Guild Wars 2

Manthas.6234:

A few scouts enter the game with no raids, demand them to be added, get them, all the raiders invade, clear them in a week, leave the game for another one with no raids.

Only now I understand that raiders are raiders in a much more literal sense.

Raids are contributing to player retention.

Sarrs.4831:

Manthas.6234:

A few scouts enter the game with no raids, demand them to be added, get them, all the raiders invade, clear them in a week, leave the game for another one with no raids.

Only now I understand that raiders are raiders in a much more literal sense.

Raids are contributing to player retention.

Put that in the corner with e-sports.

Manthas.6234:

Sarrs.4831:

Manthas.6234:

A few scouts enter the game with no raids, demand them to be added, get them, all the raiders invade, clear them in a week, leave the game for another one with no raids.

Only now I understand that raiders are raiders in a much more literal sense.

Raids are contributing to player retention.

Put that in the corner with e-sports.

Which still retains more players than Silverwaste, so what are you actually trying to prove ?

TexZero.7910:

Which still retains more players than Silverwaste, so what are you actually trying to prove ?

All ESL-level teams combined have same amount of people as one random SW map? Well, I can agree with that.

TexZero.7910:

Manthas.6234:

Sarrs.4831:

Manthas.6234:

A few scouts enter the game with no raids, demand them to be added, get them, all the raiders invade, clear them in a week, leave the game for another one with no raids.

Only now I understand that raiders are raiders in a much more literal sense.

Raids are contributing to player retention.

Put that in the corner with e-sports.

Which still retains more players than Silverwaste, so what are you actually trying to prove ?

Prove? Nothing.
Just been here long enough to see, that you can’t always trust developer’s word.

Manthas.6234:

Put that in the corner with e-sports.

I’m sorry if you don’t like facts.

The good thing about facts is that they are true whether you like them or not.

Manthas.6234:

Prove? Nothing.
Just been here long enough to see, that you can’t always trust developer’s word.

If you have so little faith, why are you here?

If they’re willing to blatantly lie about whether raids are a success, why do you think they’d be willing to genuinely take any discussion on the forums against raids to heart?

Manthas.6234:

TexZero.7910:

Manthas.6234:

Sarrs.4831:

Manthas.6234:

A few scouts enter the game with no raids, demand them to be added, get them, all the raiders invade, clear them in a week, leave the game for another one with no raids.

Only now I understand that raiders are raiders in a much more literal sense.

Raids are contributing to player retention.

Put that in the corner with e-sports.

Which still retains more players than Silverwaste, so what are you actually trying to prove ?

Prove? Nothing.
Just been here long enough to see, that you can’t always trust developer’s word.

Sure, but i can trust the developers word more than a blind cynic. They have the numbers, they’ve shared said numbers. More than anything any forum warrior certainly has done. So please get me number, or get me a dev you find worthy until then, i know which statement has more weight.

TexZero.7910:

Manthas.6234:

TexZero.7910:

Manthas.6234:

Sarrs.4831:

Manthas.6234:

A few scouts enter the game with no raids, demand them to be added, get them, all the raiders invade, clear them in a week, leave the game for another one with no raids.

Only now I understand that raiders are raiders in a much more literal sense.

Raids are contributing to player retention.

Put that in the corner with e-sports.

Which still retains more players than Silverwaste, so what are you actually trying to prove ?

Prove? Nothing.
Just been here long enough to see, that you can’t always trust developer’s word.

Sure, but i can trust the developers word more than a blind cynic. They have the numbers, they’ve shared said numbers. More than anything any forum warrior certainly has done. So please get me number, or get me a dev you find worthy until then, i know which statement has more weight.

Do not try to bring developer’s word as an argument in a game, where developers themselves said that they’ll be talking less and doing more, since their words and promises have backfired more times than I’m willing to count. Don’t do that and you won’t be met with blind cynicism.

Because people either enter MMOs at launch or soon after launch, at an expansion launch or soon after expansion launch, or not at all.

Typically, yeah, but they also typically have a significant and often life-saving bump when they move from P2P to F2P, SWTOR did, ESO did, Wildstar did not. It got a very mild bump, but nowhere near what other games did. That indicates that it was not just the price, although it’s fair to argue it would have done better if it’d launched B2P, but clearly even for free, most players did not want what they were selling, and what they were selling were classic hard mode raids.

Finally, yes the raids have been a boon to the whole game, sorry your experiences are garbage but that does not change the facts. The game was missing challenging and engaging content that was not a zerg fest, raids fulfilled that role without taking away the core of the identity that was fractals.

It wasn’t missing those things, it just didn’t have them. It’d be like saying that someone was “missing kitten in their chest.” It was lacking, not missed. Now it has them and is bleeding out because of it.

Ohoni.6057:

Typically, yeah, but they also typically have a significant and often life-saving bump when they move from P2P to F2P, SWTOR did, ESO did, Wildstar did not. It got a very mild bump, but nowhere near what other games did. That indicates that it was not just the price, although it’s fair to argue it would have done better if it’d launched B2P, but clearly even for free, most players did not want what they were selling, and what they were selling were classic hard mode raids.

I brought up IP for a reason

“Hey that star wars game went free” “yeah let’s go play with LIGHTSABERS”
“Hey that ESO game went free” “yeah skyrim was p cool”
“hey that wildstar game went free” “? so what”

“Hey, that hardcore raiding game went free?” “What is this, 2005? Who cares about raiding?”

Sarrs.4831:

Raids are contributing to player retention.

Can you prove this?

TexZero.7910:

Manthas.6234:

Put that in the corner with e-sports.

Which still retains more players than Silverwaste, so what are you actually trying to prove ?

Can you Prove this?

If you can prove these claims, with solid facts, that raid contribute to player retention as opposed to burnout or ‘kittening people off’ I’ll concede this entire discussion.

STIHL.2489:

Can you prove this?

Rising Dusk.2408:

• Raids are very active and are contributing to player retention.

Ok, I admit I continue to contribute to this thread because it is super entertaining. It’s interesting to see some of the thought processes here.

Regarding distrusting developer statements – I mean, if you are not going to believe developer statements that raids exceeded their expected benchmarks, then I’m not sure there’s much to argue about. Nothing here will convince you.

Regarding raid resource allocation – I’m not sure why non raiders think the small raid team is irrelevant. It shows that developer focus is not on raids. I’m also pretty sure that all wings were in some form of development prior to HOT. If all 3 wings were released with HOT, would you still think raids were a focus?

Some additional points:

- Other content in this game is hard. Arah. Aether path. Liadri. Halloween jumping puzzle. Those don’t have easy modes.

- All content in this game has unique rewards. Open world (map metas), WvW (wvw armor), PvP (glorious armor, pvp backpiece), Fractals (silver/gold fractal skins, backpiece), SAB (SAB skins), guilds (guild armor and weapons). Having unique rewards with raids is in line with the rest of the game.

- Tying legendaries to content is not new or unique to raids. Legendary weapons are mostly tied to pve. Backpiece to pvp (and eventually fractals). Armor eventually to raids.

And some additional arguments:

- Player preferences change. Just because raids weren’t in the game at release, doesn’t mean there isn’t an audience for them now. At launch, I liked open world and exploration. I was as far away from a hard core elitist as you could get. (I shamefully admit that I used to think a healing staff mesmer was good). But that was three years ago. I like GW2 combat – it’s part of what initially got me hooked. Now I like to apply it to more challenging encounters.

- It’s ok not to like everything in this game. I understand if you don’t like raids. Ok. But a lot of people do. Luckily, there’s other things to do in the game if you don’t like raids.

- Fractals and dungeons are far superior to easy mode raids. I’ve yet to hear any strong arguments here. The only response I get is that easy mode raids would be easier to make. While we don’t know whether this is really true, I believe there are separate teams working on fractals and raids. So we can get new fractals without tying up raids resources.

- Unless easy mode gives unique/additional rewards, there is no reason to run it, if you can already beat the normal mode. I don’t know anyone who runs infantile mode SAB, if they can already beat normal mode. Just not worth it.

- Legendary armor, while technically a separate tier of gear, is really just a fancy skin. Some in this thread want an easy mode partly/mostly because they want legendary armor. But, again, unique, hard to get, skins are nothing new in this game. And if we look at fun only (since I think everyone is capable of learning to raid), then it ignores the “fun” for other legendaries. Some people hate fractals. Some people hate pvp. Some people hate map completion. So they won’t get legendaries, unless they buy them or bite the bullet. Same with raids.

Sarrs.4831:

STIHL.2489:

Can you prove this?

Rising Dusk.2408:

• Raids are very active and are contributing to player retention.

I asked for Proof. You will need to provide for me, from a direct source, or something concrete. Notice this Disclaimer.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Note: I do not speak for ArenaNet, but I do speak with them, sometimes in-game. I am not bound by an NDA, but I also don’t want to throw any devs under the bus if they talk to me. Suffice it to say that as far as I understand, ANet considers raids a resounding success both in their impact on player retention and in keeping raiders raiding, and at this point they expect the next expansion will have a raid.

There is no actual proof here, only speculation.

Come back when you have proof, and when you have slain Redfang on elite.

STIHL.2489:

I asked for Proof. You will need to provide for me, from a direct source, or something concrete. Notice this Disclaimer.

So if a dev directly told you, ‘raids are contributing to player retention’ then there we go?

Sarrs.4831:

STIHL.2489:

I asked for Proof. You will need to provide for me, from a direct source, or something concrete. Notice this Disclaimer.

So if a dev directly told you, ‘raids are contributing to player retention’ then there we go?

If they came to this topic and put their name and company seal on that statement, or another reputable source, and directly said that Raids were a direct contributing factor to player retention. Oh Absolutely.

In fact, I’d walk away feeling great about them and their future.

Edit Added:

Also, let me know when you have done Tempest Spine, at level, on elite. That’s when I will know you truly experienced DDO, and you will be able to fully understand how effective and game changing difficulty settings can be, even for raids.

Rednik.3809:

IndigoSundown.5419:

… stuff …

• With raids, ANet put in something that might appeal to some new customers, and which also filled a void created by the abandonment of dungeons.

Raid as a feature to attract new customers, like, something rare and not seen before?

ANet has been after new accounts as far back as the first time they put core on sale. So, no, more like “something that might be attractive to those who like raids in other games and didn’t buy GW2 specifically because GW2 did not have them.”

IndigoSundown.5419:

• I disagree that “anyone” whose played GW2 for a long time bought it specifically to play a game without raids. I know people who bought it back then hoping that dungeons would be all ANet hyped them to — this game’s raids.

Huh? It was one of their strongest selling points, game without toxic raiding community and their typical attitudes. Have fun, not second job.

Because you found that to be a strong selling point does not mean it was for everyone. It ain’t necessarily so. ANet never said they were trying to make the game unattractive to raiders. In fact, they thought of explorable dungeons as the GW2 equivalent to raids. It didn’t work out that way, but the intent was stated.

IndigoSundown.5419:

• On Alienating a demographic: how about the people who like hard instanced content? Aren’t they a demographic?

Ahem. Wildstar. Remember that word every time when you seeing someone bringing up an argument about raiders as something worthwhile to sustain a game. Only game that managed to pull it off and survive long enough was WoW, and WoW did it only because they was smart enough to trash whole “raiding for elite” concept and made them available for everyone in wide range of difficulties.

As I remember, most of the hate of Wildstar boiled down to two things:

1. People who bought the game while preferring solo PvE play despite the pre-launch hype.
2. Wildstar had way too much, and draconian, pre-raid prep required. GW2 avoided a lot of that.

Fwiw, I am not suggesting that GW2 raiders can sustain the game. Rather, they can help sustain the game.

Other comments embedded in your post, in italics.

Manthas.6234:

IndigoSundown.5419:

• On Alienating a demographic: how about the people who like hard instanced content? Aren’t they a demographic?

Problem is, GW2 was never about hard instanced content. There are plenty of other games offering that and there was no reason to cater that demographic. (Of course, falling sales might have been the reason).

randomguy.1283:

“I don’t find pvp fun and anet said this game would be fun so clearly it doesn’t belong in this game.”

^ your argument against raids

PvP was always there, raids have only been added recently. Your argument is invalid.

Explorable dungeons were meant to be the GW2 equivalent to raids. That was the stated intent. They were spoken of as such as early as 2011. Dungeons didn’t quite work out as was intended, but there was intent pre-launch for hard, instanced content to be in the game. GW2 does not have to be about only one type of thing, for all that some people think that everything put into the game should be what they prefer.

Manthas.6234:

IndigoSundown.5419:

• On Alienating a demographic: how about the people who like hard instanced content? Aren’t they a demographic?

Problem is, GW2 was never about hard instanced content.

Instanced dungeons were very hard at release. Instanced fractals were hard. Season 2 had hard instances.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I am not suggesting that GW2 raiders can sustain the game. Rather, they can help sustain the game.

I hear people say this all the time. But I have not seen anyone generate a convincing point as to why they believe this, or what they base this upon.

Historically, even games that have built a reputation around raiding and providing harder content, can’t sustain themselves in this direction because invariably at some point the content will become too demanding and thus burn out the players.

Veteran Players will change, their life will change, they will need to redirect focus, they will need to realize they can’t invest time into MMO’s like they used, which was a massive attraction of GW2 to many players who had played games like WoW for years, and simply could not maintain that investment. As such, we can see, even from a Juggernaut like WoW, that Raids, and increasingly difficulty content are simply not sustainable in and of their own right.

So I am wondering. How, exactly, will raids help sustain this game, when they have not done so for any other MMO in history?

STIHL.2489:

IndigoSundown.5419:

I am not suggesting that GW2 raiders can sustain the game. Rather, they can help sustain the game.

I hear people say this all the time. But I have not seen anyone generate a convincing point as to why they believe this, or what they base this upon.

Historically, even games that have built a reputation around raiding and providing harder content, can’t sustain themselves in this direction because invariably at some point the content will become too demanding and thus burn out the players.

Veteran Players will change, their life will change, they will need to redirect focus, they will need to realize they can’t invest time into MMO’s like they used, which was a massive attraction of GW2 to many players who had played games like WoW for years, and simply could not maintain that investment. As such, we can see, even from a Juggernaut like WoW, that Raids, and increasingly difficulty content are simply not sustainable in and of their own right.

So I am wondering. How, exactly, will raids help sustain this game, when they have not done so for any other MMO in history?

Raids offer content that appeal to certain demographics, Gw2 having this option of gameplay entices those players to play, if fresh content is released for said demographic they can sustain gaining players while losing players, every game has players comin and going constantly, not providing this option of play would not net players joining to see if they enjoy the raid designs.

And your casual open world easy content didn’t keep players, a lot of players left due to no challenging content, so even that model is not sustainable, the player base has been on a huge decline well before HoT and raids were released.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

STIHL.2489:

IndigoSundown.5419:

I am not suggesting that GW2 raiders can sustain the game. Rather, they can help sustain the game.

I hear people say this all the time. But I have not seen anyone generate a convincing point as to why they believe this, or what they base this upon.

Historically, even games that have built a reputation around raiding and providing harder content, can’t sustain themselves in this direction because invariably at some point the content will become too demanding and thus burn out the players.

Veteran Players will change, their life will change, they will need to redirect focus, they will need to realize they can’t invest time into MMO’s like they used, which was a massive attraction of GW2 to many players who had played games like WoW for years, and simply could not maintain that investment. As such, we can see, even from a Juggernaut like WoW, that Raids, and increasingly difficulty content are simply not sustainable in and of their own right.

So I am wondering. How, exactly, will raids help sustain this game, when they have not done so for any other MMO in history?

Raids offer content that appeal to certain demographics, Gw2 having this option of gameplay entices those players to play, if fresh content is released for said demographic they can sustain gaining players while losing players, every game has players comin and going constantly, not providing this option of play would not net players joining to see if they enjoy the raid designs.

And your casual open world easy content didn’t keep players, a lot of players left due to no challenging content, so even that model is not sustainable, the player base has been on a huge decline well before HoT and raids were released.

Actually, casual content is sustainable, due to inherent turn over, you replace casual people, with more casual people. There is no point they need to get to, so they there is no process of turn over to maintain.

Which is the problem with “end game” content, see an End Game Player is not something that comes to a game, it is something that only Goes.

Natural Turn Over will result in replacing an end-game player with a new-starting-player.

Now you can look at any MMO in history, and unfortunately they all pretty much end up following a similar pattern. If they have any longevity at all, they will always start to make “Harder End Game Content” to placate their Veteran Players who have already consumed and beat all their other content.

But, again, due to Turn Over, which is a natural and healthy part of any MMO, they lose those “End Game Players”.

This is where the problems start, they are now forced to buffer those ranks and voids in their wonderful and perhaps expanse end game content with the new players that come in.

Designers become forced to find ways to rush these new players to the end of the game, so that the end game does not look barren.

This always results in new players being literally handed gear, ranks, and everything they need to be competitive at that content, often gifted with items that the existing veteran population had to work for.

They need to fill the ranks so that the end game does not die out, which will happen, simply because Veteran Players are not renewable, you can’t just get more veteran players, You only get new players that you hope to become veterans. But that takes time, and in the meantime, there will be an endless streamof how the “end game” is becoming barren and dead. And that may lead to more Turn-over for the end game players.

So every game is stuck with that problem.

So, what ends up happening? They try to rush their new players into the ‘end-game’ content to stall any feeling of “This game is dying”

but, in doing so, they have to gear those players, and this often builds resentment, and issues of new players, now popped up to max level and geared appropriately, lacking the skill and understanding of the game mechanics, to really buffer the ranks of the departed Veteran Players. Thus a whole new problem arises of vets vs noobs.

Guess who wins that Face Off? That’s right, the New Players, because like it or not, vets are not Sustainable, they have a turn over, and no replacement.

So, what happens, well the new players, really don’t have the skill, to do the content, and since they were up to that point, handed everything on a silver platter, they will often lack the inclination to actually now have to work for anything, opt to move on.

So the game will need to nerf the content, to be accessible to these rushed to cap new players.

Every Game that has had “End Game” Content, has followed this pattern, no one is immune, not even WoW.

STIHL.2489:

IndigoSundown.5419:

I am not suggesting that GW2 raiders can sustain the game. Rather, they can help sustain the game.

I hear people say this all the time. But I have not seen anyone generate a convincing point as to why they believe this, or what they base this upon.

Hard, instanced content players were always courted by ANet, going back before launch. Over time, that demographic shrank because they got very little new (one path revamp, one substitute path, a large infusion with FotM over 3 years ago, very little added to FotM since). Explorable dungeons have been abandoned, and raids were substituted. How would putting in new content for a demographic not increase that demographic? The MMO business is a numbers game, whether it reels in cash via a sub, or via a store that x% of the total player-base buys from. Bigger numbers is likely to yield bigger dollars.

Historically, even games that have built a reputation around raiding and providing harder content, can’t sustain themselves in this direction because invariably at some point the content will become too demanding and thus burn out the players.

Veteran Players will change, their life will change, they will need to redirect focus, they will need to realize they can’t invest time into MMO’s like they used, which was a massive attraction of GW2 to many players who had played games like WoW for years, and simply could not maintain that investment. As such, we can see, even from a Juggernaut like WoW, that Raids, and increasingly difficulty content are simply not sustainable in and of their own right.

Perhaps that’s why GW2 raids are tuned to be doable in exotics. While there may be an Ascended barrier to entry into PuG raids, that’s a player thing. There’s no big lead-in before you can raid in GW2, other than having to buy HoT.

So I am wondering. How, exactly, will raids help sustain this game, when they have not done so for any other MMO in history?

If raids aren’t helping to sustain multiple MMO’s, why do those games have them? “Helping a game survive” does not have to mean being the majority contributor, there just has to be a notable percentage of money brought in due to that content.

We have no idea how many who raid also buy gems. ANet may not even track that. They certainly can track a (possible) increase in player logins and a (possible) increase in gem sales. Something else we don’t know is how many of the (likely) 300-400K accounts that bought HoT did so and have raided (but we know ANet said the number was above their expectations). We also don’t know how many for whom raids were the primary selling point of HoT. We have to depend on ANet, and right now they say they’re happy with the participation with raids. If it wasn’t working for them as a business, I doubt they’ll continue to put resources into it.

I’ve seen a few posts where players said they were leaving. Some cite lack of new PvE content since HoT. Some hate HoT. A few have said it was because of raids. At that point, it becomes a numbers game, Were more players retained or lost due to raids? We’ll likely never know. We do know, though, that some posters tend to over-inflate the numbers who agree with them. So, I take the posts about people leaving in droves because of raids with a grain of salt. Thus, the equation:

(Number who utilize raids) – (number who left because of raids) = [some largish positive number]

STIHL.2489:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

STIHL.2489:

IndigoSundown.5419:

I am not suggesting that GW2 raiders can sustain the game. Rather, they can help sustain the game.

I hear people say this all the time. But I have not seen anyone generate a convincing point as to why they believe this, or what they base this upon.

Historically, even games that have built a reputation around raiding and providing harder content, can’t sustain themselves in this direction because invariably at some point the content will become too demanding and thus burn out the players.

Veteran Players will change, their life will change, they will need to redirect focus, they will need to realize they can’t invest time into MMO’s like they used, which was a massive attraction of GW2 to many players who had played games like WoW for years, and simply could not maintain that investment. As such, we can see, even from a Juggernaut like WoW, that Raids, and increasingly difficulty content are simply not sustainable in and of their own right.

So I am wondering. How, exactly, will raids help sustain this game, when they have not done so for any other MMO in history?

Raids offer content that appeal to certain demographics, Gw2 having this option of gameplay entices those players to play, if fresh content is released for said demographic they can sustain gaining players while losing players, every game has players comin and going constantly, not providing this option of play would not net players joining to see if they enjoy the raid designs.

And your casual open world easy content didn’t keep players, a lot of players left due to no challenging content, so even that model is not sustainable, the player base has been on a huge decline well before HoT and raids were released.

Actually, casual content is sustainable, due to inherent turn over, you replace casual people, with more casual people. There is no point they need to get to, so they there is no process of turn over to maintain.

Which is the problem with “end game” content, see an End Game Player is not something that comes to a game, it is something that only Goes.

Natural Turn Over will result in replacing an end-game player with a new-starting-player.

Now you can look at any MMO in history, and unfortunately they all pretty much end up following a similar pattern. If they have any longevity at all, they will always start to make “Harder End Game Content” to placate their Veteran Players who have already consumed and beat all their other content.

But, again, due to Turn Over, which is a natural and healthy part of any MMO, they lose those “End Game Players”.

This is where the problems start, they are now forced to buffer those ranks and voids in their wonderful and perhaps expanse end game content with the new players that come in.

Designers become forced to find ways to rush these new players to the end of the game, so that the end game does not look barren.

This always results in new players being literally handed gear, ranks, and everything they need to be competitive at that content, often gifted with items that the existing veteran population had to work for.

They need to fill the ranks so that the end game does not die out, which will happen, simply because Veteran Players are not renewable, you can’t just get more veteran players, You only get new players that you hope to become veterans. But that takes time, and in the meantime, there will be an endless streamof how the “end game” is becoming barren and dead. And that may lead to more Turn-over for the end game players.

So every game is stuck with that problem.

So, what ends up happening? They try to rush their new players into the ‘end-game’ content to stall any feeling of “This game is dying”

but, in doing so, they have to gear those players, and this often builds resentment, and issues of new players, now popped up to max level and geared appropriately, lacking the skill and understanding of the game mechanics, to really buffer the ranks of the departed Veteran Players. Thus a whole new problem arises of vets vs noobs.

Guess who wins that Face Off? That’s right, the New Players, because like it or not, vets are not Sustainable, they have a turn over, and no replacement.

So, what happens, well the new players, really don’t have the skill, to do the content, and since they were up to that point, handed everything on a silver platter, they will often lack the inclination to actually now have to work for anything, opt to move on.

So the game will need to nerf the content, to be accessible to these rushed to cap new players.

Every Game that has had “End Game” Content, has followed this pattern, no one is immune, not even WoW.

Hmm not sustainable but a lot of my friends and I are still here and so are many more and you can’t say raiders don’t have turn over new players wanton to raid come in all the time and leave the same as casuals so there goes that issue.

and the gearing aspect is a non issue since players can hear up in the required gear for any hard content minus high level fractals by logging in and Buying/crafting exotics from multiple game modes. With other MMOs like WoW yes gearing was an issue that doesn’t exist in this game as been proven with “hard” content ( raid clears in full exotics/ and by 5 man groups.) you don’t need the best in slot gear to compete in raids, and if you try to use the casuals aren’t as skillful as raiders would be another fallacy, since casuals is a title for a style of player not the skill of the player, if you try to rebuttal the gear argument for raids.

IndigoSundown.5419:

STIHL.2489:

IndigoSundown.5419:

I am not suggesting that GW2 raiders can sustain the game. Rather, they can help sustain the game.

I hear people say this all the time. But I have not seen anyone generate a convincing point as to why they believe this, or what they base this upon.

Hard, instanced content players were always courted by ANet, going back before launch. Over time, that demographic shrank because they got very little new (one path revamp, one substitute path, a large infusion with FotM over 3 years ago, very little added to FotM since). Explorable dungeons have been abandoned, and raids were substituted. How would putting in new content for a demographic not increase that demographic? The MMO business is a numbers game, whether it reels in cash via a sub, or via a store that x% of the total player-base buys from. Bigger numbers is likely to yield bigger dollars.

Historically, even games that have built a reputation around raiding and providing harder content, can’t sustain themselves in this direction because invariably at some point the content will become too demanding and thus burn out the players.

Veteran Players will change, their life will change, they will need to redirect focus, they will need to realize they can’t invest time into MMO’s like they used, which was a massive attraction of GW2 to many players who had played games like WoW for years, and simply could not maintain that investment. As such, we can see, even from a Juggernaut like WoW, that Raids, and increasingly difficulty content are simply not sustainable in and of their own right.

Perhaps that’s why GW2 raids are tuned to be doable in exotics. While there may be an Ascended barrier to entry into PuG raids, that’s a player thing. There’s no big lead-in before you can raid in GW2, other than having to buy HoT.

So I am wondering. How, exactly, will raids help sustain this game, when they have not done so for any other MMO in history?

If raids aren’t helping to sustain multiple MMO’s, why do those games have them? “Helping a game survive” does not have to mean being the majority contributor, there just has to be a notable percentage of money brought in due to that content.

We have no idea how many who raid also buy gems. ANet may not even track that. They certainly can track a (possible) increase in player logins and a (possible) increase in gem sales. Something else we don’t know is how many of the (likely) 300-400K accounts that bought HoT did so and have raided (but we know ANet said the number was above their expectations). We also don’t know how many for whom raids were the primary selling point of HoT. We have to depend on ANet, and right now they say they’re happy with the participation with raids. If it wasn’t working for them as a business, I doubt they’ll continue to put resources into it.

I’ve seen a few posts where players said they were leaving. Some cite lack of new PvE content since HoT. Some hate HoT. A few have said it was because of raids. At that point, it becomes a numbers game, Were more players retained or lost due to raids? We’ll likely never know. We do know, though, that some posters tend to over-inflate the numbers who agree with them. So, I take the posts about people leaving in droves because of raids with a grain of salt. Thus, the equation:

(Number who utilize raids) – (number who left because of raids) = [some largish positive number]

You respond to my question with a Question?

Well, when you have an answer, I’ll be glad to listen to it.

STIHL.2489:

Actually, casual content is sustainable, due to inherent turn over, you replace casual people, with more casual people. There is no point they need to get to, so they there is no process of turn over to maintain.

Not really a sustainable strategy in the mid to long term if the game ever suffers from content droughts. Casual content gets eaten fast. Casuals eat that content quickly, nothing to do, get bored, leave. The game lives and dies on maintaining player interest and if that fades, that’s a problem.

The system can theoretically work under a sustainable Living World system in which content is rapidly added to the game and we can see similar returns in SWTOR having much higher subscription rates while it’s running its monthly KOTFE content but it’s a system that’s incredibly vulnerable to internal development issues. Like, y’know, the massive pipeline issues that GW2’s had for the last 17 months.

Hardcore content and hardcore players do a lot to help the game during these drought periods.

STIHL.2489:

Guess who wins that Face Off? That’s right, the New Players, because like it or not, vets are not Sustainable, they have a turn over, and no replacement.

Who do you think recommends the game to their friends?

STIHL.2489:

You respond to my question with a Question?

Well, when you have an answer, I’ll be glad to listen to it.

Nice to see you only read the first sentence. Perhaps read the rest.

Sarrs.4831:

Discussions regarding the internal resources spent on raids are moot. They’ve already said that they’re a success and that they are helping player retention.

They were saying the same about the second trait system. Until it got reworked due to being a big failure.

TexZero.7910:

Sure, but i can trust the developers word more than a blind cynic. They have the numbers, they’ve shared said numbers.

Quote please. Because i sure as kitten don’t remember them releasing any numbers about raids.

IndigoSundown.5419:

If raids aren’t helping to sustain multiple MMO’s, why do those games have them?

Tradition, mistakes of youth and inability to easily fix those mistakes without taking immense risks.

First wave of MMORPGs was aimed as a much more hardcore gamers. It was also aimed as a much smaller population levels. While eventually all (well, most) of MMOs started to draw in more casual crowd, the hardcores were a core of the first wave of players for those MMOs, and consequently formed the core of the veteran players. Also, those players were far more active in communicating with the developers, thus presenting themselves as the voice of the community.
Thus the content was created mostly with that group in mind. By the time game companies realized what’s happening it was already too late. The established games were , well, established (and if you know what’s good for you, you don’t try to do major changes to such games unless you really, really desperate). The newcomers were looking at the past titles (with WoW on top) and trying to blindly copy the “succesful” design. And raids became an iconic feature of MMORPGs

There’s a reason why Blizzard is trying to change that design trying desperately many different things other than raids. It’s because raids can keep (some) old players in the game, but will not get them new ones. Just as Stihl said.

Sarrs.4831:

Who do you think recommends the game to their friends?

Mostly new players. Old players invited their friends long ago, and those friends either are already playing, no longer playing or never were going to play.

IndigoSundown.5419:

STIHL.2489:

You respond to my question with a Question?

Well, when you have an answer, I’ll be glad to listen to it.

Nice to see you only read the first sentence. Perhaps read the rest.

The rest of your post did nothing to address the actual question either. So, not to be rude, but when you can answer the question, I’ll listen.

Sarrs.4831:

Hardcore content and hardcore players do a lot to help the game during these drought periods.

Explain in Excruciating detail.. how.

Sarrs.4831:

Who do you think recommends the game to their friends?

New players, infatuated with the game. Most “vets” already recommended the game to everyone they think would enjoy it, long before they became vets.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Hmm not sustainable but a lot of my friends and I are still here and so are many more and you can’t say raiders don’t have turn over new players wanton to raid come in all the time and leave the same as casuals so there goes that issue.

and the gearing aspect is a non issue since players can hear up in the required gear for any hard content minus high level fractals by logging in and Buying/crafting exotics from multiple game modes. With other MMOs like WoW yes gearing was an issue that doesn’t exist in this game as been proven with “hard” content ( raid clears in full exotics/ and by 5 man groups.) you don’t need the best in slot gear to compete in raids, and if you try to use the casuals aren’t as skillful as raiders would be another fallacy, since casuals is a title for a style of player not the skill of the player, if you try to rebuttal the gear argument for raids.

I always love these kinds of posts where people start off with talking about how the game needs hard, challenging content for their skilled elite vets, and then do a full reversal to try and say that the content is not really hard or challenging.

After 1380 replies…Does anyone in here actually have anything to say that has not been said before?
Or are you all just caught in a loop and repeating every word of previous discussions again and again?
I would bet even this question has already been asked, probably around the 900.

STIHL.2489:

Explain in Excruciating detail.. how.

Casual players lose interest during content droughts. Hardcore players are, by definition, not casual. That’s all there is to it.

STIHL.2489:

New players, infatuated with the game. Most “vets” already recommended the game to everyone they think would enjoy it, long before they became vets.

Astralporing.1957:

Mostly new players. Old players invited their friends long ago, and those friends either are already playing, no longer playing or never were going to play.

Well, I’m still recommending the game to friends all the time. Maybe I’m just more hardcore than you guys? :^)

Asrat.2645:

After 1380 replies…Does anyone in here actually have anything to say that has not been said before?

Yeah it’s all been said. I’m just here for the food.

STIHL.2489:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Hmm not sustainable but a lot of my friends and I are still here and so are many more and you can’t say raiders don’t have turn over new players wanton to raid come in all the time and leave the same as casuals so there goes that issue.

and the gearing aspect is a non issue since players can hear up in the required gear for any hard content minus high level fractals by logging in and Buying/crafting exotics from multiple game modes. With other MMOs like WoW yes gearing was an issue that doesn’t exist in this game as been proven with “hard” content ( raid clears in full exotics/ and by 5 man groups.) you don’t need the best in slot gear to compete in raids, and if you try to use the casuals aren’t as skillful as raiders would be another fallacy, since casuals is a title for a style of player not the skill of the player, if you try to rebuttal the gear argument for raids.

I always love these kinds of posts where people start off with talking about how the game needs hard, challenging content for their skilled elite vets, and then do a full reversal to try and say that the content is not really hard or challenging.

It’s harder than anything in game, you guys are the ones claiming it is so hard that it is inaccessible, which the hardest part is learning mechanics and do a rotation of phases, really not that hard but it is hard compared to the 1111 spam you are wanting to be in everything in game, it is challenging if you want the achievements for said content and as always the longer content is out it is no longer challenging because of player experience and developed SoPs for efficient clearing of said content. Hence why you can clear content with only 5 players or in the bare minimum gear required to be effective in raids.

STIHL.2489:

I always love these kinds of posts where people start off with talking about how the game needs hard, challenging content for their skilled elite vets, and then do a full reversal to try and say that the content is not really hard or challenging.

My guild got EU first Eternal (and I believe world second), have lots of veterans (like, beta ones) and run from dawn of GW2. And guess what? We have 2 raid teams atm, and even first (and best) one often have free slots, second team is usually struggling much more, even with team 1 usually being ready to help them. It’s less than 20 constantly (every week) raiding people from hundreds of guildmembers. I wonder where is those mythical guilds where everyone is raiding and eager to get their hands on new raiding content.

Rednik.3809:

My guild got EU first Eternal (and I believe world second), have lots of veterans (like, beta ones) and run from dawn of GW2. And guess what? We have 2 raid teams atm, and even first (and best) one often have free slots, second team is usually struggling much more, even with team 1 usually being ready to help them. It’s less than 20 constantly (every week) raiding people from hundreds of guildmembers. I wonder where is those mythical guilds where everyone is raiding and eager to get their hands on new raiding content.

idk but i just found at least 10 :^)

STIHL.2489:

Sarrs.4831:

Raids are contributing to player retention.

Can you prove this?

TexZero.7910:

Manthas.6234:

Put that in the corner with e-sports.

Which still retains more players than Silverwaste, so what are you actually trying to prove ?

Can you Prove this?

If you can prove these claims, with solid facts, that raid contribute to player retention as opposed to burnout or ‘kittening people off’ I’ll concede this entire discussion.

Sure how about here in this lovely video, where they are at a technical conference ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLslqhBn3PU

As to the person asking can i prove or show numbers, sure straight from Crystal herself….
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/48zlyd/im_mike_obrien_here_with_gw2_dev_team_ama/d0nwad9

Can you guys take your heads out of the sand now ?

Sarrs.4831:

idk but i just found at least 10 :^)

And how big they are?

TexZero.7910:

Sure how about here in this lovely video, where they are at a technical conference ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLslqhBn3PU

I don’t have unlimited Bandwith, so I am not going to stream a 30 min video, you just tell where they say that raids contribute to directly to player retention, and I’ll watch just that segment, if they say it, you win.

STIHL.2489:

TexZero.7910:

Sure how about here in this lovely video, where they are at a technical conference ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLslqhBn3PU

I don’t have unlimited Bandwith, so I am not going to stream a 30 min video, you just tell where they say that raids contribute to directly to player retention, and I’ll watch just that segment, if they say it, you win.

you quoted me replying to a player about PvP retaining players more than PvE. I gave you the video, watch it perhaps you’ll learn something.

TexZero.7910:

you quoted me replying to a player about PvP retaining players more than PvE. I gave you the video, watch it perhaps you’ll learn something.

Did you not understand me when I said I don’t have the bandwidth to stream a 30 min video?

STIHL.2489:

TexZero.7910:

you quoted me replying to a player about PvP retaining players more than PvE. I gave you the video, watch it perhaps you’ll learn something.

Did you not understand me when I said I don’t have the bandwidth to stream a 30 min video?

Did you not understand that you demanded proof, i’ve given it to you…my work here is done. Your choice to watch it or not.

STIHL.2489:

TexZero.7910:

you quoted me replying to a player about PvP retaining players more than PvE. I gave you the video, watch it perhaps you’ll learn something.

Did you not understand me when I said I don’t have the bandwidth to stream a 30 min video?

The video is there for others, not for you.

STIHL.2489:

IndigoSundown.5419:

STIHL.2489:

You respond to my question with a Question?

Well, when you have an answer, I’ll be glad to listen to it.

Nice to see you only read the first sentence. Perhaps read the rest.

The rest of your post did nothing to address the actual question either. So, not to be rude, but when you can answer the question, I’ll listen.

So, it’s that way. OK. Prove that raids have not helped sustain other MMO’s. You can’t without numbers, any more than I can.

Oh, wait, I can post numbers. At one point, there was the by now well-known post about WoW raids (back before LFR) being utilized by ~5% of the population. At least that’s the number I see raid haters post a lot. WOW’s high-water mark was 12M. 12M x .05 = 600,000 players. Subs are $15 per. $9M a month. Subtract half of that for reasons, like not all players paid the full sub (I’m being generous). $4.5M ultra-conservative estimate. That definitely helped sustain the game (remember, “helped” means “contributed to,” not, “was the mainstay of.”)

So, you got any numbers whatsoever to back up your assertion?

The fact is that any amount of money brought in by raids in any MMO helps to sustain that game unless the existence of raids costs them more money than it brings in. Some in this thread claim that raids cost GW2 a lot of players. I don’t see it. If the game is bleeding players, there are a lot of other causes that are more likely. Anecdotes do not equal proof.

STIHL.2489:

Sarrs.4831:

Raids are contributing to player retention.

Can you prove this?

TexZero.7910:

Which still retains more players than Silverwaste, so what are you actually trying to prove ?

Can you Prove this?

If you can prove these claims, with solid facts, that raid contribute to player retention as opposed to burnout or ‘kittening people off’ I’ll concede this entire discussion.

TexZero.7910:

Sure how about here in this lovely video, where they are at a technical conference ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLslqhBn3PU

This was before Raids were in the game, so i’m not sure how it is relevant.
As for “retains more players than silverwastes” claim, it’s also not there. The only info we get is a comparison between competitive and noncompetitive players on 1 to 1 basis. There’s no info about relative numbers of one group to the other and no comparison of groups as a whole.

TexZero.7910:

As to the person asking can i prove or show numbers, sure straight from Crystal herself….
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/48zlyd/im_mike_obrien_here_with_gw2_dev_team_ama/d0nwad9

Can you guys take your heads out of the sand now ?

I see no numbers about how many players raids retain in this game whatsoever. I see no number comparisons between pvp and other modes either.

TexZero.7910:

Did you not understand that you demanded proof, i’ve given it to you…my work here is done. Your choice to watch it or not.

This is what I demanded:

STIHL.2489:

If you can prove these claims, with solid facts, that raid contribute to player retention as opposed to burnout or ‘kittening people off’ I’ll concede this entire discussion.

If this video provides that, tell me where, otherwise you have added nothing to this discussion or to your stand.

srsly. it’s a really simple thing to share a youtube video with the minutes and seconds you want it to start at... just a little checkbox... or you can always just say "it’s 6 minutes and 25 seconds in." or whatever te kitten it really is. he said he had sucky internet and asked for where in the video the proof is, so he doesn’t have to suffer through watching the whole thing in a buffering queue because of poor internet... pony up, man... i’m interested too.

Astralporing.1957:

STIHL.2489:

Sarrs.4831:

Raids are contributing to player retention.

Can you prove this?

TexZero.7910:

Which still retains more players than Silverwaste, so what are you actually trying to prove ?

Can you Prove this?

If you can prove these claims, with solid facts, that raid contribute to player retention as opposed to burnout or ‘kittening people off’ I’ll concede this entire discussion.

TexZero.7910:

Sure how about here in this lovely video, where they are at a technical conference ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLslqhBn3PU

This was before Raids were in the game, so i’m not sure how it is relevant.

I was thinking the same thing. Seems like they are just grasping at straws now.

Astralporing.1957:

STIHL.2489:

Sarrs.4831:

Raids are contributing to player retention.

Can you prove this?

TexZero.7910:

Which still retains more players than Silverwaste, so what are you actually trying to prove ?

Can you Prove this?

If you can prove these claims, with solid facts, that raid contribute to player retention as opposed to burnout or ‘kittening people off’ I’ll concede this entire discussion.

TexZero.7910:

Sure how about here in this lovely video, where they are at a technical conference ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLslqhBn3PU

This was before Raids were in the game, so i’m not sure how it is relevant.
As for “retains more players than silverwastes” claim, it’s also not there. The only info we get is a comparison between competitive and noncompetitive players on 1 to 1 basis. There’s no info about relative numbers of one group to the other and no comparison of groups as a whole.

TexZero.7910:

As to the person asking can i prove or show numbers, sure straight from Crystal herself….
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/48zlyd/im_mike_obrien_here_with_gw2_dev_team_ama/d0nwad9

Can you guys take your heads out of the sand now ?

I see no numbers about how many players raids retain in this game whatsoever. I see no number comparisons between pvp and other modes either.

You are taking two different topics into account so let me simplify this for you.

The video was in response to a player saying PvP doesnt retain players more than PvE. Video proof otherwise plus charts and graphs withing showcasing this.

You asked for anytime anet has said anything with numbers, in regards to a previous conversation about people working on raids, i’ve provided the numbers in regards to that.

To the people who claim their internet is so bad they can’t watch a youtube video…Get real, you have enough time to be here posting and to play the game you have enough internet to watch a video. So either watch it, or stop complaining for sources. Thanks.