Guild Wars 2

Lately it’s been difficult finding groups that actually want to run a full dungeon. Most of the time, groups are just skipping content or utilizing cheap tactics (such as stacking on each other to prevent damage). I’m aware that we should be reporting things like the stacking etc. but as for skipping content downright, isn’t there a way to prevent this?

I can’t ever seem to find groups that want to actually play out the dungeon in full, and it’s aggravating. It’s always the easy paths + skip and repeat for daily. Granted it saves time, but it also diminishes the value of tokens and loot. There has to be something you guys can do to break this conventional wisdom.

It’s even more frustrating because people are sticking to this mindset and now it’s even more difficult to get a group going for the harder and longer paths. If people can’t skip enough or if it isn’t short enough, then it’s not worth people’s time. . .what a terrible system for dungeons.

1, the easy dungeons have a grind like feel to them because they are easy, and so people dont want to watch the same cut sense 3 times aday or kill th same mob 3 times more when u can simply run past the mob. if u want peopl to do content u hav to make it nonskipable and make it feel like its worth it, IE simply putting mobs isnt wworth it, where as a boss is. and imo peopl e complain about skipping first boss in AC i think if they didnt want u to skip it they woulda fixxed that allready…

2. the reason people dont run the lnger ungeons is because the reward is the same… im all for longer harder dungeons but i wan it to feel like it s worth it. grant ther is fun in doing a diffcult dungeon butalot of us have limited tim in game so taking 2 hours in arah for 60 token when u can do 3 AC’s and get 180 and get ur set 3 times faster.

I’m sorry but what’s so interesting about killing trash mobs anyway? I have seen more than enough threads like your’s all saying the same thing. After like 10 runs or so, you get sick of killing the same trash over and over with no benefit whatsoever. Even bosses usually can take like 5-10min while dropping a couple of blues,maybe greens 90% of the time. Wanting to be efficient with your time is actually smart, you should definitely try it. I can do one path in 20 min and get the SAME amount of rewards as another path that will take double the time. After you beat the harder version of a particular dungeon, it is safe to say, i am good enough to do it but why should i? Give people more rewards for harder/longer dungeons, better drops from trash mobs and you’ll see how fast that “mentality” will go away…

Pretty sure this addressess part the OP’s complaint

It’s not a new mind set though and has been happening since the beginning of loot based RPG’s (have many not-so-fond memories myself of fighting my way to Ol’ Diablo in tristram only to be passed by a Warrior in full Whale plate with Apoc staff who just wanted to steal the boss kill to troll everyone else who wanted a shot at better gear).

Then why are trash mobs there? Is it supposed to be some kind of “strategy” to run through them until they reset? From what you describe Kerrigan a dungeon should just be a run from a start line to a finish line. It might be more efficient that way but is it actually fun?

Wasselin.1235:

Then why are trash mobs there? Is it supposed to be some kind of “strategy” to run through them until they reset? From what you describe Kerrigan a dungeon should just be a run from a start line to a finish line. It might be more efficient that way but is it actually fun?

It’s how it has always been since GW1, and I guess a lot of new people caught on to it after running with GW1 players. When there are no world first achievements and no gear progression the only way to tell how good someone is at doing something is how efficient they are at doing it.

The Speed Clearing community was probably the most disliked and misunderstood community in GW1, and it looks like they already are in GW2 with 20 new threads exactly like this popping up on various forums every week.

But guess what? Don’t like it? Don’t do it!

EDIT: And yes people obviously think it’s fun >.<

The experience was fun the first time, but who can honestly say after 10 runs they aren’t sick of Risen Illusionists? For people who have their Dungeon Masters and for efficient seeking players in general. Being able fit in 9 dungeon paths in three hours thus is MUCH more fun than taking three hours to do 1 long boring path.

Especially when the 1 hour easy mode dynamic event farming at 2g+ much more karma is more profitable than even the 1 hour speed clear of all three paths of AC that gives the most gain at 1.5g+ and only 5640 karma. Rewards of normal dungeon running is tiny in comparison and nil or negative if landing in a terrible PuG.

Didn’t speed clear in Gw1 cos RNG determined whether you got your Froggy/BDS/Emerald Edge and I hate RNG. Naturally I now subsequently hate the Mystic Toilet /insert I’ve played for >9000 hours and still no precursor whine.

If I can choose between doing a bit of dynamic event farming with fun people, and making roughly 6 gold and tons of dyes… or doing a dungeon for several hours, with frustrated people, insane armor repair costs and simply terrible game play and terrible rewards… yeah, I think I’ll stick with the 6 gold. Those tokens are not worth the pain.

I’m not surprised it is very hard to find people willing to do dungeons, even if the game is only just out. I’ve played the dungeons, completed lots of them. I don’t want to do them any more. I prefer to have fun. Almost all of the dungeon runs I’ve been in, even the successful ones, ended with an angry: “I’m never doing this again!” -on behalf of my entire party.

Just form your group. Make clear before the dungeon begin how you want to play. If you do it with a partner with same mindset will be easier. Who answer “no skip? forget it” , kick out. Who said ok and start to run alone the dungeon, kick. Who goes offline until the boss while you kill adds, kick. Easy isn’t it.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

If I can choose between doing a bit of dynamic event farming with fun people, and making roughly 6 gold and tons of dyes… or doing a dungeon for several hours, with frustrated people, insane armor repair costs and simply terrible game play and terrible rewards… yeah, I think I’ll stick with the 6 gold. Those tokens are not worth the pain.

I’m not surprised it is very hard to find people willing to do dungeons, even if the game is only just out. I’ve played the dungeons, completed lots of them. I don’t want to do them any more. I prefer to have fun. Almost all of the dungeon runs I’ve been in, even the successful ones, ended with and angry: “I’m never doing this again!” -on behalf of my entire party.

This is really the core of the problem right now. When everyone in a dungeon knows they could be getting more useful rewards for time spent and they know that the unpredictable, dynamic nature of the outside world is generally more fun, it’s hard to see a dungeon run as more than a chore to get X tokens for something you cannot get any other way. (Such as 500 tokens for a specific legendary, or X tokens for a specific weapon or armor piece with stats you cannot get any other way. For example, a guardian wanting a Power/Tough/Vit helm has no choice but to grind AC or SE for enough tokens to buy the AC or SE heavy helm.)

Every time I start running around in some place like Malchor’s Leap looking for omnomberries only to find myself pulled into really interesting dynamic events such as unlocking the two Cathedrals there, and more than an hour later finally looking for omnomberries again, only to get pulled into a new DE….

… I ask myself whether that AC helm or that AC staff I want is really worth it. More and more I’m leaning towards getting my 500 tokens needed for Twilight, and then just walking away from dungeons except for when a guildmate really needs X tokens for something important they can’t get any other way.

One of the other differences is, you can literally go into Cursed Shore at any time, and join a random group of people to farm with. I find myself constantly putting things on the auction house, and receiving the profit minutes later. Sometimes dynamic events will overlap, leading to even more fun. And on top of that, you also earn money for completing the dynamic events themselves.

Why hasn’t this design been extended to dungeons? Outside the dungeon we try to kill as many enemies as possible, especially big mobs… but inside dungeons we try to avoid as many mobs as possible….? There’s clearly something wrong here.

Perhaps the dungeons would be more fun if the enemies had less health, better rewards, and included dynamic events with optional greater rewards. Perhaps dungeons like Arah should be more like Cursed Shore, where a random group can easily wander in and farm mobs of enemies and dynamic events, and eventually decide to tackle a hard boss? In fact, why not make dungeons more like explorables? Explorables are way more fun. The whole process of having to gather a small group of people, and then make your way through a linear path with way too strong bosses and poor rewards, seems just wrong from the ground up.

I know people like a good challenge. But how about making it fun first? And then worrying about the challenge aspect?

Wouldn’t a dungeon like Arah be way more enjoyable if it was an open explorable, with bosses occasionally spawning, and allowing anyone to join in?

Some of the bosses in Cursed Shore and Malchors Leap show that they can still be challenging, even if tons of players are allowed to participate. And the rewards are far better.

Maybe the new update will bring us something like this. Keep hoping

Actually I think that was what a lot of people expected when they heard “explorable mode”. Imagine wandering around in Arah or AC, without any restrictions. There would be puzzles like;

While exploring you randomly stumble upon a boss. That boss, when killed, drops a charged core, you don’t know what to do with it first. But somewhere else in the dungeon there is a power cell in which you can place the core which would in turn open up a door to an entirely new area of the dungeon. The group would have to figure these kinds of stuff out for themselves. Of course, if you wanted to, you could go to the Acolyte of Melandru and chop down the trees that spawn during the encounter, which a huntsman could then use to build a small ladder that would let you climb that door instead. This would all be done in a non-linear way; the power cell and door might very well be placed somewhere at the start of dungeon, and of course this door wouldn’t be the only way to progress in the dungeons.

Instead of the crappy rewards that chests have now, each chest would provide unique rewards, so that there wouldn’t be “that one” path that is the most efficient way of farming.

Random DE’s could also occur throughout the dungeon, which would encourage you to explore every nook of it. For example the crashed aircraft in Jotun path. Why not make it a DE to defend the pilot while he / she repairs it? If you succeed, you are flown off to another part of the dungeon. If not, maybe the pilot managed to craft some sort of explosive out of the fuel which lets you blow up a wall that then takes you to another boss?

This is what I wanted from dungeons in GW2. The current linear design just gets extremely tedious after the Nth dungeon…

I really like those ideas. That sounds exactly like what I was hoping to see in GW2’s dungeons. Basically they could be a lot like Underworld of Fissure of Woe in GW1, but with dynamic events instead of linear quests. And perhaps a reward or chest could appear for every dynamic event that is completed succesfully, much like in GW1 (but with better rewards).

I also think dungeons could be a lot more fun if they weren’t restricted to 5 players. Just make them open to anyone. I know the challenge comes from the 5 player restriction and finely tuned boss encounters, especially in Arah as it is now… but I don’t find it all that fun. Playing with more ( random) people, and not having this linear path is far more enjoyable.

I hope the designers take note, seeing there’s a new dungeon on its way, as well as improvements to the current dungeons.

no really, i hate skiping mobs, but you just have to, it’s not only boring fighting the same mobs over and over.

but i am sick of hitting 1 all day and occasionally other numbers, i liked gw1 where you could ACTUALLY customize your build to make it more fun. but now, i have to follow someone elses cookie cutter build

When trash takes longer amounts of time and has no real noticeable improvement to the drop rates… then surprise people will skip it whenever the opportunity presents itself. If cores, lodestones, platinum doubloons and other such stuff dropped more frequently off trash, you’d probably have folks more interested in trash.

Gab Superstar.4059:

Actually I think that was what a lot of people expected when they heard “explorable mode”. Imagine wandering around in Arah or AC, without any restrictions. There would be puzzles like;

While exploring you randomly stumble upon a boss. That boss, when killed, drops a charged core, you don’t know what to do with it first. But somewhere else in the dungeon there is a power cell in which you can place the core which would in turn open up a door to an entirely new area of the dungeon. The group would have to figure these kinds of stuff out for themselves. Of course, if you wanted to, you could go to the Acolyte of Melandru and chop down the trees that spawn during the encounter, which a huntsman could then use to build a small ladder that would let you climb that door instead. This would all be done in a non-linear way; the power cell and door might very well be placed somewhere at the start of dungeon, and of course this door wouldn’t be the only way to progress in the dungeons.

Instead of the crappy rewards that chests have now, each chest would provide unique rewards, so that there wouldn’t be “that one” path that is the most efficient way of farming.

Random DE’s could also occur throughout the dungeon, which would encourage you to explore every nook of it. For example the crashed aircraft in Jotun path. Why not make it a DE to defend the pilot while he / she repairs it? If you succeed, you are flown off to another part of the dungeon. If not, maybe the pilot managed to craft some sort of explosive out of the fuel which lets you blow up a wall that then takes you to another boss?

This is what I wanted from dungeons in GW2. The current linear design just gets extremely tedious after the Nth dungeon…

I want to play this type of dungeon, lol. That sounds like a perfect fit for the rest of the GW2 look and feel in open world PvE.

Anet: you should hire this guy as a dungeon designer. ^.^

Additionally, various parts of the dungeon could randomly open and close, in order to encourage players to move to other parts of the dungeon. Dungeons could still contain fiendish traps and challenging opponents, but you’d be able to tackle them with tons of people, and also help each other out.

And lets be fair, would you rather be fighting Zhaitan with 5 people, or 50 people? What scenario seems like a more epic conclusion?

In GW1, some of the dungeon chests had weapon skins that were very desirable, and could not be gotten anywhere else. Even if you got items that that would be ID’d and then sold to a merchant, you at least got “gold” items that counted towards a title. The blues and greens that drop from dungeon chests are just minor cash. I’ve only gotten about 1500 dungeon tokens all told, but no drop in a dungeon has actually been worth more than the npc merchant would pay for it.

Gab Superstar, you are my hero. That is what I wanted from dungeons without even knowing I wanted it from dungeons.

Plus your name is awesome.

Gab Superstar.4059:

Actually I think that was what a lot of people expected when they heard “explorable mode”. Imagine wandering around in Arah or AC, without any restrictions. There would be puzzles like;

While exploring you randomly stumble upon a boss. That boss, when killed, drops a charged core, you don’t know what to do with it first. But somewhere else in the dungeon there is a power cell in which you can place the core which would in turn open up a door to an entirely new area of the dungeon. The group would have to figure these kinds of stuff out for themselves. Of course, if you wanted to, you could go to the Acolyte of Melandru and chop down the trees that spawn during the encounter, which a huntsman could then use to build a small ladder that would let you climb that door instead. This would all be done in a non-linear way; the power cell and door might very well be placed somewhere at the start of dungeon, and of course this door wouldn’t be the only way to progress in the dungeons.

Instead of the crappy rewards that chests have now, each chest would provide unique rewards, so that there wouldn’t be “that one” path that is the most efficient way of farming.

Random DE’s could also occur throughout the dungeon, which would encourage you to explore every nook of it. For example the crashed aircraft in Jotun path. Why not make it a DE to defend the pilot while he / she repairs it? If you succeed, you are flown off to another part of the dungeon. If not, maybe the pilot managed to craft some sort of explosive out of the fuel which lets you blow up a wall that then takes you to another boss?

This is what I wanted from dungeons in GW2. The current linear design just gets extremely tedious after the Nth dungeon…

Fully agreed. When they first mentioned Explorable Mode I thought of it being grandiose Gw1 explorable instanes packed with fun and exploration, not linear paths that just encourages. Randomness of events would’ve been great here to keep things fresh. Too bad they placed RNG in unfun places instead (mystic toilet cough cough). We are so misled

Gab Superstar.4059:

Wasselin.1235:

Then why are trash mobs there? Is it supposed to be some kind of “strategy” to run through them until they reset? From what you describe Kerrigan a dungeon should just be a run from a start line to a finish line. It might be more efficient that way but is it actually fun?

It’s how it has always been since GW1, and I guess a lot of new people caught on to it after running with GW1 players. When there are no world first achievements and no gear progression the only way to tell how good someone is at doing something is how efficient they are at doing it.

The Speed Clearing community was probably the most disliked and misunderstood community in GW1, and it looks like they already are in GW2 with 20 new threads exactly like this popping up on various forums every week.

But guess what? Don’t like it? Don’t do it!

EDIT: And yes people obviously think it’s fun >.<

I get that speed clearing could be fun— I just disagree that it’s fun to run past mobs. Sneaking past a few mob packs can be fun, without aggroing them, but running through them until they reset just seems completely unintended behavior to me.

A group that knows which packs to avoid and has a strategy for killing the mobs they can’t avoid aggroing should be rewarded. A speed clear should be a measure of skill, not a measure of how fast you can run through mobs until they reset.

Wasselin.1235:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Wasselin.1235:

Then why are trash mobs there? Is it supposed to be some kind of “strategy” to run through them until they reset? From what you describe Kerrigan a dungeon should just be a run from a start line to a finish line. It might be more efficient that way but is it actually fun?

It’s how it has always been since GW1, and I guess a lot of new people caught on to it after running with GW1 players. When there are no world first achievements and no gear progression the only way to tell how good someone is at doing something is how efficient they are at doing it.

The Speed Clearing community was probably the most disliked and misunderstood community in GW1, and it looks like they already are in GW2 with 20 new threads exactly like this popping up on various forums every week.

But guess what? Don’t like it? Don’t do it!

EDIT: And yes people obviously think it’s fun >.<

I get that speed clearing could be fun— I just disagree that it’s fun to run past mobs. Sneaking past a few mob packs can be fun, without aggroing them, but running through them until they reset just seems completely unintended behavior to me.

A group that knows which packs to avoid and has a strategy for killing the mobs they can’t avoid aggroing should be rewarded. A speed clear should be a measure of skill, not a measure of how fast you can run through mobs until they reset.

It’s called leashing, and there is absolutely no reason to kill most of the trash in the dungeons. No significant drops, they’re just normal enemies with 100x the health wasting your time. If it’s possible to cut down the time of the dungeon, without any negative impact on rewards, please tell me how this is wrong? If it was unintended to run past trash, why is it even possible and why has no dev ever stated that it was wrong or unintended?

Blackmoon.6837:

Lately it’s been difficult finding groups that actually want to run a full dungeon. Most of the time, groups are just skipping content or utilizing cheap tactics (such as stacking on each other to prevent damage). I’m aware that we should be reporting things like the stacking etc. but as for skipping content downright, isn’t there a way to prevent this?

I can’t ever seem to find groups that want to actually play out the dungeon in full, and it’s aggravating. It’s always the easy paths + skip and repeat for daily. Granted it saves time, but it also diminishes the value of tokens and loot. There has to be something you guys can do to break this conventional wisdom.

It’s even more frustrating because people are sticking to this mindset and now it’s even more difficult to get a group going for the harder and longer paths. If people can’t skip enough or if it isn’t short enough, then it’s not worth people’s time. . .what a terrible system for dungeons.

I agree, OP. I find the people who demand to skip trash really obnoxious and I think it’s ruining the dungeon experience as a whole. I really like the dungeons in the game, and I have since the start, but the skipping of trash just reduces the dungeon to a speed run token grind, and that’s just a drag.

I also just don’t understand why the designers have done this, as in some cases, there is ALREADY a mechanism in the dungeon which would prevent some trash from being skipped. For example, at the beginning of Twilight Arbor, there are four mobs before the first boss (the flower plant whatever it is boss). There is a vine doorway there which blocks progress if you haven’t activated the NPC at the start. Why not just have this NPC do this after these mobs are defeated? I simply can’t understand it.

I’d really love to hear some comment from the dungeon designers on their philosophy regarding this part of the design, because it seems like it’s really working against the intended experience and breeding a culture of speedruns.

(note: turning off leashing of course would be another more standard way of doing this)

Hawken.7932:

Blackmoon.6837:

Lately it’s been difficult finding groups that actually want to run a full dungeon. Most of the time, groups are just skipping content or utilizing cheap tactics (such as stacking on each other to prevent damage). I’m aware that we should be reporting things like the stacking etc. but as for skipping content downright, isn’t there a way to prevent this?

I can’t ever seem to find groups that want to actually play out the dungeon in full, and it’s aggravating. It’s always the easy paths + skip and repeat for daily. Granted it saves time, but it also diminishes the value of tokens and loot. There has to be something you guys can do to break this conventional wisdom.

It’s even more frustrating because people are sticking to this mindset and now it’s even more difficult to get a group going for the harder and longer paths. If people can’t skip enough or if it isn’t short enough, then it’s not worth people’s time. . .what a terrible system for dungeons.

I agree, OP. I find the people who demand to skip trash really obnoxious and I think it’s ruining the dungeon experience as a whole. I really like the dungeons in the game, and I have since the start, but the skipping of trash just reduces the dungeon to a speed run token grind, and that’s just a drag.

I also just don’t understand why the designers have done this, as in some cases, there is ALREADY a mechanism in the dungeon which would prevent some trash from being skipped. For example, at the beginning of Twilight Arbor, there are four mobs before the first boss (the flower plant whatever it is boss). There is a vine doorway there which blocks progress if you haven’t activated the NPC at the start. Why not just have this NPC do this after these mobs are defeated? I simply can’t understand it.

I’d really love to hear some comment from the dungeon designers on their philosophy regarding this part of the design, because it seems like it’s really working against the intended experience and breeding a culture of speedruns.

(note: turning off leashing of course would be another more standard way of doing this)

I honestly don’t get it.

Can someone explain to me WHAT is so fun about killing trash mobs? I just don’t understand the fascination about it.

It’s not that killing trash mobs is fun, exactly, it’s just that killing them is better than the alternative for some people. Skipping enemies that are directly in your path is a pretty big immersion breaker, and it kills what little is left of the ‘roleplaying’ aspect of the game. Skipping them means admitting you’re not playing for fun, and that playing (at least in that specific instance) is a chore.

Sins.4782:

It’s not that killing trash mobs is fun, exactly, it’s just that killing them is better than the alternative for some people. Skipping enemies that are directly in your path is a pretty big immersion breaker, and it kills what little is left of the ‘roleplaying’ aspect of the game. Skipping them means admitting you’re not playing for fun, and that playing (at least in that specific instance) is a chore.

So when people were shooting for UW / DoA / FoW records and were spending more money in a night on consumables than your average GW1 player would see in their entire career, they were playing for what, exactly? I mean they sure as hell weren’t playing for the rewards at the end.

I think people like you just have to admit that fun is subjective.

The entire gameplay aspect is subjective. The trick is how to get it working so that all players can enjoy it just the same.

For some of us, this aspect is not just about the rewards. It’s also about the way we immerse ourselves in this fantasy. Some of us enjoy the idea of being a hero who can drop a mob of nasty foes, even without loot, and that’s good enough. Yet with the current system, and how many people are treating it, there’s just no room for that aspect without wasting time in trying to find groups who are willing to share that experience.

I don’t claim to represent everyone who kills ‘trash’ mobs, or even everyone who complains about people skipping them on the forums. I was merely explaining why I (and likely others) prefer to kill them. Some people would rather push themselves, while others prefer stable (repetitive) content. Hopefully, the next major dungeon update will clear most of this up.

No, you claimed I didn’t do dungeons for fun.

I do dungeons for fun.

Gab Superstar.4059:

No, you claimed I didn’t do dungeons for fun.

I do dungeons for fun.

And how exactly did you get that out of my post? O_o

Sins.4782:

Skipping them means admitting you’re not playing for fun, and that playing (at least in that specific instance) is a chore.

I don’t think that really leaves much room for misinterpretation there.

Personally, part of the fun in skipping mobs for me is in watching people fail the skips due to some random knockdown or whatever. I always find that amusing, even if it’s me.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

And lets be fair, would you rather be fighting Zhaitan with 5 people, or 50 people? What scenario seems like a more epic conclusion?

5 people personally. 50 for Zhaitan? Go look at Jormag and how “fun” that is for your answer. It is fun untill you realize that our combat system doesn’t really support mass PvE other than zerging.

I have a blast every time fighting Jormag with that many players. It feels epic.

I am too annoyed by content skipping that is ‘the norm’ in PUGs.

I believe this is mostly because:

a) it takes too long to kill trash
b) there are no rewards for killing often difficult to manage trash

I think most dungeons could use trash HP reduction. As of right now it feels like a chore, and this is why people skip it.

I think that-other-game had a very good solution to trash – all trash in the dungeons had increased chance of dropping high-quality loot AND it would not have leash points and would chase you forever once agro-ed.