Guild Wars 2

Broadicea.8294:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

That’s the thing: when Robert talked about skipping, he specifically said he doesn’t condone it. He spends the whole post talking about ways to fix the problem, and how previous game designs just created a different problem. The whole community segregation thing is just a temporary solution until Robert could find a way to please both worlds. But he’s gone now, so gates ahoy!

Who cares.

@BRA

Are you talking about the robert quote posted earlier? If so

1) Robert never said he “doesn’t condone skipping”. Nowhere in his whole statement does he talk about his preference towards the population skipping or not.

2) Robert does not talk about other game designs. If you’re talking about previous GW2 game designs, he also doesn’t talk about that, other than saying it didn’t work to make trash rewarding.

3) Robert specifically does say that the best solution (at the time) was to find like minded people. Form a guild and try to play with them. This is the opposite of what people are doing today and complaining about.

I said who cares because who cares what anet intended. who cares. who cares!

Broadicea.8294:

I said who cares because who cares what anet intended. who cares. who cares!

Sorry, it wasn’t at you. I edited my post.

I don’t like to quote out of line, sorry for the confusion…. I am a mesmer though.

Ethics.4519:

Broadicea.8294:

I said who cares because who cares what anet intended. who cares. who cares!

Sorry, it wasn’t at you. I edited my post.

I don’t like to quote out of line, sorry for the confusion…. I am a mesmer though.

no worries

Who cares.

That’s a fair point.
I think people like to use intention to help get an idea of where things are going…but the new dungeon kind of made the direction clear. So picking apart Hrouda’s post is a pretty academic discussion.

@Ethics
Eh? So why’re you at odds with me on this?
My position on skipping is pretty, uh, hard to summarize beyond a general sense that we’ve been given enough rope to hang ourselves with. But it’s definitely not taking a totalitarian stance on fighting everything, and it’s not like I’ve ever tried to justify my positions with that flimsy little PR gem.

Vox Hollow.2736:

Who cares.

That’s a fair point.
I think people like to use intention to help get an idea of where things are going…but the new dungeon kind of made the direction clear. So picking apart Hrouda’s post is a pretty academic discussion.

@Ethics
Eh? So why’re you at odds with me on this?
My position on skipping is pretty, uh, hard to summarize beyond a general sense that we’ve been given enough rope to hang ourselves with. But it’s definitely not taking a totalitarian stance on fighting everything, and it’s not like I’ve ever tried to justify my positions with that flimsy little PR gem.

We seem to be beating around a similar bush. My most recent comment was at blood.

My only issue with anything you’ve said was when you stated that removing leashing would be too much work. We’ve already discussed that and it’s a moot point anyway.

It’s not ‘too much work’, it’s just not the most cost-productive solution.

Look, I’m not about to explain software development from top to bottom to get you to understand my point. So, we’re going to have to leave it at a friendly ‘agree to disagree’. Okay by you?

Vox Hollow.2736:

It’s not ‘too much work’, it’s just not the most cost-productive solution.

Look, I’m not about to explain software development from top to bottom to get you to understand my point. So, we’re going to have to leave it at a friendly ‘agree to disagree’. Okay by you?

Lol, you’re the one who brought it up again when you asked why we differed opinions? I wasn’t even talking to you with the other comment I made. Which is why it said @BRA….

I had already left it alone when you brought it back up. Not to mention “We’ve already discussed it and it’s a moot point anyway” is already saying that we agree to disagree. Not sure what other reassurance you need.

Yes Vox. I have nothing else to discuss with you. We agree to disagree.

I totally misinterpreted your ‘moot point anyway’.
My apologies.

Vox Hollow.2736:

I totally misinterpreted your ‘moot point anyway’.
My apologies.

No worries. I meant it as A Cow’s Opinion

People skip dungeon trash for one reason – the reward/effort ratio for killing them simply isn’t worth it.

For people to not skip trash, you can:
- Decrease the time it takes to kill them
- Increase the reward for killing them
- Make them required for dungeon progression

So, I think, if Arenanet wants to encourage more people to kill trash (which, the design of the more recent encounters seems to require), the following are some options:
- Every elite mob dropped 3 dungeon tokens
- Every elite mob dropped a certain amount of karma
- Every elite mob is downgraded to a normal mob
- Killing everything in a dungeon counts as a “vanquish” which adds bonus rewards to the end (similar to GW1)

Honestly… Skipping past stuff is fun. It’s a type of challenge, seeing if you can apply game and class knowledge well enough to not die. Once you can do it without dying, you try do it faster than the rest of your party. I don’t care what anyone says; even if the trash was super lucrative to kill, I would still skip it.

Ethics.4519:

Broadicea.8294:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

That’s the thing: when Robert talked about skipping, he specifically said he doesn’t condone it. He spends the whole post talking about ways to fix the problem, and how previous game designs just created a different problem. The whole community segregation thing is just a temporary solution until Robert could find a way to please both worlds. But he’s gone now, so gates ahoy!

Who cares.

@BRA

Are you talking about the robert quote posted earlier? If so

1) Robert never said he “doesn’t condone skipping”. Nowhere in his whole statement does he talk about his preference towards the population skipping or not.

2) Robert does not talk about other game designs. If you’re talking about previous GW2 game designs, he also doesn’t talk about that, other than saying it didn’t work to make trash rewarding.

3) Robert specifically does say that the best solution (at the time) was to find like minded people. Form a guild and try to play with them. This is the opposite of what people are doing today and complaining about.

1)Considering that his entire post is spent detailing “human nature”, then mentions that he keeps leashing only because it is inelegant to remove it, then talks about how they’re attempting to balance the content so less people would skip, then encourages people to find others to not skip, then says he himself tries to avoid skipping, his stance is pretty clear.

2)Previous game designs. In this post, he mentions that around launch for GW2 there was an issue with players just doing the first boss and restarting the dungeon, and how this was changed to stop this problem, and that they’re afraid of buffing “trash mob” rewards for fear that this would happen again.

3)Robert says the best solution is to adjust the rewards of early game content. However, as that solution is hard to execute,, he recommends, and I quote: “For now I would encourage those not looking to skip…”, emphasis mine.

For people to somehow get the notion of widespread condolences from his post is beyond me.

blood red sociologist strikes again

The funny thing is, if you say he’s saying something different, then you’re being a sociologist, too, with the added benefit of being a hypocrite.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

I don’t care what anyone says; even if the trash was super lucrative to kill, I would still skip it.

No, you wouldn’t.

Actually, I’m pretty sure he skips the billion and one champions in Arah p3 that are easy kills and very lucrative.

colesy.8490:

Actually, I’m pretty sure he skips the billion and one champions in Arah p3 that are easy kills and very lucrative.

I do, I cry every time someone asks to kill the spider before Magecrusher, or the 3 giants at the end.

but I’m glad that AntiGW knows more about me than I do. He must be a cool guy.

Psychics are always cool.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

The funny thing is, if you say he’s saying something different, then you’re being a sociologist, too, with the added benefit of being a hypocrite.

See, the funny thing with this post of yours is:

- You’re not wrong.

- You made your point using only 2 sentences.

- You added an insult in there.

It seems like you’re adapting our ways.

For those who refuse to skip: do you also need to kill all your opponent’s pieces in chess before going for the king?

Lord Kuru.3685:

For those who refuse to skip: do you also need to kill all your opponent’s pieces in chess before going for the king?

Chess is not about killing pieces, it’s about controlling the board. If you go for the king without controlling the board, then yes you need to take pretty much every single one of his pieces. Otherwise they’ll take your king instead.

Your analogy is silly because in dungeons you don’t control any of the areas that you skip, and you also don’t kill anything. You run into a dungeon, and magically pass through the entire army that defends it as if it wasn’t even there. Then proceed to kill the final boss, while the entire army that you just skipped magically forgets about you and goes about their business.

That means that you are taking advantage of bad AI and poor game mechanics, so don’t bother make idiotic excuses. Either the dungeon mechanics need to be improved, or the mobs should be unskippable. Until the dev schedule schedule allows them to address that, they temporarily let cheesers cheese. But it doesn’t make it any less cheesy.

Just curious, AntiGw, why don’t you form your own parties and just advertise “not skipping” in it? Wouldn’t that save you a lot of heartache and frustration in dealing with people who expect to skip?

AntiGw.9367:

Chess is not about killing pieces, it’s about controlling the board. If you go for the king without controlling the board, then yes you need to take pretty much every single one of his pieces. Otherwise they’ll take your king instead.

Your analogy is silly because in dungeons you don’t control any of the areas that you skip, and you also don’t kill anything. You run into a dungeon, and magically pass through the entire army that defends it as if it wasn’t even there. Then proceed to kill the final boss, while the entire army that you just skipped magically forgets about you and goes about their business.

That means that you are taking advantage of bad AI and poor game mechanics, so don’t bother make idiotic excuses. Either the dungeon mechanics need to be improved, or the mobs should be unskippable. Until the dev schedule schedule allows them to address that, they temporarily let cheesers cheese. But it doesn’t make it any less cheesy.

Do you even have a clue who will get mostly punished if they make mobs unskippable without reducing their hp 2-3 times and improving their loot tables? Even the dev anet fired knew it. You apparently do not know it.

haviz.1340:

Do you even have a clue who will get mostly punished if they make mobs unskippable without reducing their hp 2-3 times and improving their loot tables? Even the dev anet fired knew it. You apparently do not know it.

Everyone that is used to getting loot without fighting the mobs.

If they’ve learned a lesson when comes to istances from GW1, is that players min/maxing and speedrunning will find a way around any kind of impediment you’ll trow at them.
As long as you don’t remove the whole package making it possible as whole, ofc, but that’s not really an argument.

Normal clearing teams will experience the same kind of impediment, but won’t have tools to counter them.

Thus, at the end, they get the short end of the stick.

Think at Skeletons of Dhuum alone. They made this kind on mob able to ignore every single protective spell/ability in the game – only to counter/slow down tank Speedclearing builds with spell immunity.
Result: speedclear changed to skip/ignore/glitch/lure and tank in safespots/order of priority in killing mobs, and moved over.
“Normal” teams got another very annoying mob to deal with in a UW run.

AntiGw.9367:

haviz.1340:

Do you even have a clue who will get mostly punished if they make mobs unskippable without reducing their hp 2-3 times and improving their loot tables? Even the dev anet fired knew it. You apparently do not know it.

Everyone that is used to getting loot without fighting the mobs.

Bads who can’t DPS fast enough will be punished. Make everything in Arah unskippable and it would be even more of a wasteland than it already is.

Experienced players will just stack and burst everything like they always do, you’ll just be making things a little slower.

AntiGw.9367:

Everyone that is used to getting loot without fighting the mobs.

Clueless as ever.

haviz.1340:

AntiGw.9367:

Everyone that is used to getting loot without fighting the mobs.

Clueless as ever.

OMG DIS SUPEREORATEH CUMPLAX

You can get annoyed when someone spews so much bullkitten. Colesy pretty much nailed it, good dps groups will be a little slower while typical pug that currently skips will be much slower. And all of that for couple of porous bones.

I think that is why they are preempting with the zerker hate topics.

colesy.8490:

AntiGw.9367:

haviz.1340:

Do you even have a clue who will get mostly punished if they make mobs unskippable without reducing their hp 2-3 times and improving their loot tables? Even the dev anet fired knew it. You apparently do not know it.

Everyone that is used to getting loot without fighting the mobs.

Bads who can’t DPS fast enough will be punished. Make everything in Arah unskippable and it would be even more of a wasteland than it already is.

Experienced players will just stack and burst everything like they always do, you’ll just be making things a little slower.

Not everything should be unskippable. Just the mobs that were put there for you to fight and not skip.

who are you to judge which mobs (that are present in current dungeons) are meant to be fought?

I have to be somebody to judge which mobs (that are present in current dungeons) are meant to be fought?

What about a more forgiving version of the Vanquishing mechanic from GW1? Essentially if you kill most (90%?) of the trash in a dungeon, you get a bit of bonus coin/karma/yellow item as a secondary reward at the end. Scaled to the amount of trash along that path and how long it takes, obviously.

Make it less efficient than skipping in terms of gold/time, but it gives some reward for murdering everything and dawdling. You could even make it tiered rather than all-or-nothing, but I’d suggest requiring every boss to prevent at least some weird abuses of the system. I’d quite like it as a way to reintroduce karma rewards to dungeons.

NB: I am bad at the game, don’t care for efficiency that much and pug a lot, so my opinion is not worth much and doesn’t fall strongly on either side anyway. The only reason I encourage killing some trash packs is if people (often me) are bad at skipping them, but I’m fine with slaughtering more or less of the dungeon depending on what the group wants.

If mobs in arah don’t leash…

“LF1m Thief 4 Arah 3/2. (Must know how to skip with SR and SS)”

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

“For now I would encourage those not looking to skip…”, emphasis mine.

Then people need to stop joining other people’s party and DEMANDING to kill everything.

You’re toting his post like you’re inside his mind, yet you’re defending people who come on here and do the opposite of what it outright says.

Lol Nike, Then they will just have to make mobs see through stealth.

AntiGw.9367:

haviz.1340:

Do you even have a clue who will get mostly punished if they make mobs unskippable without reducing their hp 2-3 times and improving their loot tables? Even the dev anet fired knew it. You apparently do not know it.

Everyone that is used to getting loot without fighting the mobs.

Flew right over your head. Right. Over. it.

swiftpaw.6397:

AntiGw.9367:

haviz.1340:

Do you even have a clue who will get mostly punished if they make mobs unskippable without reducing their hp 2-3 times and improving their loot tables? Even the dev anet fired knew it. You apparently do not know it.

Everyone that is used to getting loot without fighting the mobs.

Flew right over your head. Right. Over. it.

Over it

AntiGw.9367:

haviz.1340:

Do you even have a clue who will get mostly punished if they make mobs unskippable without reducing their hp 2-3 times and improving their loot tables? Even the dev anet fired knew it. You apparently do not know it.

Everyone that is used to getting loot without fighting the mobs.

Did you play GW1? If not, I’ll give some examples as to why you are so wrong.

Underworld was an elite area that was incredibly unbalanced at some point in time, because speedclearers, the experienced ones, were clearing it in 7-10 minutes. This was broken, without a doubt. PUGs were clearing it in about 20-30 minutes, because usually, at least someone failed.

So, Anet decided to nerf UW (something that had to be done), but they specifically wanted to cripple speedclearers, so they added some new mobs and a new endboss. Now, take a wild guess who was holding the short end of the stick after the update. It sure as hell wasn’t the speedclearers. The experienced ones were still clearing it in 25-35 minutes, using similar tactics and builds that they used before. PUGs were doing it in 45mins-1h, provided they didn’t fail and get kicked out of the area.

People that didn’t do the speedclear setups, and used normal builds, were physically almost unable to do it, because of the endboss. There was a hero build to clear UW in Normal Mode, that involved a lot of micro’ing and a lot of skill. So basically, the people that got punished the hardest were the ones that cried for the nerf of UW the hardest.

In DoA (another elite area), every area was gated in some way unless you killed the appropriate mobs (all of city, the beginning of foundry, gloom cave and veil 360). Guess who was having a hard time doing those areas? It sure as hell weren’t the people that speedcleared it (us).

Go ahead, remove leashing, or make skipping impossible. You’ll slow us down, for sure. But the people that will be slowed down the most are people like you. We’ll find a way to do it as efficient and fast as possible, as we always do. You on the other hand, will be spending a lot of time in a simple dungeon path.

So what you are saying is, they tried to fix this problem in GW2, and their solution wasn’t perfect.

And that also shows that it is in fact considered to be a problem by Arena.net, for all those who still somehow doubt that.

AntiGw.9367:

So what you are saying is, they tried to fix this problem in GW2, and their solution wasn’t perfect.

And that also shows that it is in fact considered to be a problem by Arena.net, for all those who still somehow doubt that.

No, I’m saying that, no matter what they try to do, the BHB’s are always going to hold the short end of the stick.

The people they’re targeting (usually the speedclear community) are always going to be the fastest and the most efficient at something because of their organization, collective theorycrafting, and skill. If they want to slow them down, they’ll just end up slowing down the other players even more.

Sure, the new TA has gating, but the healthbars were reduced. Who’s being slowed down more? The people that burst down the foes in the room in mere seconds, or the people that require a couple of minutes to clear the room?

AntiGw.9367:

So what you are saying is, they tried to fix this problem in GW2, and their solution wasn’t perfect.

And that also shows that it is in fact considered to be a problem by Arena.net, for all those who still somehow doubt that.

Nobody cares about who is the fastest and most efficient at playing this game.

Except us, but ok.

AntiGw.9367:

Nobody cares about who is the fastest and most efficient at playing this game.

I have almost 1,000 subscribers to my youtube channel and close to 400 followers on Twitch, so clearly at least a few people do.

AntiGw.9367:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

AntiGw.9367:

Nobody cares about who is the fastest and most efficient at playing this game.

I have almost 1,000 subscribers to my youtube channel and close to 400 followers on Twitch, so clearly at least a few people do.

Nobody cares how big your virtual reproductive organ is either.

The point of that post was…

No, the point was that you said “nobody cares” and I presented evidence to the contrary. Rather than admit you were wrong, you doubled down and threw a personal insult at me while still defending your incorrect point.

People are interested in speed clear records. People are interested in meta builds. People are interested in learning new tactics they can use in their casual runs. Everybody? Nope. A lot of people? Yes.

You make a lot of sweeping statements that are patently untrue, and consequently derive increasingly shaky conclusions from them. Perhaps you should scale back your rhetoric and concern yourself with making coherent points that will actually stand up against the first criticism someone offers.

So far this is what’s going on.

AntiGW: “Blanket inaccurate statement with no background or point”
Nike: “Evidence refuting the arguement”
AntiGW: “I’m right and you’re a poopey head!”
Nike: shakes head

AntiGw.9367:

I have to be somebody to judge which mobs (that are present in current dungeons) are meant to be fought?

You aren’t. That’s guan’s point. That you completely missed.

Hrouda actually talked about why he put leashing in the dungeons. ANet has to consider many player types and skill ranges when they make content. Everyone is rightly pointing out that if you make things a bit tougher for the pragmatist that goes in for efficient clears, it is multiplicatively more challenging for the unorganized Puggers.

Your points that stand on “Nobody should skip fights that are meant to be fought” fails because you don’t have the authority to decide which fights are meant to be fought.