Leather doesn’t have the price it has because “that’s the way it must be,” and it has nothing to do with the “free market,” because this game has no free market. The price of Elonian Leather is what it is because someone at ANet decided to write a bunch of recipes for nice things that included Elonian Leather. And a given recipe might call for ten pieces rather than one, and the recipe for Elonian Leather requires 50 total smaller leather pieces, when it could call for 5, or 100. There are dozens of factors that result in the final price of Elonian leather, and while in the real world most if not all of those factors are outside of human control, in the game, each of those factors is a 100% human-guided decision, and could be changed at a moment’s notice if the result becomes undesirable. Nothing that happens in this game can be attributed to the whims of fate, it is all the result of human decisions, and if they change their mind, those results can be changed as well.

And if all of that turns out to be true then you have no reason to fear me, or participate in this thread in any way, and yet you keep doing so anyway. . .

Oh don’t worry i don’t fear you, your solution will never be implemented. I will not post anymore, it’s impossible to reason with you. I think we should just stop all to post, and let this thread die since the last 22 pages are totally off topic.